SCENE SUPPORT PODCAST

Scene Support Podcast is a DCxPC Live interview series about the people who keep DIY music scenes moving. Instead of focusing on bands, we talk with promoters, labels, photographers, zine writers, venue workers, organizers, and other scene builders about the work that happens behind the scenes.

Each episode digs into how people support punk, hardcore, ska, metal, and underground music communities through booking, recording, documenting, writing, promoting, and showing up. This is about the people who make the scene possible.

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  • Episode 33: Arlene Vivar-Beairsto of Crystal Moon Public Relations

    Scott:

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and the venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of punk, hardcore, ska and metal shows. After decades in bands behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going. And tonight's guest is someone doing that work from a different, but just as essential angle. Public Relations. Tonight on Scene Support, I'm talking with Arlene Vivar-Beairsto. She's going to correct me later about getting that incorrect. Founder of Crystal Moon Public Relations, which she launched in 2022. Arlene's from the Bronx and she holds a bachelor's degree in mass communication with a specialization in public relations from Iona University. But long before Crystal Moon was a thing, she was deep in the DIY world. She found her way in organizing punk shows through Taking Back Queens back in 2014. A booking company based on all ages of Then, fuck yeah, thank you for that. Then in 2016, she took that same energy and booked a summer stage under the Taking Back Queens name with Punk Island NYC. After eight years of booking shows, Arlene noticed a pattern. A lot of newer bands were grinding hard, putting out great music and still getting bare because they didn't have PR support. or didn't know where to start. So she did what DIY people do. She built the thing, the support coming up artists need, while also helping more established names broaden their reach. Along the way, Arlene's worked with artists like MxPx Boy Jr, Tate Logan, and Ben Basile from Big D and the Kids Table, among others. So tonight, we're getting into what good PR actually looks like for punk and DIY bands, how she made the jump from booking to PR, and what bands can do to tell their story without losing who they are. How are you doing, Arlene?

    Arlene:

    Good, how are you?

    Scott:

    I am so excited to get to know you better. Like I feel like I have known you now like two years between bi-weekly Punk Island committee meetings and becoming weekly Punk Island committee meetings. you correct me if I'm using the wrong phrase, but I feel like you're the head facilitator in all these meetings.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, as of this year, I took over as the lead organizer for Punk Island. Yes.

    Scott:

    and you are so together. And I say this as a guy who's a teacher and event promoter himself, when I see someone who is organized and has their shit together, I am always so impressed. every time I'm doing the meeting, it's like, Arlene knows what they're doing. I don't know if you've ever read Robert's Rules of Order, but I feel like if you haven't, you could write it yourself. You know how to run a meeting. It's so amazing.

    Arlene:

    Thank you, thank you, I appreciate it. I try, I try really hard.

    Scott:

    It is evident, like you are so on top of stuff. So was it Antonio the first year that I joined that was running it? But you were so right next to him, it was like, and he's right next to you now. So it's like, I can't quite tell which one of you is inherently in charge because you work really well together.

    Arlene:

    Yes, yes, Antonia. Yeah, we do, we do. Me and Antonio have been working since I got to Punk Island in 2016. He's been there a lot longer than I have for sure. But we've built this report over the years and we've seen Punk Island grow like pre-pandemic and trying to get back post-pandemic and trying to help each other hand in hand to get where we are now. Definitely without him by my side, I don't know what I would have done.

    Scott:

    Every time I talk to him, same thing. So kind, so intelligent, like so creative. I mean, you two are like a powerhouse of people. Like, wow, the scene is so blessed to have you both. Real quick, since we mentioned Punk Island several times now, and some people might not have listened to my episode where I talked to the Lunchbox Stage, can you tell everyone right now what Punk Island is and why it is so fucking awesome?

    Arlene:

    Yeah, absolutely. So, Punk Island is New York City's only all ages DIY free, important free music festival. So if you remember like old school Warped Tour, all the amount of stages, we're like that, but Crestpunk Warped Tour. All the stages are on the floor. There's anywhere between like six to eight stages. We've had a year where we had like 10 stages at one point.

    Scott:

    Three. Fuck yeah.

    Arlene:

    So it's very community focused. It's very focused on the up and coming artists. For a lot of the bands, we are their first ever festival. And for me, it's a really big thing. Punk Island is giving music, music being accessible to all ages, which is really important personally, and being able to have a place for those artists that aren't of age that can't play in 21 plus venues, you know, or can't get, don't want to be around that kind of culture, the drinking and all that stuff, which is fine. So it's really important to have an all ages platform for sure.

    Scott:

    That really speaks to me, and I know I've said this before on the podcast, I grew up in DC. I've been going to shows since I was 15. DC, all the shows are inherently all ages, so I've always had that. I do work with venues now that are all ages, but it always kills me on the inside. And actually, even today, I had to tell a band that they couldn't play a show that I had booked in Brooklyn because one of the members is 20 years old, unless that member sat outside, which they're just not gonna do because the members have to drive like three hours. and I respect the norms to drive three hours to sit outside to come inside and play a 30-minute set. Totally respect to that band. I respect the Bar too. I get it. They have their own policies. But like all ages is just how it should be. But it is so hard to do and I thought it was the norm growing up in DC and then I moved to Florida and it was not the norm. And now I'm up here and it's still not the norm. So how did, I know how I came to it, right? Because that's like the DC culture. How did you come to the idea of all ages and how do you try, how did you try when you were booking shows to make that happen as much as you did?

    Arlene:

    Yeah, so I got really lucky growing up in the Bronx. We had, when I was in high school, we had the Bronx Underground. I don't know if you're ever familiar with the Bronx Underground. Okay. So it was like the early 2000s. It was a booking company that focused on DIY all ages shows in FLC, which is the first Lutheran church.

    Scott:

    Hmm, yep.

    Arlene:

    in the Locust Point in the Bronx. So was church basement shows. So I found out in high school, I started going to those and then I wanted to get really heavily involved. they had it packed. They were packed every show. They had their shit together. They were organized. They were good. And they had their volunteers. So I wanted to get more hands on. And I was luckily enough to find the Queen's equivalent to it, which is taking back Queen's. And my mentor, I don't know if you know, Richard Parker, who is sadly not with us anymore, but he was taking what Bronx Underground was doing here in the Bronx, well, in the Bronx, to Queen's and getting Long Island bands, Queen's bands, you know, in that area. So we had two kind of meccas in the boroughs of like DIY all ages. that are outside of Manhattan shows with all, which most of them are like bar shows, 21 plus or like Brooklyn shows. So he definitely started out with a smaller team. He was very hands-on. He was booking all his shows the same way Bronx Underground was, All Ages, DIY, know, trying to help any band that was passing through. Like shows were like $8. which was like so nice when you're broke, trying to get in there, trying to listen to music, trying to hang out with your friends. from there, I was able to learn the ways, start booking shows, making that the norm because of how he was doing it. know? So I got really lucky.

    Scott:

    Yes. So what was the first show you ever booked? Because I always love a first show story.

    Arlene:

    Okay, so I booked, my god, I don't remember all the band's names, but one of them was For Lack of a Term, who's a Yonkers band, and is actually how I met my husband. He was the drummer of that band. It was the first show I've ever booked. It was good, they kinda sucked.

    Scott:

    Ha ha!

    Arlene:

    They were so, they were so new. Cause their lead singer went to Iona with me. By this time I was like a sophomore in college. And he grinds great. I love him to death. He's like a dear friend to this day, but he was like a lot. And he's like, I heard your fucking shows. I heard your fucking shows. I'm like, yeah, I am. Can you fuck my band? I'm like, no. So I got whittled down to it. But. It was rough the first time seeing them play and it was a rough show overall because we were just trying to get everything together, running around, chicken without a head. But it was a lot of fun and now I'm married to the drummer.

    Scott:

    we drummers we are a special breed. My wife will tell you that I am a yeah drummers.

    Arlene:

    I definitely, because of that, became a roadie drummer just for him though. Just for him.

    Scott:

    Just for him. Yeah, my wife has never, even when my wife and I were in the same band, she barely helped me carry my drums. So, no. Yeah, it's okay. Her job was to come in and sing awesome and then go sell the merch while we carried our shit out because someone had to sell merch at the end of the show. And the person with that equipment is always the person that does it. It's not them being lead singer syndrome. It's like the rest of us have shit and you don't, so go sell shit. Right? It's just practicality.

    Arlene:

    Really? Aww. That's fair, yeah, yeah. That's how you do it. It is, So yeah, I mean, my first show was in Too Crazy. was in, like, I don't even remember the band. It was just so long ago. I feel so bad. But it was how, like, that's the big thing, how I met my husband from that show.

    Scott:

    Well, that's not a small thing at all. That's amazing. I did my first show. I don't remember the bands, but I did marry the love of my life from the show. Like, that's not a bad story.

    Arlene:

    You're right. I wish I could remember the other bands, I feel so bad.

    Scott:

    No, I get that, I get that. Like, I'm trying to think, like, the very first show I had ever put together. And I feel like when I was in a band in high school, I didn't put them together, or a lead singer did, a guitarist. But then, like, at one point, my other guitarist was like... This is pointless. No one wants to book us. No one wants to do anything. Nothing's happening. We should just break up. And I took that as like a challenge. And I like started calling places, like cold calling. And I booked us at like the Continental Restaurant of a Holiday Inn. And I told them that we sounded like Elvis Presley and like Chuck Berry. And we most certainly did not.

    Arlene:

    That's fucking awesome. And they bought it too.

    Scott:

    It was like, yeah, we played and it happened and we had a local metal band and my punk band and you know, maybe 10 people showed up because it was like it was even like 21 and up but like some high school kids showed up with fake IDs and this is such a fucking disaster but like that was my first attempt at booking the show but like it was all like It wasn't even me really booking the show It's just like me trying to get my guitarist not to quit. So I randomly like going that's it I'm gonna call places that I'm gonna lie It's like 1993. I'm like, I'm going to lie. There's no email to send them anything. They're just going to believe me.

    Arlene:

    Hey, you got a- I mean, yeah, I mean, they can't they can't look you up online at that time, right?

    Scott:

    Yeah, there's no looking up,

    Arlene:

    Fake it till you make it. And you did. And you made it.

    Scott:

    We did. And we got there and we didn't get kicked out. We were allowed to play. I mean, the bartenders looked non-plus to say the least. I can remember them looking like, what the fuck? Nobody's ordering anything. Bunch of high school kids playing. It was just such a...

    Arlene:

    You got through it. You did it. You played it.

    Scott:

    Such a fucking mess. We did, we did, we did. I was like, okay, I can do this, I can do this better. Okay, so I know you're doing Punk Island, but are you still booking shows or are you shifted entirely to PR?

    Arlene:

    I'm just so booking shows here and there. It's not my main focus right now. But I'm most focusing on PR. I do music PR and then other PR. yeah, sometimes I'll book out of Yonkers Brewery right now and help out my friend there because he's the main booker. dates need to be filled up, additional support. So I'll do that sometimes.

    Scott:

    I heard rumored that you were involved in some brewery somewhere, something in Hudson. Okay, is that it? Okay, I could have sworn to like a Green Goblin or something else or... Yes, yes.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Green Growler. Yes. Okay, so that too. So sometimes I'll book out of there. My husband's like the manager there. And they do all ages free shows up in Croton-on-Hudson. which is like Upper Westchester. Yeah, so we'll do some shows there every so often. They've definitely held punk island benefit shows for us. So Evans great. Definitely if you're into craft brewery, check it out.

    Scott:

    I am, I haven't even made it there for show. I wanted to, but it's always like, there's either another show already happening that I'm running myself. That's the problem with being in a band and doing shows, that there's shows you wanna go to and you can't.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, no, I totally get it. It's a lot. It's a lot.

    Scott:

    NX and Lousekateers so many people have said positive things about that place.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, no, it's a cool little spot. It's the fact that it's always free is always great, you know? Obviously, it is still a bar and you do get ID to drink, but just the initial coming in and the accessibility too, because it's literally a five minute walk from the Metro North, crowing on Hudson stop. So people from the city can come up. And I have booked city bands and I'm like, listen, you could literally see

    Scott:

    That's awesome.

    Arlene:

    the top of the hill, that's the green growler right there and you'll be fine. They're like, oh, okay, yeah. So it's like really accessible that way for city folks, you know, and you know, if you drive obviously too, they have a parking lot, right?

    Scott:

    I love it. Okay, awesome, awesome. Yeah, I'd be driving. I'm coming from Kingston area, so I would drive. So, okay, so you're doing PR, and I touched on it a little bit. What made you switch to PR? Can you elaborate more on what I said in my intro?

    Arlene:

    Right, Yeah, so when I was in high school, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do necessarily. And I was like really good at talking to people and somebody say, you should do PR. I'm like, all right, I don't know what that has to do with anything, but sure. And I went to Iona and Iona focused a lot on like entertainment PR, but specifically like celebrity PR or like.

    Arlene:

    business and sports. They were very heavy on sports. And at the time when I started out, I was getting involved with Taking Back Queens and music and all that. We didn't have like anything music stuff. So as I'm taking these courses, I'm like, how can I like merge my love and passion for music and helping out artists and PR? So I'm like, okay, can I do both everything in this world, you know, need some sort of public relations? So I'm like,

    Scott:

    you

    Arlene:

    I'm gonna do that. So I started trying to hone the skills that I learned in college to translate to the music aspect and started finding a community that is like, feel like PR is a lot of women-led industry. Yeah, so there's this Facebook girl, Facebook group, back when Facebook was bigger, Girls Behind the Rock Show.

    Scott:

    Mm-hmm. It does seem that way.

    Arlene:

    And they were like this very obviously women and POC and non-binary people focus collective that was trying to get resources out there to, hey, I'm doing this for this band, like I'm doing PR, or hey, I'm booking shows, or you know, some sort of the administrative side of being in the music industry, not just like, you know. like rock bands, other other type of music. So looking through that, I was able to see like, okay, there are actually people out there that are doing PR for rock bands and for punk bands and all this stuff. Like, okay, I have to get into this and started doing it that way. And talking to other bands and seeing, like, like, what do you guys need? how can we end? And I experimented a lot with my husband's bands. I'm like, okay, you guys are releasing an album? Great, this is your first album. Let's work together, let's do this, let's do socials, let's do starting to get press write-ups little by little and realizing, okay, this is all what PR is, so this is what I have to do, right? And I was lucky enough through that to be able to start interning after college.

    Scott:

    Sure, sure.

    Arlene:

    through this women-owned public relations firm called Whoa, That's Fresh Publicity and Marketing. Unfortunately, they're not around anymore, but that was my step into that world more professionally instead of just doing it to DIY bands. That's how I was able to work with people like MxPx. So I definitely try to...

    Arlene:

    grab everything I could from all these different points to start helping all the bands that I know, all my friends. Like, hey, listen, you gotta do this for your EP release. make sure you have your music video, your assets, you're talking to people about it, you're emailing people. I know it's gonna be a lot of rejection sometimes, or nobody's gonna bother to answer you, but you can give up. You gotta keep going, you know? And hopefully, that helped a lot of people, I like to think, of my friends. So that's where I was, I just like helping my friends, you know? They have banger music, why not put it out there?

    Scott:

    Sure, sure, sure. mean, so that's your main focus right now though. You still do a lot of PR, is that correct?

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I do music PR and then I like other forms of PR, you know. Yeah.

    Scott:

    know, PR to me is that really tricky thing, because I've hired PR people for my record label, and sometimes it's really successful, sometimes it's not. But it's like, well, I know they did the work. I trust this person I hired, right? But maybe the album just didn't land. Maybe we didn't do it with enough notice. Maybe you got drowned out by other releases. But it's like...

    Scott:

    Everything else you do is just like a concrete result. You book a show, the show happens. You know, I booked tours for fans, so was like the tour happened. You do PR and you might spend 30, 40 hours over the course of like, you know, two or three weeks and then nothing happens. Like, what would you do? like, well, I did everything I could. Like, how do you handle the idea that the outcome doesn't necessarily match the effort you put in?

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I always lead with expectations when I'm working with a client and I'm like, listen, I'm going to work hard, hit up all the contacts I have, tell them how great this release is, but I cannot guarantee anything. PR is never guaranteed, unfortunately. It's not about quantity, it's about quality, you know?

    Arlene:

    So we have to keep going, at it, making sure we're still hitting the same people up and down the line, something will come of it. Not as you might, and not might be right now, but something will. And I just want you to make sure that you know that I'm doing everything in my ability to get your foot through the door, but I can't twist people's arm. And I know it sounds so bad to have such low expectations about it, but it's the reality of the world. Everything's overly saturated. Like you said, there's like a million and one shows happening in one night. There's a million and one releases happening in one night. But just making sure that your release is getting in front of that person. Don't worry about it. They're listening in. There's way to track it all the time too. Like, this person opened my email. this person clicked this link. They're listening to it, right?

    Scott:

    Sure. Yep.

    Arlene:

    But you know, not everybody's gonna like your music and that's the sad reality of it. Or they don't have the bandwidth to do something, that is true.

    Scott:

    or that you set the bandwidth to do something, right? I mean, that's what it comes down to. Like I have three releases this winter and the spring, and like one of releases I've got in a video premiere, the other release I have podcast interview. I couldn't do both for both because the podcaster only has so much space and he's not gonna dedicate every podcast he does to me, right? Why wouldn't they? And then like the video premiere is like, yeah, well the other man didn't do a video premiere. it's...

    Scott:

    six of one, half dozen of the other, you're trying your best. like, I've gotten to the point now where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna hire PR for two or three releases a year because I do too many releases, let's be honest with you. But the idea is that it's gonna help me and that PR person I'm working with right now, I'm really working well with them, grow and...

    Arlene:

    Mm.

    Scott:

    you know, it's gonna get the labels name out there if you were to hear the label. I know, and you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but like, because I mostly do live albums, a lot of places have a blanket we don't even fucking touch live albums. Even though I think my live albums sometimes sound better than studio ones, there is such a really redheaded stepchild of music that people don't even wanna touch it. They assume it's like some guy with a boombox recording things off the side stage, you know, it's gonna sound like ass, and they wouldn't even let

    Scott:

    give it a listen so it's like I'm up against that and I explained that to the bands I work with them like look we're a live album at label so it's really hard to get people to even give it a listen let alone actually do anything about it

    Arlene:

    Right, yeah, no, it is, it is difficult. You do go in with that expectation that it is some guy just recording from a boombox. To be honest. But I mean, like, it's just the reality. You went in with the right expectation. Listen, we do live albums. It is what is. You do them great. I've heard them. You do them amazingly. There's no doubt about it. And then somebody's gonna listen to them and they're like, wow, this is,

    Scott:

    But we do them well. Thank you.

    Arlene:

    This is amazing! What else are they doing? You know?

    Scott:

    Yes. That's my hope. And I want to do one like, okay, well, this one wasn't bad. So maybe the next one is not bad either. It's building that reputational system.

    Arlene:

    being repetitive about it, being on people's asses about it, and being annoying about it until like, my god, you finally gave me a chance and you saw that I was right. And that's when I listen again.

    Scott:

    Thank you for that. So if you're doing an album campaign for a band, how many months out prior to the album do you start sending out press releases?

    Arlene:

    my god, months, months in advance. It really depends. How many singles you want to drop before the album? Two to three, okay, so like one a month. So I would say I need to start sending that album out five months out at least, at the minimum. As soon as I'm starting to...

    Scott:

    Two to three, I would assume.

    Arlene:

    Like it takes a month to get all the assets and all everything and start, you know, my pitches, my picking out the contacts, making sure all the contacts are still there. And then pitching out, as I'm pitching out the first single, I'm pitching out the album too. You know?

    Scott:

    And I think that's been part of, and I can say my problem, but I think even a problem in general. you know, bands or record labels, they'll use things like solid merch that can like do a pressing in four to six weeks without a test press. And as soon as a record comes, they want to start selling it. But like, no, you might actually have to sit on that for a couple months if you want to get the press for it. And they didn't get the press before they sent it to submission because they literally didn't have the art. Like the week they got the art is the week they submitted the record. So you couldn't even done a press release before they submitted the record. You know what I'm saying? Like, so you have to be willing to sit on a record and that's my 2026 thing. I have already sent to press eight records in 2026 that I'm just going to sit on and handle the fact that I'm sitting on this money that has been spent and I'm not getting anything so I can actually do proper.

    Scott:

    and hope that that makes the long-term outcome. I'm trading short-term goals for long-term goals, but it is hard to convince bands. Do you find it hard to convince bands to wait five months to start selling their record? Right? Okay, okay.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, yeah, you're preaching to the choir. Like, I have this, I've definitely gotten fans, or I have it like, I have this album, it's done, it's recorded. I'm like, all right, great. When do you want to release it? Like, two weeks. Excuse me? No, no, no. Do you have album artwork? No. Do you have like, do you want to do music videos of it? She's like, yeah, I don't know when. I'm like, oh my god. No, you gotta slow down.

    Scott:

    Getting them to do that is so hard. Like I've started doing album rollout meetings over Zoom and I put all these things in that I have a Dubsado meeting this Friday coming up where I'm like, I have to start organizing this and having these, because I'm sending constant reminders to bands. And I do split albums, so that means I have like eight people in two different bands and they all are decision makers and there should really just be one decision maker for a band. I don't believe in band democracies. Like one person decides shit, I'm sorry. For the sake of me. Like, how the hell does have to do with 10 people trying to make a decision here? It's fair. But it's really hard to convince bands to just wait.

    Arlene:

    That's fair, that's fair. Yeah, it is. It really is. They're very impatient and I feel, I feel bad but in the long term, it's gonna be worth it if you release everything properly. You know?

    Scott:

    Yes, it's even like I don't even really do digital distribution. Like I like digital in a sense it helps promote to the vinyl, because that's all I really care about. But like don't put the whole album out, put at least a single at a time, build it and then use the ISRC code. And yes, I know Spotify is the worst fucking monster out there, but it's not like Instagram and Facebook are owned by like really great companies either.

    Arlene:

    Mm.

    Scott:

    Right? It's I'm sorry. I am very big into biting the hand that feeds and using the systems that exist the best I can to improve the other systems that are out there. It's I mean, we all do that. Like I don't like the oil and gas industry and I drive a car. Right? It is what it is.

    Arlene:

    Right, right. You know, you're absolutely right. You really have to work with the tools and assets that are out there even though you don't want to. And you have to be patient. It's a long-term game for sure. And people don't understand that.

    Scott:

    They do not. So did you work with Ben on his solo album release? Was that you?

    Arlene:

    I worked with to get his EPK out there so he could pitch two labels. So I did the pre-pre-release, if that makes sense.

    Scott:

    But that's great, that's what got him on the label and got the record out. So fuck yeah, good for you, that's a great record by the way. Yeah, yeah. He is such a kind person. It's mind numbing how kind he is. Of course every now and then his twin brother shows up and I'm like, I thought you were Ben. He's like, no, I'm Ben's brother. I was like, I'm aware. And then I get angry that Ben's not there.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. It's so good. It's so good. Ben's so great. He's so nice. That's so funny. I actually met Ben at the Green Growler when he was like doing like a jazz night, a jazz night out of all. He does, he does. Yeah, he does, he does. But he was at a jazz filling in for this band and I'm like, you're Ben from Big D and the Kid's Table. You're doing jazz? You're doing jazz? Yeah.

    Scott:

    He does jazz every Tuesday in Poughkeepsie, every Tuesday. And you're just hanging out doing jazz. Yeah, you're I gotta be honest, the best musicians are jazz musicians. They are so skilled and it's, yeah, Wibflash is sad and amazing. I think the saddest music movie I ever saw that was the one where the heavy metal drummers going deaf.

    Arlene:

    They're very skilled. They're really talented. I've seen woodlash.

    Scott:

    I was sick in bed with COVID. This was back before like the vaccines even existed and I was a middle school teacher and I thought I was dying. I felt like my skin had sunburn all over the place and I was so miserable. And my little brother said, hey, this movie will cheer you up. And he sent me a movie about drummers losing their hearing. I was like, you do realize I'm a drummer. And that's like, wow, you're the worst brother ever. Of now I have the story to tell, so it's great.

    Arlene:

    He's like it could be worse. You could be losing your hearing

    Scott:

    You're be losing your hearing. You just feel like you're dying, it's fine. That's horrible, right? So do you have like tiers that you do? Do you like to do song promotion and tour promotion, album promotion? Like what is your process? Like if I came to you and said hey, Arlene, I've got a couple records coming out and I need to do some level of promotion on those.

    Arlene:

    That's horrible. my God.

    Scott:

    What is your approach? How would we talk about it? What's the deal?

    Arlene:

    Yeah, so it really depends what you want to do. Do you want to do like a full album promotion? Are we just focusing on singles? Are we, cause I could do tour press, I've done it. It really depends what you want to do with your albums first and foremost. And then from there we would create a timeline together. What is realistic?

    Scott:

    I love that word realistic. Setting expectations is so important.

    Arlene:

    It is, it is, it really is. People are just like, yeah, I'll take your album, let's go. That's it, la la la la. No. We are going to set a realistic timeline. It is what, March? We're gonna release this album in what, let's say September. Okay, great. I'm gonna take all of March to prepare. What is it? April is gonna be our first release. May is gonna be our second release, know, depending on how many releases, right?

    Arlene:

    booking and we're trying to get interviews, we're trying to get premieres, any sort of coverage, hopefully some play listing for specifically like publication play listing. Spotify playlists hate PR people. So I can't put you on Spotify. That's all you know right now. Spotify hates us. So yeah, any interviews and not just like regular music.

    Scott:

    Yes.

    Arlene:

    PR, like music interviews, I like to also go into like who you are as a person, who you are as a band. like, I definitely had a lot of bands that are really into like Magic: The Gathering, comics, and we've gone on those geeky podcasts to talk about like their interests and see them as a person and besides just being a band and then like, also I just released this music, you should check it out.

    Scott:

    Fuck yeah.

    Arlene:

    Since I like Magic: The Gathering, you like Magic: The Gathering, you know? Now listen to my music, because these are a different audience that might not necessarily be there, obviously, for the music, right? But hey, I like this interview, I like this band. I'm going to check them out, because they like the same stuff that I do. So we're definitely trying to hit different angles besides the typical music PR landscape.

    Scott:

    Sure, sure. I like that outside the box thinking because people do have multiple interests and I found access points that occur in unlikely places and unlikely times and you never know quite when it's gonna happen. You just don't know. Like I was at a Chamber of Commerce breakfast and this elderly woman was like,

    Arlene:

    That's fair, yeah.

    Scott:

    Do you know Run-DMC and Agnostic Front? My nephew is doing something with one of the members of Run-DMC and Agnostic Front in a couple weeks. Would you like to hear about it? I was like, yes. Yes, I would. Tell me all about this in the Chamber of Commerce meeting you octanagerian who I am no longer thinking anything about other than like you look like my grandma and you're like my nana.

    Arlene:

    Yeah! That is so sick. What? Yeah!

    Scott:

    Right? Like, how does that happen?

    Arlene:

    That is so cute though. Like yeah, you know when they see an agnostic vine? like, yeah, how do you know agnostic vine? Yes. Wow, that's pretty cool. And aw, she's a little old lady.

    Scott:

    How do you know them and why are you putting them together? Like that's amazing. I was like, I was like, oh, except my nephew is working on it. I was like, oh, OK. I think your nephew's probably like my age.

    Arlene:

    I love that.

    Scott:

    But you say it as if he's like a little boy and I was like, I love this.

    Arlene:

    I love that. Yeah, you just have like the most random connections sometimes that just because of like interests that you randomly have. And it's nice. It's nice. You it's just there's depths to people obviously. So there's depths to your music. It's not just about yeah, this is my song. It's about XYZ. Listen to it. That's boring.

    Scott:

    And that's what I like. So I struggle to like, know, bands want coverage and I get it. And I used to use sites like MusoSoup and SubmitHub and I even wrote for them and actually I love the fact that SubmitHub in particular, I got paid a very nominal amount of money but I met a lot of great bands. And it was great. Like I think that's like our first ChumHuffer through there, things like that. So like great bands, but it's like... Half of the people that are on there are such shite. Like their websites are just shite. Musosoup especially, no offense, sorry Musosoup, I'm just gonna say it out loud for what it is. But like, you're literally like this bullshit.

    Scott:

    Pretend blog you're just throwing shit up there You don't get any traffic and you're literally just like charging bands $10 for review and all you're doing is copying and pasting the press release in there and it is just utter shite and Bams will want me to do it. I'm like, I'm not gonna give you feel-good pieces Like I won pieces, because I can track when those pieces turn into people coming to the website and ordering the record, or at least checking out the website. If we never get any traffic from those websites, then they're not websites of any value to us.

    Arlene:

    Right, right. Which is why I public relation is about quality. Not over quantity. Exactly. Like yeah, sure. Throw your shit on SubmitHub. Have like 30 different websites. Copy and paste the press release that I spent time writing. right, here's like 30 links. Cool. But then what about the other websites that are actually sitting there?

    Scott:

    Quality over quantity. Yes, it's fine.

    Arlene:

    analyzing your music, going track by track, reading what we had to say about each track, and there's like, I really feel the emotions in track five. I really understand the storytelling in track seven. You know what I mean?

    Scott:

    Yep, I get it. And like when I did reviews, I did it like that. It would take me an hour. to review one song, which is why I never felt bad. was like, yeah, they spent three credits. It means I get a buck 75 out of this. So I'm getting a buck 75 for an hour. Whereas if this was 1985, they would have had to mail me the seven inch. And I at least would have gotten the seven inch to listen to and had like a physical thing. Instead, they don't even send me the MP3 to like download. it's, I'm like, I'm writing it. And then I posted it on my blog. And then I'm sharing it on my social medias. Like it's easily 90 minutes of work to share a song.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah. To do it well. To do it well, to do it with passion. You know, all the cross promotion on all your social media, Instagram, if you're doing TikTok.

    Scott:

    To do it well. To do it well. I did TikTok too back then too.

    Arlene:

    you know, that's video that you're sitting down, you're editing, you know. Yeah, it's a lot of work. It is, it totally is. And then it also goes into like, okay, great, you have that quality work. Bands, you should share it because somebody like took time out of their day to put in that effort for you. And then they don't share it.

    Scott:

    It's a lot of work! and bands don't share it. What the fuck is that? I would even send them clips, video scrolling up and down. I would send them screenshots. like, hey, here it is. Here's some shareable social media content so you can share it. I'm also gonna share it. I'm gonna invite you to collaborate. And they wouldn't accept the collaboration. like, I don't understand. You asked for this. And like. I even had it about my thing. I was like, look, I admit that this came from SubmitHub, but I don't review shit. don't like saying I got time to like give out shitty reviews. Like I'm so if I'm reviewing this because I authentically like it.

    Arlene:

    Right, right, right. You took the time, you took the time, your energy, you know, time is money.

    Scott:

    Yeah. I mean, I'm a busy man. I'm a busy man.

    Arlene:

    You are a busy man. Like, come on. The fact that you took the time and you listened and you stood there and you're like, I actually like this. This is great. I'm going to spread the word about it and there don't share it or be like, my God, thank you so much. You know?

    Scott:

    And a lot of bands did, like ChumHuffer did, The Snorts did, Nihilaros did. Like can name any number of bands that did. You know, Scott Helland, Guitar Warrior, you have one. Like a lot of great bands did, but it's like...

    Arlene:

    There's always the one or two bands that they're like, okay, great. Where's the link? Thank you.

    Scott:

    You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and then of course, if you're reviewer on SubmitHub, if you say no to someone, you have to write like a paragraph explaining why you're saying no, which in and of itself is an effort.

    Arlene:

    That is true. I didn't like your music.

    Scott:

    Yeah, I can't just say I didn't like it. I'd be like, I found that your guitar riff did not grab me in my soul to compel me to write this. And I said that because that's what people have responded to mine before.

    Arlene:

    That's wild. It didn't compel me to respond.

    Scott:

    Yeah, yeah. Yes. And I was like, fine, whatever. Didn't compel you to respond. Like, I feel like you just wrote that in chat GPT and it's fine.

    Arlene:

    Can you please write a professional and nice worded rejection? Thank you.

    Scott:

    Exactly. And then I'm going to copy and paste it every single time I reject somebody. Same rejection every time. I was not compelled by your music.

    Arlene:

    Yep, yep, you can, you can do that. Yeah, but it's so important to keep this like ecosystem going of putting out great music, putting out great reviews, making sure everybody's working together. Cause you know, that person's, you're probably going to hit up that person again down the line for your next release, you know?

    Scott:

    So speaking of hitting up again, like there are some people that I hit up regularly that I know I tend to get a response from and if I don't get a response it's not personal. It's either busyness or professional taste like Loren from Scene Point Blank. He always does his best to cover my stuff, at least give a new shout out if he doesn't give a review which I really appreciate his kindness. Are there...

    Scott:

    Websites zines blogs that you think are your go-to places that you feel like the people that are really responsive and kind that you that you would mind sharing

    Arlene:

    Yeah, see in point blank is one of them. you said, Punknews. think he's, from Punknews. She's great. She's great. I've definitely gotten things from, what was it? New York, state music. I know you remember, don't know that one. I don't, I don't think they've ever put a name on their email, which is fine. what else I'm trying to think. there's a bunch. There's a bunch.

    Scott:

    Em's great. I love Yes. I don't know that one.

    Arlene:

    Those punk Punknews my favorite. Em's great. Love her. Chris from Crap. What is his? Yes, thank you. In effect. Yes. Chris is great too. Yeah.

    Scott:

    Punknews is great. Love her. Is it In Effect? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Chris is great from In Effect. And I mean, no disrespect to BrooklynVegan, but they have never responded to anything I've ever said ever in five years.

    Arlene:

    I will say BrooklynVegan has responded to Punk Island. Punk Island stuff. They love Punk Island stuff. Yeah, they're always there. Thank you BrooklynVegan for coming.

    Scott:

    Yeah. you're punk island! Everyone should. And I said no disrespect, I get it, you I'm not offended, I'm just never, and I'm like, it's okay, like I said, live albums, you might just go, live album, go away. It's fair, it really is.

    Arlene:

    That's rare, that's rare. No, I've only gotten, I think I've only gotten like a couple releases to them, but mostly, always 100 % Punk Island and they're always for it. I'm like, okay, great. Love that. At least you're very consistent with one thing. Yeah.

    Scott:

    Yeah, it's okay. I mean you do the things you appreciate and I totally get that. So do you do all the PR for Punk Island? Is that your role as well?

    Arlene:

    That is my role as well. do all the... I love Punk Island. Punk Island's my baby. I definitely seen it grow to like how it was pre-pandemic. It was awesome. And then having it to grow it up again post-pandemic has been a labor of love. Labor for sure.

    Scott:

    my God, you do too much.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, but yes, I do PR as well for Punk Island.

    Scott:

    Okay, wow. Do you have a stage for Punk Island 2?

    Arlene:

    I do, I do. So, pre-pandemic, I used to do it under the Taking Back Queens banner. And then after my mentor Parker passed away, I was doing that for a while under his banner. But then I started doing Crystal Moon PR and then having two different identities was kind of confusing.

    Arlene:

    And he's always said in the past, like, you know, you don't always have to do Taking Back Queens whenever you want to grow up and grow out of it. I get it. So by the time I started taking Crystal Moon more seriously, I'm like, yeah, I think it's time to let the TBQ banner arrest and transition into the Crystal Moon PR stage. So yeah, I had my first stage as Crystal Moon last year, the year before I needed a break. of just focusing on administrative stuff for Punk Island. And now I'm back as a Crystal Moon stage this year with Insecurity Hits as a way to transition Insecurity Hits into their own stage down the line, like a mentor-ish kind of thing.

    Scott:

    Can I just say that was beautiful on so many levels? No, that really touched me. It's like I was...

    Scott:

    I was both touched by your mentor's word of kindness and advice and how you were able to take them and you said they passed away, right? So you were able to take what they had said and then use it for like your own emotional growth in a positive way. Like that's a really beautiful story. You've told so many beautiful stories. I'm like, I met my husband and I did this. I worked with this wonderful person who gave me permission to grow and become my true self.

    Arlene:

    Thank you, thank you. Yeah, no, I was really lucky to be able to meet a lot of great people in the DIY music scene in New York, for sure. And I think it definitely brought me out of a dark place in my life, like going into college not knowing what I really wanted to do and being kind of depressed about it and meeting these people saying you could melt your passion and your career together. and keep going and hopefully bring some sort of positivity to your local community for sure.

    Scott:

    And I love the whole pot, you're trying to bring positivity to the community, because that's what it, man, punk rock with our community is just garbage. mean, what would it be then? I was like, I don't even know, it's my family. If it's not my family, then it's just me going bowling with a bunch of random strangers or something. Bowling Alone is the Robert, what was his, Robert Frank? Whatever the guy's name was, there was a book came out in the 90s called Bowling Alone, I was like, yeah, I don't wanna do that.

    Arlene:

    It's so true! Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it definitely is about community and I love it. I love being able to have that community behind me, especially like I went to Catholic school my whole life.

    Scott:

    Yeah, I saw you went to Iona and that's a Catholic school and I taught at a Catholic school which as an atheist is a very tricky thing to do.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, no, kind of turned me a little bit of like, an atheist. I was very like, I wanted to be a nun at one point in elementary school. And then I'm like, no, I'm done. Yeah. Yeah. But being able to, like I said, have that support system or find that support system, find your chosen family. Like, don't get me wrong, my parents are amazing. They're very supportive. They come to every punk island they can. Do they like the music? No.

    Scott:

    Yeah. Sure. I love that.

    Arlene:

    But they're there.

    Scott:

    That sounds like my kids, right? My daughter was like, hey, I got a band playing Buffalo and the day I have to help you drive your car up to Buffalo that your grandma's giving you, you wanna go see the show with me? like, I really don't like your music, Dad. And I was like, but you can hang out with me. Like I'm driving six hours and we can hang out for the next like, if you really want me to. I was like, no, I want you to have a good time. I don't want you to come and be a sad sack. Like. If you can come and have a good time then yes. So like, well can I drink? I was like, you're underage. She's like, I have a means of getting it otherwise. I'm like, yeah, but I booked the band there and it's a venue and it would represent me poorly if I had my underage daughter drinking. She's like, I get that dad. I was like, so you won't come if you can't drink and I'm not winning you drinks so you won't come. She's like, no. I was like, It's like your music isn't good enough. was like.

    Arlene:

    That's fair. Damn. Damn, that's cold.

    Scott:

    It's truth though, right? Like, she's not like, I appreciate her like, not faking it, I guess. She's honest.

    Arlene:

    she's honest. She sets her expectations.

    Scott:

    Yeah, she's very clear. She's like, if I like something, I'm literally gonna do it. like, if you really want me to do it for you, I will. And I was like, no, I've always been one of the people that like, I only want you to come in if you're gonna enjoy it as much as I am. Because if you're not, I'm gonna look at you expecting you to enjoy it, and I'm gonna see you pretending. I'm gonna tell you you're pretending, and it's gonna take my enjoyment down. So I'd rather you just don't come then. Like, it's okay. If you can't fake it, then I don't wanna, yeah.

    Arlene:

    No, it's totally valid.

    Scott:

    Yeah, you know, now if I'm playing, you should come and sit in this audience and I don't have to, like, and I don't know. It's like when I've seen your thousands of plays that you've been in that sometimes you're good at and sometimes, well, some plays are worse than others. And I've sat through them three times in one weekend. if I, yeah, exactly, now you can sit through mine. You can sit through mine. Like, it's only fair. You gotta do it. Yeah, you just gotta sit through me too.

    Arlene:

    Now you have to sit through mine. Yeah, no, I respected, I respected. I like that. But she was clear with her expectations.

    Scott:

    She was, she was, she was a good kid. I love her dearly. But I get it, it was just, when she was younger, she would come to shows and saw merch for me and everything like that. And then she got older and I was like, no, this is all garbage. And I was like, it's fine. Younger kid, not much better. She's into K-pop, which is fine.

    Arlene:

    Aww, but that was so cute!

    Scott:

    But I bet she did come to one of my shows that was an all-ages show recently and there was a band called Cellmate and her and her three friends loved the singer and met her and like got t-shirts and stuff like that. was like, there's hope. There's hope. It's like just this, just a smidge and I was like that's one time. One time when she's 15 I can just keep building the seed.

    Arlene:

    There is! I love that! I love that for her. Yeah, yeah. So now a band is similar to this band and then just keep booking those out, those bands, and it matches out.

    Scott:

    Exactly. I'm pretty sure female-fronted BIPOC is what she's gonna be into. Because she's multiracial herself, she's a singer, so I think seeing someone up there with an Afro and singing and playing that, like, I don't think she sees that very often, so I think that really, you know, I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, speaking of representation,

    Arlene:

    Okay, cool. Yeah, you need representation in the scene for sure. I love it. I love that.

    Scott:

    Do you take that into consideration through your PR or are you just kind of open to everyone? I know through show booking I try and maintain a certain amount of representation so I'm not always putting straight white cisgender males up there on stage every time.

    Arlene:

    I definitely, for PR, I kind of take everyone, whoever wants to help, I'm willing to help. For Punk Island specifically, I do try my best to have more, I'm Mexican, I'm Mexican-American, first generation. So I try to have a lot of Latinx bands in my stage as much as I can get.

    Arlene:

    that I genuinely like their music for sure. So I take that into consideration more when I'm trying to book out a stage. Obviously I still have, you know, my husband's a cis white male so.

    Scott:

    I get it. get it. of, so did you listen to Altercados? So they are from Costa Rica. They are a DCxPC band actually.

    Arlene:

    I didn't.

    Scott:

    They, did, there's a zine called Punk Rock Mag from Costa Rica and I've done two splits with four bands, two bands on each album with Punk Rock Mag of Costa Rican bands. I haven't reached out to them because like that's my struggle is that I'm sharing this lunch box stage with Mike and I don't want to like only book. bands on my label, because there are lots of bands on my label that I've applied, and I'm trying very, very hard not to be like nepotistic, nepotism, ne... Yeah, you know what I'm saying. I'm like, if I wanted to, I could book only bands over DCxPC Live and have seven bands for my half, and I'm like, I don't want to do that.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I'll check them out. Definitely send me a link about them.

    Scott:

    Yeah, definitely check them out because they are great. So, you know.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I love having that representation. I definitely think we need to keep going. You know, we like to be diverse at Punk Island. I think we're as diverse as we could possibly be, you know?

    Scott:

    I think it's more diverse than most places where I go see shows.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I agree. I agree. I definitely agree. think Antonio is also Hispanic. So we're lucky to have a lot of Hispanic representation, Black representation. So we have all colors of the rainbow in Punk Island for sure. And like I said, one of our mission statements is definitely try to be inclusive to all.

    Scott:

    Sure, yeah. I mean, Nate has his sister Rosetta stage and which, you know, that's great and everything. So, but that's, you know, that's kind of one of the things I do as a booker is like, you know, I want to make sure that if I can, you know, I have a queercore band up there and I've got a BIPOC, you know, band and, but I also try and do diversity in sounds like ska, emo and thrash metal all in the same, you know, night, cause I don't want to hear one night of all thrash metal.

    Arlene:

    No, I love a mixed battle. I love a mixed bill for sure. I do. I do.

    Scott:

    Thank you, thank you. I get so tired of like, my gosh, look at that, five hardcore bands playing hardcore with breakdowns at the third verse. Every time I was like, I just heard five of them.

    Arlene:

    No, I do. think that you should, there should be more mixed bills. Make that more of like a norm than just say, okay, I'm in on a yay.

    Scott:

    should be. Exactly, right? It's like, I'm gonna mix it up. And it's weird, because I do some shows and they wanna bill it as punk night. I'm like, yeah, you can wanna bill it that way, but it's not gonna be strictly just that. Because I like more than one thing. I really do. I'm just more broad-based than just one particular thing. So I wanna hear more than one thing in a four-hour, five-hour period.

    Arlene:

    Me too, me too. I mean, that's how my playlists are. know? Yeah, you have to be diverse, for sure. I appreciate that. like a good mix of stuff. And I think a lot of bands are trying to be multi-genre now. And I like that a lot. There's a lot of bands that are doing like, cumbia. I don't know if you ever heard of cumbia, which is like...

    Scott:

    Right? Yes, there's a No.

    Arlene:

    It's Mexican, Central South American type of music, dance music. And there's a lot of punk bands that are starting to implement that in Latin America. Yeah, so it's really good. Actually, no, you definitely have. Do you know Depresión Tropical? Yeah, they have a little bit of gumia in there.

    Scott:

    Okay? Fuck yeah. probably just didn't know the term behind it. I'm sure I've heard it. It's like Maafa of how they mix in all those Afro-Brazilian beats and their stuff, which I just absolutely love. And I was like, that's how it.

    Arlene:

    That's what it is.

    Scott:

    should be like it should just be you know like in DC you know I'm a little bit young for having Go Go Bands playing next to hardcore bands but the legacy of that endured through DC the idea that that Go Go Bands and hardcore bands would be playing together at the same shows like you know why not

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're here to be entertained.

    Scott:

    Yeah, we're here to entertain. So when you're doing PR, and I say this like, I just recently released a record with two queercore, trans-fronted bands, and I was in a band with the lead singer of the one band in the past, and they didn't want to make it inherently known when they were in band with me that they were trans, because they didn't want that to be the message of that band.

    Scott:

    When you work with bands, do you ever have bands that are like, it's just like, no, I really want you to make our identity, whether it's our gender identity or our racial, ethnic identity, like center, or do you have bands that's like, no, we'd rather have the music be front and that stuff kind of be discovered as people discover the music, or is it a balance between the two that you normally have people push towards, or what do you see mostly?

    Arlene:

    I've definitely seen a lot more bands being open and putting themselves out there about their gender identity and this is our music, we're queer. This is our music, we're POC, you know? I think it brings a more depth to the band and you kind of need like a pitch, you really need a hook to get people interested. Because like I said, I'm looking for bands that are POC, Latino, you know, that's what I'm looking for and sometimes the music might not reflect that.

    Scott:

    that. Like, as a promoter, can be hard because I had a band called Jaelyn from Philly.

    Scott:

    like a progressive metal band. Think like Queensryche with Coheed and Cambria. And the lead singer, they're a transgender individual. And they were actually suggested to me by women of the pit because they said they were having struggles getting shows because of their gender identity. They're like, reach out to Scott. Scott'll help you. So I helped them and I was booking up in Troy at the time at El Dorado and I couldn't find any bands. that fit within that same identity. I was trying to build a supportive show effort because it already told me that they felt that they were not getting support. I wanted to make them feel more supported and not just book them with three cisgender bands. I wanted to try and find it. And it was really hard because bands...

    Scott:

    on their Instagram and I was new to the area. I'd literally just been here for like six months, eight months. So like, I don't know bands well enough. was like, I don't wanna just email a message to them and say, oh, it looks like you're a trans queer band. know? It was more like, was like, hey, I'm booking this trans-fronted metal band. And that was like enough of, to me, a qualifier, at least so I can know that they're allies at the bare minimum. But it's a real struggle when you don't know.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott:

    And people ask, like, I'm meeting with the Queer Collaborative Method next Monday. And one of was like, can you bring a list of like queer bands you work with? I was like, you know, I don't even know all the bands that I work with that are queer because not every one of them states it openly. Or they have a queer member, but it's like, you know, it's not so out there that I like, I just know. You know, I don't make assumptions about people's gender identity or sexuality if I can help it.

    Arlene:

    Once I did Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that. definitely respect that and people being comfortable with how much they want to share for sure. And there are a lot of bands that are like, yeah, we're queer, we're here. We're proud of it. And that's great. And there are a lot of kids that are and I say kids specifically because, you know, we're up and coming bands, kids that are starting their own bands, being in the DIY, looking for somebody to look up to that. is a reflection of themselves, you know? Which is, like for instance, which is why it's so important for me to have some sort of Latino representation, because emo, punk, was such a cisgender, white male-dominated industry.

    Scott:

    I'm aware. Sorry.

    Arlene:

    valid. So it's like really important and yeah sure some people aren't comfortable being out there with their sexuality and I respect that and I don't want to make people uncomfortable but the reality of the situation is like you know I want to be the role model for what I was looking for when I was younger you know sometimes you just have to put yourself out there and you're gonna be a little exposed but

    Arlene:

    Maybe you're helping somebody down the line that you didn't know you were helping for being so... your true self, you know what I mean?

    Scott:

    and that's my personal favorite. I love it. Like I just had Pucker Up! here recently from Scranton, Pennsylvania and they had the punk is black t-shirt and Mike like I said, my daughter is multiracial and I got her that shirt and she absolutely loves it. She loves it. So it's like, okay hasn't seen the band yet, but I played her. ever heard their song Creole.

    Arlene:

    love it.

    Scott:

    and has a whole thing about not touching her hair and my kid used to have a t-shirt that says, don't touch my hair. He was with me at restaurants and people would start petting her all the time. I was like, don't touch my kid's fuckin' hair. She's not a Chia pet. yeah, no, yeah. Crazy shit people would do.

    Arlene:

    my God. That's wild. People are weird. No, don't touch me. No, no matter what. No, that's gross. No. Right? No, that's crazy. No, ew. Yeah. It's really important. I think so. I mean, like I said, very male-fronted. I didn't get a lot of representation, especially growing up as a Mexican kid in the Bronx. Who's emo?

    Scott:

    Yeah, it's like, why are you touching my kid? I was like, who are you? I don't even pet someone's dog without asking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

    Arlene:

    growing up in Catholic school? Yeah, no. Yeah, it was hard.

    Scott:

    get it, I get it. I remember, you know, in the early 2000s, you know Flora, right? Flora from The Singer of Maafa Yeah, so I played her 16th birthday show when I was 25. Right, so I got to know Flora forever. Watching a black Brazilian...

    Arlene:

    I'm sorry, what? Yeah, yeah, I love Laura. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott:

    woman who hung out with the oi skinhead crew. And was like, that had to be a difficult situation for them to be in to find a way to fit into that culture.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I'm sure, yeah.

    Scott:

    So, like, I was like, even in DC, a city that is predominantly black, the punk scene was still predominantly white.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, that's how it is. That's how I was in the early 2000s. Everywhere, everywhere. The only thing that was... Although in Mexico, I will say, there was a lot of punks in Mexico. For sure. There was so much show that there used to be when emo started coming around. There was in the... I want to say the early 2010s, specifically in Mexico City, there was a battle. Sounds so stupid.

    Arlene:

    There was like an ongoing battle between punks and emos saying I'm no yeah it was like so bad like I swear to god I would see it because my parents watch Univision like Univision the news channel and it was like about kids coming out as emo and punks and beating each other up because they were doing each other's aesthetics I'm so serious I'm like my mom was like it is emo are you emo and I'm like yeah

    Scott:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop.

    Arlene:

    But I'm not beating other kids about it. That's in Mexico. Totally different.

    Scott:

    beating other kids up. Your emo, you don't beat up things you cry.

    Arlene:

    No, I'm sorry guys look this up online the emails versus punks wars of the 20 times in Mexico City

    Scott:

    I don't even know how to respond to that, right? I graduated high school in 95. So like, if you had mentioned emo to me in 95, I would have said Rites of Spring and then maybe like Sunny Day Real Estate. Like that would have been my idea of emo. And like emo existed for me in the 90s. And then whenever emo became in 2000, I'm I don't recognize what this is. And like the idea that there were emo kids, when emo joined the National Lexicon and like my mother knew what the phrase was, I'm like what the fuck? Like she still does know what straight edge is, but she knows what emo is.

    Scott:

    has been around longer than emo and I'm like how did this enter the world that I live in and like yeah my older kid will use it as derogatively as she'll use the word as furries I'm like be nice

    Arlene:

    I was in the, I was in the email. It was in a phase, I swear. It was in a phase. For sure. And my parents saw it. They were concerned. They saw the wars.

    Scott:

    So. Are there a lot of emo bands still today? I asked because I'm literally like, I just told someone that I think I have an emo band on my show this Sunday. They're like, what do they sound like? was like, they sound like what I imagine emo bands sound like. Because I don't listen to lot of emo bands.

    Arlene:

    I mean, that's fair. I don't know. I think it's, there's not anything new that's emo that's been on my radar. That's been the old, old emo, know, my cam.

    Scott:

    cough Yeah, it me of like what I imagine someone who plays emo punk rock together. Like it's not pop punk, it's definitely got what I would, like there's just melodies in there that sound emo-ish to me. It's not emo-ish. So you mentioned my chemical romance and you had mentioned genre earlier. I to say, if you're around in like a month in April, I'm bringing Meow Meow to the gutter bar and Meow Meow's a queer band.

    Arlene:

    That's

    Scott:

    that mixes classic rock, folk, emo and punk together. Saxophone. The last time I saw them play I told them that I had a new name for their style of music and I called it No Genre. Post, no, post-genre, post-genre. Post-genre. I can't really define it, it's totally...

    Arlene:

    Ooh. Full genre. Okay, okay. Okay, post-emo? I don't know. Post-genre? I gotta listen to them. I'm so curious now. It's just the fact that they're like emo with a saxophone.

    Scott:

    Post-genre. Post-genre. Yeah. Emo with the saxophone and there's just a lot happening there. The guitarist obviously loves Queen and My Chemical Romance. Big powerful riffs, you know, but then like soft gentle music and whaling sax and...

    Scott:

    Fast-paced things and they even do like some drama like they played a show With the metal band once and they feel like they didn't fit in so they wrote a metal song where the saxophonist pushed the singer off the mic and threw down her sax and Started doing metal vocals, but there was a whole acted out scene and it was it was just it was amazing. It was amazing

    Arlene:

    my god, have to listen to them. have to look them up. It was Meow Meow. I definitely have to look into them. I can't fully wrap my head around them. I feel like it's one of those, like you gotta see them.

    Scott:

    you really just have to see them. It's really hard to define, but I love them because I never know what I'm gonna hear every time I hear them, because they have a large enough set of music that they can put a different set on every time I see them.

    Arlene:

    That's pretty cool. That's pretty good. That's hard to do, you know, and not always getting the same thing from the band. You know, always a new experience. That's cool. I'll definitely check them out.

    Scott:

    Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So what would you say is the hardest part about doing PR?

    Arlene:

    hardest part about getting the band organized.

    Scott:

    Hahahaha! Sorry, you're literally speaking to me right now.

    Arlene:

    Lake. Getting the band organized. don't think so they don't understand like it goes back like I need all these assets Like what am I supposed to do? Here's a song there you go. La la la no Like I need more I need a quote. need what were your You know a description about the track a description about the album like I don't know what goes on in your brain I can't I don't I can't read your mind, you know

    Scott:

    I need you to tell me this. I'd be like, what do you mean you needed a blurb? What's a blurb? I was like, it's like a two or three sentence thing. And I was complaining about what you're complaining about. Complaining's not the right word. I was agonizing over how hard I wanted to help this band and I couldn't get the assets. And Eva, she's a bartender at Snapper Magee's where I do shows. She looked at me, she's like, you know Scott, they got into bands to play music. not to fill out your spreadsheets or fill out your Google Forms. Like no one said, ooh, I wanna learn to play guitar, so I'm really good at Google Sheets. And that's like.

    Arlene:

    That's fair.

    Scott:

    you're the one trying to do this, it's on you. And I was like, that is true. No one ever said I want to be in a band to do all this stuff. But someone has to!

    Arlene:

    That's fair. Yeah. Oh my God, somebody does have to, and I don't think they understand. Like, it's great. Yeah, write down your feelings. Make a song about it. Like, I respect it, but I need more. Like, I don't know, I need some depth in the blur. I need you to say more.

    Scott:

    where it's good to get one person in the band who's your band spokesperson that just handles this stuff. Right? Like I get it. You're all band. You're all democracy. You work together. But just get one person that you give them permission to make these decisions and allow them to make mistakes and correct it going forward. Because if they have to like answer every question by checking back with all other three to five members,

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna get anything done.

    Scott:

    You won't even get the name of a single. like, what single do you want to do? I don't know, I gotta check with the bands. I'm like, no, no, we're having this Zoom meeting right now to make these decisions. Like, it's on the agenda. I sent the agenda to you two weeks ago. You and your band were supposed to discuss it before the meeting. Oh, we're discussing it during the meeting. That sucks. It's supposed to already be known.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, you have to, it's just getting everybody together, getting everything organized, making sure you're on top of all of your deadlines. And it goes back to expectations. Expectations. How do you expect me to get this thing done if my expectations are not being done by you?

    Scott:

    Speaking of expectations, have you ever worked with bands and they're gonna put their stuff on streaming services and then their songs don't come out on time?

    Arlene:

    my god.

    Scott:

    You know what I'm talking about, right? And most of time it's probably because you use a crap thing like TuneCore and it's awful. I tell people not to do it. I've literally had songs take six weeks to come out after the date because TuneCore has decided that a totally original cover is copyrighted or whatever the issue is. like, I get it. DistroKid's more expensive. But the song will actually come out.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, no, definitely had that. I've definitely had to push deadlines. I've definitely had to push back premieres. And I'm like, I'm embarrassed because I have this rapport with this person. This person said, yes, I'll do this premiere. And now this band's telling me, yeah, it's not gonna come out until a week later. And now have to go back to this person and be like, I'm so embarrassed. I'm so sorry.

    Scott:

    Yes! Yes! That is awful.

    Arlene:

    That's one of the things people don't understand about PR too, is about relationships.

    Scott:

    It's all about releases. It's about, like I said, Lauren and I have hung out at the Fest. We've gotten to know each other a little bit. I had Lauren on the podcast. Same thing I had Lisa from New Noise on the podcast. And so when I said, hey Lisa, I've got a premiere for Cut-Rate Druggist is, can you throw it out there? She's like, yeah. And mind you, that's the first release I've ever had Lisa agree to do that with. But it's also my first studio release, because Lisa doesn't do live albums. But that's okay. But I had a different relationship. was like, with only two weeks notice, I built that rapport that they have the space to do it. I know Lisa will respond to me and let me know yay or nay. But because of the rapport building, taking the time, I've talked with her for three years, three years culminating in one premiere.

    Arlene:

    to get this yet. So got this, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what, that's also like what you're paying your publicist for, the relationships, the contacts.

    Scott:

    Yeah. It's the same thing like if you're a talent buyer or a booking agent. Like, you could email the same people I emailed to book a tour. But I've worked with XYZ Promoter how many times now? They know who I am. So I've helped them, I've helped their friends, bands in exchange. So they might be more apt to respond to me before a strange person.

    Scott:

    especially if they get 10 emails a day. It's just... yeah.

    Arlene:

    Hey, listen to my band. Hey, listen to my band. Hey, listen to my band.

    Scott:

    It's hard. I try and respond to every single band that asks me about a show. I try very hard to. And then I have a draft response from when I can't help them where I send them a draft and I like, here you go, I can't help you, here are three local promoters I know that could, and by the way, here is a copy of my spreadsheet for the entire of like, Northeast Corridor promoters that you can use.

    Arlene:

    That's great. Not anybody could do that.

    Scott:

    I take my Excel spreadsheet, I make a copy just for that band, and you can edit it as you want, it won't affect mine, and it's yours, just go with it. Why not? So, you remember, you know, Max and Rock and Roll, obviously, right? Okay, did you know that in the 90s, they published a magazine called Book Your Own Fucking Life? Came out once a year.

    Arlene:

    It's so nice that you're giving out your resources. Yeah. No.

    Scott:

    and you would pick it up at like your local record shop like Smash in DC or whatnot. And it would have a list of every venue across the country in every state. A list of bands that are willing to help you. A list of people whose house that you could sleep at. A list of coffee shops, vegan restaurants, record stores. And it was all like you had to call people, because it's all the 90s, right? But you could book a tour when this came out once a year publication. And then in 99 2000, it went digital.

    Arlene:

    That's pretty sick.

    Scott:

    and you would go to Book Your Own Fucking Life and I could put in Iona and I could put in promoter and it would list every promoter that they had that had like been enabled and you would click on them and you're doing everything I just said and it was amazing and then out of nowhere like 03 or 04 just disappeared forever.

    Arlene:

    Damn. You know, there's still one, there's DoDIY. Have you heard of DoDIY? It's the same, it's kind of the same premise, but it only focuses on promoters, any collectives, and festivals. DoDIY.

    Scott:

    Mm-mm. Okay, What I do is every three months I go through, so my Instagram, I have a huge number of people that I follow, but I only follow bands, venues, promoters, record labels, photographers, like basically things that I kinda like could help me or my bands later. And every three months I export out it and I go through it.

    Scott:

    I have a tab for bands, venues, promoters, record shops, zines, booking agents, podcasts, festivals, services to photographers, graphic artists. And I just put it in, and every three months I export it, and I just copy and paste it over, and I spend a couple hours on a single day going, I'm watching a repeat of a show I've seen before, and copy and pasting things in there, and it just grows.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott:

    And I share that with anyone that wants it. So if you're listening to this right now and you need it, just email me. I'll be happy to share it with you. I don't care. My wife's like, you should charge for that. I was like, why would I charge for something? She's like, you do work for it. I was like, yeah, but whatever.

    Arlene:

    I've seen it. It's a good resource to have. I've seen it. You do a really great work on it. Yeah. Yes, I have. I definitely have. Yeah. It's so extensive. It's crazy. And it's like so it's what you need as a baby band. Yeah.

    Scott:

    Thank you. Are you seated? So. Yeah, just gets you started, just go. And even when I'm doing PR, when I don't hire a PR person, I go through and I like know the column is like, like cut break drugists, I have their record coming out. I'm like, all right, on February 1st through 10th, I messaged all these places. And then yesterday I did a follow up with every one of them. Do you do follow ups? Like, do you come back? Yeah, so.

    Arlene:

    I do!

    Scott:

    That's a new thing for me. I've never done follow-ups before. So I'm like, I'm trying it and I actually got some nibbles today. So I'm like, follow-ups are actually, it's like, I'm not annoying them. Follow-ups are good, right?

    Arlene:

    Follow-ups are great. Yeah, it puts them on the top. It puts you on the top of their inbox because they're following up. Yeah, sometimes I'll do like maybe two follow-ups. Depends.

    Scott:

    Yeah. So, okay. Do you send the exact same message or do you send a specific follow-up message?

    Arlene:

    I send a specific...it depends. It depends on the command. It depends on what we're doing. I try to make it as personal as possible. For sure. So, hey, just following up on my message. Hope this finds you well. Or whatever else that we were talking about in that email. If they responded, if they didn't, you know?

    Scott:

    Do you have like a service you use or do you like I get your shot media sends me shit like every day But I feel like I look at it I feel like I'm just bcc'd about about with a thousand other people and that's fine I get it. It doesn't have to be like hey Scott. How you doing? But do you use some sort of email platform where you upload the addresses and it automatically separates it out and does an email mail merge and sends it? Or are you sitting there copying, pasting, and sending emails?

    Arlene:

    Back when I was at WTF we used to have like, I think it was Bush Stream? Which it used to do that. It had everything, our database and whatever. But no, now I just like manually send out emails like from spreadsheets. Like I'll write my pitch, like here it is and you know change whatever it is I need to change because if I already have like a relationship with that person, hey great seeing you the other day, whatever.

    Scott:

    Yeah, you try and say like, hey, I know it's been a hot minute, but I know you, not too long ago you reviewed this, I'll put the link in there and say, hey, remember you reviewed this album, I think you'll like this one as much as you reviewed this other one? Yeah.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, try to make it as personal as possible, for sure. Sometimes it's hard, I get it. It's so time consuming for sure.

    Scott:

    So that's. I was talking to a young, I mean, young, he's 21, like, right, essentially young, but like, you know, and I was describing it as like grinding in video games. Like, I don't play a lot of video games, but like, you know, back in the old days, like when I would play them, you had to go in the woods and you needed to earn points and you were chopping wood, and you were sitting there for eight hours that day chopping wood. And I was like, it's kind of doing that. Like,

    Scott:

    You're there just grinding away and you're just... Yeah, you're building up your XP points. That's literally all it is. Like, it's grinding.

    Arlene:

    Building up your XP points, yeah. Yeah. It really is. really is. For publicists, you're paying for their time. You're sending like 30 emails, 40 emails, you know, however emails you can squeeze into your day on top of your meetings, on top of your organization, on top of your research, you know, and on top of your relationship building, because like, I have to go to this networking event. I have to go talk to people. I have to be personable. I have to like look presentable.

    Arlene:

    And not look like a bum.

    Scott:

    Yeah, how much of your job is in person versus email and social media base? Like how often do you like actually interact live with people?

    Arlene:

    Anytime I go to a show, I'm always networking. Anytime. You just have to throw yourself out there. I know for PRs, it's such a face-first job. You have to be personable. I know I have a lot of imposter syndrome. It takes me a minute. It takes me a minute to start talking to people. I just have to get over it. You're talking, hey, how's it going? Your band was sick.

    Scott:

    We all do, I get that.

    Arlene:

    I really, really like it. You have an EPR, here's my card, my god, and you start talking, you you build rapport with the people. It really depends how much, you know, I'm going out or like going to like some sort of networking event, trying to really be more facing forward, be more in front of people, because yeah, it's easy to be behind a laptop, behind a computer, typing away, rotting in front of your screen. But you also really do need to build a report in person for sure.

    Scott:

    I feel like that's so much of everything to do with the community, right? When I moved to the Hudson Valley, I don't think I could have done shows from behind my computer. I had to go out to venues and meet the bartenders and talk to them and meet the promoters and meet bands. I had to meet RBNX and Holly from Outsider and Kev from Negative Raxxx I had to meet these people and get to know them and go, hey, I'm interested in what's going on here. How are things work here? Like, you know, where are the places that things have happened in the past that are happening now that haven't happened? Like, give me the history. Give me like, you help me. Like, let me understand what's going on, because I don't know them. I'm an immigrant to this area in that sense.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, no, it's true. You really have to put your best foot forward out there for yourself as a publicist and for your client, you know? For your community, for everything, everything.

    Scott:

    Do you send clients weekly reports? So I've had PR people that send me like every week they send me, this is what I've sent out, these are the ones that have responded. Or do you like not? Because I've also had people that have done PR for me and I just basically get crickets.

    Arlene:

    I try my best to be as weekly reports and as things come in. Hey, I just got this in my mailbox, here you go. But then I'll also put it in your report. So you'll see it again.

    Scott:

    When I share it, because I've done this before, but I'm getting the impression that PR people don't inherently want me to, I've shared like, bad copy or Punknews to the thing and I'll invite Punknews and bad copy to be collaborator. But you can have up to five, and if there's not enough people that I can think of, I've added the PR person as a collaborator. But they very rarely accept. Is there a reason for that?

    Arlene:

    That one, I don't know, think that one's just for like, depend to their aesthetic or their social, if they're social, their social manager or maybe sometimes their social media is just like at the tail end of their priority because they're sending out emails.

    Scott:

    Or maybe they have a thousand bands that they're working with that I don't know about and have they accepted everyone that have a thousand posted a day for all I know.

    Arlene:

    Maybe. Yeah, no, it really depends on the person. if I would always like, maybe send them a follow. Hey, just wanted to let you know I following up on my tag if you want. Hey, all cool if you're not.

    Scott:

    Collaboration offer hey Hey Yeah, know I'm gonna actually just plainly ask that's not come a shy person so How many bands you work with at one time do you like have a maximum amount that you feel like you would it's like You wouldn't want to email, I mean maybe you would. Like let's say you had three bands you were working with and in a six week period they all had a release that was coming that you'd be emailing them like every like 10 days. Or do even them all, do one email for all three. How would you manage, mean, no, you're like no, that's a bad idea, I see your face. You're like no, no, I'm not gonna do three in one.

    Arlene:

    No. I would. So I think the max I've ever worked with was like eight bands at one point It really Depends so when we're like going back to expectations Talking about it when we're doing our timeline making sure that I I know where My timeline is according to their timeline. Hey, I already have a releases day

    Arlene:

    you know, being transparent, maybe we should do it this other day, you know? Making sure like, not that I want to be like a dick and be like, you're not the only one that I'm worrying about, but realistically, you know, it's my job, I have other clients and I'm prioritizing all of them as much as I can. So this is why we should move it. You know, some...

    Scott:

    I mean that makes sense. It's very similar to I just had an email with a band that you know we tend to say hey we're ready to move forward on this can we get it out by June is that realistic I was like I can probably get it pressed by June but I already have a release in June and a pre-order in June so like that would be three things in June and I'm really trying this year to like have no more than two major events per month a release in a pre-order like by two different bands is fine but like

    Arlene:

    Yeah,

    Scott:

    two releases. I mean, because I already do shows and I do the podcast. I'm like, I'm already social media like all the time. Like I. Yeah. I'm already out there so much, which. Yeah.

    Arlene:

    Right. Yeah. Yeah, you're busy. It's great. You're busy. And you just have to be realistic with your timeline as well as their timeline. Because you also don't want to be making promises to these bands like, yeah, June's fine when in reality you have already two releases. It's not going be fine. They're not going to get the attention that they deserve. That's not fair.

    Scott:

    Yep, exactly. And I've shifted things, like, hey, I'm sorry we gotta move this, because I do have a band that is about to go tour Australia, and they need the record, and so, there's no disrespect to you, but like, you're not leaving your hometown in the next year or two, and this band is going to Australia and they need the record, so I've gotta put those out first.

    Arlene:

    Right, yeah, and you're being realistic. I want to give you the time that you deserve. You know, it's about expectations. That's the theme of the song, expectations.

    Scott:

    Yep. Yep. Expectations. You should literally, do you have an expectations sheet that you hand them initially? Like here's the expectations.

    Arlene:

    a little bit. It's more about like, this is everything I need from you. Like my expectations of what should be coming into my inbox from you. Like your homework, for sure. Yeah.

    Scott:

    Yes, your homework. It's a lot, right? But I appreciate it. The PR people that I work with that I've liked the most are the ones that are like, this is really what I need from you. was like, well, you're asking for a lot, so I'm expecting that you know that you're asking for it for a purpose. So you're not just giving me busy work. So if you need this, I believe you.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely is. It makes my life easier. I could get your releases out more organized for sure. It's about quality, quality, always about quality.

    Scott:

    Is this your full-time gig or you like me and this is your side hustle? Fuck yeah. Fuck yeah.

    Arlene:

    This is my full time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I do PR for bands. Bands are my passion, but I do PRs for other things. I've done for a beer collab. I'm doing it for a coffee shop. For sure. PR is a universal thing, for sure.

    Scott:

    I so stoked to know that. Wow, that doesn't, that just makes my heart go like this. Because so many of us in this punk rock world, we do the stuff we do and we do it on top of our other stuff. To hear that you're just doing the thing you do, I love that. For you.

    Arlene:

    don't get me wrong, I do still have side hustles for sure, but yeah.

    Scott:

    But this is your, but you're like, yeah. my God, I'm so jealous. But proud, I don't know, proud's not the right word. Honored and respectful. Somebody positive, take your positive word of choice and layer it over top of it. That's how I feel. I like, that's amazing.

    Arlene:

    Thank you, thank you, appreciate it.

    Scott:

    No, that is really, really rad. Like running your own business, doing what you're doing, being part of the community, doing it your way. That's fucking awesome.

    Arlene:

    I'm trying to, trying to, my best. Yeah, for sure.

    Scott:

    All right. Does your does your website have a pricing sheet or do you keep your pricing like you you ask and I'll send.

    Arlene:

    I don't have a website. It's so funny. I'm so bad at website. I need to get a website. You're absolutely right. I do send a pricing sheet out with everything, examples of my work, my experiences, links to like press I've gotten in the past. and then my pricing sheet back there and what it entails. And then definitely I can, try to work within your budget and see what we could do. Cause you might not need.

    Arlene:

    one thing and you might need another or a combination of the two, you know what I mean? Yeah!

    Scott:

    So like I'll card it making it work exactly for you. So if you're listening, I'm to be putting our leads information in the podcast description with us on the whatever streaming service or in YouTube. So you're going to, you're going to go there. You're going to go to Arlene's info. You're not going to go to the websites. They don't have a website head Instagram, whatever they're, whatever they got, link tree. And you're going to email and say, Hey, send me your pricing sheet because I need PR because I am in a band to play instrument and I have no idea what I'm doing. And I've been in a band for five years.

    Arlene:

    I'm sorry. Instagram.

    Scott:

    and nothing's happening because I like record a song on Monday and put it out on Friday and

    Arlene:

    in my head. Don't do that. Please don't do that. No, no, don't do that.

    Scott:

    You know, and it's funny, right, because like, it's social, online has made that a thing even, right? Like when I put out my first tape in high school, it was like 1992, 93. Well, first one I got it out, started selling it. What else was I gonna do with it?

    Arlene:

    Right, yeah, no, it's totally, it's valid, but I think it's really important to realize that the dynamics is changing, technology's here, it makes it really easy to put stuff out. Great, if that's what you wanna do, do it. But if you wanna be smart about it, you really need to think about how you're gonna put it out there.

    Scott:

    it makes it really hard to cut through.

    Arlene:

    Right, cut through all the other releases that's all... New Music Friday! It literally is called New Music Friday for a reason, right? Everybody's...

    Scott:

    Because there are so many. Yeah, yeah, I give a release rate on Spotify every Friday. You know, that's why I do all my things on Tuesdays. So I try and avoid the whole Friday glut. I have no interest in Bandcamp Friday. I've worked with girls like, oh, we need to take advantage of Bandcamp Friday. I was like, why? The day that every band in the entire world posted this Bandcamp Friday?

    Arlene:

    I'm on the spook, okay.

    Scott:

    And it doesn't actually lower the price for the buyers. It just said the bands get more money. I was like, is that gonna make me spend more money? was like, do I write like, I mean, of course I get it. I wanna help the bands. I want the bands to make more money. But the reality is I'm not sitting around going, oh, I really wanna get this two man advantage release, but I'm gonna wait till Bandcamp Friday to buy it. Maybe people are. Maybe I'm just a selfish dick.

    Arlene:

    Right, yeah. I mean like I wouldn't wait but you know that's like right yeah exactly for sure the internet makes everything easy I get it but you really have to take advantage of how you're putting what you're putting out there and how you're putting it out there for sure

    Scott:

    That's why, yeah, see, like it's gonna sell out like you want it now. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a length for press releases? I feel like my press releases have gotten ingloriously long.

    Arlene:

    One page.

    Scott:

    Yeah, it's about a page.

    Arlene:

    You need one page. That's all you need. Information. Here it is. This is what it is. A quote about it. Additional information about this band.

    Scott:

    Do you copy that directly in the email body or do you recommend sending it as an attachment? I feel like they don't want attachments. They want it in the email body. Would that be accurate? Yeah.

    Arlene:

    email accurate email body. I'll do my pitch additional information in the press release below copy paste the press release in

    Scott:

    So you do a pitch first and then press. See, it's just, you know, it's interesting. I don't know how all this works. It's really not my skill set. I'm helping a local venue in Kingston with like their booking, know, talent buying for lack of a better phrase. And they're like, oh, you've gotten more responses in a week than we've done in a whole year. I was like, well, I know how to pitch an email for talent buying.

    Scott:

    I know how to suggest, you're going on tour here and this is our venue, this is the capacity, this is what we generally pay. I know what booking agents want to see. I've dealt with enough booking agents. I've never quite yet figured out what a PR person wants.

    Arlene:

    Right. Yeah. It's more like a PR person needs to know what the writers want, not what another PR person needs. Yeah.

    Scott:

    Yeah, so what is it? What are the writers want? And then it can't be the same. It's like I feel like booking agents want to know size, money, location, you know, but like what what are writers want to know?

    Arlene:

    Like the basic information, the who, what, where, when, why. know? Like yeah, why, like, I feel like why do I care so harsh? But yeah, like the depth of the song, like give me a description, you know? And if they want more of, more depth, you could send them more stuff, you know? You can send them the track by track description.

    Scott:

    Okay, why do I care, right? Ha ha

    Arlene:

    Track one, track two, this is what they say, this is how I felt, this is what I'm trying to convey. But they want the basic information. Who's the artist, what's the song, when is it being released, it's about a quick line, it's about how I got dumped. I don't know, you know?

    Scott:

    Is it hard? to describe songs like I know when I was writing reviews sometimes I'd get I'd accept a lot in a week and then I'd get down to like my seventh or eighth one in a week and I'm like I don't have any vocabulary left to describe this like I've already used like all my really like ingenuity of thinking and I'm done and I don't want to use bus song guitars with gasoline gravel vocals like I don't want to go to the generic you know pounding drums like sort of shit I'm like but at a certain point it's like I have run out of adjectives

    Arlene:

    you

    Scott:

    I've run out of creativity like I need a brain break because I can't come up with a way to say how this stands out from the last fucking song I just reviewed

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you just have to step away. I know sometimes I'll ask my husband, hey, can you read this? You need like a fresh pair of eyes. Hey, do you have a word for this sounds great or whatever? Great, fantastic, wonderful. I don't know. You know, sometimes I'll go down and pick his ring because he is a musician too. So it helps to see what he's thinking about the song. But yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I'll just like, I need a minute.

    Scott:

    Yes.

    Arlene:

    I gotta go. I gotta close this. I gotta think about it a little bit more. You know? It's hard, yeah. There's only so many words to describe something.

    Scott:

    It's hard. Yep. And then like I'll even tongue in Chico like low key. is like I don't use the word low key. That's like my teenage daughters, right? Like I'm like, this slaps. I never say this slaps in real life.

    Arlene:

    This is shit. This is slaps.

    Scott:

    I mean dope rad I say that I'm like I don't say shizzle my nizzle like this is the shizz net it's not those are not my standard words

    Arlene:

    Thank You just have to plug words out of the air, you know? Yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do.

    Scott:

    Yeah, give me random words that people are using right now for things that are great throughout the current generation. like, okay, I'm gonna use this. And it's like, I struggle when I have friends that are my age. Like I I turned 50 in a month. They're like, that's totally fire. I was like, yeah, I don't think that works. You're 50 years old. You shouldn't say things are fire or lit.

    Arlene:

    my god. No.

    Scott:

    Like it's not, no it doesn't work. Don't say six seven, like just stop you're 50. Like I can say dope and rad because that existed when I was a kid. I'm still holding onto those. Yeah, know, dope, rad, sick, those are my words. I grew up saying those words and I'm gonna hold onto them till I die. But I'm not gonna pick up this new slang that isn't, generationally just makes you look like an old fart trying to say shit.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, no, for sure. I get that. I respect it. I'm not gonna... Yeah, no, I totally get it. I'm not gonna start using 6-7. I don't even know what that means to this day. I don't get it. I really don't get it. I don't wanna get it.

    Scott:

    No, no, no, no. I mean, I hear low key a lot. I mean, I will drive my teenage daughter and her like four friends in my minivan and I'm just listening to them and half the time they're just talking in weird slang that is totally cute and totally normal. I'm not dissing them. They should have their language. I respect it. Good for them. I have my language. They should have theirs. But it's like, like, that's totally aesthetic. was like, totally aesthetic. Something can be aesthetic, I don't know. The way they're using it is like, I don't think they're using the right form of that word, but that's okay. Yeah.

    Arlene:

    Like do whatever you want. No, I feel like sometimes like my Bronx will come out. Like I'll be, you know, that's that ass.

    Scott:

    Dead, yeah, dead ass. My older kid says dead ass all the time. Dead ass.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I'm like, who does that ask? Word? All right.

    Scott:

    Word? Oh, I grew up in the 90s. Word was a thing. I'll type word and I just think people look at me and it's like, who says word? Who is this like white dude that's 50 saying word? And I was like, well, I grew up listening to like Public Enemy in the 90s. Like my older brother was a big hip hop head like EPMD, the DOC, Big Daddy Kane, Redhead Kingpin. You know, punk and hip hop were rejoined at the hip as far as I was concerned in the 80s and 90s. I don't know how they got separated, but...

    Arlene:

    I know either. I remember there was like a lot of collabs when, who was it? Was it Public Enemy and yes, and Anthrax when they did the collab. I'm like, wow, that's sick. I like it.

    Scott:

    Anthrax, right? Yep. Have you ever heard the Judgment Night soundtrack? This is your homework tonight, if you accept it. So Judgment Night was a movie came out in...

    Arlene:

    No. Okay. I do.

    Scott:

    early 90s, mid 90s, and every song on the soundtrack has a rock band with a hip hop band. It's like Sonic Youth and A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul and Helmet, Onyx and Biohazard, like all these combinations.

    Scott:

    Cypress Hill and whoever it was. can't remember. I'm probably getting the artist mixed up, but every artist I've mentioned I believe is on there. And it's really amazing because for this brief period of time, it's like, we can all do this together. And then it just went away.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, that's so sick.

    Scott:

    It's like in the early Lollapalooza's I'm like, I'm at Lollapalooza. I'm seeing Dinosaur Jr. and I'm also seeing Cypress Hill. This is great. This is how it should be.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, I agree. I totally agree. think that was a good era to, you know, the combination, the collab, the cross promotion for sure. It was very anti-establishment at some point, anti-NORM, you know?

    Scott:

    Yeah, it was very much, was like the idea of going against the establishment, the idea of being an outsider. Hip hop was still not mainstream. My brother got made fun of a lot for liking rap, the same way that I got made fun of for liking punk rock.

    Scott:

    Like different ways, like, you know, I would get called the F word for my like multicolored hair and he would get called a wigger for being, you know, like, oh yeah, oh yeah, constantly. Yeah. And like nowadays, like you tell someone you like rap and hip hop, they're like, oh, that's really fine. And you tell someone you like punk rock, they're like, oh, like Green Day. was like, sure, like Green Day. And no disrespect to Green Day. It's just sure, like Green Day.

    Arlene:

    me. my god. That's so crazy. But... I green is great, I like them.

    Scott:

    Yeah, I will stand by them for one reason for my entire life. When I saw them in 94 at George Mason University and their big amphitheater where they had the basketball games and they played their 30 minute set and that's all they played, which is crazy because people like filled this place to see them play and they only played 30 minutes. The opening band they brought on that tour was Pansy Division. And I mean, you know Pansy Division like they are the gayest band I've still ever seen to this life. and they came out with like rock and roll queer bar, a Femina black leather jacket, and like were the butt fuckers of rock and roll. And it's 94 and I'm surrounded by a bunch of dudes. You know what I'm talking about, bros, basic chads, you know. And they're all there to see Green Day and like, you know, their white baseball caps turned backwards and you know, and then all of a sudden the gayest man in the world comes out and spends 30 minutes just hitting them with a

    Arlene:

    Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah.

    Scott:

    amazing pop punk tunes of sexual innuendo and it was so glorious and I went to school the next day and people are talking about it and like how horrible it was and they sang about sex I'm like, hey I was with an AC DC that's all they do is sing about sex like yeah, but it's different I was like, oh because it's straight people sex like And I didn't even have like real strong opinions on homosexuality at that point. I hadn't really given it a huge amount of thought, but I knew that I definitely didn't have a problem with it. And that people did maybe have even less of a problem with it. So Green Day did that. So that's it, fine. They could have chosen anyone to take across the country in 94. And they said, we're gonna take this band throughout the entire country and shove. Yeah.

    Arlene:

    shove it in your face.

    Scott:

    shove it in your face, which is amazing to me. It can still be problematic. You went to Catholic school, I taught at a Catholic school, having people come out as being gay at a Catholic school, and even in non-Catholic schools, it still be a struggle. But in the 90s, I still had friends that were hesitant to come out as that they were gay.

    Arlene:

    It's pretty revolutionary for its time.

    Scott:

    Yeah, it was brilliant. I don't care what their songs are right now. I don't care if they didn't sing the second verse during the Super Bowl. They did what they needed to do when it mattered at the time they mattered.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, I agree.

    Scott:

    They use the voice in the right way at the right time. So thank you Green Day for that. I will never forget you for that.

    Arlene:

    For sure, I agree, I agree. That is very accurate, that's why I love Green Day too. They're very in your face about it and they don't give a fuck.

    Scott:

    and my friend squeaky and Cut-Rate Druggist is she's like, yeah, they still come out to house shows to in Oakland Yeah, they'll come out and they'll watch like local bands and sometimes they like play a song but they're very innocuous was like Would you like us to play a song? And they just play like one song and be done

    Arlene:

    They do? That's pretty sick. That's pretty nice, it's so sick, my god.

    Scott:

    Yeah, but they'll come out and see like local bands and like just hang out and like kind of stand in the back and like not try and like be all like. Yeah, it's more like unobtrusively. This kind of come in. So.

    Arlene:

    I'm Green Day, la la la. Yeah, yeah yeah. that's cool, that's so nice.

    Scott:

    Yeah, so I respect that too.

    Arlene:

    Yeah, no, I would love all bands to do that. Just come in and hear from my... I grew up from the scene. I want to keep being in the scene and I'm gonna support it in the back.

    Scott:

    Yeah! It's like a 504 Plan. had there a bunch of kids that just graduated high school last year and I had their record release with the Black Cat in DC and Ian MacKaye was there and I was like, I'm so glad that Ian is here. And I was like, hey Ian, we met back in the 90s and I interviewed you for positive force for my high school paper. You don't remember me, but it's a pleasure to see you again.

    Arlene:

    That's so sick. So sick. Yeah, people should remember going back to their roots for sure. If they make it, they made it because people were in the scene. People were listening to their music when they were nobodies. They should keep supporting that. You know? It goes back to what I originally said, being part of a community.

    Scott:

    Huh! Yeah, so she should keep coming out. Yeah. That's. Yep, I think the two things that have come from you are be part of the community and set expectations. And absolutely positive attitude. Like you have, you are PMA all day. So, I appreciate you. We're gonna wrap this up, because I have kept you here for 90 minutes, almost two hours now. Over 90 minutes, holy crap. I normally don't talk for much more than an hour, but like I...

    Arlene:

    Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, appreciate it.

    Scott:

    I have sincerely love talking to you. It has been. My utmost pleasure. I repeat again to all listeners out there, I'm gonna put all of Arlene's information in the episode description. Please message them, get advice, get the pricing sheet, do some rad ass PR. If you enjoyed this episode, it's your first time listening or you're building time listening and you haven't followed us yet, please go ahead and follow the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, whatever the things you're supposed to do with the podcast. Please also check out Struggling Artist Record Club. Trev is my producer. He curates a monthly record box of rad ass punk hardcore and ska, sends it out to people. He has great taste because obviously he must because he is editing this podcast and why else would he do if he didn't have great taste? Check out his shit. also in the description. Thank you Arlene. Once again, it has been an utmost pleasure to have you and I am honored that you were on this podcast with me. Thank you.

    Arlene:

    Thank you so much, Scott. Thank you so much for your time, I really appreciate it and I'm looking forward to working with you more through Punk Island.

    Scott:

    Heck yeah. Good night everybody.

  • Episode 32: Broken String Booking Max Kozol

    Scott (00:17)

    Hey everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we’re here to give credit where it’s long overdue. I’m your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going, and today’s guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out.

    This week on Scene Support, I’m sitting down with Max Kozol, a Massachusetts-based promoter and talent buyer who has gone from booking her own band to helping keep the Cambridge/Boston DIY pipeline moving. Max started booking shows in 2022 for her now-defunct Massachusetts band Trophy Husband, playing bills with bands like Glare, Bonginator, Ski Club, and more across the Northeast. What began as the usual “Can you help us book a show?” favor for friends slowly turned into real work as she kept saying yes, learning fast, and building relationships.

    After finishing college, Max doubled down on the craft and spent summer 2025 interning at O’Brien’s Pub, a great venue, to get more focused on show booking and the day-to-day realities of running a room. As of January 2026, Max is a junior talent buyer at the Middle East Club in Cambridge, mainly running the front two rooms. Beyond that role, she shares work through Broken String with her buddy Colin McElhenney as a passion project for DIY bands, and she also runs sound at Warehouse XI. I’m super excited to learn about Max’s journey and the scene that she supports. What’s going on, Max?

    Max Kozol (01:40)

    A lot of hard last names in this one.

    Scott (01:41)

    A lot of hard last names there. I was a middle school teacher. I should do better at this.

    Max Kozol (01:45)

    Not much. How about yourself, Scott?

    Scott (01:58)

    I'm fucking great. I am so stoked to meet you.

    Max Kozol (02:01)

    Quick clarification, I don't own Warehouse. I just run sound here, actually.

    Scott (02:05)

    I think I just

    said, I said, she also runs sound. How dare you criticize me and my long rambling rant of rambling.

    Max Kozol (02:07)

    Yeah, okay, sorry, my bad. Must've misheard you.

    I'm so so so sorry

    Scott (02:16)

    No, no, no, it's good to clarify because I could have misspoken. I might have stumbled my words.

    Max Kozol (02:19)

    No worries.

    That's all good. I'm actually in Warehouse right now. Speaking of which, which is quite literally just a Warehouse.

    Scott (02:24)

    A rat!

    Just a Warehouse. And

    I won't be seeing it, but you, this is how we first met. I believe it was Mike from Lower World Booking put us in contact because I'm booking the Meow Meow Tour and you have very kindly booked Meow Meow at the Warehouse.

    Max Kozol (02:45)

    Absolutely, yeah. They sound awesome. I'm super excited to get to work that show.

    Scott (02:49)

    They

    are super fun. Their new songs are great. I haven't heard the final recordings yet because I tell them I don't want to hear them until they're finally final, final done. But I hear them live. I just recorded a live album for them the other week. So hopefully it comes out great because they have a lot going on and it's very difficult with the doing live recordings with bands with those sort of dynamics and the saxophone and the quiet voice parts and the loud parts.

    Max Kozol (03:04)

    cool.

    Scott (03:19)

    Luckily my sound guy is really good at setting up the room. He's like, I know you're used to standing here, but with this room and the way you perform, I've watched you before, this is going to capture the sound better, but still allow you to be who you are on stage. Just, just, just work with me or trust me on this.

    Max Kozol (03:34)

    What's the studio that you're recording that in?

    Scott (03:37)

    So everything is, everything I do is, a live album. So I record them at venues. So that was at Snuggs Harbor, New Paltz. I've recorded at Snapper Magee’s, Mr. Beery's in Long Island, El Dorado in Troy. And then, you know, I've done, when I lived in Florida, I recorded stuff down there. And you know, now that I have bands that are like in DC and Baltimore, some from there too. So it's kind of like wherever I can get a good trusted sound person that knows what they're doing.

    Max Kozol (03:51)

    cool, yeah.

    Scott (04:05)

    and can do a sound board where they get me all the stems and everything is properly mic’d versus just give me like a board recording where it's all vocals and you can barely hear things. So, but enough about me. People on this podcast already know who the fuck I am.

    Max Kozol (04:09)

    Mmm.

    Yeah.

    Hi there, sorry I'm just in a call right now, don't mind me. I'm not alone in here, don't mind me. But, so what would you like to know?

    Scott (04:23)

    Now that's okay.

    Well, I guess we just started in the very beginning, right? So I'm assuming you're just out of college. I didn't really get a chance to explore the trophy husband. I know you just mentioned you were in a metal band. So like, what brought you to music? What's your origin story?

    Max Kozol (04:40)

    yeah.

    Okay, whole origin story. My dad is actually a big inspiration for me when it comes to anything related to music. He was really big into drum corps. Specifically, he marched in the cadets, in the bushwhackers. He did a lot of teaching as well. If somehow you manage to still have VHS players, apparently somewhere in the Library of Congress, he made the video on hand cymbal technique which...

    Scott (04:57)

    Okay.

    Fuck yeah.

    Max Kozol (05:13)

    doesn't matter anymore because they don't use that anymore. Yeah. cool. Awesome. Yeah. he... What's the rule on swear words in this podcast? shut the fuck up then. So he... don't know then if you might, if you're a drummer, does the name Dom Famularo ring a bell at all to you?

    Scott (05:17)

    But I love that. I'm a drummer, so that makes me super stoked. Not a good one, but I'm a drummer.

    throw the fuck away.

    hahahaha

    It's probably for drummers that actually like have technique and study stuff I apologize like when you mentioned like marching was like I wish I had done marching band in high school because then I would have better technique I can always tell when a drummer was like look at the way they hold their sticks Look at how tight the rolls are. That's a motherfucking drum line guy right there. You can just fucking tell

    Max Kozol (05:44)

    Well, that's okay.

    Well, my dad... I've worked with a few of them. my god, did they hit hard. But my dad studied with him and then after him and my mom had me, I was about three years old when they got me my first drum set, actually. I started on drums and then later in life moved to bass, which I just felt a lot more connected to. like...

    Scott (06:02)

    You can tell a marching band drummer.

    Mm-hmm.

    care.

    Okay.

    Max Kozol (06:27)

    having the ability to combine rhythm and harmony, I guess. It's also just really fun to just play really beefy notes. So, went to college, I went to a music school that must not be named because I don't want to name it. it's, one can only guess, in Boston somewhere. In that college, I was one of those...

    Scott (06:30)

    Sure, sure.

    Fuck yeah.

    One can only guess.

    Yeah, I know, right?

    Max Kozol (06:57)

    most notoriously heard of Berklee bands, Trophy Husband, not the band being notorious, just a Berklee band being notorious. We started off doing like the whole Berklee sound jazz, funk, fusion kind of thing, and then branched off to still keep it instrumental, but trying to go more for like Animals as Leaders and all that progressive stuff, which was pretty cool. It was definitely a very big challenge and very fun. And the thing that made it very serious for me,

    Scott (07:18)

    Okay.

    Max Kozol (07:26)

    was actually trying to book us shows, because I had never done something like that before. We were just randomly getting asked by our friends, like, hey, do you want to play a basement here and there? Places that aren't around anymore, if there's anybody from Boston listening, like Rock Bottom or Wonderland were two of the big ones that I definitely remember early on. And as time went on, I was like, hey, I want to play more shows, but no one else is really taking the initiative. So I just kind of went for it.

    Scott (07:55)

    Yes.

    And that is invariably what happens because I was in a very similar situation from like 16 to 20. For the most part, my band's always just got asked to play shows and every now and then I'm you have a dry spell. better start booking them myself. I'm like, I want to go out of town. Well, how do I go out of town? was like, well, I offered a book, another band to show. Like, I mean, I probably even in my message that I sent you were definitely the one that I've sent Mike and everyone else. And mine was like, I'm booking a show for XYZ band.

    Max Kozol (08:04)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Right.

    Scott (08:25)

    and I will offer to do the trade back and book you in the Hudson Valley, you know, give it enough time. You know, I will do my utmost to book you a show in exchange because that's how even now at 50 years old, that's still how I booked because it's the way that makes the most sense to me is community building.

    Max Kozol (08:29)

    Yeah.

    And I love that because honestly, Boston's scene is a very messy one, especially as of late. So giving the opportunity to get these bands out of here to explore more of the Northeast, I think that's amazing to try and actually make a name for themselves, especially like, I think Upstate New York has some of the coolest music I've ever heard actually.

    Scott (09:04)

    Yeah, the Hudson Valley up into the capital district and then all the way even further up into like Buffalo. There's just so much rad shit in this area. It's pretty phenomenal and it can be, and like I'm one of those people that like a broad array of music. Like I'm not just a hardcore kid or a ska kid or whatever. Like I really like a lot of different stuff. And there's a lot of different stuff going on here. So whatever, if you are 32 flavors and then some, you're going to love the Hudson Valley.

    Max Kozol (09:12)

    yeah.

    Scott (09:33)

    If you only want to hear grindcore, you're going to be in some trouble because there's a lot more happening.

    Max Kozol (09:33)

    Awesome.

    definitely. I've definitely seen a lot of stuff and a lot of friends had out there and I made a lot of friends actually from all over that scene as well. I ended up somehow accidentally just booking Trophy Husband like three or four tours over the span of a few years just because I felt like being in unnamed music school was just not getting me and the rest of my friends really where we were trying to get.

    Scott (09:54)

    Wow. Just because.

    Max Kozol (10:06)

    I kind of, grew up wanting to go to this unnamed music school thinking that it would, you know, help me become the musician I've always wanted to be.

    Scott (10:16)

    You're

    the third or fourth person I know that is either currently at or has graduated from unnamed school.

    Max Kozol (10:22)

    Yeah. And look, don't get me wrong. I've made some great friends and met some amazing professors at a certain school. But I, at the same time, feel that the Berklee bubble is a real thing. And I also understand that Boston is a transplant city, which is very unfortunate because it does kind of put this air of power over the actual local music scene.

    No, no, go ahead.

    Scott (10:53)

    No, no, I can see that, right? Because like having been on tour most of my life and you know, hit the lower 48 for the most part and like Europe and stuff, scene to scene things are just dramatically different. And if you think your world is all you have, it's, it's, it's whether it's music or anything else, you've got to get outside of that sphere. You know, I was talking to someone today. I was like, when I grew up in DC and I was getting my poli sci degree, you know, I was like, Oh, you go to a bar and you have like a

    Max Kozol (11:14)

    Yeah.

    Scott (11:21)

    a libertarian talking to an evangelical Christian, talking to a transgender gay Unitarian minister. And we're all hanging out, having a great time. And I get down to Florida and I mentioned one those like, we don't talk politics. I'm like, what do mean you don't talk politics? That's like, what else are you going to talk about? I don't understand. Like y'all don't like music down here. So like, what do I got? I was like, I don't understand. So I mean, they do like music, but like just the world is different in every place you go, both musically and socially. And you've got to get out of just that one, like

    Max Kozol (11:29)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yes.

    Scott (11:49)

    the atmosphere of a said school or said city. I'd like to think that Boston is big enough that you can have pockets of things. And it's just whether you can cross those scenes or not, or you have to stuck in your one scene.

    Max Kozol (12:03)

    It's becoming significantly harder as time goes on, but we'll get there. We'll totally get there. Basically, the long and short of it is Trophy Husband was a very fun time. We played all over the Northeast and then the time passed. I started another band for a brief period of time. It was a metal band called Longest Leash. And after that ended, it was just, you know, I was doing all the bookings and I always wanted to just try and book at home base.

    Scott (12:07)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max Kozol (12:34)

    I love traveling, but it's exhausting. And the idea of being able to just do something here in this city that I've seriously grown to love, it's just, it's awesome. It's magical. And especially because everybody who I've ever met and worked with here has just so much passion in their heart to just make music and to make a scene.

    Scott (12:58)

    Yeah, I I think you and I first started chatting on frigging New Year's Eve and I'm like, what is this person got going on? And they're like, they're just chatting away with me all night on New Year's Eve. I was like, I know I got nothing cause I said I'm 50 and I don't go out to parties. And I was like, I was like, I'm pretty sure this is a young person and they're just hanging out, like chatting over this show with me for like at least a good hour, hour and a half back and forth. And I was like, I love their enthusiasm. This is, this is going to be a great person. was like, this is gonna be great. I was so stoked. I was like,

    Max Kozol (13:03)

    god.

    Scott (13:27)

    That's the fucking way to start the year right there. Done.

    Max Kozol (13:30)

    Thank you so much. And I don't know, I'm just excited. You know, having a life is not really for me. I just like to go to shows and do anything related to shows. That's literally all I do.

    Scott (13:40)

    You and me both.

    Okay, so you're like, okay, booking on the road is hard, not only because I'm booking it, but I have to go on the road and live on the road. And I get it, living on the road is difficult. Not everyone's built for it. I've been many a band where everyone thinks they want to be on the road and invariably use one member's like, this is not what I want to do. I could not do this six, seven, eight weeks a year. Like this is just too much for me, which I get. Totally understandable. So now you want it to book at home. So.

    Max Kozol (13:55)

    Yeah.

    yeah.

    Scott (14:11)

    Tell me how you started becoming a localized home booker.

    Max Kozol (14:16)

    Sorry, repeat the question one more time, I'm so sorry.

    Scott (14:18)

    How did you

    establish like, okay, I'm gonna be a localized home booker. I'm just gonna book here. I'm gonna get this position. I'm like, I am going to be the booker at X venue. How'd that happen?

    Max Kozol (14:29)

    So, at first, I just wanted to try and book consistent shows. That was my first challenge. I had been doing it so much for myself that I didn't get enough experience doing it for other people except for the occasional show. For a brief period of time, actually had... Since you're in New York, I'm sure you've heard of Rockwood Music Hall down in the city. They, for a very brief period of time, had a branch up here in the Fenway area near the Red Sox.

    Scott (14:50)

    Yes, of course.

    Max Kozol (14:58)

    Park and That's where I was booking quite a few shows. I maybe had a lineup of like 10 or 11 going within two months before the venue shut down And then I took a long break from it when I came back to it and this was like over a year and a half ago I was just like I need to finish school done and I reached out to I literally just like

    Scott (15:10)

    Okay?

    Max Kozol (15:27)

    nothing's gonna come to me, I just need to send out anything. And I just send out a note to a couple different music venues that I already love, I've already been to quite a few times and I just wanted to do more at. And luckily the guys at O’Brien’s, Tyler, who is an amazing person, Tyler Hallett, love him so much, amazing music taste as a side note, which makes sense as a talent buyer, but like this guy like...

    finds diamonds in the rough so easily. He was willing to take me under his wing and let me learn from him, which was awesome. I had a basic understanding of a lot of the things, but he really helped me delve more into the nitty gritty and work on deals, work on setting up bookings in my own time, filling in any open holes in the calendar. And as time went on, I started just...

    I just happened to start getting people who noticed my shows and were like, hey, we're touring. Can we set up a show here?

    Scott (16:29)

    Awesome. So when you book your shows, do you book them under Broken Strings every time or are you the talent buyer at O’Brien’s and Middle East? Because I talent buy at another venue, but when I buy for them, the shows are for that venue. But I'm also my own promoter and sometimes I bring shows, but I keep those emails separate and I keep that world separate.

    Max Kozol (16:44)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Yeah, so when I was doing the O’Brien’s thing, any shows that I specifically was trying to set up were all under Broken String. But like a lot of the time, there were bills that just weren't finished and needed an extra band or two, so I'd be doing the outreach to try and finish that up. Those were all specifically under O’Brien’s. And I'm still working with them, not on the same capacity, just because now I'm getting another million emails and everything else because I started working at the Middle East.

    Scott (17:20)

    Yeah. So like, I'm just trying to like envision what you're getting because I get more emails and messages than I think I can sometimes handle. And I'm for lack of a better phrase, a secondary market, right? Like I'm a small Hudson Valley town off of 87. Some people have never even heard of Kingston or New Paltz It's like, you know, bands from Baltimore and we we exist. And like as someone who books tours for bands,

    Max Kozol (17:28)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (17:46)

    It was like, I want to play Philly. I want to play Pittsburgh. I want to play Boston. I want to play New Haven. Like, you know, there are other towns outside of those that are great to play.

    Max Kozol (17:57)

    And also, you're probably gonna perform way better in those secondary markets first.

    Scott (18:03)

    Yes. And, but like, because of that, you must get bombarded with messages. And I'm pretty sure it like, I don't care anything within the area is fine. I was like, I just want to show in Massachusetts, Eastern Massachusetts. Like I was very like, I am not going to get picky and say, no, it must be in this zip code or else.

    Max Kozol (18:09)

    Mmm.

    I don't really do a lot of tour booking anymore. I had friends who were asking me to set up their tours for them and I did that for a little while, but I found that honestly to be more frustrating for me. So I have a lot of envy for you being able to handle that.

    Scott (18:43)

    It's, it's difficult and I'm not sure how much I'm going to keep doing it for as many bands as I've been helping. And I think it's mostly frustrating because not every promoter is someone like you who will take the things and, and find the other bands and fill out the advanced notice for me with a reasonable amount of time. Like I have at least two shows on Meow Meow's run this was one seven day run.

    Max Kozol (18:49)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (19:10)

    but like that I've had to find all the local bands and I have to do the group chat and I have to do this and I'm like, I don't understand like how am I the person having to find the people I'm not there.

    Max Kozol (19:14)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I got a lot of that too when I was doing the tour booking stuff. It was a nightmare for me. I mean, you know what? The cool thing is it definitely helped me understand more of the markets. I don't really like to think of myself as a booker or a talent buyer. I like to think of myself as an Instagram stalker. Because there were many a late night I would spend up in bed scrolling through my phone seeing who follows who and where they're playing.

    Scott (19:44)

    Ha

    You and I are like kindred souls. So if I haven't shared it with you yet, I can. So I've gotten like, they're like, wow, you follow 6,000 people on your Instagram. I was like, no, no, I follow 6,000 venues, bands, promoters, record labels, record stores. That's all I follow. I very rarely follow actual people. And then every month I export all the information of Instagram and then I transpose it over to a spreadsheet. And I do this every month.

    Max Kozol (19:56)

    Yeah.

    wow.

    Scott (20:24)

    And then as someone comes to me and they need a show and I can't help them or they're like they're on tour, I'll make a copy of it and say, here's your copy. It's you can edit as you want. It's you're to want to affect my original. If you, if you need another one again, come back to me in a couple of months, it'll be updated again. And I just keep adding bands and promoters and record labels. I now add podcasts and zines and festivals, like everything in the frigging world. And it all goes back to like when I was younger than you.

    Max Kozol (20:33)

    Yeah.

    That's amazing.

    wow.

    Scott (20:52)

    And Maximum Rock and Roll used to publish this magazine called Book Your Own Fucking Life. And it came out once a year. And you'd go to the fucking record store and they would have it. And it would have, people would put their names in there for you to stay at their places, where to eat, where to get coffee, where to book shows. And that's back when you had to call everyone, because it's the 90s. And then when the internet hit, went online. BookYourOwnFuckingLife.com. And you can go there and you would drop down.

    I want to play Iowa and you would hit Iowa and you're like list of venues and would pop down. It's like this is amazing, but it only lasted like a year or two and it disappeared. And I'm like, why doesn't that still exist?

    Max Kozol (21:27)

    Ugh, that sucks.

    It's so hard to maintain because it's all just information and there's so many new things coming out constantly. Like the fact that you are keeping this sheet updated, your sanity must be very thin and I respect you for having it in the first place.

    Scott (21:46)

    It's it's I sit

    down I put on a TV show or movie I've seen before and I just spent a couple of hours clicking it over and then when I go to book a tour if the link is dead, I just delete it and move on

    Max Kozol (21:56)

    Yeah.

    And also, sure, I'm certain you're not the only one who's doing this kind of thing as well. There's like Global Rock Underground and the DIY Discord server and even like the Get to the Gig, which is more localized to Boston. They still are helping out all the touring bands as much as they can too.

    Scott (22:14)

    yeah, there are so many people doing this work. Like in my

    area, there's people like Kev who runs like wrenches, bottles and rockets, rocks. And like, you know, he does his thing and then like, was it, Holly from outsider magazine, she does these free, all ages, VFW hall shows. I'm sure she has her database list of bands and everything. So everyone's doing it. I think the problem is we've all moved to Instagram and there's no way to search. can't go on Instagram and search band Vermont venue, Vermont.

    Max Kozol (22:37)

    Yes.

    Yeah

    Scott (22:43)

    It's not a searchable thing. So if I want to keep track of that venue that I liked six months ago, this in Vermont, I have to put it on something.

    Max Kozol (22:45)

    No.

    Yeah, fair. Usually I just look up a band that I vaguely remember the name of and then go from who's their following.

    Scott (23:00)

    That's

    so, I don't, I can't make, my brain, I can't do it. It's too much. I can barely remember the bands that ask me every month like, can we play a show? Can shows? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Three months later, I'm finally starting, ready to start booking June. I'm like, shit. Who are those half dozen bands that wanted to play shows with me? I was like, well, if they didn't keep in touch, I'm moving on because I can't remember.

    Max Kozol (23:06)

    It's too much. But I love it at the same time.

    Yeah,

    it's crazy, I guess, in my specific situation working at the Middle East now, which has, while short, has been amazing. The team there has been super awesome and lovely. You know, I'm taking care of the two smallest rooms, which is Corner and Zuzu, but they have three large rooms as well. And it's not like I don't book them. I do have access to them.

    Scott (23:42)

    Yeah.

    Max Kozol (23:45)

    And so you've probably used like promoter ops or something along those lines. I just look in the calendar and I'm like flooded with holds, flooded with confirms and five different calendars. And it's just like, wow.

    Scott (23:55)

    Yeah?

    It's so much, right? I mean, so like as the booking person at a place, what makes you decide to book something? Cause like when I book my shows, I know what my, my general interests are, but I also recognize that everything I like isn't what everyone else likes and that my shows, I try not to do all the same thing. Like, you know, I guess I'd like to keep them diverse.

    Max Kozol (24:22)

    Yeah.

    Scott (24:29)

    I don't want all ska or all beat down hardcore or all like, folk punk. want to like mix it up and throw it around. But everyone else was like, I really don't listen to a lot of stoner metal, but if it comes my way and it's good and I think, well, I, it's not my favorite thing, but I know like one of my friends really digs it and they come out to the shows all the time. I'm like, I'm going to go ahead and add them on the five band bill for the Sunday.

    Max Kozol (24:39)

    It's cool though.

    haha

    Scott (24:54)

    So like, how

    do you decide what to book? I'm only doing one Sunday a month guaranteed. I have one place I book one Sunday a month. You book five, six, seven days a week. Like, how do you decide what to book and how much to book and who to book it with? Like, that sounds like a fucking lot.

    Max Kozol (24:58)

    Okay.

    So thankfully, it depends on the situation. For Middle East, half, if not, I would say like maybe 80 to 90 % of the stuff that I'm booking in Corner and Zuzu, since they're more oriented towards clubbing, are actually residencies. So they're gonna be like DJ nights, rap, or maybe some type of small three-band bill. Like I can really not go much higher than that because the room doesn't, the space is just, have nowhere to store gear.

    Scott (25:10)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Max Kozol (25:37)

    unfortunately. But then on top of that, I'm also booking dinner service acts. So before that, it'll be like some type of like indie rock, soft jazz, lo-fi, hip hop kind of DJ, something like that. And then on top of that, or the shows I'm actually interested in, I book a lot of like emo, alternative, shoegaze kind of stuff. I love metal as well, don't get me wrong, but it's just usually what comes my way. And so I'll...

    Scott (25:37)

    Okay, that makes sense.

    Okay, fascinating.

    Max Kozol (26:05)

    usually base my instinct on is this person a homie? And a homie doesn't necessarily need to be somebody I know. Is it somebody who is easy to work with, flexible, able to take criticism when necessary, and also able to work quickly?

    Scott (26:09)

    Okay.

    Yep. Nope. I get that entirely. I, I won't mention my head. Some band from somewhere reach out to me and I was like, Hey, this would be a great spot for you, but they're not open on Tuesdays. It might be willing to do it. I got this other spot. I'm like, I want to play X place. I'm like, well you could have just told me that. Like if you told me that's the place you want to play. And I would tell you that I'm actually not the person to help you because that place doesn't really allow outside promoters. They handle it in house for the most part. Here's their email.

    Max Kozol (26:40)

    Yeah.

    Scott (26:52)

    happy to help you if you want to go play something else and I never even heard back. So like, okay, well, you know, if that doesn't work out for you, you come back to me. I don't know. I feel like I was very kind and considerate and gave you a bunch of options. And then you said, I never want to do it in those places you offered anyway. I wanted this place. I'm like, okay, well, you you reached out to me. I was going to remind you, you reached out to me.

    Max Kozol (27:09)

    What's the point? Yeah, yeah, you're...

    It's not like you don't have literally an entire portfolio of previous shows booked to see where you book, either.

    Scott (27:18)

    Yeah,

    well that's the thing, right? It's like, I have a list on my website, like my record label, I have a show link, has all the places that I do shows at, and has all the, like, yeah, it's fine. You know, I was like, I get it, it's all good, it's all good.

    Max Kozol (27:34)

    And also same deal with the genre thing for me as well I have a lot of respect for you being open to like literally anything because a lot of people kind of dig themselves into a musical niche which I think is cool because that makes you a great promoter but doing This kind of specific work you have to be flexible and open to learning more about genres You might not be comfortable with which I had maybe a very

    minimal understanding of electronic music. I understood who some of the cool DJs were in town here, but I didn't necessarily understand the different styles. And so I've been putting in the time to do my research and it's really cool, honestly, getting to hear all the different variances.

    Scott (28:22)

    It takes time to learn stuff. I remember I used to tell my wife, I was like, well, that's kind of outside of my lane. And she's like, how big's your lane? I was like, it was like one or two lanes. And then it got to three lanes and then five lanes. And she's like, you don't have any lanes anymore. And I was like, I don't know why I do. She's like, do you really though? was like.

    Yeah, like I'm doing three DJs tomorrow night and I have never done DJs during a show. I've done DJs after the show was over, but having like DJs in between bands and I had a co-promoter, you know, kept from a wrenches rocks and bottles, but like I'm the guy that was like,

    Max Kozol (28:47)

    Okay.

    Mm-hmm.

    That's actually

    who booked me at night swim actually. Yeah. Yeah, he's awesome

    Scott (29:02)

    rad, Kev's a great guy.

    Yeah. So, but like they were in communicator for a hot minute and I was trying to like get the timing. I'm like, I'm sorry. I know this is going to sound like ignorant, but I've never done shows with DJs before. What is the setup time difference? Cause like I've, I have five bands. I know to give 15, 20 minutes between each band for setup and backline like

    when the band is done, how much time does the DJ need? Are they already plugged in? Are they ready to go? Do they start right away? And then like the band has to set up while you're spinning, I'm assuming, but the band does need at least 10 minutes to sound check. I had to get, and I'm like, and the DJs were very nice to me in like the group chat, but I was like, I know this sounds stupid, but I don't know. Cause I've never done it this way before.

    Max Kozol (29:34)

    Mm-hmm.

    Right. It's like having a mixed bill like that, at least I think of it like a mixed bill, it's awesome and challenging. I am gonna be having something like that actually next month where it's two DJs sandwiching an artist from Connecticut called Spray Bottle Fever, which by the way, if you haven't heard them yet, my God, you need to check them out. They're insane. Yeah, they're like.

    Scott (30:11)

    Alright?

    Yeah, I will, thank you, thank you.

    Max Kozol (30:19)

    I don't know how to describe it properly other than like rap that's mixed with super, what's the word for like crazy out sounding? I'm totally blanking on it. Like kind of bit crushed but also like just, I don't know. I guess I could kind of say like they kind of sound like if ear rape was good. And then.

    seeing them live, their drummer has a skull on his head, cuz they have a live drummer, and he's got the most insane chops i've ever seen

    Scott (30:53)

    And you

    just pointed out something that's really important, right? Like there are bands that I've had where when I put on their music, I'm like, yeah, not bad. But then I see them live and their energy, their emotion, their stage presence, how they work the crowd, their stage manager, whatever combination they're in is so good. like, I'm still not going to buy your record, but I will come see you every time you show up. Right?

    Max Kozol (31:14)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (31:23)

    I'm still not buying your record because I'm not going to want to listen to this when I'm sitting at home. But anytime you come through town, I will be right fucking there to watch you because this experience face to face is a different one than the sitting at home listening to it. And I'm more open to what I go see versus to what I listen to at home. If that makes any sense.

    Max Kozol (31:26)

    Yeah, it's-

    yeah.

    And I think, that might actually,

    yes, that might actually have been the entire downfall of Trophy Husband. It was literally one of those bands where like, I'm not saying that it's like the notes that were crazy, it was definitely more so our stage presence, because truth be told, it was kind of a comedy band. Like, they're playing this ridiculous shit and they're acting like dumbasses.

    Scott (32:06)

    There's but there's something to be said for that. I was in a band called you overprivileged 30 songs in 30 minutes Not technical but like You know my younger brother seen me in like a dozen bands and he's like you've been in better bands technical believe better They write better songs But you three that were high school best friends that got back together in your 20s and formed this band With no desire to do anything other than hang out with each other

    Max Kozol (32:10)

    Mm-hmm. Ugh.

    What about a say, is that going to work?

    Scott (32:34)

    that camaraderie on stage just fucking came across. And like another friend who's like, yeah, you never knew what was going to happen on stage because you all were just walking idz. You did what you wanted. You got on stage and you basically acted like you were having band practice amongst yourselves. It's like the audience wasn't even there. But you would just do whatever you wanted regardless of musicality. was more about like, and I'm like, and it's hard to, it's hard to put that on a CD or a record.

    Max Kozol (33:03)

    I agree. And honestly, think that's what... I don't talk about it a lot, but I hate the... What's a good way to put this? The capitalism of music that has become the... I understand that for a band to function, they need to become a business, and it's awful. It's horrible to... I love the concept of a band releasing music because it is their passion, not because it is their product.

    I would much rather pay to see them do their performance than to capitalize me.

    Scott (33:41)

    Well, I mean, and that's kind of like even the point of my record label, right? Like I do live albums for a reason. I'm a former history teacher. That moment mattered. I've done 50 records in five years. I've done bands that never leave their own fucking town. And I don't care because that moment matter to someone and it needed to be captured and recorded. I'm a little like kind of, I love like discord's idea of documenting DC. I'm just making it like a broader sense. And I sell the records at super cheap prices, like, you know,

    Max Kozol (33:46)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mmm.

    Scott (34:10)

    It's the, I'm not trying to make money. My I'm trying to.

    trying to build community. think I've said that once before and I know that sounds kind of like super cheesy, but like this is the family that's always stood by me in all my years of life. Like, I mean, love my wife for 20 years, married. I know, she's always been there for me and my kids are great. But since I was like in eighth grade, this is the family that I knew was always here for me at any given moment, no matter what else happened to me. So like, I count on this music family.

    Max Kozol (34:28)

    Congrats, well.

    Yeah, I completely agree. this my previous statement as a side note is not me saying I'm not going to pay for music. Of course I could. yeah, absolutely. But I'm going to maybe put preference to the musicians who I feel like are really putting their all and their passion into this. And this I don't think calling it a calling community cheesy is a bad thing. I think it's great. And it's actually one of the main things that

    Scott (34:50)

    no, no, I didn't take that away at all. No.

    Max Kozol (35:11)

    Boston's been struggling with the most is having that big cheesy music community. We have definitely the pockets of it, but it's very hard when we are in a city that is expensive, just to put it simply.

    Scott (35:27)

    Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest, it's been 20 years since I have played a show in Boston. And the last time I did the last couple of times I played with the old like political crust-punk bands like Czolgoz and the profits like profits and money. And then like I was the last time I was there with the band, I was in my wife, the Twats. Was it the Twats? Yeah, we played like two shows in Boston on the same tour. One, a basement show with like Bones Brigade. So fucking great.

    Max Kozol (35:50)

    great name.

    Scott (35:56)

    And then I think we played O’Brien’s with Dark Buster and that was so fucking great. But it all in the same week. And when I booked the tour, my band was like, why are we playing in Boston twice in the same week? was like, one is a 21 and up and over bar. And the other one is an all ages, cross-punk basement show. Boston is a huge fucking city. It doesn't matter. We could basically play five times in the same week. No one knows who we are anyway. As long as we played a different type of venue in a different part of the city with different bands.

    Max Kozol (36:00)

    Awesome.

    Scott (36:25)

    Nobody wouldn't even know that we were here. No one's coming to see us anyway. They're coming to see whoever's already playing and then we're just the out of town band from DC that they're like going to get to see as a, as an appetizer.

    Max Kozol (36:27)

    Yeah

    as

    Unfortunately, that is definitely the best way to describe it. And then there's the people who don't even put in the effort to try and check out said appetizer.

    Scott (36:41)

    Right?

    Yeah, I did that once. Once. I was 16. So it'd been 92. I was gonna go see the Meat Men, this DC punk band at the old 930 club. And there were two bands I never heard of opening. So I sat outside, ignored them and talked with a bunch of people. I wasn't even drinking 40s like everyone else said I drink back then. I was just hanging around, chatting up people and being friendly. And literally...

    Max Kozol (36:49)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (37:15)

    in a space that fit maybe a hundred and some people was the offspring in Pennywise. And I could have seen them in 92. I had no idea who they were. I'd never heard of them before.

    Max Kozol (37:20)

    my god.

    Scott (37:27)

    that's crazy like I was like god damn it okay that's it you never know who the opening band is gonna be and there are times in my life I remember I went to go see Shutter the Think at a college in Fredericksburg Virginia and then the opening band was Sunny Day Real Estate who I'd never heard of

    Max Kozol (37:46)

    What? my god.

    Scott (37:48)

    And it was so fucking amazing. I had not gone to see them. I was like, let's go see them. They're the opening band. Let's be there on time. Last, you know, I've missed opening bands before and you you must have missed a good thing. And I went there and like diary had just come out and like, it's like, it's a long time. It's like 94, 95.

    Max Kozol (38:06)

    Sure it was awesome.

    Yeah, I saw them for their 30th anniversary tour in the Boston show and it was awesome. Yeah, I'm very jealous honestly.

    Scott (38:15)

    Okay, so I saw them 30 years ago, right? Without

    even knowing I was going to see them. No idea who they fucking were.

    Max Kozol (38:21)

    Yeah.

    It's, you never know who's gonna blow up and it's so cool.

    Scott (38:28)

    Yeah. So that's why I'm like, you don't know what you're going to see. So fucking go see it because that small ass band, it may be the greatest thing you didn't know you needed.

    Max Kozol (38:34)

    Yes.

    they're going to make.

    Mm-hmm. yeah, and maybe sometimes they a Lot of the times they may never grow past the small level, but they're still gonna be awesome. Anyway, yes

    Scott (38:52)

    It doesn't matter. Some bands

    just do not grow big. It just happens. I forget who it was. Said that like the secret to being a successful band is not breaking up. You know, but bands break up. Someone gets married or goes back to college or yada yada yada. Whatever various reasons. always tell my students that being in a band where there's like being married to three people you wouldn't date. Right?

    Max Kozol (38:58)

    yeah.

    That's a great way to describe it. man, those were some rough marriages these past few years.

    Scott (39:20)

    Three people you wouldn't even date and then you're get in a little

    white box on four wheels and you're gonna travel around together and you're gonna be hungry, you're gonna be smelly, you're gonna be dirty, you're gonna be tired and you're gonna play shows and hopefully it all goes well but at the end of it you're like fucking I'm tired of you, I've sat next to you like for hours and I've watched you like pick your tochies and I'm just done, I'm done, I don't wanna do this anymore and so it can be a great band.

    Max Kozol (39:29)

    yeah.

    Ugh.

    Scott (39:47)

    doesn't mean they're going to be a successful band in the sense of what we consider success. Success is more than selling records. It is that connection.

    Max Kozol (39:51)

    Yeah.

    big time. And obviously I have to be kind of back and forth on my opinions on this, because I am working for a venue complex. So my objective opinions are, I'm working with a business. I have to make sure the business succeeds. But when I'm doing my passion projects, I'm like, this is just to create a moment for people who actually care.

    Scott (40:04)

    Sure.

    Sure.

    Yeah, exactly. how does Colin play into this Because Colin's part of Broken String, right? What is Colin's perspective, background? What is the role? How do you collaborate?

    Max Kozol (40:23)

    Well, let's go.

    So we met through mutual friend. attended same, he is in attendance, about to finish up of same said unnamed music school. He's actually from the Philly music scene. So he has a lot more experience with the DIY. It's crazy there. It's very clicky, but honestly I respect it because they're trying to keep the scene safe. And he wanted to help me. I mean, we were roommates for a very long time. We've always, he's basically my brother and

    Scott (40:42)

    I love Philly.

    Max Kozol (40:59)

    He really wanted to try and help me in some way with making sure that the bookings that I'm doing are getting off the ground. So he's really taking care of a lot more administrative and promotional stuff for me. So he'll do the emailing to the local event calendars, pay people to put up the flyers, you know. If there is a big enough show, he'll actually write up like a press release and send it out to the local news sources, stuff like that.

    Scott (41:26)

    hanging people to put up flyers. I was thinking about that today, cause today I was walking around hanging up flyers in three different towns, New Paltz Rosendale and Kingston. And I was outside for like three hours today hanging flyers and I saw flyers of like local DJs at every place I went. And I know that this DJ and I love this DJ. They are fabulous. They're not out there hanging up their own fucking flyers. And I was like, I need to reach out to them and see who the fuck hangs up their flyers. Cause like,

    Max Kozol (41:32)

    Mm-hmm.

    my god.

    Mm.

    Scott (41:55)

    Is there a service out there that I could be using? Cause like my time is valuable. Will someone hang flyers for me?

    Max Kozol (42:03)

    Mm-hmm. I mean, the way we do it, we just ask a homie and throw him 20, 30 bucks and say, hey, can you put up some flyers on your way home?

    Scott (42:13)

    Okay, and you make sure they actually do it.

    Max Kozol (42:16)

    Yeah, we'll like ask them to send like five or six photos, you know.

    Scott (42:18)

    Yeah.

    Cause I knew kids back in high school that were like gonna hang like Chinese menus and so I then just throw them all down the drain and things like that.

    Max Kozol (42:25)

    my god, that's the worst. But I also have to make sure it's people who we can actually trust. I'm not gonna just hand it off to some random person. It's definitely gonna be somebody who we have built a close personal relationship and wants to see something like this succeed.

    Scott (42:30)

    Yes.

    Yeah, so like that would be so crucial. Do you have any other sports like I have? I know you said you do sound. I have a consistent sound person. Their partner Savannah is like basically my events co co manager. She helps me. She's great at solving problems and doing social media post designs and videos that I've got. Willie who runs door his fiancee Al arsenic. They does my merch for me. They both carry stuff in.

    And I used to do it all by myself and it was like so hard. And I'm like, Oh, this is so much easier having people that I love and respect helping me out. And they do it for such a nominal amount of money. I'm like, they offered to do it for free. And I was like, I can't give you free. Like I have to pay you something. they're like, no, no, we just want to support what you're doing. I was like, I mean, that makes my heart glow. Cause I couldn't do it without them, but they deserve to be.

    Max Kozol (43:11)

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    No.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (43:37)

    treat it with respect.

    Max Kozol (43:39)

    They deserve the world for being able to help you see your vision come true. That's amazing.

    Scott (43:42)

    Yeah.

    So do you have people besides Colin, they like you as a regular sound person when you do your own shows? you going to be doing sound at the Warehouse 11 where Meow Meow plays?

    Max Kozol (43:51)

    So.

    I'll probably, actually no, I think for that one. So my buddy Cade, who, Cade Eric, who I actually will fill in on bass for their live gigs. They are one of the most cracked sound people I've ever met. They're specifically gonna be running this one because they're actually dating the booker of Cozy Throne. But they are the person who trained me to run sound here. And now they're going on a two month long US tour, TMing for Victor Jones.

    Scott (44:14)

    Okay.

    Yeah!

    Max Kozol (44:24)

    If Victor Jones, I don't know if the name rings a bell or not, he definitely was like a TikTok star that blew up, but he's got like a really unique sound at least. It's kind of like, he calls it crash out music. Yeah, it's really cool.

    Scott (44:34)

    Okay.

    Fascinating this is a generational

    thing. I was like, I don't know what crash I'm I know my kids would be able to tell me what crash out music is I mean my kids all the music crashes out all the time. So

    Max Kozol (44:47)

    I don't really know how to describe it. It's kind of like rap-esque because he's not really singing the whole time, but it's not like what you would consider normal rap for sure.

    Scott (44:53)

    Okay.

    I feel like there's an amazing generation of people who have so much access to so many things that what I consider like what did I I told meow meow the other day that they were post-genre

    Max Kozol (45:19)

    that's interesting.

    Scott (45:20)

    because I don't know what to call them because they mix in classic rock, folk, punk, emo, jazz. And they're what I imagine someone who grew up with like streaming and YouTube music at their fingertips their whole life. So that like, unlike me who had to like only listen to what I actually owned or what was on the radio, they could listen to anything they wanted at any given moment they wanted. And half of them probably did like school of rock and had to do like, you know, one month of like

    classic rock and one month of pop punk and one month of like R &B jazz. like, so they were exposed to so much where was like, me, it was like, oh, I meet friend, we take friends, tapes, copy friends, tapes, listen to what friends has. And that's like how I do what music existed. And that's why every one of us all listen to the same shit. Cause we all just pass each other's tapes around. But like there's a generation of you, like the generation you're in.

    Max Kozol (45:48)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    That's awesome.

    Scott (46:16)

    And then this is not meant as any sort of criticism. It's meant as a like, understanding of like the way you've been able to access music. It's so vastly different than how I consume music growing up.

    Max Kozol (46:24)

    Mm-hmm.

    would maybe consider it a little unhealthy the amount of music I have consumed and listened to. I can't lie. I'll maybe spend hours just trolling through streaming service recommendations of different artists and it's like, yeah, that's awesome. But I also do love the natural way of discovering music.

    I kind of prefer it sometimes because it just becomes a big glut when I just look at how many albums I have saved that I haven't fully listened through.

    Scott (47:02)

    Well, I mean, that even comes into like, you I run a record label, but I own like 600 records. Do I listen to every record in one year? It's not possible. And that's just my 12 inches. Don't even get into my boxes and boxes of seven inches. Right? Like, so I am fully aware that people might buy my record and listen to it two or three times and then put it away and not listen to it for another year. But that's, that's okay.

    Max Kozol (47:07)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah. that's,

    yeah. It's meant to be, it's not, again, it's not a product, it's an experience and people want to experience it with the amount of times they can handle it and that's the preference. I don't know what my train of thought was at before. I'm kind of losing the plot, I guess.

    Scott (47:34)

    Yep. I mean...

    It's

    okay. It's okay. We're just we're just shooting this shit and talking. Okay, so we were talking about the thing you've got a sound person so are you the person greeting the bands and and helping them feel comfortable and then just kind of like being the the house manager, I guess. Like, you know, are you that person? This is like I'm here

    Max Kozol (47:48)

    yeah.

    No

    I guess I kind of consider it like a house manager almost. Yeah, so when I am running sound or if I'm doing anything related to Warehouse, I am hosting the bands. They are utilizing the space and I am fully a believer that anybody who is utilizing the space should feel comfortable in the space. Yeah.

    Scott (48:09)

    Okay.

    Absolutely, right? Like if

    you're I I did 35 shows last year. I think there were two that I was not present at I Don't like not being present at my own fucking shows

    Max Kozol (48:37)

    Mmm.

    Yeah, man, it's been kind of rough for me this January. I booked way too many shows and couldn't really attend all of them.

    Scott (48:47)

    no.

    I mean, are these like through Broken String or okay. How many did you book?

    Max Kozol (48:51)

    Yeah.

    Oh, let's see. Pull up the good old notes app. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, like eight total things.

    Scott (49:04)

    Shut

    the fuck up, that's a lot of shows!

    Max Kozol (49:07)

    Yeah, it doesn't sound like a lot, you have to set up the show, you have to coordinate everything with all the bands, make sure they get all their advances, and sometimes things fall through the cracks because there's just so much. And then I'm still booking February and March on top of that when I was doing that.

    Scott (49:09)

    it is.

    Sure. Yep, absolutely.

    And you're the flyers and getting the flyers designed unless you design them yourselves.

    Max Kozol (49:27)

    I literally have in my

    computer bag just flyers right here for an awesome show that I'm so excited for next month. the biggest one I'm gonna have all year so far, no offense to Meow Meow, but.

    Scott (49:38)

    No, no,

    no, I get it. it's, it, it, it, it's hard to like, you don't want to say no to something, but like, my, my, my bandwidth is just so far.

    Max Kozol (49:49)

    Yeah, I unfortunately have fallen victim to letting things fall through the cracks. I've officially, as of a few days ago, made the separation from my personal account and everything else. It was...

    Scott (50:03)

    You know what?

    You are recognizing what you need to do. It's okay. It shows us a lot. Growing pains. What is it? Like it was in the Against Me! songs, like promises are meant if not kept. You mean to do everything to the best of your abilities all the time. Sometimes you stretch yourself too far because you care too much and try and provide too much. In the end, you're going to learn and grow from it and it's okay.

    Max Kozol (50:08)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    I definitely have started to notice some negative health effects because of it, which is normal for anybody who's trying to do these things, because you need to push yourself. I don't think that it's a good idea to push yourself to your limit to find out where the limit is, but sometimes that's what happens.

    Scott (50:45)

    I think when the problem is like sometimes you do it and then like it's coming your way and then you're like, shit, it's coming. Like I did this to myself and but it's, but I can see it coming three months from now and it's, and it's, and it's coming or like there was, it was like last October was like my, like, the fuck did I just do to myself? I think I had a show every weekend in like September and then October rolled around.

    Max Kozol (50:51)

    Yeah.

    Yes.

    my God.

    Scott (51:13)

    and I booked what I called the Tri Corner Hudson Valley for this band called Burning Hag from Philly. I was like, I'm gonna book you southeast of the Hudson, Capital District, and then, you know, southwest of the Hudson. So even though you're only like an hour and a half apart from each city, you're far enough apart that there are different scenes, and I'm book you with different bands so you can go on tour and stay in one place and like hang out, but you never have to like travel a lot, and you can like enjoy the Hudson Valley. It's like a great idea, right?

    Max Kozol (51:39)

    Yeah.

    Scott (51:40)

    Okay. So I did that. It's like three days. That's three days of my life. I'm like, that's fine. And then I had, um, friend of mine said, Hey Scott, can you do this show for me? I really need to like a show on this Sunday. I was like, okay, how can I say no to you? I've known you for 25, 30 years. I got you. I got you. It's okay. That's four shows. I was like, Oh, and then O+ Festival which is like a festival that like gives out free healthcare in exchange for playing. They're like, Hey, we're doing a show at the venue. Do you show that? And you do such a great job there. We'd like to,

    Max Kozol (51:44)

    Yeah

    Okay.

    Scott (52:09)

    pay you a nominal amount of money to run the shows on Friday and Saturday. That same weekend, you have that Sunday show for your friend. Would you like to do that? And I'm like, I feel like that's going to stretch me a little thin. I was like, Oh, just do it. I was like, okay, now I'm at six shows. And then, you know, and then also I was like, Oh, my other friend is coming through and they're bringing Henry Cluney from Stiff Little Fingers. One of my favorite bands since I was in high school and they need a show. But I was just going to a wedding the next day in Maryland. And I was like,

    Max Kozol (52:13)

    how can you say no to that? Wow.

    Scott (52:35)

    We'll go to the wedding

    Max Kozol (52:36)

    no!

    Scott (52:36)

    without you and you do the show and drive down by yourself the next day, you'll be fine. I'm like, okay, now I'm at seven shows. Now keep in mind, I'm getting my PhD. I have a wife, I have kids, like I work.

    Max Kozol (52:45)

    Yeah.

    Oh my god, are you okay? Oh my god.

    Scott (52:48)

    That's my point! And I think I released two records that month too.

    So... So I'm like, what the fuck am I doing to myself?

    Max Kozol (52:58)

    You're living life to the fullest and drenching yourself in work.

    Scott (53:03)

    drenching myself in work and I have no idea what's on TV. No fucking clue. Like what are you watching? And I was like, I'm sorry, what am I doing? What? When you sit down and relax, when you watch TV, I was like, I read comic books when I go to bed and then I fall asleep and then I wake up and do everything all over again.

    Max Kozol (53:19)

    That's real. I don't read comic books. I'll put on a video essay. just take my mind off of music for maybe an hour or two. Video games or something else. I don't know.

    Scott (53:33)

    But it's like, oh, okay. But I'm like, and you're like, my kid's doctor's appointments and the orthodontist appointments for my other kid. And I've got to do this, yada yada. It's like, as you get older, it actually gets more and more complicated when it should get easier. Life has a way, right? It's like, is coming around. I'm like, okay, I've got all this in June. I've got Camp Punksylvania I've got Punk Island. I've got this show and that show.

    Max Kozol (53:47)

    you think but life has a way doesn't it

    Scott (54:03)

    Waste Fest and then like, you know, I'm talking to bands that are like, you know, they're booking it. He's like, they need shows in June. I can't say no to these bands. I'm to the fucking show.

    It's fine. It's fine. That's fine. It'll all work. It'll work out. But it'll be perfect.

    Max Kozol (54:17)

    man. It'll work out, yeah, it'll be great. It'll be perfect.

    That's me in two weeks when I'm about to work a bunch of shows and then do a weekender and then come back and then do another show at midnight because it's at one of my rooms at the Middle East and they always go late.

    Scott (54:38)

    And the thing is, do you have anyone else when you can't do a show you can refer them to? Because I have people, like I refer people to Kev all the time. I refer people to Holly, started referring people to this guy Dylan from Shadow Witch who does like these other shows. Cause I'm like, sometimes I just have to say no and refer people. Like I've had to learn the healthiness. So do you have referral people that you trust?

    Max Kozol (54:54)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I'd say I need to pass back more to Lower Worlds because they passed me the show. They were amazing. I really appreciate everything that they've been doing at The Sill and at O’Brien’s. Those are small spaces that really need that love. I'll pass people off to another group that books at The Sill. We book things. Brian, who runs the show there, he's a great, great guy. I'll sometimes send it directly over to the talent buyer, the Middle East Tyler, or the Middle East, sorry, at O’Brien’s Tyler, or like...

    I'll even connect with my management that I work for at the Middle East, Carrie and Erin, who are such impressive workers, genuinely, the amount of just craziness that they go through to get these shows going, because they book over a thousand shows a year.

    Scott (55:46)

    I mean they have multiple rooms and they seem open to even new bands and I say that because like I had a band called 504 playing from DC that graduated high school last year and they're singers up in the school that cannot be named and they

    Max Kozol (55:48)

    Yeah.

    Hmm.

    my god.

    Scott (56:10)

    They were in a band whose name I I politely told them they shouldn't use that name because it was a power violence band of great renown and that even though they don't know the name anybody in the Hudson Valley if I put that name on a flyer I would have to say not the band you think it is

    Max Kozol (56:28)

    That's rough. I hate that kind of confusion though.

    Scott (56:31)

    And I'm like I and like he understood but his bandmates were like who the fuck is this old man telling you this shit and I was like

    Max Kozol (56:39)

    guys.

    Scott (56:39)

    It's

    like if you've never heard of the Circle Jerks or the The Vaselines or whatever. I'm just giving you advice because people like, you've heard of G.L.O.S.S., right? Okay. I was on tour with my band, Call in Dead, my lead singer. She sings in M.A.C.E. now, Men Are Cunts Everywhere, great queer core transcore band. She's a huge fan of G.L.O.S.S.. We got into Philly and we were at a record store and they had a flyer and it said G.L.O.S.S. was playing at a skate park.

    Max Kozol (56:50)

    Yeah, of course, yeah.

    Scott (57:08)

    And my singer was like, shut the fuck up. G.L.O.S.S. is coming. She was ready to cancel the tour and stay in Philly to catch the show. And the person behind the counter was like, yeah, that's my band. And she's like, what do mean that's your band? yeah, we're a new band. She's like, no, no, no. You cannot call your name G.L.O.S.S.. So that's what I meant, right? I meant it as a very kind,

    Max Kozol (57:26)

    Yup. Yup.

    Scott (57:34)

    But now, they changed their name now to Loser, I believe is their new name. under their prior name, Middle East booked them at least twice.

    Max Kozol (57:37)

    Okay. All right, let's.

    Okay, well, we've definitely had conversations about that kind of stuff too. had an indie rock band playing during one of our dinner services that were called Dogs in a Pile, which is not the same as the famous Dogs in a Pile, but...

    Scott (57:57)

    Yeah.

    But nonetheless.

    Max Kozol (58:04)

    It's extremely confusing and can cause, yes, you might get an audience, but they're not gonna be a happy one.

    Scott (58:09)

    No, I mean, unless your genre is incredibly different, but like I still remember it was like the nineties and I was on my first trip from DC to Disney World of all fucking places and I was like, look at that. There, this venue in there is like a band called Exodus is playing. I am going to go hear the toxic walls. I'm going to hear some fucking great thrash metal. And I rolled up and it was like a reggae band. It was like,

    Max Kozol (58:38)

    Sorry. Yeah.

    Scott (58:38)

    I was sad. I was sadded.

    So I'm just saying Google internet exists. Don't use the band of a name that already exists. Come up with your own fucking name or at least be so far outside the genre that it's okay.

    Max Kozol (58:45)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I mean, like, I know a lot of people have now been, like, doing the state labels at the end of their name to try and separate it, which is helpful, but also still confusing.

    Scott (59:03)

    Yeah, I mean, I remember there was a Philly band called Trailer Trash that had to UK to their name because there was a country band called Trailer Trash and it got sued. Then there was a band called National Razor from Baltimore and they got in trouble so they named themselves National Razor FDIC. So, I mean, even Dinosaur Jr. I think they added Jr. to it because like, you know, someone else was called Dinosaur.

    Max Kozol (59:13)

    my god.

    Well, the local band, I mentioned them earlier to you, think, Ski Club, they were originally called Spoons, and lo and behold, Spoon reached out to them.

    Scott (59:36)

    Spoon reached out to them because they were called spoons, but they're plural. Spoons is different than spoon. Singular is different.

    Max Kozol (59:39)

    Yeah. So,

    fun little thing that I actually did learn. One of the few things I did pick up from school that must not be named that I think is actually extremely important that most bands should know. In the world of copyright laws, when it comes to band names, one of the greatest pieces of advice my professor gave me was, if you are an elderly lady with barely any vision left,

    and you see two smudges on a page and they don't look any different, even if one might have a single letter different. If the smudge looks the same, if you cross your eyes and you can barely read it, that's the same thing.

    Scott (1:00:21)

    Fascinating. So under copyright law, spoon and spoons are the same.

    Max Kozol (1:00:24)

    Yeah.

    It's too similar and it's considered like you could potentially be stealing their market.

    Scott (1:00:38)

    Fascinating. mean, it's not like saying fugazi and you're spelling it with the E at the end instead of an I.

    Max Kozol (1:00:46)

    Well, actually, yeah, it can be that too.

    Scott (1:00:49)

    I mean, no, no, that, I mean, that, that would be like, would say that that's like intentionally trying to trick people, like a slight misspelling, but like, I feel like that, that.

    Max Kozol (1:00:55)

    okay. Yeah, it's even if it's like

    an exclamation point even at the end or something like that

    Scott (1:01:03)

    I am all for copyright not allowing exclamation points or slight misspellings, but I believe in pluralization as being totally fucking acceptable. I'm sorry. Like if I would have named my band Anal Cunts, then Anal Cunts is different than Anal Cunt. I'm sorry.

    Max Kozol (1:01:15)

    now

    There's look there's nothing stopping you from putting music out obviously as you know like you can just go on any distribution service and just pay for it and it's there but It's going to cause a lot of problems

    Scott (1:01:38)

    God

    Max Kozol (1:01:46)

    And I like the creative ways people have been trying to get around band names lately. I don't know, I see a lot of emo violence bands or metalcore bands where they just smash the words together into one long string. I think that's great. Like Fall 50 Feet, I think they're awesome. Another great metalcore band that I got to open for at O’Brien’s a long time ago that deserves so much love because they're...

    Their album counterfeit recollections. it's peak. But I'm biased because I love Dillinger Escape Plan and every time I die and they take a lot of influence from that.

    Scott (1:02:19)

    Yeah.

    I saw Dillinger Escape Plan. Was it with Mr. Bungle? I think it was with Mr. Bungle. Yeah.

    Max Kozol (1:02:33)

    What? Well, that would actually make sense because Mike Pattonton did that EP, Irony Is a Dead Scene with them. So that makes sense, but that's still wild.

    Scott (1:02:37)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Oh, it was great. And that had to be like, gosh, what was like 2002, 2003? So good. Such a good show. I'm a big Mike Pattonton fan. Like I have every faith in more record. Like I've seen them bunches of times. First time I saw them was when they opened up for Guns N' Roses and Metallica back in like 91 and everyone was booing them because like, you know,

    Max Kozol (1:02:48)

    So

    Mm-hmm.

    What?

    Scott (1:03:08)

    Yeah, was a stadium full of chuckleheads. I don't have to tell you. They were either Tough Guy Metallica fans or like the sort of fans that like Guns N' Roses. And while I liked all three bands, I found myself more on the intellectual, smart Faith No More side.

    Max Kozol (1:03:24)

    Yeah, yeah, fair enough. You know?

    Scott (1:03:25)

    Yeah, yeah. I was like,

    if I had to pick one of the three bands that like die on a cross for. It would have been Faith No More, which it was funny that I said cross with Faith No More, but you got my

    Max Kozol (1:03:36)

    yeah, but completely agreed on the last

    Scott (1:03:39)

    Yeah, Angel Dust was like one of those amazing albums. I used to just walk around quoting the lyrics in school and people thought I was like either like very intelligent or very weird.

    Max Kozol (1:03:51)

    There's probably a fine line between the two though.

    Scott (1:03:54)

    If you walk around quoting Mike Pattonton to yourself sub-vocalizing it so people overhear you

    Max Kozol (1:04:00)

    Hahaha

    Scott (1:04:02)

    This was pre-Columbine so I'm safe now but like had I been doing that post-Columbine I seem to whistle just for fun.

    Max Kozol (1:04:05)

    Ooh. That would have been rough.

    I think this has to be the equivalent of like my generation and stims where they'll just say noises and shit like that.

    Scott (1:04:18)

    I mean

    Mike Patton did an entire album I believe where he was just like sitting on a toilet and shitting and like making funny noises and stuff. So I mean Yeah, yeah, it's it's like yeah, I'm just gonna say weird shit that Mike Pattonton said in songs and all the time

    Max Kozol (1:04:28)

    my god, that's awesome.

    But I think taking Mike Pattonton as an inspiration is also an amazing decision nonetheless. Yeah. You know, I look up to bands like Dillinger Escape Plan and I don't plan on snorting coke like Greg Puciato did, so.

    Scott (1:04:38)

    I appreciate that, thank you.

    It's fascinating, you know, I know what your scene is like but like growing up in DC there was enough straight-edge kids that I was able to like be around a lot of shit and never do anything. I mean I barely even drank until I turned 21 and like I was like, oh yeah, like yeah. My kids like, you didn't do drugs? No. But I'm always like, I had three or four times in my life. I was like, I just get vertigo and fall asleep. I don't really I like it. She's like, that's weird but you were in a band. I was like, yeah.

    Max Kozol (1:04:55)

    Mmm.

    wow, yeah.

    Mm.

    Being in a band does not have to equal you get fucked up all the time. remember reading a lot of statistics about bands actually and the correlation with alcoholism because of the way the music industry is designed. And it's so fucked up. my God. I don't know if you've looked into this at all.

    Scott (1:05:20)

    It really does not.

    I mean,

    I think I just limped it.

    Max Kozol (1:05:39)

    well, yeah, that makes sense.

    Scott (1:05:42)

    I mean,

    have, I always tell people, I've had too many friends die of heroin overdoses and I've seen the alcoholism take people. But like, I'm of the generation, the 90s, where like, you know, when I was in eighth grade before I discovered like punk rock and stuff like that, I was listening to Led Zeppelin and I was like reading books about Led Zeppelin, was like, oh, this is what you do. You snort coke, do heroin, drink a lot and have lots of.

    of unmarried sex even when you're married to other people. Like this is what rock stars do. This is what it means to play rock and roll.

    Max Kozol (1:06:13)

    Yeah, this is just what I do.

    But maybe, just maybe, the music can be good, but the people aren't good because of it.

    Scott (1:06:22)

    Yeah, yeah. There was a show called Growing Pains when I was growing up. had, God, what's this? God, what was his name? I don't know what it It was, it was an 80s sitcom and there was a scene, an episode where he went to go see his favorite star. I think like Rick Springfield, Bruce Springsteen sort of thing. And he was in the dressing room and the star was like, I need a cup of coffee. And his manager went to go get him a cup of coffee. But the cup of coffee was a euphemism for

    bring me back a girl to scoodily poop with. And this kid was like all, like Kirk Cameron, he was all upset. He's like, no, my hero is having an affair because he's married and he doesn't do this. And his dad's like, look, are you really going to judge him by who he is? Are you going to judge him by his music? Let's just go out and enjoy the show. And I remember watching that going, no, I kind of feel like if they're assholes.

    Max Kozol (1:06:55)

    my god.

    Scott (1:07:19)

    Maybe you don't want to enjoy their music. Not that everyone has to be perfect, right?

    Max Kozol (1:07:21)

    Yeah.

    Maybe they shouldn't have a platform. Sorry, somebody's staring in the window. Don't mind me.

    Scott (1:07:27)

    Yeah, but it like it's that that episode

    has never left my head because like it always just like there was a cognitive dissonance in me. It's probably lean towards like the fugazi discord where I was like that doesn't feel right to me.

    Max Kozol (1:07:41)

    No, I don't think people should be allowed to have a separation from their art and their actual humanity at times. I think sometimes good art can be respected, but people should not be given the opportunity to make these bad decisions and continue to have a platform.

    Scott (1:07:59)

    Yeah,

    I think where the struggle comes in, like have you ever read poetry like by Charles Bukowski? I mean, he's a horrible human being. I mean, all of his poems are about like prostitutes and gambling and alcohol abuse, but like the poems are really, really good, but I don't like him.

    Max Kozol (1:08:06)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    yeah. But also like at the same time, people should be given the space to try and improve, grow, and even move past their wrongs. But that's, a lot of people don't really give them that opportunity, especially actually in music scenes. Yeah. I fully believe that people should be called out on their bulls, on their bullshit in a music scene. But, and if they like harmed a person, they should be removed and

    Scott (1:08:26)

    Yes.

    Yes, restorative justice is necessary.

    Max Kozol (1:08:46)

    I don't know necessarily if they are provided the space to improve, grow, come back and apologize, but at least in their own life they should try and figure out their shit.

    Scott (1:08:57)

    It's a hard situation because you want everyone to feel safe and respected. But like having taught middle school, I realized that a lot of adults are just the same as middle school kids and that they can't, if you just ban them, then you're not allowing them to grow to become better people. But it depends on what they did and the severity of what they did. So we, like, I'm going to bring up Kevin again. I don't want to keep bringing up Kev. Um, I, I had a show and I did a drag show afterwards and Kev was there and Kev was

    Max Kozol (1:09:14)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:09:26)

    was there just to hang out. But because he's Kev and he has this moral compass, it's like really solid. During the drag, someone yelled out the F word and Kev just went right up to them. Now, Kev could have just made them fucking leave, but Kev is a better person than that. He said, hey, that's unacceptable. And the guy's like, I'm sorry. was like, you can't say shit like that. It's not appreciated. You need to leave or like, you know, and in their discussion, somehow Kev managed to ask him why he would say that.

    Max Kozol (1:09:55)

    Hmm

    Scott (1:09:56)

    And the guy

    was like, I just felt uncomfortable. I'd never seen anything like this before. I didn't know this was going to be happening tonight. And it made me uncomfortable. was like, your discomfort doesn't allow you to insult people. And the guy was like, I understand that. And like whatever happened in their conversation, the guy actually went up and apologized to all the drag queens and every drag queen but one accepted their apology. And then he stayed to enjoy and he stayed for the rest of the event. So like,

    Max Kozol (1:10:06)

    Yeah.

    fair?

    Yeah, that's amazing.

    Scott (1:10:24)

    I have this whole thing that's like, do inclusive spaces and I even want to be inclusive towards people that might not be initially comfortable with a trans band or a BIPOC band, but I want them to come and be there so that their discomfort can be challenged. I want them to be able to grow. So Kev was a great example of that. And I've told this story many times, just as I think it's exactly.

    Max Kozol (1:10:39)

    Yes.

    Scott (1:10:49)

    what should happen instead of just immediately kicking this person out and saying fuck you get out of here never come to one of our shows again kev's like hey let's take this to a moment to see if i can help you grow as a person

    Max Kozol (1:10:54)

    Yeah.

    It's very tricky, especially when alcohol is involved too. my God, because alcohol is fun until people aren't thinking straight. I am a believer in alcohol just makes you say the things that you're saying in your head. And unfortunately that can create a lot of really tricky situations, unfortunately in a city music scene, there is a lot of things that are holding it back, like people who are making the safe spaces unsafe.

    Scott (1:11:04)

    Yes!

    Yes.

    Max Kozol (1:11:31)

    But that's, I mean the community aspect helps people warn and be aware at the very least. Like I think people should be given a chance up to a certain degree like you mentioned, but there are some people at the same time who should just not be allowed.

    Scott (1:11:32)

    Nope, I agree.

    I 100 % agree. I have people that are not allowed in my shows and I did have one person once where a couple of people said, hey, this person's an issue. And I've never seen the person be an issue. And I went and was like, this is what I'm hearing. This is what I've seen. And I think it's like when you drink X, Y, and Z and you behave this way, and this person's like, I had no idea people thought that way. And I was like, okay, that might be true. Here's the deal. I have not seen it. I'm telling you right now.

    The moment I see it, you will never be allowed to one of my shows ever again. Next time I saw them at shows, they were drinking NA beers.

    Max Kozol (1:12:17)

    Yeah.

    Okay, that's... yeah.

    Scott (1:12:22)

    So like,

    you know what I'm saying? I was like, they're like, I really had no idea. I was like, okay.

    Max Kozol (1:12:28)

    That's,

    I think that's more terrifying by the fact that they did not know. They did not put in the effort to try and understand how they would be acting in a public space not sober.

    Scott (1:12:39)

    And I think that's, you know, that's, it's, that's an issue. But once again, people are not socially taught how to behave. Right? Like we don't spend a lot of, like I said, I taught middle school, we don't spend a lot of time working with kids and help with them understand how to behave in settings outside of the classroom and settings where they're drinking. We used to assume they're going to know better, but who actually says, Hey, you know what?

    In xy situation, this is a real issue. And if friends just say, fuck you, you fucked up, we're done with you, then they're never going to learn and grow. They're just going to keep making the same mistake again.

    Max Kozol (1:13:12)

    Yeah.

    Mmm.

    What are your opinions on the fact that, like, I mean, the obvious fact that the music industry runs on alcohol sales?

    Scott (1:13:32)

    I wish more venues and this is going be an unpopular opinion. Listen to me. Venues should take more of a cut of the door and so it should be less reliant on alcohol sales. So in the nineties, you may not know this and if you do and I'm recreating, we know, I apologize. The nineties, a lot of venues started taking cuts of merch sales and they started like I would play shows on tour and they would have people selling my merch for me at the merch at the shows because so many straight edge bands are around. They weren't making alcohol sales.

    Max Kozol (1:14:00)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:14:04)

    So they started taking money off of bands, merch sales, which I think is just super shitty. but like I have venues in this area that I know that are really great venues, but they'll do the straight edge hardcore shows of all ages and they'll have 150 people in there and the venue won't make any money, but the venue needs to still pay its rent is electricity. It's sound person. They're regular people that come to the bar to hang out and like have drinks.

    Max Kozol (1:14:08)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:14:31)

    you know, get scared away by 150 people like slam dancing against each other. So they deserve to take a portion of the bill.

    Max Kozol (1:14:39)

    Yeah. I don't disagree.

    Scott (1:14:41)

    But people

    don't like to pay venues. They like to pay promoters even less than they like to pay venues. They might pay the sound person, but they really, really hate to pay venues. And then they really, really seem to hate to pay promoters. It has been my experience.

    Max Kozol (1:14:48)

    Yeah.

    I guess the biggest issue for me really is just there's not enough money in general.

    Scott (1:15:02)

    Yeah, it's you

    have to pay charge more like I'm sorry, but 50 people showed up If 50 people show up for five bands at $10 a band that's $500 if I pay $200 for sound now I'm down to 300 if I pay $50 for the door person now I'm down to 250 if I pay myself 50 bucks back for the $50 and flyers and I made it staples now We're down to 200 and there's five bands and every band gets $40

    Max Kozol (1:15:29)

    Yeah.

    And also not every venue is a live nation or an AEG. Not trying to knock corporate music, but at the same time, you like, we are both in the world of the independent promoter. Like even the Middle East, it may be a venue complex. It is a venue complex, but it is family owned. It is competing with the major corporations that are running the venues in town.

    who are offering way more when it comes to the payout to the artists. And truth be told, those venues are doing it at a loss because they have the backing of the larger promoter.

    Scott (1:16:11)

    Exactly. And I do a lot of shows, not a lot, not a flop. No one turned away for lack of funds. So it's hard because I get bands that are like relatively big than when $800 guarantees. I'm like...

    Max Kozol (1:16:15)

    Mm. Yeah.

    Scott (1:16:27)

    It's not undoable. I usually push back with the door deal. I was like, I'll give you, you know, 70 % of the door or whatever or something like that. But I also, I feed every band that comes to my shows too. So like my show tomorrow night.

    Max Kozol (1:16:35)

    Yeah.

    Okay, yeah. It's not like, are they

    asking for like 800 and a catering buyout on top of that?

    Scott (1:16:46)

    No, I just make that a general thing I do for every show. I, I, when I toured Europe, we got fed and I just believe that a basic amount of food, even if it's like a veggie plate and a hummus plate, something that where they can walk in and like have something to eat. Cause I've been the person who's been on the road and been on an eight hour drive and had no time to stop and eat any food.

    Max Kozol (1:16:49)

    Okay.

    It's still something.

    Scott (1:17:12)

    and gotta go on in like 2 hours so there's no time for me go walking someplace and try and find something and I'm just fucking starving.

    Max Kozol (1:17:21)

    Yeah. I don't know exactly what you're talking about. I've had too many a time on tour where I've had to like sit in the car and wait for us to get to whatever place we have collectively decided on on having to get food after the show. It's a nightmare.

    Scott (1:17:21)

    You know what I'm talking about!

    yeah,

    that's even worse, right? And like when I was on tour in the 90s, I was a vegetarian. And you know how hard it was to get vegetarian food in the 90s on the road? It was fucking awful. I used to peanut butter and jelly all the time.

    Max Kozol (1:17:44)

    I can't even imagine actually.

    my god, and then that's when I that's when the brief period of time where the touring band learned about how to meal prep

    Scott (1:17:57)

    Yeah,

    it's like, Then when we toured Europe, everything was vegetarian and vegan and I couldn't have been happier. My bandmates were disgusted. They're like, we haven't had meat in like three weeks. I'm like,

    Max Kozol (1:18:04)

    come on.

    Not having meat is not the worst thing in the world.

    Scott (1:18:13)

    They made our vegan tour driver stop and take him to a Burger King at one point. Yeah.

    Max Kozol (1:18:18)

    What?

    my god.

    Scott (1:18:22)

    That's fine. It's fine. I mean, but I was living off of McDonald’s French fries and you know, every now and then there'd be Taco Bell would be like the delight.

    Max Kozol (1:18:33)

    my god, I love the Taco Bell mystery meat and what it can do to you

    Scott (1:18:36)

    Yeah, exactly.

    And I've done promoter pasta and you know, it's, it's, it's probably like, cause like, even now, like I have the show, the show I have coming up tomorrow, it's all meal tickets. Cause there's a kitchen there. So I don't want to bring food in cause they have a kitchen, but I talked to cases like, look, I'm going to give all the band members artists a $5 ticket per band member towards whatever they want. And like, you know, a thing of like, you know, um,

    Max Kozol (1:18:42)

    stuff.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:19:05)

    mozzarella cheese sticks or buffalo cauliflower, you know, it was like, you $8. So $5 is like you're buying it for three bucks. That's, and then the end of the night, whatever tickets get paid, I owe the bar five bucks per ticket. Some bands use the tickets, some bands don't use the tickets. I actually, it cost me less money than when like I buy like pizza. It's like I had five bands like a week ago and I bought a pizza for each band.

    Max Kozol (1:19:13)

    Yeah, it's not bad at all.

    That's crazy. I can't, because that's going to be like $20 a pie. That's wild.

    Scott (1:19:34)

    Yes, exactly. So, and actually

    I went bought it for four of the bands because one of the bands, they had two vegan members and my vegan cheese place in the area shut down. So I just gave them 20 bucks until then there's a Chinese restaurant next door that they can get vegan food out.

    Max Kozol (1:19:49)

    I of like that you make food versus like offering a catering buyout. I understand that like a catering buyout is the become the norm, but you know, you are offering true hospitality to them by offering them food.

    Scott (1:20:08)

    I'm offering them food like I've had. I've had my daughters help me like wrapping veggie hummus wraps and stuff and chicken Caesar salad wraps like I'll go to Sam's Club and like alright guys, we got five bands. Let's sit down. It's 8 o'clock in the morning. The shows at two. Let's start making sandwiches.

    Max Kozol (1:20:16)

    wow.

    That's awesome, that's amazing. I wish that was the norm. I know that a lot of the larger venues have kitchens and a lot of the smaller venues don't. And it becomes tricky because of that. But like, I feel like that would save so much money and time and also just offer a much more enjoyable experience for the touring act.

    Scott (1:20:49)

    Yeah, when I did shows at this place called Charm City Art Space in Baltimore, my wife and I, did a thing called Mom and Pop Productions and we'd make a crock pot of vegan chili every show.

    Max Kozol (1:20:59)

    that sounds amazing.

    Scott (1:21:00)

    crockpot of vegan chili every show. We would have like Morningstar burger crumbles and stuff like that and this is like 2005 so that stuff is still relatively new back then. You know we just we'd cool her full of sodas because it was an all-ages sober place and then we'd hand them a when they when the show was over the touring band we'd hand them a loaf of bread I think a peanut butter and jelly and here you go this is for the road.

    Max Kozol (1:21:24)

    That's sweet. That's so nice. I'm not a-

    Scott (1:21:25)

    I like, can't guarantee

    you any food, but I can guarantee you a place to stay, some food, kindness and love.

    Max Kozol (1:21:29)

    Yeah.

    That's what most, that should be what the bare minimum is, really, yeah. And it's hard because I don't have, Boston's such a weird city, I don't really have a lot of places I can host acts. Colin has been very gracious to occasionally host a touring act if they need it in his space. But it's so hard to try and stay on top of all of it. This city is fucking expensive.

    Scott (1:21:37)

    It should be right.

    Max Kozol (1:22:01)

    To be very clear, just to give you an idea, we're usually very upfront about this at the Middle East. I would say the most middle level room which gets booked the most, the upstairs, fits just under 200 people. 200 capacity room is not a small deal. It's still quite expensive to try and upkeep. And...

    Scott (1:22:03)

    I'm fully aware.

    Max Kozol (1:22:29)

    They do very interesting deal structures here where they just want to make enough money from ticket sales. Like it's the opposite of what you're saying where they just want to make enough money from ticket sales to cover the bare minimum of what they need. So their deals are usually around 100 % after 600.

    Scott (1:22:51)

    That's crazy like 600 is really high.

    Max Kozol (1:22:54)

    600 is really high, that's why the tickets are not allowed to be any lower than 15.

    Scott (1:22:58)

    Which I get.

    Max Kozol (1:22:59)

    But the reason behind it makes it make sense. Cambridge is a fucking expensive city because it is attached to Harvard.

    Scott (1:23:09)

    But that just means that you don't book a 200 capacity room if you can't make it, if you can't put 200 people in there. Right? Like that's always the issue I have. Like when a touring band will come through and say they want $1,000 and I'm like, well, this venue holds 150 people at 20 bucks a head. If you think you're going to even get a hundred people in here and I'm offering you 70 % of the door. If you think you can get a hundred people in here, you're going to make more than a thousand.

    Max Kozol (1:23:15)

    Exactly.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, a door deal is... Yeah.

    Scott (1:23:39)

    So you should agree to the 70%. And if

    they don't, then I'm like, you don't think you can pull 100 people. And if you can't pull 100 people, then you shouldn't be booking my venue.

    Max Kozol (1:23:51)

    Fair enough. Yeah.

    Scott (1:23:52)

    I'm just saying,

    you can't, like, it has to make sense for both of us. Like, I don't mind losing some money. And I apologize for listeners that have heard me say this before, but I'm gonna say it again, because it really matters. One, I'm building community. Two, I run a record label. I have a lot of bands on my label, and this promotes my record label more than anything else I do.

    Max Kozol (1:24:10)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:24:18)

    Putting out records does fine, like putting social media, but having shows all the time and connecting with people really does promote my record label the best. And then three, this is the one that's most important to me. Some fucking time there's a band from Boston or Philadelphia or Baltimore that I really wanna fucking see, but I ain't got no time to drive to fucking Boston or Baltimore to go see them. And if I did, if I drove there and saw the band, spent the night in a hotel and drove back,

    it would cost me more than the $100 I'm spending on hospitality to buy all the band's pizza. So if I lose a fucking $100, then I lose a fucking $100 and I got to see not just the band from Baltimore that I wanted to see, but also four other fucking bands that I booked and I had a great fucking night and I'm only 15 minutes from home.

    Max Kozol (1:25:04)

    And that's fucking awesome. That's what it fucking is. I love that anybody can pick up show booking if they wanted to.

    Scott (1:25:05)

    And that's fucking great. Right?

    I don't know

    why more people don't.

    Max Kozol (1:25:16)

    People see this wall is what I've learned. It's a lot of information and it's time consuming and it's exhausting. The amount of coordination, because it's advanced party planning and there's a lot of numbers that get blown around. Touring acts are sometimes a little fickle to work with. It's very tricky, but it's possible.

    Scott (1:25:39)

    It's possible. When you mentioned earlier that you were the host, it reminded me of like my wedding planner when my wife and I got married and like we got married and had our reception at the same restaurant. like there was an in-house wedding person. She's like, she just managed everything. I was like, that's my fucking job. Except instead of weddings, I'm putting on fucking punk rock bands. I'm just a fucking glorified wedding planner.

    Max Kozol (1:25:55)

    Yeah.

    Exactly, but you're a fucking baller. Wedding planner is the best part about it.

    Scott (1:26:04)

    But like the thing is anyone could do this and when people compliment me like you do great shows like but like it's not that hard like yes yes there's a lot you said right there's a lot that goes into it but I didn't do it this well when I started doing it 30 years ago I guarantee you my first shows when I did when I was 17 sucked ass but I learned and I got better and I got better and I got

    organized and I got more thoughtful and more considerate and I promoted better like everything in between but just fucking do it.

    Max Kozol (1:26:33)

    Hmm.

    yeah, it becomes a grind if you let it become a grind. If you're doing it as a passion, take it seriously. It's possible. One of the biggest things I've learned though is don't get hung up on a band if they're not locking.

    Scott (1:27:01)

    Oh yeah, if a band isn't gonna like come through, that's fine. Just move on. You know, I will ask a band. I will do like, all right, I'm booking May right now. I'm finishing up one show in May and I have one slot left. I'm like, I'm gonna offer you the date and I'm gonna follow up two, three times max. After three times the follow up, if you don't have a thing for now, was like, cool, just so you know, I'm gonna start asking other bands if you get back to me before another band confirms.

    You're still on the bill, but I have to start asking other bands because I have now followed up with you three times and no disrespect.

    Max Kozol (1:27:40)

    It's wasting your time, your money, and everybody else's who's involved.

    Scott (1:27:44)

    Yeah, I want you on the bill, but if you can't make the state and that's totally fine that you can, I'm not hurt. It's not offensive. You have three or four people in your band that all have lives that are complicated. It's fine.

    Max Kozol (1:27:58)

    Yeah. And it doesn't stop me from wanting to work with them in the future as well.

    Scott (1:28:02)

    No,

    bands can even cancel on me day of and I still don't get upset with them because there's usually one member of the band and unless they're dicks about it, I'm like, it happens. Like it happens.

    Max Kozol (1:28:12)

    Yeah, yeah.

    I'm not gonna like hold it against most people most of the time. There unfortunately have been a few and I won't name any names that have like hit me in ways that I'm like, this like actually sucks. Like this not only puts my name on the line, but everybody else who played the bill and the venue.

    Scott (1:28:36)

    That's unfortunate. And that's one of the reasons also that I bought my own back line last April. Like I already had my own drum set, but now I have two guitar cabs and a bass cab. Cause I used to get bands to bring their own shit. But then I had a band cancel that was supposed to bring shit. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about.

    Max Kozol (1:28:45)

    wow.

    I do and it's awful because having to coordinate who's doing what is a nightmare and Most venues don't have the budget to upkeep a back line

    Scott (1:29:00)

    It's fucking awful.

    No, no, I literally have my own that I bring with me in my fucking minivan.

    Max Kozol (1:29:11)

    my god, that's a nightmare.

    Scott (1:29:12)

    I hate it. If I had to bring the entire back line, cause I try and get the bands to bring theirs instead. And I'll sometimes still put mine. If it's especially if the band that's like, says you're going to back line the guitar or drums, like the cab or the drums is coming from out of state. I'm like, you mean well, but you might get stuck on 95 in an accident. So I'm going to bring mine as a backup on the off chance that you're not on time.

    Max Kozol (1:29:33)

    Yeah.

    It's... it's so dangerous depending on the situation.

    Scott (1:29:41)

    Right?

    It does happen.

    Max Kozol (1:29:45)

    It's, there's been times where like the entire show has gotten held up just because a kick drum was missing. Just a kick drum.

    Scott (1:29:56)

    It's all it takes though. remember I was playing a show in DC, was a reunion show with the Twats. Right after I moved here in January 20, 2023, and we were playing with Submachine from Pittsburgh, who I've loved since I was like just out of high school. And everyone was using their shit, but their shit is fucking old, because I'm fucking old. And there are five bands, first band played, my band went to go on.

    We have two guitarists, they had two guitar cabs. My guitarist went to plug his head into the back of the cab and the jack just fell into the casing. was like.

    So then we had to send someone out on a Friday night in the streets of D.C. It's just like being in Boston, right? Like, go find us a guitar cab.

    Max Kozol (1:30:43)

    Yeah.

    Just anywhere, you know.

    Scott (1:30:47)

    Anywhere

    even if you can find someone that's only like five blocks away five blocks away in the city on a Friday night could take like 40 minutes

    Max Kozol (1:30:56)

    Nightmare. my god.

    Scott (1:30:57)

    So we had to wait

    for them to get back because the show could not go on because every band needed two guitar caps.

    Max Kozol (1:31:03)

    yeah.

    Scott (1:31:05)

    It was fucking awful.

    Max Kozol (1:31:08)

    There was a time Trophy Husband was on tour where this was one of the weirdest situations I'd ever been in. know, we're on tour, we can't bring all the fucking stands for the kit. That would be insane. But this situation literally caused us to have to bring all the stands everywhere we go from now on, when it was a band. Because there was a person who wouldn't let us share cymbal stands.

    It's like...

    Scott (1:31:38)

    Why would they not let you show a symbol stance?

    Max Kozol (1:31:40)

    They were worried we were going to break them.

    Scott (1:31:43)

    Shut the fuck up.

    Max Kozol (1:31:46)

    Maybe if it was like cymbals or drums like like like a snare sure yeah fucking your stands your pieces of metal

    Scott (1:31:57)

    What?

    Max Kozol (1:31:58)

    Yeah!

    Scott (1:31:59)

    Who doesn't share their stands?

    Max Kozol (1:32:02)

    They were like, I don't literally, I don't know. was a DIY venue in Binghamton, no less.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:32:13)

    That is

    so fucking weird. I played a DIY space 123 fake street and then Cobra La but that would have been like 25 years ago.

    Max Kozol (1:32:23)

    I don't think the space is running anymore. The only place I know in Binghamton that's still running is the Bundy.

    Scott (1:32:25)

    Yeah.

    So, but like, I mean, I load my shit out all the time. I don't even care. I load out my cymbals, I load out my snare drum. I don't really care. I hit really hard. I'm stupidly abusive. I don't have good technique. I stand up and smash down on my cymbals. If my cymbal break because you hit it, it would have broken when I hit it the next day. It's fine. That's my general thought.

    Max Kozol (1:32:37)

    I'm like-

    Okay,

    I get a little hesitant because I had a friend who lost my bass cab on the train.

    Scott (1:32:55)

    Well, that's not the show. That's your...

    Max Kozol (1:32:56)

    Hahaha

    Yeah, yeah. He, he, he fucking, I, I sometimes I'll let people rent my bass cab because like, you know, it's a city, not everybody can have all their gear. And he's coming back from a show and he gets his stuff, walks off the train and then the train door shuts and he turns around and it's, it's kind like the slow motion sad music. It's, it's riding off into the distance. Yeah.

    Scott (1:33:24)

    That is awful. It makes you feel better.

    I left my bass player south of the border for like five hours, so.

    Max Kozol (1:33:30)

    What? How does that happen?

    Scott (1:33:33)

    So we had played Wilmington, North Carolina, and we had consumed sufficient amounts of alcohol that when we, despite my saying I'm not drinking that much, this is where the band got a two drink maximum before we played, because they burned a CDR of us playing and we did not sound as good as we thought we did. But needless to say, the next morning we woke up and we were driving from North Carolina and we were going to go to Chattanooga, Tennessee and we went through South Carolina and we stopped at the of the border.

    Max Kozol (1:33:36)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:34:03)

    You know what South of the Border is? It's like an entire like tourist stop just between the North Carolina, South Carolina border. It's all like Mexican, South, know, Tex-Mex. It's super like cheesy and probably even a little bit racist. You know, it's America. So yeah.

    Max Kozol (1:34:05)

    It's a restaurant, right?

    okay.

    Okay.

    likely.

    Scott (1:34:28)

    So my wife and I got out and we did a little shopping and looked at the sombreros and all the things that are like totally like ridiculous and stupid. And we got back in the van and we had like an eight, you know, 12 passenger Ford E-150 van and we started driving and we had two, we had a bass player and guitarist in the van and the guitarist was in the middle row asleep and the bass player was in the very back row. We did not know that he got out to take a shit and he left his phone in the van.

    Max Kozol (1:34:51)

    Noooo

    no!

    Scott (1:34:59)

    And he doesn't have our numbers memorized. And this is like pre internet era, like internet barely existed. And so he's calling his wife, like, collect and, know, trying to get her to pick up the phone to get our number. By the time he gets to us, we're already four hours away.

    Max Kozol (1:35:05)

    He's done. He's cooked.

    my god.

    Scott (1:35:19)

    So we have to double

    back four hours back to get him and then drive another four hours to get back where we were. And we're still trying to get to Chattanooga on time to play the show. At which point now I've already driven like eight hours. I'm like, I need to stop driving. I'm exhausted. So I like, it's my turn to sleep and I sleep and then I wake up and I look and there's like ice on our antenna and I can just look outside and I can see like ice on the road. And I also look at the car. We're going like 90 miles an hour. And I'm like,

    Max Kozol (1:35:32)

    Yeah.

    my God.

    Scott (1:35:48)

    And that's what I said. And my guitarist was like, nah, I got mad skills. I'm like, you know, this is rear wheel drive, right? He's like, what does that mean? I was like, I have to pee. I have to pee really bad. And he pulls over and he's like, we're never gonna make this show. I'm like, it's fine. I was like, okay, I still can't drive, but he cannot drive. Someone else has to drive because he's gonna kill us. And so the bass player took over and drove and drove much, much, much slower.

    Max Kozol (1:35:50)

    Hahaha!

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:36:14)

    And then we got right around Atlanta and there was like a five car, five lane pile up on like, and we just couldn't get to the show. We had shitty Mexican and got a hotel and was done. but then five days later, our guitarist was parking at the Starbucks he worked at, hits a patch of ice and totals his Honda Civic. The guy that said he had mad skills and would be fine. And like literally parking his car going like 10 miles an hour destroyed it. And he was driving 90 miles an hour while I was sleeping without a seatbelt.

    Max Kozol (1:36:14)

    Okay.

    I'm not there anymore.

    Scott (1:36:42)

    and a car loaded up with more equipment than I could, like, if that car flipped, I was dead.

    Max Kozol (1:36:48)

    my god. The dangers we do for our art.

    Scott (1:36:52)

    I didn't know I was in danger. I mean, I knew I was in danger, but I didn't know was in danger. It's like who the fuck drives 90 miles an hour on an icy road in an Ford F, like, a 12 passenger van.

    Max Kozol (1:37:00)

    Yeah, my god, I'm glad you're here.

    Yeah, what?

    What? my-

    Scott (1:37:11)

    Like they

    write they do they write stories about this like this is how Cliff Burton and died in Metallica like this. You know what I'm saying? Like this is just like.

    Max Kozol (1:37:21)

    You don't want to end up

    on the next true crime podcast.

    Scott (1:37:25)

    Yeah, it's like did you hear the one about the the band with the van flipped over the people died? I was like, yeah. Yeah, we've all heard that one Don't fucking do it

    Max Kozol (1:37:33)

    my god.

    Musicians are some of the most genius idiots I've ever met.

    Scott (1:37:41)

    Yes, that is a great description. Genius idiots. I'm like, you are so smart. Like this guy that was driving, he now has like his PhD from Stanford in like geology and designs like space glass like glass that can withstand, like super, super smart.

    Max Kozol (1:37:53)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:38:02)

    He was gonna kill us all.

    Max Kozol (1:38:07)

    I'm sure you have your your big fat load of funny band stories from when you're on tour. I do but I genuinely feel like my time in Trophy Husband was just Like it was out of a movie with I could not genuinely I could not believe it. This is not my endorsement of

    Scott (1:38:05)

    He was gonna kill us all.

    so many. Nobody wants to hear those though.

    Max Kozol (1:38:31)

    me saying like, go listen to this music, go do your deep dive on us. You don't have to do that. But it's more like just, I always have a story to tell from this that I would love to share if you would be open to hearing one.

    Scott (1:38:45)

    I would love to hear it. We don't normally allow band stories, but I just sold a band story, so fuck you. Everyone, I know this is scene support, but we're gonna go ahead and listen to a band story, so it's just gonna happen. Suck it up, Buttercup.

    Max Kozol (1:38:50)

    Yeah, why not?

    So,

    unfortunately I'm not really as connected with these people as I used to have been, but I'm going to make sure that I'm putting them in the most accurate light possible as they would want to be. So this band had myself and two of the most interesting guitar players I have ever met, interesting in a way of, they did everything for the band.

    Genuinely anything and everything for the bit. They had a game that they would like to play called Defeating Social Anxiety. Where they would just go up to strangers and just see what the most fucked up thing they could do was and get away with it. So one of the guitar players, his name is Tyler, he's off doing other band things now, he's living his life. Good for him. But at this very moment, we are at a rest stop on tour, hitting a McDonald’s.

    Scott (1:39:32)

    I like it already.

    Max Kozol (1:39:54)

    and he steps in and I'm going to recreate his voice. He goes up to the guy, he goes at the counter, hi, what's your name? Guy's name is George. Can I have some apple slices, George? Buys them for like, he buys apple slices and chocolate milk as a normal person would. And before going anywhere, he just looks, would you like an apple slice, George? And they start going back and forth.

    Scott (1:40:05)

    Max Kozol (1:40:24)

    fighting and fighting to the point where like George is like, you need to leave. Tyler basically gets dragged away by the other guitar player right at the door. He turns around, just has the word of God comes out. can, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink George. And out the door he goes.

    Scott (1:40:47)

    the fuck is that? That's crazy!

    Max Kozol (1:40:48)

    I don't know!

    I don't know!

    Scott (1:40:51)

    I love it. I love it.

    Max Kozol (1:40:53)

    haha

    I, there's a million stories I could tell. That's the one that I love telling though.

    Scott (1:40:58)

    Okay.

    That's a great story. Speaking of stories, do you have any stories as a promoter of bands that have either been like the greatest pit bands you've ever worked with? And like, can't more bands do this? Like this was beyond the pale of how a band can behave or should behave and vice versa. And we'll just say positive. I could ask about the negative ones, but let's not go there. We're going to, we're going to focus on positivity in the last, in this last round of questions here.

    Max Kozol (1:41:18)

    Yeah!

    This is homey vibes.

    Yeah. Well, I guess this is gonna include some band call-outs, which I wanted to do anyway. Cinemaster from Connecticut. Amazing human beings and so kind and wonderful to work with with setting up some shows for them. I'm now working on finalizing their second show in Boston. Like my second show hosting them in Boston. And every single time they wanna have a fun poster.

    Scott (1:41:33)

    Fuck yeah! Let's do that shit.

    Yeah.

    Max Kozol (1:41:55)

    So I actually got to get creative and make a Sonic themed poster. And this one is, this upcoming one is a Garfield themed poster. You know, just the classics. My homies from New Jersey, Shark Earrings, awesome emo band. They, I basically, we were tour best friends for a while and I think they are also like family to me. They just do it for the love of the game. They came all the way up to Boston for a single show.

    Scott (1:42:04)

    care.

    Max Kozol (1:42:24)

    Just cuz. And they are so easy to work with, they're so friendly. understand, like, I guess really the biggest thing is like a band who understands that maybe the, like, a newer show, playing a show to a scene that's new to them is not going to necessarily be amazing, it's going to be okay. And they understood that, and they still fucking killed it, you know, and it was only like half cap.

    Scott (1:42:44)

    Yeah. Fuck yeah.

    Max Kozol (1:42:52)

    in O’Brien’s, which is maybe like 40 people. But it was one of my favorite shows I've ever seen them do. Yeah, a couple other band call-outs that I could just give out randomly, I guess. Yeah, up in Rochester, Haishen, they're so fucking awesome. They're prog metal, but it's based in the lead guitarist's Chinese

    Scott (1:43:00)

    I love that.

    Yeah, call the fucking bears I do, let's do this.

    Max Kozol (1:43:21)

    background and heritage. It's so fucking cool. Who else can I mention? I would, mean, Boston locals for sure would, oh, now I'm totally blanking. I need to just like think for a moment. I'm so sorry as I ramble. I mean, Hot Slander actually. They're a local band that's.

    Scott (1:43:38)

    Don't stress it. It's all good. When you get put on the spot, it's hard to think of things.

    Max Kozol (1:43:50)

    really just starting to break out right now and they are so unique, they're so cool. They pull up to any show and they full-assed. They'll have like full on costumes and face paint and they have a death whistle and a theremin on stage and they're playing this awesome rock music. Borzoi, they're homies as well. Awesome, amazing like stoner metal but prog metal like combination band. They're delicious sounding.

    Scott (1:44:06)

    love it.

    Max Kozol (1:44:20)

    Brownie Points as well. They're this insane, absolutely mind-boggling emo band that just like, it's like if emo, emo, wow, if emo and I don't fuck math rock. I guess emo and math rock already had a baby, but if that baby had another baby

    Scott (1:44:42)

    conjoined twin, perhaps. Yes.

    Max Kozol (1:44:43)

    Exactly, yeah.

    And I could name a billion more, I'm sure, but like those are the people that are definitely just popping to the top of my head right now. And there's always bands that I'll go back to and just immediately hit up like, hey, can you guys do this? Anybody who I ever do that for, if you have like been on my list of bands that I'll just hit up like, can you fill this? You're awesome. You're an amazing band that I would love to continue working with.

    Scott (1:45:11)

    Yeah, it's a tricky thing, right? Because you always wanna keep bringing new bands in. And like my monthly shows at Snappers that I've only been doing a little over a year now, I'm very proud to say that on those Sunday monthly shows between January of last year and January of this year, I only repeated one band.

    Max Kozol (1:45:16)

    Yeah.

    Really? Wow, that's impressive. Yeah.

    Scott (1:45:32)

    That's really hard to do.

    I mean, I do tend to only have two local bands. I usually have a local band open and a local band closed, where then I sandwich it with three out of town bands or regional bands.

    Max Kozol (1:45:44)

    Mmm. my god. Yeah, that makes sense

    Scott (1:45:45)

    So that that's

    basically my formula. Sometimes there's three local bands, but like my goal is basically to get like out of town bands. That's why the shows end at nine o'clock. So even if you're from Philly, leave at 10 o'clock. You'll get home by one a.m. And who hasn't gotten home at one a.m. on a Tuesday night show? So it's just you have a three hour drive, but you're still just pretend you're playing a Tuesday night show.

    Max Kozol (1:46:07)

    Yeah, fuck yeah.

    Scott (1:46:09)

    That's

    my perspective on it. But like, you know, it's, but then I do shows other places. And it's those bands that I asked to play those other places that are the ones I really dig because I saw you and once I saw you at my Sunday shows and I either saw you on stage and or talk to you and I fell in love with you as people on top of liking your music.

    Max Kozol (1:46:11)

    real.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:46:35)

    And you're the ones that are getting those extra slots outside of the Sundays. Those are the ones where like, I am booking you because I personally want to see you again.

    Max Kozol (1:46:35)

    Yeah.

    absolutely.

    Yes, I completely agree. think Hot Slander, like I mentioned before, they're one of those bands, like they deserve that. They are such a unique band. This other band, Local, here, Nicoteens, they deserve all the love. They've become amazing homies. And I filled it on bass for them once before. It's biased a little bit, obviously, but when I'm not playing with them, they are such an amazing emo band. They're so good. my God, I could...

    scream. And then one last call out, promise I will after this one. Have Fun. Chris from Have Fun, this is going out to you directly. You have single-handedly helped me connect so much with the pop-punk scene here and help out so many bands time and time again. You are amazing. That's all I gotta say.

    Scott (1:47:23)

    It's all good. Call out.

    Yeah, you know what it's and anyone you didn't mention you're still you still respect them and love them It's it's hard. I've done interviews before where I always mean to call out everybody under the Sun and A name gets missed and like it's never intentional. You have brain farts So if max didn't mention you make sure you know that max loves you. It's fine And they'll mention you next time like max isn't sitting with cue cards trying to recall everybody they didn't they didn't prepare a prepare a list so

    Max Kozol (1:47:49)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Absolutely.

    No.

    Scott (1:48:12)

    All right,

    Max, I have to tell you, I never go much past an hour and we have now talked an hour and 48 minutes. Well, I've just really enjoyed you. Like I feel like you and I can just hang out all night long. And I would love to, but I am sure my wife's like, where the fuck is my husband? And like my listeners are like his podcasts are never this fucking long. He's like other people like he cut us off after an hour and 20 minutes because he said he doesn't go that long. Why the fuck is he talking to this person for an hour and 15 minutes?

    Max Kozol (1:48:18)

    Yeah, this is wild. I was like, I was only expecting that. I would love to. Yeah.

    I'm so sorry.

    my god.

    Look, it's been an absolute pleasure getting to talk to you.

    Scott (1:48:45)

    It absolutely has.

    you're going to provide me some links so I can put it in the description of the show so you can reach out to max, whether it's Broken String or whatever you want me to use, whether you want me to put like Middle East in there, you decide what you want. Max is fabulous. I, I've been working with them now for like meow, meow store and the reason they're on this show and cause I booked seven tours.

    Max Kozol (1:48:49)

    Yes.

    Scott (1:49:14)

    in the last year for bands and I think I've had three promoters from those seven tours because there's only been three promoters that I've worked with that like in our communications I was impressed enough was like this is someone I want to have on there and hot and and highlighted spotlight the fucking awesome work that they're doing so fuck yeah thank you for being on please please follow what max is doing

    Max Kozol (1:49:31)

    You're genuinely too sweet. my god, thank you so much.

    Scott (1:49:41)

    Reach out to her for shows. If you're at, if you live in Boston, go to her fucking shows. That's how scenes fucking work. So fucking do that. And if you don't go to shows and start going to shows, form a fucking band, do something like be part of the scene, start booking shows, do it yourself. DIY do it yourself. I know that's like a same thing. That's like been common, but like when I was saying that phrase in 92, it was like a new phrase. It wasn't all like Tik Toky. It was like a real thing. Like do it yourself. Um, and

    Max Kozol (1:49:48)

    Yes.

    yeah, big time.

    Scott (1:50:11)

    You know, if you're interested in the shit I'm doing, it's gonna be in the description, DCxPCLive.com. Please subscribe to the video, whether you're streaming this on one of your audio streaming fucking things or you're watching it on YouTube. If you like live vinyl, check it out. If you like shows in Hudson Valley, DCXPCLive.com. And I have to say thank you to Trev from Struggling Artist, fucking A, Struggling Artist Record Club. I'm gonna get this right. Sorry Trev, I really should do better than this. He's my executive producer.

    Max Kozol (1:50:38)

    Scott (1:50:41)

    Sorry, he has a struggling artist podcast, which is great, but he also has a struggling artist record club and it's located in Boston area. Yeah. So Trev is fucking great. He's in definitely Eastern Massachusetts. It used to be run by one of the dudes in the ducky boys, uh, like street punk, OY band, but now Trev runs it and a struggling artist record club. You sign up. He curates a set of fucking solid ass records. I would love to say that he has a DCxPC live record in every box, but he's only gotten one of my records once.

    Max Kozol (1:50:43)

    Okay.

    No way.

    Scott (1:51:10)

    That's right out of 50 fucking records, he only picked one so far. It's fine, Trev. We're friends, but like, yeah, dude, seriously, only one? One fucking record? That's all I rate? Like, I'm one 50th good enough to be in your fucking record club?

    Max Kozol (1:51:13)

    Fuck.

    Scott (1:51:27)

    I do love you, buddy. I do love you.

    Max Kozol (1:51:30)

    This targeted.

    Scott (1:51:32)

    It is! Like, he literally is going to have listen to this and edit this too, right?

    Max Kozol (1:51:39)

    my god.

    Scott (1:51:41)

    He does do like folk punk shows in his house, wherever it is. I haven't made it up there yet. So like he's super rad dude. Check out struggling artists podcast, struggling as record club. Check out Max and Broken String and Middle East and O’Brien’s and DCxPC live. Thank you all for listening. Sorry. I rambled so much. I'm glad you hung out because Max is fucking great. And I'm going to have one of these days. I'm to like all three or four or five promoters I've ever talked to. We're going to like a group promoter, like sit down, chat.

    Max Kozol (1:51:44)

    How awesome.

    Scott (1:52:07)

    we're all just gonna like a back and forth and it's gonna be like this big uh bacchanalia bacchanalia is that the right word i'm looking for yeah like the thing with like uh Dionysus and stuff like that where it's like we're not gonna like wine's gonna be flowing we're all just gonna hang around talking about like being promoters

    Max Kozol (1:52:13)

    yeah, sure.

    Hell yeah. That sounds amazing.

    Scott (1:52:27)

    Sounds amazing. Bye everyone. Have a good night. Thank you Max. It's a pleasure, buddy.

    Max Kozol (1:52:31)

    Thank you so much.

  • Episode 31: Nathan “Nate” Harris, Nate Show Booking / Leg Drop Productions

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we’re here to give credit where it’s long overdue.

    I’m your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal albums. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going. Today’s guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out.

    This week on Scene Support, I’m sitting down with Nathan “Nate” Harris, a New York-based promoter and show booker who has built a reputation for curating diverse lineups and creating space for bands and communities that do not always get centered. Born in the early 90s in Brooklyn, New York, he started booking shows in 2017 at Gussy’s Bar in Queens, putting together a Halloween event that quickly turned into something bigger.

    Not long after that, he co-founded Leg Drop Productions with Rachel Francis. In 2023, he joined Punk Island, where he focused on organizing shows featuring Black-fronted acts through the Sister Rosetta Stage. Since then, Nate has continued booking primarily within the punk community, building momentum under the name Nate Show Booking and collaborating with other organizations and events like Punks for Palestine and Break Free Fest, among others.

    Today we’re going to get into how it started, how he thinks about building lineups with intention, and what it takes to keep shows going while staying rooted in community.

    How are you doing, Nate?

    Nate (01:39)

    I’m honestly pretty good. I’m honored to be interviewed by you. I would be lying if I said you weren’t a major influence on everything I do right now.

    Scott (01:52)

    That is incredibly kind of you, but you’ve been doing this forever though.

    Nate (01:57)

    Yeah. So, quick tidbit. I started booking for my first band, Embrace the Downside. It was a metalcore band that I played drums for. That’s kind of how I got my start. We didn’t really know a lot of bookers because a lot of us were just getting our feet wet.

    I already had experience helping with family events and church events, so I used that knowledge and applied it to show booking. Some of the friends I made played in bands, so I just reached out.

    What was ironic was that there were two bands that reached out to us asking if we could put together a show in New York. One of them changed their name, but I think they go by Take the Name or Take Back the Name now. The other band was Divide the Fall, or Divide something. They were two metalcore bands. I do not remember the exact names off the top of my head, but they asked if we could put on a show for them in New York.

    The only venue I had a connection with at the time was Gussy’s. It was this venue at the far end of Queens. It was definitely hit or miss, but when it hit, it hit. It was a really cool venue and really small. It fit about 50 people.

    The patrons there were really cool. The guy who owned the bar let a whole bunch of us in our early and mid-twenties book shows there. He didn’t care whether we drew or not. He just wanted us to have shows there. That first show was on Halloween, so I put the whole thing together.

    Surprisingly enough, it was the first and most successful show I had ever put together. I made sure I didn’t take a single dime. I just made sure the touring bands especially were taken care of.

    Scott (04:34)

    That sounds like a promoter right there, because it is very rare that I ever get paid out of the shows I do.

    Nate (04:49)

    Even now, I stick to that. I don’t really think about taking anything. I just make sure the bands are good, especially if it’s a traveling band. If there’s a guarantee or whatever is made at the door, I’m like, here, you take it.

    Scott (05:07)

    I’ve considered trying to at least make back the money for flyers and posters. That’s probably because I did so many shows last year. I did 35. If I go back 15 years, I probably would have done five shows in a year. Losing money on flyers for five shows is not a big deal. Multiply that by 35, and it suddenly seems like a real deal.

    Nate (05:13)

    Yeah. For me, the important thing is making sure the bands are good and the people who come through are good and safe. I always make a point to make myself available. If something comes up or anything is happening, people can talk to me and let me know.

    Scott (05:56)

    That’s fascinating because I think you basically gave the reason for booking, which is almost the same reason people give for starting a label or becoming a booker. My band needed to do this, and nobody was doing it, so we did it. That can mean starting a record label to put out your own record, or booking a show because your band needed one.

    But the number of bands out there that don’t book shows and just wait to be asked blows my mind. Maybe they are all better bands than me, because every band I was in had to hustle.

    Nate (06:28)

    I was in that situation early on, too. I didn’t really know how the whole thing worked. I had to learn by trial and error, or I had people come into my life and point me in the right direction. They would say, “Instead of doing this, do this.”

    Scott (07:01)

    It is a lot to learn. People say, “It’s just putting on a show,” and on one level they are right. But curating the right bands, communicating with the bands, making sure everyone feels safe, and making sure everyone gets taken care of at the end of the night is real work.

    Especially if you’re doing touring bands. I have friends who do local-band-only shows, and that’s different. The bands get whatever percentage of the door and drive 15 minutes home. But if you have a band driving eight hours and then driving eight hours again the next day, you want to make sure they get paid. They need gas money. They’re on tour. If you’ve ever been on tour, you know they need money.

    Nate (07:38)

    Yeah. If there was ever a show where the money didn’t come on time, or something happened, I’ll pay out of pocket. I don’t care.

    Scott (07:47)

    I’ve had shows where the venue gives me a check, and I tell the bands I’m just going to Venmo them or hand them cash right now because they need cash.

    Nate (08:02)

    I’ll usually keep money on the side the week of the show as an emergency. If something happens and the show doesn’t sell, I can still say, “All right, we didn’t sell, but here’s money out of my pocket.” I want to make sure they are covered.

    Scott (08:10)

    When I do most of my shows, I hand the door person a change bank. Usually there’s enough money in the change bank to cover the sound person and the minimum guarantee for the touring band. That part is already arranged.

    How do you decide what to book? I know I reached out to you for Meow Meow’s tour. Do you actively try to set up shows on a regular basis, or do you wait for people on tour to come to you? Do you do more local showcases? What’s your process for deciding how often and when to do shows?

    Nate (09:13)

    I like to say my process is a dartboard effect. I just kind of go based on whatever works.

    Usually I’ll think to myself, “Okay, I want to put a show together. What month feels good?” If I’m booking, I usually don’t book too early in the winter or too late in the winter, because especially as a musician, I feel like winter can be hit or miss depending on what shows and bands are playing.

    I usually don’t book until spring, or February would be my first outing, whether I’m booking through Leg Drop or doing something myself. Then I think about the theme. Do I want a mixed bill? Do I want something softer? Do I want to go straight up crazy? Usually I stick with mixed bills.

    Scott (10:40)

    I love mixed bills.

    Nate (10:43)

    Same. I think about what I’m feeling, and then I check everyone’s availability.

    Other times, people hit me up randomly. They’ll say, “Hey, we’ve got this show coming up,” or, “We’re trying to piece together a show.” Either I’ll help them book it, or if I can’t book it, I’ll point them in the right direction.

    Like I was able to do for your show in April, I’ll give you the information and say, “I can help put the show together, but it’s your show. I don’t want the credit. I don’t want my name on the marquee.” I’d rather help you make it what you want than put myself in a position where I’m booking for myself and for other people too.

    Scott (11:42)

    That was super kind of you. It gets hard. I just had a band reach out to me that I’m friends with and say they need a show on a certain date. I wish I could help, but I literally have a show in the same town the day before. Kingston is too small of a town. It is not New York City. I can’t promote another show under my name the next day and do a good job. But I can give them other promoters, a venue contact, and a list of bands they can ask.

    It’s not that I won’t come to the show or do what I can. I just don’t want to commit if I can’t do what I consider my job.

    Nate (12:57)

    Right. I have that dichotomy where I’m a show booker, but I’m also a musician. Sometimes I want to put more time and emphasis into being a musician than a booker. When that happens and people ask me for help, I’ll say I can help them set up the venue or put the bands together. And if I can’t make it, I’ll ask someone with experience to step in and keep an eye on things.

    This is something I’m learning to do: rely on people. That has been a hard lesson. I’ve learned to be more trusting. If there are things I can’t do, I put in the time to find people who have the experience and capability and say, “Hey, I got the show, but I can’t be present for it. Can you book this, or can you be there and make sure everyone is good?”

    Scott (14:30)

    Finding that is vital. I have one of those people. I’m sure you met Savannah. She’s great. There were a couple times last year where I had shows and couldn’t be there. I told her, “I need to help this band on tour. I have the lineup and the venue, but I’m vending at Camp Punksylvania and can’t be there. I need someone I trust to make sure the bands feel welcome, make sure the door and stage people have support, and be the problem solver.”

    She was like, “Yeah, I got you.” It’s amazing to have someone you can count on like that.

    Nate (15:22)

    When someone says they got you, that means, “All right, good. I’m keeping that person.”

    Scott (15:27)

    Exactly. Sometimes I’ll book things when I might not be around. Memorial Day weekend, I might be away with my wife and kids. So I’ll go to Savannah and say, “I’m going to book this. I want to be there, but if I cancel my family vacation because I booked a show, my 21-year marriage may come to an end. Can you do it if I need you?” And she’ll say, “Yeah, I got you.” I love her for that.

    Nate (15:57)

    After a while, being part of the music scene is amazing and I never want to take it for granted. But sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. You have other parts of your life that are important too. You have to make space not just for the scene, but to take care of yourself.

    Scott (16:27)

    Absolutely. I unplugged this entire weekend. I saw the emails and messages, but I just needed a weekend to not.

    Nate (16:37)

    That’s why I like to book far in advance. Booking in advance is great because then I don’t have to think about it until it’s time to promote. It lets me keep my availability open, so I have time to do more as a musician and take time for myself, spend time with my family, and have days to rest.

    Scott (18:01)

    You play in at least three bands, maybe four.

    Nate (18:14)

    Four.

    Scott (18:14)

    So if bands are booking three or four months out, which seems to be where bands are now, it makes sense. Everyone has lives to plan. I use the same sound guy for my shows, so booking far ahead means I usually get him first.

    Nate (18:57)

    Especially in New York, I book in advance because a lot of venues are booking up or getting shut down. Our Wicked Lady got shut down, and The Cobra and I think The Broadway Electric are getting shut down. Saint Vitus got shut down. A couple of other venues have either been shut down or are getting shut down. So we’re trying to make the most of the venues we have, especially the ones that can do all-ages shows.

    Scott (19:30)

    I prefer all ages, but it’s hard to find those.

    Nate (19:33)

    I do too. I like all-ages shows because I want to book shows that I wish I got to go to when I was younger. I never got to experience older venues like CBGB, L’Amour’s, ABC No Rio, and Coney Island High. Even when I was old enough, I wasn’t fully aware of the punk scene until college.

    I was aware of punk and hardcore music, but I grew up in a strict religious household. A lot of what I listened to had to be tucked away. I couldn’t go to my mom and say, “Hey, I’m going to go to this show.”

    My first metal show was Lamb of God, Testament, Killswitch Engage when Jesse rejoined, and Huntress. That was at Roseland Ballroom. When I told my mom I was going to see Lamb of God, she didn’t question it. She assumed it was a Christian concert. The ticket literally said Lamb of God and Testament. She missed the Killswitch part. I didn’t have to come up with a story.

    Scott (21:59)

    You were honest. She just didn’t ask clarifying questions, and you didn’t volunteer.

    Nate (22:03)

    Exactly. She told me to have a good time. And it was amazing. I got to see Lamb of God and Testament for the first time. Someone could take my metal card, but I had never really listened to Testament until that show.

    Scott (22:42)

    Different generation. I would have been stoked to see Testament.

    Nate (22:44)

    I was more into Anthrax, Sepultura, and crossover metal.

    Scott (22:55)

    Slayer, Megadeth, Suicidal Tendencies, Exodus, Voivod, Prong, D.R.I.

    Nate (22:58)

    Exactly, I was more into the crossover side. When I saw Testament, I was like, “Oh, this is really cool.” I still listen to them now.

    But getting back to the point, I didn’t get to experience CBGB or those venues. So I do all-ages shows as a way to heal that inner child that never got to go to those shows. I also want to give that experience to kids, especially Black and brown kids who grew up in similar circumstances. I wanted to give that experience back.

    Scott (24:19)

    That makes sense. I grew up in the DC area, so I went to the old 9:30 Club. All the shows I went to were all ages. I had never heard of the idea that shows couldn’t be all ages. So when I got older and heard a show was 21 and up, I was like, “What are you talking about? Why would a show ever be 21 and up?”

    Nate (25:01)

    My first underground show was connected to my homie Anthony. He was in a band called Elegant Gentlemen. They were kind of a nu-metal band at the time. He was booking shows and trying to get me and our friends to come out. I was in college and very into scenecore music, so I wanted to go.

    This was around 2010 or 2011. He gave me a flyer. I don’t remember the full lineup, but it was Elegant Gentlemen, Section 8, Zombie Fight, and another band. It was at New Amsterdam in Harlem, around 135th Street. It was this basement art-gallery space that was also a small church. The guy who rented it let us use the space.

    That show had me, a bunch of my friends from high school who were punk and goth kids, some college friends, and a bunch of people between about 18 and 25. It was all ages. It was my first all-ages show, and it was also the first show where I saw so many people of color there.

    That show was amazing. I moshed for the first time. I got to see some hardcore dancing. Zombie Fight stood out because they went first. They were the opening band, but they showed up late. They were the first band I saw in person fronted by a Black man. People went off. They were roundhouse kicking and doing the stickman. They were getting active.

    The guitarist had technical issues, and the guy who owned the building came downstairs yelling that we were too loud. He told the guitarist to turn down, and the guitarist was like, “How am I going to play? I can’t turn down any lower.” They ended up playing a short set, but it was still great.

    I bring that up because the singer of Zombie Fight is also the singer of None Above All, who I’ve been friends with for a long time. The guitarist of Zombie Fight was also the guitarist of Maafa, who I now play with. The singer’s name is Hillary, and the guitarist’s name is Anthony.

    Years later, I joined Maafa, and I was playing shows with Hillary in None Above All. When I turned 30, I was hanging out with Hillary, Flora, and some friends, and we were talking about our first shows. I brought up that story, and Hillary turned to me and said, “Wait, you were at that show?” And I said, “Yes, I was that little 19-year-old Black kid right there with you trying to get a shot.”

    Scott (30:18)

    That’s awesome. And now you’re playing with them and probably putting shows on together. That’s great.

    Nate (30:26)

    Since then, I’ve taken every experience and every person I meet as something that can mean something in the long run. A lot of what I do started as booking shows so my bands or bands in the scene could have a show. But it’s also been a healing experience, making fun shows that my younger self would have died to go to.

    Scott (31:10)

    It’s community. Even if I lose money, I’m spending it on something worthwhile. I’m building community, helping bands, and seeing bands I would have spent more than $200 to drive to Baltimore, stay overnight, and drive back to see. Instead, I bring them here. This is what I do. I don’t ski, golf, work on old cars, or have season tickets. This is how I engage with life.

    Nate (31:52)

    Same. This has been everything to me right now. Do I expect to do it forever? Not really. But I want to have as much fun doing it as possible.

    Scott (32:11)

    You might find yourself like me, turning 50 and still doing it.

    Nate (32:15)

    Maybe. I try not to dwell too much on the future, except for things I can improve on. Sometimes I remain positive as a way to keep myself motivated.

    Scott (32:35)

    Are there particular venues you prefer working with? Do you have a go-to space?

    Nate (32:55)

    Bridge and Tunnel has been a spot I’ve worked with for quite some time. Shout out to Rich. He plays in Dead Hammer Blow. I’ve worked with Bridge and Tunnel for quite a few great events.

    I’ve booked shows with Gary from Rat Milk and Soji. I love him too. Gary is another major influence on my booking. I’ve done a show there with MDC and Urban Waste, and that was amazing.

    Scott (34:04)

    You had them the night before I did. I had them in Poughkeepsie the next day. I heard your show was crazy.

    Nate (34:07)

    It was one of the best year-end shows I’ve ever done, but it sucked because after that show I got so sick. I had to go to the hospital because my mom and I were scared I had COVID. It wasn’t COVID. It was like a flu strain, but I had no voice for about a week and had to be on bed rest.

    It was one of the best shows I’ve put together. What’s funny is Dave from MDC left his mic. I still have it.

    Scott (35:11)

    When you see Gary at Rally in the Valley, MDC’s bass player Erica lives in Kingston. If they come out, you can give it to them.

    Nate (35:32)

    I’ll make sure to have it with me. I’ve also done shows for Body Farm and Minority Threat. Those are bands you should check out. They would be great for Reason and Ruckus or Snappers.

    Scott (36:13)

    I’ll write them down. I still want to bring up Butterbrain. I do one consistent monthly show, and then the other shows happen when bands are on tour. I try to build local-band sandwiches around touring bands.

    It’s hard, though. Sometimes people say, “You don’t book my band.” And I’m like, “I do one Sunday a month at one place, and for 12 months I never repeated a band. That’s five bands a month, or 60 bands in a year, without repeating a band.”

    Nate (36:55)

    You’re one person. You’re not a company. Local DIY bookers are not Live Nation. We can only do so much.

    Scott (37:10)

    Exactly. It helps if I like your music. It helps even more if I like you as a person.

    Nate (37:17)

    That’s a plus. If your music is good and I like you, that’s great.

    Scott (37:39)

    Flora and Creech are always sending me people. Sometimes it’s just about timing. A band might hit me too far ahead, and I’ll say I’ll keep them in mind, but then I forget because five other bands hit me up after that.

    Nate (38:14)

    That happens to me too. Bands will follow me, and I’ll check out their music. I’ll think, “Cool, I’ll keep you in mind.” If I don’t reach out, I’m not ignoring you. I just have other things.

    There are so many bands I want to bring from Philly, upstate, Chicago, and even Houston. The scene in Houston is incredible. Shout out to Jasmine from Lagrimas. I wish I was rich enough to bring some of those bands to New York.

    There was this three-piece Latino crossover thrash band I saw out there. I think they were called The Lunatics or something like that. They’re not a band anymore, which breaks my heart. They were brutal. The singer sounded almost like Max Cavalera. I told him that after their set and he said they had thought about covering “Troops of Doom.” I was like, “You should have.”

    There are so many incredible bands outside New York and outside the punk and hardcore scenes. I have an inquiring mind. I want to see what’s out there and what’s beyond the scene I’m in.

    Scott (41:06)

    Do you ever get something so outside your normal box that you have to bring on a co-promoter? I had that happen recently with a goth band called Academy Order from Tennessee. Great people and great band, but I had to ask Kev from Negative Raxxx because that was more his world. I wouldn’t have known where to start. Within a week he had the other bands and goth DJs.

    Nate (41:20)

    I’ve had that happen. I’ve reached out to people who own or book venues and said, “Hey, I’ve got this band. Can you check them out?” There are times I want to book straight hardcore and punk, but there are other times I want to do something lighter. With certain genres, I just don’t know what fans look for. I’ll say, “I want to help you, so let me send you to this person.”

    Scott (42:21)

    When you do it on your own, you do your best. I brought Jaelyn up from Philadelphia. They’re a prog-metal band fronted by a transgender woman. She’s fabulous. I wanted to find something that fit within the LGBTQ, queercore, or trans punk community, but I was still new to the area. I did my best, and it was fine.

    Nate (42:54)

    If I don’t know, I ask people from that scene for recommendations. I’m always willing to ask, even if it feels like something I should already know.

    Scott (43:07)

    That’s the process. Sometimes venues say, “You can have the date, but you need to find the local bands.” And I’m like, “What do I know about Savannah, Georgia?” Then I look at who has played the venue, listen to bands, reach out, and ask for help.

    Nate (43:35)

    That reminds me of a band called Auxilio. They’re an all-femme-fronted Latino crossover thrash band from LA. The homies recommended them, and they were coming through. I had some familiarity with crust and thrash, but not a ton. So I listened, reached out to Jogado and other bands, got Diablo from New Jersey on it, and it worked beautifully.

    That’s why you need an inquiring ear. Bands will come to you because they see that you book shows, even if they don’t know what you usually book. Sometimes I’m like, “I book hardcore bands. I’m sorry, I can’t do it.”

    Scott (45:16)

    I’ll do indie rock, post-punk, folk punk, singer-songwriter, and other stuff outside the box. But you should enjoy your own show.

    Nate (45:46)

    Exactly. It’s not that I wouldn’t book folk punk. My best friend Joe Mercado has a solo folk-punk project called Yell at God. They are a band I’ve been keeping my eye on. But that’s also why I like mixed bills. It helps.

    Scott (46:23)

    Every now and then I’ll book something I don’t personally listen to at home because the band has a great stage presence, a great show, nice people, and people enjoy them. I can put them on with a death metal band and a ska band because I want variety and I care about live energy.

    Nate (47:14)

    Streaming music is annoying. I had to take a reprieve from Spotify after hearing about them giving money to ICE. I don’t use Tidal, and I haven’t subscribed to Apple Music either.

    Scott (48:02)

    I struggle with all of that. The punk rocker in me says all of it is awful. But I also can’t get away from Meta because I run a record label and need to advertise my records and shows. My ad in Razorcake is not enough to sell records.

    Nate (48:09)

    I have the same battle. I use Bandcamp more than other platforms because that’s how I discover some crust and hardcore bands. But Spotify has become the thing people have to use to get music out there.

    Scott (49:07)

    WORLDSUCKS and I talked about that. They pulled their music from Spotify, but I told them their message is important. Every show they do is a benefit, and they donate money to causes. If Spotify gets the message out, take whatever money comes from it and donate it to something Spotify would hate.

    Nate (50:00)

    Right. There are bands I love that are for the cause and still have music on Spotify. There are other options too. With DistroKid, you can put it everywhere, but still promote Bandcamp as the main place. At the end of the day, you want to give listeners options.

    Scott (51:48)

    It’s hard to close yourself off. I say that as someone who only releases vinyl and always says no to CDs and tapes. That is more about my preference and not wanting to manage more formats.

    How do you promote your shows? Is it mostly posters, social media, email lists?

    Nate (52:03)

    I do everything through Instagram. The one benefit of social media now, besides Big Brother watching us, is that it gives us options to push flyers out more. I use collabs, tags, hashtags, and try to make it eye-catching.

    I don’t do a lot of street flyering because I don’t have time. I work a lot and I don’t have a car. I’m working on getting my driver’s license. Otherwise, that would help.

    For the Gaza / Punks for Palestine show, I worked with Under the Sun Collective and Mic Solidarity. They do amazing work building community, putting together resources, and spreading awareness about Palestine, Sudan, Gaza, and other places. We used all of our connections. Some people flyered, some promoted through social media, and some did it by word of mouth.

    One thing I wish I had more courage to do is what Diyami from Locked in Vacancy and ABC No Rio does. He’ll come to a show, stand outside near the end, and hand out flyers.

    Scott (54:55)

    That is probably the most effective thing to do. I usually print four handbills on one sheet, fold them up, and hand them out. Sometimes there is something on the back too. Going to shows and handing out flyers is intentional. You develop conversations and meet people.

    Nate (56:15)

    Flyering is a lost art, but people still do it. I’ve seen younger kids do it for underground shows, and some older punks still book shows that way too. They’ll use social media strategically, but there will be barely any information on the flyer. It’s intentional. It’s like, “Ask a punk for the location.”

    I’ve used some of that, especially with solo booking. What I really took from the punk scene was the sliding-scale method.

    Scott (58:16)

    Social media is practical because you can post every day, change the post, add photos, and keep pushing. But you still have to cut through all the noise. I have thousands of followers, but only a fraction see any one post.

    Nate (58:52)

    I don’t go completely by that metric system. Someone once told me to pay attention to when people look at your posts. If people look at your stuff at noon, post then. I still take some of that advice. If a post doesn’t get traction, I share it again later, wait, and share it again.

    People will come. People will show up.

    Scott (1:01:00)

    That is part of the benefit of collaborations. Do most bands you work with promote on their own?

    Nate (1:01:21)

    I’ve had times early on where I had to chase bands down and say, “Can you promote this?” I had one act that did not promote the show at all and didn’t show up. But now I’m blessed that most bands I work with are receptive and respectful.

    Sometimes you also have to give bands grace. Maybe they’re bigger, maybe they’re on tour, maybe there’s a radius clause. With Dog Breath, I wanted to work with them for a long time, and I got them on a Gaza show. They were on tour, and because of the radius clause we kept them as a surprise band until after their other show.

    Scott (1:04:59)

    That’s similar to what I did when Maafa was playing Tubby’s. You had the Tubby’s show in June or July, and Maafa was on my August show at Snappers. I told everyone not to share my show until after the Tubby’s show because I didn’t want to cause any issues. Six weeks was still enough time to promote.

    Nate (1:05:33)

    I remember that. And I love Tubby’s. It took me a while to realize Tubby’s was named after King Tubby. As a Jamaican, that was embarrassing.

    Scott (1:05:58)

    I didn’t realize that.

    Nate (1:06:08)

    They literally have a photo of him in the bathroom.

    Scott (1:06:13)

    How did I not figure that out? I’ve been in that bathroom so many times. I knew who the photo was, but I never connected it to the name of the venue.

    Nate (1:07:34)

    It’s all there. The reggae music, the photo, the crown, the name. But anyway, sometimes you just have to give bands grace. You don’t know what’s going on in people’s private lives. Maybe they’re going through something. I try not to make a big deal out of it. If they can’t promote something, I’m still tagging the band names. It’ll reach them one way or another.

    Scott (1:08:25)

    It’s the same if a band cancels or doesn’t get me something on time. Everyone has lives and they’re spinning plates. Being in a band is like being married to three people you wouldn’t date. You just don’t know what’s happening in people’s lives.

    Nate (1:09:24)

    That’s how I approach booking. Treat people like humans. Understand they have lives. Give them reassurance. Some people come with traumatic experiences from working with bookers and venues. You need to be aware of that too.

    Scott (1:10:54)

    That reminds me of when I worked with the Peace and Justice Institute as a DEI facilitator. We taught people to turn to wonder instead of judgment. I wonder what this person experienced that makes them see the situation this way. Listen to understand rather than to correct. A lot of empathy goes into doing this.

    You know Dragons at Noon?

    Nate (1:11:28)

    Yes. Lee, the singer of Dragons at Noon, was also in Zombie Fight. I think he played drums in that band and guitar in None Above All. I love Lee.

    Scott (1:11:41)

    They did a show for me, and Lee came up and said, “Hey Scott, I have a problem.” I said, “Yeah, what do you need? I got you.” And he said, “You said that with so much confidence and reassurance that I feel like you’re actually going to solve the problem. I haven’t even told you what it is yet.”

    I told him that’s my job. Whatever it is, we can fix it. It’s rare that a problem can’t be solved.

    Nate (1:12:16)

    I’ve had that experience too. A touring band didn’t have all their drum stuff, so I said I’d bring mine. They were surprised because the booker before had given them such a hard time. They said I was the only one who just said, “Yeah, share this.”

    Scott (1:12:51)

    It blows my mind when people won’t share and be kind. I was used to bands sharing backline in DC. Then I got to Florida and asked to borrow a bass amp for my band’s first show because our bass player’s amp blew right before. My guitarist thought they would say no, and the promoter treated me like it was unprofessional to even ask. That blew my mind because I loan out my drums so often it barely feels like I own them.

    Nate (1:13:58)

    Drummers can be protective of their stuff, especially cymbals. For good reasons. But I’ve let people use my cymbals plenty of times.

    Scott (1:14:28)

    My general thought is, if a cymbal broke because you hit it, it probably would have broken when I hit it.

    Nate (1:14:54)

    My hi-hat is all messed up. The top of it has a part that flaps up, but I’ve gotten compliments that it sounds trashy.

    Scott (1:15:17)

    If you want, I can bring my hi-hats to the show.

    Nate (1:15:25)

    No, I taped it down. DIY, baby.

    Scott (1:15:35)

    That’s hilarious.

    Nate (1:15:40)

    Someone gave me masking tape, and I just taped it. I heard the recording and it sounded great.

    But yes, I try to help bands with empathy. You’d be surprised how taken aback bands can be when you’re generous and empathetic. They’re used to corporate types who don’t care about them as humans.

    Scott (1:16:37)

    That’s what stands out about what you do. Anyone can put together shows. You can call a venue, book bands, make a flyer, and logistically pull it off. But not everyone treats bands with empathy and respect or creates safe spaces for bands and audiences. That’s why I asked you to be on the podcast.

    Nate (1:17:24)

    You just have to treat people the way you want people to treat you.

    Scott (1:17:32)

    Exactly. When I taught middle school, if a kid messed up, I would think about how I’d want someone to treat my own kid. I tried to make it a learning moment rather than making the punishment worse than the crime.

    Nate (1:19:21)

    Kindness. That’s what it comes down to.

    Scott (1:19:39)

    Kindness. It’s all about kindness. I could talk to you for hours, but you’re standing outside in the cold and I can see your breath. I try to keep these episodes around an hour, and we’re getting close to 90 minutes.

    I love you, buddy. I could talk to you all the time. I can’t wait to see you Saturday and again in April at Rally in the Valley and at Punk Island.

    Nate (1:20:20)

    Much love, man. You’re like my uncle.

    Scott (1:20:27)

    I’m growing nephews and nieces left and right.

    Everyone, if you want to play shows in New York, reach out to Nate. He does a great job. I’ll put his information in the show description. If he doesn’t hit you back, he doesn’t hate your music. He’s just one person. He’s got good people to rely on too, so he might be able to help you out.

    If you like this, subscribe to the show, follow me, and share it with your friends. Shout out to my producer Trev from Struggling Artist Record Club. Nate, thank you again, my brother. I can’t thank you enough.

    Nate (1:21:12)

    Thank you. Shout out to everyone. Check out Leg Drop, check out Nate Show Booking, check out DCxPC. I’ve been plugging your name in a lot of stuff. And check out some of my bands. All four of them.

    Scott (1:21:25)

    I appreciate you, buddy. We’re going to do a big promoter episode someday with everyone I’ve talked to. It’ll be great.

    Nate (1:21:41)

    Nice.

  • Episode 30: Max and Zoe from Denounce Normalcy

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and sound techs to the zine writers and the venue operators. We're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label documenting live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal through short run vinyl releases. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I've learned that scenes don't survive on music alone. They survive because people build infrastructure,

    take care of each other and imagine something bigger than a show flyer or a lineup. Today we are meeting with two of those people who help support the scene through their amazing work as well as their kindness and general awesomeness. Today I'm sitting down with Max and Zoe from Denounced Normalcy, a DIY Carolina booking group who specializes in punk hardcore and psychedelic music. They strive to create a scene where people are free to express themselves freely, since those places are often lacking in the deep South.

    This duo of hardworking DIY promoters became

    Max (01:13)

    you

    Scott (01:14)

    friends at a local punk show and have been putting in the work to make shows that like the one that brought them together, continue to exist in their area. I had the pleasure of working with them when I was booking the recent RBNX / Negative Raxxx tour and I'm stoked to finally get a chance to meet them and show them the appreciation they deserve. So let's dig into this. How's it going?

    Max (01:32)

    It's going well. It's going well.

    Zoe (01:32)

    Good! Great.

    Scott (01:34)

    All right. You know what? You do thankless work. And I want to say thank you on behalf of everybody who thanks you at the time, but then doesn't remember how hard it is to put a show together. Thank you for that.

    Max (01:47)

    Thank you.

    Zoe (01:48)

    Thank you.

    Scott (01:51)

    All right, so it doesn't, we can start anywhere. We can start at the beginning if one of you wants to talk about how you got into this or you want to like just jump into the relationship that you built, wherever you want to go, I will go anywhere. You are the guide to the path.

    Zoe (02:06)

    the story starts with a little band called Newgrounds Death Rugby. They're a Midwest emo band that started up in Charleston, South Carolina. And, I had listened to them, like early stages of high school and I had listened to them completely organically, not even knowing they were part of the scene. And we came across a local flyer just in at random in public. And I was like, wait a minute. I-

    Scott (02:10)

    Fuck yeah.

    Zoe (02:34)

    I've listened to those guys, I know that band. They're coming to some coffee shop around us? That's crazy.

    Scott (02:40)

    All right,

    and that's the show where you two met.

    Zoe (02:44)

    Yeah, so he invited me to, we were in calculus class together and we got talking about music and he was like, yeah, I'm going to this show, it's at this coffee shop, it's gonna be whatever, it's fine. And the rest is history, like we just kept going to shows for an entire summer, just every weekend.

    Scott (03:07)

    All right,

    that is the way to do it. So how long ago was that?

    Max (03:09)

    Mm.

    That was, is my connection any better now?

    Zoe (03:12)

    That was Summer

    of-

    Scott (03:15)

    Yeah, I can hear you now. You're good.

    Max (03:18)

    so we started going to shows that summer. I think we went to like one every week, sometimes two a week. Wherever there was one around, we'd drive like two, three hours to shows sometimes. We'd go to Charleston, Wilmington. We didn't go to Columbia that summer. went after that. And it was kind of just a, we started going to more shows and.

    A lot of people I know in the scene kind of see it online that besides not going to it, we very much so learned by doing everything that we learned about punk and the scene and such was just from people we met at shows. Yeah, we like, I, I tell people I was a poser at first because I didn't listen to punk music until I started going to shows and seeing punk music live. And people are like, what you've never heard of bad brains? And I'd be like, no, what's bad brains? I only know like,

    Scott (03:52)

    Sure.

    Max (04:09)

    I'm gonna like scramble. I'm gonna like...

    Zoe (04:14)

    Hymns of blasphemy. Hugh Charcour- Hugh Charcour-

    Bannon, I see.

    Scott (04:19)

    So you only

    know the locals, you're like, have no idea what came before 30 years ago. Like we're local, we're local seeing kids and we've been going to local shows and that's all we know that exists.

    Max (04:27)

    Yeah, I...

    Zoe (04:28)

    Yeah,

    sometimes Max has been getting more into it, but sometimes Max will bring up very basic like ABC punk bands to me and I will have frankly no idea what they are talking about.

    Max (04:40)

    I, cause I got, I, I will get this later. I, so I, I study audio tech at and I was debating which school to go to and we were at a show and we met this band called Citrus who now is local to Boston. And like, yeah, there's this great scene up there. And that, that can, that sold me a gun. And it.

    Scott (04:50)

    Okay.

    Max (05:10)

    It's up here where I really started building the scene because it wasn't very tight in the scene up here. And it kind of inspired both of us really to start working on maintaining and growing.

    Scott (05:27)

    Yeah. And that's, and that's where I want to get you. Like what made you go from going to shows, talking to people, building community, getting to know people, everything that we all love so much about going to shows where you said, you know what? We're not in bands or maybe you are, you might not be, but you said, what I really want to do is start organizing, putting shows together. Like what was the impetus? Was there like a band coming through town that you really dug? Or did you just say not enough shows are happening and we have to be

    the water that makes the garden of the scene grow. What was the impetus?

    Max (05:59)

    Do you want to tell the story or should I? Okay, okay.

    Zoe (06:01)

    No, I got it. got it. Let me go. So

    Scott (06:02)

    I love this.

    Zoe (06:05)

    we started by getting into making patches, which as DIYs you can get really, we started making patches and like learning the process of it. And we'd made stencils. We made linocuts. We did the whole nine yards, everything.

    Max (06:09)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (06:25)

    And then people would compliment our patches and they were like, you should make more, you should sell them. And we were like, sure, why not? And there was this band called Cherry Vanilla that was like this riot girl band that was like really up and coming. They had nothing released. They had like done maybe three shows and we were just really big fans of theirs. And we were like, let's make, we made a little design. We made them some patches. We were like, here.

    Scott (06:32)

    Why not? Yeah.

    Fuck yeah.

    Zoe (06:53)

    just for you guys and they were like, these are really cool. Other bands want patches too. Like you should like make patches for other bands. And then we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they were like, can you make our CDs too? We were like, yeah, we can make your CDs. I guess so. And then they were like, could you get us in contact with these other bands? And it was, yeah, we can do that. And then could you get us in contact with this venue? And yeah, we can do that. And then...

    Max (07:19)

    So the

    first show that we booked was actually, Zoe goes to school in you kept saying, I really want to go to one last really good show before I go. And at this point, we're already getting in contact with other bands. We're friends with the

    promoters in myrtle beach like you know all the venues owners by like first name basis so I'm like why don't I take a crack at it and it was like it was like it was kind of like a like a going away present and I got that's where Newgrounds comes back Newgrounds after we cherry vanilla lunchbox here I almost said bomb our co and molting the the and it was such a good like diving headfirst

    Scott (08:11)

    Okay.

    Max (08:18)

    It was very big bands. I had to change the date like 15 times.

    Zoe (08:24)

    They are not emphasizing the absolute feat that they put together. We met at a Newgrounds Death Rugby show. Newgrounds was on tour for like three months leading up to right before I was about to leave to go to school. And they tracked Newgrounds down and managed to book them for a show right after a tour ended. Yeah, like...

    Scott (08:40)

    Okay.

    Which is hard, trust me, I'm aware.

    Max (08:52)

    Thank

    Zoe (08:53)

    No way in hell those band members wanted to pull up to that venue after three months on the road.

    Max (08:59)

    I talked to the vocals,

    the vocals was like, am so tired. They were like, I don't want to go on stage. I was like, come on, you're here.

    Zoe (09:10)

    And they booked the same band that was the show that we met at. And that band like never comes through our area. was their second time playing in our area since we had started doing all of the Denounce stuff.

    Scott (09:15)

    man, that's awesome!

    Max (09:31)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (09:31)

    That

    is so rad.

    Max (09:34)

    And so, sorry for jumping around a bit, but.

    Scott (09:38)

    No, no, jump around.

    It's okay. We can do this. This is boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

    Max (09:42)

    So the, what do call it? The reason why we have the name Denounce Normalcy is because we started making the patches and we were like, okay, we should actually make a thing out of this. We should probably make an Instagram to post about this. like we were doing, Zoe was doing markets and stuff. I think, that before or after? That was after Cherry Vanilla Patches. Yeah. And we like, we should make an Instagram or something. And the first patch that I'd ever made,

    Zoe (10:05)

    Yeah.

    Max (10:11)

    which is, it's absolutely horrible. Like it's barely legible. I cut it that sense a lot of cardboard for some reason, and it said Denounced Normalcy. And I was like, huh, that's a good name. And kind of stuck with

    Zoe (10:26)

    Yeah, it was very... like, this is a workshop. We can always change it later. It's like...

    Max (10:31)

    We didn't change it later.

    Scott (10:32)

    And

    those things tend to stick, but you know what? I like the name, right? It's kind of an inverse of like letting your freak flag fly. The idea that like normality is an illusion. It's a social construct. It takes me back to like when I was in high school in the nineties and it was the first or second Propagandhi CD. like they had like read this book called Refusing to Be a Man. And I was like,

    Max (10:37)

    thank you.

    Scott (11:02)

    Manhood is a social construct. Masculinity is a social construct. The normality of how we're supposed to behave is a social construct. So like denouncing normalcy, I don't think of it as like act like a weirdo. I think it means denounce what is considered the norm, normative behaviors, which change over time anyway, are designed to put upon you. So if I'm overthinking it, but that's how I read it. And I was like, love it, love it.

    Zoe (11:06)

    Okay.

    Max (11:18)

    Mm-hmm.

    So that's, yeah, you're

    Zoe (11:28)

    Yeah, you're properly reading it.

    Max (11:31)

    very much so properly reading into it. That's one of reasons that I like the name personally is because it's a bit open to interpretation in terms of what it means to you. And I people tell me numerous things. I think I like yours the best, though. like yours. Yeah, that was where the name came from.

    Scott (11:49)

    YES!

    Zoe (11:51)

    You went out.

    Scott (11:53)

    Woo woo!

    Max (11:57)

    And yeah, I booked the first show and then it went amazing. We had over 100 people show up. Everything ran extremely smoothly. I've had a lot of shows afterwards that have run a lot worse than my first show. My first couple shows, the first show went good and then our second show went, it went pretty good, not as good, but it went pretty good.

    Scott (12:00)

    How'd the first show go?

    I can go back to the first shows I put on in high school and think how terrible they were. And then they got progressively better. And then sometimes worse.

    Max (12:31)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (12:36)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (12:36)

    Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's so interesting because we had a show in, we had a show over the winter and you're like, all these bands are great. All our friends, we're posting it, have like some people here rocking with it. And we had like under 50 people show. We're like, dang, like where'd they all go? And it turns out cause it was like people like

    like people who were bringing their friends got sick and like people who like had

    Scott (13:10)

    I from what I heard about art from RBNX and Negative Raxxx you booked a show on New Year's day where some bars don't even like to be open because they're bartenders and everyone else partied all night. So you managed to find a venue and book a show from where I can tell it went really well. Like that, that, that's a mirror. Like a New Year's day show is like, I'm never going to get a New Year's day show. It's not going to happen. It's going be impossible. That's like, why would they, they gave like the day they gave me the day after Christmas, New Year's eve and New Year's day. I was like, really?

    Max (13:20)

    Mm-hmm.

    Hmm?

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (13:29)

    That's it.

    Max (13:31)

    Yeah.

    Scott (13:38)

    three of the hardest dates to book a show in the entire friggin universe. but yeah, that show, I think it went really well. Did it not?

    Max (13:46)

    It? What do call it? Honestly, there weren't as many people there because it was New Year's Day and the venue was 21 Plus, which we personally don't like. However, we know that some people prefer 21 Plus. the show went really well, all things considered. The crowd that was there was all very, everyone was excited and happy to be there. That's what matters.

    Scott (14:10)

    That's the main thing right there. It's creating that atmosphere and that community where even if it's not a lot of people, it's the people that are there, they're for the same purpose. And that matters more to me than having a lot of people there for the wrong purpose.

    Max (14:17)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Zoe (14:23)

    Yeah, of course. We have a photographer, like a local photographer that I'm sure, Negative Raxxx and, RBNX told you about, the, showed you the photos that he took. He is incredible and he will like travel to our shows. Our shows go up and down through the Carolinas everywhere and he'll drive and he'll figure it out. He'll take some sick, nasty photos of the bands. we try and have

    Scott (14:29)

    Yes.

    Max (14:50)

    All right.

    Scott (14:52)

    Yeah, I saw them. They were

    great. They were fabulous.

    Zoe (14:54)

    Yeah, he's incredible. Would die for the photographer we work with. He's humans unscripted on everything. And...

    Max (15:03)

    Yeah, he's-

    or I think it might be Bridger- it might just be Bridger's swimmer, because that one got- or, no, I think it's human description still. Because think- human- first human description got shut down, but-

    Zoe (15:10)

    Like, he's human-synscripted.

    Yeah, he kept taking nude photos and posting them and Instagram didn't like it, but it was fine.

    Scott (15:19)

    Well, yeah.

    Max (15:20)

    He actually met

    the vocalist of Negative Raxxx at a bar show. yeah, we talked about booking Axel Vita in the Carolina Tows.

    Scott (15:25)

    Kev. Kev is a great person. Yeah.

    Yeah, Kev does

    a lot of booking up here. He's been booking here for 10 years. I've only been up in the Hudson Valley now for three years and booking for a year and a half. And the first three shows I ever booked were all because of Kev. I was like, Kev, I moved here and I have friends that say they want to show, but I have no idea where to do shows here. And having met you, I know that you know the spots. And he helped me with like the first three.

    shows where I came in and said, have some kind of nightmare coming. And I've got a symbol coming another night in Sticky Steve. None of those shows would have ever happened without Kev. So I always appreciate and respect him for taking some strange dude under his a wing and helping me out. So Kev's fabulous.

    Max (16:17)

    Yeah, awesome, awesome. Dude, we had a great talk about it. It's really one thing I always appreciate is whenever we talk to someone's been to see the one like, yeah, we both like the same band. And I'm like, man, I wish I would have seen them. Then he was like, I have seen them. I met I met them. And I'm like, jealous.

    Zoe (16:35)

    you

    Scott (16:36)

    It's one of those things where every now and then I give myself shit for being 50 years old, but then I've seen a lot of stuff. Like I'll be like, yeah, yeah, I saw them in such and such. Like you saw them in a space that small. It's like, yeah, didn't everybody? Not just kidding.

    Max (16:41)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (16:41)

    if

    Max (16:43)

    Yeah.

    What's the band you've seen? I'm going switch around and ask a question.

    Scott (16:56)

    I

    don't even think I can answer that question, right? But I'll tell you the story that I was most recently telling someone. I saw a Body Count Ice-T's metal band in 1994 at in DC, the old 9:30 club where like minor threat of them all used to play before it got big, a big, a much bigger venue like, and the part that I remember most about it was that I don't know if you know, these sort of jackets are called starter jackets they're very big.

    Max (16:58)

    Okay.

    Mm-hmm.

    Really?

    I know that.

    Scott (17:23)

    puffy jackets related to either a football or basketball team. And it's cold it's winter time and their coat check there is limited at best. So everybody is packed in there and everybody is wearing these giant puffy coats. And it was just like, I, I've never forgot. Like that was, I'll probably never see them ever again. I don't even know if body count still playing or doing anything, but like that to me, was like, I can't believe.

    Max (17:37)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (17:52)

    I am literally here watching Body Count right now at the small ass venue. Like, I used to play huge places, but then Body Count plays small place.

    Max (17:55)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (17:58)

    It's good.

    Max (18:00)

    Mm-hmm.

    It's crazy the I Are you familiar with that geese?

    Scott (18:09)

    Yes.

    Max (18:11)

    I saw geese at a venue they were booked at when they were a lot smaller and then they went on tour. They blew up then went on tour. However, they booked the venue before they were that big and the venue held 300 and there were 500 people in there.

    Scott (18:28)

    That's right stuff. Yeah, some of the favorite shows I booked are like when I'm like, I undersell a spot. Like I did Big D and the Kids Table like a year ago at a spot that only holds like 160. And they normally play to like 400 to 500 people. But it was great for like to have such a small intimate show with them versus having it like, know, with a, you know, five foot high stage sort of thing. So for those of us that could get into the show.

    Max (18:43)

    Mm-hmm.

    yes.

    Scott (18:54)

    I I think they did three dates like that in Boston. They did a whole like small venue tour and they tried to make sure they played multiple dates so that people could go see them if they couldn't get into the first show.

    Max (18:58)

    Mm-hmm.

    That's sick. That's really nice, actually.

    Scott (19:08)

    So you mentioned shows all over the state of North Carolina and South Carolina. Am I correct that you said that? I hearing you?

    Zoe (19:16)

    Okay, we've got it's a we've done Wilmington we're getting into North Carolina. We're breaking in slowly

    Scott (19:19)

    Okay.

    I played Wilmington once. Yeah, and then I lost my bass player at South of the Border afterwards, so... So we...

    Zoe (19:24)

    Yeah? Where?

    Max (19:24)

    Thank

    Zoe (19:30)

    So.

    Max (19:30)

    Like lost completely

    or like did you find him?

    Scott (19:34)

    We played Wilmington. We drove to south of the border on our way to Chattanooga. I don't know. was the old days with maps. So how we, you know, it might be a faster way now. Um, my wife and I were in the band with two other people. Her and I got out of the van to go check out the touristy crap and we got back in the van and we drove off heading to Chattanooga. Four hours later, we get a phone call from a pay phone and my wife's like, Hey, and I started basically Ian going, Hey,

    He's like, Ian, why are you calling us from the back of the van? We had a big, like, you 12 passenger van. We thought he was asleep in the back room. Apparently he got out to use the bathroom, but he told the guitarist who was laying in the middle row, but he was passed out. So he didn't tell us, and we didn't check, and he left his phone in the car. So he was calling Collect to his wife in DC for hours, trying to get her to get our number, because he didn't have it memorized, to tell us to come back. So we had to go four hours back to go get him.

    So yeah, we lost him at South of the border. That's what I remember at Wilmington, North Carolina.

    Zoe (20:32)

    Yeah

    Max (20:37)

    Where'd you play in Wilmington?

    Scott (20:40)

    we're talking like 2003. You're asking me to remember something that specific.

    Zoe (20:42)

    You

    Max (20:46)

    Was it Reggie's?

    Scott (20:48)

    I can't remember anything. I remember they recorded us and that's when we started putting a two drink maximum before we get on stage because we did not play as well as we thought we did. That's where you like went and you listed the CD. I was like, we're off key. we're off tempo. it felt so great last night. We would have been like fucking great night. Everybody. Yeah. And then we listened. It was like, no. no.

    Zoe (20:58)

    Yeah

    Max (20:59)

    That's really good.

    Zoe (21:11)

    We did it!

    Max (21:06)

    No.

    Sorry.

    No.

    Scott (21:18)

    The energy was probably there, but

    the music...

    Max (21:22)

    it's, that's...

    Scott (21:23)

    Yeah, I can't remember.

    mean, that's 23 years ago, 20, 22 years ago. It's a long time ago.

    Zoe (21:26)

    Mm-hmm.

    I don't blame you.

    Max (21:30)

    No, that's fair. There's this one band who I saw forever ago. the joke is, we called them a straight edge band, because they were most definitely not. so we were like, yeah, whatever a band like, all my roommates are in bands. they were like, that was such a bad practice. We were like straight edge during it. Because nothing sounds like me. The most notable thing about that band

    Scott (21:31)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (21:57)

    Just did it.

    Max (22:01)

    was that the bassist wouldn't stop playing the entire time when even when the vocals was trying to talk to the crowd. Like he'd like, hey guys, buy our version bassist. be like, know, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. He like threw something at the bassist to get him to stop playing and he kept playing still like a beer can. You know what? It was good. It was larva. That was the band.

    Zoe (22:12)

    You

    Scott (22:18)

    I love it.

    Zoe (22:20)

    It's good.

    Scott (22:25)

    Do you attend every show you book? Right? Because I booked tours. It was like, are you going on tour with the bands? I'm like, I booked four tours this year. How am I going to go on the tour with four different bands and also keep my own job and my wife and kids and everything else I'm doing? I can't just go riding around with bands. But like, because I'm big on this. Like I did 35 shows last year in my area and I was only absent for two.

    Max (22:28)

    Yes.

    Scott (22:50)

    And I have a great back line support staff of wonderful people like Savannah and Des and Arsenic and Willie who can run it for me, but I hate not being there. So you're at every show you do.

    Max (23:02)

    So Zoe unfortunately can't be because she's in Pennsylvania, but every time we're both here, we're both at every show. I run sound for nearly every show that I do. And so I kind of have to be there. However, we're having our first show not this weekend, but next weekend where I double book shows that weekend because the band was on tour and they were like, we really need this day and we're going to help you. And that'll be the first show that I booked that I won't be at.

    Scott (23:16)

    Sure.

    How do you feel about that?

    Max (23:32)

    Honestly, I have it in hands of people I really trust so it'll be exciting because I also I told you that I'm sitting on a PA right now because There's another venue in Colombia, which I'm currently trying to set up because I I bring my own PA to most shows Got it off Facebook Marketplace. It works great sounds better than a lot I've heard but the issue is I can't we can't run shows unless I'm there and I wanted to

    Scott (23:49)

    Right, yep.

    Max (24:01)

    have a way to run shows when I'm not there because Columbia is a two hour drive from me, three hour drive from us to Myrtle. And if a band needs a weekday, there's no chance of getting there. So it's helping out by setting up more places that we can kind of book at without having to be in person there. Because I love being in person at shows, but if the community needs a show on the day and I can't be there, I don't want that to be a deciding factor.

    Scott (24:12)

    Yeah.

    And I do the same thing. Like I have a band coming through that needed Memorial Day weekend. And my wife's like, I'm pretty sure we're going to go out of town that weekend. So I went to Dez and Savannah from Poison Paradise Rec. And I'm like, Dez does all my sound. Savannah might as well be like my event. If I paid her, she'd be my event manager, but I do not pay her. I should pay her. You deserve it, I'm sorry. I can't afford it. But she can run a show like fucking no one's business. like, I'll be like, Hey, I'm going to book this show.

    Max (24:38)

    Thank

    Scott (24:59)

    when I hired Des for sound, if I can't make it, I'm going to need you to be able to do it for me. Like, yeah, yeah, we got you. So like, get it sometimes. Cause I don't want to say no to the touring band. Like they need help. There's this cam girl from North Carolina. I brought them up here once before and they're phenomenal. Um, so I hate turning down and not helping people, but at the same time I've had to learn to say no when I like my bandwidth can't take it. So I would unpack two things, at least two or three things that you said there. It's like,

    Max (25:16)

    Thanks.

    Yeah.

    Scott (25:28)

    So you're working sound at the show.

    Max (25:30)

    Yes.

    Scott (25:32)

    So do you have like when I first moved up here, I was doing the sound, providing the back line, working the door, also setting up my merch table for my record label and also doing all the like, hey, here's the artist coming in, here's your drink tickets, here's this, here's that. Please tell me you have some support beyond that. Cause if you're working the sound and doing all that, I know how hard that was. So like, do you have...

    Zoe (25:54)

    Thanks.

    Scott (25:57)

    reliable volunteers help her seeing people that are like there to make sure that things run smooth.

    Max (26:03)

    So I will give you multiple answers to that. Yes, I always have someone doing doors. I have a couple people who consistently do doors. Like, when I have a show in Columbia, we have a friend named Gio. And if there's a show in Columbia, I don't even have to ask. He's there, and he's like, all right, I'm sitting at the table doing my thing. For other shows, Zoe will often do doors and be the...

    Scott (26:06)

    Ha

    Max (26:32)

    be like the people person while I'm trying to set up the PA and you know when my speakers are turning on or something. So we're very good at, we usually try to tag team shows but when it's only me here, I have a good couple of friends who I can assign to working doors or like running around grabbing things. I have this one friend Alana who will have probably his shows in Clemson and every time we'll get in the car afterwards I'll be the

    I was like, thank you so much for helping us. what did I do? And I'm like, I saw the entire show like yelling, go get me an XLR, like go, go like help the fan load their like tuba in.

    Zoe (27:11)

    You

    Scott (27:12)

    People don't realize how much help they have. Like, Willie and Al, they're a great duo, great partners. Willie tends to work the door because Al doesn't do numbers. And Al just does whatever I ask Al to do. Al, need you to help the sound guy carry this stuff in. Al, can you set up the merch table? Al, I need you to go do this. And there might be hours where I ask Al to do nothing. But then when I need them to do something, I'm like, just knowing that they're there, waiting for me to say I need help with this.

    Zoe (27:24)

    You

    Max (27:39)

    Yeah.

    Scott (27:43)

    It's amazing.

    Max (27:44)

    And that's one thing with Zoe here is that, so I am an awful graphic designer. I made one good design in my entire life. was our logo that I kind of stopped there.

    Scott (27:57)

    I also

    suck at it, so yay to those of us that suck. steal X-Men covers, that's pretty much all I do.

    Zoe (28:03)

    You

    Max (28:04)

    But Zoe is absolutely incredible. Nearly every single poster we have been made by Zoe. The one for the RBNX show was made by Zoe. And she'll be like, oh, I didn't do that much. And I'm like, I wouldn't be able to do this.

    Scott (28:06)

    Fuck yeah.

    Flyers matter. That imagery matters. It sets the tone. It attracts the eye. have like three or four people that I do like flyers with, because I do enough shows that I try and rotate it out to people so I don't overuse people. But I love it when people say, fucking kick ass flyer. You know, lit flyer, that flyer slaps. I'm like, yeah, fuck yeah, does. I can't. We know. That's why I pay for it.

    Max (28:22)

    Good.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    And also...

    Scott (28:50)

    Not a lot mind you because they're punk rockers. They never charge

    Zoe (28:52)

    Yes.

    Scott (28:53)

    me over

    like 30 bucks. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm getting this fucking quality art that I would hang in my house for $30.

    Zoe (28:55)

    Yeah.

    Max (29:01)

    I have them hung in my house.

    Zoe (29:02)

    See, yeah, they're- they're-

    they're hungin- they're hungin' the house. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (29:07)

    They're hung in the house. I've run out of space.

    Max (29:08)

    this.

    I also have, so. the other thing is that having someone there who, if they aren't really doing anything physical or like, you know, like not physically caring, so you're not physically working doors, having someone there you can like, as like a support, just as a support means like the world, especially when you're 5,000 different things at once.

    Zoe (29:13)

    No.

    Max (29:39)

    And you have a band saying they're going to be there after music starts. And another band that's like, hey, our amp isn't working. Do you have an amp we can borrow? I'm like, okay, I'll borrow.

    Scott (29:51)

    in April, I bought a full back line because I got tired of trying to coordinate the sharing of stuff and I don't trust other bands like, yeah, we're to back line the drums and then they don't show up at all.

    Max (29:58)

    That's.

    Zoe (30:02)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (30:03)

    Yeah, had a so the biggest failure of a show that we ever did was an emo night show, which we had a bunch of big emo bands from the state. It was going to be huge. It was like just off of like shares on the Instagram.

    Zoe (30:18)

    It was our most shared,

    it was our most shared flyer we had had yet.

    Scott (30:21)

    So you're

    like, this is going to be the fucking busy busy bomb. It's going to like be off the hook, off the chain, whatever the kids call it today. Like it was going to happen.

    Zoe (30:24)

    Yes.

    Max (30:27)

    And this is

    reason I got a PA system because another band is back on PA and I'm like awesome, awesome. They're back on everything. Amps, kit, literally everything. And it was an outdoor venue, it a covered stage. So we get there and the forecast said it wasn't gonna rain. It was gonna be like little drizzle for an hour. I was like, I'm not worried. We get there, they set up and the guy's like, by the way, I'm gonna live record this. And I'm like, okay, it's a lot for doing outside. I personally wouldn't, you can go for it.

    His whole library, he's like a digital mixer, he's like a studio thing. It's a whole, like, way too much.

    Scott (31:01)

    yeah, yeah,

    I do live recordings, I understand.

    Max (31:03)

    It was one of the Behringer ones you connect to your iPad. I don't remember the exact number, but it was one of those. had 57s everywhere. He had these nice condensers over the kit. And for an outdoor emo show, that's too much. They're doing too much for that. I always tell bands that if they want a mic kit, they can bring their own PA, because I'm not doing it. You don't need to mic a kit.

    But we get there, they set everything up, and then it starts drizzling. I'm like, okay, it's fine. will just huddle under the covered areas until it stops. It starts raining harder. And there was a leak in the roof. And I was like, oh no. I was like, let's get all this equipment covered. And the sound guy who was in the van, the guy in the kit in the amps, panics, packs everything into the van, and they drive away.

    And then the rain, the worst part is the rain stopped 30 minutes later. Before doors are even supposed to open.

    Zoe (32:00)

    you

    Scott (32:04)

    They packed up their shit and left.

    Max (32:04)

    So the show had be canceled.

    Yep, show had to be canceled. All the other bands are still there just waiting. Keep in mind, we had no kit, we had no bass amps, we had guitar amps, we had no bass amps, no kit. One microphone, because I brought a microphone. Yeah.

    Scott (32:21)

    What?

    Who do they just put their stuff in the van and let the rain stop and then bring it back out?

    Max (32:30)

    That's what I said, but the guy was, yeah, the guy was not, he was not very nice about it either. And that's why I decided the next day to buy my own PA. And now the show can't not go on. Yeah.

    Zoe (32:42)

    You

    Scott (32:43)

    So you understand I

    I des who does my sound He has never not come to a show. He has never not been on time He brings his PA and he brings like the subwoofers and stuff, but bands were not reliable to like provide equipment So was like I already owned a drum set cuz I'm a drummer So I bought two used guitar cabs and a bass cab I'm like done and then I run into the issue like you were like, yeah I want to use your back line, but I don't have guitar heads. I play out of a combo. It's like then bring your combo in

    It's small. Like the back line is for bands from New York City that don't want to haul their stuff down three flights of stairs.

    Max (33:21)

    Yeah, exactly.

    Scott (33:22)

    Yeah, I get it. So Zoe, you're in Pennsylvania. Are you working, college, just living a free life, living your best life? What are you doing there?

    Zoe (33:25)

    I am.

    College I go to school up on the mountains. Don't ask me how I got here. I kind of blacked out

    Scott (33:39)

    What part of

    where are you in Pennsylvania? If I can ask where in Pennsylvania?

    Zoe (33:42)

    Yeah, Northwest, kind of by Erie a bit. I'm not too far from New York, probably like half an hour, honestly. Yeah.

    Scott (33:45)

    Okay.

    Yeah, I was gonna say. Probably

    not too far. So, have you looked into doing shows in your area? Like you guys, you all could expand beyond the Carolinas into the Pennsylvanias.

    Zoe (33:56)

    Yes, sir.

    Yeah, that's the hope. We're trying to get a bit more national with it. We're trying to get around, because it's- we started because South Carolina really doesn't have a consistent booking thing. There's a group called Myrtle Beach Shows, who book, as the name implies, in Myrtle Beach.

    Scott (34:15)

    Yes.

    Myrtle Beach, yes. Which I

    Max (34:22)

    To quote

    Scott (34:23)

    played there a couple times with the Independents over the years.

    Max (34:23)

    Devin, the guy who runs, one of the guys, he says that he really would love to book Elsword, but he's kind of stuck there with the name. Can't believe, have a Myrtle Beach show in Charleston.

    Zoe (34:26)

    Yeah!

    Yeah, like...

    Scott (34:33)

    No, no, that's not true. My name is DC

    and I'm not from DC anymore. It's fine. what about geared for gear for used to help me all the time in Charleston, Rick, right? Rick Burrick.

    Zoe (34:37)

    Yeah.

    Max (34:42)

    love, geared. So geared for,

    those guys are Billy Bats managers, right?

    Scott (34:48)

    Yeah, yes, I'm putting up

    Billy Bats live record coming out here in a little bit.

    Max (34:52)

    I will definitely be hitting you up for that. love Billy Bats. I almost worked for them. We're planning a show with them. So I know Geared 4 I've emailed with.

    Scott (35:01)

    Yeah. Rick used to

    book all the shows in the world and now he just focuses on Billy Bats. That's all he does. Every now and then if I say, Rick, come on, dude, I really need something. But he's like, he's very busy. He's got a new baby. think too. I was like, I love you, Rick. I'm not in any way dissing you, but I get it. Like I had an underage band that was on tour. was like, Rick, if there's anyone that knows where I can book a high school hardcore band from DC in the South at venues.

    Max (35:10)

    Really.

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (35:14)

    Hehehe

    Max (35:19)

    Thank

    Scott (35:30)

    the dude that's been booking Billy Bats for years, back when I first met them and they were like 16 years old. I know you know those spots, Rick. You have to fucking help me.

    Max (35:38)

    yeah.

    Zoe (35:39)

    Help me!

    Max (35:43)

    Be a-

    Scott (35:45)

    Yeah, but back to you

    like Pennsylvania where have you you go to shows like what's the scene like where you're at?

    Zoe (35:52)

    I frequented the Pittsburgh scene a bit and it's really interesting seeing the differences between the northern scene and the southern scene. The northern scene is old as shit, I gotta say. Yeah, the northern scene, it's like they all know each other. They're all like on a first name basis. They all show up and it's like a bunch of 40 year olds in the room. I was like the youngest person in the room at the shows that I've been going to and it's been-

    Scott (35:59)

    Yeah?

    Fascinating where have you been going

    just out of curiosity cuz I booked in Pittsburgh. Did you go to Pittsburgh?

    Zoe (36:23)

    Yeah,

    Max (36:24)

    Thank

    Zoe (36:24)

    I've been to the government center. I've been to Roboto. I almost went to Haven. Haven just got shut down, if you're familiar.

    Max (36:28)

    Thank you.

    Scott (36:32)

    I'm not, have you been

    to 222 Ormsby yet? Have you heard of 222 Ormsby? Because this is the space that's for you. So they are an all ages DIY space, all volunteer. When I book shows there, it costs like a hundred dollars. And that's basically money for the sound person to come in and work sound. The, I have to find my own door person. I book all the bands myself.

    Zoe (36:35)

    I have not.

    I have not. Do tell.

    Max (36:43)

    you

    Scott (36:58)

    I mean, they have a whole list of rules, yada yada. You can bring your own beer, but you better not be underage, et cetera. But it is a great DIY space. And you should look into that because if there is one space from what, like just talking to you all now that you would love, it's an all ages DIY space that you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want. And whether you join the group, think my buddy, my buddy Paul,

    Max (37:05)

    .

    Zoe (37:09)

    Hell yeah.

    Okay.

    Hell yeah.

    Max (37:23)

    Thank you.

    Scott (37:28)

    my God, what is the name of his like podcast? I'm such a jerk. But I know he's one of like the volunteers there. And it reminds me of a space I used to work at, volunteer at called Charm City Art Space in Baltimore. So, but like you could be booking there and I'll be honest, I haven't been there, but I booked almost every tour I book. I booked bands there and they come back telling me they love it. So I haven't made the PGH trip yet.

    Max (37:33)

    Thank you.

    Zoe (37:37)

    Mm-hmm.

    Uh-huh.

    Scott (37:59)

    I'm a little bit on the more eastern side. I'm like just two hours west of New York City. So that'd be like a five hour drive for me.

    Zoe (38:04)

    Yeah.

    Max (38:06)

    Are you from?

    Zoe (38:06)

    It's a lot.

    Max (38:07)

    Where in Hudson Valley are you from?

    Scott (38:09)

    So I'm in the Kingston area. So it's basically an hour south of Albany at about two, two and a half hours northwest of New York City. Other big cities are like Poughkeepsie, there's New Paltz. Technically I live right outside of Woodstock.

    Max (38:26)

    So, I'm from, I'm from Cortland Manor.

    Zoe (38:27)

    Technically.

    Scott (38:28)

    Technically speaking.

    I don't even know what that is.

    Max (38:34)

    It's right next to Westchester. Yeah.

    Scott (38:36)

    That I know. I've

    Zoe (38:37)

    Hehehe

    Scott (38:38)

    only lived in this area for three years and I'm DC born and bred, lived in Florida for like 15 years. And that's, that sucked because I taught social studies there and they hate social studies in Florida. So, and I'm up here getting my PhD in Albany, but my wife hates Albany. So I live in the middle of nowhere where bears break into our cars. So, and I'm like, this is where I'm going to put on punk rock shows in the middle fucking nowhere.

    Max (38:51)

    Uh-uh.

    Zoe (38:58)

    Yeah

    Yeah.

    Max (39:05)

    Listen, that's where the best ones are.

    Scott (39:07)

    That's where the best ones are. When I booked tours for a band's they're like, I want to play Philly. I'm like, fuck Philly. No offense, Philly. I love you. I would never offend Philadelphia because you're all but just scary ass motherfuckers. But I would say play Scranton play Allentown play Easton, play some small, poor, area where the kids are starving for you.

    Zoe (39:09)

    Mm.

    Yeah.

    You will meet, you will meet the best people at the random DIY venues that you... I went... Like, the Boneyard, I went to, I went to a show up here recently that was inside of a Teamsters union. Like, like the union, like, like the people of the union hall had like booked the show, I guess. And I met somebody there that like, like it was like this high schooler and I was like, what's your name? And they were like, my name's Meatball.

    Scott (39:35)

    Yes, every time.

    Max (39:37)

    the boneyard.

    Scott (39:49)

    Fuck yeah!

    Zoe (39:58)

    And I was like, hell yeah! Like, hell yeah, you are meatball! Like, yeah, fuck it up! And they were good! They were good at moshin', we had great energy, they were like, helping out with a bailout fund, and I was like, like, this is the type of shit you wanna see!

    Scott (39:58)

    Cheers!

    Max (40:00)

    Sure.

    Scott (40:03)

    Yeah, meatball, let's do this.

    Yeah, I think it was like there was some run, RBNX was on and I needed a take as something had fallen through and I booked them at a vape shop in Dickinson. That's like really a vape shop. But since then, like there's a bunch of shows that are going on there. I guess the owner manager is just like fucking hardcore and punk rock. And he's like, yeah, I'll just have a whole area people can set up and there are circle pits going on. I don't vape. I don't endorse vaping, but hey.

    Zoe (40:27)

    Sure.

    Who cares?

    Scott (40:48)

    I don't care!

    Max (40:49)

    The best energy at a venue, so the venue that we look at the most in Colombia is a Puerto Rican restaurant.

    Scott (40:59)

    Fuck yeah.

    Zoe (41:00)

    Restaurant is also a strong word. It is a- it is like a shack on the side of the road that sells a really fucking good empanada. Yeah.

    Max (41:08)

    They have $2 empanadas.

    Scott (41:10)

    I'm not gonna mock that. I'm gonna say I wish

    I had one.

    Max (41:13)

    They're they're the best empanadas I've ever had. The reason why they booked shows is because the nephew of the owner, or great nephew, I don't know, it's all family run, just loves hardcore. He's got all of his moves down. He'll go, yeah, saw like Sangui Asugabag last week, like death metal hardcore beat down his whole thing. And he's like, guys, you

    Scott (41:40)

    Yeah.

    Max (41:43)

    I have hardcore shows here. And now just my favorite spot to book. Like you said, I throw them a hundred bucks. They make triple that in beer sales and they don't care what we do.

    Scott (41:53)

    Yeah. And that's the beauty of it. Right. So how do you decide which shows to do? Like I reached out to you at random. I got your contact, I believe from Triangle Fire who are amazing, amazing people. And was it that referral that made you give me the time of day or do you, cause I get a lot of requests and it's really hard to sift through everything and be considered and thoughtful. And I actually have like an

    Max (42:05)

    I love Triangle Fire.

    Scott (42:24)

    I have kind of almost a form response when I can't do it. Like I can't help you for X reason. Here's three other local promoters and here is my spreadsheet of promoters throughout the whole area. I wish I could be a more help at most of them. They're like, that's amazing. I was like, yeah, because I can't help everyone. What is your, what draws you to help someone? Is it the music, the people, the referral, your time, all of the above?

    Zoe (42:34)

    Thank

    Max (42:41)

    Mm-hmm.

    So really the reason why we chose to help you is because it's someone that feels like in South Carolina at least, it's kind of we are only ones who are. There's not really three other bookers I can refer you to who I can guarantee will get you a show. There's Myrtle Beach shows, however they're booked super far out. There's a couple independent bookers in Columbia, there's a couple in Greenville.

    If a band's like, we're on tour and we need a swap at South Carolina, it's... I feel that I'm pretty sure Zoe agrees with me on this set. We have the best chance of getting them a show. So when you're like, hey, we need this date, and like, that's kind of a hard date. If they even get you a show, it'll be us. And plus, you showed me the band, and I liked their music. I liked... they're good bands. I saw this slide guitar, and I was like, whoa.

    Zoe (43:38)

    if

    Scott (43:39)

    Fuck yeah,

    they are good bands, right?

    Max (43:46)

    I've never seen that before. And so I was like, I gotta get these guys on the show. yeah, dope.

    Scott (43:48)

    Yes.

    Zoe (43:53)

    If

    you also check any touring flyer for any band ever, it doesn't matter the genre, it doesn't matter anything, you'll see the big list of all the names and it'll go like Tennessee, it'll go Tennessee, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida. Like, they will always skip South Carolina without fail.

    Max (44:12)

    And we're

    trying to change the fact that bands always skip South Carolina because they always do. Every band that I wanted to see in the past year, I've had to go to a different state to see them.

    Zoe (44:26)

    You gotta go to Atlanta. Like, you go to...

    Max (44:28)

    Atlanta,

    Asheville, someone's even Charlotte.

    Scott (44:31)

    I get that right because like I grew up in DC so everything came through between Baltimore DC and Richmond. I never had a problem. Maybe I do go to Philly sometimes, but very rarely. Then I moved to Orlando. People come to Florida, but nobody ever wanted to come central. They always did the coast. Oh, we're going to hit down. We're going to come down. We're going to hit like St. Augustine, go down to Miami, come up, hit, hit Tampa, then go west out the Pensacola or something like that. Then whenever came inside. So I get what you're saying. It's like people don't go.

    Max (44:36)

    Mm-hmm.

    Maybe get to Richmond, for sure.

    Scott (45:01)

    into your state.

    Max (45:03)

    Mm. And we'd like people to, because we got a good senior.

    Scott (45:07)

    Yeah, no, I've never

    had a I've never had a non good time in South Carolina. But I think I've I'm pretty sure the only cities I've ever played are Charleston and Myrtle Beach. I'm not sure I've ever been to Columbia.

    Max (45:20)

    Columbia is probably the best hardcore and punk scene in the state. If you like Deathcore, you can either hear in there or there, Deathcore beatdowns pretty big in Greenville and a lot of shoe gays in Greenville. But Columbia is where everything is at. Every time I book in Columbia, there's like three other shows that weekend. There's like New Brooklyn Tavern, which is the big venue.

    Scott (45:23)

    Yeah.

    Max (45:48)

    Then you have a bunch of DIY ones a new one just started and the whole thing we're trying to at that venue is trying to keep it off social media and it's going pretty well so far, but it's really cool.

    Scott (45:57)

    Okay, rad. mean,

    having a photographer taking photos of your shows is absolutely invaluable. I've had this person in Put Over Photo taking photos of every show I've done since April. And I will say they've done more with their photos than anything I've done. Because they post them up within like 48 hours of the show. Each band, little like captions. And it's like, people are like, oh, that was a great show. I wish I had been there. I was like, yeah, it was, but.

    Max (46:11)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (46:12)

    Hell

    yeah.

    Scott (46:28)

    I've said that for years, but man, without these photos, nobody would be saying that.

    Zoe (46:32)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (46:32)

    Mm-hmm.

    It's great. love... Bridger takes great photos. also know the photographer Miguel. His name is Miguel, I'm pretty sure. I mean, you know how good Miguel's photos are.

    Zoe (46:43)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (46:46)

    Yeah, I mean, I think when we were chatting and you talked about all the people that you had that were supportive, that's one of the reasons I wanted to interview you because knowing that you are able to build a collective of people like that, it speaks to the quality of who you are and what you're doing because people don't come around doing free stuff and just lending their love if they're not feeling like there's a value to it. So obviously you are doing things that value.

    that your community values. I knew I valued it. So I can't thank you enough for that.

    Max (47:17)

    Thank you.

    Thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure to have them there. Hopefully next year they can run back through, not on New Year's Day, hopefully this time.

    Scott (47:29)

    Hopefully not and I might

    Zoe (47:29)

    You

    Scott (47:31)

    have some other bands coming that way. You know what killed me the most is I booked There was their tour and I got another tour this band called Shark Noises playing Pittsburgh by the way at two two two Ormsby and On a Friday or Saturday in March so you should go And then I booked in this band called Meow Meow and they all went different directions one like heading west one south and one going up northeast But every one of them wanted to play Philly

    Max (47:32)

    I'm Sam Moose II.

    Zoe (47:41)

    Hell yeah.

    You

    Max (47:58)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (47:58)

    Everyone

    in Philly is a hard ass town to book and I have a couple people there I got a lot of people but it's like I don't like hitting up the same person over and over again Like if I had another band coming through in January I probably wouldn't have bothered you again because I wouldn't want to bother you twice in like four weeks

    Max (48:17)

    Give me something to do. I like to say whenever bands like, we need this, I'm like, give me a challenge, give us something new to do. I try to have at least one out of state band in each bill. Because it's not just a community in state, it's kind of the whole US worldwide punk community of you can't really grow in a vacuum and you got to keep feeding it.

    Zoe (48:18)

    Mm-hmm

    Scott (48:19)

    Okay?

    Max (48:46)

    So get it, keep going.

    Scott (48:48)

    I'm exactly the same way. I do these monthly shows in Kingston and on Sundays, but I tend to have at least two out of town bands. And people are like, how do you get out of town bands on a Sunday show? was like, well, the show started for the end at nine. If you're from Philly or New York city, you're going to get home at one o'clock. Who hasn't played a Tuesday night show and gotten home at one o'clock? So other than the extra drive, you're still getting the same amount of sleep. So, and I booked five months out usually.

    Max (48:56)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (49:16)

    So you can book a run around it if you can too. So, but like it's essential to me to not just book a local band showcase. I don't know that I've ever, since I moved here, especially just had like, Oh, I'm just going to do a three or four band local bands. I'm like, no, if I'm going to do it, it's cause I'm helping bring a band up here or I'm helping the band on tour.

    Max (49:20)

    Mm-hmm.

    you

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, don't think, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe we've done any shows where it's been entirely local bands. I think we've always had at least one out-of-town band.

    Zoe (49:52)

    The first show? First show was all local.

    Max (49:53)

    Are they?

    No, lunch boxes from North Carolina.

    Zoe (49:58)

    Fuck, everyone. Yeah, like, or Caroline, like, is there really a difference?

    Scott (49:58)

    F***! It's still a carolina, it almost doesn't count.

    Max (50:07)

    I'm trying to think.

    Scott (50:07)

    I bet people

    in Carolina would say there are. I don't know. I I lived in Northern Virginia and we definitely thought the rest of West Virginia was different. Heck, we thought the rest of Virginia was different. We wanted to secede from the rest of Virginia because we were Northern Virginia and we were not the same.

    Max (50:11)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (50:11)

    I, yep, yeah.

    Yeah

    Max (50:19)

    Thanks.

    You said Richmond. You've been around the Ripton scene, you said? I have a couple friends who moved up there, and I almost went up there to see Life, I think it was Life and NoFucker who played there. And there's Japanese Crust, which in case you can tell from the Gizem shirt, I love Japanese Crust. And...

    Scott (50:30)

    Whole bunch.

    Okay.

    Max (50:50)

    They were playing up there and I had a bunch of friends and I'm like, yeah, you got to come up to the Richmond scene. And I'm like, it sounds like Tuesday. I can't drive to a lot of Tuesday.

    Scott (51:00)

    It's always like that, like I wanna do it, but I can't always make it happen. My body just says no, just says no.

    Max (51:04)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Zoe (51:08)

    You should...

    You should tell the Pigeon Pit story. I feel like the Pigeon Pit story is THE denounced normalcy story.

    Scott (51:15)

    Well, then I need to hear the epitome of denounced normalcy. Lay it on us.

    Zoe (51:17)

    Yeah.

    Max (51:19)

    Pigeon pit.

    Are you familiar with pigeon pit?

    Scott (51:23)

    I am unaware. am like sitting here just open to hearing and absorbing what you have to share. Cause I know nothing.

    Zoe (51:26)

    Yep.

    Max (51:31)

    So Pigeon Pit is a big folk punk band. We both love folk punk. It's the absolute rawest version of punk. You can't market it, you can't sell it. I love it. Pigeon Pit have been around for a while. They played NPR's Tiny Desk a few years ago. they, I personally love them. Zoe, I forced Zoe to listen to them until she started loving them. And we,

    Scott (51:35)

    I LOVE FOLK PUNK

    Fuck yeah.

    Max (52:00)

    And they were going on tour and they flying in Atlanta and I'm like, okay, guess I'll drive to Atlanta to see them. And one of the reasons why I was excited you reached out to me is, reached out to us, is because I have habit of cold emailing bands that I want to play with us or bands in areas I want to have connections in to try to expand our network. And one of those bands was Pitchfitt. I said to I'm to cold email and DM like forever ago.

    So I was like, why not? Worst thing to do is not reply.

    Scott (52:31)

    Sure. Give

    it a whirl. Fuckin' A, go for it.

    Max (52:34)

    And they post on their story, I think it was a month before their Atlanta date, they're like, hey, who approached us about booking in South Carolina forever ago? And I searched up on the search, like, hey, I think that was us. I'm not sure that they're like, yes, it was. Can you help? And then we started messaging over email for a bit, over, we started like texting.

    And it was the most rush job ever done. I used to try to get like three months on shows and I booked in a week. I was able to get them a venue in South Carolina and Columbia. We got everything off and done. I'm like, it was under two weeks. So I made a whole like handmade scrapbook poster for it. And I, the entire time I was ecstatic. There's like probably my favorite bands was like messaging me about booking my own.

    And we got it, was a backyard show and we got it, we figured out, we learned how to sell tickets for a show at that show, we did not know beforehand. I think we used Ticketleap for it.

    Zoe (53:50)

    The

    thing about the Pigeon Pit story that is so special to me is that we have a graveyard of cold replies that have gone nowhere. We have like an email list miles long of like, hey, if you ever want to come to South Carolina, let us know. And they posted on their Instagram story being like, hey, someone reached out to us. And we'd also reached out to them like two months earlier.

    Max (54:05)

    many.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Zoe (54:21)

    A Miami date had fallen through and we had like a month to book an entire show like with nothing and it happened and it was great! Horrible, but it happened.

    Scott (54:29)

    Those last minute shows are the hardest.

    Max (54:32)

    We made it work and

    it made it work and that was probably, to answer my own question, the best show that I've been to. Because I was sitting there after talking to a band that I had listened to nonstop for forever and loved and was booking them and I was sitting right front and center because it sounded great so I walked up to the mixer, front and center, huge push pit around me. I was watching like this is my favorite song ever.

    And it was amazing. the best part was we were as grateful for them as they were for us for setting it up. And it was just, was, they were so lovely. Um, and like we, the whole, the whole nine yards, it was, we found a place to stay for two nights. They needed two nights because they had like a break. We found them in a venue. Uh, they, they asked for like, uh, stage monitors, which we didn't have at the point. So I,

    Scott (55:12)

    That's wonderful.

    Max (55:30)

    went out and got Facebook marketplace stage monitors and fixed them up, they weren't working. And we made it all work and it turned out amazing.

    Scott (55:41)

    Awesome. Do you normally give people places to stay? Is that normally something you try and offer?

    Max (55:45)

    Yeah, we do try to would that. didn't have, we would have to RBNX and Raxxx so we didn't have it during Charleston.

    Scott (55:52)

    No, it's all good. Before I had kids, I offered people to pretty much every show when I was in like in my 20s to the point where, you know, I moved to Florida and now I'm back up Northeast again. And like I was at Camp Punksylvania this guy walks up to me, was like, hey Scott, what's up? was like, I'm sorry, do I know you? He was like, yeah, I was a roadie for common enemy. I slept on your floor one day. I was like, you did? He's like, yeah, I was 200 pounds heavier then. I was like,

    Max (56:11)

    you

    Scott (56:21)

    Okay, right, nice to meet you. Then I played a show in Philadelphia with my band. This guy's like, hey, I stayed at your apartment in DC. I was like, oh, you must be void control. That's why I've been that stayed there. Then I brought this band Jaylen up from Philly to play Troy or Albany area. And the guy was like, hey, you're Scott from the Overprivileged, right? I was like, yes, I'm Steve. I was in the Ghouls. I slept under your dining room table. I was like, yeah.

    Zoe (56:45)

    Sure.

    Max (56:46)

    Bye.

    Scott (56:46)

    Like, I literally,

    like for the last two years have been like recollecting people that have slept on my house.

    Zoe (56:52)

    Yeah

    Max (56:53)

    It's really funny because the thing is we book in Colombia a lot and we don't live in Colombia, obviously. so it's kind of asking which of our friends will house us and also like five other people for a night. Like, hey listen, can we crash? like, sure, know, you're our friend. We have a couch, you guys can like, one of you sleep on the floor. And like, we also have a seven piece scar band that needs a place to stay. Is that okay too?

    Zoe (57:08)

    Thank

    Can you sleep nine?

    Scott (57:20)

    Most of time it works. There was

    one time where I had a band from Boston that I knew and they were on tour with a band from Germany and they both needed a place to stay. It's just like 10 people. And then there were a bunch of roadies and it was like 15 people and the cops kept showing up and the Germans were just yelling at the cops. It was a very rough evening for me. I was like, okay, that was kind of my limit. Cause I had to...

    Zoe (57:41)

    You

    He

    Scott (57:49)

    Back then I was managing a coffee shop and literally had to be at work at like 5 a.m. That's why I left them alone in my house. It could have been better.

    Max (57:55)

    Lovely.

    Zoe (57:59)

    Just let

    him run rampant.

    Scott (58:02)

    I mean, I knew the band from Boston and I'm sure they were fine. It's yeah, it's. For the most part, yeah, it's there were some things that I wish hadn't gone the way they went, but it is what it is. Lessons learned lessons learned, right?

    Zoe (58:09)

    It worked out!

    Max (58:11)

    That was...

    Zoe (58:13)

    eventually.

    Max (58:19)

    It

    was about a month ago now, we had a band from Georgia come up and play a show at the new venue I was telling you about. And we were all crashing in the same place. And so it's a band, they're called Twig and Leaf. So like, it's a duo, of course, Twig and Leaf. And I'm like, yeah, we can totally have it. know, it's two people. It was four people. So it's Twig and Leaf.

    Zoe (58:43)

    You

    Max (58:48)

    The joke was it was twi, ig, and then ad, and then leaf.

    Zoe (58:50)

    Yeah.

    Scott (58:52)

    Jesus.

    Max (58:55)

    And, and I, can I tell people we're staying? I'm like, hey, two more people. I'm like, yeah, we can get two more people. I'm like, oh, it's actually four people. I'm like, oh, that's fine. Okay. It's actually six more people. Cause we had friends like, Hey, can we crash? And I'm like, and, then there was actually like eight more people. And then it was nine people. And then it was nine people and a dog and a cat. Cause the band had a dog and a cat.

    Zoe (59:16)

    And then a girl was sleeping in her van and she was like, hey, can I park my van outside of your place?

    Max (59:22)

    Yes! And then, because

    Scott (59:24)

    that's amazing.

    Max (59:24)

    it was a full-form show, so of course there's someone sleeping in the van who's playing, and then she's like, can I come and take a shower? And then she ended up sleeping on the floor with her two. So it was like ten people plus us.

    Zoe (59:32)

    G

    Scott (59:36)

    Okay, that's yeah. See, that's where it gets like, there's a certain point where it's like, and I've stayed in people's homes and I've always been polite. I think the, we, we, I played a show once in Columbus, Ohio, and we stayed at this house of the promoter. And I think his parents like literally like bought the house for him and his friends to live in while they were in college.

    Zoe (59:37)

    You

    That's a lot.

    Sure.

    Scott (1:00:05)

    And it was

    this big, gorgeous house. And when we got there, all I wanted to do was crash. I was so tired. And instead, some death metal band set up and started playing. I was like, this is not working well for me. And I couldn't party. I was like, we had an eight hour drive the next day. was like, I just need to go to the van. I went to the van to sleep. And I slept for maybe an hour. Then I woke up to chainsaws. And people were chopping down trees. And then explosions. throwing aerosol cans into garbage fire pits.

    Max (1:00:07)

    Mm-hmm.

    I'm

    Zoe (1:00:27)

    You

    Scott (1:00:35)

    Holy fuck, all I wanna do is sleep. I was like, I know I'm supposed to party cause I'm on tour, but I'm 36 years old and I just wanna sleep.

    Max (1:00:37)

    Yeah

    Yeah, there's been so many times where like, there's like, there's afters and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, like a, like you get a Friday show and a Saturday show. And I'm like, I'm just tired. Like, it's like, I'm like, I don't have energy to like party right now. Like let me go to bed.

    Scott (1:00:57)

    Yeah?

    There's just no after sometimes. Like I vended and sponsored a show on Saturday this weekend, then I had a show on Sunday, then I got up and went to work on Monday, and on Monday night it was my buddy Des who does the sound. It was his birthday so I went to his house, we're having dinner, and it's like 10 o'clock at night, he's up for a movie, I was like, I love you dude. But I swear to God, if I had to sit down and watch a movie, even one that I love, I'm gonna pass out in like 15 minutes.

    Zoe (1:01:23)

    No.

    Max (1:01:29)

    Yeah

    Scott (1:01:29)

    and I have

    like a 45 minute drive home from your house. I love you so much, but please let me go home.

    Zoe (1:01:36)

    Hahaha

    Max (1:01:36)

    Yeah.

    Nope. Let me out of here.

    Scott (1:01:38)

    Happy birthday, please let me go home.

    Zoe (1:01:43)

    That's the one bad thing about booking all over South Carolina is we do not live in Columbia nor anywhere close to it. We're both originally from Myrtle and so it's a three hour drive. So like show runs a little long, like usually show ends at 11, show ends at 12. It's fine. It's just a three hour drive home. after... Yeah.

    Max (1:02:06)

    It's a three hour drive over

    Scott (1:02:06)

    Three hours is a long drive. You're

    all, you two look fairly young, but like you hit my age in three hours and you start going.

    Zoe (1:02:09)

    Ugh.

    No, we gotta- we have a rule now that you're not allowed to sleep on the way back, cause you gotta keep the other person in check.

    Scott (1:02:24)

    Yeah, you're keeping the other person awake.

    Max (1:02:26)

    I it

    was actually

    Scott (1:02:27)

    I

    mean, how do you promote a show that's three hours away? I'm still like, and it may be because I'm old, right? Like, I still hang up flyers and posters everywhere. Like, I mean, I can see the potential mailing posters to the venue, even though we all tried and half the time they never got there, or they claim they never got them. Like, is it all just social media, or do you have like a street team, or do you depend on the local bands? Like, how do you promote shows when you're booking from so far away?

    Max (1:02:52)

    So the way that I'll do it is because we have so many shows in Columbia. We have show in Columbia next weekend, Valentine's Day show. Great, it's on a Saturday this year. And then the weekend, two weekends later, we have another show in Columbia. So I'm gonna bring, when I go to Columbia next weekend, I'm gonna bring all the flyers with me and then go to all the record stores that are in Columbia, go to like the main streets and just like.

    Scott (1:03:16)

    You're there

    often enough that you just fly when you're there. No, that makes sense.

    Zoe (1:03:19)

    Damn.

    Max (1:03:19)

    Yeah, because also,

    if I'm like, won't be there for a month, that's a month of time people can see the flyers for. It's so sh-

    Scott (1:03:24)

    Yep. See that that's where I

    get into my struggles. Cause like you booked all the bands and you were great. But every now and then I book a tour, I will literally get even a promoter that says, okay, I got this spot. Can you book all the bands? I'm like, I don't know the scene. Why am I booking all the bands? And like, and I'm the one that's sending the band's flyers to pass out. I was like, I, why is there a promoter if I'm doing all of this? I do not understand. Like, why am I?

    Max (1:03:41)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:03:52)

    booking all the bands, starting the group chat to discuss the show, and why am I the one mailing the poster to the venues and the record stores? I don't understand, who's the promoter here?

    Max (1:04:04)

    That's the thing is, so I struggle to define what we are, like booker, promoter, because every time I say I'm a promoter, you're oh, OK, so you're really bad at your job. Saying you're promoter is like,

    Zoe (1:04:16)

    You

    Scott (1:04:18)

    No,

    you, yep, yep, no, I get it. I get the same thing.

    Max (1:04:21)

    And I'm like, no, I'm driving to go do all my things and put up all the posters everywhere, talk to everybody, tell everybody what to do on site, doing sound and stuff.

    Scott (1:04:40)

    I don't even pay myself, right? Like I guarantee you all the bands of minimum and then we go to percentage if we get past the minimum. And only when we go to percentages do I pay myself. And even if I do, it doesn't count for the costs I spend in post printing posters and flyers. And I feed every band that comes through and I make sure there's vegan and gluten free options if necessary as well. So like I lose money every show that I do. But my general theory is like, well, there's bands from four hours away.

    Max (1:04:42)

    Mm-hmm.

    That's nice.

    Room.

    Scott (1:05:10)

    If I had driven four hours to see them, got a hotel room and driven back, would have cost me $100. So if I lost $100...

    Zoe (1:05:18)

    I would have spent it anyway. Yeah.

    Scott (1:05:20)

    Exactly. But I didn't have to drive. I wanted to drive 15 minutes.

    Max (1:05:24)

    you though.

    Scott (1:05:24)

    And I'm building community in a scene, so it's okay.

    Max (1:05:27)

    I'm gonna seal that justification, because I've actually never thought about it like that. like, well, it's just for the scene, but you know what? Yeah, I would have spent $100 to go see this band if they were... I would have never do...

    Scott (1:05:38)

    Yeah, you've driven three hours to see a band. If you can bring

    Zoe (1:05:41)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:05:41)

    them to you instead, even if it's three hours away, like that's a benefit. Or like I told my wife, you know, my wife, like how much money my record label lost last year, you know, she's like, well, I guess if you were one of those guys that went on golfing trips, you would have spent about as much money. So your business lost as much money as you would have been if you were like a golfer. was like, well, I'm not a golfer. Yeah, thank God. But like, you know, people ski, people.

    Zoe (1:05:44)

    the

    Yeah

    Max (1:05:57)

    That's true.

    Zoe (1:06:02)

    Thank God. Count your blessings.

    Max (1:06:03)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:06:07)

    You know, go to like 20 baseball games or whatever. So yeah, I don't, I lose money, but I'm doing something that has value. It kind of goes back to like when I was like 16 or 17, I did my first three day run. My dad was like, did you make any money? Scott was like, dad, every night I played with bands. would have paid to go see every night I played and people watch my shitty ass punk band. Every night I stayed at some stranger's house that fed me food. One night I even met a cute girl who

    Zoe (1:06:16)

    Mm-hmm.

    You

    Scott (1:06:37)

    I got to know. And it was fabulous. That's all I could ask for, right? And I got gas money every night. You went skiing for three days. How much money did you make, Dad?

    Zoe (1:06:40)

    That's all you can ask for.

    Dad? Come on!

    Scott (1:06:49)

    Like

    I didn't spend any money. Like I literally got enough money to get to each spot every day. I came back like I toured Europe. Same thing. I think I came back a thousand dollars light, but I toured Europe. I was in Slovakia. It cost me a thousand dollars to be in Europe for three and a half weeks.

    Max (1:06:54)

    That's all you need.

    Zoe (1:07:03)

    Yeah. Hell yeah!

    Max (1:07:05)

    Like,

    that's how I treat you.

    That's like, if you're like going on vacation to Europe and you spend $1,000 on a three week vacation to Europe, you got a good deal.

    Zoe (1:07:09)

    That's nothing!

    Scott (1:07:10)

    Nothing!

    Yeah, that's all I was down after an entire flight there, flight back and touring there for three and a half weeks. I was shorted. I had lost a thousand dollars.

    Max (1:07:28)

    was a good deal.

    Zoe (1:07:28)

    For a month? For a month. That's crazy.

    Scott (1:07:30)

    YAH! FRO-

    Max (1:07:33)

    I actually had a similar conversation with my parents and I was talking to them how, you know, I planning a, I don't know, we're still working on the things, but we're planning a tour for a band and they're like, yeah, you're gonna make a lot of money off that. I'm like, no. But I get to like ghosty parts of the country I haven't seen before. get to like, I'm going on vacation and hopefully I won't lose money doing it.

    Zoe (1:07:48)

    God no!

    Scott (1:07:58)

    And it's fascinating, you mentioned like, I've been booking tours for bands for free and now bands have gotten to the point where they're insisting on paying me. It's still not a lot of money, but I find the thank you of the small amount of money kind. But like, I'm not making a business out of this in a sense that it actually is like sustainable. I would have to book like 200 tours a year for it to be sustainable.

    Max (1:08:07)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:08:13)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (1:08:13)

    yeah.

    No.

    Zoe (1:08:26)

    Yeah. We...

    Max (1:08:26)

    Show you.

    Scott (1:08:28)

    No,

    it allows me to buy some comic books.

    Zoe (1:08:31)

    We run like a, like a, cause we still do patches and printing and everything. We still do clothes and band merch. We're working on shirts for a band right now. Like we do pins, we do the whole nine yards. And so we have a bunch of designs that I'll vend at a, I'll vend right beside doors and I'll be like, buy a shirt on your way in.

    Max (1:08:31)

    and

    Zoe (1:08:50)

    And guarantee we will make as much money selling shirts as we do from actually booking the entire show. And then all of the money that we without fail nearly every time all of the money we make from those t-shirts goes to like buying like, we got to get a record like

    Scott (1:08:56)

    yeah! yeah!

    Yeah,

    every record I press and sell, the money just goes into the next record. I was vending the shows this weekend, I probably pulled in $150, but I'm only charging $10 for my shirts that cost $9.95 to make. Like I'm not making a profit. I'm just taking that money and using it to do the next thing.

    Max (1:09:16)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:09:26)

    Yeah.

    Max (1:09:33)

    That's pretty much the best way to do it because you see these bands with $40 t-shirts and of course they're making money off of it. But I'm not buying a $40 t-shirt. If I see a t-shirt that's a shitty print but it's $10 and I can tell the guy I made it by hand, I'm getting five of those.

    Scott (1:09:40)

    Fuck that! Fuck, no I'm not!

    I was just talking to some bands about their albums. I was like, look, I'm pressing, I'm putting things as 1995 now online, like why only 1995? And I was like, I used to charge 25, but then you throw in $5 for shipping and then you have taxes on top of that, two, $3 spent on the state and county they live in. And you're asking someone to pay 30, $33 for record they're not going to get for two or three weeks. They can go to their local record shop.

    and drop 22 bucks and walk out and listen to it right then. And that's a hard ask. And it was maybe easier a couple of years ago, but with people in my mind, people are struggling, they're feeling the affordability like crunch right now. I would rather make less money and make sure the records are moving and the bands are getting heard versus me going, you know what? Now, now I'm gonna sell 10 of those records.

    Max (1:10:26)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:10:51)

    and I need that extra five bucks because if 50 bucks is gonna break me, if that's my do or die, then I'm in the wrong business and I shouldn't be doing this.

    Zoe (1:11:01)

    All of our shows are pay-what-you-can. Yeah, not all off.

    Max (1:11:01)

    Great.

    Scott (1:11:05)

    not a lot.

    Max (1:11:06)

    Yep, every-

    Not- Yeah. Every- I think it's not- There's an F in there somewhere.

    Scott (1:11:10)

    I mispronounce it every time.

    Zoe (1:11:12)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, no one turned away for lack of funds. It's, uh, every time without fail, um, a bit with me is I always say, bring a trinket or something. Come, give us a little object. I've gotten, I got a deer vertebrae one time. got any, yeah, like I got paid in like two quarters on a nickel. It's.

    Scott (1:11:16)

    Yeah. Yep.

    Max (1:11:28)

    I bet he got paid with a deer bird right one time.

    Scott (1:11:36)

    I find this helpful because like the bands want to see people there. That's what they want. And if I told a band, if I do not a fluff and maybe you're going to get 15 % less at the door, but you're going to have 15 % more people watch you, which would they rather have? The right band would say they want 15 % more people, the right band. And if you disagree, this band I'm not going to book the next time.

    Max (1:11:57)

    Mm-hmm. The right band.

    Yeah, the thing is I always have people message me before and hey, I can't afford it. And I'm like, I don't care. I'd rather have you there. Like, if you only have five bucks, spend the five bucks and buy like a pin or something and the band will be happy about their pin. You get to talk to the band and now you get a cool pin to show this band that you

    Scott (1:12:11)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Yeah.

    So how hard was it for you guys? You're in a lot of spaces. How hard was it for you to get trusted at all these different venues? Like, did you start off with one and like, okay, we put our trust here? Cause I had to do that when I moved here. was like, Hey, look, here's this one place I'm doing shows. Here's the videos of it. If I can do this here, I can do it at your venue. You have to trust me. Like how did you earn that trust?

    Max (1:12:48)

    So the thing is with South Carolina because the scene is very it's very small I'd say is a lot of the venues are a lot of these look at art punk venues the the first show we had to do is really hard and I kind of had like We became friendly the bookers and if I wasn't friendly with them, I would not be on the bucket It was a friend of a friend sort of situation and we had to like like listen like I named dropped a bunch of people who want to talk to the venue like try to get them like trust me, but since then

    most venues I've worked with, it's been like, hey, listen, we don't care what you do with our space, just rent it out. And if you mess it up, you won't be invited back. and that's, that's like, there's definitely been more expensive and easier we had to work with, like a lot of them aren't door cut, they're kind of just like $200 to 250, something of that range. But you know, they're easy to work with. And

    Scott (1:13:26)

    Okay.

    Yeah, I mean, most of the places I work at.

    They don't even take a cut of the door. The biggest cost I have is sound. And I'm like, two or two, $200 for good sound.

    Max (1:13:49)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:13:59)

    I don't think it's an issue. I do some shows in other places where they take like 20 % of the door.

    Max (1:14:07)

    That's pretty standard down here.

    Scott (1:14:08)

    And I think that's, you know, and there's a couple that do 30 % but like the venue has to exist. Right? When I was in the overprivileged in DC, my guitarist wrote a song called fuck the bands because we were playing this place called the sidebar in Baltimore and people were bitching about like, you know, having to pay cause they upgraded and got a sound system and had a sound guy's like, Oh, don't pay the sound guys. Like this venue didn't decide to do punk shows cause they like punk.

    Max (1:14:14)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:14:37)

    They decided to do it because they were dying and then it's working. But the dude is driving around with a beat up old Honda with a bumper half falling off. He's not getting rich, but he has to pay his bills. If he can't pay his bills, then your band who just formed three weeks ago won't have a place to play. Like the venues matter. They're not your enemy. They're part of the same ecosystem. Treat them with respect.

    Max (1:14:37)

    Thank

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:15:07)

    Pay them, because they deserve to exist. I'm sorry.

    Zoe (1:15:11)

    Yeah.

    It would be great if everywhere was like, if nobody needed money to exist, but they gotta pay rent. You have to pay gas. It's like...

    Scott (1:15:23)

    Yes.

    They have to make sure their bartenders get paid. They have to like, it's just, they have to exist. If they take a cut at the door, especially if you're doing an all ages show, an all ages straight edge show and everyone walks in, you got a hundred people in there and they're all drinking waters.

    Max (1:15:41)

    Mm-hmm. They're not making money.

    Zoe (1:15:42)

    You're making nothing.

    You're making nothing.

    Scott (1:15:43)

    Yeah, you may not

    Max (1:15:45)

    Dude, that's

    why I coffee shops.

    Scott (1:15:45)

    be aware of this, like in the 90s, when the straight edge hardcore scene was like really like at its peak, that's when all the big venues started charging a percentage of merch sales and taking a percentage of bands merch. Because like I played venues where they wouldn't let us sell our own merch. The venue had a merch person that sold it and then they took a percentage of our merch. And that all came because straight edge shows like, look, I'm sorry.

    Max (1:16:09)

    That's strange

    Scott (1:16:12)

    We're doing all these great straight edge hardcore shows and we have 300 people in here and we still have 300 bottled waters.

    Zoe (1:16:19)

    Yeah.

    Max (1:16:20)

    That's why I love-

    Scott (1:16:20)

    Good.

    What's that?

    Max (1:16:24)

    was thinking that's why I coffee shop shows because you can read there's a sober our first shows in the sober space and they were coffee shop and they can still sell coffee and they make a ton of money on coffee because they end by coffee and he singers by tea for that themselves and we're just coffee and tea and they still make the amount of money to make an alcohol but without having to be torn in plus without without having to like you know worry about not being able to put them straight at shows

    Scott (1:16:50)

    Venues focus on alcohol sales, so that's how they make a lot of their money. But like you mentioned, sober places, New Year's Eve, RBNX and Negative Raxxx played a Cava House on New Year's Eve. So they played a sober venue on New Year's Eve. I was like, perfect.

    Max (1:17:00)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:17:02)

    Sure.

    Max (1:17:05)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:17:05)

    Plug it up.

    Scott (1:17:07)

    because the people that are gonna come to a sober venue on New Year's Eve exactly the people you want to come to show anyway. So like, fuck yeah, let's make this go.

    Max (1:17:14)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:17:15)

    Yeah, the people

    going to a Kava house on New Year's Eve to go see a punk band is like the crowd you- that's a good group of people. Yeah.

    Scott (1:17:21)

    It's the crowd you want, right? It's like, that's the crowd I want right there. Those were our people.

    Max (1:17:22)

    Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Exactly.

    There's a saying I love and it's like keep shows all ages because like our punk show isn't like your place to go and drink. Like sure like you know having a bar there's great people want to have a beer at a show. However like you're not there to drink you're there to see punk bands and you're there to dance. Maybe still a beer or a first night. Yeah.

    Scott (1:17:44)

    The beer should be second and I'm a second. It should be way down there. Like

    growing up in DC, all the shows were all ages. Baltimore, they were all ages. I'm here now and I struggle with the fact that I do 21 and over shows. I do a lot of all ages shows too, but like it's just the nature of the beast. Like you had to do with the purple Buffalo, right? It's like, I want it to be all ages, but

    Max (1:17:50)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:18:12)

    I have to work within the system that exists at the moment where I'm at.

    Max (1:18:16)

    Yeah, we, if we have the choice, we do all all major shows, but that isn't that isn't always possible. We try to if we have to fight for 18 plus because I mean, twenty on plus like punk is inherent for for the youth. It's for it's for like I was 17 16 going to shows. There's 76 year olds. There's there's this band. It's a kid band. They're called Labs after very similar to that.

    Scott (1:18:20)

    yeah.

    Max (1:18:46)

    And I met them at a Waffle House for Negative Approach concert and they were like, I think, was Negative Approach 18 plus or was it all ages, Zoe?

    Zoe (1:18:55)

    It was all ages, but they were like angry about it. They didn't like that there were kids there. Yeah.

    Max (1:18:59)

    Yes, but it

    was a bar venue and we saw Negative Approach and there were these kids who were there and we were in Waffle House and I was like, hey, I like your patch. And the guy was like, thank you. we talking and they were like, 17 year old kids. We started this punk band called Latter Deaths who were looking for a gig. And we booked them for their first show and they were incredible. They're like, like circle jerks sort of sound. And they're in high school. These guys like, these guys never seen the circle jerks.

    Scott (1:19:23)

    Fuck yeah!

    Max (1:19:29)

    These guys just like, they just like know to play good music and they're incredible. And if we didn't have a space for people who like at all ages space, they would have never found punk music. They would never loved punk music. They would have never started the band.

    Zoe (1:19:29)

    Thank you

    Scott (1:19:29)

    No.

    I am not sure I would have formed

    a band in high school if I hadn't known there were places I could play. Like the very idea was like, yeah, I'm gonna play in a band and all we're ever gonna do is play like our basement and maybe one neighbor's like backyard party show every other year. I feel like that's really discouraging. But knowing that I lived in the area that I did and I would see bands that were no older than me,

    Max (1:19:48)

    Exactly.

    Zoe (1:19:49)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (1:20:00)

    Mm-hmm.

    It is.

    Scott (1:20:10)

    up on stage opening for big bands because the local promoters were always big and making sure there was local bands on the big shows. And I'm like, that is fucking great. I can do that. Like that's important. The, can do that is very important. It's part of the reason why like I try and make sure most of my shows aren't a bunch of like straight white cisgender dudes. Like not only am I tired of hearing that same like fucking storyline, but like.

    Max (1:20:22)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:20:38)

    I really want people in the crowd to be like, be able to identify with the variety. Like I have a whole thing, it's like inclusive heart led spaces. Like I want people to feel like anyone can get up there. Anyone.

    Max (1:20:52)

    Yeah, anyone can. We have a system where if a band comes to us and... It's not 100%, this band's been rude about it, so we can put them. But if a band's like, hey, listen, we want to play our first show, we'll throw them on a bill. Sure, it's a six band bill, but seven's not a crowd. So it gets on me about how...

    Zoe (1:21:14)

    Yeah

    Max (1:21:18)

    I keep booking these like seven, eight band bills because the band's like, hey, can we bring our friends? I'm like, sure. And then we're there from like 7 p.m. to like one in the morning. I'm like, sure, you know.

    Scott (1:21:29)

    people stay then it's fine. You're tired but it's fine.

    Max (1:21:30)

    People stay. Yeah.

    Zoe (1:21:33)

    No.

    Max (1:21:35)

    Yeah, I'm exhausted. But people are there. They're dancing. They're dancing one in the morning. That's all you need.

    Scott (1:21:44)

    It's, it's always that tough thing when someone's like, Oh, can you add us to the bill? I'm like,

    so hard to do. I did it once at this one venue that I do with the door. The music doesn't even start till 10. The venue is open till four. it's fucking awful. And I run like a really tight ship where I like put a timer up on stage. Like you were running a festival. Like you got a 30 minute set. If you break your guitar string and didn't bring a backup guitar, that's on you. Like this is it. Like you have this much time. You 15 minute changeovers, back lines. There was like, let's, let's go. And

    Zoe (1:21:59)

    god. Horrible. Horrible. Horrible.

    Max (1:22:03)

    That's like the one Arcadia shared.

    Zoe (1:22:10)

    I wanna go home.

    Scott (1:22:21)

    I added a fifth band because there's friends of mine and a new band on tour and they needed a show and I was like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. I didn't get home until like four in the morning. It was so awful. Cause you know, the show ended like two 30. Then I had to pack up all my gear, put it in the van, drive 45 minutes home. And I was like, and I'd been there since seven o'clock. I was like, I am a wreck. The next day my wife was like, are you going to function today? I was like, no.

    Zoe (1:22:44)

    It's hell.

    God no.

    Scott (1:22:52)

    So like, you know, I love that you do shows, but sometimes you do shows that don't just take me, take you away the day to show you're, you're, you're gone the whole next day afterwards.

    Max (1:23:01)

    That was that the weekend run we had of Negative Raxxx, RBNX and then we had a full cork to the next day. Remember when we got back we were just like...

    Zoe (1:23:15)

    wait,

    we got back at, I think it was 4.30. I think like if I would've stayed up for another hour I would've seen the sun. And I was like, I'm covered in sweat, I'm covered in grime, I've been behind the wheel, my eyes are crossing, I crashed until 1pm and I was like, this is fine.

    Max (1:23:32)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:23:34)

    And that's like, I have kids, I have to get up, have to father, I have to do stuff.

    Zoe (1:23:38)

    Yeah, you've got a life to live, like...

    Max (1:23:40)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:23:40)

    I have a wife to live. Like, I'm getting

    my PhD. I have work to do.

    Zoe (1:23:44)

    Yeah, like... You got soccer practice and it's in like two hours.

    Max (1:23:48)

    You

    Scott (1:23:48)

    Yeah, I'm take my kids

    to acting classes and gymnastics and I'm gonna take them to the go see whatever K-pop band is like doing a movie this Saturday. Like I got shit to do.

    Max (1:23:58)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:24:00)

    today.

    Max (1:24:01)

    You shit to do.

    Scott (1:24:03)

    got shit to do.

    Zoe (1:24:03)

    I

    have changed the program that I make flyers in because I used to make a program where it was all like nice and layered, everything was good. I'd rasterize it at the end, make it one cohesive layer and I'd hand it over. But there's been such a consistent theme of me finishing a flyer, everything being done. And Max coming to me and being like, by the way, just these two bands, can you just throw them on there real quick?

    And I'm like, it's already a five-ban bill.

    Scott (1:24:34)

    I

    hate going to graphic artists and asking them to make last minute changes. It kills me on the inside because I don't know how hard it is to do. But like, I also know like I literally this one guy @Brendanontheinternet I had to like, Hey, I really need you to update this. The venues changed. The other venue had like plumbing issues, yada yada. And I needed as soon as possible because the shows in 48 hours and

    He's like, I see what I can do. got to take my daughter to the lacrosse practice. And he's somehow managing to get it done within like three hours. And I threw him some extra money and he's like, you don't do this. Like, nah, nah, dude. Like it's, I paid you for the flyer, but this extra hassle of changing things and I don't know. It's, so I don't, maybe it's easy. I don't know. I'm not a graphic artist. How easy is it to change stuff,

    Max (1:25:12)

    Thank you.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:25:28)

    weird set of circumstances originally went to school for film and then graphic design and then video editing and then I almost went into audio design. Now I'm going for poli sci I've been around. And I've, I've really

    I went at it from a traditional Photoshop angle at first, but it's doing it lot more hands-on, grassroots. I now have a program on my phone too, because there's been such a trend of needing to adjust the poster last minute. I'm not going to be home for four hours and we need to this poster today. I'm doing this on the way to work.

    But if it gets done, it gets done.

    Max (1:26:17)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:26:21)

    No, it's true.

    So I majored in poli sci.

    Zoe (1:26:26)

    We're twins.

    Max (1:26:27)

    Do it.

    Scott (1:26:27)

    twins. Yeah, so

    by my whole dissertation topic is how to use nonfiction graphic novels to engage in historical empathy for marginalized histories. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So but I was a poli sci guy that became a teacher because I got a poli sci degree living in DC and my wife made me move to Florida and I said fuck

    Max (1:26:39)

    Hmm? Oh yeah.

    Zoe (1:26:39)

    Hell yeah. Good

    shit.

    Fuck. How did you? Okay, not to hate. How are you a polisci major and you move out of DC? to... What happened? What happened?

    Max (1:26:52)

    you

    Scott (1:26:56)

    Okay, hey.

    No, no, no, no, you hate on.

    Literally, my wife and I were going to have our first kid and our parents have divorced and remarried and all eight of them lived in Florida. And she said, you know, it'd be really good if we live in Florida and you're all the grandparents and your band is recently broke up so you can form a new band. And if you're in Florida, you can tour during the winter, during the south and you could tour during the summer up north.

    and it'll give you every chance you can do all that. And I got down there and I started getting my master's in poli sci. And then I realized there was just no value in it if I was gonna live in Orlando for the next five or 10 years. So I switched to a master's in social studies education, became a teacher thinking I'd have summers off to go on tour. But then I had back to back kids.

    Max (1:27:35)

    Hehe.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:27:53)

    Yeah, it hits you. Life

    Zoe (1:27:53)

    It hits you. It hits you all at once.

    Scott (1:27:56)

    just hits you. And then like 2016, I was finally back on track again and the band was starting to go and we had a tour booked and then the pandemic happened. Yada, yada, yada. And I was like, fuck Florida, I'm done. I'm done. I'm so done.

    Zoe (1:28:09)

    Get me out of here!

    Max (1:28:13)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:28:15)

    Yeah, yeah, it's moving away from DC when you're a polysci major is like, why would you do that?

    Zoe (1:28:15)

    I get it. It happens.

    Yeah, what happened?

    Scott (1:28:24)

    I literally had professors that were on like the Colbert Report and stuff like that. Like I could have had, and like he's one of my closest like, you know, supporters. was like, I could have had great connections. I could have done who the fuck knows what. But then again, I'd be living there now and dealing with fucking Trump and.

    Max (1:28:35)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:28:39)

    Florida

    called your name.

    Yeah, so maybe it all works out.

    Scott (1:28:45)

    Yeah, I would have been doged for sure.

    Max (1:28:45)

    Yeah.

    I think that one thing that, so I originally went to school for engineering and then I realized that I did not like engineering. didn't want to get, I was really going for engineering and you know, the whole path, know, get an engineering job and then like work for like big defense company and like make evil money. And I was like, I don't want to do that with my life. I like, there's no world where I don't end up there because that's all the jobs they have for this. So I just like, I'd rather, I'd rather, you know,

    Zoe (1:29:09)

    Evil, evil money.

    Max (1:29:19)

    do something I'm passionate about and do something that's like a good career option.

    Scott (1:29:23)

    Yes. And

    that's it. Like when I was first lived in Florida, I had a job at a law office and I made really good money, but I hated every minute of every fucking day. And I tell my daughter, was like, I took a huge pay cut because in Florida, they don't pay teachers very well.

    Max (1:29:32)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:29:41)

    Really? What, social studies in Florida? You get paid?

    Scott (1:29:46)

    They don't pay us very well.

    Max (1:29:46)

    Huh? Huh?

    Scott (1:29:51)

    Starting pay for a teacher up here in New York is $63,000. My pay with a master's degree in Florida after over a decade of teaching was $45,000.

    Zoe (1:30:01)

    45? You're j- no!

    Max (1:30:01)

    Thank

    Scott (1:30:03)

    You know, yes, $45,000 a year. And just so you know, I used to manage a Starbucks in the nineties, the nineties. was 20 years old. was managing a Starbucks and I was making 38,000 plus bonuses. And then I eventually made it up to 43 plus bonuses. So without a college degree in my early twenties and the nineties, I made the same amount of money as I did with a master's degree.

    Max (1:30:25)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:30:29)

    no.

    Scott (1:30:34)

    of 10 years of teaching 20 fucking years later as a teacher. I use what that does sink into everybody. What the fuck is wrong with our world?

    Zoe (1:30:43)

    my god. Yeah,

    and you stayed in Florida! You- you were in DC! Not to- I understand, it happens. It-

    Scott (1:30:50)

    no, no, no. You, you, you

    trust me. My older kid, especially she's off getting her law degree at Buffalo. So she's all about like, I can't believe you left that dad. I guess she understands more and more. She's like, why would you ever leave there? I was like, I did it for family.

    Zoe (1:31:07)

    Which is noble and good and whatever. And like, you wanna be a teacher to like help the kids or whatever, but 40... $40,000 a Oh my god. Yeah, you're right, that's 10 % of your pay. Let me not... 5,000 a year is 10 % of your... Oh my god.

    Scott (1:31:14)

    And I love teaching. Teaching was great.

    45 come on don't minimize it 45

    Yes, don't take that 10 % from me. And

    Max (1:31:30)

    I think,

    I think he.

    Scott (1:31:32)

    mind you, that was what I did at the end. I started at like 38.

    Zoe (1:31:39)

    my god.

    Scott (1:31:40)

    Yeah, I was

    Max (1:31:40)

    I think that's

    a good point.

    Scott (1:31:41)

    making it in the mid-80s or something when I quit my job at a law office to be a teacher.

    Max (1:31:45)

    Mm. Or.

    Zoe (1:31:46)

    Horrible. That's a

    horror story. Absolute horror story you're telling me. Absolute nightmare you're telling

    Max (1:31:53)

    Third.

    Scott (1:31:55)

    My daughter's like, why didn't we have money when we were younger? was like, let me tell you. He's like, why don't we have money now? was like, well, daddy's on a stipend now and I only make 25 grand a year. And I'm not allowed to work except during the summer.

    Zoe (1:31:59)

    Yeah

    But

    Max (1:32:06)

    Bye.

    Zoe (1:32:09)

    your

    record label though, the money you make.

    Max (1:32:12)

    Next!

    Scott (1:32:12)

    Yes,

    all the money I make.

    Max (1:32:16)

    Hahaha!

    Scott (1:32:18)

    Between that and promoting shows with the money I made on tours like RBNX I'm rolling in the door. like Scrooge fucking McDuck.

    Zoe (1:32:28)

    I'm

    Max (1:32:28)

    It's so funny. It's so funny when people ask like, oh, like that's really good. You must like have some good money now. Like, must be great with all these shows. And I'm like, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:32:29)

    It's like duck tails all day long here.

    Zoe (1:32:38)

    No.

    Scott (1:32:39)

    No.

    And like, and the bigger shows are like, no better. Cause it's like, I've done shows with that pens, Kill Lincoln and MDC. And I'm like, I cover so much of those guarantees. I'm like.

    Max (1:32:53)

    Mm-hmm, you're not.

    Scott (1:32:55)

    If I make $200 on a show like that, once again, that just covers flyers and hospitality that I covered. All I'm doing is breaking even.

    Max (1:33:01)

    Mm.

    Yeah, and like, I don't know, breaking even do something you love is far better than being rich and doing something

    Scott (1:33:13)

    I love what I do. You love what you do, which is why I had you on this podcast. I respect you both very much.

    Max (1:33:18)

    Thank you.

    Thank you so much. We absolutely adored working with that RBNX / Negative Raxxx and you. was absolutely lovely.

    Zoe (1:33:22)

    Thank you. We respect you.

    Scott (1:33:32)

    you were marvelous to work with. I was like, I didn't throw this invite out to everybody on their tour. Right? Like I'm like, okay, I'm working with different performers. I'm like, yeah, I'm working with you.

    Max (1:33:34)

    Mm-hmm.

    Thank you.

    Scott (1:33:46)

    I was like, okay. I was like, I mostly talked with Max. So I believe I'm not sure I'm out there. We, you and I talked, but I was like.

    Zoe (1:33:50)

    Yeah.

    Max (1:33:51)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:33:52)

    They do all the actual shit. I make a cute flyer sometimes.

    Scott (1:33:56)

    Do not minimize your responsibility and role in this.

    Max (1:33:58)

    Enough.

    Yeah,

    it's...

    Scott (1:34:01)

    Your

    presence here is because max knows you're an equal partner.

    Max (1:34:06)

    She will always undervalue how much she does and it's always like I'm like I wouldn't be here without you like even just like like I'm like sending you know Hey, is this like like a professional email or is it's like me like saying random stuff and like

    Zoe (1:34:12)

    the

    Okay.

    Scott (1:34:23)

    And the thing is, as the years go on and you keep doing this sort of stuff, your roles and responsibilities will change and some of you will do more and some of you will do less. But the important thing is it's a partnership where you care about each other. Like that comes through.

    Max (1:34:33)

    Mm.

    Zoe (1:34:36)

    It does. At the end of the day.

    Scott (1:34:38)

    I

    know, I heard it, I got you. So just so know, this is the longest interview I've ever done so far. Yeah, no, no, I mean, there's just so much to dig in. Normally I cut it off a little bit after an hour, because I don't want to take up people's time, but I have so many things to talk to you about, and I've just enjoyed it so much. like, yeah, like I never go an hour and 30 minutes.

    Zoe (1:34:41)

    Some bullshit. Some bullshit. Whatever.

    Max (1:34:47)

    Really?

    Zoe (1:34:48)

    We're yapping. It's okay. We talk.

    Max (1:34:59)

    We're enjoying it.

    That's, so part of the top secret here is part of the reason why our shows go so long is because we'll be packing up when we get out of here and then we'll start talking with all the people at the show and the bands, which big group people, who's like, oh, this guy, this is his first show. She just moved here. She'll be going to shows in like, know, Virginia for a while. And we're all just talking and hanging out. Like the PA's like half disassembled. The band, like the drum kit's like in five different places. And we're just sitting there like two hours ago. It's midnight. The show ended two hours ago.

    Zoe (1:35:30)

    Psst.

    Max (1:35:34)

    Okay.

    Zoe (1:35:34)

    wait.

    Scott (1:35:36)

    My pack

    up would be so much slower if I didn't have Al aka Arsenic and Willie. Cause they'll be like, shit, Scott's doing that talking thing again. And they're done and they're packing up all the stuff and they're loading my van up. Then like Scott really has to work in the morning. We have to go. like, okay.

    Zoe (1:35:54)

    Okay, okay.

    Max (1:35:56)

    That's very, very true. get like... I think that when a band has work in the morning, it's for the better because that means that they'll be like, we actually have to get out of here. Like, let's hang out for another three hours. And, you know.

    Scott (1:36:07)

    Yeah. Oh,

    I would hang out all night long most of the time. I'm like, at a certain point it's like, I'm done.

    Zoe (1:36:10)

    There's-

    Max (1:36:14)

    Yeah, you got it.

    Zoe (1:36:14)

    I have to...

    I have to take Max's keys at some point and I have to be like, I'm getting at the car. Like, I will be driving away in two minutes. whether you are there or not, you must be.

    Max (1:36:25)

    I, all notes,

    all notes, time to go, because everyone will tap me, they'll be like, Max, keys, and I'm like, okay, we have to go.

    Scott (1:36:33)

    Yeah, yeah, it's and it's just like what I was like, are you ready to go yet? I'm like, no, but you are. I understand social cues. I heard the subtle cue there.

    Zoe (1:36:41)

    You

    Max (1:36:41)

    Mm-hmm.

    Hahaha!

    Mm-hmm Fine and then like I'll end up just like texting the band for the rest of that anyways, so Yeah

    Scott (1:36:48)

    I will pack up and leave. We're done.

    wow.

    Zoe (1:36:57)

    You

    Scott (1:36:58)

    I come up when I basically go to bed usually. Unless I make myself an egg white omelet.

    Max (1:37:01)

    Yes.

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:37:03)

    You forget

    we have a two hour drive home.

    Scott (1:37:06)

    You do have a two hour drive home. Yeah. But most of my drives are no more than

    Max (1:37:07)

    Two hours on my phone like I'm in high school.

    Scott (1:37:12)

    an hour home.

    Zoe (1:37:14)

    What I would give.

    Max (1:37:16)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:37:16)

    And I've got like

    Poughkeepsie, New Paltz, Kingston, Woodstock, Albany, Troy. So I have like five or six venues all within an hour.

    Zoe (1:37:25)

    You're surrounded.

    Max (1:37:28)

    You're reminding me of this. I went to Woodstock when I was really little. And there's, I remember the name of the task you went there and it doesn't make sense that knowing it. There's like the amazing bakery that won one of those TBC baking shows and we went to Woodstock just for them. And I was gonna ask if you've been there but for the life of me I cannot remember the name.

    Scott (1:37:49)

    holy shit. What's the fucking bakery?

    Zoe (1:37:49)

    You're awful.

    you guys both can't not remember it. This is horrible.

    Scott (1:37:54)

    my god.

    Max (1:37:57)

    You

    Scott (1:37:57)

    No, no, no, like I'm gonna be

    like, hold on, I'm gonna like type the Google thing, bakery Woodstock.

    Max (1:38:00)

    It was like something with pretzels.

    Zoe (1:38:05)

    frankly have no

    idea.

    Max (1:38:06)

    Yeah, I... I... What?

    Scott (1:38:08)

    Is it bread alone?

    Bread alone?

    Max (1:38:12)

    That sounds about right.

    Zoe (1:38:14)

    Yeah?

    Scott (1:38:14)

    Yeah, people

    love that place.

    Max (1:38:16)

    Yeah, I have not been in New York since I was 14 years old. And when I lived there, like I said, Kipsky, I know I've been to Kipsky. I think added that just came there. I think like I saw Hudson Valley hardcore on one of the bands bios. And I'm like, Hudson Valley is where I'm from. Like that's like it was like it was mind blowing for me. Like, you know, peak skill.

    Scott (1:38:43)

    I've not been there to be honest with you, no.

    Max (1:38:46)

    No, that's like, when I think of Hudson Valley, think of peaks, that's where the waterfront was, where you see the actual Hudson Valley River.

    Scott (1:38:52)

    Yeah,

    I tend to go no further south than say Middletown and then I come up through Poughkeepsie and Newburgh.

    Max (1:39:00)

    Mm-hmm that one I

    Zoe (1:39:02)

    I have a bunch of friends from

    Littlestown. I've got a bunch of friends from Littlestown. I've heard okay things about it. I didn't, I thought they were lying whenever they told me that Littlestown was a place.

    Scott (1:39:13)

    You know, it's Hudson Valley

    Max (1:39:14)

    I'm

    Scott (1:39:15)

    is a great scene. There's a lot of stuff going on. There's a lot of different people waiting for different things to happen. You know, when I got here, a lot of it was like heavy hardcore, which is great. Kev always does interesting stuff, know, from Negative Raxxx, but he does a whole bunch of, we got everything from like dark wave to like Japan crust core

    Max (1:39:17)

    Really?

    Zoe (1:39:18)

    Yeah?

    Max (1:39:24)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:39:40)

    He's really, really good at bringing those international bands in. And then Holly has been running this zine called Outsider Magazine. She does all ages VFW whole shows in New Windsor one Friday a month. And she also leans towards the punk rock. But I was like, I'm going to do mixed bills you can't do mixed bills. like, do mean I can't do mixed bills? Well, you either got to do a heavy hardcore show or, well, that's really pretty much all we do here. I was like, but what if I don't?

    Max (1:40:04)

    Mm-hmm.

    Zoe (1:40:04)

    Haha.

    Scott (1:40:10)

    What if I put a cross-punk band on there with a ska band and an oi band and a skate punk band and like a thrash metal band? How will that work? Like, that's not going to work. I'm like, I bet it will. I bet people are like me, like more than one type of music. And you know what? I'm going to put a folk punk person and they're not going to open. I'm not going to make the person with the acoustic guitar be the opening act. I'm going to put them in the middle.

    Zoe (1:40:23)

    Watch me

    Hehe.

    Max (1:40:38)

    So

    Scott (1:40:39)

    I'm going to have them go between the grindcore band, right? Right? Yeah. And the eighties hardcore band. Cause I can do that. Cause I don't think fucking the acoustic guy always has to open.

    Max (1:40:46)

    off.

    We have a friend who plays a lot of... She plays amazing folk punk. It's absolutely outstanding. It's Little Death and she's actually staying at my house tomorrow night. But, what do call it? I have like five people crashing on my floor tomorrow night because I have show tomorrow so you know how it is. But she's not playing the show, she's just coming up to see the show and she's also crashing on my floor. But anyways, is...

    Zoe (1:41:16)

    Yeah.

    Max (1:41:19)

    There were so many bills where we'd have her on playing first just because she was the acoustic act. And I'm like, I'm not going to keep doing this to you. like, and like the next show she's on, have her, she's headlining this. And then the band's asking like, oh, you know, oh, she's worked. She can't get there in time. But like, it's my, it's, it's going to work with the bill.

    Scott (1:41:39)

    It's totally fine. People will sit through stuff. So the shows that I do once a month, I only charged $5 originally. Now it's five to 10 because there are always benefit shows now. But I had a person at the bar there during the day and he's like, you know, Scott, I've come to your shows for $5, five bands. I usually like three of them a lot. And the other two are okay.

    Max (1:41:40)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Hmm?

    Zoe (1:42:05)

    Yeah?

    Scott (1:42:08)

    Not my style, because you do so much different stuff. But for five bucks?

    Max (1:42:13)

    Sure.

    Scott (1:42:14)

    I'm happy to come here and like if there's a band that I don't care for, they only play 30 minutes and it's $5 for a PBR and a shot here. So I'll just have my $5 PBR and a shot and wait for the band. Yeah, have a cigarette.

    Max (1:42:21)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:42:26)

    Go have a cigarette.

    Max (1:42:30)

    The first show, the show that Triangle Fire was on that we actually met them at was a ska show and it was a it was a ska punk cause there's not enough ska in South Carolina to have like some local support and like half the bands were ska punk so like why don't we just combine them and it was a skate punk band, skate punk, boy, they're kind of all over place, band, three ska bands and then Triangle Fire and Triangle Fire did all their songs ska.

    Scott (1:42:57)

    fascinating. God, I love that band.

    Max (1:42:59)

    It

    Zoe (1:42:59)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (1:42:59)

    was crazy. Tandy was... Is it Tandy? She was like, yeah, so we don't know why we're on a ska build, but we love ska, so here's all of our songs with like ska now. And it was like, they're like circle pit, they're like... All their hits, they played like ska style, and it was awesome.

    Scott (1:43:03)

    Yes, I think so.

    That is amazing.

    Yeah, when I booked them in the area here, I was so excited to have them. And I told them this, so nothing I'm telling you is different than what I told them. was like, but they were touring with two other bands. I was like, that is really difficult. When you do a tour with three bands and you need me to give you a show on a Wednesday, and I can only put one local band on the bill.

    Max (1:43:27)

    Mm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:43:46)

    That is

    a really tough bill to do. And then I got angry because then the local band booked a show at the same venue the next day and announced it three days before the show. I'm like, seriously? And I talked to them because they were young kids. And I was like, you know, that's kind of upset me. They're like, really? I was like, yeah. And like some promoters would actually be like actually angry at you. I'm more like, I'm going to use this as a teachable moment. And in the future, if I book you a show,

    Max (1:43:49)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:44:16)

    And if you're the only local band on the bill especially, please don't book another show the next day in the same town, let alone the same fucking venue.

    Max (1:44:21)

    Okay.

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:44:27)

    Mm-hmm.

    It's horrible.

    Scott (1:44:28)

    Just saying,

    right?

    Max (1:44:30)

    We

    really only do weekend shows. It's very interesting because this summer all of our shows have been Saturdays up to this point. And then we've had some Fridays and Sunday shows. Those are very few and far between. But this summer we have a couple of shows where we have a couple of weekday shows. so I'm curious to see how that's going to go because the South Carolina scene specifically is a very... We have shows Friday, Saturdays, and then Sunday and Thursday sometimes, whatever it is about them.

    Scott (1:44:45)

    Okay?

    Max (1:44:56)

    People are like, oh, it's a Thursday show. I don't want to go to Thursday. I have work the next day, people go anyways. And I have a band that's coming through on a Monday, and I have a band that's coming through on a Wednesday. And I'm like, I'm curious to how that's going to go. if we have more shows during days of the week, just means more shows. If I can have a Wednesday show, a Friday show, and a Saturday show, and that's three different, like 12 different bands minimum that can play.

    Scott (1:45:13)

    Yeah!

    Zoe (1:45:17)

    Hell yeah.

    Scott (1:45:22)

    It's consistency, right? Like if people get used to coming out to the shows and the shows run on time, I had this whole mantra that might put the punk in punctuality. My shows always start exactly on time. And it's like, it's really important to me that they do. I had this, young woman, I was at a show and she's like, yeah, I went to a show at the same venue that you weren't running last week. And it was very disappointing. She's like, what do you mean? It's like, well,

    Max (1:45:34)

    So do ours.

    Scott (1:45:49)

    When you do a show, I'm a single mom with two kids and I hire a babysitter, I roll in and I get there right before the first band plays and I only stay for like two or three hours, but I get to see all, I get to see three hours worth of music and it was great and I appreciate that. This other person was running the show and I rolled in there and I waited 90 minutes for the first band to play and then I got to see one band play before I had to leave and I paid a babysitter for that. And she said like, was very disappointing to me. I was like, I'm very disappointed for you.

    Max (1:46:14)

    Cool.

    We, we, so a lot of venues are on here. they run in very heavy punk time. And so one of the things that we tell you, we start shows is I'm like, we're starting on time. If, I tell bands like, listen, loadings and our four doors, let us out for doors. They have an hour of doors. You don't get here within that two hours. Then like, I'm not, which, unless like you're like having really bad circumstances, like we can't, we're starting on time.

    And we had a band once that was running behind their plumbing, like, please don't start without us. I'm like, 15 minutes is fine. You're stuck in traffic right now. You're stuck in traffic. You're missing your basis because you got sick day off. You're having an awful day. We can pump some time for a bit for you. But people, the second you start being unreliable when your shows start,

    He will start being unreliable company shows.

    Scott (1:47:19)

    Exactly.

    Now that people know, because I've been doing shows for a year there, they know my shows start on time and the opening band always has people. You have to train them. And that was the point of my message about like you doing weekday shows. Once they know the shows are happening reliably and that they're going to end it a decent enough hour that they can get home, like not two in the morning, then they're going to come.

    Max (1:47:25)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    They will.

    Scott (1:47:45)

    If you tell me

    that there's a Wednesday night show that the door is going to be at 7 and music's at 8 and the show's over at 11, I'll be there. You told me the door's at 7 and the show's at 8 and the music doesn't start until 930, I won't come back. I'll be like, nah, fuck this.

    Max (1:47:52)

    Exactly.

    Zoe (1:47:58)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (1:47:58)

    Exactly.

    There's an awful show I went to and I won't name anything about the venue or the people involved, but they consistently show up to shows late and there was a festival they had and doors were at 2 p.m. and the first band went on the spot.

    Scott (1:48:19)

    Shut up.

    Max (1:48:20)

    I stayed from 5pm, my friends band was playing so I was going to go to support. I stayed there from, I got there at 3pm, I got another way to start late. And I stayed there from 3pm to midnight. And they were on band 5 of 12.

    Scott (1:48:35)

    And like, I even tell bands, I'm like, look, don't ask for an extra time to do an extra song. Unless the people are cheering for an encore, don't ask because if every band plays an extra five minutes, if there's five or six bands, that means the last band is going on 30, 40 minutes later. And we've all been in the last band and let's respect that band. They deserve to play to people.

    Max (1:48:41)

    minute.

    Okay.

    And like the other thing is when a band is

    the other thing with that is change around time. And I've had bands, I don't, I don't usually work with like slam bands or deathcore bands. They all have, they are a lot more picky with their equipment. And there was one time I had a band and they brought one, I had the local in the background, kids, the men's like, Hey, you want to use our kit? I'm like, you can use your kit. But then everyone else is using it.

    Because I'm not changing how the kids between sets. That's like a 30 minute tab. I know you're not fast as a dude 15.

    Scott (1:49:31)

    Yeah, I know.

    Max (1:49:36)

    But.

    Zoe (1:49:38)

    There... I'm, I'm, it's reminded me of that one show, we went to a show and the, one of the bands, the third band had a backtrack, had like a backing track and they didn't, they didn't inform anyone at the venue that they had a backing track and they were like, okay, put the backing track on. And the venue accommodated it and we sat outside for 45 minutes and then left. It's like...

    Max (1:49:47)

    Yes!

    Scott (1:49:47)

    Okay.

    Max (1:49:54)

    RIP

    Because they

    took forever to set up and the thing is is that unless you're playing, it's my belief that if it's as important to be able to change around and get ready quickly and have everything set up quickly, because I plan on myself to be loaded and loaded up quickly, but I think it's as important for bands to able to load in and load out quickly. Because that means that they can play sooner, the less time between bands, the more you keep momentum going.

    Scott (1:50:32)

    If a band starts tearing down their drums on stage, I lose my ever-loving shit.

    Max (1:50:37)

    Yeah.

    Zoe (1:50:37)

    Mm-hmm.

    Max (1:50:38)

    I'm not even a drummer and me too.

    Scott (1:50:39)

    It's

    yeah. So I remember the one the last time I played the tin roof in Charleston, they told me I had to like use the back lines drum set and I was like, that's fine. Except I'm a pro and I would have my entire drum set and cymbal stand set up outside while the band before us is playing. I would set it all up outside for a quick change in, but I'll use it. Of course, the band before me takes the drum set that everyone's sharing and switches it to play left handed because he's left handed.

    Max (1:50:45)

    Thank

    Thank you.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:51:07)

    So then I come back, had to switch it to be right-handed, which is more work than if I just brought up my own fucking drums. And then the clutch on the I had is weird and it slices my hand. I'm like, it's fine. But I could have been totally prepared because I was used to playing shows at the sidebar in Baltimore and like setting my drums up in January in the cold on the sidewalk and carrying it in when the other band was done and then carrying it out covered in sweat, catching pneumonia. Cause that's what you fucking did.

    Zoe (1:51:13)

    You

    It's fine.

    Max (1:51:20)

    Mm-hmm.

    That's what you do.

    Scott (1:51:38)

    Like you just were ready.

    Max (1:51:39)

    Yeah, and I think it's more of an issue of the main reason why I'm sure this will change in the future. I'm so like, I get so like angry about people switching around drums is because every time I've not seen many bands that can do it fast, do it fast and efficient. And like, if I had you playing a show and you're like, listen, I can get these drums switched in like 10 minutes. I'm like, you know what, go for it. I trust you. Like you can, if you tell me you can do it fast, then whatever happens, it's not my business.

    Scott (1:52:06)

    If

    they already have it set up on, if there's some space, either inside or outside where they have everything set up and all it is is carried in and move it, that's fine. But if they are pulling it out of their drum bags and sending it up, fuck that shit. Sorry.

    Max (1:52:10)

    Okay.

    Mm? Mm.

    Zoe (1:52:20)

    Yeah, fuck off.

    Max (1:52:22)

    That's

    good to know. I actually hadn't considered that you can preset it out and carry it in. I'll add that to my list of things.

    Scott (1:52:28)

    yeah. Yeah, if

    they want to use their own kit, then they're setting that shit up in whatever back room or side space or outside wherever the loading area is. And they're going to like have it set up. So it's just a carry in situation.

    Max (1:52:42)

    That reminds me of, saw No Cure over the winter and we looked over to like the green room which wasn't the green room, it kind of just like next to the stage and there were like four different kits set up and it really funny because they all had the kits set up in a line. But you know...

    Zoe (1:53:00)

    Yeah

    That's how they wanted it.

    Scott (1:53:04)

    Do you ever try and just organize the bands and provide a backline to avoid all this?

    Max (1:53:08)

    Oh yeah, every show we make sure there's a back line of drums. We provide marked drums in PIA, of course. But the first thing we do as soon as we launch is, hey, who's bringing drums? And usually what I'll end up doing is I'll message whichever band's the closest so you don't have to drive like four hours to get the kit. I'm hey, you guys live five minutes down the road from this venue, can you bring a kit? They say no, I'm at the next closest. And sometimes the band will be on tour and just have a kit with them. Sometimes the band will like,

    Not a good kid. may look close so another man will bring it, but.

    Scott (1:53:41)

    I think I mentioned

    that like, RBNX would backline if they needed to, but they'd prefer not to since they're on tour.

    Max (1:53:46)

    Yeah, and Molting brought their kit just fine because they live right there.

    Scott (1:53:49)

    Yeah.

    Just as when you're on tour, if something breaks and you're fucked.

    Max (1:53:53)

    Yeah, you

    Zoe (1:53:53)

    Yeah.

    Max (1:53:54)

    don't... I would never expect a touring band to bring a kit. Even a band that's coming from traveling from out of state.

    Scott (1:53:59)

    they bring it.

    They bring it. And they'll even share it. It's just the less they share it, the better they like it, which I get.

    Max (1:54:05)

    Yeah,

    very much that.

    Scott (1:54:09)

    So, all right, I am sorry, but we have to wrap this up. We are at two hours and I've drank enough liquid that I'm gonna have to like visit the little, whatever you wanna call it. Like I can't hold it in much longer. But I have loved chatting with you. I mean, seriously, I'm so glad I met you both. I'm really excited to work with you again in the future.

    Zoe (1:54:11)

    You're gonna cut us off?

    Max (1:54:15)

    Okay.

    Zoe (1:54:24)

    Thanks for talking to us.

    Max (1:54:24)

    Thank you.

    Zoe (1:54:29)

    Yay.

    Max (1:54:36)

    You definitely will.

    Scott (1:54:37)

    Please email me all of your Instagram Zoe's, if you have Instagram for your art that you do so people can reach out to you for your art for both of you, like send me everything you want me to put in the description. Thank you everyone that's listening. If you're booking a tour in the Carolinas, definitely reach out to Max and Zoe. If you're a person who says, oh, I want someone to help me booking shows in the Northwestern PA, reach out to Zoe. Zoe's got time on their hands. They're doing nothing. They're just graphic arts and political science.

    Max (1:55:00)

    Okay.

    Zoe (1:55:04)

    figure something to do.

    Max (1:55:05)

    Hahaha.

    Zoe (1:55:06)

    Yeah,

    it's...

    Scott (1:55:07)

    They need something to do. I don't really know what's on Zoe Max. If you want to come to the Hudson Valley ever, like please let me know. I'd love to have you come up here. It'd be an utmost pleasure. I've just enjoyed you both. Thank you so much. Like this is, this has been an absolute treat.

    Zoe (1:55:16)

    Hell yeah.

    Max (1:55:20)

    Thank you.

    Zoe (1:55:24)

    I've heard

    your dining room is very comfortable to sleep in. Okay, okay. It's alright.

    Max (1:55:28)

    Ha ha ha.

    Scott (1:55:29)

    That was my old house where I had a carpet. I have hardwood floors now.

    Max (1:55:32)

    Okay

    Scott (1:55:35)

    But yes, you are welcome to

    sleep under my dining room table anytime you want. And my children are old enough now that they're probably not going to throw stuff at you. had a common enemy sleep in my kid's guest room once and they had like these, this weird monkey where you threw it in and scream, and that's how they woke up. The band members, they were like four and two at the time.

    Max (1:55:44)

    Get it.

    Zoe (1:56:00)

    I like it, I like it, that's good.

    Max (1:56:00)

    I like it a

    lot.

    Scott (1:56:02)

    It's good stuff, but thank you all very much. I truly appreciate it. And for those of you listening, please go to the description, follow them, follow DCxPC, subscribe to the podcast, go to my website, buy some fucking vinyl. It would really help me put out more vinyl. Like I'm not a nonprofit, but I'm certainly not a prophet.

    Zoe (1:56:04)

    Thank you.

    Max (1:56:06)

    Thank you.

    Zoe (1:56:07)

    Thank you for your time.

    Max (1:56:27)

    You're non-profit, but not intentionally.

    Zoe (1:56:30)

    I'm

    Scott (1:56:30)

    Wow, that sounds worse. Capitalism. I'm a

    Max (1:56:33)

    Hahaha!

    Scott (1:56:38)

    political science major, not an economics major.

    Zoe (1:56:41)

    Yeah, there's a reason. There's a reason. Thank you so much.

    Max (1:56:41)

    Yeah, that's

    Scott (1:56:43)

    Yeah, there's a reason. There's a reason. All right. I'm going to go ahead

    and say, stop.

    Zoe (1:56:48)

    Have a good night.

  • Episode 29: Jeremy Hayes

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive from the bookers and sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators. We're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska and metal shows After decades in bands and behind the scenes. I know the work it takes to keep a scene going. And today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out.

    This week on Scene Support, I'm sitting down with Jeremy Hayes, a Baltimore Maryland based recording, mixing and mastering engineer who's been in and out for 20-plus years. Jeremy graduated from the Sheffield Institute for Recording Arts in 2005 and since then he's built a track record that spans studio work, live capture and the kind of behind the scenes consistency that keeps DIY music moving. One of the biggest projects on his resume, Jeremy mixed and mastered Teenage Mortgage's first EP, plus singles from their 2021-2023 releases.

    that have racked up over 40 million streams. Jeremy also produces and mixes and masters for Ottobar TV. And since January, 2025, he's recorded more than 40 live sets at Ottobar, including Trapped Under Ice, Angel Dust, Drain, The Adverts, Young Widows, Scowl, Castle Rat, Jive Bomb. I could go on. He's currently working on a new record for, may I say it? Am I allowed to say it, Jeremy? Am I allowed to?

    Jeremy Hayes (01:34)

    You

    Go for it, yeah.

    Scott (01:39)

    All right, Riverboat Gamblers

    Jeremy Hayes (01:39)

    Yeah.

    Scott (01:40)

    Gamblers. God, I love that band. He can't divulge too much, but it's one there. He's going to talk a little bit about it. Maybe it's their first studio album in 10 years. And on top of all that, he plays bass in an alt surf band, but we're not going to talk about that. His band is Mean Sea. This is a show about Scene Support, not about the music people play. So we'll mention it one more time. A great alt-rock surf band called Mean Sea and that's the last we're going to talk about it probably.

    Jeremy Hayes (01:46)

    Sure, sure.

    That's a mouthful, man. Jeez, what a sprint.

    Scott (02:06)

    How you doing, Jeremy? I'm glad I stopped

    doing the teleprompter. I used to do the teleprompter and I could never get the speed right. And there were times where I'm like, I'm just going in a clip and I'm a fast talker anyway. But like, even being like, my God, that I need to catch a breath.

    Jeremy Hayes (02:24)

    Well, you do it well. I can barely formulate a sentence on my own, congratulations. That was great. Good job. I could tell.

    Scott (02:28)

    I appreciate that. I can drop bars. I can drop bars.

    So this is our first time meeting. I'm really stoked to meet you.

    Jeremy Hayes (02:38)

    Sure, yeah. Which is kind

    of crazy. I'm really surprised we haven't crossed paths at shows or, you know, because we all kind of have mutual friends and bands we work with and stuff like that, you know?

    Scott (02:52)

    I mean, '05 Is that when you were in Baltimore? How long have you been in the Baltimore area?

    Jeremy Hayes (02:56)

    I've been in the Baltimore area for my whole life, but as far as like playing in bands and recording, 2005-ish is kind of the start.

    Scott (02:59)

    Okay.

    Yeah, so I've been playing like

    Baltimore since the 90s, you know, the loft. You know, I played the sidebar. I don't know how many thousands of times I met my wife there. I proposed to her there. I helped start the charm city art space in Baltimore. I played the Ottobar. So I used to play in the overprivileged and the twats. So basically hardcore punk bands. don't know if that's your normal scene or what's your normal scene.

    Jeremy Hayes (03:08)

    Okay. Mm-hmm.

    nice, cool.

    Right on, cool.

    A little bit all over the place. I mean, started playing in metal bands and then anything from pop-punk to stuff that leans a little more hardcore. Yeah, you it's always kind of stayed in like guitar heavy type of shit, basically.

    Scott (03:55)

    And that makes sense. You know, I'm like, and I appreciate that. Like you have a broad range of at least within the guitar-based work. I sometimes get shit cause I do shows and I'll put like ska bands on with like a crust bands and then I'll throw wins like, you know, some skate punk bands and a post-punk band. And I'm like, why do I want to hear all Ramonescore all night long? No, I do not. I, I like more than one guitar-based music. Yeah. But I go to shows all the time. It's like, Oh,

    Jeremy Hayes (04:13)

    Mm-hmm.

    No, I hear you. Yeah, people get protective over bills. Mm-hmm. The diversity is nice. Yeah.

    Scott (04:25)

    It's like five, you know, beat down hardcore best, which are great. But I'm like, after five of them, like I'm really beat down. You know?

    Jeremy Hayes (04:31)

    Yep, I hear you. Whereas,

    yeah, you need a little bit of variation.

    Scott (04:36)

    Little bit. And since you do engineer work, you have to have an ear to like more than one thing. If you said, I am only going to record or do a sound engineer for surf punk bands, you would be limiting yourself immensely.

    Jeremy Hayes (04:50)

    Might have a little less work, that's for sure. yeah, mean, it's good.

    Scott (04:53)

    A little less work. Did we meet?

    I was like, did we meet at the metro in Baltimore when Sick Move was recording?

    Jeremy Hayes (05:01)

    Yes, I do think yeah, yeah, Mm-hmm Yeah, thought yeah, I was gonna say that we had to have met somewhere and I finally I got it here finally got my copy of this and Yeah, dude, the artwork is just killer Dave does such a good job at this stuff. Yeah, I'm hanging out up here

    Scott (05:03)

    Okay, so this is our second time meeting because I was at that show.

    there you go. See, that's me in the bottom left-hand corner there.

    Dave is great. He just came out on last week's

    podcast. Yeah, he's phenomenal.

    Jeremy Hayes (05:28)

    Yeah, he

    he's just killing it with this stuff. It's it's so good. But yeah recorded this it's and And finally got my own own copy which i'm stoked stoked to have but and thank you Yeah, I thought it came out really well that actually Was the first live recording like that that i've done, you know, obviously I did the sick move record and know the studio album and

    Scott (05:32)

    Yep. And you did such an excellent job.

    Jeremy Hayes (05:58)

    Dave hit me up and he's like, would you record us at Metro for the release? And I'm like, well, I don't normally do live recordings, but fuck it, why not? How hard can it be? brought some gear out, connected my laptop and mixed it back here in the studio at home and it came out great. And then a buddy of mine, his band was also playing at Metro a couple of weeks later, recorded them and a guy there

    named Tracy Conway bumped into me and he said, Hey, I heard you're recording tonight. I happen to be filming. Could I get the audio and I'll add it to the video? Yeah, sure. Long story short, he's now working with me doing Ottobar TV because he works for Ottobar and he does video stuff as well. they've wanted to get a YouTube channel together for quite a bit. And he hit me up and said, Would you have an interest in doing this? You know, I said, of course.

    Scott (06:43)

    Which is great. Yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (06:56)

    I'd love to and you know, people talk and directions change. I never knew if I'd hear from him again. And sure enough, two weeks go go by and he calls me and goes, Hey, you still want to record? said, Yeah, of course. How about trapped under ice? Like, yeah, definitely. So the first Ottobar TV was was trapped under ice, which was, you know, a killer sold out show and, you know,

    Scott (07:11)

    That's amazing. Nope.

    it was a banger video too. I watched it. I checked out your

    stuff. I didn't know you did Ottobar TV until David Gregg told me when I had him on, had him on the podcast. I was like, shut up. That is goddamn brilliant. And you know, cause I have a live album record label. So I'm like, I love live stuff. And I'm like, this is so well done. And like for you having kind of just started doing it, it's phenomenal. Cause

    Jeremy Hayes (07:28)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (07:46)

    I have like two go-to people that I use for recording live albums, one in Florida and one up here in New York, and I try other people at random. And it's really hit or miss because sometimes I don't know if the sound engineers is like, I'm just going to like do a straight board recording, but then I don't get the different stems or I get the room sound or whatever. you know, it's, it's a learning curve for most people.

    You know, I've done Camp Punksylvania side stage now the last couple of years and Garrett, he's great. But every time he's done, he's gotten better and better, but he only does it like once a year. And you know, I watched Josh in Florida Danger Room Studios. You know, he's been doing it for me now since my second release or my first one really, because we did it at a live stream and like he's just got it down. But like that was, you just hit it out of the park. You like, oh, I'm going to do it my first time. It's going to be a fucking banger. You're done. How'd you do that?

    Jeremy Hayes (08:40)

    Well, I think

    my approach with the live stuff is really just to mix it pretty much the same way I would have mixed an album or anything else. I think with live stuff, and not everyone does this, but I think a lot of people tend to be a little bit conservative with how they mix it. Like they tend to maybe not use as much EQ or maybe not, you know, maybe trying to keep it sounding natural. And I get

    Scott (09:07)

    Yes.

    Jeremy Hayes (09:08)

    I get the idea there, but the problem with live stuff, when you're in the room, you have the advantage of tens of thousands of watts hitting you in the chest. You're getting that, the bass drum is hitting you right in the chest and everything is just loud and the energy's there. But then when you listen to a live recording at home, even if you have a good stereo, you're never gonna reach that same amount of energy and volume. So for me,

    Scott (09:33)

    Sure.

    Jeremy Hayes (09:36)

    I'm trying to counteract that. So I'm to do everything I can to help that mix along. if that means, you know, pushing the boundaries and throwing every single trick in the book that I have at that mix, you know, I'm going to do it. So I really just mix it like it's, you know, a record, same time and attention. And yeah, it seems it seems to be working out. It seems seems people are enjoying it. Yeah.

    Scott (10:01)

    Yeah, no, mean,

    it's really good. When I started the label and I would send records off, I got a lot of reviews, or like, for a live album, it sounds good. But it's gotten to the point now where I send it the same place, I'm like, you know what, it just sounds good. But it's an uphill battle because so many live records are so poorly recorded and or poorly mixed and poorly mastered. Like the whole trifecta can be fucked up. But you've gotta get all three.

    Jeremy Hayes (10:24)

    Right, Mm

    Scott (10:30)

    And like you seem to nail all three of them right off the bat. And I generally feel like the recording is where it starts. I mean, I've been to places like, hey, I've got permission from Escape from the Zoo to record their set tonight. Can you do it for me? Here's a hard drive and I get home and I listen to it and it's just all vocals. I'm like, what the fuck did I just pay 50 bucks for?

    Jeremy Hayes (10:38)

    Yeah.

    Sure.

    Yeah, and you really have to make sure that not only are you getting the individual tracks off the board, but also you need to get some room mics. I always set up my own pair of room mics, which is literally just a stereo X, Y zoom recorder. And I do it that way so that if anything were to go down on the board end or my laptop, I can always have a backup at least. But I use that as my room mic. So that captures.

    the crowd, get the cheering and the energy from people yelling and screaming and all that. And then it also just kind of adds that room sound. So you get a little bit of natural feel, and it doesn't sound like you're in a vacuum. Sometimes you get a room. Yeah, sometimes you get like a mix that's just what's off the board and you can mix it as good as you can, but you don't want it to sound like it's in this unnatural space. You got to have some of that room sound, that room reverb in there.

    Scott (11:31)

    Yeah, the room mics are really essential.

    Jeremy Hayes (11:48)

    and the room mics really help with that a lot.

    Scott (11:52)

    I've had a couple people that I've worked with that have like double mic things. It's like this is the mic that they're putting on the amp for the room and this is the mic for the recording. Have you done it that way before or do you always use the same mic for both?

    Jeremy Hayes (12:05)

    So for capturing at the venue, like for Ottobar, I'm rolling with whatever the front of house engineer is setting up that night. I trust them. They know the room better than I do. They know the mics that they have. So I let them, the only thing that I'll be particular about is making sure that they get overhead mics up, obviously, so I can get good coverage of the drum kit. But other than that, I let them do their thing and it generally works great. I do like, you know, more mics.

    Scott (12:31)

    Okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (12:35)

    can be better. But sometimes, you know, just throwing a million likes at a thing can also just make things convoluted and more difficult to mix down. Yeah. But yeah, it all really just depends. But the biggest challenge really with like small venue recordings at places like Ottobar and Metro is just the amount of bleed that happens, you know, I'm

    Scott (12:46)

    overly complicated.

    Jeremy Hayes (13:02)

    I'm doing a lot of editing on the vocal mics to get the cymbal bleed out and you know, it's a small room so everything comes in that mic. That vocal mic's got guitar in it, bass, cymbals, yeah.

    Scott (13:09)

    Yep. And you say those are small, like the Ottobar has like

    300 people or capacity, right? 250, 300.

    Jeremy Hayes (13:17)

    Sure, but I mean in that size room, you know, those mics are picking everything up. You know, you're not really getting much isolation.

    Scott (13:22)

    Cause I've, I've done, um,

    recordings of shows like the size of the sidebar or the old Ottobar. And like, I just recorded a show, um, it's a place called snugs in New Paul. So my guy, Dez, he had to rearrange everyone around and he's like, look, I know this is where you normally stand, but I'm telling you I've recorded in this room based on the size of this small room and the bleed here, the drums would really be like, and they listened to him it was all good, but like,

    Jeremy Hayes (13:29)

    Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    Scott (13:50)

    He's had to record there a couple of times and be like, okay, how can I make this work based on this band too? Because some bands, you know, they have like, you know, there's the quiet singer with the, you know, vice versa is like, you know, it's a lot of like, it's not the same for every live band. So like, do you do prep work before you do a band? Like do you listen to them? Are you very familiar with everyone? Yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (14:12)

    yeah.

    Definitely. Yeah, I mean, we we we look at the calendar, you know, several months in advance, we pick out the stuff that we think will sound good, do well, that people are going to want to check out on YouTube on the channel. And then I generally when it comes time, usually the day of the show, I'll sit down and listen to if I'm not already familiar with them. mean, majority of the stuff at Ottobar probably know it know it.

    Scott (14:41)

    Yes, this

    tends to be up there. I recorded at the Ottobar.

    Jeremy Hayes (14:43)

    But especially

    when it comes time for mixing, I will sit down and listen to at least, if it's not just their popular songs, I'll skim a couple of records. And I'll try and, while mixing it, match the energy and the tones and the sound of the record because it's their art, it's their material. I'm not trying to put my...

    my taste and my flair on it. You know, I'm going to make it sound as good as it can, but I want to listen to the record and say, all right, you know, I'm going to try and make the guitars and the drum tones sound, um, sound similar. And, uh, it's definitely a crucial part going and listening through the records and trying to match.

    Scott (15:28)

    Before they like go up to like, um, of our TV, how much feedback to the bands give you? Do you let them review the tracks or do you just toss them up there and assume you got it right?

    Jeremy Hayes (15:38)

    We obviously, we always get permission. So anytime we pick a band to record, we have to go through the proper channels. So sometimes it might just be the band themselves. They may not have a manager or maybe it's just a tour manager. We always like to make sure it's clear with the band and anyone that's out with them. And if there's a label involved, we reach out to them. But in terms of like mixed feedback,

    Not a lot. mean, I always will send stuff out and say, hey, you if you want any tweaks here, let us know. We don't really get a lot of, you know, change lists or requests that people have, you know, fingers crossed have just been like, sounds great. Roll with it. Yeah, which is good. I I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything, but yeah, it's not a lot of back and forth. It's definitely not like working on a record where, you know, you got the lists of

    Scott (16:23)

    Awesome.

    Jeremy Hayes (16:35)

    of revisions and stuff like that. But we do, we keep bands in the know, you know, I, as a musician myself, I know that I would not want something released that I don't approve. So we're very careful with making sure that all parties involved are cool with it and they like it and they can get behind it.

    Scott (16:54)

    that makes sense. When I record a band, I tell them that the recording is free and they're like, why is the recording free? I was like, look, now I've been doing it five years. When I started, I was like, you don't know me. You're gonna get up on stage and for all you know, you're gonna break a string, your drummer had one drink too many, or who knows what the problem is gonna be. And red light goes on and you follow your heart and your heart lays a fart, cosmic shame sort of stuff. I was like, so.

    Jeremy Hayes (17:21)

    Sure.

    Scott (17:23)

    know, Tenacious D quote there. like, but like here's the deal. It's like, I'm going to record it. And if you like it, then I like it. We can talk about putting it out. If you like it, I don't want to use it. You can do whatever you want with it. Put it out on any format you want. Just note that I recorded it. And if you hate it, I delete it forever. But regardless, it's free. And they're like, that's pretty low risk. I was like, yeah, it's, it's not meant to be hurt hurtful to you. It's meant to be something that we both enjoy doing.

    Jeremy Hayes (17:25)

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah, that's the way to do it. Yeah, yeah.

    That's pretty much exactly what we do. There's an email that goes out to the band and their tour manager, manager, et cetera, and it says along the lines of, there's no charge here, there's no fine print or hidden stuff. If you like it, you like it, we can use it. If you don't like it, whatever, we move on. There's no pressure, and I don't want to put stuff out in the universe that a band is not happy with.

    Scott (18:16)

    No, no.

    Well, why would you want to write like I'm I'm recording a Camp Punksylvania like I said, I've done that before and I have the new comp coming out and I said everybody they're set and there were like 17 bands I recorded. There was one day we couldn't record half the bands because of the storm and they moved to another location and it was too hard to remove the recording aspects that we were doing and bands like, you know, they picked their songs and there's a couple of bands that right out that said, you know what?

    Jeremy Hayes (18:26)

    That's cool, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (18:48)

    You know, these rough mixes actually sound really good, but we, we shut the bed and we don't want to report it out because we just didn't play well enough. And then there was a band that I got all the way to the mastering part and they said, you know what? I'm sorry. You have really made this sound good. So good that I hear all of our errors and I can't handle this. He's like, if you really need to put it out, you can. And I was like, no, I will remove your song from the compilation. There was absolutely no reason I ever want to put out a song.

    Jeremy Hayes (18:53)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    It happens.

    Scott (19:18)

    that it's gonna make you go, gosh, I'm embarrassed by that. Why would I ever do that to a band? You know, it's just.

    Jeremy Hayes (19:21)

    Yeah, that's the right way. And you can't

    get emotionally attached to it because it's easy. You know, you work on a mix, you have time invested in it, you put your heart in it, you feel that it sounds really good and you're proud of it, and then it can be deflating when the band's like, just can't take it personal. It is what it is and I have to go into it. Yeah.

    Scott (19:36)

    Yep. My sound guys, I was like, my God, my

    mixer master's like, but it sounds so good. was like, buddy, I love you. They said no. He's like, but I was like, they said, no, I am not going to argue with the band. I take their first no and I move on. Yeah. It's their song.

    Jeremy Hayes (19:48)

    Mm-hmm.

    The artists will hear things that you don't, know? Yep. And they're going to hyper-focus

    on certain things and it's just... It is what it is. But you got to be able to move on and just jump onto the next thing, for sure. And we've had that happen with Ottobar TV We had a... I'm not going to throw their name out there. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but...

    Scott (20:02)

    it it is exactly what it is yep but I like my new guy up here

    Jeremy Hayes (20:17)

    You know, we got all the way through mixing, all the way through mastering. The whole video got edited. It even got posted for a brief period of time and they finally reviewed it and they just said, look, it sounds great. We had some stuff that was off, especially with some vocals and harmonies. You know, we've, we've got to have you pull it down and you know, I was disappointed. It sounded good, but I get it. You know, if you're not, not happy with it, not comfortable, we'll take it down.

    Scott (20:18)

    I feel that. Yeah.

    And that's exactly how it should be. mean, it's sad that it got that far. They should have been able to say no earlier. But that's only happened to me once when I've got all the way to the master stage.

    Jeremy Hayes (20:49)

    It happens. Yeah. But also it's hard. mean, you got a band that's on tour.

    Sometimes it's hard to get a quick response because like for that band, they were still out on the road. you know, even if I send them mixes early on, I mean, I hear back for hell a month, you know.

    Scott (21:08)

    Yep. And even like, where do they get a chance to listen to like my guy will send me stuff. In a day later, it like, have you listened to it yet? was like, nah, dude, I haven't had a chance to listen to it. I don't listen to my shitty laptop. You know, I need to listen to it on something that sounds good. Yeah. I listened to it in my car, but even that's not my best thing. Like for me to really listen to it, I need to like put it in through my MP3 speaker. That's really nice. And like sit here and listen to it.

    Jeremy Hayes (21:14)

    in the van, know, on their phone.

    Yep.

    Scott (21:37)

    You know, it's like, want to, I want to play it through my good system and really hear it, not just like through my earbuds on my phone.

    Jeremy Hayes (21:42)

    Yeah,

    do you have like a favorite listening spot in the house or are you listening on the go generally or what?

    Scott (21:49)

    I mean,

    I have my office room in right now. So here I've got, you know, a record player and I have like a giant MP3 CD tower that has like a really quality sound and I can hook it up to like my Bluetooth like over headphones as well. So it's like, I can do either one and it just sounds much better. But yeah, in my, in my room, because I,

    I have a downstairs where I have my better stereo system, my record player, but my wife's office is downstairs so it's always inconvenient that I want to listen to a test press. And she's like, can you turn that down? I was like, but it's a test press. I need to listen to it. Well, how much of it do you need to listen to? was like, all of it? Why all of it? was like, because I need to check that every track is good from start to finish. I don't know how to explain it any differently. was like, I don't just put it on, I like, oh yeah, their sound is good.

    Jeremy Hayes (22:24)

    get it cranked up.

    Yeah, yeah.

    The whole thing.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, and that's gotta be nerve wracking sitting there listening through the physical release, just like looking for issues, because you press a lot of stuff. It's crazy.

    Scott (22:54)

    I do.

    I did 50 records in the last five years.

    Jeremy Hayes (23:01)

    Wow,

    yeah, that's a lot of listening.

    Scott (23:04)

    It is a lot of listening. I found like the pressing plant I work with right now is probably my favorite precision pressing. know some people will give me crap because they got bought out by the Czech Republic company. they're up in Canada, but their customer service is bar none the best I've ever had. They catch every minute error. When I put in the track lengths and I'm off by like 15 seconds, they send me an email to make sure that I like have everything's exactly lined up.

    Jeremy Hayes (23:34)

    Yeah, is this

    right? Yeah. That's what you want, yeah.

    Scott (23:35)

    If it's like the type

    is off on the spine a little bit, they'll like say, Hey, can you approve this? By the way, here's a comment. We move your spine to this level. I mean, it's just such quality and they do the express thing without the test pressing. And because of their quality, I've used that a couple of times and I've never had a problem. Whereas I've worked with other places that were not, they didn't respond to emails. They didn't tell me what, what.

    Jeremy Hayes (23:54)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (24:04)

    delay was like these people were like hey by the way I know we said we were shipping this record but there's a customs issue in Canada we're gonna send you this form it was like I didn't even know it was delayed yet whereas another place I'm like I'm calling them every couple days going what's going on and it took them a month to just tell me their children was broken and that's why the record was delayed but these wouldn't tell me and I don't work with them anymore

    Jeremy Hayes (24:07)

    Mm-hmm.

    Got it, yeah. Yeah, the communication's

    key, yeah. That's great. I mean, it sounds like a perfect partner. Especially for something like that that's, yeah. I mean, that's your business and it's also a band's work that's near and dear to their heart. So having that good relationship and getting quality stuff from them, that's crucial, yeah.

    Scott (24:30)

    Yeah.

    So I love them.

    And it really is, it is, is quality stuff. And you know, like, you know, David did the cover for the sick move record. He did an impeccable job. I sent it in, it was fine. Every now and then I have other artists that do the covers and they just don't follow the rules. It's not high, def enough or whatever. And I get rejected and then I just go back and get it fixed. Yep. And all these things happen and

    Jeremy Hayes (25:08)

    Yeah, the all the templates and then as little things you can get hung up on. Mm It's easy to miss.

    Scott (25:18)

    I used to have a graphics person that worked for me that did stuff on like a contract basis. And I've done most of it myself this summer, but like, and I'll use the materials the band sent me is like their logos or their photos. And if they're not in high enough quality, which I'll be honest, that is not my skill set to recognize. I'll do my best with it. You know, sending it, I don't have Photoshop or anything like that. You're the one canvass, cause I'm a whatever I am. And it got to the point where there's some, right. So many things get rejected. said, Hey Scott, can we have a meeting with you? I was like, yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (25:22)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (25:48)

    So they had a design team of three people plus my account manager there to sit down and walk it through me and then help me come up with a template and instructions step by step for the artists. Like they did this because they're like, look, we don't want to keep hassling you. You, you, do a lot of records with us. You're super nice. Yada, yada, yada. We want to help you move faster on this stuff. I can tell you're getting frustrated and it's not your fault. What can we do to help your artists know how to do their work better?

    Jeremy Hayes (25:57)

    That's incredible. Yeah.

    Scott (26:18)

    I'm like, thank you.

    Jeremy Hayes (26:19)

    That's great, because

    I feel like most companies are just going to be like, they'll just keep sending you that rejection email and saying it's not right until you're blue in the face. And the fact that they engage with you and want to come up with a better process and teach you something along the way, that's killer. Super good.

    Scott (26:24)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    So I'm

    like, I will be with these people for as long as I can. Like, yeah. They treat me with respect and so I'm there.

    Jeremy Hayes (26:40)

    That's how you get a customer for life. Yeah, that's how you do it. That's customer service perfected.

    That's amazing.

    Scott (26:49)

    I think the first time I actually rejected a test press was my very first 7 inch and it was my fault. I sent in the wrong tracks.

    Jeremy Hayes (27:01)

    Well, you know.

    Scott (27:01)

    My own band of course,

    because everybody that starts a record will be able to put out their own band. And I got this 7-inch and I put it in and I was like...

    Jeremy Hayes (27:05)

    Right, right. At least

    it was your own band that that happened to.

    Scott (27:09)

    It was my own, but I started to pay

    to redo it all over again. New test press and everything like that. was like, son of a bitch. Because it was live and we had the last track, we had cut out a minute of banter to fit it on there. And when I sent it with the minute of banter, we had two versions. And then the song got cut off at the end. was like, well, that was my fault. That was all my fault.

    Jeremy Hayes (27:23)

    Sure, yeah.

    D'ahhh!

    Well, you know sometimes the you know, these are these are lessons learned right so you won't do that again

    Scott (27:43)

    No, no,

    no, no. So, you don't have to worry about cutting out banter because you're doing everything on YouTube. Have you done any other records though? Like I know you did the Sick Move record. You do? Okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (27:50)

    we do. We do prep some stuff. Yeah,

    I mean, yeah. So it depends. We try not to get too in the weeds with editing and cutting stuff out. But sometimes you just get a set that is an hour and 20 minutes long and maybe something happens mid set and someone's taken too long to tune. We'll cut it out because it just makes it a more enjoyable watch for the person that's sitting there.

    Scott (28:16)

    Okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (28:19)

    you know, on their couch with it on and not having those long gaps. So we do cut down a little bit. Maybe there's a little bit of banter that is if you weren't in the room, maybe it's a little out of context. So we'll cut that. But it happens. You know, we don't have a strict runtime on YouTube. But again, we don't want it to be 120, you know, an hour and 20 minutes for no reason. If we can tighten it up a little bit, it helps. Just makes it

    Scott (28:47)

    No, I get that, I get

    that.

    Jeremy Hayes (28:49)

    It keeps the energy up too. You know, when you're getting from song to song in a good pace, you get more into it, your viewer, your listener's gonna be more likely to stick around.

    Scott (29:01)

    How many videos would you say you've done so far?

    Jeremy Hayes (29:04)

    As far as posted on the channel, I think 16 right now. Yes, we've been at it since January of last year. So it's been just over a year and we did full 15, 16, you know, full sets. We are going to start doing some smaller shorter. We're going to always do like full sets, right? Those will go straight to YouTube, but we're going to start doing some

    some more clipped out, either individual songs or like 30 second pieces that are more geared for like Instagram reels, just so we can have a little bit of a faster cadence with the content. You know, our passion is definitely the long sets because I love personally, like if I'm at home cleaning or just getting chores done, I'll throw a live concert on the TV, crank it up and...

    Scott (29:42)

    Sure.

    Yeah!

    Jeremy Hayes (30:02)

    I love it. So I'm trying to provide that same thing for for Ottobar and we'll always do those long complete sets. But I also want to have some quick snappier content for Instagram and to kind of fill in the blanks because we can only really do about this. Just two of us. You know, I'm doing the audio stuff. Tracy's doing all the video so we can do about two two videos a month, I'd say is our average right now. So

    Scott (30:03)

    It's great.

    Okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (30:30)

    I'd like to sprinkle in some shorter stuff along the way.

    Scott (30:35)

    If you've ever want to say go like do an Ottobar tv compilation and press it to vinyl you take one song from each band or something like that if they if any bands would be interested i know i know a record label that would be interested

    Jeremy Hayes (30:44)

    I'd love to do that. That would be killer.

    I think you also know, I think there's a record label and maybe even a pressing company and everything. You might have the whole deal.

    Scott (30:56)

    Yeah,

    yeah, I got a whole deal, you know, those promotions. I have distribution.

    Jeremy Hayes (30:58)

    I wonder who that is. I if

    this person's hard to get a hold of.

    Scott (31:06)

    I am probably one of the fastest responding motherfuckers out there

    Jeremy Hayes (31:11)

    That's a good quality to have because man sometimes it just gets lost in the noise these days. But yeah, I would love to do that and I know Ottobar would as well. So we should talk about that. Let's figure it out.

    Scott (31:17)

    I am.

    yeah, I would definitely we should talk about

    office. We don't want to do business on this but like Compilations full albums, whatever Ottobar's interested in I would be all in on that. We just we just leave it at that Yeah

    Jeremy Hayes (31:28)

    Mm-hmm.

    That'd be super cool, yeah.

    We're trying to do more and more. I mean, you know, our first

    year we managed to We had zero subscribers at day one and we're well over four thousand now, you know, we've got a bunch of videos out We're trying to do some merch. We're gonna Just keep it going. So

    Scott (31:45)

    Fuck yeah!

    And it's interesting,

    my distributor, and I didn't really talk to him much about this, he wants to know if I'd get into digital distribution of videos. He's like, there's a lot of money to be had in that. was like, is there now? So I could share his name with you later if you want, so.

    Jeremy Hayes (32:00)

    Got it.

    What kind of so yeah, when you say? Yeah,

    sure, yeah, when you say digital distribution of video, is that just like like digital releases like to streaming platforms or?

    Scott (32:15)

    Like digital video, video,

    like, like, like YouTube, like basically finding a ways to like monetize a YouTube videos. Because, because what you're doing is something that like has been an envision of mine, but like, you know, I'm a one man operation and this last year, like, cause I've been, I've done like 35 shows and now I have a consistent sound guy. I've got a photographer. I've got a stage hand. I've got a door person.

    Jeremy Hayes (32:18)

    Cool, okay, yeah.

    Sure, Yeah. Cool.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (32:41)

    And I'm like, you I'm a promoter. do like five different venues in the Hudson Valley. I don't have a videographer. So like the idea of doing everything you're doing is in my head, but it's like, like you said, it's just finding people that are consistent, that will be there, that are doing, that do well and that you can be trusted to do it. It's, it's, it's not, it's not a, it's not an easy thing.

    Jeremy Hayes (33:00)

    Well listen, if I can help in any...

    Well, you know I'm easy to get a hold of, so I'm happy to help anywhere in the process. We have similar goals.

    Scott (33:09)

    You are, you are.

    So what other, have you done any other vinyl

    records besides Sick Move?

    Jeremy Hayes (33:18)

    Yeah, I mean, I've done some just mastering projects that are, you know, stuff that's already mixed by other people that they just need a vinyl master done. I've done, I just finished a record for a band called Wynton Existing and a really cool like psych rock band out of Nashville. You know, they're doing the whole digital release, vinyl release. Yeah, I've done quite a few, yeah.

    Scott (33:43)

    Yep. So you master it for digital,

    you master it for vinyl. Two separate mastering, yep.

    Jeremy Hayes (33:47)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Yeah, I mean, you're I don't have to say it. Vinyl is obviously super popular now. So a lot of a lot of bands, even if I often recommend, know, even if you don't need it immediately, it's easier for me to provide the vinyl master while we're already in the session and ready and at it. So I can just add that on for, you know, it's not a ton of extra work. And that way you have it. You don't have to come back to me six months later and say, hey, know, remember that project you worked on? need a vinyl master.

    You just have it ready to go.

    Scott (34:20)

    You're like the fourth sound guy I've had on my podcast. So I have question for you. My fifth sound guy. All right. Should you always separate the mixing and the mastering with different people or does it not matter? Hill of fucking beans or should the same fucking person do it?

    Jeremy Hayes (34:24)

    Sure, all right.

    Generally, I think you should have different people and the reason why is when you're mixing something, you're obviously spending hours and hours and hours and hours listening to that mix and you're doing everything you possibly can to make it sound the best that you can with your ability and you're also working with the band to get it the way that they want it. So you're inherently biased. You've done everything that

    Scott (34:42)

    Okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (35:06)

    you think that you can do. So what else are you going to do in mastering? Yeah, sure, you can do the, you can make it louder, et cetera, et cetera. But so much of mastering is that quality control portion and having another fresh set of unbiased ears listen to that mix. And maybe they'll find that it's a little bloated and 200 Hertz, you know, maybe the top end is a little dull. They're going to get that frequency balance and give you that extra couple percent that

    You know, the person that's already been listening to it for a thousand hours, their ears are fried on it. They're already biased. And I think as a rule of thumb and there are, yeah, I mean, there's some guys that are really great at separating the two. And there's some times where I do have clients that are on a time crunch, budget crunch for whatever reason. And I just end up having to be the guy that masters it. Generally, what I'll say is, all right, look, if this is the route that we're going to go, I always recommend, hey, let's go to somebody else.

    Scott (35:42)

    All right. We're at about 50 50 now. 50 50.

    Jeremy Hayes (36:05)

    I have a list of people that I will try and steer them towards that might be good on a budget or good on a tight deadline. if they want me to do it after mixing, say, let's take a few days off. Let's at least put a little bit of time and space between. because you'll come back, even after two days, you'll come back and listen and go, oh, wow, yeah, that bass is way too much going on there. know, oh.

    Scott (36:21)

    Give your ears some rest.

    Jeremy Hayes (36:32)

    All of a sudden there's sibilants in the vocal that you didn't catch before. But I like to try and have them be two separate people for mix and master.

    Scott (36:41)

    Okay, okay. I've literally heard both things. I've heard exactly what you've said and I've heard people say, nah, I hate it. I mix it and then the person who gets it masters and fucks it all up and it ruins it. And I'm like, okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (36:53)

    You know, and sometimes it's also tough as the mix engineer when you get a master back because you've again, like I just said, you've already done everything you can to make it sound as best as you can and you really like that mix and now it comes back and it sounds different. So yeah, it is easy to go well, you know, I don't like this. I like the way it sounded before but you know, sit on it for a day or two. And then you might go, all right, yeah, maybe they tighten the low end up a little bit. You know, maybe it did need to be brighter.

    Scott (37:16)

    Yeah.

    Maybe. One of these days, I spent all the 90s and stuff, would be like, before I found punk rock, I'd buy Led Zeppelin CDs, like, remastered. I was like, did it need to be remastered?

    Jeremy Hayes (37:36)

    Yeah, I mean, that's such a gimmick, though, you know. That kind of stuff is silly. Yeah, you know, I get that. A lot of it is just the record label wants to sell another couple of 50,000 copies because we can sell the special edition remaster version that's just, you know, 10 DB louder for no fucking reason, you know, but I mean, there are some remasters

    Scott (37:39)

    I was like, yeah, like why do I need a remastered? It was fine the way it was. It's ridiculous, right?

    Another copy. like, yeah, we're going to say we're going to say remasters over here.

    slightly different.

    Jeremy Hayes (38:06)

    that do sound better or maybe it was something that was done, you know, I can't think of a good example right now, but you know, bad recordings, bad masters happen. Maybe it does benefit it, but you look at stuff like Zeppelin or, you know, Beatles, Beach Boys, et cetera, you know, the typical things that get remastered a million times over. You didn't need it. It's silly, yeah.

    Scott (38:19)

    They do.

    It doesn't change anything.

    I hear no difference. So do you prefer doing the live setting now that you've been doing it or do you prefer being in the like the studio recording a band? Or do you prefer mixing and mastering?

    Jeremy Hayes (38:39)

    Hmm

    I think I like them about the same. They're kind of different things. Because with the live recording, you know, I'm obviously there interacting with the bands in the room. You know, I get to see the show, feel the energy. With the recording aspect of the show, I connect my laptop, I run Pro Tools. Once it's going, I don't really have to babysit it. So I'm often providing an extra camera angle. So I'll be moving around filming a bit.

    Scott (38:48)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (39:14)

    Well, keeping an eye on the recording. But I like being there, you know, I get to experience the whole show, then I get to take it home and mix it. But then again, if I'm recording or mixing something that's studio work, I think there's a little bit more of a

    It feels a little more special in a way because it's new material. know, stuff that people haven't heard. know, a lot of times the live stuff is, you know, it's already recordings that were already out. But you get that kind of that satisfaction of a brand new record being released and seeing what the reactions are and the band hearing it for the first time and their fans and their friends. And that's kind of a unique, fun, fun piece of it.

    So I like them both the same. It'd be tough to one over the other.

    Scott (40:05)

    Huh?

    That's cool that means you have like a broad swath of rad things to do Do you ever do just use straight-up sound in venues like without recording anything or you ever just be a sound person?

    Jeremy Hayes (40:13)

    Yeah.

    No, that's not my area. I know when when to stay in my own lane and live sound is not my not my thing. You know, it's a different piece. There's different processes and rules and I don't. Nope. Not for me. I let the. Yeah.

    Scott (40:21)

    Okay, there we go.

    Okay, that makes sense. like,

    I think one of my earlier podcasts, I had a guy named Tony Budd. He's a sound guy at a place called Will's Pub in Orlando. And he's like, yeah, I know you know he's a sound guy here, but I started as a recording engineer at a studio. And then they said, hey, we also studio guy or sound guy tonight. Can you do it? was like, I've never done live sound. And he's like, it's a whole different animal. I'm not sitting in there spending 30 minutes making sure the mic is right on the snare drum. I have three minutes to make sure the mic's right on the snare drum.

    Jeremy Hayes (40:53)

    Yeah. It is. Yeah.

    Scott (41:02)

    And you know, the room keeps changing as people come in and out and all sorts of shit. He's like, it was, I have no problem. He's like, I love it now that I'm done doing it, but like going from doing it in a studio and be doing it live, it's like a totally different animal.

    Jeremy Hayes (41:17)

    It's a different beast and I don't want to try and pretend. There's way too much on your shoulders doing live sound. And I think, sure, I'd be able to hack my way through it. could make it work. But if there was an issue, man, I'd just be lost. I don't want, you know, there's people in the room that paid good money to be there. The band is also depending on you. And yeah, not for me. Not for me.

    Scott (41:41)

    Nope. That's like,

    my guy up here, Dez, he does the live sound at all my shows, but he also records sometimes at the same time and how he manages to both like deal with having to record the band and make sure their sound check for the recording. But then also like manage the live sound and he's walking around with his iPad and you know, like I said, I'm not a technical guy, but I know what good sound sounds like and I can tell when he's paying attention. what do you call it? they're, they're, they're from.

    Jeremy Hayes (41:50)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (42:12)

    your area from DC rise to fi. I don't know if you know them. They came up and played my area and Jack used to play in The Rejekts used to play in the Spitfires United back in the day. He was like, yeah, I was playing and he saw me toggle my guitar to do like a solo and he pumped up the iPad. I could see him like pump up my guitar and he's like, he's paying attention. He's like, I am so used to sound guys. He just walk away. I was like, you got a good sound guy. I was like, thank you.

    Jeremy Hayes (42:16)

    Mm-hmm.

    Sure. That's great. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

    Yeah. Yep, they said it and forget it.

    Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's the kind of person you want to hold on to that loves it, is passionate about it, paying attention. Yeah. No sleeping behind the board. Yeah.

    Scott (42:43)

    I pay him to be good.

    yeah.

    that really cares.

    No, no, he is, he is on top of it to a point where I had to actually teach him to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Cause he will like, my God. It's like, no, you have to start. He's like, we start on time. We put the punk in punctuality. It's five o'clock. We have to go. He's like, but it could be better. was like, no, it sounds great. Only you hear what you're hearing right now.

    Jeremy Hayes (42:58)

    Don't you?

    Yep. What does...

    What's that saying? Perfection is the enemy of progress? Something like that. Yeah, I mean, at some point it's tough because, you know, in the industry we're in, you know, especially with mixing, you know, you want things to... I don't want to say that you're chasing perfection, but you're trying to make the performance sound as good as it possibly can. So it's easy to kind of...

    Scott (43:17)

    Exactly. I was like...

    Jeremy Hayes (43:37)

    get stuck in that rabbit hole of just beating something to death, but at some point you have to know when to go, all right, I've done everything I can at this point. Anything else I do is just gonna make it worse. Move on, keep going.

    Scott (43:45)

    This is what it is. Yeah.

    Because it's, you know, even like in the studio, is usually you might have time to have a conversation with the guitarist about, you know, maybe changing some levels, something like that. But, you know, you don't know this guitarist, you're just a sound guy at the venue. They walk in, they put their head up on their cabinet, and they're ready to go. And you put them back in, like, their highs are too highs for this room. And you can give them a suggestion, and they can look at you and say, I don't know you, I'm gonna do what I wanna do. You know?

    If they were in your recording studio, that's different. Like they paid you for your, for what you're doing. They have the time. You can have the conversation, build the trust, but it's hard to build that trust in a, you know, 15 minute setup time between bands.

    Jeremy Hayes (44:29)

    Yeah, and so much of that also is just learning how to talk to people. I think that there is a, sometimes a lack of that in this line of work where people just, you you have to, and I spent a lot of time in retail in my younger years and it really helped with just being able to talk to people and especially in a stressful situation. And...

    Scott (44:33)

    Yeah, there's a skill to that.

    Jeremy Hayes (44:55)

    communication is key and explaining the why, know, hey, let's maybe try this because this, this and this and maybe the result will be, you know, something a little bit different that works better for this room or for the studio, whatever. But just talking to people like they're people. I think there's a lot of a lot of arrogance in the live sound in the studio world. So I try and talk to people like like they're humans, you know, and at the end of the day, they're paying you to do a job, you know, be

    Scott (45:12)

    Yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (45:25)

    be respectful and just some no one to shut up and just no one to do the thing.

    Scott (45:31)

    No one to do what needs to be done and be like, okay, this guy's not going to listen and I'm just going have to make it sound best I can because I'm not going to get in a fight with the guy. That's not the point.

    Jeremy Hayes (45:40)

    And don't be afraid to just let whoever try the thing. Maybe suggest, let's maybe change this tone a little bit. No, they don't like it. OK, cool. Let's just do it that way. then, nine times out of 10, they'll hear it back and go, hm, you know. Let them marinate on it for a bit.

    Scott (46:00)

    Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. So what's been one of your most, you we just talked about difficulties there. What was like the highlight? If you're gonna say like, dude, what a fucking great day I just had or great weekend or great evening. Like what was like that moment for you?

    Jeremy Hayes (46:19)

    Mmm Well with with the live stuff with Ottobar TV I mean the first one we did Trapped Under Ice for sure because that was like just everything was popping off on all cylinders. The fucking room was packed shoulder to shoulder, know every band just You know giving 110 % the whole way through and then taking that home and being able to mix it was just like fuck this is insane and I Was like I want to keep doing this. I want to do this forever

    Scott (46:26)

    great band.

    Yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (46:47)

    With studio stuff, I'm a huge nerd with drums. I always joke that I should have been a drummer. I play bass mostly in the bands I'm in, but I started playing guitar. I dabble in drums a little bit. I'm a hack terrible drummer, but I love playing. But most importantly, drum tones. And that's kind of what drew me to recording is, you know,

    Scott (47:07)

    I'm a drummer but I'm also just mediocre.

    Jeremy Hayes (47:13)

    When I was a kid, I listened to stuff and I didn't know how to really articulate it then, but I would listen to records just because I liked the way the drums sound. And for me, anytime you're starting a mix and the drums are just hitting right, that's everything else falls into place. Everything else falls into place.

    know, for me, anytime that drum mix is heading in the right direction, especially if you're in the room with sick move. I mean, we did the drums for that at Right Way and you could just listen to that kit in the room. And Bob, you know, has great sounding drums. He knows how to tune his kit. He knows how to play his kit well. He hits hard and you combine all that, you know, good room, good studio, good drums, tune well, good player. And it just, ugh, it's magic.

    You know, you can just stand in that room and go, this is going to be great. He is, yeah.

    Scott (48:01)

    He's a beast on the drums. He's a beast.

    He came up and played kinks and he's like, oh, I should have let you take over on drums in one song. I was like, no, no, no. I'm not gonna play one of your songs without practicing them. Absolutely not. No. You're way too good of a drummer for you to just sit down and like copy what you're doing.

    Jeremy Hayes (48:10)

    He's a badass,

    yeah. He's fast. He's

    a madman. Yeah. I would be gassed halfway through one of those songs.

    Scott (48:26)

    Yeah, I mean, well, when I was in the overprivileged, we did about 30 songs in 30 minutes. So I tend to be a fast player, but I also got rid of my rack tom and it was just, you know, floor tom bass drum snare. It was really just like, you know, keeping it basic. There were fills, but like, you know, was like the Ramones didn't have fill. So it was like, if the Ramones were on crack and like a grind core band, like, yeah, it was, it was great. I loved it.

    Jeremy Hayes (48:31)

    Nice.

    Scott (48:57)

    But I wouldn't say that it's the most technical thing people have ever done in their lives.

    Jeremy Hayes (49:02)

    as long as you're having fun. Technicality isn't everything, you know, as long as there's feeling and soul and the audience can see that, they can hear that, that's why we do it.

    Scott (49:04)

    That's the main point.

    And I think that's an accurate description. My younger brother has seen like half dozen bands I've been in. And he's like, you've been in much more technical bands and you've been in bands that are better songwriters than the overprivileged. But the overprivileged was like, I was in my twenties but with my two best friends since I was 16. And he's like, the camaraderie and the joy you three had on stage, it was so obvious that you were just so happy to hang out with each other that you weren't even aware that there was anyone else in the room besides the three of you.

    Jeremy Hayes (49:35)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah, people see that.

    Scott (49:43)

    It was so clear that you got up on stage and as far as you were concerned you were just playing in the bedroom and having a fucking blast and had no concern for what anyone else thought. I was like, yeah. Yeah, that was the good shit.

    Jeremy Hayes (49:43)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah, that's lightning in the vinyl. That's what you want. You know, the chemistry on

    stage, it definitely shows and the audience picks up on that. You know, I don't want to watch a band. I mean, we've all seen like, you know, you go see a band that you like for the first time and they look awkward on stage and it just, throws the vibe off. know, that, you know, aesthetics aren't everything, but it definitely...

    Scott (50:03)

    That is.

    Yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (50:19)

    It all adds up, right? You know, I think a good band, like a good example would be like the Hives. You know, you go and see them and it's kind of a total package. Their stage antics and the way that they dress and everything is just, it's a lot of fun. You know, it really seals the deal and, you know, it makes you want to go see them live.

    Scott (50:42)

    Yeah, you're like, this is it. This is I want to do. You know, there are bands where I see them live and I love them and then I buy their record or I listen and it's like, oh, that's fine. But I will always still go to see them live. But then there are bands where I listen to their stuff and then I go see them live and they suck, I stop listening to their stuff. Like I have no problem seeing a live band who I enjoy live but without listening to their stuff at home. But I won't listen to stuff at home if I think they suck ass live. Once I've seen them live and they suck, I was like, well, I...

    Jeremy Hayes (51:11)

    Yes

    Scott (51:12)

    I don't know, I just can't anymore. like, now you've lost me.

    Jeremy Hayes (51:17)

    Yeah, that's a tough one, right? there's definitely one of my favorite bands is a little rough around the edges live. And it hasn't stopped me from listening to their records, but it's always in the back of your head like, damn, how are these vocals so good on this record and then live? It's like, what are you doing?

    Scott (51:37)

    And then

    live, there was a very popular punk band, which I'm not gonna denigrate them on the podcast, that everybody loves. And I've tried to love them. I love many, many of their records. And the first time I saw them, I was like, well, you know what? They came on after the dwarves. That's why they didn't bring it, because I was so pumped after the dwarves that they just failed to do it. And then I saw them again, I was like, huh.

    Jeremy Hayes (51:43)

    We're not here to talk shit. Do that off- Do that off the air.

    Scott (52:04)

    Okay, well, that's it. I'm done. was like, no, no, go see them with the casualties. You hate the casualties. And so you're going to love them. And I went and I was like, I hate to say this, the casualties put on a better show. I don't even know what to say. I was like, I was just like, I can't. And I feel so bad because they were so beloved by so many people. And I'm like, I don't get it. I'm bored.

    Jeremy Hayes (52:31)

    That's why there's many bands out there, because it's not all going to appeal to everyone. Many options. Yeah, it's all good.

    Scott (52:31)

    Yes.

    There are many bands out there. We don't all like every band. It's okay.

    I mean there are a handful of bands where I put out their records, where I'm like their live record is better than their studio record by far. Where I was like, just, just, they're a live band. Like I would say like when I was a kid.

    Jeremy Hayes (52:51)

    Yeah

    I'm finding now where,

    with some of the live stuff, you know, if it's a band I'm not super familiar with, you know, I'll spend a bunch of time mixing the set, and I've become very familiar with, their live set, and then I'll hear their stuff on Spotify later, or they'll pop up on my feed, and I'm like, the studio stuff will sound so bizarre to me. I'm like, man, I like the live version better, you know?

    Scott (53:20)

    Yes.

    Exactly. I was 15 years old or so and my parents had bought me a Suicidal Tendencies record I already have and I went to Kemp Mill Music and said I need to turn this in. I already have this. My parents got it for Christmas and I already had it. They go, you should take this Circle Jerks album. I was like Circle Jerks? Okay. What is this? Like it's punk rock. was like, I don't know, Metalhead, but I'll put it in. And it was a Gig It was their live album. And it blew me the fuck away. I loved it. And...

    Jeremy Hayes (53:35)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (53:50)

    Other than their first album, Group Sex, I would say Gig is better than every album they've ever done. Like, I will put in VI or Wonderful or anything like that. I'm like, and the same songs that are on those CDs or on those albums that are on Gig, just pale in comparison. Just pale. And I was like, yeah. Yeah.

    Jeremy Hayes (54:10)

    When you find a good live recording like that, that speaks to you, you

    know, you know that that was in the moment. That's real. There's no I mean, you can still do some trickery with live recordings, but less so that, you know, it feels more real and more authentic and in the moment. Yeah.

    Scott (54:24)

    But less so, it's, the energy is there. Yeah.

    And I thought back to like, you when I, I got into punk rock, you know, I quickly realized that like live albums were a version of like best ofs, right? Cause you're doing it live, you're to put your best sets. Like I got agnostic front live at CBGBs and I got to Exploited live at the White House. Ramones local live, best Ramones records, so much faster, so much more aggressive. It's fucking great. Everyone should love that record. If they don't,

    Jeremy Hayes (54:38)

    Sure.

    Scott (54:54)

    You're wrong. It's great.

    Jeremy Hayes (54:55)

    Unless you get

    some asshole band that wants to play their entire new record that no one's ever heard front to back. That shit's the worst.

    Scott (55:02)

    Has someone

    done that?

    Jeremy Hayes (55:06)

    Not to any recordings I've done, mean yeah bands do that shit all the time, mean what's a good example?

    I want to say like at the drive-in has done that pretty infamously where they'll just play or not at the drive-in Mars Volta, you know where it's like here's the entire unreleased record we're gonna play the whole thing front to back and then walk off stage come on no one's here for that no one's here for that

    Scott (55:21)

    There's a reason I don't listen to them.

    Okay.

    Oh, come on. People want

    to hear at least a couple songs they know.

    Jeremy Hayes (55:40)

    yeah, give them what they want. you don't have to pander to the audience completely but like damn man they- your- fans made the trek out, they bought the ticket, they spent their money, they- they decided to spend their night with you, they could do a million other things and then you're just like, I'm only gonna play my new stuff. fuck outta here.

    Scott (55:41)

    Like, when you're at that level, yeah.

    Yes.

    When you're at

    a certain level, I kind of expect to hear some songs I know. I do a show almost every week. I have five bands. Sometimes I listen to the bands a lot in between. Other times I'm like, you know what? I've listened to this band in a year. I just want to go and experience it. I don't want to worry about what songs. I don't want to learn anything to sing along to. I just want to feel in the moment. But if I'm buying a ticket to Bad Religion, I better fucking hear some Bad Religion songs I want to hear.

    Jeremy Hayes (56:01)

    Yeah!

    yeah.

    Scott (56:27)

    I'm just saying. they are a great live band. I'm sad that they're ending their run is what I've heard.

    Jeremy Hayes (56:37)

    Yeah, well, it was a good one, that's for sure. Damn.

    Scott (56:40)

    It was, it was. So I was in a Bad Religion cover band for a hot minute called Good Blasphemy. So yeah, it was good stuff. Good people.

    Jeremy Hayes (56:47)

    hell yeah. Fuck yeah, good stuff. I always appreciated

    that, even the earlier stuff, man, they always just really performed well and their recordings sounded great and their harmonies were tight. Like everything was just, it was polished without being too polished. You know, it still sounded like a punk record, but you can really tell that those guys played well, performed well. really the whole package.

    Scott (57:14)

    Yeah, it's like, you you listen to a lot of like the more popular like punk rock bands on like, you know, fat records and stuff like that. And then you see bands like, like I see Bad Cop, Bad Cop pretty often. And I'm like, they can fucking play. I know there's studio magic out there, but Bad Cop, Bad Cop can fucking play. Like, you know, that's, that's what I love. Avail to me is still probably one of my favorite, if not my favorite band of all time.

    Jeremy Hayes (57:24)

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (57:44)

    and I don't care about label they were wrong they can play they know what they're doing they it's it's never nothing but a great time

    Jeremy Hayes (57:44)

    Nice.

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, for me, Wilhelm Scream's a band like that where their stuff is just so fast and technical. You hear the records, you're like, man, are they going to pull this off live? And then you see them live and it's just, you know, they shred, they rip. It's super good. Yeah.

    Scott (58:05)

    they pull it off. Yep.

    And that's a band and I'm not super familiar but what I am familiar with their catalog, it really changes a lot in its sound over the course of several albums. Would that be fairly accurate?

    Jeremy Hayes (58:19)

    Yes and no, think, but they've always stayed, I think at the core, it's the speed and some of the technicality. You know, I think it varies a little bit. I wouldn't say it's like a night and day difference or anything.

    Scott (58:20)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    I mean, like one of my other favorite ones, like Propagandi, where, you know, pop-punk, skate punk, the first album. And now it's like, and then like the new album, where it's slower, I still love it. It's still Propagandi, it's still amazing lyrics and the songwriting is great.

    Jeremy Hayes (58:38)

    yeah. Yup.

    Mm-hmm.

    I have no problem

    when bands want to branch out and do... I generally like it, you know? If you like the old, fast, rough record, then keep listening to it. Don't listen to the new one. People get so upset about that shit.

    Scott (58:52)

    Yeah!

    It's always and you know what I found is like so much of things are exposure dependent by which I mean You know, have one of my buddies he will tell you up and down that like heavy petting zoo is the best NOFX album Like are you fucking kidding me? That's when I stopped listening to them when that album came out He's like, well, I was like 15 years old. I was like, I was like 26. So, you know time and place, right

    Jeremy Hayes (59:11)

    Sure, yeah.

    Yeah, that's definitely a time

    and place thing for sure.

    Scott (59:33)

    I mean, it's certainly like a type of like, you know, I was like, he's like, yeah, I went back and listened to your Kid Dynamite. They were pretty good. I said, pretty good. Fuck you. Kid Dynamite, pretty good.

    Jeremy Hayes (59:46)

    Yeah, it's funny how that works

    though. Just catching you at the right moment in your life to where it just all clicks. Yeah.

    Scott (59:54)

    it all clicks and

    it's like I've heard that before like of course you've heard it before because people did it after them

    Jeremy Hayes (1:00:00)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Scott (1:00:03)

    But when I heard it, it was OG.

    So yeah, it's, it's a time and place situation. So, you know, where are you in your life? What are you going through? What has been your previous exposure? You know, what are you, what are you interested in hearing? You know, I, I found that I tend to book a lot of like, with some intentionality, like BIPOC, queer and trans core bands, just cause I've heard enough of like the straight white guys like singing on stage about like being brothers and drinking beer. I'm interested in hear something different.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:00:11)

    For sure. Yeah.

    Sure. Mm-hmm. Right.

    Yeah, a little more, I don't know, constructive, contributing to, Yeah.

    Scott (1:00:40)

    I don't know, just different background experiences. like, I like to be

    pushed to think about things in a different way because I'm like, all right, I have heard that Dropkick Murphy song a thousand times. I need something new.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:00:46)

    Sure.

    I mean, we're in, we're not to get heavy into the current climate of things, but like, you know, this is, this is why we have punk rock and this is why we have loud, aggressive music is to, you know.

    Scott (1:01:03)

    Yes!

    Jeremy Hayes (1:01:10)

    educate people that maybe wouldn't normally hear the message. I mean, I can think of plenty of times where, you a song might tune you into a subject that you wouldn't normally pay any attention to. But we need this stuff right now, man. It's a crazy fucking world. It's off the rails right now.

    Scott (1:01:27)

    Yeah. I mean, that's why like my favorite

    bands were Bad Religion and like Dead Kennedys. Like they're bringing up ideas and questions I never had. And I was like, I don't even know what a Biafra is. What is a Biafra? I was like, it's a country. I didn't know that would have been a country or, you know, there are things that you have to learn.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:01:33)

    Yeah.

    I remember as

    a kid, I was a big Fear Factory fan and they had a song off of D Manufacture called "Piss Christ", was, know, growing up as a kid, you know, I didn't know what atheism was, but I knew that I didn't like religion and I thought it was all phony and a bunch of bullshit. And then I come across this song, which was the first time I heard another musician.

    Scott (1:01:49)

    Fuck yeah!

    Jeremy Hayes (1:02:13)

    acknowledge, you know, that religion is a bunch of made up, you know, stuff and it made me go, hey, you know, I'm not alone and I'm not weird thinking this and it's not wrong to think this way and yeah, hearing hearing that come from music really just like it hits.

    Scott (1:02:18)

    Yeah?

    Yeah, I mean.

    Oh, I feel like, cause I'm also, you I'm an atheist. Like, I feel like that's where Bad Religion hit me too. I was like, oh yeah, you get it. I was like, it's all a bunch of synthetic frippery. I was like, oh my God, that's, that speaks to what I've been like. I've been told I'm going to hell so often in my life. And this is like amazing to hear someone that tells me I'm not going to hell. That hell doesn't matter. And how can hell be any worse? Yeah. It was great. It was absolutely like so moving to hear music that was about more than partying.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:02:37)

    Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    Really, there's other people like me? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    Yeah. Yeah, you can, Yeah, you can enjoy that stuff, but you can also... There's a time and place, you know, maybe you wanna,

    Scott (1:03:03)

    Not that I don't love a good party song.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:03:14)

    unwind and listen to the party stuff but then, you know, there's times when shit gets real. And it's time to learn something new, maybe open your third eye, your perspective.

    Scott (1:03:27)

    So you grew up in Baltimore your whole life. What are three

    Baltimore bands that like you saw that you just loved?

    Jeremy Hayes (1:03:36)

    Mmm. Put me on the spot here. Baltimore bands.

    Scott (1:03:44)

    One of my first shows was in Baltimore. was, I think I was like 15 or 16 and I saw at the Rage, I saw Biohazard, Sheer Terror, Gridlock and Next Step Up at the Rage.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:03:53)

    Mm-hmm.

    Dude next step up. Yeah, I mean I gotta say you know fucking trap under ice man, I mean they they've been around for the long haul and You know seeing what the hardcore scene is now especially You know even just five six years ago. I mean, it's blowing up now I mean Ottobar's selling out more shows than they ever have this past year

    Scott (1:04:01)

    Yeah, right?

    Jeremy Hayes (1:04:28)

    It's it's crazy to see it's cliche, but I'm gonna say Jimmie's Chicken Shack, which I guess technically they're more Annapolis, but Yeah, I got to throw them in there it as a young kid Getting into the music scene in this area for the first time seeing them was definitely Yeah

    Scott (1:04:34)

    I love Jimmy's Chicken Shack. They used to play the HFS festival all the time.

    Yeah, yeah dude. My wife would approve.

    She's from Annapolis, so like she was born and bred in the Maryland area,

    Jeremy Hayes (1:04:57)

    And a third one. Um, man.

    Scott (1:05:00)

    Good Charlotte

    Jeremy Hayes (1:05:03)

    I had one of my old bands that has opened up for them and You know, they're not I have no issue with pop-punk For the record. I've played in pop-punk bands, but they've never been my particular cup of tea But they're always nice to us. So we'll see that

    Scott (1:05:13)

    No, no, no, no, not at all. I like Pop-Punk.

    The one dude's on the

    tattoo show now, like, Ickmaster. He's a judge on Inkmaster the one twin. Yes.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:05:25)

    yeah, I do remember

    that. Yeah, after, I guess, would Dave Navarro leave and he replaced him or something like that?

    Scott (1:05:31)

    Yeah, David Navarro left. I'm not sure like,

    you know, that's not an equal trade off in my mind, but it's fine. He's a nice enough guy, it seems.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:05:41)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:05:43)

    I mean, if I could have been in a pop-punk band at that age and played to crowds like that, I'd have done it in a heartbeat. So anyone that says, yeah, why not?

    Jeremy Hayes (1:05:50)

    yeah, it's fun. Yeah,

    yeah, the whole like newfound glory and, you know, the earlier stuff and that love, it's just fun. It's just fun stuff to like disconnect to and yeah.

    Scott (1:05:59)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, it's fun. It's nothing I've ever played, but I would. Yeah.

    No, I mean, I did play in a band called The Abducted that kind of sounded like the queers and screaching weasel. That was my closest to like pop-punk. Yeah, I was like one of like seven drummers.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:06:11)

    But,

    The Abducted, I like that name. That's a cool name.

    are you, what's, what's the, what's the, what's behind that name? The abducted, where did, where did that come from? I'm thinking aliens, but just, just a cool name.

    Scott (1:06:30)

    I don't know. keep abducting. mean, they cover the album.

    The one CD they had had the aliens on it. And on that CD is like Eric actually went on a drum and strike anywhere. Then I was a drummer after that. And then I recorded some songs and then they asked me to leave the band politely-ish. And then they got another drummer who finished the album. Yeah. I really just gave the band practice in my basement and carried everything back out and said, yeah, we're not, you're not in the band anymore. was like, okay.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:06:38)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Politely-ish.

    Scott (1:07:01)

    It was fine. We moved past it. Even though they put out the record without like my name on the on the tracks that I played on it's fine. It's fine. I mean I went to two of their weddings later, so it's all good.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:07:01)

    You

    Didn't cause a ruckus at the wedding. That'd the time to bring up drama,

    Scott (1:07:18)

    No, no, no ruckus at the wedding. No ruckus. But then

    I ran into like Eric from Strike Anywhere and we were at the fest like two years ago. I was talking to the singer of No Man. And I mentioned like, oh, I'm from the DC area. She's like, I was like, yeah, you know, I'm friends with like, you know, know, old bands like the Goons, yada yada. I used to play in the abducted and the guy next to like, you didn't play in the abducted. I played in the abducted. like, no, I did. I was like, the second drumming was like, you're my missing link. I was like, what is like.

    I've been collecting abducted drummers. I need to take a photo of you. You're the last one I needed. was like there was like seven or eight of you. I was like, I needed to collect them all.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:07:57)

    I love that.

    Scott (1:07:58)

    Cause they went through drummers like there

    was nobody's business. I was like, yeah, they struggled.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:08:04)

    That happens,

    Scott (1:08:06)

    Yeah. You know, it's, it's gotta be the right fit. Not only just musically, but also people wise. And sometimes it just doesn't work.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:08:13)

    Yeah, I mean, it's back

    to what you were saying and you got to have that chemistry. Everybody's got to click.

    Scott (1:08:18)

    Yeah, it's hard to force it to I've tried to force it before and it's like it's just not fun

    Jeremy Hayes (1:08:19)

    Sometimes it's tough but-

    Mm-hmm. I mean, it should be fun, right? I sometimes it is hard work and it does feel like work. I think that's natural in a normal thing, but if you have personalities that are fighting you along the way, man, it just sucks. That's when it's time to get out.

    Scott (1:08:41)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, it's like, oh, okay. I just finished a two hour practice that I drove 45 minutes for and at the end of it, I'm depressed and down and I just want to go home. I'm not enjoying the music. I have to be done with this.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:08:50)

    Yeah, it's exhausting. Mm-hmm.

    I've been fortunate that the bands I've played in, we've all, I think for the most part, been friends previously before getting together, or least knew each other pretty well. But I've had some pretty good experience over the years with not having crazy band drama. Thankfully, lucky.

    Scott (1:09:16)

    I I turned 15 April

    and I would say most of my bands have been positive. Most. It's just been a little bit hard here and there. You know, because everybody wants you because you're a drummer. So, yeah, it's like, but you know, I also, you know, I don't play metal drums. I don't do double bass. Like there's just, I don't, I'm 50 years old. I don't want to learn anything new. I just want to play and have fun.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:09:28)

    Mm-hmm.

    getting

    You just want to have fun. Not work too hard. Sure.

    Scott (1:09:45)

    I just want to have fun. I want to have fun. If you want to go on the road, I'll go on the road. I'll book us a three week tour tomorrow,

    but we're going to do it my style. I'm too old to change. Sorry.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:09:52)

    Hahaha

    I hear ya.

    Scott (1:09:57)

    If you want me to throw some jazz in there, it's just not going to happen. I'm sorry. I'm just not going to do it. I'm not going to sit at home and practice it.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:10:07)

    He's got time for all that. I will say it is, with modern technology practices, it is a little bit better because you can work on stuff at home. know, my bands, you know, we always try and use practice in the room with the whole band as our time to kind of perfect the set or write. But like the whole idea of just getting, for me at least, getting in the room to just jam with a bunch of musicians is a fucking nightmare.

    to Like I have no interest in that. Like I want to come in with a plan. This is what we need to do either. This is what we need to write. This is what we're rehearsing. Get in, get out, be efficient with your time. But like, you know, I'm, I'm going to iron the parts out at home before I come to practice. If you're the guy that's at practice, like in the middle of, you know, band practice, relearning a song, like, dude, do that shit at home and do your homework, man.

    Scott (1:11:01)

    Yeah.

    I mean, I have electronic kits so I can practice at home if I need to, you know, uh, there's a band I manage called WORLDSUCKS use some sort of program because the bass player was in Canada, guitarist is in Jersey and the, uh, the drummers in Catskills and they use some sort of program that allows them to like, you know, share and practice with each other. Definitely like the bass player and guitarists, like they write together. I forget the name of it. They mentioned it in our Slack chat the other day.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:11:05)

    Yeah, yeah.

    I do like a program drums or something like that. Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:11:31)

    And,

    but like, I like the band practice, but I'm also like old school guys. Like I wouldn't have a band practice. And then after band practice, I want to hang out and I want to shoot the shit for an hour afterwards. I wanted to be more than being in a band. I want the camaraderie. I want to feel like we're hanging out and we're buds. If I'm just playing to play and we're not friends.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:11:41)

    Sure, yeah, yeah,

    Got it, yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:11:57)

    That's fine, but like I want camaraderie. I I'm sorry Music without friendship is just not music to me for me. I can't do it

    Jeremy Hayes (1:12:02)

    Sure.

    Some people, I think, like that transactional nature, but yeah, you gotta have a...

    Scott (1:12:13)

    I get it, and I mean

    no disrespect to anyone that does, it's just not me.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:12:16)

    Yeah,

    yeah, we're not, I'm not like a Nashville session musician. I'm here to, enjoy the time and, you know, hang out with friends and hopefully make some good songs and good music.

    Scott (1:12:25)

    Yeah.

    Do you ever record your own stuff or do you have someone else do it?

    Jeremy Hayes (1:12:33)

    yeah,

    all the time. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what got me into recording. I started playing first. My first serious band, we went to record and, you know, at the time all we could afford was, you know, a buddy, a friend of a friend that had a recording set up in their basement and we went and recorded and, you know, less than stellar time. But it cost us next to nothing. So can't complain too much. But I'm looking around while we're doing this and I'm going

    I could probably do this myself and do a better job. this was way back, so I still living at home and talked to my dad and he's a very handy guy and he's also into music. And I said, let's build a studio. we built a studio in the basement and got to it. And that's kind of where it started. I said, I want to be able to do this on my own, on my own time. I don't have a fortune to spend on recording.

    So I'm gonna do it myself and that's kind of where it started. Just trying to record my own band and my friends bands at first and then of course it you know developed into more and more over the years. But yeah pretty much every band I've been in yeah I end up recording everything.

    Scott (1:13:51)

    All right, rad Well, I don't want to take up too much more of your time. We've been at it for over an hour. I try and keep these brief and beautiful. I could chat with you all night long, I gotta tell you.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:13:57)

    This has been great. Yeah, I appreciate it.

    Scott (1:14:02)

    if people want to reach out to you to mix and master their stuff, where can they reach out to you?

    Jeremy Hayes (1:14:06)

    Sure, my website, it's just my name, jeremy-hays.com. You can also find me on Instagram at bungler, B-U-N-G-L-E-R. Don't ask about the name, it's just an old handle. I thought the word was funny and I've stuck with it for like 12 years now. But bungler on Instagram or jeremy-hays.com. DM me, that's fine, email me, whatever you prefer. And I always try and get back pretty quick.

    affordable rates. So if you're an indie band looking to get a single or a record or you want some live recording or mastering, hit me up. Happy to help.

    Scott (1:14:45)

    And I'm gonna drop all that stuff in the description of the episode whether you're streaming it or you're watching this on YouTube Whatever it is, it's gonna be there Also, you know, please check out dcxpclive.com check out our Instagram. You should check out sick moves recorded mixed and mastered by Jeremy I've only got like 15 copies of that left. So you should check it out because it's fucking dope I mean, that's really good that I wouldn't put that out. Like what didn't I put it out like six months ago and

    Jeremy Hayes (1:14:47)

    Cool. Appreciate you. Yeah.

    That's a good one. Yeah.

    Yeah, and then you got Supreme

    Commander on the way too, Yeah.

    Scott (1:15:14)

    I got Supreme Commander

    I don't know what's going on with Supreme Commander. I haven't heard hide nor hair them for a while, but I kind of like let bands. Yeah, I can't wait to hear it because I love that band. I have loved that band for, going on 15 years now. So, I am super stoked to release that. So, and I can't wait to work with you some more. And I can't thank you enough for being on this episode. It has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you, Jeremy.

    Jeremy Hayes (1:15:20)

    They seem to be busy, but yeah, it's cool.

    Yeah, that mix came out really good. It's dope. Yeah.

    Absolutely. Thank you.

    Oh yeah, I'm glad you had me on. It was awesome talking to you and I appreciate it. Here's to more. Yeah.

    Scott (1:15:49)

    Appreciate it. Thank you.

    Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for watching. please, like I said, check everything out. Go to the website, check his stuff out, check my stuff out, subscribe, yada yada, do all the things that you're supposed to do that they say at the end of podcasts. You know what it is. Much love.

  • Episode 28: put.over.photo

    Scott (00:18)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we’re here to give credit where it’s long overdue.

    I’m your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label documenting live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal through short-run vinyl releases. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I’ve learned that scenes don’t survive on music alone. They survive because people build infrastructure, take care of each other, and imagine something bigger than a show flyer or a lineup.

    Today we are meeting with one of those people who helps support the scene through his amazing photography, as well as his kindness and general awesomeness. I’ve known Aaron Stoquert for about a year or so from his band, The Snorts, before he came to me and asked to take photos of Rally in the Valley Vol. 1.

    I quickly learned that he had once regularly taken photos of wrestling matches and that he was now looking to dig deep on live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows. My answer was an easy yes. And to say that his photos were dope, and have only gotten better with each show, would be an understatement.

    Aaron travels throughout New York and to various festivals, taking live shots of bands that demonstrate why live music is as much visual as it is auditory. And while his work has seemed to trend toward live shots, he’s also been delving into taking posed and candid photos off the stage.

    So let’s dig in and find out what has driven Aaron to put in the time and miles to support the scene the only way a skilled photographer can. What’s going on, Aaron?

    Aaron (01:46)

    What’s going on, Scott? What a lovely intro. Thank you. Thank you for that.

    Scott (01:50)

    You’re welcome. So I love you and your Put.Over.Photo. I love that your image is pink, like your Put.Over.Photo sticker.

    Aaron (01:55)

    Yeah, I figured that we just have to keep it consistent, right?

    Scott (02:00)

    Your sticker, I meant. Although I had to make your image bigger because it was small, and it reminded me too much of your sticker because it was so small.

    Aaron (02:08)

    So that is what’s called an inside joke. Scott consistently gives me shit for my little stickers that I pass out at shows and wherever else to link to my Instagram. He’s like, “These are way too small. You need stickers like mine, huge massive stickers that could power a sailboat on the Pacific Ocean.”

    He’s like, “You need them this big so people can see them.” I don’t know. I happen to think the pocket-size sticker fits anywhere you want to put it, which is great.

    Scott (02:49)

    I mean, they are technically bigger than a button. And people do wear buttons.

    Aaron (02:52)

    Sure. I think you’re trying to innovate a “sticker as blanket” type of situation. If we could just wrap ourselves in the sticker, maybe that’s the size we want to go for. I think you might be on to something there.

    Scott (03:11)

    I mean, do you prefer your photographs small or big?

    Aaron (03:13)

    Depends on the photo.

    Scott (03:16)

    Okay. All right, so let’s start. I want to get into musical journeys first. Why don’t we start with your musical journey, if you don’t mind? Obviously, you’re in the punk scene here, but I think your musical interests might be broader than that as well. So why don’t you delve into who you are as a musical person before we get into how your photography connects to that?

    Aaron (03:39)

    Just my love of music in general?

    Scott (03:43)

    Anything. You can start at the beginning, like what you listened to in utero. You can talk about the high school years that everybody loves to lament. You can talk about last week. I don’t really care. Just talk about your musical soul at whatever stage you wish to do so.

    Aaron (03:52)

    Sure. I come from a musical family. My dad was a drummer in a nine-piece funk band in central New York for many years. He’s still alive, but he was a drummer for a long time.

    Growing up, I did not get, “Here’s The White Album. Here’s Rubber Soul.” It was more like, “Here’s a drum video by Dennis Chambers and Steve Weckl. Here’s how you do paradiddles. Here’s what improvisation is for a drummer and what that means.”

    So we grew up watching these VHS tapes of drum instructor videos, me and my brothers and sister. My dad had a drum set in the house, in the garage or in the basement, set up all the time. There was always the question of how much we could get away with playing this kit until someone told us to stop.

    When I was about 15, I got a guitar from a friend who was getting rid of it. He didn’t want it. I started playing that, and the blues were something I was really fascinated with. I was like, “You can do that? You can just wail away on a guitar like that? You don’t have to sing?”

    So I got really interested in that. That’s when I started playing guitar. Then my little brother, when he was like seven or eight, started messing around with my dad’s drum kit. My dad had an electric drum kit that he never plugged in. He used it as a practice pad, so my little brother would start playing on that when he was really young. I’d get out there with my new guitar and my shitty guitar skills, and we would just sound like clicky-clacky terrible noise all over the place. But we couldn’t get enough of it.

    I joined bands in high school and joined bands all over the place. I tried to play music as much as possible. I did a solo thing where I played what I called southern gothic folk songs that were mainly about zombies. It was me playing solo acoustic stuff with a folk-inspired type of thing.

    Scott (06:19)

    Do you have any of that stuff recorded?

    Aaron (06:19)

    You can find it under my name. It’s out there. There are some things out there. I still think it’s cool.

    Then someone finally introduced me to the Beatles and all the songwriter music and punk and all that type of stuff. I went from there and still can’t get enough of it. Last year, Scott, I don’t know how many bands we saw, but it was a lot.

    Scott (06:51)

    We saw a lot of bands last year.

    Aaron (06:54)

    Every night when I would come back, or if we came back from a festival, it wasn’t like, “Man, I’m whipped.” It was like, “When is the next one? Let’s go.”

    Scott (07:05)

    You are a machine. When we were at RPM Fest and I was passing out snoring, luckily you’re not sleeping because you couldn’t. You’re up until like 2 a.m. still plowing away.

    I did 35 or 36 shows this year, and I can only think of one show that you missed because you had to go out of town or something like that. You went to almost every festival I went to. We were basically almost connected at the hip. It’s actually been quite a pleasure having you. I just kind of count on you being there now. It’s like, Aaron’s just supposed to be there.

    Aaron (07:46)

    It’s been a blast. I’ve talked with other photographers like Dave from Face Photo and Luis from LunaticPic about this. I don’t know what it is. I mean, someone knows what it is. It’s adrenaline. That’s what it is. It’s adrenaline that you’re feeding off of.

    There’s just something about coming back from a show at Snappers, or especially RPM Fest. We rolled into my driveway at like 1:45 in the morning or something like that, and my fiancée was like, “Hey, what’s going on?” I was like, “Oh, this was the best day we’ve ever had.”

    It was like, “This guy won’t come hang out.” And you’re like, “I gotta go home, dude. We just spent three days together.”

    I don’t know. It’s the anticipation of seeing what you got as a photographer, but in a bigger, less egocentric answer, it’s more like, “Hey everybody, look at what just happened. This was a really cool thing.” If you weren’t able to get out to it, we want to make sure that you feel 10 or 15 percent of the energy that was in the room.

    If it’s a Snapper’s show, it would be, “Hey man, it felt like there were 1,500 people at the bar and it was awesome.” That’s where it is.

    Scott (09:12)

    When you say things like that, it echoes the reason I do live albums. I want that moment and that energy to matter. As I hear you saying that, it makes me almost regret the fact that I followed the VML aesthetic and did very basic covers instead of getting a great photographer to take amazing live photos to make sure that the music matched the visual. But that’s neither here nor there.

    As you were talking, I had so many thoughts. One of the thoughts was that you’re so locked in. I go to a lot of shows too, and I will not deny that every now and then my attention might wander. I might have to deal with something because I’m running the show or need to talk to someone.

    But do you think being a photographer makes you pay attention more? And because you’re paying attention more, are you enjoying it more than almost anyone else? Because you are locked in. You’re not getting distracted. You’re not looking at your phone to see what time it is or if anyone texted. You’re not looking to go to the bathroom or get another drink. You’re just locked in.

    Aaron (10:16)

    Yeah, I think it’s twofold. I am insatiably fascinated with music, full stop. So there’s that part of it that locks in. When a band hits the stage, it’s like, okay, what are you going to sound like? And not from a judgy, “What are you going to sound like?” place. It’s more like curiosity.

    Scott (10:39)

    Like, I cannot wait to hear what this sounds like.

    Aaron (10:41)

    Right. My favorite ones are when bands are huge and massive, and you’re like, “How many people are in this band?” And then the other side is the complete opposite, where it’s two or three people, and you’re like, “Okay, interesting. Here we go.”

    You’re not painting with a whole lot of colors here, at least initially from not hearing a single note. I think of Shark Noises like that. Shark Noises hit the stage, and you’re like, damn, that is not at all what I was expecting, and it rips. It’s awesome.

    So that side of it is locked in, where there’s a musical piece to it. The photography side of it is me trying to go, “Okay, so I’ve heard the first song that you’re playing. How do I capture what energy you’re putting out with an image?”

    Usually during the first song, if I haven’t seen the band before, I try to watch and see who is putting the show on. Who is playing to the crowd? And if there isn’t anybody in particular who’s playing to the crowd, who is the heartbeat of what’s on stage right now?

    I’m trying hard to figure out where the band is getting their cues from. Being in a band myself, there are one or two people who are driving the energy off the stage. I’m looking for who that person is.

    Subsequently, I’m looking for the person who is like, “I don’t want to be on stage. I’m terrified, but I’m here.” And how do I capture that person in a way that is honest but also cool? Everybody wants cool photos. Whatever anxiety you might be feeling, you don’t necessarily want that to come through in the photo.

    There are a bunch of things that keep me fascinated while someone’s on stage. By the time the set’s over, I’m like, “Cool. I’m going to go sit down for 15 minutes, and then we’re going on to the next one.” And it’s totally different, which is great.

    Scott (13:04)

    And it doesn’t exhaust you? Locking in with that level of focus would cause some people to get tired.

    Aaron (13:10)

    Oh yeah, I get tired. Let’s be very clear about that. But when you’re tired and you’re doing something that doesn’t hold your complete attention, we’ve all been there. Like, I’m going to rake the lawn. I’m not fascinated by this, but I have to do it. I mean, you don’t have to, but you probably should.

    Scott (13:36)

    So it has to be done, and I’m going to do it.

    Aaron (13:37)

    Right. At that point, there’s going to be a moment where you’re like, “You know what? I’m done.”

    With photography, especially music photography, there’s not really a moment where I’m like, “You know what? I’m done.” It’s more like, “All right, cool. Let’s keep it coming.” I feel like I would like to capture something really cool. If you all are going to put a show on, let’s rock and roll with it and go.

    Scott (14:06)

    It definitely answers my question. I have so many questions coming up. It’s like I should be taking notes.

    One thing I posted was the announcement for Rally in the Valley coming up, and I went through pictures of last year’s. I found your pictures, and I found some great ones that you had done. That was the first show pictures of yours I’d ever seen, other than ones you might have done prior.

    I feel like your photography has transitioned a lot. There are a lot more effects you’re doing. I don’t know if that’s the right phrase for it, with the lights and angles. How has your photo shooting changed? It’s not even a year since you started or restarted taking pictures. Is it fair to say you restarted taking pictures around the time of the Rally?

    Aaron (14:57)

    Yeah, it is fair to say that. I started taking photos in 2018. I’ve been taking photos, not professionally, my whole life. I got a camera when I was like 16 or something, and I have pictures of me doing what you’ve seen me do at shows, but around my house to my parents and my brother. I’d just go up and stick a camera in their face, and they’d be like, “What’s going on?” Those images were on film.

    Music and photography have always been the two things that I really latched onto. Every time I do something with photography, I’m like, “Right, this is another passion of mine.” There was a point where I almost quit music and did photography full stop before my band started. There was almost no band that happened.

    Rally in the Valley last year was the first time I picked up a camera and did something at an event in a number of years. Part of that was being burnt out from the last time I was doing photos. I was taking professional wrestling photos, doing ringside stuff.

    I wasn’t mentally prepared for the commitment of, “Can we get those photos? Can you edit them?” I didn’t have a process. I was just winging it. Eventually it got to a point where it burned me out. So I took a break and really focused on music.

    When Rally in the Valley came up last year, it was like, “You know what? I feel like I could do this again. I feel like I’m more mentally equipped to compartmentalize and get a process in place that doesn’t suck up my entire life,” even though it may seem like that from the outside, where people are like, “Do you sleep at all?”

    I do. So I think it is important to highlight that it’s okay to take a break. You don’t have to always be doing something. I feel like, especially with social media and the Spotify-ification of music, there’s this idea that you have to be doing something all the time, every day, every hour, every minute. If you’re not doing something, you suck. Stop. It’s okay to take a breather for a second, or a couple of years, or whatever it is, to get your mind right.

    A friend of mine always refers to it as recharging those creative batteries. If you’re burnt out on music, maybe take some photos. If you’re burnt out on music and photos, play some video games, read a book, do something that is different from what you’ve been doing.

    So yes, long-winded answer to say Rally in the Valley was the first time in a number of years that I picked up the camera. I got home and said to my fiancée, “We’ve got a problem. I am locked way in on this. I just told Scott I’d be at every one of his shows.”

    Scott (18:29)

    And then she’s like, well, up to that point, Scott had done maybe 12 shows the year before and was doing a monthly show. Maybe it’ll be a couple of shows. And you had no idea from that point on that I’d have like eight shows in June.

    Aaron (18:49)

    It’s all right. It’s a privilege. It’s something we can’t take for granted. The idea that you can go into a public space and there’s loud music, creative people, and art happening, we can’t take that for granted because it’s not guaranteed.

    When there are eight shows in June, it’s like, “Jesus Christ, how many more shows are you going to book, bro?” But every single one of them is a blast.

    Scott (19:23)

    I appreciate that. So back to the transition. That was April. We’re in January. So that’s like nine months. I don’t have the aesthetic vocabulary to describe it, but I immediately saw the difference. It didn’t mean that the Rally photos were worse. They were just stylistically different. So how has your style changed, and where do you see it going?

    Aaron (20:01)

    There definitely is an evolution to it. It comes down to what I was talking about earlier, with the energy coming off the stage and trying to match that energy.

    Coming back to the Rally last year, I came with a professional wrestling eye and said, “This is how I shot professional wrestling. Let me see if that translates over to punk and what you’re doing with DCxPC.” I think it did. I’m proud of those photos. I like those photos.

    But it’s always incremental. How can we do it just a little bit better? How can we get to a place where there’s a shot in my mind that I try to see before each show?

    I’m thinking of Carbomb Parade. I know Nicky’s going to lose his mind and go all over the place. In my head going into that show, it was, “How can I capture the essence of his frontman style?” I had a few shots in mind where if I could get something like this, or something like this, I’d be happy. That’s what you’re chasing. It’s really a chase in my mind.

    In the grand scheme of things, the energy was there last April. I liked what I was getting as far as framing goes. However, there seemed to be a little something else that I felt like we could bring out of it.

    For the photography nerds, I wanted to do a little bit more shutter drag. Some people ask, “How do you get the lights in there?” Some people think I go into Photoshop and scribble over the photos. I don’t do that. It’s all in camera. But it’s also not a technique I invented. It’s been around forever, and it was especially popular in the early ’90s hardcore scene, where there was a lot of this ghosting type effect.

    Once I started saying, “Okay, I wonder if I could convey some kind of energy that way,” I started trying a few things. It goes back to starting a show with an idea in your mind or an image you want to capture. I wanted to get a really cool shutter drag image from one band and see where we were at. Then you explore that more.

    “All right, that was cool. What can I do if I change the lens and use more of a fisheye instead of a wider, flatter lens?” Then you start landing on other things, like looking at shapes people make when they’re on stage.

    I’m thinking of an image from Escape Rope where the guitar player was bent over looking at his pedal board. I used shutter drag to paint with light and wrap him in the light from his pedal board. It made this really cool outline while his head was bent down. I was like, that’s a really cool shape I’m going for.

    So yes, it’s constantly evolving. At the later shows you did in 2025, I started bringing in an 85 millimeter lens and getting really up close while being really far back. That does something to the images as well. It compresses it. So if the light for the lead singer is behind them, can I get a really cool silhouette from far back while also being tight on the face? There were a few images like that. It’s little changes here and there and trying not to be complacent.

    Scott (24:22)

    Fascinating. Do you plan before you go? If you haven’t seen bands, do you watch videos or listen to their music to get an idea? Or do you just come in flat-footed, figuring you’re going to respond to the moment and whatever new thing you’re trying? What’s your process when you’re going to a show?

    Aaron (24:57)

    It’s rare that I’ll look up videos of a band. I want to be surprised. I want that spontaneity. At a show like Snappers, Ruckus, or Night Swim, I want that spontaneity and I want to be able to run around and follow folks.

    The only time I’m really going to look up a band is if it’s a band like Ghoul or Gwar, where there are costumes and a performance. I want to see what that looks like. But I also still want to be surprised.

    That’s a little different. At RPM, when Ghoul played, I knew there was going to be a lot of blood, costume changes, and all that stuff. So I knew I wanted to be in the front row for the first four or five songs, then get some side-stage shots, get some behind-the-scenes, and do that.

    Festivals are more planned than the shows at Snappers, Ruckus, and Night Swim. For festivals, I’m looking for cinematic scenes, big vista-esque imagery, almost putting a musician up on this grandiose stage even more than they already are.

    The smaller venue shows are more like, can I make the image feel like you’re standing this far away from Nicky from Carbomb Parade while he’s pouring a beer on your head? That’s the difference between the two.

    Scott (26:55)

    How does it affect you to see the same band? You mentioned spontaneity, and there are some bands like Nicky from Carbomb Parade where even though you know he’s going to be energetic, it’s not inherently the same every time. I’d say RBNX is one of those bands too. How do you prevent yourself from getting bored or not excited to take more photos when you’ve already seen them three or four times?

    Aaron (27:36)

    Every performance is different. Even if a band tries to be as consistent as possible, there’s going to be something that’s different.

    I shot Negative Raxxx two days in a row. It was the same set, same group of people, same lineup. But on the second day, there was a moment. That’s what you start looking for. You go, “Okay, cool, I saw this set last night. Tonight, we’re going to see it again. Now I’m going to look for moments I didn’t get the night before.”

    One of them was Zoots having a moment to himself. He was crouched down, head down.

    Scott (28:31)

    Yeah, such a great fucking picture.

    Aaron (28:34)

    That picture almost didn’t happen because I saw Zoots doing that. It was between songs, and I was standing up. I wasn’t even crouched next to him. I was standing next to him and thought, “That’s a reflective moment.” Then the thing in my brain kicked on. “You are a photographer. You have a camera.” So I took the photo.

    It would be like asking, “Aren’t you sick of the chords available to you when you’re playing guitar?” No, I’m not.

    Scott (29:12)

    No, I get it. I wasn’t trying to be negative. I was trying to get a grasp of it. I see the same bands all the time because I love them, but I feel like I’m enjoying them as much as you are while not thinking as hard as you are. I’m just letting it wash over me more.

    Aaron (29:40)

    And that’s totally fine. You asked if I ever get tired. Yeah, it’s exhausting because your shows are like 14 hours long. It’s another DCxPC show. What is this, 10 bands tonight? Great. We’ll see you there.

    Scott (29:56)

    Such an asshole. Let’s be clear. My shows start on time. They tend to end on time. Those Snapper’s shows are actually only about five hours long.

    Aaron (30:05)

    They do. I’m kidding around. We have a great time with the shows you book, and we are thankful for the shows you book and the scene that’s here.

    When you’re just there for the music and the show, let the shit wash over you. But think about the last time you were really looking at something and trying to find moments in something. It’s observing something intensely in half-hour bursts.

    That’s why I go to the Chinese spot next door and get some fried rice in between if it’s a long show. I need to get the energy back up and go from there. But I wouldn’t be doing all that if it wasn’t absolutely fascinating and something I love to do.

    It’s great when you book mixed bills, because it’s like, “Great, here are four horn people coming into this band.” The band before was a doom metal band. It keeps it nice.

    Scott (31:20)

    I appreciate that. I appreciate how Jaelyn was like, “I need to hire a photographer.” And I was like, “I mean, you can, but I’m pretty sure my photographer will be there. Although I’m sure he’ll take your money if you offer it.”

    Aaron (31:36)

    That’s right. For those who don’t know, I try to provide 15 to 20 photos free of charge for bands that I photograph, especially for shows you book. I feel like you can’t charge for everything. You certainly can, but I want to give back to the scene. I want to give back to the community and to the people who have been gracious in welcoming me, this guy coming in and shoving cameras in people’s faces.

    So I try to support the scene that way. If you want to buy the full set, the full album at full resolution, come on through. I’m happy to do that. But it’s not a requirement.

    Scott (32:31)

    Or just buy a couple photos like my wife did for my Christmas presents. Thank you, by the way. Those are fabulous. Now I have to go out and buy a lot of expensive frames.

    Aaron (32:35)

    You’re welcome. But I don’t want people to think I’m there only for a money-making situation. It’s certainly nice and helpful, especially if you’re driving all over the place, and camera gear is an expensive hobby. But I’m not putting that on anybody else. I want to capture what is happening.

    Scott (33:07)

    As a promoter and a showgoer, it is so nice to have photos. I’ve been doing this a hot minute, and I had one or two people in DC who would come out to shows here and there. There was a guy in Orlando, Jim Leatherman, who was great, but he only came out to so many shows.

    Having you there and documenting it, and then seeing it come out day after day, like, “Here’s this band, here’s this band,” and the bands are sharing it, is such a great way for everyone to experience or see what was happening. It’s great for the bands. It’s great for people like me. It’s great for the venues. You’re doing something incredibly invaluable to support the scene.

    Telling people there was a show is one thing. Showing them there was a show is a whole other thing.

    Aaron (34:09)

    Yeah. Think about all the iconic images from rock and roll that have been put into the world. I get asked, and you asked me recently, if I do video. I do like to do video, but there is something really cool about a great rock and roll picture.

    I don’t know what it is, but you look at something and think, “Man, that show must have been fucking awesome.” Some other sports might have that, some iconic sports photos, and obviously street photography. It’s photography in general. But if you’re a music fan, and I say “an iconic rock and roll photo” or “an iconic music photo,” something clicks in your brain. It might be Ian MacKaye in the basketball hoop or whatever it is. You have that Rolodex in your brain.

    That’s what I want to provide to our local scene, and any scene that will have me come through and take photos. The bands at these shows are putting their heart and soul into the music. Document it and make it cool.

    Scott (35:50)

    Because it’s not even their heart and soul for that 30 minutes on stage. You and I are in bands. It’s the hours, weeks, and months of work that led up to that show. The things you had to give up. The long drives to band practice. The late nights at band practice when you have a job the next day. Balancing band practice when you need to help your daughter with her homework. It’s the creativity and confrontation with bandmates.

    All of that builds up to one 30-minute set, but you shouldn’t be quantified by just that 30 minutes. That 30 minutes is part of the payoff, but you’re adding the cherry on top. Not only did you have a great show, but here is something you can keep forever to remember the show and how you felt and what it was like to be there.

    Aaron (36:46)

    Yeah. I think about bands that have experience putting on a show. Bands that are at a level where it’s not, “What was the part in that song?” They’re not remembering their songs. They’re performing their songs. They are in a state where this is an anthem, a message, something important they are putting out.

    But I also try to remember the bands that are in that “what was the part in that song?” stage. It might be their first show. It might be the first time they’ve ever been on stage. It might be the first time they’ve ever sung the words they wrote down in their notebook, and those words meant something really deep in their soul.

    That might be their first and last show. They might be like, “I don’t want to do this ever again.” But I’m fascinated by the bands that are at that performance level and also the bands that are like, “We’re here, and we don’t know how this is going to go.”

    Scott (38:12)

    We’re trying our very first time. See what happens.

    Aaron (38:14)

    Exactly. And every band wants cool photos. If you’ve played 100 shows or if you’ve played two shows, if you get a cool photo out of any of them, I think that’s worth it.

    Scott (38:28)

    You had mentioned the festivals, and I could be wrong, so correct me if I am, but I feel like Camp Punksylvania is the first time you started taking photos extensively off stage. I think you started taking photos of certain bands. There was the skateboarding photo, I think flying over Hell Beach, maybe some photos of THICK. That was the first time I was aware of you doing non-live photos. Can you talk about that? Is that something you’re leaning toward?

    Aaron (38:56)

    One of my goals in 2026 is to enhance my portraiture work as well. Camp Punksylvania was an exploration in some of that. I was doing a little bit of it last year, like, can I get a cool band portrait?

    The one with Hell Beach where the skateboarder is jumping over Hell Beach was the skateboarder’s idea. Shout out to Concrete Jungle. Those dudes are awesome.

    We were taking photos in the skate park at Camp Punksylvania, with the halfpipe behind them. One of the skaters came up and was like, “Hey, what if I jump over these guys?” I turned to the band and said, “Do you guys want to get jumped over by a skateboarder?” They were like, “Can we see him do it first?”

    We did a test one. He jumped out of the skate park into where you would go to the second stage, and the band said, “All right, cool. Looks like you cleared it. Let’s get under there and do it.”

    The portraiture thing is something I’m interested in because it’s really fucking hard to take a good portrait. I’m not great at it, and I want to get better at it. I learn a lot from my fiancée, who is an amazing photographer.

    I’m trying to learn more from her. Every band wants a cool photo, and I want to figure out what my portraiture style looks like. I have some ideas, but I know I don’t want it to be band in a field or band in front of a brick wall.

    Scott (41:01)

    Band in front of a brick wall. Band in front of a statue.

    Aaron (41:04)

    Or the one where the guys are looking down at the camera and you’re looking up. Can we do something different?

    Scott (41:12)

    I’ve been in bands for years and had people do it for free and people paid. I’ve paid people to do band photos for press, album covers, jackets, and all that. It always seems so trite and forced. It’s like you take on a persona or pose.

    Some bands might just need a photo of us sitting at Fat Tuesdays, eating peanuts and drinking beers. That’s probably closest to a true photo of what we do. I don’t often stand there with my arms crossed looking scary. This is not who I am.

    Aaron (42:04)

    I think some of it comes down to time. It’s hard to get the whole band together. When the whole band is together, you’re either at a venue or you’re like, “We need a band photo, and we don’t have one, so everybody come outside and take a photo.”

    It can be hard to organize. It’s not rocket science, but getting bands together can be difficult. I’ve pitched a few ideas to bands. I pitched one idea to THICK and another to a different band. I think I need a proof of concept before I do it because I laid it all out and they were like, “Yeah, we’re not going to do that.” And I was like, “Okay, no problem.”

    Scott (42:53)

    But proof of concept is important. You should find someone to do it for free and say, “Hey, these will be deleted if you hate them.”

    Aaron (43:01)

    That’s what I say about portraits, especially as I’m learning. I think it’s okay to say, “Listen, I’m not great at this yet. I just want to let you know. Let’s not pretend like this is going to be the amazing portrait you’re going to get.” I want to be upfront with bands.

    When I take a portrait, I purposely don’t share it. I’ll share live photos and collaborate because I’m confident in those. Of course, if a band doesn’t like or doesn’t want a photo, we can take that down. That’s okay.

    But with a portrait, I’m very aware that if a bad portrait goes out or if you’re not vibing with the portrait and someone puts it out, that’s not good. So I say to bands, “I’m going to send these to you. If you dig them, great. Feel free to share them. Here’s how I would prefer to be credited if possible. If you hate them, that’s okay. There’s no obligation to share the portraiture. I’m still learning.”

    I think it’s okay to say that.

    Scott (44:20)

    You mentioned sharing. I’m fairly sure that most of the time when people share your stuff, they credit you. Although I feel like as time goes on and they share a photo from a year ago, it may not get the credit anymore because they may have lost track of who took it. Does that sound accurate?

    Aaron (44:43)

    It happens all the time. It doesn’t have to be a year. It could be three days afterward.

    Scott (44:48)

    How do you handle that? I try really hard, even with people who do my flyers, but sometimes I forget.

    Aaron (44:53)

    You handle it politely and with grace. You reach out and say, “Hey, by the way, that’s my photo. If you wouldn’t mind crediting it this way, that would be great. Thank you.” And 99.9 percent of the time, people say, “Oh, great, thanks. I did not know who took that photo.”

    Photography is interesting because everybody has a camera in their pocket. There’s an idea that a photo is a photo. Everybody has seen a photo. Who gives a shit about a photo? What isn’t seen is how that photo happened. How did you get that photo? Sometimes it’s not as easy as it seems.

    I wouldn’t share a song from a band and not credit them because it took them a year to write that song. You want to credit them.

    Scott (46:18)

    It’s not just the quality of your camera. It’s the quality of what you know how to do. What about when someone takes your picture and stretches it out, focuses on a certain part, cuts out another part, inverts the color, or runs it through Canva? How does that make you feel?

    Aaron (46:45)

    How does it make me feel, or how do I handle it?

    Scott (46:45)

    Both. Especially if they credit you for it and they did that to it.

    Aaron (46:55)

    That gets into interesting territory. If you take an image I took and edit it, modify it, and do your thing with it, that’s not necessarily the art I want to put out there. I would reach out and say, “Hey, look, that’s not necessarily the image or art I’m looking to put out there. If you wouldn’t mind removing the credit, you can keep the photo up. You modified it, and that’s cool, but that’s not necessarily what I’m trying to put out as Put.Over.Photo.”

    For photographers, Instagram and our website are really all we’ve got. I love the credit. Thank you so much. However, if I’m trying to book a band or reach out to a band and they see that image, they might think, “Is that what you’re going to do with my band?” And it’s like, “That’s not necessarily what I’m trying to do.”

    At the same time, you’re modifying an image. We talk about remixes. People remix songs. A cover song is interpretation. I dig it. But most of it comes down to a polite conversation.

    Scott (48:40)

    I’m a big fan of Creative Commons. I’m a big fan of being able to reuse and remix and redo stuff. My old band used to write songs about intellectual property laws. I’m not a huge fan of them.

    Aaron (48:53)

    Yeah, I get it. I think with most things, it’s just a polite conversation.

    Scott (49:05)

    You mentioned being in the front line at festivals. What’s it like being in the front line at shows where it gets chaotic, maybe not violent, but certainly on the edge? It’s not a gentle push pit anymore. It becomes something more.

    Aaron (49:40)

    You look around to see where the core energy is. It’s the same thing as when I’m observing a band in the first song. Who is the heartbeat of the energy? Who is the core of the energy being put out there? Then you turn around and go, “Uh-oh, there’s a pit behind me. Where’s the core of the energy in that pit?”

    What type of energy is out there? Is it a gentle circle pit? Those are fun. I can get in the middle of those, hold my camera up, and it’s generally pretty cool.

    If it’s a band like Fight for Survival, and there are people throwing fists and feet, from a subject matter standpoint, that’s fascinating. I want to capture a really cool photo of that and walk out of the pit with my whole self intact as the smallish man I am. There are much larger people in there throwing a lot more weight around.

    From a subject matter standpoint, it’s fascinating. You have a room full of people, or a group of people in a large area, seemingly very angry. If you know the scene, it’s usually wine and roses. But from an outsider’s perspective, what other moment in your day, week, or year have you been around 10, 15, or 20 people who are throwing their fists as fast as they can and kicking the air?

    It’s absolutely fascinating. But you want to come out unscathed. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. Dave from Face Photo has some pretty cool stories about shooting in the pit and coming into work the next day with a black eye. If you can avoid it, great. If not, it also makes for a cool story.

    Scott (52:08)

    Yeah, Luis got cracked in the head the other day.

    Aaron (52:09)

    Did he? Oh shit. Is he all right?

    Scott (52:28)

    Yeah. He said it was probably the most violent show he’d been to. He had already gotten hit, and the guy was apologetic. He was like, “It’s fine, I’m good.” Then he got hit again and said, “I think I might have broken a rib there.” Someone punched him in the side. Then he backed up and tried to take a couple of photos, and he doesn’t know if it was a fist to the face or his own camera knocked into his face.

    He was so blinded by it. He had to go to the back and get the owner to give him something to take care of it. Blood was streaming down his face. But he’s okay.

    Aaron (53:24)

    I’m glad Luis is all right. It’s a risk you’re aware of. Photographers are anything for the shot, and you try to get it. But at some point, you are also a person. People like to get punched in the face sometimes, I guess. I don’t. Especially when taking photos. Accidents happen, and that’s fine.

    Scott (54:00)

    How much of your process is the editing process? What is the editing process? I mentioned at RPM Fest that you spent like three hours editing. Is that three hours of just going good, crap, good, crap? Or are you going in and saying, this could be good, but let me enlarge it, shift it over to the right, and focus on this aspect? How is the editing process as important as the photo-taking process?

    Aaron (54:39)

    It’s all of the above. Festivals are a little bit different for my process. It helps with shows like Snappers, Night Swim, and Ruckus that I’ve photographed there so much now. I don’t necessarily have to figure out the room. I don’t have to figure out what the edit is going to look like because I know how to bring out the colors I want to bring out. I know how this room is going to react to the edit.

    Festivals are a little slower for me because it’s a place I usually haven’t shot before. If it’s outside, the light is constantly changing. You have an all-day situation where you’re shooting in sunlight, then sunset, then at night with all the lights. Those are three totally different things.

    In the process of editing festival photos, and really all shows, you’re going through and saying, “I like this. I like this. I don’t like this.”

    The added layer with festivals is figuring out the image you’re trying to put out and how it is going to come through in this brand-new place you’ve never shot before, under all these different conditions. Plus, you shot a boatload of photos.

    If you’re shooting for a festival officially, they usually want 10 to 15 photos the day after. So now you’re scrambling to say, “What are the 10 to 15 I think I got throughout the day? Let me get those. Let me edit them. Let me compose them in a way that makes sense.”

    You talked about shifting it around or cropping it. Very rarely am I bringing a photo in from the camera, editing it, and not cropping it.

    I have a grading system for photos. One, two, three, and rejection. Rejection is, I’m not even going to try to edit this. One is, this could be something. Two is, this is definitely something. Three is, this is a standout, the shot of the set or the night. It has to be organized. It’s a shitload of files.

    Scott (57:23)

    That’s a lot of organization. I actually feel bad because I’ll get a Dropbox folder from Dave, and you’ll send me your download link. I really wish I was organizing these better, but I download them, upload them, and I just have folders called Aaron’s photos, Dave’s photos. I don’t have the bandwidth to go through and organize all that. But then I’m like, I’ll just reach out to Aaron if I need something.

    Aaron (57:46)

    That’s why I try to stay organized. Months after Camp Punksylvania or RPM, people will reach out and say, “Hey, I was in the crowd during this set. I saw you. Do you have a photo of me? It was my favorite band.”

    That literally happened. I got a message on Instagram. It was a picture of me that I didn’t take, that my friends didn’t take, that no one at Camp Punksylvania took. All it said was, “Is this you?”

    I was like, this can go eight different ways right now. I don’t know if I’m going to respond to this message. I said, “Yeah, what’s going on?”

    The dude proceeded to tell me it was one of his favorite bands. Seeing them live was a lifelong bucket list thing. He wanted to take the photo, print it out, blow it up, and put it in his studio. His wife had gotten one angle of him crowd surfing, facing away from the stage. I was behind, facing the stage, and was able to get him with his favorite band in the background.

    So that happened months afterward. If I wasn’t organized, I’d be like, “I don’t know, dude. I got so many photos from Camp Punksylvania.”

    Scott (59:19)

    Yeah. I think I said, “Hey, do you have any Girth Control pictures?” I know I have some, but me scrolling through is going to take far longer than if I just ask you.

    Aaron (59:48)

    Exactly. I have a whole system where all my files from the camera are in my house. I back it up with my photos app and my phone, so if I need to quickly share something on social media, I have a version of that.

    If a band reaches out, it’s all organized in folders. If you asked me right now to pull up a photo of Girth Control from the two or three shows I shot with them, I could do that fairly quickly.

    Scott (1:00:28)

    So this is the process you said you didn’t have before. This is what allows you to do what you’re doing.

    Aaron (1:00:31)

    Very much so. Without that, you’re going to be drowning. You’ll be drowning in people asking for photos. You’ll be drowning in edits. You’ll be behind in edits. If a promoter books eight shows in June, that’s a lot of photos to get through.

    I think back to the band that might be playing their first show and is waiting for those photos to come out. I don’t want them to have to wait months and months.

    Scott (1:01:24)

    No, you’re pretty fast. I will literally get up to go to the bathroom in the morning and check my phone before I go back to bed and be like, “Oh, Aaron posted more photos.”

    How many photos do you take per band? Do you set yourself a limit? I imagine you don’t want to take a hundred because that’s just going to give you more editing work.

    Aaron (1:01:49)

    No, I want to take more than that. When I started last April, photographers listening might recognize this as spray and pray. You’ve got your camera and you’re just taking a billion photos. You do that if you think something is going on and you’re trying to capture something.

    I know Dave is really good at limiting his spray and pray moments. I’ve gotten way better at limiting mine since April. I remember coming home from Rally in the Valley and thinking, this is a shitload of photos. There has to be a way to not come home and have to go through literally thousands of photos.

    The more you don’t want to sit and go through thousands of photos, the more you want to pick your moments and pick your time. I’m looking less through my camera during a show than I am looking through my camera, if that makes sense. I don’t look at my camera a lot.

    If I come back to my house and each band has anywhere between 200 and 300 photos, that’s pretty good. I’m all right with that.

    Scott (1:04:28)

    Do you ever feel like you miss moments? Like, “Oh, I wish I caught that.” I say that because there are times when I’m playing drums where I do something ridiculously exaggerated and the photographer will notice and come watch to see if I do it again. But no, that was it. That was the moment. It’s gone.

    Aaron (1:04:33)

    All the time. There are so many photos out there that I wish I took. There are so many photos I took that I was like, “Man, if I was a half second earlier, that would have been a cool photo, but this one is going in the trash.”

    It comes down to instinct. There was a funny moment when E.R.I.E. from Albany was playing Snappers. I was behind the drum kit, and Chad and I know each other a little because my band has played with E.R.I.E. I wanted to take photos of him. He went to give me a fist bump between songs, and I instinctively snapped the photo. He was like, “I was going for a fist bump. What are you doing?” I was like, “I’m sorry. I’m in camera mode. Snap the photo. Here’s the fist bump. Thank you.”

    That is part of not wanting to miss a moment.

    Scott (1:05:50)

    Maybe it’s because I’m a drummer, but I feel like it’s hard to get good drummer pictures. There are so many drummer pictures where it’s just the drummer. Maybe the sticks are moving fast, but it almost feels like they’re just sitting there holding drumsticks.

    Aaron (1:06:03)

    Growing up with my dad being a drummer and my brother being a drummer, I want to make drummer photos cool. If I can get a cool photo of the lead singer screaming their ass off, I want that same energy for the drummer. Or the bass player tucked back by the drummer.

    It is hard to get an image that isn’t just someone holding sticks. In my mind, drummers are cartoons and octopuses doing this wild thing through the set. I want to capture that. I want it to look like an old cartoon where there’s a ball of dust and things sticking out of it. A hand comes up, then a foot is over here, then a hockey stick comes out of the thing.

    That’s how drummers look to me. I want to capture the motion.

    Scott (1:06:57)

    You want to capture the motion.

    Aaron (1:07:19)

    Exactly. I get really excited when I go behind the kit and think, “Can we get some really cool energetic photos of the drummer?” Because 99 percent of the time, drummers are putting in a shitload of energy during the set. It doesn’t necessarily come through if it’s just someone holding sticks.

    So that is a goal of mine at every show: how can I get a rad photo of the drummer that conveys the energy they’re putting out?

    Scott (1:08:16)

    Do you ever take crowd photos? Instead of facing the stage, do you turn around and get a big crowd shot?

    Aaron (1:08:18)

    Yeah, I love taking crowd photos. At venues like Snappers, some of my favorite images were when the FUs were playing. There was a really cool group of people who came in from outside, and they were just losing their shit over the FUs. I think some of them had maybe never heard the FUs, or knew one song, or whatever. They were having a blast.

    I had gotten what I needed from the FUs. I got their set photos. Then I turned around and was able to grab some really cool moments of these people thoroughly enjoying this legendary band.

    Venues like Gramercy Theater in Manhattan are a totally different vibe, but the energy is also there. If you’re in the photo pit there, the people in the front row are absolutely fucking thrilled. They paid two or three hundred dollars depending on the band, which is crazy, but they are amped to the gills to see this band.

    I usually strike up a conversation with the folks in the front row. That also makes for great photos later because then they start playing to the camera. Halfway through the set, when the band is reaching out to them, I’ve had a conversation with them for 10 or 15 minutes, maybe given them one of my small stickers, and they start to play to the camera. It makes for a much more honest photo because it’s someone who is so excited to see their favorite thing that night.

    I was shooting Foxy Shazam in December, and I was unaware that the keyboard player was going to take his keyboard, throw it into the crowd, and start playing while crowd surfing. He literally threw the thing over me, and the security from his band came over and shoved me aside because they wanted to make sure he was all right. I was like, what the fuck is happening?

    I ended up getting up on the barricade and shot a photo of the crowd being his keyboard stand. There’s one person in it who looks like it is the best day of his life. He’s holding up the keyboard, smiling ear to ear, as the guy in his favorite band is playing and he’s part of the thing.

    He reached out after the show and said, “Can I get that photo? That’s me there, and that was the best moment of my life.”

    I love taking photos of the crowd because it really is a collaboration. It’s not just the band on stage. It’s the whole experience you want to capture.

    Scott (1:12:25)

    That is awesome, dude. It’s fascinating because I find the same thing when I talk to sound engineers. Even though they do the same thing, their perspectives are different. Not inherently better or worse, but fascinating.

    Talking to you after talking to Dave from Face Photo and hearing your different backgrounds and experiences and how you look at things, there’s a through line of similarity, but then there are also divergences. That shows up in your art as well, because your photos are not the same, which is one of the things I love best about having the two of you so central to the Hudson Valley. You do not take the same pictures of the same show.

    Aaron (1:13:04)

    We don’t. But I do want to take a moment to say that Dave is a fucking legend.

    I want to share a story about Rally in the Valley last year. You introduced me to Dave for the first time and said, “Hey, this is Aaron. He’s going to be taking some photos along with you during the festival.” That could have gone a million different ways, especially in the photography world.

    Dave, being the awesome and welcoming person he is, stuck his hand out and said, “Hey man, welcome. Can’t wait to shoot with you.” We had a conversation for the next 20 minutes about what we like to shoot. I had never met the guy before. This is my first time taking photos in a few years. I didn’t know how it was going to go. My shit might fucking blow at the end of this night. Who knows?

    Dave was so gracious and welcoming, and he continues to be gracious and welcoming. That is something that is unfortunately increasingly rare in the arts and photography. It’s so stupidly competitive when it doesn’t need to be.

    I love shooting shows alongside Dave because you’re right, we get totally different things. I can’t do what Dave does. I’ve told him, “Dude, when your shit hits social media, it sounds like a steel beam hitting concrete. Boom. There’s your fucking photo, and it slams. It’s awesome.”

    Mine is like some sort of hippie tripping out and staring into the galaxy.

    Scott (1:14:57)

    But he said the same thing to me about your stuff. He’s like, “I can’t do what Aaron does. I’ve tried, but I can’t do it.”

    Aaron (1:15:01)

    I respect the shit out of Dave. I respect his artistic ability and his approach to building community around it. That’s what I think is cool. We’ve talked about how we each do what we do, and we share things back and forth. That’s all right.

    Photography does not need to be competitive. The arts don’t need to be competitive. If you can play guitar a million miles an hour and someone is interested in learning how to do that, show them. It doesn’t need to be a competition. It doesn’t matter how many listeners you have on Spotify, how many followers you have on Instagram, or how many likes your photo gets.

    I was at Empire Underground and was introduced to someone who wanted to take photos for bands and concerts. They were like, “I don’t know what I’m doing. I have my camera. I don’t really know how to use it. What should I do?”

    I’ve had that conversation a couple of times. What I say is, the first thing you need to remember is that you’re doing it. You’re out here. There are people at home who want to do this and take photos, but they are at home sitting on their couch. You are here. That’s rule number one. Go and do it.

    Rule number two: have fun. Don’t worry about, “Oh, my photo sucks.” It’s repetitive. Go, do, learn, ask questions. Go up to people and ask, “How did you get that shot?” or “What was your approach?”

    That whole night at Empire Underground, this photographer would come back to me after each set and show me what they got. We went through their photos. I asked, “What were you going for here?” They said what they were trying to get. So we talked between sets. “Try this next time if that’s what you want. Try this if that’s what you want.”

    Sure as shit, they came back after the next set and had something. I saw the excitement rise because they were like, “All right, I got one image in here that I was going for, and I think I got it.”

    Long story to say, don’t judge. Teach. And if you are someone who would like to do this but doesn’t know if you can, you can. Go and do it. That’s the most important thing.

    Scott (1:18:24)

    If anyone thought I was being hyperbolic at the beginning of this when I said how kind and awesome Aaron was, if you just listened to the last five minutes, you realize I was probably understating it. Everything you’re saying is why you are so vital to our scene and why I consider you one of my newest closest friends.

    You’re such a good person. I love what you do for yourself, for your art, and for the community. If everyone did that across music, photography, painting, or anything in the world, like you said, “don’t judge, teach,” I think that’s a great approach. As a former teacher, by the way, we were forced to judge a lot as teachers.

    Aaron (1:19:13)

    I appreciate your kind words. I know it gets said at shows you put on, but I don’t think we should stop shouting out the hard work you are putting in and the unbelievable community that is DCxPC, the Hudson Valley, Outsider Magazine, the folks at Reason and Ruckus, Night Swim, and all this rad shit going down in the Hudson Valley, right on down through New York City and all the way up to Albany and Troy.

    I think that embodies what you are doing and why people rally behind you and Rally in the Valley. People are rallying behind you because you are out there doing it. People see that and go, “Shit, yeah, I can go hang a flyer up. I can put a show on. I can organize something in a way that is fun, thoughtful, and important.”

    Because none of this shit is guaranteed. So hang on tight.

    Scott (1:20:32)

    Thank you so much. It’s very kind. As you said, the point is just, God, I don’t really like doing Nike slogans, but just do it. If you don’t get out and do it, it won’t happen.

    I often say, “All I’m doing is putting on shows,” but I’m putting on shows. I’ll book a tour and can’t find a promoter or venue to respond, and then I’ll start going through bands. Bands will say, “Oh, we don’t put on shows.” And I’m like, who the frick does? Who is putting on the damn shows if no one in the band is doing it? How are there shows in your area? Someone has to do it.

    Aaron (1:21:13)

    Yeah, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be as big as putting on a show. I think about musician friends or artist friends who never put anything out, and they are amazing. I get that some people make art for themselves and don’t need to put it out. That’s fine.

    But for the people who second-guess themselves, just know that there are people out there who want to see and experience your art.

    Scott (1:22:04)

    Yes. And people want to help you and support you. Don’t consider something not being perfect as not being good. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Things are very rarely perfect, but good is good.

    Aaron (1:22:18)

    Exactly. If we’re talking about bands on stage, it might be their first show. Before you even play a note, before you click your shutter, before you do anything, the most important thing is that you’re on that stage, in that venue.

    Scott (1:22:47)

    You showed up.

    Aaron (1:22:47)

    Right. Everything else after that is a byproduct. The more you do it, the more you’re going to figure yourself out as an artist, as a musician, and as someone who creates. It’s not imitation. It’s your creation.

    Scott (1:23:12)

    Fair enough. Thank you, Aaron. I appreciate you being on. I could talk to you all day long, but I try to keep these episodes to about an hour, and we’re already at an hour and 23. I just try to respect other people’s time.

    I’m going to have links to all of Aaron’s stuff in the show description. Please go to Aaron’s website, go to his Instagram, follow him, and check out all his photos.

    Please also, if you enjoyed this podcast, follow the podcast and share it. Go to dcxpclive.com and subscribe to our email for shows, vinyl, podcasts, and more. Thank you all so very much for listening. And Aaron, I cannot thank you enough for how much you’ve made my life better.

    Aaron (1:23:56)

    Thank you. I can’t thank you enough either. Appreciate it, man. Thanks for having me on.

    Scott (1:24:01)

    Thank you, my buddy. I’m going to hit stop now because that’s what I do.

  • Episode 27: Lara Hope / O+ Festival

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal through short-run vinyl releases. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I've learned that scenes don't survive on music alone. They survive because people build infrastructure, take care of each other, and imagine something bigger than a show flyer or a lineup.

    Today I'm talking with Lara Hope, one of the driving forces behind O+ Festival in Kingston, New York. O+ is a truly unique model that brings together music, visual art, and wellness by trading art for healthcare and building a temporary but deeply intentional community rooted in mutual aid, access, and care.

    And while Lara is best known maybe for her work as a musician, running projects like Lara Hope and the Arktones and the recently reformed Tiger Piss, her work goes far beyond the stage. Through O+, she's helped rethink what supporting artists actually means, especially in scenes where healthcare, sustainability, and burnout are constant realities. O+ isn't just an event. It's an ecosystem built around care, labor, and long-term sustainability.

    And I am so stoked to sit here and talk with Lara Hope about all that it does. How are you doing, Lara?

    Lara Hope (01:37)

    Great. And that was such a nice introduction and a way to describe the work we're doing. Thank you.

    Scott (01:42)

    I love what you're doing. And I could have put in the introduction how we met and how much O+ actually involved me moving to Kingston. You're one of the very first people that I met in Kingston before I moved here. I don't know if you recall that street interaction.

    Lara Hope (02:01)

    I remember chatting with you at Keegan Ales. Was it before that?

    Scott (02:05)

    It was before that. We met right before the O+ Fest with Tsunami Bomb and Skappository. My family was coming up from Florida for an evacuation vacation because the hurricane was coming through. I had been looking at doctoral programs throughout the Northeast, and one of them was UAlbany.

    My wife really loved the Hudson Valley. We had done a bicycle trip through here during the pandemic as a safe vacation option, and she was determined to get me to agree to live in the Hudson Valley. So we're here in Kingston, and you're standing outside promoting an upcoming O+ Festival. We chat for a little bit, you hand me the information, and I'm like, Tsunami Bomb? I'm kind of friends with Andy. We chat online all the time. I love that band.

    I was like, okay, this looks interesting. And it happened to be the weekend before I was scheduled to fly up here anyway to travel to NYU, Columbia, Albany, and interview doctoral programs. My wife's like, you should go to O+ Festival. I was like, really? I'm already going to be gone five days. You want me to be gone another three days? She said, definitely. Because she wanted me to see that there was a music scene in the area, because she knew I couldn't live anywhere without one.

    So I came up and loved O+ Festival. I met Skappository, put out the record, hung out with Chris from the comic book shop, hung out with you, saw you sing on stage with Tsunami Bomb, and checked out all the venues, Keegan Ales, Snapper Magee's, et cetera. I was like, okay, I could live in this area. This could work. And lo and behold, come January, where am I? So thank you for that.

    Lara Hope (03:27)

    I remember that. I love that. Hell yeah, we're doing it. That makes me really happy.

    Scott (03:52)

    It makes me happy. And it makes me happy that you're doing something so intentional and thoughtful for musicians because we've all played the show where we get paid gas money. Or it seems like a lot of money because I've done shows where I pay a band, say, $800, but it's a ska band with seven members. So it's like you're saying, hey, a little bit of money helps, but a little bit of healthcare helps a lot.

    Can you tell me where this all came from? Can you take me back to the granular seed of what this is and where it came from?

    Lara Hope (04:25)

    Yeah, absolutely.

    So the festival that we just threw this past October, October 2025, was the 15th festival. I believe it was the 15th festival in 16 years because we skipped one because of COVID. But I love the origin story, and it sounds like a joke, but it's real.

    It was a brewery owner, a dentist, and an artist-activist sitting at the bar, which was Keegan Ales, probably 17 years ago or so. They're sitting around bullshitting, and the dentist says, there's a band from the city that I really love, and I don't know much about booking. I don't really know if I could afford them or how it works, but hell, I would be willing to clean their teeth or take care of their dental work if I could get them to come up here and play.

    Joe Concra, co-founder of O+ and artist-activist, kind of had that light bulb go off over his head. He said, Tom, meaning Tom Cingel, who still works closely with O+ as one of our dentists, that's a great idea. Why don't we reach out to them and see if they'd be willing to come up here and play in exchange for dental work?

    I believe that band was Monogold, and Keith Kelly is still currently the bartender now at Keegan Ales. He wasn't around for years, but he is there now. It's very, very full circle.

    So the festival began small. I don't think I was at maybe the first one or two, but I've been to probably everyone after that. I moved to Kingston in 2012, but I lived in the area prior to that, in Rosendale and New Paltz.

    I remember just really, really loving it. I've always obviously been an avid music lover and gone out of my way to see live music and go to festivals and play. The thought of something on such a big scale coming to our area, where I didn't have to travel to another state or whatever to get to see all this music and all this art, even as just a spectator, I thought was very, very cool.

    Then when I got involved, I feel like I was always involved in some way up until the years I started working for them. A couple of times I played. We can only take so many artists and there are so many submissions. I think I've only ever played once with each of my bands over the course of 15 years. It's really hard, just based on capacity, to have people play multiple times, especially because of our now year-round clinic, which we can get into in a bit.

    So I performed at it a couple of times and volunteered every year. A couple years I hosted the open mic event. Then in 2018 or 2019, I got invited to be on the music committee, which we can also talk more about. So I got to see more of how it works from the inside in terms of curation, and that was a cool experience.

    But being a musician and going and getting the full experience, getting the care, performing, and seeing everything else, that was really meaningful. At the time, I believe I had Medicaid, which is great. You literally can't buy health insurance better than Medicaid. But even that doesn't cover a lot of things.

    I think as a working artist, it really is manual labor. It's really physical, whether that's being a musician or painting or a million other things. It's repetitive motion over and over again and schlepping heavy gear. So getting to do things through O+ that I had never been able to try before, like acupuncture and chiropractic, was huge.

    You can go to a doctor and they'll throw medicine at you. But if you can actually find the root of what is hurting you through things like bodywork, acupuncture, physical therapy, or chiropractic, and really try to fix your problem, that's awesome. That was stuff I was able to do through O+. The first time I ever tried acupuncture, the first time I ever saw a chiropractor, and even knowing that was something that I would like or something that could help me, came from O+.

    Scott (08:49)

    That makes a lot of sense. The idea of trying something like acupuncture, I did it out of desperation once and it worked great. But I was in so much pain and nothing else was working, and it was a lot of money. It was something I was scared to do because I was paying out of pocket because my insurance didn't cover it.

    And you started off talking about the dentist. I have dental insurance, but it only covers two cleanings a year. If I need a root canal or my kids need braces, anything like that, it's not that I imagine you cover braces at O+ Fest, but just the idea that healthcare is a real issue.

    Lara Hope (09:27)

    Yeah, but the fact that we have all these connections with dentists means at the very least we can try to get you a discount on things as an O+ family member.

    Scott (09:38)

    There are so many questions to dig into on this. What are the range of healthcare services that the festival provides, and how do you find the healthcare people willing to do it? Are they just volunteering their time and effort?

    Lara Hope (09:56)

    They're volunteering their time. The festival is paying for supplies and things like that. Even when we go to the dentist, there are supplies to be paid for, and there are, of course, fees associated. But people are donating their time for the most part.

    It changes a little bit year to year, what is available at the festival clinic, based on who is available and who wants to do it. We have a really wonderful clinic coordinator, Jessie Shearer, who is a massage therapist by trade, and she's been running the clinic for years. She is beloved in the community, and she knows a ton of people. She has been accumulating this list of providers and doing outreach throughout the year for a long time.

    There are our repeat offenders, people who love being a part of it and come back every year. And then there are always new people moving to town. I see the emails when people reach out to us throughout the year saying they'd like to be involved. A lot of it is referral based, too. She's always looking for new stuff.

    It's never the same. Even during the festival weekend, it's not the same day to day. When you walk into the clinic, there will be a big chalkboard of what's available right now. Some of it is standard, like the things I just mentioned. But someone said to me the other day, when I go to the O+ Festival clinic, I just look at the list and think, what is the weirdest shit on here that I can get done? Something that maybe I haven't ever heard of before or wouldn't know where to get.

    I remember we've had hypnotherapy. We've done that. And there was a thing with tuning forks this year. There's always some kind of interesting out-there stuff. And I hear it over the weekend. People will be like, the tuning forks guy was amazing. I left feeling so good. I didn't know about that.

    And then there are the people who want a massage. A lot of people want a massage. People always want a massage.

    Scott (11:25)

    That was the first thing in my mind. You just read it.

    That is phenomenal. You started by talking about bringing a band up, but from my experience going, you have artists and poets and a whole range. It's beyond music. When did it branch out from being beyond music? How did that happen?

    Lara Hope (12:02)

    To my knowledge, it was always music, art, and wellness. Art is loosely defined because it also incorporates dance, visual art, installation, and all sorts of things. It's different every year. My mind is always blown by the grand vector of how many different things are going on.

    I think we have 60-something murals around the city of Kingston now that are all part of O+. And yeah, it's always been about art incorporating all of these different mediums.

    Scott (12:50)

    Okay, very cool. Musically, it's pretty diverse. I mean, I feel like I can go see some Balkan square dancing as well as a ska punk band, but then also a math rock band. There is just a lot of musical diversity. Would that be an accurate description?

    Lara Hope (13:08)

    Yeah, I always like to say we're a non-genre-specific festival and that there's something for everybody. If you like classical or punk rock or anything in between, there will be at least one or two things that you can really cling on to. And hopefully it's an opportunity to broaden your palette and see some stuff you might not have gone to see otherwise.

    Kingston is a really diverse city, and we want to represent everybody and all the diverse cultural perspectives and musical genres and have something that draws everybody in.

    Scott (13:42)

    I like that. And you mentioned the submission process. Could you describe what you're able to share? How does the submission process and choosing musicians and artists go? When does it start?

    Lara Hope (13:51)

    Yeah, absolutely.

    The submission process these days opens in March. That's the plan for now. I think we might shorten the submission window a little bit this year, but it'll still be open for about a month, at least for music. I can't speak for art.

    It gives you an opportunity to explain who you are, give a little bit of a proposal about what your show would be, and tell us if you have specific audio-visual needs. It gives you an opportunity to tell us where you're from, if you have any healthcare needs, and if you were referred by someone else from the festival or someone who has played before.

    I'm the director of music programming, but I put together a music committee every year. That's usually anywhere from five to seven people. I mentioned I was on the committee in 2018, so it was really nice to have been in it from that perspective before having this role.

    We've had a couple people who have done it a few years in a row, but most of the people are changing every year intentionally so that we have people from different age groups, different genders, different backgrounds, and people who like different kinds of music. The music committee is there to review these submissions.

    We'll get 200 submissions, and we only have maybe 30 or 40 spots. So we're continuously going through and looking for things such as whether you have played before. As I mentioned before, we're really trying not to bring bands back so we can give new people an opportunity to not only access the clinic at the festival, but now also the year-round clinic.

    Starting last year, we have a year-round clinic. If you have ever been part of the festival before, and that backdates to anyone who has ever been part of the festival, you now have an opportunity to be part of our year-round clinic if you find yourself in need. That's even more of a reason for us to want to get new people in the door and give them access to this instead of having the same people who already have access to it.

    We're also looking at genre because we want to make sure we're not booking too much of a specific thing. And really importantly, what is your healthcare need? Do you have a need? Do you have a specific need that we think we can help you with? Because if there are two bands and we love both of them, the music is great, but one of them has a healthcare need and one of them doesn't, we're going to take the band that has the healthcare need.

    That's interesting because I've had people over the years say to me, and I was guilty of this too back in the day, I don't want to seem too needy in my submission because I want to make sure other people get an opportunity. But it's the opposite. Tell us what you need. That helps us curate.

    That's what we do with the music committee. Art has its own separate committee that does a similar thing for the art submissions. And it's hard because there's so much good stuff that comes in. It sucks. My least favorite part of the job is saying no to people. I hate it.

    Scott (17:18)

    I get it. I participate as a vendor at Camp Punksylvania and The Fest in Florida, and people are like, I never get picked. I’m like, they get thousands of people, right? It's hard. And Camp Punksylvania does a committee too. They have their hardcore person, ska person, pop punk person.

    Lara Hope (17:37)

    I applied to play that this year, and I haven't heard back.

    Scott (17:39)

    Yeah, it's hard. Even though I've put out their compilation album and I've been there and been a sponsor, people ask if I have any say. My own band didn't get chosen. I have no power. It's not a who-you-know situation. It's a real process.

    Same thing with The Fest in Florida. This year they're going to a submission form for the first time in 24 years. Prior to that, you had to email Tony Weinbender and hope he saw it, even though he had a kid four years ago and life is hard. I never get offended. You don't get offended. You just accept that there are reasons.

    I'll see it with Punk Island too. People get upset and post on social media. I'm like, really? You think someone's got it out for you? Look at the diversity of what's going on here.

    Lara Hope (18:36)

    Absolutely. Again, it's not personal.

    Scott (18:39)

    There's no entitlement to anything. Even with Rally in the Valley in April, I'm trying very hard not to repeat any bands from last year. Even the bands I manage, I know they want to play and I appreciate that.

    Lara Hope (18:54)

    You want to provide opportunities for more people. I get it.

    Scott (18:55)

    Yeah, and I also want it to be more fun for people to come and not see the same bands again. It's only been a year. There are a lot of great bands out there.

    It will be at Snapper's again. Speaking of Snapper's, two things. I've never repeated a single band on one of my Sunday shows until last month. I went 12 months without repeating a band. And I've had people call me a gatekeeper. I'm like, how am I a gatekeeper when I don't repeat bands? I'd say punk-adjacent, but it's pretty diverse. Everyone likes to complain.

    Back to Snapper's and the submission process. You have so many venues, and you added Snapper's this year. When you're going through the submission process, do you already know which venues you can have live music at? I think you did Assembly this year too, which is a new venue.

    Lara Hope (19:54)

    Ideally, yes. That's something we're going to be working on in the coming weeks, trying to really solidify where we plan to have music so that when we go through the submission process, we know what we're doing. It's ideal when you're going through submissions to have an idea of where you're going to put people when curating, for sure.

    And thank you. You did a great job.

    Scott (20:10)

    Because you do try to keep everything within a circumference.

    Lara Hope (20:14)

    Ideally, we want it to be walkable, bikeable, or a short drive if possible. It's hard because there are great places in Kingston, like Unicorn and UPAC, but they are a little bit outside the Uptown area. So it is nice to have a small footprint, kind of like The Fest in Gainesville, where everything is right there and you can walk to places. I love that.

    Scott (20:40)

    Yes. It is very rare. There were a couple times where they had venues a little bit out of reach. I think it was Mother's Pub or some Irish place. It wasn't inherently far, but if you were at the other furthest end, it could be a good two and a half miles. I was like, all right, I'm going to Uber to that one. They don't do shows there anymore. I don't know if the venue shut down or if it's because it was too far.

    Lara Hope (21:18)

    That's probably why, because it's too far. Especially at The Fest or O+, where there's so much going on, and there's a good chance there are two things you want to see in one hour. To be able to hop back and forth and see a little bit of both is great.

    Scott (21:32)

    Yep. I have consistently walked in and seen 15 minutes of something. I was like, all right, that was my nice amuse-bouche, and now I'm moving on to my next thing, my next hors d'oeuvre tray. It's the same thing at Punk Island. There are like 15 stages. I was like, okay, I'm watching this band. Oh, I hear another band starting over there. I've watched three songs. Next band it is.

    Lara Hope (21:42)

    Take a few pictures. I saw it. I experienced it. For sure.

    Scott (21:55)

    Yeah, it was great. Next.

    Lara Hope (21:59)

    We're working on that. We're always trying to use non-traditional spaces. We used Assembly, and that was great. Historically, O+ has been about using non-traditional spaces. For years, we had that great alleyway, the summer alley, that unfortunately we can't use anymore because of unfair landlords that I will not mention. Their name rhymes with thunder.

    So we're always trying to find different places, storefronts, alleyways, parking lots, or people's yards. We're trying to think outside the box.

    Scott (22:40)

    You should check out that grocery store on the corner near Assembly. I went to a hardcore show there right before winter hit.

    Lara Hope (22:49)

    Right next to the bike shop?

    Scott (22:51)

    Right next to Assembly, on the corner. The new grocery store. They had a show in their basement.

    Lara Hope (22:53)

    That's really good to know because her partner, or ex-partner, runs the bike shop that's right next door that we've used as a venue. That has been a really sweet example of a non-traditional space that we use. I loved having intimate shows there. He does shows there throughout the year. I didn't know about the grocery store. That's awesome.

    Scott (23:04)

    It was really fun because I hadn't been to a straight-up basement show in a hot minute because they don't have basements in Florida. I was like, okay, this is great. They had a shelf to put merch up, and luckily I had my drum rug with me because nobody had a drum rug.

    I got to see Come Mierda. Half the members are in Jersey and half are in California. I just had a blast. They had beer for sale upstairs, and I was having the time of my life at this super rad basement show in a grocery store.

    Lara Hope (23:51)

    I just wrote it down in my venue notes so I don't forget about the grocery store. Cool. That's great.

    To circle back to your question about the year-round clinic, we had been renting the space next door to Keegan Ales behind Camp Kingston for the past year and a half, and that's where we had our clinic space. But in an attempt to consolidate, we now have the space at 334 Wall Street, which is on the corner of Wall and North Front. It used to be Bop to Tottom, and we are using it as an art gallery, venue space, our new office, and pretty much everything.

    Behind the stage is a clinic room where we have a primary care physician on staff. That's where you would go if you were seeing a primary care physician. Depending on what you're looking for, a lot of the care is not happening in our office. If you wanted to see a dentist, obviously you would go to their office. If you wanted acupuncture, you would likely be set up with a practitioner and go to their office. But our clinic is where you would see our general practitioner.

    Scott (25:01)

    That is super. Is that open to staff and volunteers, or is it primarily for artists and musicians? Not that I would be upset if that's all it was because that's a lot already.

    Lara Hope (25:10)

    It's really for the alumni, people who have performed or created art for the festival. We do a thing during the festival for super volunteers. If you do two shifts, which is eight hours over the weekend, you get one clinic visit during the weekend of the festival.

    Scott (25:14)

    That makes perfect sense. I believe that was mentioned to me because I did the two Snapper's shows, but I was too busy.

    Lara Hope (25:32)

    I wish you had the time to go. You didn't have a chance, and we love you. If you need something, reach out and we'll always see what we can do.

    Scott (25:37)

    Luckily, I am a New York State employee, so my health insurance overall is pretty amazing. I don't want to take those services from other people. If I really needed something, I would have found the time. But I'm relatively good, thank you.

    This is just really great stuff. Is anybody copying you anywhere else? Has anyone said, I love what they're doing, let me go elsewhere and do it in other places? Have you seen any spin-offs?

    Lara Hope (26:09)

    Yeah. In earlier years of O+, there were quite a few. I wasn't involved in these, but there was an O+ with the national O+ team and some of the OG Kingston people. They helped do an O+ in Petaluma, California. I think that happened a couple of times. There was one in Chicago. I think there was one in Philadelphia. There was one in North Adams, Massachusetts, and there were ones in Poughkeepsie. I know there's been talk even right now about maybe doing one in Ellenville.

    Our team was just chatting about it this morning on Slack. We have a thing called the Toolkit. If you are interested in hosting your own O+ Festival, there's a booklet that's been put together with basic guidelines on how you can get started. Joe, the co-founder, will hop on a call with you and give you the rundown and see if this is something you want to do on your own or if there's a way we can help and get incorporated.

    As of right now, Kingston has been the only one for the past few years. But like I mentioned, all those other places had happened, and I'm sure there will be more in the future.

    Scott (27:17)

    That is super rad. I would love to see it inspire more. I think you and I talked that one time outside of Keegan's or Rough Draft about doing a punk rock flea market because there are a lot of those going around. I would love to see O+ all over. It's just such a great O+ idea. I didn't mean to say it like that, but it's super rad.

    So do you work for them now, or are you a volunteer staffer?

    Lara Hope (27:52)

    I work for them now. When I did things in the past, like being on the music committee or doing stuff at the festival, that was a volunteer position. But it is a year-round, part-time position now in my role as the programming director.

    Scott (28:06)

    That is pretty rad. Where do you get funding? I know you probably get sponsors because the bracelets aren't overly expensive. And I think you have an affordability model. If people can't afford it, you have a healthy means of allowing lower-income people to get in. Is that correct?

    Lara Hope (28:14)

    They're pay what you can. It's always been a sliding-scale, pay-what-you-can model. If people can give, we'll have a suggested donation. I think it's around $100 for the whole weekend or something, and even that is really affordable. But it's literally if you have one dollar, if you have zero dollars, we let everybody in.

    The festival is not a moneymaker for us. It's really more of a community event and a vehicle for getting care to the artists. As a nonprofit organization, our money mostly comes through grants, sponsorships, donations, and we do get a little bit of money from Novo.

    It's hard. We really struggle to find ways to sustain ourselves because we don't have a way to make money. We do have the 334 space now where we're throwing shows, but it's limited. Our capacity there is limited. We don't have our own full venue, we don't have a liquor license, and we're not selling much. So we really have to rely on sponsorships, donations, and things like that.

    Scott (29:04)

    I don't see you having O+ merch up on a website that you're selling, and even if you did, merch is not always a huge moneymaker.

    Lara Hope (29:36)

    We definitely do have O+ merch on our website, and we would love people to buy it. But even that, I think we break even on our merchandise. It's more like, wear an O+ thing and walk around town and rep it. Have people ask you what that is and tell people about it.

    Scott (29:44)

    Absolutely.

    I know we had talked before and we will talk again off of this, but I turned all my Snapper's shows going forward into benefit shows. So I'm thinking sometime this summer, between May, June, or July, definitely doing a benefit show for O+ if you'd be down with it.

    Lara Hope (30:06)

    That would be so cool of you, and we would love that. We'll be there, we'll help promote, we'll support, we'll table, whatever you want. That would be great.

    Scott (30:15)

    Speaking of which, whoever runs your social media, I need to thank whoever that is because they've been sharing my benefit shows pretty frequently on your Instagram stories. If that's you, if it's someone else, thank you. I appreciate that. It's very kind.

    Lara Hope (30:26)

    It was me until recently, but in the past few months it's been this woman Liz Paradise. Her last name is actually Paradise. She's great.

    Scott (30:30)

    Well, thank you, Liz Paradise. I very much appreciate you for that. It's very kind.

    So you mentioned the storefront that does shows. I had seen something about that very briefly on Facebook. What is this show space? Is it an all ages space? How does that process work?

    Lara Hope (30:48)

    We're really just codifying the process right now since we just got the space in June. I think we've done about five shows so far. It is an all ages space. It is a nonalcoholic space. We do have a sober bar there with yerba mate and mocktails and stuff like that for purchase or donation.

    We had our first kind of sellout show recently, which gave us an idea of how many people we can actually fit in the space. It was about 70 standing, which felt good and full. Or about 35 seated, or a combination of both. That can be decided by the artist. Ticket prices are going to be decided by the artist, with a minimum of $10 a head just because we need to break even, especially because we don't have an actual bar.

    I had just been curating the shows for the past few months with people I wanted to work with or people who reached out to me directly. But in the past couple of weeks, we made a proper form you can fill out. It's opositivefestival.org/booking334, where you can submit. We also made an image that said, Now Booking 2026.

    I will say, in the past week since we started posting that, we've been inundated. That's what I'm going to do for the rest of the day today, start going through these and seeing what makes sense. Because our staff is limited and we're also in a rental space, the goal is probably two shows a month there. I need to really start sifting through these. It might be a while, but we'll do handbills ideally.

    Scott (32:27)

    I'm sure you have. Do you have your own sound person and sound system there, or does someone need to bring that in?

    Lara Hope (32:57)

    There's a sound system there. It's pretty standard. There's a subwoofer, two monitors, two speakers, and a decent board. Depending on what the show is, someone from our staff will run it. Some former staff members have run it. Our friend Mac has run it. If it's something simple, I can run it. Depending on what we book in the future, I'm sure there will be shows where we'll bring a sound engineer in. But generally, one of us will do it. We'll have a door person, we'll make a poster, we'll hang it up, we'll promote on our social media outlets, and we're doing reasonable door splits.

    Scott (33:37)

    That makes perfect sense. I tend to prefer a door split to anything else because you never quite know what a guarantee is going to be. I imagine now you've got a sound person, door person, someone to clean up, and someone to work the sober bar. You're talking at least four or five people having to be present just to make the show happen, not to mention whoever made the poster, hung the posters, and managed the booking.

    That's a fair amount of work. I say that as someone who does most of that by myself, other than having my own sound guy and my own two door people, Willie, Al, and Dez. I couldn't do it if I didn't have them helping me. I love Dez, I love all of them. I couldn't do as many shows as I do without that kind of support staff.

    Lara Hope (34:06)

    Exactly. And the other thing we can offer that's really, really important is that now if you play a show at 334 throughout the year, you get into our year-round exchange clinic, into the health clinic. It's not just from playing the festival.

    Scott (34:29)

    Wow. That is super cool. That is so rad. I'm excited. I can't wait to see what shows you have there so I can go and be supportive because you know me. I like to support as much as I can.

    I was bummed when the Keegan Ales show got canceled this last Saturday. I was all set to leave, and then I saw the post. I love both those bands. Free admission, great beer, great music, not too far from my house. I can drive there and Uber home. It was going to be glorious.

    Lara Hope (34:58)

    You're the best. You're pretty damn good.

    Me too. I was already on my way.

    Did you already know Shadow Witch, or did you find out from working there?

    Scott (35:35)

    I knew Shadow Witch from their B-minus show. Sorry to bring that up, but yeah. That's when I first saw them. Then I saw them again at O+ Fest. I talked to them and really enjoyed them as people on top of their music. And Dez loved them.

    He's the sort of sound guy where it's not even about whether it's the style of music he likes. He likes it when musicians are so good that they know exactly how to set their equipment so the sound works. He was going off on some sound thing I don't understand. I'm a drummer, not a sound guy. I'm sure it's amazing. It all sounds great to me whenever he does it, but he was like, no, they were so great, their sound, how they blend. I'm like, okay.

    Lara Hope (36:16)

    They're good friends. They're good guys. Even with the B-minus thing, I was like, bros, you're my friends, and I love them. They played again this year. Sometimes the squeaky wheel does get the grease, and in this case, I wanted to work together with them.

    Scott (36:29)

    They were great. Mama Doom did a show for me at Snugs earlier last year. They were super kind and super nice. They were going to do another show for me at Reason and Ruckus, but their singer had some sort of throat surgery, so I'm glad they're feeling better. I was excited to see them both. And Tony, of course, was going to be there, and I love Tony.

    He's such a kind person. When I started doing shows, he came up, introduced himself to me, and was like, hey. I appreciated that. I appreciate kindness.

    So there's a lot to manage. Just me managing those two shows I did was a lot. How do you manage the management of all of that? You must have a sprawling staff, but I have a feeling that it's not a sprawling staff. It's a small skeleton staff and everyone's working their tails off.

    Lara Hope (37:44)

    Yeah, we have a really small staff. We only have four full-time employees year-round. There are a couple part-timers like me. Then we do some festival hires who are specifically just working at the festival or the weeks leading up to it, to help with front of house, ticketing, and things like that.

    So we have a small but mighty staff for the festival, and then we really rely on volunteers.

    Scott (38:14)

    And you seem like you get a lot of them. I met several of them, particularly this last one.

    Lara Hope (38:22)

    Yeah, we need over 100 volunteers. Maybe it's around 150 or something to have this run smoothly. We do have a volunteer coordinator who is hired in the months leading up to the festival to help with that, outreach, training sessions, and the like. But we always need more volunteers.

    Scott (38:48)

    Is there a way for people to sign up? I'm assuming you post on social media and on your website that you're looking for volunteers.

    Lara Hope (38:55)

    Yeah, we do. I'm pretty sure there's a spot on the website all year round where you can give us your information. Especially as it gets closer, we post a lot on our social media platforms.

    If anybody wants to know what's going on with O+, I think the best way is to join our mailing list. We send out one email a month, sometimes two, that gives a rundown of what's going on. You can do that by going to our website, OPositiveFestival.org, and clicking subscribe. We're always giving reminders when we're looking for volunteers and things like that.

    Scott (39:27)

    That makes sense. Do most volunteers work all three days, or do they work one day?

    Lara Hope (39:33)

    Most people just do one four-hour shift. Then there are a handful of super volunteers who do two shifts or more, and those are the people who also get clinic access.

    Scott (39:42)

    And the four-hour shift people get access to the festival all weekend?

    Lara Hope (39:46)

    Yeah, you get access to the festival and you get a T-shirt.

    Scott (39:50)

    That sounds very much like Camp Punksylvania. It's a very similar situation. You volunteer, do a four- or eight-hour shift, and then the rest of the weekend you're free to do whatever you want.

    Lara Hope (40:01)

    Yeah, it's great. I understand that our motivation is not as much as other places because we have a sliding-scale ticket. It's not like I'm going to save $100 by volunteering. It's more like I am helping this organization and this festival go on so that myself and the rest of the community can enjoy it by giving four hours. And I also don't have to necessarily donate.

    Scott (40:09)

    You're at that intersection of music, art, and community. I would always say music and art bring community, but you're making a specific effort to bring services to underserved communities, whether it's musicians or super volunteers getting access to healthcare. So it's beyond just doing a show. It's so much more than that, which is what's amazing about it.

    Lara Hope (40:55)

    Thank you. I do want people to know that because I think a lot of people think O+ and just think, here's this one three-day festival. But we really are trying to expand and do year-round work, provide opportunities, do youth education and mural tours, and provide opportunities for creativity and care throughout the year.

    Scott (41:17)

    I know the shows at Snapper's are 21 and over, but do you bring in younger acts, like teenagers, to perform, whether artists or musicians?

    Lara Hope (41:25)

    Yeah. We had a couple of bands this year. We had the Rock Academy in 2024. We had a couple of youth bands this year that played earlier spots at Keegan's. There was one year a few years back when we did a proper youth stage outside the YWCA. That is something I would be interested in doing more of moving forward in the right spot. We do at least try to sprinkle in a few every year.

    Scott (41:54)

    Do you have fundraising events prior to the festival? Like I mentioned doing a show, but do you do specific fundraising events before O+ to raise money or awareness?

    Lara Hope (42:07)

    In past years, we've done one large music event as a fundraiser. We had Amanda Palmer a few years ago. We had Allison Russell. We had !!!. That one we paired with an art auction. But in 2025, we didn't do one just because we had too much on our plate. We try to do it, and we do a lot of tabling and stuff in the months leading up to the festival.

    Scott (42:33)

    That's where I met you, tabling in the streets.

    What would you say is the thing people can do to help the most? If anyone in the community could be helpful, would it be volunteering? Would it be coming out? If someone listens to this and they're local to the area, or even if they're far away, what could they do to be supportive of O+?

    Lara Hope (43:02)

    That's such a great question, and thank you. There are a few things, and you mentioned some of them.

    Volunteering is hugely helpful. Telling other people, whether that's people in the community, people who might want to travel here, or other bands not from the area, about who we are and what we're doing. Spreading the gospel of what this is. This might be something you're interested in attending.

    If you're a healthcare practitioner, reach out and donate your time throughout the year or at the festival because now we need that kind of support year-round since we have the year-round clinic. And I hate to say it, but donating. If you have some money, we're a nonprofit, and like every nonprofit, we're on a shoestring budget. Cash donations are always really appreciated.

    Scott (43:48)

    My wife works for a nonprofit and she's in development, so they're constantly working on grants and fundraising. I am fully aware of the cycle of fundraising and the difficulty, because there are a lot of great causes out there. Getting people to support yours, which is valuable, means you have to cut through all the noise.

    Lara Hope (44:16)

    Yeah. I'm actually having a meeting with somebody later today who participated as a visual and musical artist this year. They said to me, I still talk to a lot of people who don't really grasp what you're doing, and I have some ideas about how we can help with your messaging.

    That's something we've come up against year after year. How do we get people to understand that this is not just a party? It is a party and a community event, but our mission as a nonprofit is not to throw a party. It is to get healthcare access to artists and musicians.

    Sometimes when you're so close to something, it's hard to see it from an outside perspective. It's hard to see what you're overlooking or what you're doing wrong. So I appreciate that this person is taking time to say, here are some thoughts about what you could do differently with your messaging. Here are some things other people said to me after the festival. I'm looking forward to that conversation.

    Scott (45:12)

    Being here in Kingston, I feel like most of the people I've talked to have a pretty good understanding, but you go outside of Kingston and it gets a little bit more like either they've never heard of it, or they have no concept of what it is. They think it's a normal festival, or they think it's a blood drive. That's part of the nature of the beast. Educating people on what you do is probably essential.

    Lara Hope (45:34)

    Yeah, I get that a lot. That's definitely something we're constantly thinking about, talking about, and trying to work on.

    Scott (45:55)

    So this year is coming up. You're doing artist and musician submissions in March. Is it always October?

    Lara Hope (46:05)

    It's always October. It's always Indigenous Peoples Weekend every year. You can mark your calendar now.

    Scott (46:11)

    I will mark it. That was a hard weekend for me to do. When you all talked to me about doing it, I was like, my gosh, I already have so many shows this month. I had booked Burning Hag from Philadelphia for a three-day run, and I was going to be at all three of those shows. Then I had another show that Sunday, and Lara reached out to me, and I was like, that's another full weekend.

    I told Marni, and she was like, come on, you love O+ Fest. Suck it up and do it. And I did, and it was great. It was so much fun. It was such an honor to be part of it, and Snapper's was so happy. During your set, I had to do one in, one out. I don't know if I told you that. It was so packed. No one could get past the foosball table.

    Lara Hope (46:44)

    You killed it, and it was so great.

    I was so nervous.

    Scott (47:04)

    And I was like, but I know Lara. I was like, yeah, you work for O+. Everyone who works for O+ knows Lara. That doesn't count. Sorry. Next time be here on time. I don't know what to tell you.

    Lara Hope (47:12)

    I was nervous because I put this up against Kool Keith and Rachel Yamagata, two of the headliners. I was like, why did I do that to myself? But it worked out okay.

    Scott (47:21)

    It worked out great. All the bands had really good crowds overall. It was a super awesome experience to be part of that. I was truly honored that you asked me to do it. Thank you for that. I'm glad my wife told me I could find the time. I'll do it again. Wherever you want to put me, whether it's there or somewhere else, I am happy to help. Whatever you need. You just say, Scott, help me, and I'm like, yeah, I got you.

    What do you think are the biggest challenges of running a festival like this, besides getting the message out?

    Lara Hope (48:00)

    A challenge that I come up against year after year is that the majority of people getting booked are coming through the submission process, but we do a degree of curation to get headliners because we want to draw more people to the event.

    It is very challenging trying to book bigger names when you're basically trying to barter for healthcare and a stipend. Every year it's the same issue of, we just don't have the money that you're asking for. I feel like if you can get to the artist directly, or maybe get to their managers and really explain the mission, or if you're talking to somebody who is known for being a healthcare advocate or someone who has healthcare issues, that's the route. Or somebody with local ties.

    But if the only way you can get through to somebody is their booking agent, and they're just looking for the dollar sign, I'm sure plenty of my pitches never even get passed to the artist.

    Scott (49:05)

    I've certainly had that issue with booking agents, even for shows where I'm willing to pay. It's very difficult sometimes. I think if I could talk to the artist, the artist would agree to do it, but I have to get through the booking agent. I'm sure they get their paid cut, which is fine. I do tour booking for bands too, so I understand to a point. But you're a benefit.

    If you could get straight to the artists, sometimes they might say, yeah, we'll drive from Boston or come up from DC and play a show for a healthcare benefit and get healthcare ourselves. It seems feasible to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

    Lara Hope (49:51)

    Some people do it. Shout out to Kate Pierson of the B-52s. She came and played a couple years ago, donated her time, and brought a great band. That was wonderful. Rhett Miller of the Old 97's did it too. There are people who care, like the cause, and want to do it.

    Scott (50:11)

    I saw Rhett Miller at The Colony. That was great.

    When I moved the Snapper's shows to all benefit shows, I had people ask if I was still going to get out-of-town bands. I'm pretty sure if I have the right cause, I can get bands regionally from DC, Boston, et cetera, to drive five or six hours to play a good benefit show where they know it's going to a good cause, be a good crowd, and they're going to get fed and taken care of to a point.

    If they know it's for a benefit, I think the bands will still come.

    Lara Hope (50:54)

    Yeah, I hope you're right.

    Scott (50:56)

    So far it's been true. I've only had one or two bands say they can't play benefit shows. It's been few and far between.

    Lara Hope (51:04)

    Some people, and this has happened to me with my own music, get asked to play so many benefit shows that you just have to pick and choose which ones because you can't do them all.

    Scott (51:11)

    I think I'm on the reverse end of that, where I get asked to sponsor so many festivals because they see my name on some sponsors. Someone will ask if I want to sponsor a punk rock horror Halloween festival in some town in Ohio. I'm like, what does that mean? How much? $200? That's a lot of money for a first-time festival. I'm not made of money. I'm happy to sponsor and help something out, but I get asked probably monthly to sponsor something. I can't say yes to everything because I have to put out records and do other things. I'm not a nonprofit.

    Lara Hope (52:05)

    For sure. And you do so much for the community already, especially now that you said you're turning your shows into benefit shows. You support the community. I'm such a huge fan of what you do. You support the community so wholeheartedly.

    Scott (52:05)

    Punk rock is supposed to be community, right? Music and community are supposed to go together. I would be a poor social studies teacher if I didn't make sure the things I do support the community. Civic engagement is something I truly believe in. Whatever that looks like to you, to the audience out there, you should participate. Do more than just play music. It is great to play music, don't get me wrong, but do more than that.

    Lara Hope (52:46)

    Totally. As someone who played music full time for 10 years before the pandemic, I will say that working this job has changed things for me personally. I went from always self-promoting, where that was all I did and it was very much me, me, me, to wanting and needing to help other people and help lift up their careers.

    I feel like that's even changed my personality a little bit. It's made me a little more humble, less obnoxious, less self-centered, whatever.

    Scott (53:29)

    When you have a cause bigger than yourself, and self-promotion is exactly what you should do in a band because you want people to listen to your band and see your band, but if you can find a way to take that self-promotion and merge it with community promotion and helping other people, then that's two cups of greatness right there. It's great to help yourself, but it's also great to help others if you can.

    I've only known you for three years, but you've always seemed like a humble person who believes in their community. That's how you've always come across to me.

    Lara Hope (54:02)

    Thank you. Not to say that I was ever a dick or anything. In all my years playing music, when people ask for advice, or someone says, come talk to a group of kids who want to get into the music world, my advice is always, don't have an ego. Show up. Be nice to the sound person. Be nice to the bartender. Be nice to the booker. Be nice to the other bands. Stay and watch them. Just don't be a dick. That's it.

    Scott (54:06)

    I actually have been talking to Rock Academy about teaching a class. Not an etiquette course, but a, hey, you're in a band and you wrote some songs. What does it mean to play a show? How do you book your own shows? How do you put on your own shows? Give advice to the young kids who are starting because they don't know what they don't know, right? Someone has to guide you. I grew up in DC, where ethical behavior by bands was kind of part and parcel for the course. But I was taught very early on how you do things.

    Lara Hope (55:01)

    It was a different world back then. People interacted differently.

    Scott (55:05)

    It was a different world back then.

    But I've had bands where they come out and start packing up as soon as they're done. I'm like, you shouldn't do that. They ask why they should stay. I'm like, because you're there for more than your performance. You're there to support the larger community. If you support them, and I don't mean this as a hand-washes-the-other sort of thing, it's more of a collaborative event. These are things that you should do.

    If you do this, it's going to help you later because the scene is small and reputations matter. If you're the band that always leaves, people notice. I get it. Sometimes people have things to take care of. But usually one band member can stay and be there until the end of the night because that's what you should do.

    Lara Hope (55:47)

    Yep, 100%. Kids definitely need to hear that. And they need to be reminded that just because you get a little bit of success or a lot of success, don't let that go to your head. Don't have an ego. You might think that you're everything, and you are everything, but we're also nothing and everything in between that. Just be modest.

    Scott (56:24)

    Especially if your success is in your local town. Your local town loves you. Drive three hours away and see how they respond. You go on the road and on tour enough, and you're like, man, everyone loved us back in DC, and now we're in the middle of Iowa. You just don't know.

    It's always about being kind to the promoter, the other bands, and the sound people. Kindness goes so far. I will not book bands that I feel were unkind to my people or to me. I don't need big hugs and high fives, but I expect respect.

    Lara Hope (57:08)

    Yeah, absolutely. I really feel that from you, and that comes across as very apparent in your shows, in the work you do, and just you as a person.

    Scott (57:19)

    Thank you. You work with artists and writers. I guess all the personalities are broadly the same across the board. How hard is it to navigate all those different personalities, needs, and what they're used to? You have some small DIY people and then bigger people, and it's got to be difficult to make sure you're meeting all their needs.

    I wouldn't say egos, because sometimes they're just used to something and have been doing it so long. They are used to getting what they get and they deserve what they get. But you're not always able to supply that. Maybe you're not hand-washing their towels and drying them so they don't get white fuzzies on their face. That may just be something you can't do.

    Lara Hope (58:09)

    All we can do is try our best. We try to make everybody feel comfortable. We try to do the best we can with hospitality. We've got a green room for everyone participating. You can go there and get three meals a day the whole weekend. It's one of my favorite parts of O+.

    We really just try to make people feel comfortable as much as we can and feel appreciated, and do what we can do. We also try to set realistic expectations.

    Scott (58:41)

    Do you have anything you're looking forward to specifically for next year, or is it still too early to share or even know because you're literally just two months out from the last one?

    Lara Hope (58:56)

    These couple months after the festival, at least personally, I just try to take a breather and then get through the holiday season. Starting in January is when we'll start talking seriously about what venues we want to use, start doing outreach to headliners, and then open the submission process in March. So it's a little bit early to really know.

    Scott (59:17)

    Is there anything else you want to share that I haven't asked? You've shared a lot of amazing stuff.

    Lara Hope (59:27)

    I encourage people to check out the space at 334. In addition to having shows there, like I mentioned, there are art openings, but there are also all sorts of classes and workshops that happen there on a regular basis. Some of them are free. Some are sliding scale. Some are a low ticket price. There are yoga classes. I've been doing Glittersize, which is choreographed aerobic dance. There are Improv for Sanity classes biweekly. There are different things happening there.

    Check the calendar on the website. Join the mailing list. We encourage you to come. It's OPositiveFestival.org. There's a lot on the website, so you kind of have to look around a little bit. But follow us on socials, O+, or join our mailing list.

    Scott (1:00:07)

    Is that on the O+ website, or is there a separate website for 334?

    Okay, wonderful. I thank you so very much, Lara. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you on. I am so excited for next year's O+ Fest.

    Thank you, everyone, for listening. I'm going to put all the information in the show description, whether this is on YouTube or streaming. Please check out O+ Fest and follow them. Make sure you also like, subscribe, and follow me on whatever streaming service or YouTube channel you're watching. Go to DCxPCLive.com, and you can also watch the episode from there or follow us on Instagram if you're new to listening to the show.

    I thank you all very much. Lara, I can't thank you enough. It's been an absolute pleasure.

    Lara Hope (1:01:00)

    Thank you. The pleasure is mine. You're the best.

  • Episode 26: Chronogram Peter Aaron

    Peter Aaron

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska and metal shows. After decades in bands behind the scenes,

    I know the work it takes to keep a scene going and today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out. Today I'm talking with Peter Aaron, music editor of the Chronogram magazine and frontman of the legendary New York punk blues band, the Chrome Cranks. Peter's been deeply rooted in the underground music for decades. His writing has appeared in The Village Voice, The Boston Herald, all music, all about jazz. Back in the 80s, he was booking early shows for bands like Nirvana, The Flaming Lips, and White Zombie before they became household names.

    I first met Peter shortly after moving to the Hudson Valley at Chronogram event at The Colony in Woodstock. The meeting was brief but consequential. We immediately connected over our shared love of bands like the seminal 80s hardcore band Gang Green and Florida Legends No Fraud. I had seen No Fraud several times and even played a show with them before relocating to New York. So it felt like finding a kindred spirit in a New York scene. And beyond his work as an editor, musician and scene supporter, Peter is also an accomplished author.

    His books included his newest book, Movin' in Stereo, Ric Ocasek, The Driving Force of the Cars, The Band FAQ, If You Like the Ramones, and his collaboration on I Know Better Now with Richie Ramone showed the same deep curiosity, musical insight, and cultural excavation that define his writing. And while our focus today is on scene support, I'd be pissed not to point out that he also rips in a new punk band called the Stabbing Jabs that I really want to have come play a show someday. So I'm stoked to dig into his long history in punk rock,

    And here's he has to say about the music scene abroad and around and in the Hudson Valley. How you doing, Peter?

    Peter Aaron (02:15)

    I'm doing great. Scott, thank you so much for having me on. And we have a special guest. Misty is here with us now.

    Scott (02:21)

    Show me see Misty, where's Misty? Hey Misty, how you doing?

    Peter Aaron (02:25)

    Misty is running the scene here.

    Scott (02:28)

    Run

    in the scene. Run in the scene. So last time I saw you was actually at the Cro-Mags/Harley documentary.

    Peter Aaron (02:37)

    Yeah, boy, what a night that was, Yeah. Yeah. What an incredible movie, man. Just just I'm still, you know, it's still blown away by that movie. You just, know, I want to watch it.

    Scott (02:39)

    I was such a great night. It was so fabulous.

    I

    was like a kid sitting there in the front row with Harley just like that close and listening to you ask all those questions. Like man, this is just freaking awesome. What a great experience. How did you pull that off?

    Peter Aaron (03:04)

    Uh, you know that I you know Boy, um, I don't know it just happened. I mean that the the the Orpheum uh Asked me if I would uh, if I would do it and you know, I was Totally eager to do it. I knew he I hadn't seen the the documentary yet Uh, which is called wired for chaos When they asked me to do it, but I you know, I knew a little bit about him. Um, uh

    I knew he had a really interesting life and then after seeing the documentary I was, you know, I was all in. just, you know, was so excited to be a part of it.

    Scott (03:45)

    It was great because I had read John Joseph's book a couple years ago.

    So just hearing the other perspective of the other, you know, seminal member of the Cro-Mags it was just, it was just very fascinating. And some of the friends that I brought, they were only like tangentially aware of the Cro-Mags, whereas like I grew up getting Age of Quarrel on a tape back in 92 is one of those things that like stands out in my mind of getting that tape and going, what is this? And then he put it on and hearing, got it now. And I'm like, oh, this is, this is good stuff.

    Peter Aaron (04:20)

    Yeah, yeah, mean, that was actually was interesting for me. And I got to say that when the Chrome Cranks were happening, had kind of, you know, I was into different stuff that was going on. wasn't so into that era of hardcore. I mean, I'm a little bit older.

    than you I guess and I was kind of involved in the first wave, the initial waves of hardcore and by the late, I had an awareness of The Stimulators I knew that they were a Max's band and they were on the New York Thrash.

    cassette so i knew you know that from there and and and from hearing their single on the radio but by the time the Cro-Mags were happening i was into you know what was going on then i was into like the bottle surfers and scratch ass did and and kind of more and and pussy galore and and i just ended noibon and sonic youth kind of the more like you know kind of noise experimental kind of you know stuff that had come out of hardcore

    Scott (05:16)

    Fuck yeah.

    Peter Aaron (05:33)

    so you know it was it was interesting for me to sort of catch up and connect with the importance of of the chrome access to the to the air and that the lineage of hardcore just because some i saw them back in that time i saw one harley first started singing the first tour which was it nineteen eighty seven

    Scott (05:49)

    Yeah.

    Wow.

    Peter Aaron (05:57)

    And

    you know, yeah, and was a powerful live show, but I hadn't, you know, I didn't know the records really, you know, you know, I, you know, I'd heard them, but I hadn't really paid attention so closely, you know.

    Scott (06:03)

    Sure.

    And

    it's fascinating you say that, right? Like I do a fair amount of shows and they used to be in my younger days. I would obsess over trying to like listen to all the bands I was going to go see beforehand. And now I've really just gotten into going and seeing the show and being in the moment and not worrying about how much I'm aware of the song. And yes, I mean, it's always fun to sing along. Don't get me wrong, right? But there's something to be said about just going to a show.

    Peter Aaron (06:20)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (06:37)

    and just letting it wash over you and just feeling it in that moment and not, you know, the participation is just different. My participation is just like, I'm just soaking it in.

    Peter Aaron (06:50)

    yeah

    yet school to just you know kind of receive it with out any you know out any without any outside kind of you know kind of kind of baggager framework and and just kind of

    Accept something and first experience it on its own with no kind of attachments or anything that would influence your taking it in.

    Scott (07:21)

    Yeah, because every song is almost like a surprise that you don't know what you're going to get. Because I have no idea what's coming next. I can look at the setlist and I'm I don't know. I'm excited to see.

    Peter Aaron (07:29)

    yeah i mean it's kinda like it's kinda like

    that feeling that of revelation is something that's you know if it's really good it it it keeps you going back to their music it will whatever bands music and and listen to it over and over again and and speak pay attention to when they do something new but you'll never get back to that exact first moment with of your first experiencing it you know so the secret the secret of of what makes it good is if it there's enough of

    Scott (07:50)

    Yes.

    Exactly. Exactly.

    Peter Aaron (07:59)

    you know, sort of something that triggers a reminder of that. And there's also maybe something that's a layer that you hadn't noticed the first time through and you wouldn't have been able to, because you were taking in maybe something that's a little bit closer to the surface, you know.

    Scott (08:13)

    Yep,

    no that makes sense. So how did you get your start like, you know, being part of music? Did you grow up in New York City? Is that where you're from?

    Peter Aaron (08:21)

    I grew up in Morris County, New Jersey in a town called Montville. I was actually, know, my big bang with punk, which was the first music that I really connected with, because rock and roll before that, that I was exposed to, I sort of enjoyed, but more from a passive standpoint. It felt like...

    you know, certainly with the classic rock groups that were, you know, the generation before, it felt like big kids music still, it felt like it didn't have much to do with, with me and my life at that time. And, which would, we're talking like the late seventies and, and, and so then I, you know, I read cream magazine and I would read about some of the punk stuff that was starting to happen. But the only radio stations I knew about were the commercial stations and they weren't really playing it, you know,

    Scott (09:06)

    Sure.

    Peter Aaron (09:20)

    um but it would it would break through here and there and then and then seeing elvis castello on siren live in 1977 was my big bang yeah yeah and that was like that was kind of like okay well this guy's like totally in the camera and in your face this is the whole radio radio uh episode you know and it was just like well this guy kind of looks like a average nerdy guy like me i can relate to this and then that was sort of the gateway to like after buying his stuff the

    Scott (09:29)

    Love that we discussed that though. Yeah.

    Yep, yep.

    Yes.

    Peter Aaron (09:50)

    next week it was buying the Ramones and the pistols and The Clash and you know the Devo and The Jam and everything you know and then but then that was still like you know it wasn't accessible to me I wasn't old enough where I could go in and hang out in New York at that point but we listened to

    WNYU, my crew and I in high school, which was like, you know, two or three other guys. And that's where we started hearing the, you know, Black Flag and the Circle Jerks and the, you know, Bad Brains. And then we started sending away for the first, the discord seven inches out of the back of Trouser Press Magazine and buying those as they came out. And then, you know, we had started a band and we were trying to learn how to, you know,

    Scott (10:34)

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (10:43)

    play doing Ramones songs and then all of sudden our music had to get really fast after that. Now that was a band called Sand in the Face which was one of the first hardcore bands in New Jersey and actually we didn't even know that there were any other hardcore bands in New Jersey until we found out about like Adrenalin O.D.. heard yeah great.

    Scott (10:45)

    Yeah.

    Hahaha!

    Okay.

    I love Adrenalin O.D.. They're such a band.

    Peter Aaron (11:07)

    great band, important band. And then we found out, those guys are from New Jersey. And we started meeting other Jersey punks, but we would meet them when we went into the, we take the bus into New York city to see shows, you know? I mean, you know, I went to the record release party for the first Bad Brains cassette at CBGB. Yeah, that was what Scream and Government Issue was, it was both of their first shows in New York.

    Scott (11:18)

    Sure.

    that's amazing.

    Peter Aaron (11:36)

    And then, you know, like my high school, my junior, our junior prom night, we all told our parents we were going to the prom and we took the bus in and saw who was a Bad Brains Minor Threat and double O at Irving Plaza. And, you know, the Misfits, the record release for Walk Among Us at Irving Plaza and Dead Kennedys at the Paramount Theater on Staten Island with

    Scott (11:52)

    Wow.

    Peter Aaron (12:06)

    SSD and DOA who got added to take the place of Flipper who dropped out and and Kraut and that was the biggest show hardcore show on the East Coast at that time and then when that was like you know summer of it was like 81 and then my dad got a job in Ohio in in 1982 when I was like 16 into 17

    Scott (12:14)

    I have.

    Peter Aaron (12:35)

    And so a family moved out there. And so that, I had to leave sand in the face. And then out, but out there, when I got out there, you know, I found where the punk scene was and then started meeting people. And, and then when I went to college, I ended up going to college from 83 to 85 in Boston.

    So I was there at a really great time for live music and punk stuff. Boston had a great early punk tradition. Plus there was the hardcore, know, a lot of the Boston bands, Gang Green, you mentioned earlier. And then after two years in college, I dropped out and I got, actually between my...

    Scott (13:11)

    yeah.

    Peter Aaron (13:26)

    senior, my freshman and sophomore year at college. I was back home in Cincinnati and I played in this band Sluggo, which was the first hardcore band in Cincinnati. This is like 83, 84.

    Scott (13:40)

    Was that

    name taken from that, was it a Saturday Night Live skit with, my God, the claymation doll? like, no, Sluggo. Yes, was that from Mr. Bill? Is that why you got the name Sluggo?

    Peter Aaron (13:51)

    although it mister bill

    now on well i didn't name the band but it was on there was a comic strip classic comic strip nancy and Sluggo and i think of my might have been from there and there was also a on a s poison pellets for for part garden slugs

    Scott (14:04)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (14:16)

    Brand name called Sluggo and I think maybe it was kind of a little bit of a nod to Black Flag from that because Black Flag. Part of the double meaning was with that with their name was one was the Black Flag of anarchy and then also there was the bug poison bug spray. Yeah, so um so yeah I was in Sluggo and and. Then went then went did my sophomore year in 85 in.

    Scott (14:29)

    Sure. Yes, the broach killer. Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (14:45)

    in boston and then moved back to ohio and united and fancy and i'd started doing radio show and then through all that i got into basically got into booking shows and this was now like mid to late eighties so i booked a few different clubs in cincinnati yet you mentioned like you know nirvana per book them on the first couple tours yeah to like you know

    Scott (14:59)

    Okay.

    Fucking hell yeah!

    Peter Aaron (15:14)

    30 people in a 75 capacity room. Yeah, yeah, white zombie, the first couple tours and flaming lips. I built them up in town to be from a small club to going on to like a big, big club level. from there they just, so yeah, mean, was, was a, it was pretty amazing time. And then around that time,

    Scott (15:16)

    no, I understand. Yep.

    Yeah?

    Peter Aaron (15:43)

    In the middle of all that about 1988 I started a band called the Chrome Cranks in Who you also mentioned earlier in in in Cincinnati and then Yeah, I know good job. Good. Good. Good. That's refreshing Yeah, and then we when we moved to New York in 1992 and that's sort of when that whole that whole era started so in You know the long and short of it. That's you know

    Scott (15:52)

    Yep. I do my research.

    It's fascinating, Like all the bands you name, for the most part, were all the bands that I got into in 91 when I was 15 years old. Because in 91 there was still no internet. And I basically discovered punk rock for basically two reasons.

    I returned a Suicidal Tendencies record to the local store because my parents had bought it for me. I already owned it, so I didn't need another copy. And they gave me a Circle Jerks record and I took it home, and a recitti actually, and I put it in and I was confused. Because the songs were just so short and there weren't blazing guitar solos, there were leads. I just didn't understand it and I was just like, I'm just gonna put this aside for a second. And then I read some review.

    Peter Aaron (16:44)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (17:00)

    in some zine I had seen where it was like, oh, this band sounds like Black Flag, Black Sabbath getting fucked by Black Flag. I was like, I know Black Sabbath. Well, who the fuck is Black Flag? So I went to the local record place in Fairfax, Virginia, Record Convergence, and I grabbed the first four years. I'm like, oh, it's got the same singer from the Circus. I'm like, okay. And then I bought a bunch of Anthrax tapes off a guy and he had a bunch of Ramones tapes in there. So I was like, okay. Like, I was just getting all this and it...

    Peter Aaron (17:10)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Right, right, there we go.

    Yeah, it's all connected.

    Scott (17:30)

    It's all connected. It was at least a year before I realized that there were still active punk bands. Like I thought it was just a thing. Like, cause every band I'm like, they're broken up, they're broken up, they're broken up. was like, Dead Kennedys is broken up. Every time I could found a band, was like, they don't exist anymore. The adverts and so on and so on and so on. was like, I'll never see punk bands. guess I'm going to keep going to metal shows. And then I finally figured it out.

    Peter Aaron (17:46)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, well, that's the thing.

    Yeah, if you don't know, if you don't know the circuit and you're, you know, there's not a lot of media outlets to find out about that kind of music at the time, you know. So how else are you going to, I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, there was obviously there was some college radio stations happening.

    you know that were playing this stuff when I was in teenager but I didn't know about those stations until a little bit I mean I found out about them you know after a little bit of time but initially I was just only knew about like the commercial FM rock stations you know

    Scott (18:26)

    Yep. I had 98

    rock in Baltimore, cause I lived outside of DC. was like, that was great. You had Iron Maiden, you had Motorhead, you had Metallica. It was exactly what it was. And then there was HFS, which did like violent fems and things of that nature. Nothing I'm displeased with hearing, but it wasn't until like I discovered Bad Religion and realized they ran their own record label. was like, I'm just gonna get like, and I figured out, was like, there are bands now.

    Peter Aaron (18:36)

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (18:55)

    actively playing and I formed a band when I was 16, but I didn't know that there was going to be other bands. I literally thought like, I'm going to form this band of music that no one else is doing.

    Peter Aaron (19:05)

    Yeah, yeah, well that's, you know, that's the reason enough to do it, you know. That's a good, good place to start, you know, good incentive. Yeah.

    Scott (19:08)

    Yeah.

    So you went from booking, but then you turned into a writer. Like you're professional writer now. How did you turn your experience with music into a career that allows you to still be who you are? Because that's the dream I feel like in some ways.

    Peter Aaron (19:29)

    Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's an ongoing challenge and an ongoing evolution, I guess. But you know, I mean, did, you know, when I was really young, school age, writing was something that came easy to me. And I started doing a fanzine, you know, when I was in high school. And, you know, so I kind of, it was something that I was comfortable doing. And then after the Chrome Cranks,

    Scott (19:36)

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (19:59)

    we ended up getting back together and after after some time it passed but but we broke up in ninety seven ninety seven ninety eight and so i was just sort of like well what am i going to do now you know what can i do and it was like well i can write i know you know so i i i took some some sort of refresher college courses and i took a a copy editing and headline writing course

    Scott (20:15)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (20:28)

    And, you know, part of that was that, you know, the internet was kind of starting to become an actual thing. And there was a lot of copy being generated, but there was a lot of websites and people that needed help as far as the editing end of things. So it kind of seemed like that would be good way to get my foot in the door and also

    Scott (20:41)

    Thank

    Peter Aaron (20:55)

    also get my foot in the door at a newspaper. So I ended up getting a job at a weekly newspaper in New Jersey. I was back living in Jersey at the time, I in Bergen County. And I did that for a couple of years. And then my ex and I decided to move upstate and we bought a house in Saugerties and

    Scott (20:59)

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (21:22)

    Sort of ahead of that, you know, I kind of put my feelers out for getting a job up here and ended up getting a job as a copy editor at the Daily Freeman So I did that and I moved from the cop main copy desk over to the life section and Through there, you know the music commons that they'd had left and I ended up getting the job as music columnist

    Scott (21:33)

    Okay, yeah.

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (21:52)

    did that for a couple years and then uh... this position for assistant editor opened up at Chronogram and i ended up getting that and then uh... they've also they knew that music was my thing so they kind of rolled the music coverage into that position after a few years i started there in two thousand six so so next year will be my twentieth year at Chronogram

    Scott (22:02)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Wow,

    that's impressive.

    Peter Aaron (22:20)

    Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, it's I love it but but they ended up shuffling things around a little bit and then I became Just they eliminated the assistant editor position and divided duties up differently and then I became the arts editor So that's what I am now. I'm not I'm not I'm not just the music editor on the arts editor. So

    Scott (22:36)

    Good night.

    Peter Aaron (22:47)

    I deal with with arts in general so so yeah yeah it works out yeah so so you know so that's how how things happen and then you know then the the book stuff started to happen from there and and it goes on

    Scott (22:50)

    and art's fine.

    Yeah!

    So I want to talk to you about the Hudson Valley's Inc. You've been here 20 years and when I moved up here, like I was living in Florida for the last like 15 years. Three years ago I moved up here to get my PhD and part of my research, like I came and toured the area. I needed to make sure that there was music here.

    Peter Aaron (23:29)

    sure.

    Scott (23:30)

    And my family and I had come up on a hurricane evacuation and we'd been up, we came up here and we, and I went to a show at the Avalon Lounge in Catskills, met some people, one guy who was crazy nice Ralph, who offered to give me a ride home when I couldn't get an Uber, who might have been a bass player in a band I later joined.

    Peter Aaron (23:41)

    Yeah.

    wow.

    Scott (23:50)

    And then my wife saw the ad for the O+ Fest and I'm like, my buddy Andy and Sudamibama is playing. She's like, well, you're already coming up here later to interview at UAlbany. You might as well come up a couple of days earlier and hang out. Because she was just really like the area. So I came up here. So when I first went into Snappers and I was like, this is a punk rock bar. There should be shows here all the damn time. If there's not, it's a shame. And I'm going to make it happen. So I moved here with that purpose. So like.

    Peter Aaron (24:05)

    Yeah, yeah.

    yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (24:19)

    But when I moved here, I was told that Hudson Valley is a heavy hardcore town, the area, and like that's all you can do. And I was like, but is it? yeah, you have folky woodstock stuff and heavy hardcore. like, but what if I want to do other stuff? I bet people will come out and I'm hoping I'm right. I'm still doing it, but like, is your perspective of the Hudson? Cause I love the Hudson Valley scene. I feel more like a family here than anywhere I've ever been.

    Peter Aaron (24:28)

    Yeah.

    Sure, yeah, me too, yeah.

    Yeah, I really love it. I feel really lucky to be here. You know, one of the things that I think the thing I love about Moranning is it's so diverse. Yeah, and it also cuts, and that's one thing that really struck me when I first got here is it cuts across genres. There's a lot of people that play, they might play in punk bands, but they also play jazz, or they also play, you know,

    Scott (24:56)

    Yes!

    Yes.

    Peter Aaron (25:12)

    reggae or or noise yeah or or or or you know americana type stuff you know i mean it's and that's been in new york city you i lived in in in the east village when i was in new york in the nineties and you know with even there like the scenes are very on you know very not a lot of crossover

    Scott (25:14)

    or noise or EDM and, yeah.

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (25:37)

    You know,

    people keep kind of keep in themselves and stick within their circle of stylistic circle. There's not a lot of, know, you don't get, and that's one thing that's just like, wow, if I'd stayed there, was sort of been in this sort of like bubble and wouldn't have experienced all these other styles and, you know, cross pollination that makes whatever you're doing better and more interesting, you know.

    Scott (26:02)

    It's so

    much more interesting if you go to show and there's multiple things like, there's a Power Pop band and there's a Thrash Metal band and a Ska band. Like, I love, like I love Ska, but I'll go to like Buffalo Ska Fest or Not Croydon Fest. And it's three days of just Ska. And I love it. But at some point I'm wishing like, I need something else.

    Peter Aaron (26:21)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah,

    yeah, I'm the same way. It's like I got to have some some variety, you know, it just it would just be too boring to be in the same pocket the whole time, you know, and and it's also I mean, you know, that's what that's what keeps things interesting. And and and it's all really different ways of doing the same thing anyway. It's all different ways of expressing the same human emotions and and and qualities, you know, so.

    Scott (26:33)

    Yeah

    Peter Aaron (26:54)

    I think we're really lucky to have that here. It's interesting to say that hard because I think of, don't think of, I mean, I think especially through what you've been doing those last couple of years, you've made the hardcore strata much, stronger and broadened it. Yeah, yeah. But for a long time, I kind of thought that

    Scott (27:09)

    Thank you.

    Peter Aaron (27:16)

    I mean, obviously the area is known mainly for, I guess we'd say like probably Americana type folk based music is probably the biggest thing here. But Albany is the area that seemed to have like Albany the hardcore is strong. Like that is like, yeah, that's a fortress. mean, that's it. And it's a very much not identity that, you know, they, you know, should be proud of. it's, know, but compared to here,

    Scott (27:23)

    Yes.

    it's hard up there, yep.

    to Albany style,

    yes.

    Peter Aaron (27:45)

    Yeah,

    yeah, yeah. But compared to here, they've got it, you know, and it's close enough that you can also be part of that scene as well, you know.

    Scott (27:53)

    Yep. And

    I've done some shows up there and I've done some mixed bills and it's worked well. And I think it's more like they were talking like the Poughkeepsie, right? Like that band I said I joined, Leave It Behind, it was like literally I was in the band for three weeks and I played one of The Chance's last show. And apparently like, and I was like, I didn't know what The Chance was. I grew up in DC, but I guess it's like the DC's 930 Club, right?

    Peter Aaron (28:03)

    Mm-hmm.

    wow.

    Very comparable

    to that, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (28:20)

    And I was like, it was great. But I was like, yeah, this is where you would see sick of it all and mad ball and agnostic front and Cro mags. Like this is where, you know, and even now I do.

    Peter Aaron (28:30)

    Well, that I

    mean, there's that the back of Ramones road to ruin that picture of them was taken on the back behind the chance. Yeah. And that was Marky Ramones first show with the band. Yeah, yeah, 78. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, it's it's a long I mean, they would play there a lot. You know, but we did up like a, you know, what secret show there, Dylan did a secret show there.

    Scott (28:37)

    No shit.

    No shit! Wow.

    Peter Aaron (28:57)

    The police the famous show there was the police like in 78 your first show which is you know They played series, but they've got it there was a big snowstorm So like no one wanted the chance and there's all these people that say that they were there But there was like, you know, maybe like not even ten people at the door that night, you know So it's a big history

    Scott (29:04)

    Yeah.

    Sure. That's like the

    1995 Halloween show at the 930 Club mystery band that I got to see Nine Inch Nails at the old 930 Club in 95. And we're talking, it's a pretty small place. It's not like the places now that's like really huge that can fit like 500 people. It was like, oh, it fits 120 people tight.

    Peter Aaron (29:26)

    Wow.

    Yeah is, yes.

    Yeah, yeah, was it was the big kind of flagship venue, but it really wasn't that. mean, was not the chances of bigger room, I think. Yeah.

    Scott (29:42)

    Yeah.

    chance was always bigger. The 930 clip was always

    famous for what it did, but it wasn't huge by any stretch of the imagination.

    Peter Aaron (29:52)

    Yeah, it was the kind of where it was a good size and you could, you know, the room would look reasonably full, you know, even if it wasn't sold out. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's weird. Those weird columns. Yeah, yeah. Played there once and I remember that like that. Yeah, those columns like it was sort of distracting, you know. Well, I don't know. I shouldn't say distracting because.

    Scott (30:02)

    yeah, big cinder block columns in your way, but it's fine. Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (30:20)

    would tend to be in the moment when I do that stuff. anyway, they were there.

    Scott (30:28)

    Yep. So, but

    back to like the chance, like I know it's like an entertainment arts thing now. It is my goal to convince them to let me do some big shows there. Cause I know they're training people now to be like stage hands and lighting and sound. And I would love to like, Hey, let me bring a shower to there. That is my goal. But they have like no contact information on their website. It's like totally devoid of contact information.

    Peter Aaron (30:41)

    Right, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of

    unclear what's going on there other than that. Yeah, they want to, know, it's, it's connected to like Broadway shows and stagecraft for stage building for those.

    Scott (30:59)

    Yeah.

    because I went to their

    first opening burlesque show and I donated some money. was like, I am all about supporting the arts. My daughters are in theater. I'm all about like building pockets of sound people and lighting people. Like that's great. We need people like that because if exists, it'll help boost everything up.

    Peter Aaron (31:17)

    Yeah, Sure.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it all, it all works together.

    Scott (31:26)

    And Poughkeepsie needs some boosting because Poughkeepsie has so much potential.

    Peter Aaron (31:30)

    Yeah, I know it's it's really been confusing. It's had so many false starts and it's it's obviously got the the infrastructure and and great spaces there for that are perfect and it's very accessible being close to the throughway and the the the the Metro North and everything. It seems like with the dark side records open in the new location there, they just needed a kind of an anchor.

    Scott (31:52)

    Yep.

    Peter Aaron (31:56)

    business beyond the Bardivon to really make that area come back. There's been a lot of restaurants that have come and gone. Hopefully that will be it. Hopefully this will be.

    Scott (32:06)

    Hopefully, because

    Dark Side looks great. I went there. They're upstairs. They have a great stage area for shows. And if they do shows, and Reason and Ruckus, those amazing all-ages shows. I even did a show at King's Court with Henry Clooney from Stiff Little Fingers a couple months ago, so.

    Peter Aaron (32:13)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Alright, yeah, another one that I

    had wanted to make it down to, but stuff got in the way.

    Scott (32:28)

    It's all good. I mean,

    I think I unplugged his guitar for the last song, because I finally decided it was time for me to get on stage and sing with him, because, well, I'm the promoter, it's my right.

    Peter Aaron (32:36)

    Wow. Wow.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure he was good with that.

    Scott (32:43)

    he was. He was. was such a good time. They're one of my favorite bands. I was so beyond stoked to be like, just to see him and meet him and talk to him a little bit and just hear a little bit of his stories. It was amazing.

    Peter Aaron (32:49)

    Yeah.

    Totally.

    Yeah, well, bring him back.

    Scott (33:03)

    I will do what I can. I will do what I can. So do you book shows anymore? Because you had mentioned like, you you used to book shows. Do you do that at all anymore?

    Peter Aaron (33:05)

    Mm-hmm.

    Um, no, not really. I mean, it's interesting because I, I, you know, I, moved to, to Sagerty's in December 2003. And then I was there until like, actually it was my November, December, 2010. I moved to Hudson and I, I started moving. I started going up to Hudson because at that, there wasn't much going on there. It was still a pretty, you know, um,

    you know you know a lot of places still boarded up it's was nothing at all like it was like it is now which is very it's like a you know it's a it's a country club kind of like mall out out to our mall kinda for for you know like wealthy week-enders now a lot of it but but it was you know it there was the week and edge and it's body dog books was doing is noise shows

    Scott (34:09)

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (34:10)

    And so I was going up to those because, know, there wasn't, mean, even Snappers was doing punk shows when I first moved to town and then they stopped. And there was not, Kingston was still pretty boarded up uptown. There was this before BSP, which was a venue that we lost a couple of years ago in Kingston. And, you know, I would

    just to get out and see live music, would end up going over to Woodstock and usually it was something that was not very interesting. was some, you know, bar bands, you know, it's great people playing and it's live music and, you know, but, you know, it, it, my, my interest was not sustainable, you know, past a certain point. And I was going up to,

    Scott (34:49)

    Sure.

    Peter Aaron (35:05)

    Hudson to see these these lo-fi experimental noise shows. And, know, living in Saugerties was basically a blue collar town. There was nothing, nothing like that going on in Socrates and not even in Kingston or Woodstock. And so I was going up there and I was meeting like 24 year old kids who were into like Sonny Chirac and Ornette Coleman and stuff. And that was

    Scott (35:09)

    Okay.

    Sure, sure.

    Fascinating.

    Peter Aaron (35:31)

    That was not happen. I was like, all right, well, this is like a higher level of like cool, like deep digging, interesting people. So I ended up moving there because actually I could get a bigger place for less money. So I there for. I ended up staying. lived in that place until 2015, which is when the building got sold and I got priced out.

    Scott (35:36)

    Sure.

    Sure, okay.

    Peter Aaron (35:59)

    and I got another place up there and then I was there for a couple of years and got a chance to get some money through family to put down on a house. And with the budget I had, Hudson was like way out of my price range. I would have had to live near the strip mall or something, which I didn't, you know, didn't want to do that. And then, so I almost moved to Catskill and at that time there was nothing going on in Catskill.

    Scott (36:17)

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Peter Aaron (36:29)

    And I was like, why would I live in Catskill just to be close to Hudson? But I work at home. I can live anywhere. Um, so then I started, I didn't think I'd find any place in Kingston and I ended up finding a place in, in uptown, which was an area I didn't think I'd be able to afford. And it's 2016. Um, you know, and it's, and so it's, it's actually worked out really well. Cause it's very centrally located and you know, you're more or less the same area.

    You know?

    Scott (36:59)

    I mean,

    I basically go an hour to Albany or Troy for shows, you know, 40 minutes or whatever to Poughkeepsie, sometimes out to Middletown or whatnot because they would have shows at like Quinn's Pins or the New Clemson Brewery or out the Beacon. like, I mean, I've got to put on a couple more miles, you know, and I lived in the DC area. You know, I did drive from Baltimore and Richmond and stuff, but I just felt like I didn't drive nearly as often. I could drive like 30 minutes to a show, but.

    Peter Aaron (37:02)

    Right, yeah.

    me.

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    You gotta, up here, definitely, you definitely gotta have wheels, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, but I'm used to like, you know, when living in Cincinnati, you know, especially when I first moved to town before I started doing shows, putting on shows myself, I mean, we would drive two hours to Columbus to see a show, or we would drive, like, I remember driving three hours.

    Scott (37:32)

    You gotta have some wheels up here. It's hard. It's hard, like.

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (37:54)

    We've dropped three hours to Indianapolis. I remember driving three hours to a town called Columbus, Indiana, which is in middle of a cornfield. to see DeCroix in the basement of a church. This was a tour for the first, the cows and beers EP, their first seven inch. Yeah, it was them with...

    Scott (38:15)

    That's amazing.

    Peter Aaron (38:18)

    Mulligan and Groth, were like the legendary pioneering hardcore band from Louisville. And then the show was put on by Scott Colburn, who had a label called Gravel Voice. was in a band called The Pattern. He was in a band called Killing Children. And he was, you know, he was...

    without him there would have been nothing there you know um... you know and then he ended up moving to seattle and became a grammy winning audio engineer and had worked with the sun city girls and uh... you know a lot of a lot of cool stuff but but yes i mean you you would that's what you would do you would do you know so it's like i'm used to the long drives to see shows

    Scott (39:07)

    so like living in DC, right outside in Northern Virginia, hopped the Metro, all the shows in DC were all ages. I was going to shows, once I figured out the shows existed, I was going nonstop. 45 minute drive to Baltimore, 90 minute drive to Richmond. was just like shows were just everywhere. And everybody came to the DC area.

    Peter Aaron (39:16)

    Hmm.

    Yeah, sure.

    Scott (39:34)

    When I moved to Florida,

    my bandmates were always like, stop talking about what you've done or seen. was like, it's not my fault I grew up in a seminal hardcore area and you grew up in frigging nowhere Florida. That's not my fault.

    Peter Aaron (39:45)

    Yeah, it's,

    yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I, you know, I experienced that like growing up basically the first part of my childhood outside of New York, like talking about before. But one thing I'll say is like moving to Cincinnati and being, you know, what hit me was it being a punk somewhere like that meant more than being a punk in New York city.

    Scott (39:53)

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (40:07)

    it's like you really had to be all in and you had to make it happen and you were taking your life in your hands like walking I mean you know I mean like I said we drove through farmland and corn you know cornfields to see to see shows you know it's stopping along the way like you know you would might as well been from Mars and you know and then

    Scott (40:12)

    Yep.

    I remember on tour I played a town called Beaverdale fucking Beaverdale, Pennsylvania and

    Right outside of like Pittsburgh like an abandoned house show They did legal shows there, but there's only one stoplight The convenience store stayed open when there were shows Mothers were showing up holding their babies. I mean like you had to drive 20 minutes ago to Sheetz to get food. This is like in 2000

    Peter Aaron (40:56)

    Yeah.

    Scott (40:56)

    But those were the best shows. Like I would go on tour, I'd much rather play Harvard, Illinois, where they had the drug store with all the milkmaids for the last 50 years in the window, than drive an hour and half north to play Chicago, where there's a thousand bands playing. Like you play the small towns. think Black Flag said that, right? Like you play the shows where no one else goes, and everyone will show up because they have nothing else to do.

    Peter Aaron (40:59)

    Sure, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    sure yet one in front by no a little bit of that from from touring europe because a lot of the shows would be on you know these youth clubs that were in like you know not in it the city that was kind of again a or rural area

    and you just get there and do soundcheck and think like we're in middle of nowhere like what the fuck are we playing here for and then you know time to go on and place to be packed people will come from from miles around you know i mean and it also didn't help it didn't hurt that that you know a lot of those youth clubs in europe it's like that the you know that the

    Scott (41:46)

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (41:58)

    administrative bodies there, government's like realize that, we gotta give kids something to do or else they're gonna get into drugs and stuff like that. So we'll subsidize these youth clubs. you know, I mean, you know, obviously over here, it's a lot of like, you're on your own, you know, and then you're.

    Scott (42:16)

    Always. I toured Europe and I

    tried to bring, I saw the exact same thing. Whether it was Poland or Slovakia or Germany. It was the same thing. You're like, in the middle of nowhere, but I never had a disappointing show in like the three and a half weeks that I was there. I thought it was amazing. They fed you every night. Sometimes they fed you breakfast in the morning. I'd get French presses, have coffee with chocolates and cheese. And I'm like, what is this? Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (42:21)

    Yeah.

    yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (42:45)

    So like now I

    like, try and feed all the bands. I try and bring that idea back. But you know, when I was in, before I moved here, there was a place in Northern Virginia, a town called Vienna. There was a teen center I did shows at. But I could only do like maybe two or three a year. But they were 18 and under. But I brought like Two-Man Advantage down there to play a show. So I would have like real bands.

    Peter Aaron (43:06)

    wow, yeah, that's great.

    Scott (43:13)

    Like real quality bands, but unless you were in a band, you had to be 18 and under to get in. But I would pack the place.

    Peter Aaron (43:19)

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

    well, that's you know, I mean, it's it's, you know, I mean, that's a it's a community service besides being a service to rock and roll to, know, so need to have more of that for sure.

    Scott (43:28)

    Yeah

    I mean, that's always been my biggest thing, like the all ages venues. Like right now, off the top of my head, I can only think of three. No Fun in Troy, which I love. So great. Unicorn Bar in Kingston. I don't do that many shows there. We have to kind of align on what they would like to do, but they're very kind to me. And then Reason and Ruckus in Poughkeepsie.

    Peter Aaron (43:44)

    I love that place. Yeah, great club. Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Right, right, which I still haven't been to that one. So, yeah.

    Scott (44:02)

    you should really get out there. they're,

    cause they, cause you do the art stuff too. Cause like one of the owners, Ovid used to run an art gallery. So there's lots of art there. It's, and the owners are very kind and they use my sound guy for 90 % of their shows. So it sounds good. Dez. Dez is great. Yeah. Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (44:10)

    Okay.

    Okay, yeah, I got it. Okay, I got to get on their mailing list so I know what's up down there.

    Scott (44:24)

    But like beyond

    Peter Aaron (44:24)

    Yeah.

    Scott (44:25)

    that, like Holly from Outsider Magazine does those all ages VFW hall still shows out all the way out of New Windsor. But I'm like, man, it's hard. Like I love the snapper shows. I love doing shows at night swim, but it always kills me to not have all ages.

    Peter Aaron (44:32)

    huh.

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, when I first moved to the area, it's interesting, part of what got me interested in moving to the area was there was a venue right at the corner.

    of in in in the kingston stockade right right at the corner of wall street and front street um... i don't know what it's it was uncle willies for a little bit uh... in our incarnation of uncle willies can i what i'm sure what's in there now but it was there was a bookstore next to it and there was a place called the uptown cafe the ends uh... they were doing free jazz shows there likes you know serious

    Scott (45:17)

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (45:24)

    People they would, you know, like, just people, I don't know if you know these Julian Priester or...

    trombonist and Connie Crothers, pianist and all these serious, Rashid Baker, drummer, you know, all these like pretty serious names. And I was like very, that's kind of what I was very much into, you know, deep jazz diving at the time. And I was like, wow, this is great. And that's part of what got me interested in the area. Snappers was up this up down the block and they were doing shows.

    Fairly regularly a little bit after a little bit after this time, but then they just kind of stopped It seemed like they weren't really interested in You know, They didn't feel like it was worth their their time or whatever for a while They just were make enough money off just sort of the bar regulars that they'd you know so

    Scott (46:16)

    Yeah. Yeah. Travis just,

    when I moved here, Travis still owned the bar. He was just not interested.

    Peter Aaron (46:24)

    yeah for a little bit time as i electric frankenstein there they're greatest there was a fantastic band from warwick new york called casket architects credible fucking band band that should have been huge to me like three albums and you know i don't know they never really connected or got you know got on the right they're on altercation records which was

    Scott (46:28)

    I love electric Frankenstein.

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (46:53)

    run by this guy j t who was a bartender and at snappers and he was a comedian he's in austin texas now did a fancy called altercation but he only you know could get things to happen that's you know up to a certain level as far as the bands on its label but boy what up they were you know it was kinda like they had a

    three piece band and they had a synthesizer that a guy did a lot of bass lines on and it but it was it had a very much like a thrash metal kind of edge to it and but it was some. It was it was still like you know very like raw and like it wasn't like you know-

    Scott (47:33)

    That sounds very fascinating,

    like synthesize your thrash edge, like that sounds really interesting.

    Peter Aaron (47:38)

    Yeah, I'll try and find some links there. Man, I mean, they I don't know what they went on to do, but they they they should be some sort of like archival package on their stuff because they were ahead of their time. but that I saw the murder junkies played there. One of those later sketchy murder junkies. Well, the guitarist in my band, well, he's in the stabbing jabs with me.

    Scott (47:54)

    Yep, Yeah, yeah, I've played with the Murder Junkies, so...

    Peter Aaron (48:06)

    My current band, was also the other guitarist in the Chrome Cranks, was William Weber, who was in the last lineup of the Murder Junkies with GG Allin

    Scott (48:16)

    If it was 20

    years ago, then I played with them.

    Peter Aaron (48:20)

    it was longer than that. 30 years, something years. Yeah.

    Scott (48:21)

    Okay, there was

    some version of Murder Junkies that was on tour in the early 2000s that I played with.

    Peter Aaron (48:31)

    Yeah, I mean, I think he played with him a couple of times since then, but you know, it's, he's, know, but yeah, I mean, that was happening because he moved to New York city a little bit ahead of me in 1992. And then he answered an ad in the village voice that when they were looking for a guitar player and he showed up to the edition and he's a fantastic player. I mean, he went to Berkeley and guitar Institute technology. And so he showed up and Dee Ramone is also there to audition. Yeah.

    Scott (48:35)

    Okay.

    you

    Sure.

    That's hilarious. I love that!

    That's amazing!

    Peter Aaron (49:01)

    Yeah, and Dee Dee

    was like not near the guitar player he was, but he was Dee Dee Ramone. So they were trying to figure out having both in the band. And then after that audition, guess Dee Dee never showed up again. was kind of, know. So he was playing. So William was, and it's in that hated documentary, know, the hate, you know, hated that documentary about Gigi. So.

    Scott (49:18)

    Yeah.

    Yes, I actually have not seen

    that. I wrote a paper on GG Allen for my abnormal psychology class, you know, 30 years ago. Thank you. Thank you. He was, he was, he was, he was where I wrote my paper on. So.

    Peter Aaron (49:33)

    Perfectly appropriate. Yeah, perfectly appropriate.

    Well, I have a co-write on a GG Allin song. there was, know. Well, it wasn't the the lyrics, original lyrics and title were not were not mine, but it ended up becoming a song called Fuck Off, We Murder. Yeah, yeah, it was it was an early Chromecrank song that kind of threw aside because I, you know, we the band Chrome Cranks were kind of more of a blues

    Scott (49:45)

    Yo, shit, which one?

    that's amazing.

    Peter Aaron (50:10)

    bass like sort of no uh... and it's sort of uh... you know there was kind of more of a arty sort of experimental edge i guess you say to what we did but it was a son i felt was a cool kind of to orthodox so suit chucked it aside and then the merge on these were trying to come up with new material and william william was playing in both bands and he said how do you mind if we use this song and i was like all right well just give me credit you know so so there you go

    Scott (50:37)

    So speaking of the Chrome Cranks,

    like I mentioned to the bass player in the band that I'm working with right now, and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna be meeting up with Peter Aaron. I, yada yada yada, he's like, yeah, I met him when he was DJing. He played in the Chrome Cranks. And I'm like, okay.

    Peter Aaron (50:54)

    Wow, wow, wow. And I DJed with, well, he met something that I was DJing at, is that what?

    Scott (51:01)

    Yeah, he came up, he

    met you when you were DJing. up, was, he was at home nights you were. like, you know, he came up and approached you and you were like, you know, very personal. He's like, yeah, he's a really nice guy.

    Peter Aaron (51:11)

    yeah, you know, that's nice to hear. I try, you know. Yeah, yeah, wow.

    Scott (51:14)

    Yeah. I

    mean, that's what I think matters in the world, right? When someone can mention your name out of nowhere and someone's like, yeah, I met him once at a reason where he had no reason to like give me the time of day per se, right? Like, but his memory was like, yeah, he was super nice. I went up and talked to him while he was like spinning and he was really nice to me. So.

    Peter Aaron (51:37)

    Yeah,

    well, mean, I mean, hopefully I've evolved. know there's been points earlier in my life, you know, and during during the height of the crazy Chrome Cranks era, was like, kind of self absorbed and abrasive and on. But, you know, I've tried to become a more reflective person and and, you know, try and put the good vibes out there. But, you know.

    Scott (51:47)

    HURH

    I

    mean, you've always been very kind when I met you, so I was not surprised to hear that,

    Peter Aaron (52:06)

    Likewise, very nice. Thank you.

    Scott (52:08)

    So it's, you know,

    when you move to a new area and like I did, and you feel like you have a background when you kind of know what you're doing, it's always, you know, some of you always feel like you're proving yourself because you're coming to a new world where no one knows who you are or what you've done. And it's, you know, always nice when I feel like I'm welcomed by somebody. You always, you me feel welcome. So thank you.

    Peter Aaron (52:33)

    Yeah, well, that's, think we all need to do that as much as we can, obviously, you know, Cool.

    Scott (52:41)

    So this year,

    has there been a band that has blown your mind this year? A band that you've never seen before and you went on and you saw them and said, boom, what was that?

    Peter Aaron (52:46)

    Yes.

    Well, it was a band I haven't gotten to see, but I'm obsessed with this band from Nova Scotia, from Halifax, called the Boojums. You familiar with them? B-O-O-J-U-M-S, which I guess is, I guess it's a Lewis Carroll reference. And, you know, I wouldn't say they're reinventing the wheel, but they are...

    Scott (53:02)

    Okay, no.

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (53:22)

    are you know i guess doing doing something that is seems so so primal and and obvious in basic that it's feels like a forgotten art it's i mean it's it melodic hooky poppy punk stuff but like you know as soon as you hear the song you want to hear immediately after

    Scott (53:36)

    Okay.

    I love that.

    Peter Aaron (53:50)

    again yet

    Scott (53:50)

    I love that.

    Peter Aaron (53:51)

    yeah yeah yeah so their first album just came out self-titled first out but they kind of built themselves up by releasing you tube videos you know it will add at intervals and they're all shot in their basement on like looks like all vhs with a straight ahead camera shot the same camera angle and see you know it is very minimal and spence

    stark and it totally fits the music you know yeah

    Scott (54:21)

    All right. Well, that's not too

    far away. I'm going to reach out to them. I'm going to bring them down to play a show. Done. Done.

    Peter Aaron (54:26)

    That would be amazing, man. mean, they're

    like, they should be, they're like saviors of rock and roll for me at the moment. They're like, you know.

    Scott (54:32)

    I mean, I'm

    booking at the Colony now, so the Colony is, and I have a show coming up in June at Empire Underground in Albany. So I have two venues that are big enough for a band of what I imagine they are, so.

    Peter Aaron (54:41)

    great.

    Yeah,

    mean, don't know. You know, they're they have a really good buzz going, especially in England now. It looks like I just saw that they announced a European tour coming up. But you know, nothing in the States. I don't know. Obviously, you know.

    Scott (54:58)

    Good.

    In 24

    hours, I'm gonna reach out to them and say, hey, I was on this podcast interview with Peter Aron, yada, yada, yada, da, da, da, da, da, da. He named you as his band of 2025. I checked you out. I loved you. I've already looked at their Instagram page. I didn't mean to like look at something while we were talking, but I had to. And I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah, it's like this, this looks like my thing. They're like, oh yeah, we are influenced by Nirvana. And I gotta tell you.

    Peter Aaron (55:05)

    Alright.

    Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (55:30)

    I admit, I'm a huge Nirvana fan.

    Peter Aaron (55:33)

    I mean, yeah,

    I mean, no matter how big they got, I mean, I always loved them. I always thought they were, you know, I mean, you know, they were.

    Scott (55:40)

    Well, they were the band that made

    me like put down metal and pick up punk rock in the end, right?

    Peter Aaron (55:45)

    and

    for so many other people to you know I mean they change they changed it I mean you know people when someone a band becomes like not your little secret band anymore like it's easy to feel like you know I've seen that happen you know what am on the sniffers like you know people ragging on that but it's just like. Like buddy like they're there I mean they're for real and they write great.

    Scott (55:47)

    Yeah.

    Allow them

    to be the great band that they are.

    Peter Aaron (56:07)

    Yeah, yeah, you know, mean, you yeah, there's things that when you get to a certain level in the entertainment field, there's going to be like things that, you know, the presentation will change, blah, blah, blah, you know. But yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, even like smells like teen spirit. mean, you know, no matter how many times I heard it, I never got sick of it, you know. I mean.

    Scott (56:27)

    There was no

    reason to expect that that album was gonna be a hit. None at all. They didn't write it with expectation of it being a hit. In no way, form, it just fucking happened.

    Peter Aaron (56:31)

    No, no, I mean, I remember when that song...

    Yeah, exactly. mean, I-

    Yeah, well, I remember that, you know, what happened because we used to go to, there was a dance club that we would go to that was, you know, kind of more, you know, sort of like the wax tracks stuff, which was not really music that I was that interested in.

    but you know, it was a place to meet girls or whatever and one one week they that last song in the night they played fucking, you know, smell like teen spirit and I was like, all right, well this is this, you know, this is a levels of, you know, demographic that this song that this is

    totally feels out of place and these people are loving it they were they obviously didn't even know they were waiting for something like this so that was a key moment of like okay things have shifted things have changed here you know

    Scott (57:27)

    And there's

    only so many times in my life when I've heard a band say, this has changed everything. Right? The closest I can think of is like when I first heard Against Me. And I was like, okay, this has changed everything. I've never heard a band doing this. This is beyond phenomenal. And yes, they changed their sound as albums and albums went out and Lauren Jane Grace is different now. But I don't care what they did in that moment in time.

    Peter Aaron (57:44)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (57:57)

    how they played, what they wrote about. It mattered to me so much.

    Peter Aaron (58:00)

    Yeah, you gotta,

    yeah, yeah, it's lot of his timing for, you know, I mean, I remember when the White Stripes initially came out, I was like, you know, I liked it, but I was, I just felt like, well, this, I like this okay, but you know, this isn't like changing my world as it seems to be for other people, because it was sort of like, I've heard the Cramps, I've heard, you know, these bands that they were,

    Scott (58:23)

    Sure.

    Yes, yes,

    yes.

    Peter Aaron (58:29)

    And from what I understand, they had listened, they like the Chrome Cranks too, at least Jack White did. But it's like, hey, they're not making music for me. They're making music for people that are a few years younger than me that haven't heard the Cramps or the Stooges. And they're coming out of this like, the only thing they knew until the day before were some slick like pop music, whatever was happening then.

    Scott (58:45)

    Yep. Sure.

    Peter Aaron (58:58)

    And this is like a revelation to them. you you, you gotta let, gotta keep that in mind. And, know, and like since then, you know, got more, yeah, obviously got deeper into the white stripes music and, and, you know, understanding and appreciate and, know, more now, you know, but, that's one thing that I think with age, you come to realize that you need to afford things that space and existence, just like, you know,

    Scott (59:27)

    I get it, I was having a discussion with Dez, my sound guy, about NOFX Another band I have not listened to very frequently for years, but he still loves them. And he went, yeah, my favorite album is Heavy Petting Zoo And I was like, my God, that's why I stopped listening to them. He's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, well, this is like, those albums are okay, but I heard it all before. like, well, you only heard it all before because they did it first.

    Peter Aaron (59:52)

    Yeah, I mean, you it's like, it's like with horror-

    Scott (59:53)

    And it's okay, but

    we grew up, we're like 20 year difference between us.

    Peter Aaron (59:57)

    Sure, yeah, mean, and I know like a lot of people that were a little older than me when, know, in 1981 or whatever, when I was, know, hardcore was like taking root and I was getting so, you know, falling in love with that music. There was people that were a few years older was there, well, well, this is just like a sped up version of the Ramones or the Dead Boys, like we are, know, but it's like.

    I didn't get to experience those bands as they were happening out of nowhere like you did. So I can be part of this and this is like, the connection is different and that's gonna always be there. that's one thing I think just comes with time and staying immersed in music, that consciousness and awareness only comes with that. So hopefully, know.

    Scott (1:00:46)

    It's interesting you mentioned the

    Dead Boys, because when I think of you, I think of you in my head as a huge Dead Boys fan. It's just in my head, just from our conversations and the music that I've heard by you, I was like, if you're not a huge Dead Boys fan, then I have no idea who I am myself.

    Peter Aaron (1:00:53)

    absolutely. Yeah, yeah. mean, yeah.

    absolutely like one of my faves. You know what a great moment was I never got to see them but I interviewed for my fanzine the Lords in the New Church on their first tour in 82 and this club in Cincinnati called Bogarts that I ended up working at later on you know I sat on a couch in the dressing room

    Scott (1:01:07)

    Yes.

    Peter Aaron (1:01:32)

    squeezed in between Stiv Bators's and Brian James and Dave Churgana from Sham69 you know was their bass player and and they and interviewed for my fanzine yeah and I still have Stiv Bators's wrote out you should read these books he wrote out list of books that I should read you know science fiction yeah yeah yeah and then yeah and then I ended up I remember

    Scott (1:01:37)

    Yeah.

    That's amazing.

    Peter Aaron (1:01:59)

    the first actually the first hardcore band i saw was before that because that was before it was before i moved to cincinnati but i saw on i want to see cheetah chrome at a spot place called two plus two which was on second in houston it was a loft it was like a d i y and underground illegal venue and the opening band was the false prophets who i'd heard on on w n y u on tim tim summers noise the show

    It was originally called OI the show and then it became noise the show and that was like the first New York hardcore show So I knew the false prophets from that so we saw a flyer we were in the city my my my buddies and I and and they're opening for Cheetah Chrome so we went to that and And I've ever seen Cheetah Chrome in the in the in the wheel of the stairwell of this building and I was like, man Cheetah Chrome. Yeah

    And he's like, stick around, man, I'm better than I am on record. He was...

    Scott (1:03:01)

    And that is why I do live albums because

    so many, the best bands are better live than they are on record.

    Peter Aaron (1:03:08)

    It's definitely a very different kind of, you know, it's a different kind of presentation and performance, you know, it's yeah, yeah, totally.

    Scott (1:03:17)

    There

    are some bands, and I say this with all my love to the Lousekateers your albums are very good. But your live album that you did with me is the best thing you've ever done. And it's almost sold out, and if you don't repress it, you're crazy because you are a live band. Because some bands are live bands.

    Peter Aaron (1:03:24)

    Hmm.

    Mm.

    Yeah.

    Yeah. I mean, you gotta, you gotta, for me, gotta, you gotta have, be a live band before anything else, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's one thing to make like a studio oriented record, if you're like Brian Wilson or whatever, you know, but it's, but you know, it's like, you have to have the songs down.

    Scott (1:03:44)

    yeah, cause what's the point then?

    Peter Aaron (1:03:58)

    and they have to be lived in for a little bit before you get the best studio recordings of them. So in order to do that well, you need to, it's got to start with the performance and you know.

    Scott (1:04:09)

    I do the live albums and I've recorded bands I've never seen live before. But it's always a gamble because I'm like, I'll record you, it's free. If I like it and you like it, we'll do something with it. But sometimes, you know, I've listened to them on the thing and maybe I've watched like a 30 second clip on YouTube.

    It's hard to be a great live band.

    Peter Aaron (1:04:34)

    Yeah.

    i agree i mean you know at one thing i i you know it up well i mean obviously you know everyone has good and bad nights and you know and maybe maybe there's a certain point where they need to play out a little more before they do a little of real life record but you know it's it's i know a lot of it's a lot of bands it seems like you know they're there you know it they they need to

    I don't know, I want to tell people what to do or bands what to do, I just mean like there's a lot of them where the performances, they're kind of like, it's kind of like a, know, it's a little too casual or whatever, you know? So I think that's a fun, it's always nice when a band is like really in the moment and really doing it. I think that's just, you know.

    Scott (1:05:10)

    Yeah.

    I want to be captured. want you to, like,

    I did 36 shows this year. Figure on average I had four bands. I've vended at five festivals, played a couple shows. So I've seen a lot of bands. So you better get up there and show me something.

    Peter Aaron (1:05:39)

    Wow.

    Yeah, we know it's interesting you mentioned No Fraud before that you play with them that other guitars other guitars in the stabbing jabs Chris Donnelly who was in Sluggo the Cincinnati Hardcore Pioneering band I mentioned earlier with me Was he was in he's in No Fraud right now

    Scott (1:05:56)

    YEAH!

    I love No Fraud, but they were so great live.

    Peter Aaron (1:06:14)

    yeah

    he sent me some videos there yeah and the front man is a very entertaining dude

    Scott (1:06:22)

    Yeah, one of my former students was at the

    show, because I taught like high school and middle school, and he got his nose broken during the No Fraud show. But rather than go home, he had me fix it, and then he went back out.

    Peter Aaron (1:06:34)

    Wow! Well, that's about as punk as you can get right there, Yeah.

    Scott (1:06:37)

    That's pretty much it. was like, what happens?

    I got my nose broken and my former 10th grade teacher fixed my nose.

    Peter Aaron (1:06:45)

    at a punk show that he put on, right? Well, I mean, you know, that's, that's, you can't ask for a more complete circle of life right there.

    Scott (1:06:48)

    Yeah!

    That's it. I was like, done.

    Peter Aaron (1:06:59)

    Yeah, there you go, Right on. Sign of a good show.

    Scott (1:07:03)

    It was. I've never had mind that it was broken in a show, but...

    Peter Aaron (1:07:07)

    Yeah, I'm okay with not having had that. I sprained my ankle really bad at one and was laid up for a while, but you

    Scott (1:07:10)

    As am I.

    I'll go to the Fest out in Florida and my buddy Jason, he's a couple years older than me, it almost happens every weekend, whether it's Comeback Kid or Bane or Kill Your Idols He's like, I'm gonna go up front. I was like, you don't really wanna go up front. He's like, I'm gonna go up front. I'm like, all right, you're 53 years old, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. And he goes up front, I'm like, he's like, oh my God, I'm in so much pain. I was like, yeah, cause you're old, dude.

    Peter Aaron (1:07:28)

    Hmm.

    Yeah.

    Yeah,

    yeah.

    Scott (1:07:44)

    And there's like

    22 year old guys that are out there that are like beating the crap out of each other.

    Peter Aaron (1:07:49)

    Yeah, it's like you did your duty. You served. Thank you for your service. You don't need to prove anything anymore. So don't. No.

    Scott (1:07:54)

    I served my time!

    No, no. It's

    funny, during the main, this last fest, he sent a video and I watched the video and I was like, oh, that's when the guy jumped off the stage and need you in the face. I was like, that had to be fun. I wouldn't want to do with that. My glasses would have gotten broken.

    Peter Aaron (1:08:14)

    Well... Yeah.

    Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, you get to you get to you get to be older. You you maybe in the moment think I mean, you know, like I was in a rollover car accident once. The only thing I was thinking going through my head when it was happening was like, this is going to make my insurance rates go up. That was what that's the kind of that's the kind of thing you think about when you're older, that when you were 22, you probably wouldn't have thought about.

    Scott (1:08:29)

    Yeah.

    Yes! Right? Yeah.

    Like ten years ago, there was this band Wolf-Face doing an Avail cover set and Avail's one of my favorite bands. And it wasn't even a big stage, like three feet off the ground. And I jumped off and I did a crowd surf and then I got dropped and my back twisted. And then like, you know, that was Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Monday was Halloween. And I was struggling to take my kid trick or treating because every time I stepped on an uneven pavement, my back hurt. And I'm like, that's it. I'm done.

    Peter Aaron (1:09:05)

    Nah.

    Yeah,

    yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, quit while you're at it.

    Scott (1:09:14)

    This is it. I can go to shows, I can

    play shows, but that whole, that's done. And once I start going to the gym five days a week and like making sure that I'm in good shape, but I'm not gonna do that.

    Peter Aaron (1:09:20)

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah, well...

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, you definitely gotta, you know, you gotta take care of yourself when you, you know, to be able to still be here doing what you do, so.

    Scott (1:09:37)

    So, how about your band? I know some of you don't usually talk about bands, like, I'm asking, when can I get your band out this way to play a show?

    Peter Aaron (1:09:47)

    well, we'll see. Yeah, yeah. Well, we're kind of after, you know, doing other stuff and dealing with, you know, overall insanity, we're starting to put things back together. You know, knock on wood, we're going to do a show in Cincinnati at the end of March.

    Scott (1:09:47)

    Gonna get you on record here.

    Peter Aaron (1:10:10)

    and, our bass players in another band that's doing a tour, kind of right after that date. So, so yeah, we're, hoping to like pick it back up after that and, and, and get out this way. So, I will keep you, I will keep you in the loop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (1:10:24)

    Okay.

    I would like to hear about that, so.

    Are there any shows that were really memorable for you this year that you either just saw or wrote about?

    Peter Aaron (1:10:40)

    boy, I've seen some good ones, actually just, Marky Ramone.

    Scott (1:10:47)

    at the Bearsville Theatre, right?

    Peter Aaron (1:10:49)

    that was great yeah going to see ron carter in and Saugerties tomorrow night that bass player who daily played with miles davis he was in the sixty five quintet and yet and he's you know he's getting up there so i want to make sure i see him like and then tomorrow night after that show my friends talia zadek and chris brokaw

    Scott (1:11:01)

    Nice.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Peter Aaron (1:11:17)

    who are also in then com which was one of my favorite bands in the nineties they're both playing with their own bands at at tubbies so i'm planning to go in and so tomorrow night thursday yeah so i'm planning to go to ron carter and then go to c talian chris after that yeah yeah let me see i mean who also has seen

    Scott (1:11:28)

    Okay. Friday night you said?

    Tomorrow night, okay. Cool.

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (1:11:48)

    So the lemon twigs not long ago at the Bearsville, they were great. Yeah, mean, there's been, you know, it's been a whirlwind.

    Scott (1:11:51)

    Okay.

    I know. It's hard to keep it

    all straight. I had a blog call that I see for it it's like, oh, what's your five favorite albums of the year? was like, I don't know. I was like, there's a lot of good stuff that came out. I had to limit it down to vinyl because that's what I really consider a real release. And I mean, no disrespect to bands that release digital albums, but like, no disrespect, it's fine.

    Peter Aaron (1:12:09)

    Yeah.

    right right on and on the same way yeah yeah you know and

    back it's you know just yet yet

    Scott (1:12:27)

    I

    need a physical product in my hand. I'm not confident that Spotify will always exist or Bandcamp will always exist. And I'm past the point of buying MP3s and downloading them and losing them with my laptop or iPod dies or whatever. like, I want physical medium.

    Peter Aaron (1:12:30)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    That's the thing. Yeah,

    that's the thing. mean, I get sent, being on the journalistic side of things, I mean, get sent so much stuff and it just gets files and they just get pushed down to my inbox and forgotten about or accidentally deleted. But if I've got something physically in front of me, that's a reminder.

    Scott (1:13:08)

    Yeah, yeah, I, it's funny you say that too, cause like, I'll send records out to review to like maximum rock and roll and they still exist online and whatnot and raise your cake. But like someone's like, no, we don't want a record. You'll send us the digital download. I was like, okay, I can, but like.

    Peter Aaron (1:13:28)

    Yeah,

    mean if they're if they're if that's what they're used to and they're on top of it in that way that's great, but

    Scott (1:13:34)

    But I'd rather say,

    cause I want you to, cause like I take time to put the records together. I want you to see the whole thing. I want you to see if it's a colored record and the insert. Like I want you to experience the whole thing.

    Peter Aaron (1:13:37)

    Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole thing. mean, it's...

    Yeah, to me it's like,

    yeah, unless it's something like a physical release like that, I mean, it's great if digital is the only way to hear something, but it doesn't feel like real, somebody really went the full mile to do something unless they made the effort to somehow get out physical. But I don't mean to sound...

    Scott (1:14:08)

    Yeah!

    Peter Aaron (1:14:11)

    You know, because that's obviously it costs money to do that. You I mean, I did I did a couple of I've done a couple of these compilations for its joint release between Hosek Records and Shake It Records called We Were Living in Cincinnati and there are two volumes of early Cincinnati punk.

    Scott (1:14:26)

    Okay.

    Peter Aaron (1:14:33)

    like lost rare obscure mainly because stuff that's not really known outside of Cincinnati if even within Cincinnati some of it and there was so much stuff that I dug up that ended up having my bonus downloads that came with the records because you only have obviously you can only fit so much on it yeah so so yeah yeah yeah so so so I you know like I felt like in that case with these things like

    Scott (1:14:36)

    Rad, okay.

    Yeah, like 44 minutes basically total. 45, 46 if you stretch it the fuck out.

    Peter Aaron (1:15:03)

    you know just in order to make sure that they got they got hurt and get lost forever that was the only way to do it and and you know gets its incentive for people to buy the by the vinyl as well because then they get the bonus downloads with you know so there's situations like that where where i feel like it it's it it's definitely make sense you know

    Scott (1:15:17)

    Sure.

    Yeah, it's fascinating. Like I'll do the releases and I'll ask fans if they're going to stream my downloads. Some say yes, some say no. Like what do want? I was like, I don't care. I press vinyl records. I will use your digital downloads or your Spotify's as promotion, but it's your, it's your music. You decide how you want to present it. We've agreed to release a vinyl beyond that. What you do digitally is on you. I'm not going to do it for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do.

    Peter Aaron (1:15:39)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Sure.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:15:57)

    Every band has their own... Genesee Qua, whatever it is. And it's not on me to tell them. I'm not that kind of record label. I'm the sort of guy that's like, you do whatever you feel fits who you are. If Spotify is equal to you, then don't fucking touch it. I don't care.

    Peter Aaron (1:16:01)

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah. Right,

    right on. Yeah. Yeah. And mean, and then that's that's some, you know, that gives them an avenue that they can, you know, an outlet that they can, they can manage relatively easily on their own if they decide to do it. And, and it gives them, you know, that that so it's like, it's like bonus, like icing kind of on the cake, you know.

    Scott (1:16:34)

    Yeah, I mean

    get it. It's certainly like I'm sure if I was in high school in my band I would have put my shit up on Spotify. I've been so stoked if anybody listened to it. Right, it would have meant the world to me.

    Peter Aaron (1:16:45)

    Sure, yeah, yeah, now it's-

    Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And if that's the only way to hear something, you know, I mean, I certainly use streaming. Well, I don't use Spotify anymore, but I certainly use. mean, this is only way to hear something, you know, but I use it just to just to find out what it is and and take it from there more, you know, or else.

    Scott (1:17:07)

    Yeah, I'm

    torn up about all that. Like, you know, I've always been pretty much a anti-corporate oligarchy person, but like, it's all oligarchy. Like, Apple Music, Spotify, it is what it is. So it's like, you you bite the hand that feeds is what propaganda said. So like, you put out the music and say, the possible good from putting out radical music is

    Peter Aaron (1:17:17)

    Yeah, yeah, I mean you do what you can.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:17:35)

    more important than just not letting people hear it.

    Peter Aaron (1:17:39)

    Yeah, well obviously there's there's you know there's different there's this cube cube buzz is that co buzz or whatever that other and I've been hearing good things about this so there's there's other places to to to put your stuff out you know.

    Scott (1:17:47)

    Yes.

    Well, that's

    like, there's a website called freak scene DIY. That's like old school message boards from like 30 years ago, sort of stuff. And I'm exploring that because I'm like, you know, I use Instagram a lot, but obviously I'm not a fan of like meta or things of that nature. And, but it, but it is what it is. Right? Like I've run an online record store. I don't know that I would sell anything without social media.

    Peter Aaron (1:18:05)

    Wow.

    Yeah, I mean, you know, you do it. Yeah.

    Scott (1:18:24)

    I'd be relying purely on my distributor to sell stuff.

    Peter Aaron (1:18:24)

    Yes.

    yeah

    yeah no it's all i mean there's others all there's obviously you know great and necessary you know elements to that so in on a cd reasonably you know i mean yet i mean i'd like stuff is there is there to be used in the use in the best the best you can or whatever i'm just i'm just someone that's like i spend most my days in front of my computer

    Scott (1:18:47)

    Yep.

    Peter Aaron (1:18:55)

    so i don't want to listen to music on my computer i want to be able to go down other room and let's do it on my stereo or else or else you know i still have an older car so that you know i want to pop cd in the and i and obviously yes i like that the the to me the physical part of it the art art and that and specially liner notes in the packaging like that's all that's all important i want to have to me it's a complete experience like that you know

    Scott (1:18:58)

    Dope. Dope. Yep. Yep, exactly.

    Exactly. I still

    remember like I would sit down and I would put the CD in and I would open up the booklet and I would listen to like a propaganda song and read the lyrics along while they sang it and really absorb it both intellectually because I thought the lyrics had value and musically I would kind of listen to it once without the lyrics. I was like it was was was an experience not just like

    Peter Aaron (1:19:32)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:19:46)

    I'm going to put an alarm typing up like an email or something like that. It was, it was, there was a purpose to it. It was purpose.

    Peter Aaron (1:19:51)

    Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean,

    it's not it's it's great to hear to be able to hear something just to hear it. But it's it's way better to have, you know, some some quote unquote vehicle that is meant, you know, bespoke like product to deliver that particular music. just makes it the whole thing better, you know.

    Scott (1:20:14)

    It

    still bums me out that cars don't have CD players, because I have all these CDs that I can't listen to. It kills me. like, I have a whole bunch of cassettes too. And I have all the mix tapes that I used to make and everything like that. I used to this weird guy that I would say, okay, today is December 10th. So I'm gonna go to every 12th like CD I have.

    Peter Aaron (1:20:19)

    Me too. Cassettes too. Yeah. Cassettes.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:20:39)

    Tape and I'm gonna take the tenth song off everything and I'm gonna put it on like a mixtape and I'd make mixtapes based on the date of the day and then I take that I was like, I don't know is that good way of forcing me to like Make sure yeah, cuz I have like 400 records, you know hard it is to listen to 400 records in a year you I'm sure you do

    Peter Aaron (1:20:47)

    Now.

    Yeah, yeah.

    I've got a lot more than that, Stuff that

    Scott (1:21:02)

    And like you can't listen to them all. So the beauty that Mixtape

    Peter Aaron (1:21:03)

    you You know. Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:21:06)

    was like you could just pull stuff and have it and put it in there and.

    Peter Aaron (1:21:09)

    Yeah,

    yeah, even it's I mean, there's a lot of stuff. mean, I buy so much stuff like nonstop. It's all I and there's a lot of stuff I have that I might very well never get to listen to. And maybe that's some, you know, something psychologically unsound about that. But it's but it's in, you know, I'm surrounded by it. You know, it's in my, you know, in my physical presence and.

    it feels good to be in the middle of it and plus I'm saving it from like you know, yeah some other person who has cool taste might maybe I'm preventing them from getting it but probably a lot of times there's a lot of things that are just like gonna sit there forever and you know I'm I'm bringing them together and

    Scott (1:21:51)

    I have a

    section in front of my record player where I'm not allowed to move the records away from the record player until I've listened to the record twice. So I have like a whole area of like, this is a to be listened to. I mean, sometimes records are there for two or three months. Because I mean to be listened to. I don't mean to like put on a record and sit there and do my schoolwork. I mean, to be listened to.

    Peter Aaron (1:21:59)

    that's good. Yeah.

    I've got stuff like years going back years. Yeah.

    know, concentrate on...

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm a physical fetishist and probably so, you know, I mean, you know, it's part of it. It's important to me. It's like, it's important to save this stuff and keep it together. And, you know, so that for, you know, for the greater good and...

    Scott (1:22:25)

    Yeah.

    The greater good. Well, you had mentioned

    keeping a record, like keeping a, what did you say earlier? Like keeping a, not a discography, but like a collection. Like, cause that's what Dischord did, right? They recorded everything throughout DC. And, and I document, right? Like I used to be a history teacher. And part of the reason that I do live albums, like I want to document that moment. And even if only 15 people were there,

    Peter Aaron (1:22:54)

    Right, yeah, doc. Sure, yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:23:07)

    It mattered

    to those 15 people and I've done like 50 records in five years because I'm documenting these moments that have happened in life. And 100 years from now these records are going to still exist when I'm dead.

    Peter Aaron (1:23:16)

    Yeah, I mean like with this

    Exactly,

    yeah. mean, it's with these Cincinnati comps that I did. that stuff would have never been heard. I dug up some recordings that were never released. Bands that never released records on there. Besides, very rare singles and stuff. And there's a whole...

    Scott (1:23:41)

    Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (1:23:44)

    if i hadn't done it and i and i don't know not trying to be self aggrandizing i did it because it was important and and that's why you know if i hadn't done it that stuff would have been lost stuff would have been lost forever i mean there's there was this one band from cincinnati called mexican pig torture and they had a song called i love k-mart which is something they recorded yeah but it was a song that if they recorded it in their basement and the

    Scott (1:23:51)

    Yes!

    I remember game art, yeah?

    Peter Aaron (1:24:12)

    hardcore show on the community station played it and it became kind of a kind of a local hit within that scene but they never released it on a record and it was forgotten about and when I was putting together this comma I was like oh Mexican pig torture while I've came or it's got to be on that that's like a lost legend like some people still talk about it but it would have never come out it would have been and now like people in Japan are buying this comp

    Scott (1:24:18)

    Sure.

    Yeah!

    Peter Aaron (1:24:40)

    and people in england are buying this comp and there's you know and they're also like getting in the context of like there was this whole scene here with bands with you know divergent styles going on in this since it is not a big city obviously it's like so this all this shit would have been lost and just like it's important for people to know you know they know about la and new york and all that in london or whatever you know it's just

    Scott (1:24:53)

    Sure.

    Yeah, but in those smaller

    towns there was also shit happening.

    Peter Aaron (1:25:06)

    Yeah, and it would have been lost forever if someone doesn't put it together and present it in that way. I feel like it's important to do. It's bigger than just me doing it.

    Scott (1:25:19)

    I mean that's one

    of the reasons like I'll put out records by bands that don't tour. Yeah, they never leave their town, but their music is good.

    Peter Aaron (1:25:24)

    There you go.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of, mean, I've seen so many bands like that, that just like, you know.

    Scott (1:25:33)

    Yeah.

    For whatever reason they can't tour, band members can't tour or what not or other, and they're hometown heroes or whatever, but that record needs to be heard. And it needs to be out there in the world.

    Peter Aaron (1:25:46)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah,

    yeah. And yeah, people need to, know, people that it will hopefully, mean, part of the reason I says hopefully, you know, the idea is that it will inspire other people to pick the ball up and keep things going and put their own twist on it and pass it along to the next generation. know, I mean, that's yeah, yeah, that's why we do this shit. I mean, that's, you know, I mean, you know.

    Scott (1:26:07)

    And that is the beauty music right there.

    Yeah!

    Peter Aaron (1:26:14)

    Besides

    expressing ourselves, what we want to get our feelings out. It's also like, you know, it's doing it, like I said, for the greater good or else don't do it.

    Scott (1:26:23)

    I mentioned the kid

    who had his nose broken, he became a drummer, which I'm a drummer, and I actually put out his records with his band. So that's the whole point of life, right? It's that more people do the same thing that we're doing.

    Peter Aaron (1:26:30)

    there you go.

    Yeah, yeah, it's perfect. Yes, exactly. It's bigger than us.

    Scott (1:26:41)

    Yeah, yeah, no, it's all about the community and pushing things forward. And I'm always excited to see what the next crop of kids are gonna do and what they're gonna come up with. And I think it's really fascinating to me because when I was a kid, the music I had was, like you said, radio. Or I would like meet a buddy and I would take every tape he had and copy them. And like, you know, my dual tape deck and I would learn whatever that kid had. Yeah.

    Peter Aaron (1:27:00)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. Yeah, trade tape. The whole tape trading thing we would do,

    you know.

    Scott (1:27:12)

    But now kids like between like School of Rocks, Rock Academies and the internet like I'll go see bands and I'm like my gosh they're mixing so much stuff together that I would have never even been aware of at 19. But they're able to like follow themselves on a rabbit hole and expose themselves to a spiderweb of music.

    Peter Aaron (1:27:27)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:27:36)

    So I'm

    so excited to see, as much as I don't like digital media per se, what that digital media is going to allow these kids to create because their horizons are so much broader and expansive than mine ever was.

    Peter Aaron (1:27:42)

    Yeah, yeah, no.

    Yeah, yeah.

    absolutely i mean i think it's i think that's terrific i mean that's you know it to me someone that's younger that is learned about all this cool stuff that you know was really hard to learn about when when we were that age that's that's definite progress you know and that's you know

    Scott (1:27:56)

    Yeah.

    If you want to mix

    Queen with the Chrome Mags go right ahead. I don't know how that would work, but do it.

    Peter Aaron (1:28:12)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah, I mean, you that's and and you know, like I said, I mean, I've met being like younger, younger folks that are into like really niche out experimental like super non mainstream stuff and they and they and they learn about it at the same time as whatever, know, roughly the same time as whatever the pop stuff that's happening and then they they figure it all out. It's just like, you know, hey, I mean, that's that's an advantage. You know, I mean, that's

    Scott (1:28:25)

    Yeah.

    My youngest

    kid, she's a freshman in high school, over the summer she played me one song and was like, what is this? It's like, it's K-pop dubstep. was like, K-pop dubstep? Those are two genres that I don't listen to at all, let alone put together. But I couldn't stop listening to something. I'm so fascinated by this combination.

    Peter Aaron (1:28:52)

    It's a new one. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know.

    Yeah, no, it's it's it's I mean, hey, you know, that's that's interesting. You know, I mean, that's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. It's wild. Good, Yeah. man. It's been great, man. Thanks so much for. can get a plug in for my book.

    Scott (1:29:09)

    It's... what was it?

    I have taken up 90 minutes of your time,

    yeah, put a plug in for your book. I gotta buy your book next time I see you. Or I'll just buy it on Amazon. What's the best, what gives you more, what helps you most?

    Peter Aaron (1:29:25)

    Alright. Alright.

    In terms of buying the books, I steer people toward the local independent bookstores.

    Scott (1:29:38)

    Yeah.

    Alright,

    did I have it at the bookstore in Woodstock?

    Peter Aaron (1:29:47)

    I'm I just was told that they were ordering it so

    Scott (1:29:50)

    Alright cool. I'll

    swing by there. Rick Okcisek, I think he recorded an album by a band called The Shakedowns from DC. Their bass player Dave Elliott was one of my groomsmen and he was briefly in my band The Twats way back in the day. They were an amazing band. I thought they were going to save rock and roll but like most bands they broke up.

    Peter Aaron (1:30:00)

    Huh.

    Hmm.

    Wow, okay. Yeah, well, that happens to the best. I'll look them up. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:30:16)

    Yeah, they

    were phenomenal. They were doing that great early 2000s garage rock revival, rocket from the crypt sort of stuff, mixed with international noise conspiracy and Elvis Costello. All just rolled into one. And they were like, we are a rock and roll band. And they owned that. They had the persona. They had the stage presence. Their shows were just...

    Peter Aaron (1:30:24)

    Okay. nice, yeah.

    the- the- the

    Scott (1:30:44)

    They were just excellent. I miss them as a band. were one of those bands that I was like, yep, I was in a band with that guitarist and he kicked me out of the band, but I don't care because they're such a good band.

    Peter Aaron (1:30:55)

    yeah well there there you go yeah why did no rick cascada produced them out like yeah yet follow-up on that

    Scott (1:31:00)

    Yeah, that would have been like 2003,

    2004, I believe. So, he did a lot of stuff, I think.

    Peter Aaron (1:31:07)

    Okay, all right. Yeah, well, he, you know, he was some

    stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, know, he definitely was someone that, you know, was really into hearing new music and a lot of stuff that was maybe more challenging than people might expect if they only know him from the cars or solo records, Deep Cat. And it was a real interesting adventure to find out.

    Scott (1:31:35)

    In many ways, I

    always thought of it almost as like the Brian Wilson of the 80s. I could, yeah.

    Peter Aaron (1:31:41)

    yeah, yeah, I could see that. Yeah, yeah,

    yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely very studio oriented. Prefer that to playing live and tour.

    Scott (1:31:47)

    Yes.

    You're playing exactly right. Like I was like, he was a studio

    guy. He played live, but he really was more comfortable in the studio.

    Peter Aaron (1:31:56)

    Yeah, definitely. Yeah, he retreated more into the studio as as time went on but yeah, yeah

    Scott (1:32:01)

    So, well thank you Peter,

    thank you everyone for listening in. I will make sure that all the links, all the Peter's great stuff, whether it's his music or his books or his writing with the Chronogram, et cetera, et cetera, is all in here, but I can't thank you enough for listening and Peter, I cannot thank you enough for giving me all your time today. It's been an honor and a privilege.

    Peter Aaron (1:32:24)

    Thank you so much. I'm going to get ready to have my radio show tonight.

    Scott (1:32:28)

    We didn't even talk about that, so he's got a radio show on Woodstock Kingston radio, right?

    Peter Aaron (1:32:33)

    It's on Radio Kingston and WGXC. It's called Go Go Kitty. And it is on from midnight to 2 a.m. Wednesday night into Thursday morning. And it's Archive.

    Scott (1:32:43)

    That is an amazingly difficult

    time. I am so proud of you.

    Peter Aaron (1:32:48)

    is well i i i'm i'm a night dog anyway so you know on but it's it's archived at radio kingston dot org w g x c dot org and i have a face book page called go go kitty radio show and podcast with peter Aaron your cars there too

    Scott (1:33:05)

    I'm gonna have Peter send me all those links so that I can put them all in the show description, whether it's on YouTube, Spotify, podcast, podcast kit, whatever it is, you can get it all. So thank you, Peter, it's been a pleasure,

    Peter Aaron (1:33:16)

    Thanks so much, Scott. I'll see you around the hood. All right,

    Scott (1:33:19)

    You got it, my brother.

  • Episode 25: David Gregg

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going, and today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out.

    Today I'm hanging out with David Gregg, one of the singer-songwriters and guitarists in Sick Move. Dave is an Annapolis-based artist, father of three, and small business owner of 18 years who has been quietly shaping how our scene looks as much as how it sounds. He's created flyers, album covers, band logos, and merch designs for bands and venues all over the Baltimore area and beyond, including work for Sick Move, Meth Rats, Bootleggers and the Baptist, Doc Martens and the Flannels, Hollowed Sky, the Ottobar TV and Clipped YouTube channels, Jeremy Hayes, Avail, Dillinger Four, Baltimore Subscape, Eastern Standard Bedtime, Pig Wart, and a bunch more.

    We're going to talk about his path as an artist, how he balances family, work, art, and band life, and what it really means to keep a DIY visual identity going for a scene. So let's get into it. How you doing, Dave?

    Dave Gregg (01:34)

    Great, Scott. How are you, man?

    Scott (01:35)

    I'm fucking great. So I have that Meth Rats album. That is a, yeah, yeah. I was scrolling through your Instagram page and I was like, yeah, I picked that up actually at the Fest in Florida where I saw them. They were great. They were so fucking good.

    Dave Gregg (01:40)

    Angry Unanimous.

    did you?

    Yeah, yeah, Meth Rats are, I've known Justin for probably 20 years. Justin was one of the first musicians that I was exposed to when I crossed the bridge, because I was originally from the Eastern Shore, but when I moved over across the western shore and started going to shows over here, Justin was in a band called This Year Passed, and they were playing at Charm City Art Space. Remember that place?

    Scott (02:16)

    I used to be one of the bookers there, yeah. I was one of the OG guys with Mike Riley and all them setting that up.

    Dave Gregg (02:18)

    Thank you.

    wow. Yeah. And so I saw them plan and, and he was playing drums and he was playing keyboards and he was singing. And I remember me and Matt were there and we're just like, there's too many things. You can't do all that. He was doing it really well. And, I was like, that's not fair. Cause I can barely play guitar, you know? And, but they were awesome. You know, they're really good. And then, he, you know,

    Scott (02:37)

    Yes.

    Dave Gregg (02:52)

    I don't know that he did much and then recently came out with Meth Rats which is probably the best band name ever that I've heard.

    Scott (03:02)

    And it's

    such a Baltimore band name too. Yeah, it just fits. Like I went to college in Baltimore. I I met my wife at the Sidebar back in 2000. Like I've spent a lot of time in Baltimore. I go to shows in the Loft in the nineties. Like Meth Rats definitely fits my vision of what Baltimore has been off and on throughout life.

    Dave Gregg (03:04)

    Is it?

    What's cool about the name Meth Rats is that you, and I was telling Justin this when we were working on the album cover. I said, it doesn't matter how you write it. You read that name, you know what kind of music it is. There's not a lot of bands that can say that.

    Scott (03:37)

    Yeah, yeah.

    That's true. It's definitely like, I know it's going to be on the punk adjacent hardcore level. It's not gonna be a death metal band. It's not gonna be black metal. It's not gonna be ska. I mean, I guess it could be like a ska core band, but unlikely.

    Dave Gregg (04:00)

    Yeah, now a Sick Move could definitely be a ska band Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (04:02)

    absolutely, absolutely.

    So like Sick Move, is that basically like, Sick Move, like playing a game or something like that?

    Dave Gregg (04:11)

    I didn't know that was, I had pitched a band name from a podcast and in the line, I was really pushing for Crankbird.

    Scott (04:16)

    Mm-hmm.

    Okay, I like that.

    Dave Gregg (04:24)

    for it was from

    one in the preface of it was it's when you get in your frickin Camaro and you turn on the engine you're in a parking lot and you've got the solo for "Free Bird" cranked up and then you know you peel out and I was like that's per and then guy said you know you just that's a sick move, he said that's a Sick Move just getting Crankbird right dude that's perfect

    Scott (04:48)

    I love that, yeah.

    Dave Gregg (04:51)

    And then we went into this whole thing where like, that's too close to meth rats. And I was like, well, what are you guys talking about? They're like, well, meth rats Crankbird. I was like, all right. Yeah. And I was like, that's why then I just said, well, Sick Move. And then Matt, I was like, Oh, that's the one. I was like, I don't know, dude. Like, let's sit on it. He's like, for sure. The next day he texts everybody. He's like, I'm ready to sign on to Sick Move. Who's ready? I was like, whatever.

    Scott (04:59)

    Sure, yeah, I hear that, cause it's cranky,

    You

    Dave Gregg (05:21)

    And I didn't think we'd still be the band by now, but here we are.

    Scott (05:24)

    Band names are hard. I always

    want, I was a political science major and a social studies teacher. So I always want to like use economic terms. Like I want to use like irrational exuberance. Like I think that's just, I mean like a band that's like super fast and having a fun time. It sounds amazing. And you know, it actually relates to like over investing in the stock market and like an overabundance of like gambling and like, but like, I don't know. I never win.

    Dave Gregg (05:42)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (05:51)

    I have had that one in my back pocket forever. It's kind of like Dave with Luxury Teeth. He had that in his back pocket for thousand years. And like one day I'm gonna pull it out and someone's gonna agree. course, I'm 50 years old so my time is running out.

    Dave Gregg (05:57)

    Yeah.

    You know, Luxury Teeth, that doesn't even, as a band name, you kind of don't know what you're gonna get, I think. But then you see them and then it just makes sense. You know what I mean? Like it's just like, yeah, that's like a hardcore punk band name. You know what I mean?

    Scott (06:11)

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Sure. It's

    funny, right? Because I had to pull out one of my, my baby tooth was still in my, like a year or two ago, I still had my baby tooth. And I kept it way in the back here. It was just back there. I mean, whatever. It was down there. I didn't have a tooth underneath it. I had no reason to pull it. Then it finally started causing me a problem. So I had it yanked. And they're like, oh, do you want an implant? I was like, no, I don't need no Luxury Teeth. It's fine.

    Dave Gregg (06:30)

    Which one?

    Really?

    Yeah.

    Scott (06:49)

    Was it going to co what's going to happen to me in the next 20 years of my life? Having a very small gap all the way in the back there.

    Dave Gregg (06:53)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. Did you hear we covered Luxury Teeth when we played with Luxury Teeth?

    Scott (07:02)

    I love that.

    Dave Gregg (07:04)

    I think we did pretty

    good too. And we, cause we've been playing with Luxury Teeth a lot. I was like, dude, we got to keep this entertaining not only for us, but for them. We really loved those guys. So we don't want them to get sick of us. I was like, let's play one of their songs, you know? And, I think Dave told me after he was like, I thought that you guys were just joking. And then you guys played the entire song Luxury Teeth by Luxury Teeth. Like, yeah, why not?

    Scott (07:08)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    I meant

    Yeah. Well,

    Sean was in Die Cheerleader Die with Marnie and the first date I ever went on with Marnie was to go to Nation to see the The Homeowners. And I proposed to her at the last The Homeowners show at the Sidebar. So, you know, yeah, yeah. I had no ring. I was not prepared to do that. Jason from the Gamma Rays told me it was a good idea, so I did it.

    Dave Gregg (07:49)

    really?

    Dude, that's awesome. How romantic.

    Scott (07:59)

    20 years later

    I'm married, so I guess it was good idea. It worked.

    Dave Gregg (08:02)

    It works.

    The Homeowners are great too. that's something that I was not, I found that that was like a four way split or three way split with bands.

    Scott (08:12)

    Yeah, there

    was this split with them in VPR and like two other bands. And then I have a bunch of their demo CDRs as well that were really good.

    Dave Gregg (08:17)

    Yeah.

    And that's a really good split. I put that on and I was like, oh, like The Homeowners are awesome. And when were they active?

    Scott (08:22)

    Yeah.

    They were great. They were great.

    I would say they were active in the early two thousands, but Dave didn't join the band probably until three four. And that's when they really took off having the dual vocalists and playing off of each other. That like is what really made it super special. It was like, that was that era. Like there was the band, the AKs from DC that also had the two vocalists. And then like there was Blind Society in New Jersey and like It Takes All Kinds from Binghamton.

    Dave Gregg (08:45)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (08:59)

    There was that just that time period from like 01 to 03 where there was like these bands that were like doing the double lead vocals and they would finish each other's verses and switch every other word and do all these vocal acrobatics and they didn't play any instruments. They just sang and I was like, oh, it was fucking, if you did it well, it was fucking amazing. And especially if you had just enough difference in your vocals that it like accented the styles. I'm like, oh, so good.

    Dave Gregg (09:19)

    Yeah.

    So that's kind

    of like those metalcore bands where one guy would be clean and the other guy would be...

    Scott (09:32)

    Yeah, except they didn't do like

    clean or whatever. were both still punk rock style. No, no, yeah, I don't listen to a lot of metalcore. There was a band I was trying to play with and we were at a Bad Religion cover band originally and then we started to try and write original songs and the first song was metalcore and I was like, I'm not digging this. And he's like, oh, it's like Every Time I Die I was like, I've heard of the band but I never listened to them. And I went home and listened to it and on the way home and I was like, I can't be in this band that this is what we're gonna sound like.

    Dave Gregg (09:36)

    Yeah, so it didn't suck, you know.

    Scott (10:01)

    All right, no disrespect. It's not my thing. I don't want to play that.

    Dave Gregg (10:05)

    Yeah.

    No. And you know, it's funny when Matt and I moved over here from the Eastern shore. And I know it's, an hour away, but this is back in like 2003. we got over here and metal core and like that whole emo thing was like blowing up. Like that's how, you know, people were at the shows and we were a straight like street punk band from like Easton. And when we got over here, I think we thought that that's what punk had become because it's like.

    Scott (10:15)

    Yeah.

    yeah.

    Dave Gregg (10:35)

    We didn't have a scene over on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. We had me, Matt, Hunter, Kevin, and some of their girlfriends. That was our scene. That was the extent of it. We're talking maybe 10 people tops. So when we come over here and we see a bunch of people, we just kind of thought that that's what had become of punk and that was the new thing. And we're kind of like, I mean, I guess. Yeah.

    Scott (10:38)

    Sure.

    Yeah, like coheated Cambria and all that. Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (11:03)

    I

    like, I was like, isn't there some bands doing some like, you know, whatever happened to like the Rancids and the NOFX's And of course they're still putting stuff out, but like, I don't know, whatever.

    Scott (11:06)

    No, no.

    Yeah. I mean,

    I was, did you ever see, did you ever see The Overprivileged or The Twats Yeah. So, no.

    Dave Gregg (11:19)

    Mm-hmm. No, but Sean's my grocer. Sean's my Trader

    Joe's guy. So I talked to him all the time and he was telling me a little about The Overprivileged

    Scott (11:28)

    Yeah, we do like 30 songs in 30 minutes. It was definitely not fancy stuff. So like our first album was 30. Yeah. But we were there. We were 99 to 2004. And then The Twats was 04 to 08. But like The Twats only played Maryland or DC once a month because we we played, we toured a lot and we did a lot of weekend runs. Like we were determined to be on the road all the time.

    Dave Gregg (11:33)

    See, we were in the wrong scene. Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (11:55)

    So we didn't play locally very often because we were trying to be on the road instead.

    Dave Gregg (12:01)

    Didn't you guys have a limo?

    Scott (12:02)

    We did, The Overprivileged had a used limousine, yeah. Like a disaster. It was something. So when Dan bought it, it was a nice silver limo, and then we were going on tour to Canada and we played a show with Two Man Advantage at the Sidebar. And while we were playing, Two Man Advantage spray painted it with Fuck, Canada, we hate hockey, what's that a boot?

    Dave Gregg (12:08)

    That's awesome. Can you drive that around?

    Scott (12:31)

    and all sorts of other like anti-Canadian slurs. So we looked at it and laughed, got this paint off the headlights so we could drive and we headed out west because we were coming up through Michigan because our record label was in Toronto. And we made it all the way through to Michigan and we said, you know what? They may not let us across the border with our limo looking like this. We're 20 something, so we're geniuses. We go to like a Hechinger Home Depot, Lowe's, whatever the fuck it was.

    and we get a bunch of purple house paint and gold house paint and some rollers and we paint it purple with a gold racing stripe.

    Dave Gregg (13:07)

    Cool.

    Scott (13:08)

    And we got it into Canada.

    Dave Gregg (13:12)

    See if it was me, dude, I would have been like purple with a gold lightning bolt.

    Scott (13:18)

    I mean it was a crooked it was not it was not even so we did it from the hood to the roof to all the the back and It was fine, but we we we rocked that for Forever, I think Dan eventually sold it to someone there was a brief period of time where I was taking high school punk rock kids I'm on prom dates where that was getting paid money to drive people around Yeah, I was using it to rake in that extra cash these kids would come to the all-ages shows at the Royal Lee in Arlington

    Dave Gregg (13:38)

    Really?

    Dude, that's awesome.

    Scott (13:47)

    and I would meet them and I'm like, yeah, you want to like throw me 300 bucks? I will take you on a prom date.

    Dave Gregg (13:54)

    Hell yes. Where's that limo now?

    Scott (13:59)

    He sold it to a real limo service at some point Yeah, so it was actually being used by someone. I don't know so it's just gone now And then any other band I've ever been in it has had like a standard van like the overprivilege had like an e 150 oh now The Twats I mean and then we sold that to Sean's other band the The Revelevens and When I was in Florida my band had like my Kia Carnival

    Dave Gregg (14:02)

    really?

    Scott (14:24)

    you everyone had to like lower themselves down from full half stacks with heads to like, you know, smaller combo amps that we could like get in there. So, but it did the job. did the job.

    Dave Gregg (14:30)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah.

    forget those cabinets like I have a four by 12 cabinet and I never used to take it to shows but now I'd have to and Matt was fine like dude I'm done like I can I even told him I was like dude if you want me to play in this band I can't like I got three kids you know like you're gonna have to like carry a little extra weight so I can get to these shows on time and like do everything and he was doing he's like I'm fucking done dude I'm

    Scott (15:06)

    Well,

    after you played the Rally in the Valley I realized that I needed to own my own back line if I was going to keep promoting shows there. There wasn't enough space for the bands, to store equipment and changeovers were taking longer than I wanted. So there's a band I manage called WORLDSUCKS and their drummer, Nick, he sold me two 4 X 12 Peavy cabs and a 2 x 15 Yamaha for just 500 bucks.

    Dave Gregg (15:06)

    Okay.

    Nice.

    Scott (15:31)

    So I use those now. And I have my own drum set as a drummer. So I tell bands I have a full back line. But I do ask bands if they can bring something because I honestly don't want to load my van of everything and load it out by myself because why would I want to do that?

    Dave Gregg (15:37)

    That's awesome.

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, that sucks.

    Scott (15:48)

    But I have it if I need to. like bringing New York City bands especially who like, you know, often don't want to bring all their stuff down four floors of like practice space stuff or whatever. you're like, you know, they can, you know, there were some bands that have to rent cars to come. They can rent a smaller car if they don't need to bring a lot of equipment. So.

    Dave Gregg (15:50)

    Mm-hmm.

    Thank you.

    For sure.

    Yeah, I think on Rally in the Valley, we all drive separately to every show. Because we all come from, we come from Bob's north of Baltimore, Matt's in Catonsville, I'm in Annapolis, Dan's in Baltimore somewhere. But like when we went up to Punk Island, I drove with Dan, and when we did Rally in the Valley, me and Bob carpooled. I picked Bob up on the way.

    Scott (16:13)

    That's insane.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, when I was over the Overprivileged, even when I lived in DC and Maryland, we still met up at the practice space in Fairfax, even if we were playing Baltimore, and rode in together. was just, I the practice space was my parents' house, so least I could come back there afterwards and sleep at my parents' house if I needed to. But there was something about like, you know, those two guys were like my best friends since I was 16, so it's like, it's not even about doing the show, it's about being together.

    Dave Gregg (16:40)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (16:59)

    Like

    we're less of a band and more of three morons that are like playing music that we like and if other people like it, that's great. But if not, we're going to keep doing it sort of thing.

    Dave Gregg (17:08)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. Same over here too. I just think our issue is we all listen to different audio books. Not me and Matt. Me and Matt are on the same pick, but yeah.

    Scott (17:14)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah. When

    we got to with The Twats of XM radio. And our guitarist, Nick, always wanted to listen to comedy. And I'm like, it's fine. I would just get bored of it. So I'm more of a listen to music person. There weren't audio books back then when I was doing it. But let's get on to the art. I want to talk about your art. That's what we're actually here for. We're not just hanging out at the bar having a beer all the way. I could do that with you all day long. So like.

    Dave Gregg (17:23)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    yeah.

    yeah.

    Scott (17:45)

    Your art, mean, just to talk about my own album that you did, like the DCxPC album, it's fabulous. The fact that you got so many people from the show and you got them so well done. I always hesitate to let bands do art on the albums because either A, it's either not good, takes forever, or it's like not of the quality where I'm not getting rejections from the pressing plant for saying it's pixelated. Your shit was fucking sick. It hit everything. It was like, okay.

    This was worth everything. Like, I'm glad I let you do that.

    Dave Gregg (18:17)

    Oh man, I'm relieved to hear you say that because that was, I had a lot of stress doing that because I knew, you know, I knew going into it that you really liked to do plain covers and stuff like that. And I knew that I felt like I wanted it to sell well for you. I knew that. What?

    Scott (18:41)

    Oh, it's done great. We're down to like 15 left.

    We're down to 15 left, so it's doing great. Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (18:47)

    You have 15 left.

    Really?

    Scott (18:51)

    Yeah, I don't know how many you have left.

    Dave Gregg (18:53)

    I don't know, that's not my job.

    Scott (18:55)

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    Dave Gregg (18:57)

    I do the cover, that's not my job.

    Scott (18:58)

    Yeah, I mean,

    I just shipped off 10 more to my distributor. They ordered 10 more last week. So that leads to like 15 on hand.

    Dave Gregg (19:02)

    Okay.

    That makes me feel so good. yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah, that was a lot of work. I had to find pictures of people that were there.

    Scott (19:15)

    yeah, I could tell like the amount of work in detail and it was so awesome that John Waters was there. So you would have put him on the top. Like that was fucking hilarious.

    Dave Gregg (19:21)

    I know.

    I know. And I was like, I was just gonna put him in the back. And I was like, nah, you know, you make him like center. And I was like, and I really love Sean Carey's art, who's the artist for, you know, she was the artist for, did a lot of Circle Jerks stuff. I mean, their art's unbelievable. It's so good.

    Scott (19:31)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, that circle jerk skanky

    dude, like, I have wanted that as a tattoo so much in my life.

    Dave Gregg (19:51)

    Do it. There's so many, there's so many good renditions of it now. Like, I mean, obviously you want to get the John Waters one. I'll send it to you. Yes. Yes. Cause you're from, dude, you will be the first person to ever get a Dave Gregg tattoo.

    Scott (19:55)

    Yeah.

    I should get, yes, I will, I will. Send it to me, I will get that one.

    Well that's, you should get more Dave Gregg tattoos. I mean, your work is really good. So is that your full-time job or are you a graphic artist full-time? No.

    Dave Gregg (20:12)

    Yeah, thanks.

    No, no, no. I'm a...

    Well, I take care of my kids a lot, but I also have a business that I've been doing for past 18 years. So I do headlights on cars. You know, when headlights get shitty, that's... Yeah, so I go around to dealerships and I clear up headlights. I go out to people's houses and that's a whole service. It's called a Headlight Doc.

    Scott (20:29)

    Okay.

    Yeah.

    Alright, that

    sounds like real like finding a niche that needs to be filled and filling it in a way that allows you to also do the stuff you want to do and be, you know.

    Dave Gregg (20:49)

    I do so much of

    the stuff that I want to do to a fault, you know what I mean? But like, I won't ever say that I'm the best guitarist, far from the best guitarist, far from the best vocalist, far from the best artist, but I am the fucking Walter White of headlights. Like, I can take your headlights from god awful to like, you would not even know that there was an issue with the headlights. I'm that good, I'm so good at it. But I've been doing it for 18 years.

    Scott (20:53)

    Yes. Yeah.

    Ha ha ha!

    Sure.

    Dave Gregg (21:20)

    I'm, you know, it, but it's not my passion. It's not my love. Obviously it just pays. But it allows me to like, I can make in two, three hours what I would make doing a full album for a band. And that would take me like, I just did an album and it took me about like 25 hours.

    Scott (21:26)

    Obviously.

    Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. Like, I mean, I look at your work, it's detailed. It's not in the vein of Alex Fine. You know Alex Fine?

    Dave Gregg (21:54)

    Is he from Baltimore? Okay, is he like a Time Magazine guy?

    Scott (21:55)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, he does Time Magazine and the City Paper and stuff, but like 25 years ago, he did album covers and flyers.

    Dave Gregg (22:07)

    yeah.

    Scott (22:09)

    He was that guy. Like he would do the flyers for Overprivileged shows and Twats shows and The Homeowners shows and, and Goons shows. And he did The Twats album cover and t-shirt designs. Like he was just that guy. And like, and then all of a sudden he like, you know, he needed to The Golden Girls coloring book and NSYNC coloring book and Time Magazine and the Atlantic and all this stuff. But like, yeah, he did the Golden Girls coloring book.

    Dave Gregg (22:14)

    really?

    You said a Golden Girls coloring book?

    Yeah.

    Scott (22:37)

    He was the first person that I let like go crazy with the album cover and it took him a year.

    I was like, but I couldn't say no. He was like, hey, I really want to do the album cover. It was a benefit album for the singer of his band, The Ratchet Boys who had passed away from cancer. And I'm like, this special album and Alex Fine wants to do the art. What am I gonna say? I'm not gonna say no, but it took a year, easily a year. And I was like, this is why I do simple album covers.

    Dave Gregg (23:09)

    Yeah.

    And that, that makes sense for sure. just, you know, yeah.

    Scott (23:16)

    because I was like, I appreciate it. I love the good art,

    but you know, people have real jobs and when you're doing something for someone for free or for a low cost, we get put aside.

    Dave Gregg (23:29)

    Yes. And I don't charge a lot for when I do stuff because I, well, I'm starting to get better about that. And, you know, and I'm, I'm starting to get better with how much time it's actually going to take me. I've got my process down. I've got, and I also factor in like how crazy my life is. Like it's Christmas time. Like I've got projects that, you know, people are kind of waiting on me for. I'm like, look, you're going to have to just give me a little bit.

    Scott (23:49)

    Sure.

    Dave Gregg (23:58)

    but also not charging people a lot. They don't expect a lot. I always try to over deliver when I do a project for somebody.

    Scott (24:06)

    I did 36 shows last year that I had to have flyers made for. So I have four or five artists that I work with because you can't go around saying, oh, I have five shows this month. Do all the art, all the flyers.

    because they do stuff for other people too. I'm like, I'm not their only person. So I try and spread it around. And every now and then I made flyers myself and my make flyers are usually pretty shitty. I just take an X-Men cover and run it through Canva and bada bing bada boom, there it is, it's done. But sometimes it's what I had to do because none of my artists were available and they generally charge 30 to $50 depending on the artist. And there are some times, to be perfectly honest, I didn't have the extra cash.

    Dave Gregg (24:38)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I mean, if you get into a situation like that, just hit me up. And I can't promise that I would do it. I could do it. It all depends on, but there's some times where I have nothing to do. I'm like going crazy. And I'm like, I just need something to like pull me out of a funk. Like I gotta have a, like I gotta have a mission. And once I do that, you know, like it's always like a, like a puzzle. That's the way I look at it.

    Scott (24:55)

    Yeah.

    Bop.

    Dave Gregg (25:20)

    And if it's I'm working for a band or if I'm doing a flyer or something like that, it's a puzzle and you just got to make it work. And then there's no way of saying that now it's solved. What I know it when it's solved. Does that make sense? Like.

    Scott (25:35)

    No, absolutely.

    So like last year for the Rally in the Valley I had two separate artists. I had one person that did like the posters and the frames and the banner and another guy that did the t-shirts. This year I'm gonna try and find one person that does the whole cohesive thing and I'm much more ahead. Last year I didn't even start planning it until December because the idea came to me in December.

    This year I've been planning in it since like August and I'm not repeating any bands this year. So, but like I want to find an artist that will do the whole kit and kaboodle so it's got a nice synthesis. Like.

    Dave Gregg (26:13)

    Well, so talk about that synthesis. It did. It did. was really cohesive. was branded really, really well. And the flyer for it, looked pro. It was super pro. So quick little story about Punk Island. Matt saw the call for redesigning the Punk Island logo.

    Scott (26:17)

    Yeah. Thank you.

    Thank you.

    Thank you.

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Dave Gregg (26:44)

    and this

    was years ago before we even really started getting going. And he sent it to me because...

    people will reach out and say, we're having a contest, like, design us a new logo and kind of stuff. Not understanding what Punk Island was, or was about, hadn't played it, hadn't heard of it. And I look at what they already had and I said, okay, I get it. So you guys just want somebody to do this for free, right?

    Scott (27:14)

    Hahaha!

    Dave Gregg (27:17)

    Right? you're like this corporate thing because of the way that the graphics and so I was like, I'm not doing it. Forget that. Right. And then you come to realize what Punk Island actually is. And you're like, that graphic design, that design that you guys had made me think that this was like some massive, like I could see sponsors next to like the names of however they had it, right? However they had done Punk Island before and that won't, you know, I'm rocking it right now. Now this

    Scott (27:27)

    Yes.

    Dave Gregg (27:46)

    Right? That, you put that up and say, we're doing our casting call for, you know, we're accepting submissions for like a new punk. I'd be like, okay. I get it. This is DIY. and it's a great event. It just, it just cracked me up because that's the power of how design can change somebody's perception on something.

    Scott (27:47)

    Yes, exactly.

    Yes.

    And it'd be interesting what year that was too because Punk Island went through significant transitions and the earlier, and I say this without having been present in the earlier part, but from what I've heard, there was a lot more grant money being offered and money being spent. So my guess is it probably went towards more pro versus DIY punk rock graphic artists. Whereas now,

    it runs a much more bare bones operations. So it kind of fits the ethos more where I think it started, but there was at some point, there was a brief period of year where they had gotten grant money that allowed them to take it probably too far. And they overspent money and then, well, know, now they don't have that money anymore.

    Dave Gregg (28:54)

    okay.

    Yeah, it's just but you know, that's the thing right like in your Rally in the Valley thing like I mean that looked like a tight organized thing and it was we got up there and it was tight it was organized it was a blast and we all had fun we had all had a great time playing it and

    Scott (29:11)

    Thank you.

    That was Christian from Skapository He did that for me for free too, which is crazy kind of him. He did all of that work for free. Yeah. It was so well done. I just feel bad. like I'm not, his band is in the middle of no, I don't know where his band is right now. Like I, know, at least he was playing it before. I don't like asking people for free work, but I would pay him if he wanted to be paid because he did such a great job. And then the t-shirt idea was a different guy. He, uh,

    Dave Gregg (29:22)

    Dude, hit him up again. That guy's great.

    Scott (29:46)

    but I sent him what we already had designed. I said, can you work with this and try and stay within the same, you know, idea? So.

    Dave Gregg (29:55)

    Yeah The

    mountains and the yeah, so we're playing a Show that I was telling you about with Luxury Teeth I'd get the merch because for some reason I wind up with the merch that's always a bad thing because when Matt me and Matt I end up with the merch we end up just like giving stuff away and then we get into And we're like guys like we don't have any t-shirts I'm like, I don't know what happened like me and Matt

    Scott (30:03)

    Mm-hmm.

    no, no no no.

    Dave Gregg (30:24)

    And but so I go through the merch and at the bottom of the thing I said, well, what's this t-shirt? I pulled it up. It's a Rally in the Valley t-shirt that I bought Bob because there were like what 10 bucks or something. I was like, give him, give us two shirts. And I was like, well, I'm so glad you liked the t-shirt that I got for you, Bob. And he's like, like, it's still got the tape on it, Come on.

    Scott (30:34)

    Yeah!

    Yeah.

    I I always only sell my shirts for 10 bucks and people are like, why? was like, what, I could sell it for 20 and what, make $8 profit or I can sell for 10, not have to worry about change and then hopefully you're gonna wear it because you're coming to me because you want to. And I'm much more about that. Like it gets down to a certain point of like, what is my goal exactly? Right?

    Like my goal is for you to wear the fucking shirt and have people see the shirt. Cause I remember going back in the nineties, I'd go to shows at like The Nation or back then it was Capitol Ballroom And I'd be like, huh, look at these t-shirts that I see. There must've been a show that came through town that I didn't know about, but I see a half dozen people wearing t-shirts of some band. They must be the next band I should go check out. Right? Like huge. It's so much of how we...

    Dave Gregg (31:27)

    Mm-hmm.

    T-shirts are huge.

    Scott (31:44)

    pre-internet especially that I would learn about bands. I would see someone's T-shirts like liner notes and T-shirts and stickers. Yeah!

    Dave Gregg (31:47)

    Yeah.

    But see, that's still going on. That's still

    going on. Dude, I obsess about what makes a good band t-shirt. I obsess about what

    Scott (31:58)

    I know. think

    we had a conversation. You were like black on white. Because I have two of your t-shirts. I have the intrusion one. Intrusive Thoughts But also just a Sick Move with the little patch on the back. Yeah. Because you were like, you were telling me I should get rid of the red and make it black, white instead.

    Dave Gregg (32:07)

    Yeah.

    Or do you? Nice. Yeah, that was like.

    I I don't know, I like that for some reason. And I still wanna do that hoodie. I know you and I talked about doing a hoodie and I was like, I had started sketching it out. I was like, dude, I really wanna do this. And I know what it would be. It would have to be you.

    Scott (32:27)

    yeah.

    That's crazy. Why me?

    Dave Gregg (32:38)

    because you are DCxPC. You'd have to be like the mascot. You'd be like the Milo for DCxPC. It's no-brainer. People love you and they support DCxPC because you're you and they like the bands and you're also like a big mascot for the whole thing. That's you. So it has to be you. It can't be anything but you.

    Scott (32:45)

    Okay, see, okay, that like, I have to show you something then.

    Okay,

    and like, so I'm gonna show you this picture and I'm gonna share the screen and show this with you because my old bass player just did this for a poster for a show, but then he also just sent me just the image as well. And my photographer, Aaron, you probably met him at the rally. He was like, oh Scott, you've got to do this as a sticker. And I was like,

    I don't know if I do it as a sticker, it just makes me feel like I'm trying to make myself the center or everything. And I'm like, I'm trying not to just be that. I'm not trying. There we go. Can you see that?

    Dave Gregg (33:40)

    No. No.

    Yeah. Yeah, that's cool.

    Scott (33:50)

    So, and I'm like, could make special die cut stickers if just that, but like, I'm trying not to take away the idea that like, I really want this to be about community and not just be about me. And I love what you said, I appreciate that. Like I put a lot of work in everything I do, but I really do wanna make sure that it's like, I don't know, something for everyone.

    Dave Gregg (34:11)

    So,

    so,

    That resonates with me, right? Like I don't ever want to make anything about myself. And so I understand your perspective, but also looking at it from an outsider and what DCxPC is and how you promote stuff. You're always on the face. You do the unboxing videos you do and your enthusiasm for it is kind of like it's gone beyond you.

    You know what I mean? Whether you like it or not because of the way you've done stuff, you are the face of DCxPC and there's no DCxPC without Scott.

    Scott (34:59)

    And I respect it and I get it, right? Cause you're right. I'm doing the, I'm hanging up flyers. Hey, I'm doing the unboxings. I'm posing and I'm certainly not a shy person, right? So I'm not like, I have a podcast in my face, right? Like I'm not, I'm not opposed to it.

    Dave Gregg (35:12)

    You're not the guy in the back of

    the crowd with his arms crossed listening to the band. You're the guy up front screaming along.

    Scott (35:16)

    No, no.

    I'm introducing half the bands at every show, you know, whatever. Like I gave a speech at the immigrant fundraiser that we did on Sunday. So I get that. I just, I know I put myself out there, but I'm also the only person like, until this year, I never had any support, consistent support. This year I have a back line and I kind of like,

    Dave Gregg (35:30)

    That's all.

    Scott (35:45)

    If I wanted to do something, I'd like to have the whole back line involved. Cause they matter. I've had the same sound guy for almost every show. Right? I've had Aaron take photographs at every show I've done since the Rally in the Valley. I've had the same door guy at every show. Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (36:00)

    Hey, you want to talk about Aaron?

    Hey, so I'm, after we got done playing Rally in the Valley, I'm walking down the street with my sister and my niece. And this is after we got done playing and Aaron stops, he's walking by us and he stops and he says, Hey man, great set. And, you know, tells my sister, you know, thanks for what she does for the homeless. And that's that sort of thing. And I talked to him briefly and he just said, you know, I'm Aaron from, he said something about his band. He said, Oh, what's the name of your band?

    Scott (36:28)

    Snorts yeah

    Dave Gregg (36:29)

    And goes, The Snorts I was like, like Batman logo.

    Scott (36:33)

    Yes.

    Dave Gregg (36:34)

    Like, I've never seen The Snorts play live. I've never, but they did one, the Batman logo, the old school Batman logo, and it says The Snorts on it. And I fucking love it. And I'm like, because you did that, this random guy that you're talking to walking down the street remembers your band name in, you know, because of that. I have this thing in my head where I think that like,

    It doesn't fit, Like The Snorts and it's like two totally different things. But I just, I just think of Aaron being like, I said Batman logo, man. Put it on there. Like, I mean like, all right, fine. Okay.

    Scott (37:07)

    This is a very weird juxtaposition.

    It's funny, like, in artwork, like, you know, I've always believed that, like, punk rock and artwork really have to go well together, that there's something about it. And The Snorts have a t-shirt, and it has the word Snorts, and then it has, two versions, with white lines and yellow lines going across it. And they did this show up in Albany, and this guy's like, I really like your band, I wanna buy your t-shirt. But that one looks like it's a bunch of cocaine lines for me to start. And the other one looks like a bunch of ketamine lines or urine.

    So when you get some like, when you get some shirts that doesn't look like I'm snorting cocaine, ketamine or urine, I'll buy a shirt from you.

    Dave Gregg (37:54)

    Do they have any more of those shirts? I would totally wear one.

    Scott (37:57)

    I'm sure they do. I'm sure they do.

    Dave Gregg (37:59)

    I would so wear one.

    Scott (38:02)

    And

    they are one of those bands that like musically have continued to evolve. He sent me some of his new music and it reminds me like the Briggs and it's so fucking good. Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (38:14)

    Really?

    He's a super nice guy. Every time I've talked to him, he's been this guy.

    Scott (38:20)

    he's such a good person. It's like the kindness that oozes out of him. Like I just got lucky to meet him. you know. But like I said, I have this whole line of people that I want, I want to make sure that they're honored.

    Dave Gregg (38:29)

    So anyway, yeah.

    Yeah, dude, you want me to do something? I'll whip something up.

    Scott (38:40)

    Okay.

    Dave Gregg (38:41)

    Probably won't be until like, recording is coming up. I have to like put all my... Yeah, we just tracked all the drums. and then we're hoping to make some money off t-shirts coming up here soon so we can offset the cost.

    Scott (38:46)

    All right, you're recording.

    Okay.

    Yeah, I saw you

    had the new t-shirts here posting them up with your single. Those look really dope. I'm not allowed to buy more t-shirts. Like I have so many t-shirts, it's fucking ridiculous.

    Dave Gregg (39:03)

    Yeah.

    I don't believe.

    Dude, I have so many t-shirts. have piles of t-shirts.

    Scott (39:14)

    I have a dresser labeled, and I label my drawers. One says cut off, so once I cut the sleeves off, then I have a drawer for work shirts, meaning that they're acceptable for me to wear when I'm teaching grad school classes or work in the admissions office. Then I have all the other shirts. And the other two drawers. That's, pretty much. I've worn yours to work. Yours is close to, like the Intrusive Thoughts on the other one. Your shirts are acceptable to work.

    Dave Gregg (39:21)

    Yeah.

    Nice. Are those band t-shirts, the ones that you like work band t-shirts?

    I'll make one that's not, and then, so you can have one in every drawer.

    Scott (39:47)

    And I even try like, you know what, the easiest way for me to limit it is to only have a t-shirt from bands whose records I put out. The problem is I put out 50 records by now, right? And then you figure some of the records are two bands, some are four bands. Even doing that limitation gives me more fucking t-shirts than I could wear.

    Dave Gregg (39:59)

    You put on, you got a lot of t-shirts already.

    Yeah.

    Yeah. New t-shirts though, like have you ever heard of the band Homefront?

    Scott (40:14)

    It's like, my God.

    Feel like I have, yes, I think I just had them on one of my playlists recently, yes. Either this week or last week.

    Dave Gregg (40:26)

    Okay, now have you heard of

    the band Homefront or have you just seen everybody wearing their t-shirts?

    Scott (40:31)

    No, no, no, I actually heard of them. I didn't know who they were until I heard their music.

    Dave Gregg (40:35)

    Because I've seen probably a thousand people in other bands playing on stage wearing a home front t-shirt and Before I check them out. I mean t-shirts are you have a good t-shirt design. I Mean, obviously they're they're a good band what they're doing is cool But if you have a good t-shirt design it goes everywhere You can't go anywhere in Baltimore any show and somebody's not wearing a meth rats t-shirt. I mean

    Scott (40:40)

    Interesting.

    Sure, these

    are great t-shirts, right?

    Dave Gregg (41:04)

    They knocked it out of the park, And that's not what I did. That was somebody else. I don't know who it was. I think it was maybe one of the dudes from The Ravagers. Actually, was a combination. Like Justin told me he had one guy do the logo, one guy draw the thing, and then send it off to someplace in Indonesia, and the guy pieced it all together. I don't know. It some weird process that he had.

    Scott (41:23)

    That's fascinating.

    I have a band I manage called WORLDSUCKS basically like a thrash metal band with like deep punk political influence and we had a meeting last night to talk about the upcoming t-shirts and they have a song called Punch a Nazi in the Face but they haven't played it in like a year and a half. Like it's been it's been forever but at least not since the Rally in the Valley right like they haven't played it and they're like we have the shirts but people come and buy the shirts even before we played.

    Dave Gregg (41:29)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (41:53)

    And on one level, that's great, because we're on tour, we're making money, and they donate money at every show they play to a local cause. But they're like, we want to be more than the shirt. We want people to buy the shirt because they like our music. We don't want to just be people that are buying a shirt because they like punching Nazis, which everyone should like to do. But they're like, it's a shtick that's kind of worn its level out. We just want to stop doing it. And I was like, yeah, I think it's time.

    Dave Gregg (42:19)

    Yeah.

    Scott (42:21)

    I was like, it's done its course, but you're more than that. That was like something that occurred, what was it, five years ago when What's His Face got punched in the face and everybody was doing memes and jokes about it and.

    Dave Gregg (42:34)

    Wait, the guy?

    Scott (42:36)

    Remember when that guy got punched like that Nazi got the...

    Dave Gregg (42:41)

    Dude, okay, yeah, what was his name? It was like Richard or something?

    Scott (42:42)

    Alright.

    Yeah, feel like I just, off the top of my head, I can't think of it.

    Dave Gregg (42:50)

    I never posted this. I gotta show you this. Hold on. This is so dumb. I was just doodling one day. So that's good to know that sells really well. So I don't think that they should do that anymore. WORLDSUCKS I think that maybe Sick Move should do it and sell a bunch of those t-shirts. And then we'll be the punch nazi and the face guys for $30 t-shirts.

    Scott (43:15)

    Yeah, go ahead.

    There was a band called The Longest Hall that had a great T-shirt like that in Florida too. So I'm not opposed to punching Nazis and they always sold well.

    Dave Gregg (43:27)

    Really?

    Yeah, mean, we'll punch Nazis. Damn it, where is this thing? wait, here we go. Here we go, now we're cooking. Getting closer, getting closer.

    Nope, not that one. And it's either this one.

    And yeah.

    Scott (43:50)

    Are you looking on your iPad?

    Is that where you do most of artwork?

    Dave Gregg (43:55)

    It's where I do all my artwork, not because, not for any other reason other than, it's just convenient. here we go. Is this the guy? That's so dumb. Yeah, all right. There you go. You know what? This is going to be a next Sick Move t-shirt. I just thought it was funny to like, have, like do a portrait of this guy. And this is another picture of him.

    Scott (44:03)

    Sure.

    Jesus. Yes, that's the guy. Holy shit, that's hilarious. I love that.

    Dave Gregg (44:24)

    and I was gonna have another fist coming through. Sorry, it's hard to see. There you go. And there was gonna be a fist coming through like this. I don't know the guy's name. Was it like Richard Spencer? that his name? Yeah.

    Scott (44:27)

    Yeah. my God.

    Yeah! No, that would sound really well. Yes, yes, I think that's

    it.

    So, you know, like art matters, but like you also want to make sure that it like evokes who you want you are. Like I've been doing really well with those like DCxPC love shirt, so in the hoodies. So because I try really hard in this area to make sure that the spaces are inclusive and gay and trans positive, which shouldn't be a hard thing to do, but there's enough of a tough guy thing around here that sometimes it needs to be done.

    Dave Gregg (44:51)

    Yeah.

    Listen.

    Scott (45:07)

    There is not, not a lot, but there is. I've certainly seen it. It reminds me of like late eighties, early nineties, broh-ness

    Dave Gregg (45:11)

    Yeah.

    Really?

    Scott (45:21)

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (45:22)

    I don't know.

    Scott (45:24)

    I

    think that's everywhere, not when there's in a hardcore scene, think it just tends to exist.

    Dave Gregg (45:30)

    You know, I'm not anything positive, right? I am positive, but like my whole take on it is I'm not, it's 2025. Like of course I am. You know what I mean? I'm not gonna say it either. You know what I mean? Like, you shouldn't have to.

    Scott (45:34)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, you shouldn't have to, right? But like, but

    literally when arguments start happening, people start dropping like the faggot term and stuff like that. I started hearing that. like, I was like, all right, this is, just don't know, it's fine. I don't deal with that at my shows. can't, yeah.

    Dave Gregg (46:06)

    Well, there's a band from Punk Island called...

    Scott (46:10)

    Yes, yes they are. But they were probably gay and taking back the term the same way like Bitch Magazine took back the term. And I remember being in a Punk Island committee meeting and some of us voicing discomfort with it. But you know what? Sometimes art is supposed to be uncomfortable. But there's art, yeah. But art being uncomfortable is not the same thing as someone just being a fucking person on the sidewalk throwing slurs at people.

    Dave Gregg (46:29)

    especially punk

    Yeah, yeah, and nine times out of 10 are just crazy, you know? That's what I tell myself anyway.

    Scott (46:40)

    There's a difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    Most likely. But like, I see you're wearing the RBNX shirt. Like when I moved here, I saw RBNX stickers everywhere. And because I didn't know what RBNX stood for, I thought it was like a skateboard company or maybe a type of amp. I had no idea what the fuck it was. But the stickers were fucking everywhere. The Hudson Valley was just filled with them.

    Dave Gregg (47:02)

    Really?

    I got this from them at pedal pushers and I've worn it every day. was like 25 bucks when they came down and played with us at pedal pushers the first time I played with them. Fucking love them. Love that band. I think they're amazing. I even kind of pitched to Mike, I was like, hey man, I got this idea to do some art for you. And I pitched it to him and he was like kinda into it.

    Scott (47:33)

    Fuck yeah!

    Dave Gregg (47:38)

    And I was like, you know what? You guys don't need any help in this department. Like you're killing it. Like I was at the show we played the other night. I was wearing this and Bob's wearing the alien RBNX t-shirt, the yellow one. I was like, they don't need, they don't need me. They're killing it. But I will say this, I did tell Mike this, they got one logo and I haven't seen it all. They've got this one, they've got, and they got another one. But the best one that I've seen is one that they did out of tape.

    Scott (47:57)

    They're gonna-

    yeah, yeah, yeah, that one's great.

    Dave Gregg (48:10)

    And it's really

    good. was like, dude, you guys got to use that. Like it just looks so good. And I couldn't even see the whole thing, but I only saw like RB and part of the end. And it was like in one of their pictures on their Instagram was like, that's, that looks the best. That looks awesome.

    Scott (48:28)

    They're playing Galactic Panther in a couple weeks.

    Dave Gregg (48:33)

    What's that?

    Scott (48:34)

    It's a show space in Alexandria, Virginia.

    Dave Gregg (48:38)

    really?

    Scott (48:39)

    Yeah. So I booked their tour, Dave from Rise Defy helped set it up. So they are, yeah, they're coming on their way back from Florida. So sometimes after New Year's, I think it's like maybe January 3rd.

    Dave Gregg (48:50)

    That's where I've heard the

    really?

    Scott (49:03)

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (49:06)

    Well.

    Scott (49:06)

    So then

    I have Shark Noises playing Galactic Panther in March. I don't know if you saw Shark Noises, they were the last band on Sunday. So I actually need bands if you all wanna play that one. If you wanna play it, I do need more bands for that show.

    Dave Gregg (49:12)

    I did. I've got a short noises t-shirt I wear all the time.

    What day is it?

    Scott (49:23)

    my God, I'm right. I'll email you later. I want to do that. And it's like, yeah, yeah, I'll send it to you. But yeah, you're on my list of people to reach out to anyway. So it's one of those venues where I booked the show, but I have to find all the bands. That's my least favorite tours to book. I like it when I can book a tour and I find a promoter that I can handle stuff.

    Dave Gregg (49:25)

    So anyway, should be a text about it.

    Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm just no-

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah, yeah, we're trying to play, but we're also trying to get this thing done. We've got a lot to do on the next thing, so.

    Scott (49:44)

    So.

    Mm-hmm.

    Which I respect, right? Like sometimes you gotta just stop and play and like record and take the time to do the writing that you do. What are, what?

    Dave Gregg (50:00)

    Yeah, and this is

    the first band that we've been in that Matt and I have been in where people have been actively reaching out trying to get us to play.

    Scott (50:10)

    As they should.

    Dave Gregg (50:11)

    But yeah, mean, but we used to have to fight to like get to play places. And so it's hard for us to be like, no, we can't, you know, we try to play a lot.

    Scott (50:15)

    Sure.

    Yeah, sure. So what art are you working on right now? Do have any projects in the works?

    Dave Gregg (50:26)

    Well, I just finished up an album cover for Hollowed Sky, this band out of Baltimore. And they're not like my typical thing. They're more like, they're really good. They're really good. Stylistically, it's not something that I typically do, but I don't let that deter me. I don't want to just do punk bands. I want to stuff for people who want me to do stuff

    Scott (50:56)

    Yeah, absolutely.

    Dave Gregg (50:56)

    that makes sense.

    and working on like a food truck design for a good buddy of mine who used to be in a band and is actually he's in Doc Martens and Flannels, but he's kind of starting up this food truck thing and It's cool. It's it's a fun one to do so and

    Scott (51:18)

    So Doc Martin and the Flanels,

    that's interesting, that reminds me of that NOFX song, Jeff wears Birkenstocks and he wears a Tide Died Rancid shirt, like Doc Martin's in Flanels, it's like, okay, you're rocking the...

    Dave Gregg (51:30)

    Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there are 90s.

    There are 90s cover band and they kill it. And they kill it. I mean, like you want to play a year if you're a bar and you book them, you're going to have a full house. They kill it. And he is such a good vocalist. And he was in a band. His name is Billy Fisher. He was in a band called Freudian Slip out of Baltimore with Jeremy. Remember Jeremy Hayes, who? Dude, he's killing it right.

    Scott (51:36)

    that makes sense.

    Yep.

    Okay.

    Jeremy did such great work.

    Dave Gregg (52:01)

    Have you seen what he's doing with Ottobar TV?

    Scott (52:02)

    I think,

    no I didn't even know what that was, I gotta look that up.

    Dave Gregg (52:07)

    Dude, they're doing like it's... You remember how you... Ottobar like you could find old recordings of Ottobar. Like I remember I found an old Avail show and I think I found an old Against Me show at the Ottobar. And it was like the VHS thing. So the TV in the bar, like you could look out there. Now they're actually filming them. And not only that, but they're doing the sound. You got to listen to the Adverts one. Dude, it's...

    Scott (52:19)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Dave Gregg (52:35)

    So good and Jeremy live records it and mixes it Trapped Under Ice he did

    Scott (52:41)

    I'm looking now is like he did scowl and I gotta I gotta reach out and see if they wouldn't release any of this stuff on vinyl

    Dave Gregg (52:44)

    Yep.

    dude, that'd be a good idea. And it sounds so good. Listen to it. Like Jeremy's

    Scott (52:56)

    Yeah, and then

    yeah, I'm definitely gonna reach out. Holy hell.

    Dave Gregg (53:03)

    And you know how this all started?

    Scott (53:05)

    No.

    Dave Gregg (53:07)

    by me, so when we were gonna record for, to release with you, we were like, Jeremy, we don't know how to do it. And Jeremy was like, well, all you gotta do is just take one of those, like plug a flash drive into the mixing console and then just have like a room mic. And we were like, but we don't know how to do it. He's like, you know what, fine, I'll just come down there. And so I comes down there, he's like, got his mic set up and he's never like, he's recorded his own band.

    Scott (53:15)

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (53:36)

    live once before and it sounded phenomenal. I was like, that sounds great. And when I showed up at the venue, it was at Metro, when I showed up at the venue, he was just like, he was kind of like, this is cool, you know, and he was having a good time. And yeah, and then the next show he did was Trapped Under Ice at Ottobar. So yeah.

    Scott (53:38)

    Yeah.

    Oh my gosh, and then he's like, okay, should record this too and

    set up the video as well. Oh, definitely. Because the Overprivileged in the The Revelevens's recorded an album at the Ottobar I think it was Mary or Margaret, and they did a great job with the board. But Jeremy, kind of like my guy Josh down in Florida, my guy Dez up here. There are people that make sure that like...

    Dave Gregg (54:08)

    really?

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (54:26)

    They're micing everything separately and distinctly from the room sound to the recording sound. They're two different things. And that's a hard thing for me to explain to people because I'm not really a technician myself, but I do understand that there's a difference between what you want to get from the room and what you want to get onto the board for me to record. Like I flew down to Florida Underground Fest last year and I used a program called Reaper, which is kind of like Pro Tools. And I hooked my laptop up to the 32 thing board.

    Dave Gregg (54:44)

    Right.

    Scott (54:55)

    and I just had the unmixed tracks coming in straight through to my computer and saved it on an external hard drive. But everything had to be mic'd. But not everything that was being mic'd was being processed for the room. They weren't inherently like, there were things that they would have never mic'd for the room that they were micing for me just so I could have it. Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (55:02)

    Yeah.

    Really? Huh.

    See, yeah, I just call that wizard stuff.

    Scott (55:26)

    Yeah, it's not really my skill set. Like I hire really smart people.

    Dave Gregg (55:31)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (55:32)

    You know, I

    hire smart people that know what they're doing and can solve problems and I don't have to stress about stuff.

    Dave Gregg (55:41)

    I couldn't agree more. That's, you know, I, one of the strengths for our band is that we know what we can do and we know what we can't. Right. And we know that like, if there's art, we don't need to hire an artist or a graphic designer. Cause like, I'll just do something. If somebody doesn't like it and whatever, we'll just not use it. Right. And, or, and Bob, we don't even have a screen printer. Bob's screen prints all our stuff. And yeah.

    Scott (55:48)

    Yeah.

    See, that's great.

    Dave Gregg (56:08)

    And we don't have marketing because Matt does all the marketing and like. And he's like a wizard, that kind of stuff. And he's,

    But yeah, like when it comes down to sound, we just record the tracks and throw it at Jeremy and be like, hey, make this sound good. And he's like, cool.

    Scott (56:26)

    Yeah,

    and that's what you want to be able to do. You want to just have utter confidence that it's all gonna be just how it needs to be. Like, my basic album covers, if bands send me a hi-def logo and hi-def photos for me to use on the back, I can do my basic covers in Canva. My skillset is more than serviceable to do my bare-bones covers. But when I have to make flyers, it gets even a little more problematic. And anything beyond that is outside my skillset. I have to hire people.

    I can run a PA if I need to, if I'm having a show, but I can't run a PA and go, this is where I need the mic it to make sure that it gets the full sound of your bass amp properly recorded for a live. I can't do that. It's way...

    Yeah, it's fine. like, I just can't. And I don't know what can be done and fixed in studio magic versus what has to be set up properly. You know, I have, with all the people that I use it and recorded stuff, they all have different philosophies. You know, some are much more anal retentive that are like, okay, this is exactly where this mic needs to be for me to capture this guitar amp the right way. They'll be like, oh, this will be fine. I can fix it in post-production. I'm like, okay. I just trust them.

    Dave Gregg (57:46)

    Who's the guy that you just had on? The recording guy? Is he down in Florida? He had the glasses?

    Scott (57:49)

    Josh. Yeah. He's not in

    Florida. Yeah, he does all the mixing and mastering for pretty much everything I do. So you're one of the few records that he didn't mix and master. Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (57:57)

    Okay.

    really? okay, wow.

    That guy was super interesting to listen to. And it's how he goes about stuff. He's like, I don't like to do it piece by piece by piece. He's like, I want to get all the bands playing live. And that's something I fought against. The Sick Move, cause Matt had gotten it or somebody had gotten in there like, maybe we should try it like this. I was like, guys, we're not that band. Like we're not going to be sitting there playing it live like that. Like.

    Scott (58:05)

    Yeah, it's.

    Yes.

    Dave Gregg (58:28)

    It's just, I feel like it's just gonna take us a really long time to get it to where we

    Scott (58:33)

    But I knew that's how he recorded it. So I like, this is the guy to do all my live albums. So like, he did my very first album as a live stream and we started to record it. And I convinced him that once he could do it as a live stream, could carry his whole thing to a venue, to a dive bar and do it again. And he hesitated because he was concerned about his equipment getting broken and shit and bringing all his stuff there. But, you know, I managed to convince him.

    But like DCxPC would not exist without Josh.

    Dave Gregg (59:05)

    It's awesome.

    Scott (59:06)

    Without him, would have probably died an early death. It would have done three or four releases and be done. No, I'm glad it hasn't too. And because of him, I knew what I needed. I'd be like, hey, I'm up here. I wanna record some local bands up here. What do I need to look for in a sound engineer? And he would give me advice. These are the things they need. you wanna give them my number, I'll talk them through what they need to do. So invaluable help, kindness.

    Dave Gregg (59:11)

    I'm glad it hasn't.

    Scott (59:36)

    So.

    Dave Gregg (59:39)

    Heck yeah, that's awesome.

    Scott (59:40)

    But that's what

    I'm about. Community, man. It's community.

    Dave Gregg (59:43)

    Absolutely. I'd much rather do art and an album cover for a band that is just starting out locally in my scene than I would for a national touring act. Well, I mean, would love to do a national touring act, but...

    Scott (1:00:01)

    Absolutely.

    Dave Gregg (1:00:07)

    But, you know, it's not why I do it. I don't do it for money. do it because I'm gonna be drawing anyway. So if I can help somebody out by doing it, even if it's like doing something like you want me to do, draw a flyer or something like that, yeah, like, me know. And you don't have money, you know?

    Scott (1:00:15)

    Yes.

    Yeah. Yeah, would, I would, would, your flyers

    are great. I would love to have you draw a flyer. So.

    Dave Gregg (1:00:27)

    Yeah, yeah, hit me up.

    what mean? You never know what I've got going on,

    Scott (1:00:33)

    Yeah. Like I said, I try and spread stuff out to make sure I don't overwork or overtax into my artists and also just kind of gives like a fresh look to the shows. I found a new artist at an event I was at and they did a great job. And then I used them back to back on another show and the new flyers also great, but their colors were so close together that I was like,

    Dave Gregg (1:00:44)

    I'm gonna...

    Scott (1:00:58)

    I was like these shows are only a week apart and the colors are so close and almost looks like they're the same show. So.

    Dave Gregg (1:01:04)

    I found an artist

    that you used and I really like his stuff.

    Scott (1:01:09)

    Is it Brendan on the Internet?

    Dave Gregg (1:01:12)

    you used Brendan on the Internet?

    Scott (1:01:13)

    Yeah, I Brendan on the Internet all the time.

    Dave Gregg (1:01:15)

    Oh, Brendan on the Internet is really, really good. Um, Ed Zomby. Are you? Let see. Oh, dude, that's, that's sick.

    Scott (1:01:18)

    Yep, I'm wearing one of his shirts right now. Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (1:01:27)

    That's awesome. See, that's a good t-shirt. I feel like I haven't cracked that yet, I haven't cracked that. Like, I want to get that good, Sick Move t-shirt, you know? ugh. No, was Ed Zomby.

    Scott (1:01:30)

    Yeah, it's white, but it's good.

    Ed Zomby okay Ed Zomby's great he actually lives in Mexico so The only issue I've heard and I say this with all you know since English is probably not his first language I have to really go through the fine-tooth comb to make sure that it's like 31st and not 31th and little things like that But he's so responsive and so kind and so helpful his work is really really friggin good

    Dave Gregg (1:02:06)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:02:10)

    And it's just been a matter of like, there was a brief period where I was doing so many shows. I think I did like five shows in a month. And I was like, well, if you take five shows and multiply it by 40 bucks, that's $200. And I just had to do some flyers by myself because I just needed to not spend the money because I was putting out records. I was like, where am I going to put the money? Towards putting out records or making flyers?

    Dave Gregg (1:02:21)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like I got asked by Baltimore subspace who we played. It's like a art scape. No subscape. It's, it's like a, like a different edition for like local Baltimore music and sometimes touring acts, but like they do this festival at like Metro and, a couple of different venues, but they reached out and they were like, Hey, look, we don't have money to pay you.

    Scott (1:02:33)

    You know.

    Dave Gregg (1:03:01)

    We're trying to do, cause I did the DOA flyer and the War on Women cause we play with them. And so I was just like, all right, let's just, I'm going to do that. I did a flyer. We put it up on the billboard and they were like, you're not going to be able to get it off on this big led billboard. Well, Matt knows the person or is, you know, emailed him, got it up on the billboard, like the week of, and, um, so they reached out this year and they're like, Hey, look, we don't have any money, but do you mind like drawing another flyer for one of the days? I was like, sure.

    Scott (1:03:04)

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (1:03:31)

    Just don't sell it, you know? Like, don't make copies of it and sell it, but like, pay the bands. That's fine. I got nothing else going on.

    Scott (1:03:31)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Well it's even like, so like, Brandon on the internet charges a very reasonable price, but I had like one show where we had to make a revision, and then another revision.

    and then I had to switch venues and make another revision and he did it like in like three hours in between his daughter's lacrosse practice and I sent him some money I was like why'd you send me money I revised for free I was like yeah but you made a lot of revisions and you've probably done a bunch of other revisions and so I just feel like I need to pay you because even though you said this is the flat rate and I can revise as needed I know how often I've had to come to you and say hey this band changed I need you to do a new flyer

    Like that's, you know, it's hard to find people that do good work and are responsive and willing to make changes without getting irritated at you.

    Dave Gregg (1:04:32)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. I mean, is he in a band?

    Scott (1:04:35)

    And he's great at that.

    I don't know.

    Dave Gregg (1:04:41)

    I've followed him for a while now. He does really, really good stuff.

    Scott (1:04:47)

    Yep. I use him. I

    use total nuclear hell.

    Total Nuclear Hell is the one that did the Rally in the Valley shirt. He did in my Florida Underground Fest

    Album that just came out and then Ralpho Ralpho does a lot does a lot of really good stuff, but he's like he's got a full-time job so every time he works for me it's like And he does a lot of art on the side that he gets paid for so it's like I know how busy he is

    Dave Gregg (1:05:19)

    Dude, got a whole list. Have you seen, first of all, these are like my favorite, let me plug some guys on that.

    Scott (1:05:29)

    Yeah, plug some guys.

    Dave Gregg (1:05:31)

    I don't, you know, you can always reach out to them. I don't know if... But first of all, one of my favorite guys right now is fucking my underscore fetal brain. And his name is Jeff who plays in the Slads. Have you heard of them? And he also plays in another band called Damage. Damage, I think. And dude, this guy has got like the 80s, like ugly ink art down. So good.

    Scott (1:05:43)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (1:06:02)

    It's... I love it. Like, he's my obsession right now. Like, his art is just so good. He did... You ever heard of Psy-Op? Out of DC? Yeah. He did the tape, the new four-song EP that they just put out. It's fucking killer EP. It's killer artwork. So, definitely check him out. Dude, look at his stuff. I...

    Scott (1:06:11)

    Yes, absolutely. Yes, I have great. I love Psy-Op

    Okay.

    Yeah, I'm looking at it right now. It's fucking sick,

    yeah.

    Dave Gregg (1:06:32)

    I'm like, I gotta look at it and I gotta be like, all right, don't get any ideas, you know? Because I don't want to rip the guy off, but I love what he does. And he was super nice. I like messaged him. said, hey man, like, what are you using? Like he walked me through his entire process and so like how he gets the effects that he does. Cause he does a lot of heavy distressing and like a lot of.

    Scott (1:06:38)

    No, I get that.

    Yeah.

    Oh yeah, it's like all

    the kind of like grainy but like really clear at the same time. It's really rad, dude.

    Dave Gregg (1:07:02)

    But I love the way he draws stuff because it's like a little bit fucked up, you know Like his some of these guys another guy you got to check out is doom to

    Scott (1:07:04)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Doomtoof?

    Dave Gregg (1:07:14)

    D-O-O-M-T-O-O-F. I don't know the guy at all, but he did Supreme Commander's, one of Supreme Commander's albums.

    Scott (1:07:24)

    Alright, I'm following him right now. Taking a look. Yeah, Supreme Commander was supposed to have a record coming out with me. I gotta follow up with him. I know they recorded it and sent it to Jeremy and it just kind of disappeared.

    Dave Gregg (1:07:37)

    well,

    I don't know if I should say it, but I heard it and it sounds fucking great. Because Jeremy will sometimes send me stuff and be like, hey, does this sound okay? And it sounded awesome.

    Scott (1:07:48)

    Yeah.

    Okay, awesome.

    Dave Gregg (1:07:52)

    I don't know if I should say that, so...

    Scott (1:07:55)

    I don't know why you shouldn't say it. What's wrong with saying that music sounds awesome? So that's... I don't think anyone's gonna...

    Dave Gregg (1:07:59)

    Yeah. Like if you're having it, if you're

    hesitating, like, I don't think it sounds good. Shut up. It does. sounds really good. All right.

    Scott (1:08:05)

    Hahahaha!

    Alright, this guy's rad. Yeah, okay, what you got next?

    Dave Gregg (1:08:13)

    dude. I love this guy. Sergi. Hold on. This guy is like kind of my hero. Sergi.

    S-E-R-G-I dot D-I-N-A-M-I-T-A.

    Scott (1:08:44)

    D-I-N-A-A-R-I-S. Boom. that's pretty fucking rad,

    Dave Gregg (1:08:50)

    Dude, look at this guy.

    Scott (1:08:53)

    He has his account as private so I can only see the little thumbnail he's got. Yeah, I don't know why his account is, why would you have your account as private if you're an artist? But I guess like he doesn't need all that. Yeah, artist illustrator, low brow art and punk rock, custom art for bands and things. Like he's got his account as set as private so I have to wait for him to accept me before I can see his full profile. Yeah, that's okay.

    Dave Gregg (1:08:58)

    That's good.

    No.

    Jay Howley

    the Howley on Instagram. He's out of Baltimore. He's kick-ass

    I have one of his posters because it fell off the wall of Metro, so I took it.

    The Howley, I love this guy's art, dude, man. This guy is so good.

    Scott (1:09:49)

    There he is, Jay Holly. Got it.

    Dave Gregg (1:09:53)

    Also, Eyeball Fortress. I don't know him, but he's great.

    That's actually a good Instagram handle. wrote Devin. He's out of Baltimore too. He did Ottobar stuff. I have both of his Ottobar teachers and I love them.

    Scott (1:10:07)

    Okay.

    Alright, that's good stuff.

    Dave Gregg (1:10:16)

    Yeah man, so he's... There's other people's. Graydon... Graydon Speace. Duh. He did our social networking cover for the single. I don't know why we do covers for things we're not actually printing, but like... We just like the art for it, but... Graydon Speace. is... That guy I would definitely hit up. Or,

    Yes, it's Graden, G-R-A-Y-D-O-N-S-P-E-A-C-E.

    Scott (1:10:52)

    Huh?

    Dave Gregg (1:11:00)

    He's got, dude, he does like collages that are rad.

    Scott (1:11:00)

    Cool.

    yeah, this is some rad

    shit. this is some dope ass shit.

    Dave Gregg (1:11:12)

    He's so good at that stuff too. He's also in like, northern Pennsylvania.

    Scott (1:11:19)

    Okay, super right. So when I send people to go look at your stuff, should they look at your Instagram or do you have a website or anything? Is your Instagram your best place to look at stuff? Okay.

    Dave Gregg (1:11:25)

    Thank

    just Instagram.

    There you go.

    Scott (1:11:33)

    And you

    do.

    Alright, I will also put that in the profile. What is Chris Dizzle? Is that Shizzle My Nizzle? Like what is that? So I figured that was your rap name. Do you rap? Do you have flow? Can you drop bars?

    Dave Gregg (1:11:39)

    So.

    Yes, my rap name.

    No, but in case I do, it's just nice to have that part figured out. Like if I decide that I'm going to be a rapper, I don't have to think about the name. already have it.

    Scott (1:12:01)

    Yeah.

    All right, my brother, it has been a pleasure chatting with you. I thank everyone for listening. If you need an artist, I am telling you, Dave Gregg is fucking phenomenal. His work is great. Check out his Instagram in the description of the episode. It is worth your time. Flyers, album covers, t-shirts, tattoos, because I'm definitely gonna get that tattoo.

    Dave Gregg (1:12:13)

    Always Scott.

    Hell yeah.

    John Waters. Let's do it.

    Scott (1:12:36)

    I'm going to. That's

    gonna be like my birthday gift to myself. Right down my fucking face. Nah, fuck him, wouldn't let me take a photo with him. He just did a shot with me instead, which is also not bad.

    Dave Gregg (1:12:41)

    right there.

    I didn't even think to get a photo with him. We gave him a...

    Scott (1:12:55)

    I asked.

    He said, no, but I'll do a shot with you to Baltimore. And I'm called No Shot Scott up here. Like I don't drink liquor, but I did a shot with John Waters because it's fucking John Waters. But then then fucking surge. You got a picture with him outside. And I was like, what the fuck?

    Dave Gregg (1:13:07)

    and on the waters.

    I know, I saw that. There's a lot of people.

    One of Bob's friends, Mike got a picture with him outside.

    Scott (1:13:18)

    Well what the fuck? I asked first!

    Dave Gregg (1:13:20)

    Yeah. He left his t-shirt. We gave him one of the Intrusive Thoughts t-shirts and he just left it at the bar.

    Scott (1:13:26)

    Yeah.

    Dave Gregg (1:13:30)

    Ha

    Scott (1:13:33)

    at he was there. Dude's probably s-

    Dave Gregg (1:13:34)

    I know it was such a good

    night. was such a Baltimore night. I mean like

    Scott (1:13:39)

    It was a great night. I had so much fun. was such a pleasure being there. I'm glad I made the drive down for that.

    Dave Gregg (1:13:45)

    yeah, we had such a good time. I'm glad you came. I'm glad the record's selling well.

    Scott (1:13:49)

    Alright.

    yeah, yeah, and we can we can see what happens. You know, maybe when your other record comes out, we'll talk about maybe doing a repress and doing a bundle deal or something like that or figure it out. I haven't done represses before, but I do have a distributor now. So you know, so it does help to sell the records and represses are cheaper than the originals because you don't have to pay for yeah, you don't have to pay for the stampers to get made again.

    Dave Gregg (1:14:09)

    cool.

    Go to that.

    okay.

    Scott (1:14:20)

    So

    it's usually like a couple hundred, three to $500 cheaper to repress.

    Yeah, that's why I was like you repress this if you press a small amount You're paying a higher unit cost if you're repress later your repress cost is gonna be pretty cheap

    Dave Gregg (1:14:39)

    Cool. Cool.

    Scott (1:14:40)

    Yeah, so. Alright

    my brother, thank you so much. Thank you everyone for listening. This has been DCxPC Live Scene Support with David Gregg.

    I want to call him Greg all the time, but that's actually his last name. He's got a last name, first name, and a first name, last name. It is what it is. People do that sometimes. I would have taken my wife's last name, but it's Frank, but I already have Scott Michael. So if I would have been Scott Michael Frank, that'd be three first names, three last names, and three middle names, and I just couldn't fucking handle that, so I had to tell her fuck now. So she had to take my name, otherwise I'd have gladly taken, her name could have been Snot Pockets and I'd have taken it, but I ain't taking fucking Frank.

    Dave Gregg (1:15:13)

    This is one hell of an outro,

    Scott.

    Scott (1:15:18)

    Alright, that's it, we're done. Fuck y'all. Love you everybody. Bye.

  • Episode 24: Caroline Borolla of Clarion Call Media

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and the publicists, we’re here to give credit where it’s long overdue.

    I’m your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going, and today’s guest is one of those people doing that work day in and day out.

    Today I’m talking with Caroline Borolla, founder of Clarion Call Media, a PR and marketing company representing some of the most exciting names in punk, alternative, and independent music. With a background in journalism and years of experience amplifying underground voices, Caroline’s work bridges the gap between artists and audiences, getting great music heard without compromising the DIY ethics that built these scenes in the first place.

    She’s been helping me on the DCxPC Live Vol. 42 Celebration Summer/Wolf-Face campaign, and she’s absolutely crushed it, bringing professionalism, passion, and a deep understanding of how to connect authentic music with real fans. I wanted to bring her on to talk about what she does, how she does it, and why independent media still matters in 2025.

    How are you doing? Did I pronounce your last name correctly? I should have asked that first. I should have also verified your pronouns, and I apologize. You would think after 15 years of being a teacher, I would know to make sure how to pronounce things before I do stuff.

    Caroline (01:27)

    I'm good. How are you?

    You did, yeah.

    Scott (01:35)

    your pronoun and I apologize sometimes I'm smarter on these things you think after 15 years of being a teacher I would know to like make sure and how to pronounce things before I do stuff

    Caroline (01:44)

    These are great.

    Scott (01:46)

    Thank you, you're very kind, you're very kind. So, I know I can talk about what you've done with me so far, but I really like to just, I'm a former history teacher, I'm gonna dig into the past. How did you get to here, what was your musical relationship epiphany that like sparked you to love music and then led you on the road to doing what you do and how you do it and all that? I know that's broad question. Start wherever you choose.

    Caroline (02:09)

    Yeah, I mean,

    you know, I mean, I think it's like a lot of us, it's like, you know, like my my parents were hippies and there was always music in our household all the time, records, tons and tons of records like my dad.

    words, records out and my mom, they're like die hard music fans. So there's always something and it was always something like odd. Like it wasn't like the traditional, like, you know, they loved a lot of like the sixties and seventies like nothing.

    Scott (02:38)

    There's like Frank Zappa playing

    in the background like here play with some mercury listen to Frank Zappa

    Caroline (02:42)

    Totally.

    But then there was always like some weird like...

    stuff that you're just like, what? And like, you know, my dad, my dad, like he, um, he went to like Monterey Pop and like slept on someone's like porch because he didn't have a place to stay, but he just really wanted to go. And then he slept on some ladies like porch swing. I don't know. Like, but so there's all these like weird stories of my parents going to all these like festivals and like seeing things. And so it's like, you know, I just grew up in that household. Like music is this really special thing that kind of brought people together. And you know, I, I, I,

    listen to like weird my parents are also like very big public radio supporters so yeah and so like you know they were always like finding weird things

    Scott (03:25)

    Yeah, NPR all day.

    Caroline (03:34)

    So, you know, I totally, totally. I remember when I like a group in Philadelphia and there's this weird ish radio station, there's WDRE.

    Scott (03:34)

    Weekend NPR is the weirdest shit.

    Caroline (03:47)

    played more punk music than... It was still radio, so it was commercial, but it was definitely things that you wouldn't hear anywhere else. so, as a 14, 15 year old, I found Sonic Youth and a bunch of other bands through the radio, which I think is kind of interesting. I don't know if nobody would hear it be like, I heard my first Sonic Youth song on an actual

    Scott (04:11)

    It is.

    Caroline (04:17)

    Radio station, but I was like 14. Maybe I don't know and then Yeah, it was in Philly, but it was probably like a late night show I feel like it was like 11 o'clock midnight

    Scott (04:20)

    You must have been in like a big city or something, right? Were you near a city? Yeah, there you go.

    Caroline (04:34)

    able to play some weird things and I was like, this is so weird and cool. And it kind of just made me kind of go into like a rabbit hole of, you know, finding weird scenes and like kind of in that place of like discovering things outside of your parents and outside of what people really knew. You know, and then in college, I did college radio and you

    Scott (04:36)

    Yep.

    Caroline (04:59)

    and so in the late 90s, in the late 90s, so it's like I went to like Fort Reno and saw Fugazi.

    Scott (05:00)

    Okay.

    We were there at the same time. I'm from DC. I was there

    like 91 to 2008. So Fairfax, Virginia and DC proper. I went to college at UMBC in Baltimore. My wife went to American University. Like I grew up going to shows at the old 930 club and Black Cat Later and the The Loft Ballroom, Wilson Center, all that stuff. How have we not run into each other? Probably, yes, it's always possible.

    Caroline (05:12)

    Yeah.

    I want to American.

    Yeah. huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, probably at some point. mean, yeah. I mean,

    I started in 98. And so it's like, went to like, Fort Reno and a bunch of, like, I got to see Fugazi and like, a bunch of cool shows there that I'm like, how is this possible? You know, and through the radio station, like, I remember going to weird shows in like, College Park where it's like, I don't really know totally.

    Scott (05:40)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Caroline (05:56)

    finding all these weird shows at the radio station and you know just like

    Scott (06:00)

    Were you at the

    University of Maryland radio station? Because I remember they used to have a radio station.

    Caroline (06:03)

    I went to American.

    Scott (06:07)

    So you went to the same college as my wife even? So funny. She, when was she there? I'm guessing she was there probably around 98, 2000 maybe. See, she was born in 1980. So yeah, 98 to like 2002. yeah. So she was in a punk band called Die Cheerleader Die. So I don't know yet. Yeah, how crazy? How did we not know this? This is fabulous.

    Caroline (06:10)

    wild.

    Yeah, I'm born in 80. I graduated in 2002.

    amazing. That's so funny.

    The things you find out.

    Scott (06:36)

    Yeah, but you mentioned like

    the radio station and like College Park they used to have I went to a radio station show when I was in high school it was like Sepultura, Helmet and Ministry and it was like this all ages sponsored by the University of Maryland College Park radio station I was like what the fuck is this how is this happening this is great

    Caroline (06:53)

    No, totally. there was this girl that, like, she had a lot of friends that went to University of Maryland and I remember we met some, like, crazy show that I was like, what is this? Like, I don't even remember who played, but I just remember just being like, what are we doing? what? But just, finding all these cool music and you're just like, okay. Yeah. And then, I mean, I wrote for the newspaper as well and I was writing reviews of shows. And then after school, I...

    Scott (07:08)

    Awesome.

    That is fabulous.

    Caroline (07:24)

    was freelancing for some music magazines I wrote for CMJ when that was a magazine.

    Scott (07:30)

    Okay.

    Caroline (07:33)

    few other.

    I did an internship at CMJ when that was actually still magazines. And then I was like supposed to start as an editorial assistant there when they had two magazines. There was a weekly magazine with college radio charts and then the monthly, which was more of like a glossy non-industry magazine. And like the week that I was supposed to start, they merged the two magazines into one.

    Scott (07:40)

    Yes.

    Caroline (08:03)

    and therefore they cut my role that I was supposed to start and they were like well you can do something and I was like okay they were like you can still write reviews or whatever and you know we'll pay you to enter college radio charts and I was just like what so I did that part-time and then um I also got an internship at a

    Scott (08:08)

    Alright.

    Okay.

    Caroline (08:28)

    radio promotion company and I was also working in a record store. You know, I was like 22, like doing everything. I worked at the Virgin Megastore in Union Square.

    Scott (08:34)

    Record Store.

    yeah, I know that store. Okay.

    Caroline (08:41)

    Wild, wild. I have a friend that worked at the Times Square store, which was also crazy. We were talking about that. But yeah, so then I was doing this internship at the radio promo company and they didn't have PR and they were losing a lot of jobs because there were other companies that offered packages of press and radio at that time. And they were like, do you want...

    Scott (08:46)

    Yeah, yeah

    Caroline (09:04)

    to start a press department. was like, if you're giving me a job, I'm 22, 23, sure. I was like, I don't know, but okay. And so there was no, yeah, there was no PR department. So it was me just, you know, talking to people that I knew, going after things that like worked for me that, you know, and knowing things that didn't work for me. Yeah, just picking people's brains a lot.

    Scott (09:09)

    editing you want me to do yeah let's do it

    Caroline (09:34)

    friends with at the time and he I just like picked his brain all the time like was like what do do how do do it and you know like going to bookstores and finding any sort of magazines and like writing people's information down like finding new writers and I build everything from scratch and I worked there for about five

    Scott (09:35)

    Yeah.

    Caroline (09:58)

    booked band on late night TV and you know kind of peaked and then after that I moved to LA and yeah we started more jobs and stuff so it's kind of a weird other jobs and yeah I mean it's you know like it's really bizarre like I just was like I don't know and like you know I mean one of like the jackpot moments for me it's somebody that I know

    Scott (10:07)

    You started what?

    Other jobs, yeah.

    Caroline (10:24)

    told them that they did this. You know, I still on a lot of press lists for you know other publicists at the time and that I was starting to do PR and someone I know that I'm actually really good friends with. They sent out like an email blast and didn't BCC everybody they just CC’d everybody. Their blunder! I just reached out to everybody and was like hey I'm updating my

    Scott (10:45)

    no.

    Caroline (10:53)

    Do you want to get my mailing?

    Scott (10:59)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Caroline (11:00)

    And I

    was like, whoops. I don't even know if I killed that person or if I don't know. yeah, I mean, it was just like, wow, this is the jackpot of all jackpots. And they worked at a pretty big company at the time. And I was like, whoops. So I got, you know, their mailing list at the time. you know, pretty awesome. Yeah.

    Scott (11:06)

    Yeah, that's awesome. Good for you, I suppose.

    That's pretty fascinating. Okay. I have

    so many questions because you've gone through the world of like where they're actually were print where maximum rock and roll was print and then it'd be online and you've been doing press and then you get to all the the blogs versus actual print and like it's hard to get print press and It's hard to know what websites are actually really viable ones, which are which are more which are ones are like hey You know

    Caroline (11:39)

    Yes, yes.

    Yeah.

    Hello.

    Scott (11:50)

    pay us five bucks and we'll review your song, which five bucks doesn't sound like a lot in my mind because I'm like on one level, you used to send someone a tape or a record or a CD and that's more than $5 just mailing it to them. But then.

    Caroline (11:57)

    Yeah, sure, but...

    Scott (12:04)

    You know, they just copy and paste your press release and put it in there and say your song sounds like it has guitars in it and you scream and it's like, wow, that was a, that was shit. So how do you navigate figuring out where to go? Does it matter what the band is you're working with? Like you have this broad spectrum of like possible places. Then you like narrow it down based on the bands you're working with.

    Caroline (12:28)

    Yeah, I mean, I think that's a little bit, I mean, like you're saying, it's like when I first started, it was like you mailed 100 CDs out to people and, you know, like, or more, you know, and it's like, what? Yeah, and there were so many magazines and now there's what, 10? I don't know if that is like, you know, so, you know, in certain genres of music, there are more magazines than there, you know,

    Scott (12:36)

    Yeah.

    Caroline (12:55)

    It's definitely, it's really interesting like, you know, in the metal world, like I'm working with a metal band right now and it definitely feels like the metal world's really interesting because I feel like those people actually think a lot more than indie rock.

    they draw, they draw their own conclusions. Like I've definitely seen the reviews are definitely deeper than like indie rock feels more like regurgitating a press release, but the metal ones were actually really thoughtful. And I was, that was really surprising to me. I don't do a lot of metal. So I was definitely like, even listening to podcasts and things like that. Like I actually found myself like listening to everything that came through because it was like always a different perspective. So I thought that was really, that was.

    Scott (13:12)

    Okay.

    Caroline (13:42)

    really

    interesting to me that those fans were actually actually digging into things. I don't know, like I definitely found that a little bit you know of a refreshing change. Yeah like you're saying I think that you know there isn't really any like one

    Scott (13:48)

    I mean

    Caroline (14:03)

    size fits all for a campaign anymore where it's like before it was like okay you package up the CDs you follow up with this person this person and this person and you know they're gonna you know read the bio they're gonna think they're gonna come up with interesting like you know people would come to you in the past where they're like I have this idea and now you're the one that's like

    my idea, you know, or what is this about, you know, and it's like, I think, you know, finding something that people can gravitate towards or understand or is relatable or what's what are these songs about I think is helpful, especially especially in the indie world where it is so saturated where maybe some of these other genres they don't have as many things that stick out. I don't know. So, you know, it's like finding

    angles or finding a story, which is like something that I think really helps, especially, and I think it especially helps with a lot of a lot of bands that are just like male, like here's another white boy band. Like, why should you pay attention to them? Because I think there are so many of them, you know, that

    Scott (15:13)

    Why is this one any better

    than the last one?

    Caroline (15:16)

    Yeah, so I think having something like having an interesting bio like that helps versus like the most boring by it. Let's at least, you know, make it a little bit easier for people to pitch like, you know, and I think that's also something that

    Scott (15:31)

    Yeah, give it something.

    Caroline (15:34)

    Totally and I think it's also something where it's like bands in the past Maybe didn't have to put as much effort into that and I think I think it is really interesting right now where it's like mid-level bands You know that have gotten like good press They've gotten you know the pitchfork or the stereo gum or whatever You know, whatever the household name is that they've gotten in the past I feel like those bands when they come and put a record out now, they kind of struggle a little bit more than some of the

    something like a band that's already really established or then a band that's just starting out and is happy to talk to anybody. I think it's really hard for those bands in the middle because they're expecting a lot of these things that they're not going to get either because it's like such a saturated market or if they're a writer that was a huge supporter they don't work for them anymore.

    Or just opportunities just don't exist. You know, so those bands are the ones where it's like, that's like the really the hardest projects, I think, because you really forces everybody to get creative and everybody to come up with something interesting because it's like, you want to fight back from the editor that's like, we've covered this band three times in the last three years, why should we do it again? And I understand that. I totally understand that where it's like,

    Scott (16:52)

    Sure.

    Caroline (16:55)

    you know if they aren't the buzzy thing of this moment they were maybe three years ago but they're not anymore why should they care now and I think those are the hardest records and those are the ones where it's like a lot of work but it's also when it does click it's actually really super rewarding because everyone really worked together to make it work

    Scott (17:17)

    do like guts.

    That's kind of the tricky thing, right? Like I'm working with you now, but I worked with people in the past and I have actually paid attention to what they did and garnered some of the contacts that they've used just because I pay it close enough attention. So I know various people, various online blogs and I have my own press list and I send it out personalized. I don't do like a BCC. I'm like, Hey, blah, blah, long time no see. Thank you. You know, I might, you know, and like some people like Loren from scene point blank always responds to me and he does what he can do. It's all fine. Whatever that

    Caroline (17:39)

    totally.

    Scott (17:48)

    happens to be is very kind and like Lisa from New Noise as well you know will get back to me but then other people I'll send like five records in a row over the course of six months and get nothing and all of a sudden the sixth record I get a response and I don't know if it's cuz they just like the record or they less going on let's come be like it's it's hard to know

    Caroline (17:55)

    Yeah.

    Scott (18:09)

    what's effective and I've even tried to learn how to write press releases by working with people like I've seen the one that you've drafted and I've seen other people I'm like okay what fits my style and tell the story and I tried to learn from everyone because saving money is good but I've also found that like spending time and getting nothing is not good and my time is valuable.

    Caroline (18:29)

    Yeah.

    No, totally. It's like, what's that balance of like, okay, yeah, how do I kind of craft a press release or craft an email blast that feels authentic to who I am, but also, you know, resonates with other people. It's like, it's hard, you know, it's like, kind of like what I use every day where it's like, okay.

    And it's like, you know, and as much as people are like, you know, the connections, meeting people, and it's great, it's true, but there's also a lot of writers that are in the middle of nowhere, or it's like, you don't see them at shows because they aren't making money, so they can't live in LA, they can't live in New York. So it's like, you're not gonna see a lot of these people out, you know, and it's like, sure, there are some, but it's like, they're not gonna do everything. Yeah, totally.

    Scott (19:14)

    And they move around when I was in DC

    my wife and I were in a band called the Twats and Right around the time we broke up in seven eight something like that

    I his name. I just ran into him in Kingston, New York of all places a couple months ago. He came down to a show that we did in April. My wife and had a different band and he didn't even know we were playing. He was like, oh my God, I haven't seen you all since 2007. And he's a lawyer now, but you know, he really dug us and did a feature on us like for the Washington City Paper or the Washington Post, I forget which one. And I'm like.

    I mean, it was really nice. It was like, you know, nice size. My mom saved it and cut it up and like your name's offensive, but I really like what they say about you. Like, but how does that even happen? Like, I think he like came to the shows and just really liked us and we could have sent out a thousand press releases and never gotten that kind of attention.

    Caroline (20:06)

    Totally, and that's the thing where it's like sometimes something just like hits someone really like wow. It's also interesting too when it like they get it like way after the fact because that's happened to me where it's like you know a band maybe played before the record was out or right when it came out and then they came back like a year later and this person's like what is this and then all of them you see this crazy profile and they're like couldn't have done that six months ago.

    Scott (20:33)

    Yep. Is, me step back for a second. So when I started the label, I had to fight my DIY ethic that like, you don't advertise, you don't promote that way. You're supposed to like be word of mouth. Maybe you send off your record to Maximum Rock and Roll or Punk Planet when Punk Planet was still around and you know, you send it off to Amp Magazine or now like, you know, Razorcake

    But you don't do anything beyond that. But when I start the labels like, okay, I'm not just managing my band now. I'm actually managing putting out things and I'm putting money on the line and people are kind of counting on me to do more. And I tried to take some online classes at places like Indiepreneur and stuff and learn how to do social media PR, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm doing all this and it's just, it so much feels like spinning my wheels. Like it just feels like this just gets nowhere.

    fast and I don't know how you're supposed to break through because there's so many bands and I love getting the great reviews from maximum rock and rollers and I mailed on the record and they generally are great reviews but even those take months this was my question I was rambling waiting to get my question to come out like if I were to send a press release not you know because I put out enough records I couldn't hire you for every record I'd be broke

    Caroline (21:43)

    Yeah.

    Scott (21:54)

    How soon do you say like how far out do you send it out? And you know, should you be focusing like I do a lot of pre-sales and pre-orders? Should I focus on that? they only care about the release? Like are there any like five top tips if you're going to send the press releases or five things that you should do that like that'll keep you from annoying the person you're sending it to.

    Caroline (22:14)

    Yeah, I mean, I think there's something that I can say I personally find kind of annoying. Well, something that I, you know, generally, I like this all kind of ties into what I think is kind of annoying. So I think generally, you know, if you're announcing a record, having two or three singles come out, having an announcement maybe two to three months ahead of time.

    Scott (22:29)

    Yeah.

    Caroline (22:42)

    That feels like enough lead time. think anything else, people have short attention spans. So I think people don't necessarily do that thing that we used to do 20 years ago, the four or five months lead. You don't need that because the majority of the thing is print. If somebody's focused on a deadline, well, it's like you miss out on your cream.

    But like, you know, they're quarterly or whatever. So it's like, it's hard to make those things, you know, it's like, you know, or like under the radar.

    you know, they're quarterly, so it is a hard thing to make those deadlines. And they also have websites where it's like, you know, there's a lot of things that I like, I have something coming out in Cream in December, and I'm excited about it. But they also confirmed that like three months ago. So, you know, I think two to three singles, you know, announced it, yeah, two or three months out, depending on if you're hiring somebody.

    Scott (23:44)

    So two weeks out is too close.

    Two weeks is like, you're wasting your time, Scott. No one's gonna respond in two weeks.

    Caroline (23:50)

    Yeah,

    I mean, that's definitely cutting it. you know, I mean, if you want six weeks.

    You know, a month, two weeks is really challenging. There's just not a lot that can be done. And I think it's just that there are so many things. Like I think part of it is like, and this kind of goes back to how things change. It's so easy to put out music, like with things like Bandcamp and you know, as much as Spotify sucks, people can just put songs up there and it's out, you know, which we didn't really have those, you know, 10, 15 years ago, or it wasn't as easy for people to just be like, I'm in a band. I'm going to put this out without a

    Scott (24:12)

    Yes.

    Caroline (24:28)

    label, I'm going to, you know, it's like, yeah, like it's just, it's a whole different climate in terms of having things come out, you know, every day where it's like before it was like Tuesday and it was way in line with the record.

    Scott (24:41)

    every week release radar

    like it's constant and even me I think I put out 15 records this year and we're in October that's a lot of records it's a lot of records and there's no way that I can like you know I'm sure we'd be like do you literally sent me 15 emails and in the last like eight months and you're only giving me like three weeks lead time that's like well I because I'm with that's someone person behind the gun trying to do everything myself

    Caroline (24:51)

    It's a lot.

    Yeah.

    Scott (25:09)

    That's all I can do to get the band to give me information.

    Caroline (25:13)

    Well, yeah, and I think that's also it too is like labels is like Chase it where it's like, you know, I have some labels that I, you know, work with on retainer and some of them are much better at getting things together than others. And some people are like, yeah, we do have this in a month. What can you do? Or we do have this in six weeks. And it's like, I think it's like managing your expectations where it's like six weeks, it feels like you can still get people to do something a month. It's like,

    Really cutting it close, but we're gonna do what we're gonna do, you know, and it's like making sure that you're aware like You know, it's like and it's also like there's also like that crap shoot of whatever your release date is, even if you planned it out for like You know two or three months It's like Taylor Swift could put a record out on your release day and it's like everyone's just gonna like forget whatever the hell else is happening in it

    Scott (25:59)

    Sure, sure.

    Caroline (26:01)

    So it's like, can't really predict that kind of stuff too. So it's like, you know, like that happened like two or three weeks ago and things just kind of got overlooked. you're just like, you know, but it's like, you know.

    Scott (26:12)

    No, no, I,

    and that's where things like I try and do, you know, my pre-orders on like Tuesday or Wednesdays. Everyone releases everything on Friday. And it's like.

    Caroline (26:22)

    Totally. Yeah, no,

    it's so smart to not be on a Friday because it's just like, you just got lost in the shuffle of everything's out today.

    Scott (26:30)

    Yeah.

    Everything's

    out today of course people might have like bought everything on Friday when they got paid on Friday And then they come to Tuesday like I got no money left where it comes it or they don't have money They're waiting till they get paid on Friday by the time they do that they're just they've forgotten about the record that you saw on Tuesday and It's it's hard to know how much to post and how often it's

    Caroline (26:39)

    Totally. No,

    they forget.

    Yeah.

    Scott (26:52)

    If you're a small DIY

    label run by one person, what you're doing, what you've accomplished with like Wolf-Face and Celebration Summer, so fabulous. So many great varieties of things you've done. Some sources I've known, some new ones, the bands are really happy. They've never gotten this degree of press. So like, I just want you to know, like everyone is very pleased.

    Caroline (27:04)

    Yeah.

    Awesome.

    Thanks.

    Thanks. Yeah, I mean, it's fun. Like it's definitely, you know, it is like hitting up different people. Like I'm stoked they got the Bandcamp mention. Like that's, you know, yeah. Yeah. Like I hope you got some good streams or orders from that because they, like I had somebody and they got, they were like.

    Scott (27:23)

    Yeah, that was great!

    Yeah.

    Caroline (27:33)

    was in streams in like three days and I was like, what? Like, you know, I'm like a small band. And they're like, that's awesome, you know? And I do think like it's cool. Like Bandcamp definitely opens doors for people that wouldn't have been able to do things on their own.

    You know, and then there's like some of the punk sites are doing it, you know, and some of the, it some more straightforward indie rock. Like I think it's like a really good, like, like you saying an eclectic mix of things that, yeah. And people seem really excited and like the interviews are really good questions. I feel like, um, which is impressive.

    Scott (28:05)

    Yes, it's not the same perfunctory questions

    over and over and over again. And like I said, like all the things you've shared have seemed authentic.

    Caroline (28:11)

    Yeah.

    Scott (28:17)

    And I say that because I remember when I first started, I was using someone to help with PR. And I think I, it only took me two campaigns to go This isn't a real website. They basically created this website so they could post reviews and no one actually traffics to this. Like this is, this is obviously like beyond garbage. and that was my first foray. That was awful. That was like, you're just taking my money. They make me feel good and I don't need to feel good. I actually need people to hear the record.

    Caroline (28:17)

    Mm-hmm.

    Right.

    Yeah, no, totally.

    It's a bummer. It's a bummer because I feel like stuff like that, you know, people like hate publicists and I swear we're decent people. Yeah, but it's like people hate publicists, you know, because we just bother them a lot and it's like...

    Scott (28:56)

    I believe you.

    Caroline (29:03)

    also just like doing a job and I think that you know most of us are like real music fans or we grew up playing music or you know and it's like we wanted to you know turn something we love into a career you know it's like and I think it is really hard because what we do it's so hard to quantify where it's like I really do try and keep people updated I really do try and do reports I do try and you know send links I try and you know ask questions I'm like how can we make something happen

    You know, so it's like, think people that like, I think I might know who you're talking about with that, um, made up sites, but, um, you know, it's stuff like that, that makes it like easy to hate us because it does seem like you're just taking people's money or you're just, you know, making things up. it's like, yeah, it's, hard enough where it's like, if you're not a person that communicates what you're doing, like somebody can be like, why am I paying you? You know, because

    Yeah, there isn't the stuff that we used to have. So it's like if you're not constantly sharing links, if you're not constantly like, what's next, you know, I think that it does make it a little easy to to hate us and

    Scott (30:16)

    Yeah, and it's hard to find that balance. would say everyone else I've ever worked with the issue is either a they were expensive and Didn't quite get me as much as I wanted for what I thought I you know would have paid for or they were they were really reasonable

    Caroline (30:29)

    or

    Scott (30:33)

    Still didn't get me much but what can I say when something is reasonably priced and you don't get much and I'm an honest enough person to know That it's not inherently all just them. It could be my it could be my album It could be the story of what I could what I fed them what I've given them the content may not be deserving Right, like let's just be honest. Everything isn't you know, a shiny gold nugget that people are gonna love so

    Caroline (30:52)

    I'm sorry.

    Scott (30:56)

    It's like I booked tours for bands and some tours are easier for some bands than others. And I'm smart enough to know that so I don't disparage those people in the work that they did. It's only the ones that I think were basically lying. It's the lying. Or like, you ever see those curating sites where they have curators and you upload your album as a campaign? And I'll be honest, I've worked for two myself. But...

    Caroline (31:01)

    Fresh air. Fresh air.

    Yeah, of course. Yeah, totally.

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (31:25)

    My blog's not really around anymore, but I would spend a significant amount of time reviewing these and writing real authentic things for not a great deal of money. And the one that I still kind of respect the most is SubmitHub. I mean, I don't get one to two dollars to review a song, but it would take me an hour to review the song. And I did a real review and I met great bands that way. Yeah, it's like, I mean, that's not money.

    Caroline (31:47)

    $40 like

    Like I think what Jason's trying to do with SubmitHub is cool and I think there is something to it. But it's hard, you know, it's like such a hard balance like where it's like, yeah. I mean, he does.

    Scott (32:06)

    And they do a good job and

    The problem is like there'll be some people on Submithub that are also on the other place that I don't care for I'm just not gonna blast in another place and they'll charge Exponentially more on the other place for the same stuff that I would get for some it hub for you know, whatever

    And I'm on their marketplace and I think it offers and I decline them all the time. So I'm just way too busy working on my dissertation. I don't have time to give you a review of value and I'm not gonna take your money if I can't do it well. I'm just not gonna do it.

    Caroline (32:34)

    Yeah,

    no, totally, totally. I mean, it's tricky, you know, and it's also like, there's also some blogs in there that we used to like pitch and now it's the only way that they take submissions and we were like, I get it, but it's also like, man.

    Scott (32:48)

    Yeah,

    now you've got to pay to submit, which makes you raise the prices on the artists or the labels that you work with. Yeah.

    Caroline (32:52)

    Yeah.

    It's challenging. It's definitely like

    it's like, like I get it, you know, because a lot of those people, it's not their full time job, you know, so it's like, I get they want to be compensated in some way, but it is just, it's a tricky, it's a tricky situation, you know, you know, and again, I think it's just all part of like the changing, you know,

    everything and changing environment of what we're working with where it's like you know what used to work doesn't work anymore you know where it's like exactly exactly

    Scott (33:24)

    And five years from now it won't either so it's just it's gonna constantly grow and change It's it's like figuring out the

    social media algorithm. You think this is working and all of sudden it doesn't work You know, I've designed video ads for bands. I'm like, this is great. We got like a hundred thousand views This is amazing a month later. I try and do the same thing and it flops and I don't understand once again It could just be the song but it could just be

    Caroline (33:44)

    Yeah.

    Well, totally.

    You know, and I think also kind of going back to what you're saying, like in terms of like publicists, it's like for us, I think it's, we don't necessarily work with things that we don't think we can at least do something like for us. It's like, you know, we're a small company. We don't really have a lot of overhead. So it's like, we can be like, Hey, you know,

    do this yourself for a while and then come back to us where it's like, you know, we're not the right fit. And it's like, you know, sometimes there are other publicists where I'll be like, maybe this person is a better fit, you know? And for me, it's like, I'd rather be honest at the start versus like feeling like I'm taking somebody's money and then not doing a good job because it's like, that's, yeah.

    Scott (34:36)

    I

    You were referred

    to me from like Dromedary Records and Nick from WORLDSUCKS was a band I actually managed. So and yeah, it and my wife's like I was I wasn't good. It was like I've done PR. I'm just not going to. Yeah. She's like, no, no, no. I feel good about this one. You should do it. I was like, OK. And, know, you and I sat down and, know.

    Caroline (34:43)

    And SAVAK,

    Scott (35:04)

    We talked about what releases you thought you could work with. didn't just say, yeah, give me any schlock you have and I'll take your money. Like you were really thoughtful about what I had in the wings and what was far enough out that you could work with properly. Like I felt like you were really being considerate of being able to deliver something. And I felt like if I didn't have anything, would be like, you know, Scott, maybe later, none of these albums are speaking to me.

    Caroline (35:09)

    Totally, totally.

    Yeah.

    For sure. And like, I think that that's kind of why people come back to us is because we're honest. At least I, you know, it's like, try and be, and especially for some like, you know, there's definitely like some newer bands that come to us and it's like, I want all these things. And it's like, you're not going to get all these things. And it's like, you also need to develop your own like audience before you have, think, you know, a publicist is not a magician. You know, it's like you, you know, the, days of like publicist

    really breaking a band, a band that's self-releasing an album, those days aren't really here. Even the bands where it looks like they don't have a team, they have a team. It's like there's money being spent. So it's like play shows, get something going on in your own community, tour regionally, have something to bring to people before you work with a public system, before you put money into it. There's a lot that people can do on their own and

    I think that there's also this generation of like so much instant gratification too, where it's like they don't always want to put that work in and they think somebody else can just do it for them. so, you know, for me, I'd personally rather be honest, because I think it's just going to be miserable two or three months because I'm not going to get what you want and we're just going to be butting heads. So like, let's not do it.

    Scott (36:53)

    And I think

    that that point about instant gratification is really important because let's be honest, I only press 200 records and for what it cost me to do that.

    and when it cost me to hire you, I would have to sell every record and I still probably wouldn't make a profit. But I didn't look at hiring you as a way of making a profit. I looked at hiring you as a way to broaden the audience for these bands and also broaden the audience for my record label long term. So I'm not checking my Squarespace website every day to see like, well we got posted on this blog, I wanna see how many people come over to it. I'm not looking at that micro level

    I'm thinking more long term that you were an investment not in profit for this record, but in building a relationship and growing for the next 10 years. I'm not looking at immediate, give me this now. It's more like, Hey, maybe a couple of times a year we work with a release and we do something really special. And then that'll help rising tide lifts all boats. If people start reeling with the label, it'll help the other releases too that don't get that same push. Cause I can't afford to do that push for every release.

    Caroline (37:59)

    sure.

    Right, right. Yeah, no, totally, totally. I think it's like, you know, you get it. It's like sometimes it's like brand new bands or, you know, a lot of it's like self-releasing or things like that are small labels that are just starting out and they're like, we gotta get this.

    You know, but it's like for me, it's like I would personally, it's just, I don't know. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. I gotta be honest with people. I don't know what it is. Like, I can't just, you know. Yeah, it's what we say.

    Scott (38:28)

    I taught at a Catholic school for a decade. So seriously, just we lived

    in the same world somehow. We just never knew it.

    Caroline (38:36)

    Totally, totally, it's like what? But it's like, you know, I just feel bad, like I can't lie to people like that. You're like, yeah, totally, we got this. It's like, god, it's horrible, you know? And it's also like, for me, it's like I also have to like the music, you know? And it's like, if I don't like, there's things where people are like, you should totally, I'm like, I don't like it. It's, you know? And that's fine, it's fine, you know? Because...

    Scott (38:45)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Caroline (39:00)

    There's so many people that care about things I don't care about, so go work with them.

    Scott (39:03)

    It's but as I said, I'm like being a label or even

    being a musician like, I could drum for you, but I like you as people, but I really don't enjoy playing your music. Even if I enjoy listening to it, I enjoy playing it or I think you're great people and I think you're a very tight band, but I'm not going to able to sell this record because I'm not going to be able to say anything positive about it. Like sincerely positive, I'm not going to be like be at a festival because I do a lot of festivals I go to and I'm like, this is the record you need to buy. I'd be like.

    Caroline (39:13)

    Totally.

    Scott (39:32)

    Yeah, this one's good. I'll keep steering them away from your record.

    Caroline (39:35)

    Yeah, and it's like the same thing.

    But it's like the same thing, you know? It's like you're saying you're like one person and it's like, you know, Clarion Call, you know, we're three or four people and it's like we're not going to really push a lot of things that we just can't 100 % get behind because it is a lot of work, you know? And it is a lot, you're talking to these people, you're talking to them every day and it's like if you don't like it, it's like, it's hard and it's just not, and that's, you know, and that's part of why we do it is like we really want to.

    We wanted the autonomy and we wanted to just be able to be like, all right, you know, maybe this band does have a really great budget, but it's still just...

    you know yeah so

    Scott (40:22)

    So,

    have a lot of artists on your webpage. Are they like, are they artists that you actively, or or are they ones like, we work with them but they haven't done anything in two years, but if they come back in two years, like, how many of them, like how many artists are you actively working with on a regular basis versus you're kind of on a retainer or have a built relationship?

    Caroline (40:28)

    We do, yeah.

    Yeah, I mean,

    yeah, I mean, there's like some on our website. Yeah, like you said, we have a lot. There's some that are just like, clients we've had and we know they're going to come back and do things. There's artists where it's like with Dromedary where it's like, I'm on the retainer. So it's like, they're just on there because whatever they do, whenever they it's just like, I was just going to be like, here it is. Okay.

    Scott (41:09)

    There you go. That's awesome.

    Caroline (41:11)

    So, you know, so there's things like that. And there's also things we just forgot to take off the website.

    I mean...

    Scott (41:21)

    It's okay.

    Nope, I understand. I get it.

    Caroline (41:27)

    I mean, we're a small team. yeah, so I mean, but you know, how many have ever? Yeah, right now I have like six or seven in various stages. Some are just touring, some are wrapping things up, some are getting started. That's generally how I roll. I try not to do too much.

    Scott (41:29)

    Yeah, was like three of you, I think.

    Yeah, like how many do you work within a month yourself like in one month? How many bands do you work with?

    Do you tend to focus on album releases

    or do you also focus on tour promotion? Exclusive like or do they always come together?

    Caroline (42:04)

    sometimes we do tours separately. Sometimes they're separate. and if we do like just a separate tour, sometimes that's just like...

    an artist that we've worked with in the past and they come back and they're like, hey, we're doing a tour or it's like a word of mouth thing where it's like, hey, you did a good job and my friends are touring. Like I don't generally get a lot of like random, like listen to my record and promote my tour, which is a weird thing, but I don't. It's usually like a friend of a friend that's like, they're touring. Do you want to help them out? Or it's, you know, an artist that we've worked with in the past. So yeah, so it's like a combination.

    Scott (42:41)

    Is touring easier or harder? Like

    is easier to promote a tour? Is it easier to promote an album?

    Caroline (42:46)

    I like tour press because you think it's not like dangling a carrot over somebody. It's like once the show passed, you know, they're not going to cover it. So it's like, like versus like, hey, we like this record, but we don't know about space. And you're like, follow up with you in two, three weeks. you know,

    Scott (42:55)

    Ha ha!

    and you might cover it after

    the album comes out like three weeks later, right? Which is still press.

    Caroline (43:08)

    Yeah, so

    it's like when there's a tour it's like, well...

    You didn't get the preview, you didn't get the preview. So it's kind of nice because it's closed, you know, it's like a... But also it is kind of fun too because, and it's weird, it's like interesting to see what markets do well for press. Or what market people do well in playing shows because it's always something where I'm like, what? Like I've had bands that are like, man, Reno is so cool. And I'm like, Reno? Yeah, no, like...

    Scott (43:14)

    It happened.

    You know. Yeah.

    Caroline (43:42)

    Like all these

    bands that I've had play Reno in the last year have said it's so tight and they were like, we're going back. And I'm like, sure. You know, that's always really interesting to me. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's like...

    know, setting up sessions are fun too, where it's like seeing those things kind of happen, like, or, you know, if bands really are ambitious and want to do morning TV, like that's always interesting too, to like see what the response is to some weird band on morning

    Scott (44:12)

    Yeah. Do you get a lot of like you work on a lot

    of local press when you work? Cause like I know when I do shows here, I will reach out to like Kingston Happenings website. It's Chronogram It's a local culture music magazine. They have a website for stuff. There's a what else? A couple of places I reached out with Kingston DIY or Big Gay Hudson. If I've got a queercore show or something like that.

    Caroline (44:28)

    Yep.

    Scott (44:36)

    But when bands were on tour, don't know those things and I don't inherently have a list and I have friends of mine in a band called Modern Natives. They will like spend on those like nickel ads in like the small papers and they'll do like a little ad like this. They're really good about calling all the local newspapers and radio stations and like they're just really good at that.

    Caroline (44:36)

    Yep.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I mean, I think it's also like...

    You know, also in some of those like secondary markets, like people are just excited when bands come so they want to talk to them, which is really nice. Or just like pitching national press because sometimes you're just like, man, it's crickets everywhere. But then this band goes on tour and it's like, cool. You're playing Wichita, you're playing Tulsa, you're playing El Paso and we've got features everywhere. So like sometimes it feels like tour press can almost like save a campaign where it maybe didn't necessarily do this great on the national side, but it's like,

    Scott (45:08)

    Yeah.

    Caroline (45:31)

    Everybody's talking to them. So you're like man like something is clicking. Which feels kind of nice. Yeah, I mean I like doing turn-bills. I think it's fun. and I think it's like cool because you also like especially for bands that are active on socials like you can you can really see where you know, they're doing well and that's kind of fun to you or like inviting people out to see a band and it's like, you know, someone comes back like the next day and they're like, wow

    you know, I finally got to meet this band I've been covering for three years. Like that happened to me this last week, like this band I worked with, played in New York and they haven't played New York in a long time and

    blogger that has supported like the last like four records they put out and he got to finally meet them and like he hung out with them for like an hour and they were all so happy they sent me pictures like stuff like that's cool because you like you know that they're actually connecting with like writers that are have turned into real fans so that's that's cool

    Scott (46:18)

    Sure.

    That's awesome.

    Like I wish I had more time to write

    because that's happened. Like there was a local band called the Snorts and I did a review for them. I didn't know who they were and I went up putting out their record or Burning Hag from Philly. I loved them so much I just brought them up for a three-day run through the Hudson Valley just because we connected through a review of a song that I did. So like I found value in doing that. It's just there's just limited amounts of time.

    Caroline (46:40)

    Yeah.

    Amazing.

    Mm-hmm.

    Totally. Totally.

    Scott (46:58)

    And that's the hidden value that you can't put on things, right? Like, you don't know, it's almost like when you play to a show to five people. Like, I did that once in Baltimore and I met someone who helped us go on tour to Europe. So it looked like a piss-ass show, but it wasn't a piss-ass show.

    Caroline (47:11)

    Yeah. Right.

    Yes. Like, it's I mean, I think it's like even when you have those shows where it's like 10 people are there, it's like those people really want to be there. Like, you know, and like, who knows who they'll tell, you know, and.

    Scott (47:26)

    freezing for a second here hold on

    my internet is being problematic I think someone's probably using the microwave in my house again it messes up my internet I'm gonna tell my kid to stop cooking food anyone using the microwave

    Caroline (47:43)

    Yep, there we go. Maybe. Yes. Working.

    Scott (47:46)

    Don't use the microwave!

    Alright, I'm back. Sorry about that.

    Caroline (47:58)

    Yeah.

    Scott (48:01)

    I think we discovered that the day that the microwave affects my Wi-Fi somehow.

    Caroline (48:06)

    no.

    Scott (48:07)

    Yeah,

    so I think my kid was making a hot pocket.

    Caroline (48:11)

    Sorry, it's a nice time.

    Scott (48:12)

    How dare they

    eat? How dare they consume food?

    Caroline (48:17)

    I don't want kids,

    Scott (48:19)

    kids right so do you mostly work with bands or do you mostly work with labels then or is it pretty even-seven

    Caroline (48:31)

    retainers with labels and then the rest are bands and we do some festivals as well.

    Scott (48:39)

    Do you do like right up so do you

    It's like do you press for festivals so like which festivals do you do press for?

    Caroline (48:50)

    Clarion Call we did Best Friends Forever, the festival in Vegas, and Kilby Court Block Party. I did the Dromedary festival. huh. And then another festival, Seventh Stanine Festival in DC which was like, it was like pretty experimental,

    Scott (49:00)

    Yes, in Catskill.

    Caroline (49:13)

    Cool, like they got a right up in the Wire magazine and a few other things like that. Yeah, that was cool. And then my coworker Tito, he works with Dave Hause and he does a festival in Philly. And then my coworker is doing the first year, he's doing Corona Capital in Mexico City. Yeah, so there's some cool festivals. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I know.

    Scott (49:17)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Okay, that's pretty rad. I do have

    my Rally in the Valley Vol. 2 coming out in April so we may have to talk. I also already... Do you come out to them?

    Caroline (49:41)

    Alright, cool. I mean, I love you. Yeah, festivals are fun.

    we try, yeah, if it works. Yeah, it's fun.

    Scott (49:49)

    Yeah, if it's worth

    it, you're like, if it's worth it. And I already know which band I'm going to work with you next, but I can't reveal them yet. And it'll be my second only studio album. And they're from Philly. So yes. And they're the first band that ever convinced me to do a studio album because I've just been like, no, no, no, no. I refuse to do it. I refuse to do it. And then they're like, would you help us? I'm like, yes.

    Caroline (50:01)

    really? Nice.

    Really?

    Scott (50:15)

    I mean it's in this outside my box too. So it's like I'm not just swinging. am like swinging. So so I'm like I'm going to do it. But it's such good music and it's and it has the story right. You said the story. It's got the story. It's it's it's like and the album is just could be phenomenal. So I'm like okay you know what I five years I've resisted this it's time to to do it. Yeah.

    Caroline (50:22)

    love that. Amazing.

    That's all for today.

    I mean, I love that. I love that.

    It's really cool.

    Scott (50:47)

    So what tends to attract you personally to like a band? it the story or is it the music first or does it like when someone comes out of nowhere, what's the first thing you do? Do you read or do you listen? It's kind of like I teach graphic novels. You listen first, it's the music first. Yeah.

    Caroline (51:01)

    I listen. I listen. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Like, yeah. Like, even if there's a story and it's like, I don't think it's good. I mean, because that's...

    what people are gonna take their, you know, it's like people are gonna listen. And if it's like, you have such a short time to make a first impression, then it's like, if they like the music, they'll dig into the story. But I don't necessarily think the story over the music. I don't think people have that in them generally. Maybe there's a few people that do, but I don't, I don't, I don't know a lot of those people.

    Scott (51:39)

    No, that makes sense. Speaking of music, what's the three bands you're most stoked on or three artists? So that you're stoked on right now that you're like, whether you're working with them or not, it's up to you. You can focus on the ones you work with, but you can also just be like, these are the three things that like, I told you to listen to something right now, this is the jam you should listen to.

    Caroline (52:00)

    Um, this is yeah, no, it's so hard. It's so hard because, um, like I have work and then I have, um, okay. I, I really love High Vis. Um, I love that band. I was in Canada when they played in LA and I'm so bummed I missed the show. Um, I've seen them before, but they're amazing. Um.

    Scott (52:03)

    It's a tough one, isn't it? I know it is.

    Okay.

    Caroline (52:30)

    They're so good. They're so good. They're so good live. Yeah, that's one. I really like this record. I like the last one a little bit more, but they're still great. I really... I'm just trying to decide if I want to go clients or if I want to... I'm going towards...

    Scott (52:33)

    I've never seen them live.

    We can do three of each if you want.

    Caroline (52:59)

    I'm going towards

    like not client. The next one I'm gonna say is a client but it's I really love the immersion record

    Scott (53:06)

    There you go.

    Caroline (53:11)

    which is Colin from WIRE and his wife, Malka Spiegel. She was in Minimal Compact. It's this electronic record, but it's called What the Fuck? It's called WTF. And it's this really, really amazing electronic music. And it's just them.

    Scott (53:18)

    Okay.

    I love it.

    Caroline (53:30)

    just making really interesting sounds and like just talking about what's going on in the world and it's like electronic but in a punk spirit and it's a really really cool record and i think it it transcends like genres i think like people that are very into punk and it's not just because it's calling from wire and milk it's it just it just people just get it and i'm really stoked on that one

    came out like two or three weeks ago. They're playing some shows in Europe, maybe they'll come here, I don't know. Yeah, and then something else that I'm really... there's stuff that's coming out that I can't really talk about. Another artist that I worked with this year is this band, M(h)aol. They're from Ireland.

    Scott (54:07)

    Yeah.

    Is it through

    the mail or is it mail as in macho mail mail? No, which mail is it then?

    Caroline (54:28)

    It's neither of those. It's

    M(h)aol.

    Scott (54:39)

    Okay.

    Caroline (54:40)

    Yeah, if they're Irish, so...

    Scott (54:43)

    Fine.

    Caroline (54:46)

    But they're these like queer feminist punks and they're amazing and this was the second record that I did with them and...

    Scott (54:50)

    Awesome.

    Caroline (54:59)

    They're a band that, you know, they played like four shows in the US and they were really nervous but the people that came out were super, super stoked. Yeah, I'll send you this record. It's really special. They tackle a lot of like political issues. talk, you know. Yeah, it's really, really cool.

    Scott (55:15)

    Sounds amazing. It's like right up my alley.

    Caroline (55:21)

    Yeah, like gender issues, like it's a lot. It's heavy. Like there's definitely, they also, like I did this Zoom call with them like the first time I met them and

    and they were like, we're hired. And I was like, okay. And yeah, they, when they played in LA, I was like, you have to play Clementine and they didn't. But they have three other songs, newer songs that they played about dogs and they're all about dead dogs. They have three songs about dead dogs.

    Scott (55:41)

    Yay!

    Caroline (56:03)

    And my friend, like I said to my friend, I was like, I said to my friend, like, they didn't play Kong Time. And my friend was like, well, all the songs are about dead dogs, so you probably need that.

    Scott (56:04)

    I don't know how to respond to that.

    What do they think they're like a bluegrass flame playing on like NPR on the weekends? Gotta sing about my dead dog and

    Caroline (56:19)

    Fair enough. Fair enough.

    Scott (56:25)

    I love it.

    Caroline (56:25)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. Yeah. But they're, I mean, they're really special and I hope they, come.

    Scott (56:31)

    Good, sounds great. Yeah, I'm definitely into the...

    Caroline (56:33)

    There.

    Scott (56:36)

    Supporting a broader swath, know, I can't remember was during the recording or pre recording but avoiding the constant barrage of just Straight white guys and I say that as a straight white guy but like I've heard what I've had to say enough and Like I really try on my shows to make sure that they're not only inclusive places But their places where other voices are provided stages to speak and and share their ideas artistically intellectually, etc it's it's just I'm tired of the

    Caroline (56:47)

    I mean, yes, really.

    Yeah.

    Scott (57:06)

    same old thing. I like your new ideas.

    Caroline (57:08)

    I mean,

    and I think that's it too, and it's like, it is really hard, you know, and it's like, um, you know, there's bands that you love and it's, it's, it's tricky, you know, when they're just straight white dudes. It's like, you know, but it, mean, you know, it's, no, it's not, it's not bad, but it's just, yeah, totally, totally.

    Scott (57:23)

    Yeah, yeah. Not inherently bad. Like I'm not dissing the fact that straight white dudes can exist, right? Right? I mean, I am

    one and I think when I'm in a band, this can still be a good band, even if I'm surrounded by other straight white dudes.

    Caroline (57:36)

    For sure, for sure. Yeah,

    but I think it is interesting, like I think it makes it more interesting to have other people's perspectives and other people's views and I think just like making different music and it's like not just like guitar rock. It's like, it's so boring after a while, you know, it's like let's keep it cool and different like.

    Scott (57:54)

    Yeah, I was in Florida and

    we were all four dudes in a band called Call in Dead and then we got a new singer, Eva LaStrange and they're queer, trans, and...

    They really changed, you know, our lyrical content and changed the way we presented ourselves. And they didn't really make it like super known. They just wanted people to kind of figure it out. But then when our band broke up, because I moved here, they're now in a new band called M.A.C.E. Men Are Cunts Everywhere. I don't know. It might have other meanings, but that's the first meaning they told me that it was. And I'm putting out the record with this other band that's fronted by a trans singer called Trash Diva from Baltimore. And I had a point to this. And the point is that when I was talking to

    Eva they told me how dramatically different it was to be in a band with other people that were not just

    straight dudes, like being with other queer people, being with other fems. Um, you know, just, just that it, it's a totally different way of interacting and, that it just put them in a different situation of seeing and things. And I'm like, I get that. Even me just being in bands with people that are like 15 years younger than me, when I'm used to being in bands with people who are mostly my age forces me to really like rethink things. So, so I get that like for them, like this was their first time being in a band where it was within that demographic.

    Caroline (59:06)

    Totally.

    Scott (59:14)

    And I like I respected that I was like yeah, that makes sense it makes sense

    Caroline (59:22)

    Yeah, and there's actually another artist that I actually I saw this artist in Canada. I worked with them on a short campaign in the US. There was this Canadian artist Kimmortal and Kimmortal is like a hip hop artist that

    She just, I'm sorry, they just call it like it is and it's really cool. Like they made up a, they wanted, like the audience wanted them to play another song and they played this crazy show and it was just like a, it was like a strip club or something, bar or something in Canada and it was outdoors, it was very strange. But they wanted them to play another song and they were like,

    came up with the song and it was like on like a toy piano and they were just like ACAB, FTP. They were like, everybody knows the words. And they just like made up a song on the spot and it was pretty special. Like they're cool. They're really cool.

    Scott (1:00:26)

    fucking brilliant I love that I love that I love that

    so like I have to imagine like I know you're in California and you're meeting me like after you would have gotten off of traditional office hours it's like nine o'clock at night where I am

    Do you work seven days a week? Like how do you manage like, cause I know myself, I get text messages, I get emails, I get Instagram messages, whether it's a record I'm putting out, a show I'm putting together, a tour I'm booking, like it is really hard for me to manage my time. I have to imagine with your career, how do you manage that flow?

    Caroline (1:01:03)

    Um, yeah, I mean I used to be seven days a week. Um, and now I kind of take the weekends more or less for myself. I try. Um, I make myself available if something's really important. Um, but I really do try and at least take a day and a half on the week. Like I will sometimes do a little bit of work on Sundays to try and like get ready for the week so I don't come into like an inbox full of, you know, hundreds of trash or whatever.

    But yeah, I mean like a few years ago like Sunday nights I would do so much work I would get so much ready for the week I would have everything ironed out and I kind of scaled back from that because it's like I just Felt a little bit burnt out from never really have

    time to myself or never really having a full weekend. You know if something really important comes up like I will you know or if somebody's doing an interview or somebody needs something like I will obviously do that but I do try and at least take one weekend day and try and not look at my computer or my screens too much or maybe check you know my email two or three times a day versus like you know every hour or whatever.

    which I'm sure just sounds like you don't have work-life balance, that to me is much more balanced than I used to be.

    Scott (1:02:26)

    thing is that we're taking me very long respond to one of your emails so and so I have the same situation and I have my personal email I have my my label email I have my work email for my actual job you know it's like I am constantly checking things so I'm assuming you don't give anyone your phone number that other people you're like you we have not exchanged numbers I'm not texted you because I once that happens and I feel like you're just doomed to like get a barrage of

    Caroline (1:02:29)

    No, totally. Totally.

    Yeah, like I definitely

    Scott (1:02:56)

    and stuff.

    Caroline (1:02:56)

    People

    text me and I really, I try and not do texts unless it's like urgent and I do try and set it a rule from the beginning of a campaign. I'm like, please don't text me. I'm like, once people start texting me, I'm like, I'm like, please don't text me unless it's really urgent. Like if you can email me, I'll get to it. I swear I'll get to it, you know, in this business day. I have one client that I let text me just because

    Scott (1:03:13)

    Yeah.

    Caroline (1:03:26)

    worked with them for so long and it doesn't matter. That person can text me because I've worked with them since like 2006 and they're allowed. But otherwise I really like that's like my one exception to that rule. Otherwise everyone you know I'm like please just email.

    Like, you know, especially younger bands, like, and it goes back to that instant gratification thing, where it's like, don't think younger people email as much as they, they're on their phones a lot more. They're on their phones a lot more. So, you know, those are kind of the people where I kind of need to set boundaries in the beginning where I'm like, just don't, and then they start group text with the band. I'm like, no, this is even worse. Like, no, don't do that. I don't need, like, I don't even have all these four other people's information and they're all coming at me. I'm like, just no.

    Scott (1:03:54)

    Yes.

    Yep. It's,

    I definitely find that most people I work with, most of the bands I work with prefer using Instagram, which is fine. If it's a group chat, I can search for it. But it's so hard to keep track of messages in Instagram. So hard to keep track of.

    Caroline (1:04:25)

    Well that's

    That's

    what I just, for me it's like I need everything in one place. I need to just be able to go back and like, I need to find something. It's like, you told me you're playing a show, I don't know what it is because you messaged me on Instagram. what is that? That's not real life. Fake.

    Scott (1:04:35)

    Yeah.

    Yep. It's hard. It's hard. I will walk

    into a show that I'm promoting and I'll check my phone and I'll see that it's a band's like, hey, can you help us with a show in three months? like, can you email me here because I can't mark this as unread and see it and I've already seen it and I don't have time to respond to you right now.

    Caroline (1:04:58)

    Yeah, no, I'm obviously, I think somebody's just dead.

    Scott (1:04:58)

    Because I'm walking into a show in the next 10 hours. I'm gonna have 15 more messages come in and you're gonna be pushed to the bottom. I don't tell them all that. I just say please email me the information here because I don't I don't otherwise I can't help you.

    Caroline (1:05:08)

    Yeah, like when that happens,

    when that happens, like I don't know if this is passive aggressive or not, but I'll like screenshot a picture of the message and I'll email it to myself and then I'll email them back and I'll be like, oh, you wanted to do this and be like, me communicate here. You're like, because I just, can't like sometimes they won't even reply to the Instagram message. I'll screenshot to myself and be like regarding your show. It might be slight.

    aggressive.

    Scott (1:05:37)

    People give out my number sometimes.

    There are people I've known and they'll give my number out to another band. I'm like, oh please don't do that. Because I don't even like getting phone calls. Like, Des, who does all the sound for me, I had to teach him that when he wants to call me, he has to send me a phone with a smiley face so I know it's not bad news. Because no one calls me but my wife and my kids unless it's bad news. Like, when I manage a call center, everyone's bad news. mean, in retail, it's always bad news. it's, you know, as a teacher, you know, oh there's a phone call for you, the front office. I'm like, that's never good.

    Caroline (1:05:47)

    Yeah, no, totally.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:06:08)

    Like I'm sorry. I get anxiety. I don't want once I talk to you on regular basis on the phone I don't want to get a phone call from you

    Caroline (1:06:12)

    Yeah, no, probably.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, no, it's too much. It's too much. yeah.

    Scott (1:06:19)

    Yeah, don't give up my number.

    People think I left my such-and-such in a venue. I get the number for the orders like I'll ask them I don't give out numbers Without permission ever

    Caroline (1:06:32)

    Yeah, no, totally. Yeah, exactly.

    Exactly.

    Scott (1:06:39)

    I I don't want to take up too much of your time. It's been a little bit over an hour. I mean, you have been an absolute pleasure to talk with, a pleasure to work with. I feel like I could talk to you even longer and learn more and more from you. You should start up a class where you teach people how to do PR. You ever thought about that? You're like, oh, was like, sorry, it's the teacher of me thinking of how to share your knowledge.

    Caroline (1:06:46)

    Yeah, was fun. Thanks, it's been really fun.

    Yeah.

    I

    mean, yeah, not totally. My friend teaches a music business class at Cal Poly and he had a bunch of people come in and I spoke one class of them, but that was enough.

    Scott (1:07:16)

    Yeah, hasn't. I'd like, not doing that. I wish I had majored in something like that. You know, I even did like newspaper in high school, but everyone, you know, it's hard enough when you're already one of you musician, the idea that like, oh, and then you're like going to go to school or something even equally as impractical and hard to break into. You know, the world looks down upon you when you do anything other than the most practical. Oh, there's going to be a computer science. There'll be a job that's perfect. Yeah, such a pain in the ass. I should have. Yeah.

    Caroline (1:07:45)

    It sure

    is.

    Scott (1:07:46)

    I

    let my kids do whatever they want. like be what you want to be. Do what you want to do. I don't care. That's fine. I love you forever. Just just go out and swing for the fences.

    Caroline (1:07:52)

    I mean, it's like, yeah,

    it's like, you know, odds are you're not going to totally do something within your degree anyway. So it's like, or it'll be related.

    Scott (1:08:00)

    I didn't even graduate class 32. So I shouldn't

    be talking as if I chose to like be an accountant. I literally got a degree and what I wanted to get a degree and it was just a more a matter of like

    You know, there was just that aura of like I'm listening to your story from the very beginning. I'm like, look at you going out there, breaking into radio, breaking into all this and like this is sort of stuff that they tell you can't happen. Like it only happens to like so many people. there's always so many music journalists out there. There's only so many people that do this. What makes you think you're special? What made you think you were special? I mean, you are special, Sorry.

    Caroline (1:08:12)

    Yeah, totally.

    No, I mean it was like, it was hard. you know, it always just like, yeah, just like a lot. Well, that's the thing is like, you know, in my, you know, I'm like, lived in New York in my twenties when I was, you know, poor and you know, everyone else was poor and nobody had any money to do anything. And so, you know, all we do was work, like, and I feel like, you know, it was a lot, like I definitely surrounded myself with a lot of people.

    Scott (1:08:42)

    It sounds like you worked your ass off, so.

    Yeah?

    Caroline (1:09:06)

    that were either in the music industry or in bands and everyone kind of wanted to make it in some capacity. So it's like we were all very motivated, you know? And then we all just like got our, you

    and that was it, you know, like.

    Scott (1:09:23)

    And then went back to your

    apartment on the Lower East Side somewhere and said, alright, this is about as big as my old closet in my house that I lived in with my parents, but I'm going to go ahead and suck it up.

    Caroline (1:09:30)

    Yeah.

    No, totally, totally. And I think that there were just a lot of people that I was really surrounded with that were just very, very motivated and very much wanted to do things and wanted to be successful in music in whatever capacity they were doing it. So I feel like it was a really positive time.

    you but I do feel like we all just worked like, and that was the thing in New York that really, when I moved to LA, it was hard for me to understand is like, you know, like when I, when I worked in New York, was like, if you had a show at nine o'clock, you would just, you wouldn't go home. You would stay in the office and do work or you would, you know, get a sandwich at the deli or whatever, and come back and do work until eight o'clock. And then you would take the train to the show and then you'd be out until

    midnight or 1 a.m. and then you would go take the train home and you would start your day the next day you know you know it's like and then when I was here I was like we have a show at 9 o'clock it's 530 and there's like what we do and everyone's like I'm going home

    Scott (1:10:47)

    Let me go right home. Do you want me be working until we go to the show?

    Caroline (1:10:50)

    Yeah, I was

    like very confused by that mentality of like No, you're not all working to your whole office is not working together and like, you know, was like it was like we'll see you there and you're just like Yeah, it felt very strange to me when I first got here and I was like, huh, okay It definitely took me some time to adapt to that

    Scott (1:11:01)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I've lived around enough that cultural changes can be pretty dramatic. They can take you time, both in workplaces and in communities.

    Caroline (1:11:24)

    Yeah, I like, you know, like I'm

    yeah, I mean like I'm from the East Coast, know, Philly, lived in New York, I lived in DC, so it's like, you know, the West Coast was definitely a challenge for me in the beginning of like figuring that out and just...

    You it.

    Scott (1:11:44)

    first phrase West I was like in Oregon for a wedding and I went to like a bar and I was told I was being too loud and talking too fast I'm like it's like you're you're like you're ruining the mellow I was like

    I forget what town I was in like everybody's with their walking around in pajamas like how you doing today? Hello We are we are not on the same vibe at all

    Caroline (1:11:59)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, not totally.

    It's hard. It's really hard. but.

    Scott (1:12:13)

    And then there's just that moment, you know, it's like, it's fine. And I'm a lot, I'm a lot. I'm a guy that walks

    on the left side of the escalator, gets annoyed that you're standing on the left side. You stand to the right, everyone should walk up. I don't understand people that don't like walk up the left side.

    Caroline (1:12:27)

    annoying so annoying i do i do and it bothers me so much i'm just like that one person you're sick yeah

    Scott (1:12:28)

    You understand what talking about.

    so much. Yeah? I was like, what are you doing? Get to the right. The left side is for

    passing on the escalator. Everyone knows this.

    Caroline (1:12:42)

    Yeah, totally. It's wild. Not everybody here.

    Scott (1:12:45)

    That

    whole Northeast thing, it's where we, yeah.

    Caroline (1:12:50)

    Yeah, no, totally,

    Scott (1:12:53)

    Well, thank you again. I appreciate all that you've done I

    Caroline (1:12:56)

    Yes, that's great. Yes.

    Scott (1:12:58)

    Thank you everyone for out there listening. Thank you Caroline for being a fabulous guest. All their info will be on there. So if you want to aspire to have Caroline work for you

    Caroline (1:13:00)

    Alright.

    Scott (1:13:07)

    and make your dreams come true like a Disney warrior that they are, I don't know where that came from. I apologize. That made no sense whatsoever. In any case, reach out to Caroline and Caroline will either help you or they don't help you. Then you know that they didn't like your music because they don't work with people. They don't like music.

    Caroline (1:13:13)

    yeah. Yeah, that's right. Get it.

    Scott (1:13:28)

    And that means you need to go home and give up your dreams.

    Bye.

    Caroline (1:13:36)

    Thank you.

  • Episode 23: Lisa Root of New Noise Magazine

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows.

    After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going, today's guest is one of those people doing that work day in and day out. Today I'm talking with Lisa Root, founder and editor-in-chief of New Noise Magazine, one of the most respected and enduring publications covering punk, hardcore, metal, and alternative music today. Since launching the magazine in 2013, Lisa has built New Noise into a cornerstone of independent music journalism, balancing print and digital media at a time when most publications have gone fully online. Before starting New Noise, Lisa spent over a decade writing, editing, and promoting

    and hardcore world, including her work with Hails and Horns, Loud Fast Rules and AMP magazines. Through New Noise, she's continued to champion emerging artists alongside established acts, keeping the DIY spirit of print media alive with every issue. I first reached out to Lisa not just as a fan of the magazine, but as someone who deeply respects her commitment to community-driven media. What she's built with New Noise embodies the same ethos that fuels Scene Support, lifting up people, stories, and bands that make our scene thrive. Let's dive into how Lisa's kept punk journalism alive in a digital age, what it takes to run an independent magazine today, and why she believes

    print still matters. There we go. Now I got it. How you doing, Lisa?

    Lisa Root (01:42)

    I'm doing great. Thank you.

    Scott (01:44)

    Thank you. Thank you for joining us. So that's a lot going on. And, you know, as I dug into you to like before this, I knew you were doing New Noise obviously. And I like when I read like AMP and Loud Fast Rules I was like, I remember those because I'm almost 50 years old. And, you know, most of my life I grew up like reading Maximum Rocknroll in the early 90s throughout high school. And then like MRR kind of got harder and harder to find. And then, you know, except I lived in the D.C. area and I go to places like Smash

    Lisa Root (01:59)

    Yeah.

    Scott (02:14)

    and

    you know, Commander Salamander, and then eventually in the world Hot Topic showed up. But I'm not, whatever Hot Topic, it's fine, whatever. But I went in there and they had an Amp Magazine I was like, hey, you know what, it's a magazine about punk bands, I don't care what store it's in, I'm gonna buy it. Oh, it comes with CDs. Oh, Loud Fast Rules is like the same thing, but usually little heavier bands. And I was like, I was like, were inexpensive, they were detailed, and the free CD, what the fuck, that was great.

    Lisa Root (02:20)

    Yeah.

    Scott (02:42)

    I'm just happy to be talking to you because I want to hear all about all this. So can we just start in the beginning? Let's get to the root of Lisa root. Like Where did this all come from? How did you start doing all of this? Yeah, I know it's a loaded question.

    Lisa Root (02:56)

    It was all accidental.

    I know I got to get like way back. This was, originally I had moved west to go to college, but, that didn't happen. And when I, instead, I mean, I moved west to go to college, but I was missing a quarter credit, because I was in an accident in high school. So, there was a snafu and getting my, getting all my federal

    and I couldn't go. I couldn't stay in my dorm so we were on a payphone trying to find jobs and places to live and I met the person who became who I started doing the first magazines with and then we so I just got derailed from what I was planning on doing and fell into the magazine publishing world and so we started AMP originally in 2002 or 2003 I can't remember which now and

    Scott (03:30)

    about.

    Lisa Root (03:53)

    That was a completely different era of labels and magazines. It was completely different. I just saw it was really interesting on someone in one of the Facebook groups posted a one sheet for a band. I think it was an Epitaph band. And one of the points, one of the little.

    Scott (03:58)

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (04:16)

    sales points was that they were advertising in hundreds of music magazines and I just hundreds I was like they made me read yeah but and they were like you know independent zines and all this stuff and now

    Scott (04:22)

    100s? 100s?

    Lisa Root (04:35)

    of us are there left.

    Scott (04:38)

    Yeah, I find that baffling because there's you and there's Razorcake that I can think of that are like easily recognizable consistently published You know I go to record stores and I see some DIY zines are out there But they're not their publishing schedule was all over it's not Punk Planet anymore It's not Maximum Rocknroll is like you were the mainstays that I can think of that actually publish literal printed material and that's that's literally

    Lisa Root (04:47)

    takeover.

    Scott (05:03)

    all I can think of, like Slug and Lettuce doesn't print the newspaper they used to do. We have Outsider Magazine here that's like a newspaper that's been going 20 years here in the Hudson Valley, but yeah, this is not a lot.

    Lisa Root (05:12)

    Yeah, even those like local,

    yeah, the local weeklies are so hard to find now too. And those I used to, I still love picking up, you know, any town that I lived in. It was always nice to see those. And those don't seem to really exist anymore either.

    Scott (05:16)

    Yeah.

    I mean I remember when The Onion was still like actually was in print like I would be walking around the streets of DC and pick The Onion up out of a free bin and I could sit there on the Metro and read The Onion on my way to work or to a show or something like that I'm like now it's online like the idea of having a physical copy of something is just non-existent in the print world like I even

    Lisa Root (05:33)

    Yeah.

    Scott (05:51)

    You know, my dissertation is on graphic novels, but I still read comic books, but I hate to say it, I use Marvel Unlimited because I don't have the money to spend and it's just so convenient to walk around my iPad going, what am I reading now? What am I reading now? But I love your magazine being in print, so.

    Lisa Root (06:11)

    I mean, yeah, like failure isn't an option because it's, you know, I've had to really be cautious through everything and not take as many risks or because I really am fiercely, you know, I cling to not just the idea of print. I don't like being on social media.

    Scott (06:11)

    Hahaha!

    Lisa Root (06:37)

    like I still love flipping through AMP and like it's like a graveyard of labels that don't exist anymore or bands that don't exist or some bands that do and then some labels that are still thriving and like it is a documentation of something that maybe could not exist at all or be wiped off and

    you know, originally I'd wanted to be a historian and archivist and do that kind of work because I really think it's important for these, you know, subcultural things to be able to have some kind of record of them and keep it. And so that was, you know, for me with the magazines, it was like this complete snapshot of what labels are around, who's putting out what, what genres and scenes are big, what's happening each issue that we, you know, it used to be monthly.

    Scott (07:29)

    I used to love the scene

    reports that were be in zines like in my like what's happening in your scene? was like, oh, this is so exciting because you know until I could get on the road I couldn't make it to see what was going in Denton, Texas And I really wanted to know what was going on in the Denton, Texas scene and what the shows were happening But I'm a social studies teacher So, you know you got me right there and you know being from DC the whole idea that Dischord have of documenting DC It's part of my labels like we do live shows because like that show mattered to somebody even if only 15 people were there over those 15 people

    Lisa Root (07:37)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (08:00)

    they had that experience that I've had at 15 person shows where like all your worries disappear and for like 30 40 minutes while you're watching this band everything just melts away and capturing that moment has value and what you're doing capturing that moment in print in a physical way because I don't know on the internet we could disappear at any given moment I mean the stuff websites go away they get shut down it's just gone

    Lisa Root (08:12)

    Yeah.

    It does.

    Yeah, when AMP went under, they pulled the website. And so all of that is gone, except for what's in print.

    Scott (08:32)

    there was no

    way to archive or to sell it off to anyone or do anything with that. there was, you're like, I'm not in charge of that at all. So did you want to talk about AMP at all or would you rather focus on where you're at today and leave the past in the past, even though we're both historians?

    Lisa Root (08:36)

    It wasn't at all. I left before it happened. So.

    Let's focus on where we're at today.

    I've talked about where that was and it's such a long time now. A lot has happened. mean it wasn't, it was an acrimonious... When I started New Noise Magazine, I started it with what I had wanted to do, what I realized should be done and how to do it.

    you know, basically I felt that being more genre specific, like being a punk magazine or being a metal magazine didn't make sense that my magazine should be punk, it should be metal, should be indie, it should be hardcore because people have those wide-ranging interests and it should all be housed under underground music. Like people that are into metal are often into punk and hardcore too. Here we are.

    Scott (09:32)

    Lisa, you and I, we are kindred spirits. So same thing,

    that's why I was like, punk hardcore ska and Metal, even like the shows I do, I too was like, it's gonna be a mixed bill, you're gonna have a ska band on there with a youth crew band, and then there be a shoEargasmze band, and then a deathcore band. It's all gonna happen on the same bill because I don't wanna hear five ramonescore bands in a row. I don't wanna hear three grindcore bands in a row. I wanna hear something different. So you and me, are, maybe it's our age.

    Lisa Root (09:44)

    And that's the best show to mix your shows.

    Yeah.

    Yeah,

    I think, yeah, we're the, we're, we are a very special generation, I think. Yeah, I mean, like, the early 90s, there was so much neat shit going on, even beyond punk, you know, we had like the Golden Age of hip hop and, and, and like wean, you know, like weird shit, it was all in our, in our, what we liked, like,

    Scott (10:04)

    We are a special generation, but everything you're dropping, I'm picking up.

    So much. Yeah.

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (10:25)

    I look back, don't think the kids I was running with in high school were necessarily intellectual and stuff like that, but we had a wide-ranging, very interesting intellectual interest in history and movies and art and music. And I think, it's weird because we weren't able to have...

    Scott (10:34)

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (10:44)

    all the information at our fingertips, we had to deal with boredom and how to conquer that and we had to seek out the things we wanted. With music we had to look at liner notes and be like, what else? What other bands would I like from this? just try it.

    Scott (10:57)

    Yes.

    But maybe that's why interest were brought in right like Nowadays kids have the internet and I mean no disrespect to people out there to have it like you can deep dive into something you want or something I'm really interested in this but this is all I can find right now. I met my new friend Lisa they're into x which I don't anything about so I'm just gonna learn from them and so like your experiences were fueled more by the people you engaged with and their willingness to share their odd interests and it's like there were the community

    Welcome the oddity we we celebrated I felt like instead of going oh you're into something odd It's the way that I don't know anything about I don't care about that. I was like oh wow you're into LARP I was like, I don't know what that is explain LARP to me and like, you know

    Lisa Root (11:45)

    No.

    Lark looks fine.

    Scott (11:49)

    It looks fun. I've never done it, but I had a friend that did all that stuff like in the 90s

    and helmets and the battle axes and all that. was like, I thought it was crazy fun that he would share these stories. I never got to engage with it, but I'm like, but you know, I think today we're like, you should all, know, it's, I don't know. It's too easy.

    Lisa Root (11:56)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, there is a homogenized, well,

    everything in art, everything, things aren't bold and colorful anymore. Cars all look the same. Like, we are a much more homogenized society, I think, now than we were back, back.

    Scott (12:17)

    What is that?

    Lisa Root (12:25)

    It's yeah, I mean, it's a world we got right now and we're doing the best with it. yeah, so that's why I am like I am in what I want to do with the magazine. I'm really glad I have such a great crew of people around me because all I want to do is the print aspect of it and I want everything else to just work and I don't want to think about it.

    Scott (12:28)

    I

    It,

    Yeah.

    So

    the digital is like you're doing it because you feel like you have to, but if you didn't have to do the digital, you would just leave it.

    Lisa Root (12:54)

    If I could like pick up a phone and not send emails, I would do that. If I could do everything the way I did it in 2003, I would totally do it that way. But you can't. And I get that. And there are... I mean, there's all kinds of pluses to social media and stuff. I think it kind of just has gotten out of control where it's not...

    a community, you have, you know, just, it's just much more randomized and kind of advertising at you in a weird way than it was when it started. Like nothing, nothing can maintain its coolness for a long period of time. And, you know,

    Scott (13:35)

    Sure. You no longer have

    like, like when I was coming up doing it like really in the early 2000s and like DC there was a Pheer Board P-H-E-E-R and you'd be on there and learn about shows and you'd all talk and it was actually like

    Lisa Root (13:48)

    it.

    Scott (13:51)

    despite the trash talking occurred, there was community being built. Where it was like, oh, I'm gonna post something on Instagram. It was like, oh, look at that. 15 people liked it, but I don't know who they are and they're not communicating with me. They're not commenting. I'm not commenting back. There is no actual dialogue occurring between it and like.

    Lisa Root (14:07)

    Yeah.

    Scott (14:09)

    They're not even choosing to see myself that pops up in their feed, whether they want it to or not per se versus like, know, it's so I hear what you're saying, right? It's, kind of like a disengagement of agency where, know, you actually chose, I want to be in this Bad Religion chat group and talk about Bad Religion with people versus me going, Oh, look at that. I just got a thing that I, Nope. I don't want to see it scroll pass, scroll pass. It's, it's like, yeah, I use it commercials, skipping commercials.

    Lisa Root (14:15)

    Yeah.

    Scott (14:39)

    Go on, go on.

    Lisa Root (14:42)

    Yeah, like, yeah, the whole scrolling thing is just, it's not good. And I mean, and luckily right now I'm in school full time too, so I have to read so many books and so I just, I don't have time to even look at social media for the most part. Every once in a while I will just as like a palette cleanser between like switching gears from magazine to work mode and.

    Scott (15:08)

    I feel that because I unfortunately have to use social media a lot because I'm an online record label. So it's like that's one way. mean I have my advertising even my advertisement with you. I was like I meant to ask you. It's like I know I advertise on your website. Is there a way I can advertise in your print magazine instead? I'd rather do that.

    Lisa Root (15:09)

    But.

    Yeah.

    love anybody that says those words. I mean, obviously it keeps us afloat and it allows me to, you because every penny that comes in goes into the magazine. I'm not independently wealthy, but I'm independently self-sufficient and I would rather all go into this.

    Scott (15:29)

    Hahaha

    Yes.

    Sure.

    Lisa Root (15:49)

    And because there's still things that I'm like, we need to improve this. We need to get a person that can do this job task, you know, and trying to do all those different things that are on the wish list. But I think that a print advertisement.

    in the magazine makes it even more of a resource because if you're reading an article on this band and you see that they're on that label and then you see the other, it's the liner note theory, know, where you're like, but you look at the other things that they're doing, and maybe I should check those out. So I do think there's value in it, but you know, like what I ran up against for, it's getting a little bit better now.

    Scott (16:10)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yes, exactly.

    Lisa Root (16:30)

    it got really hard to when labels were just pulling print ad support away and putting it into I guess social media advertising and different different things was explaining like yeah it's not it's not a value you can track like you can online impressions and things like that but but it has value what we do has value because we're really like

    Scott (16:36)

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (16:57)

    Rather than trying to just be like the coolest magazine out there, know, with like huge spreads and stuff, I am focused on putting as many deserving artists in every issue as possible. So we're really, it's a really dense magazine. We have like over 60 bands in every issue, which is so much, so much to edit. Yeah, so much to like.

    Scott (17:16)

    It's a lot.

    And how do you select your bands? Is it you reaching out or do people, bands, record labels, managers, et cetera, reach out to you? Like what's the process, if you don't mind sharing, of how someone gets the band talked about? And what is your criteria of whether you think a band is someone you want to talk about?

    Lisa Root (17:45)

    I mean, a lot of it comes from the press releases that we get and bands that email us directly. I sort through all the emails and I put together a content spreadsheet sorted by release date where we just put together all the releases we know about. And that is where any of the reviewers can go and review.

    And then, you know, I kind of curate that a bit, but I still make a big pitch list and I send that to writers and allow them to choose their most exciting part from that list. And then I also take pitches from our contributors, our writers, because they're...

    Scott (18:21)

    Lisa Root (18:32)

    you know, they're into all of this and they're doing it for love of music. Cause this isn't like a lucrative thing for any of us, especially on the scale that we're working in trying to cover as much as we do. I don't think, I think a lot of times people don't realize how small we are, but based on how much we are covering every issue.

    Scott (18:34)

    Yes.

    You cover a lot and your magazine

    is very sharp, right?

    You know, it's, you know, I'm trying to, you know, the big three that they might like, Razorcake Punk Planet, and Maximum Rocknroll. Maximum Rocknroll obviously just very black and white, newspaper print. know, Razorcake's got the color covers where everything's black and white inside. Punk Planet used to be, a pretty nice aesthetic around it. But you've definitely got more of the glossy feel to it than the others. And that probably makes people think that you're bigger than you are.

    Lisa Root (19:25)

    Yeah, thank you. Yeah,

    yeah, the gloss and, but on the other hand, especially like during pandemic, all the stores, know, all of our outlets closed. So we didn't have distribution for a while because no one could go shopping.

    Scott (19:43)

    Yeah.

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (19:48)

    But during that period of time, really worked on the distribution. And when things started opening back up, we really worked on that.

    people were more receptive, I think because people were coming out and buying tangible goods again. Things that they were excited about, when things, they were like, my God, I can go to Barnes and Noble. So they were going again. So there was like this like Renaissance in appreciating things like print media. And so like Barnes and Noble came in and up their orders beyond what they were doing before the pandemic. And then I got a...

    Scott (20:04)

    Sure.

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (20:26)

    distribution person that got us into a whole bunch of new outlets nationwide, Canada, Europe, and then a whole bunch of other countries worldwide. And so, yes, we're actually have really great distribution too. And it's something I like, I'm not really good at like blasting out like what we're all doing. And I've never been.

    Scott (20:35)

    Excellent. Awesome.

    Lisa Root (20:49)

    sales kind of person, you know, I've remained kind of the same person I was when I was learning how to do this just from scratch where I'd be like, Hey, you want to have this cool magazine, you know, and people are either receptive to that or not. You know, I don't have like the business speak to do that kind of stuff, but, we are doing really well with distribution and direct sales and

    Scott (21:04)

    Sure, sure.

    Lisa Root (21:17)

    that also is, is, lends to what we do and being a valuable thing to invest, you know, invest in.

    Scott (21:22)

    Yeah.

    And

    so you get most of your press releases, assume, like digital, e-mail. Does anyone still ever send you physical albums to review? Because I know, like Maximum Rocknroll, have to send them two vinyl to review, one for the reviewer and one for the archives. And then I send also Razorcake. And I'm like, well.

    In one level, if I was a reviewer for Razorcake I was like, well, that's kind of payment. I just got a 20, $25 record for free, and I review it, and if I like it, yay, and if I don't, I'll trade it, sell it, or whatever, and that's worth it to do a review for me. Do you get physical copies still from people?

    Lisa Root (21:59)

    I do try to tell whenever we get the physical stuff, let me run this by a specific reviewer. befriend one of our writers who would be into your stuff and send it in directly, because I don't have time to repost something somewhere. I'm doing... Yeah, yeah. So digital, we just say digital is the best. And then if our reviewers would like a physical copy, they can ask for that.

    Scott (22:10)

    Yes.

    You don't have time to resupply it back out again.

    Yes.

    Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

    Lisa Root (22:29)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I can't buy anymore vinyl. I'm tapped out. Like, I got a studio apartment that I'll pay to rent for too much for. don't have... And it's filled with books. mean, like, there's my... There's part of my thesis books.

    Scott (22:31)

    So.

    Yep, no, I get you.

    There's all my my books there Yeah, it's all yeah. Yeah you I understand trust me I have wall-to-wall bookshelves downstairs my house is basically comic books that I you know bought for 15 or 20 years before I went digital books and records It's like physical media. No, I think I don't do physically anymore movies. I don't buy DVDs I have friends that still buy DVDs. I'm like good for you.

    Lisa Root (22:54)

    Yeah, yeah, you know.

    Yes.

    got rid of my movie DVD collection when I moved from, I was renting a house and then moved to this apartment. And I got rid of like my movie DVDs and I'm still in mourning over what I did because there's so many of them.

    Scott (23:17)

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (23:30)

    There was a movie that was like, couldn't get anywhere that I had on DVD called The Fall. And was obsessed with this movie, but then they just put it on movie. Cause they were trying to, like, everyone was like trying to petition Criterion to do a special edition of it. But yeah, I would do that. I would, I would do DVDs again, but.

    Scott (23:50)

    I was that guy that would copy movies on the VHS and TV shows that I loved like The Simpsons religiously because I was afraid that one day they would go off the air and I'd never see them again because I never envisioned the day of streaming.

    Lisa Root (23:56)

    Yes.

    Scott (24:04)

    But I still feel like streaming could disappear. Like, even though I don't buy CDs anymore, I have not gotten rid of the thousand CDs that I have. They're all still stored away someplace relatively safe. Should digital streaming disappear, I have my CD collection still, particularly because so many of the CDs are from small local bands that never are gonna show up on streaming services.

    Lisa Root (24:07)

    Yeah, yeah, that's the important, like, especially with what we're doing, the level that we're doing is that there is a real risk of things disappearing. Yeah, so that's something where I love having having a print magazine.

    Scott (24:31)

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    So what's the process? How many issues do do? Like eight issues a year, I think? Six issues, okay. So like every other month. I mean, it sounds, my guess is like, just understand, you probably like get the issue out, breathe for like half a day and then jump right into the next issue, right?

    Lisa Root (24:47)

    Six issues a year now.

    Well, yeah, I put the issue out. kind of have like part of that week, whatever is left over of that week, I'm just like, I just check my emails for what I need to answer. And then I spend that weekend clearing out my inbox because I get like four or 500 emails a day. So if you turn your back on it for a minute, then.

    Scott (25:21)

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (25:25)

    just screwed. And so then I'll like clear everything out if I get like a certain day where I can just hang out and do that. And then I build up the new pitch list. I file all of the releases I'm hearing about while I'm working on the other issue, update the spreadsheet. And then once I pitch the writers and have them all working, that's when I take a week off from, but I'm not off. I'm just a week from really feeling that.

    Scott (25:47)

    Yes, it sounds like you need an assistant. You

    should get yourself a nice paid intern.

    Lisa Root (25:57)

    No, no, no, this is enough. Honestly, last fall, whenever I started back to school, it really like ate up a lot of my time and I having a really hard time doing the rounds of trying to sell because that's not.

    Scott (26:09)

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (26:16)

    It's not fun. It's not fun work. You have be like, hey, do you want to buy that in the magazine? And then someone doesn't answer you, and then you have to be like, just following up again. Did you want to get it out of this issue? Hey! You to really be in the mood for it. And I feel like if it coincides to when I have PMS or something, I'll be like, well, I don't want to do this. So I find every other thing to do. And then I got into the English program here at Berkeley.

    Scott (26:18)

    Yes.

    Nope. I, I, I can imagine. And. Yep.

    Lisa Root (26:43)

    I just had this distraction where I'm like, I don't have to sell out today because I have to read this or I have to write this paper. And so was that fall whenever I started was our lowest booking issue ever because I just didn't have it in me. And then, so then after the, you know, when spring was kicking up, I was just like, can I still do this? Can I do this? Because I really can't blow it. got this opportunity to go to this.

    Scott (26:48)

    Yes.

    Sure.

    I'm I gotta do this.

    Lisa Root (27:12)

    top English program in the country, you know, and that's going to be my priority. And I was kind of just feeling a little bit like downtrodden. And then I got an email from our new ad person, Chris, who was working for Revolver and AP and all of them. And he's like, do you have ad person? And I was like, do I ever? I was like,

    Scott (27:13)

    Sure, of course, of course.

    Ha ha!

    Lisa Root (27:41)

    It was just a great moment in my career here because I have been looking for the ad person that can do what I've done ever since I started this goddamn thing, you know? so Chris came in and has been working on that. He has, you he knows the people I know more, me plus that, you know? And then, you know, on the website I have like my whole team over there, Addison handles like overseas it and

    Scott (27:44)

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (28:10)

    So like the web and digital side, they're doing a great job with. And so now, now that I have like Chris out there building like keeping, know, continuing our relationships and expanding us, we have a podcast we're doing now, a live series. Yeah, we have some other things that are like in the plans that we're working on to really like, and we're doing like the rough trade events.

    Scott (28:27)

    All right.

    Lisa Root (28:39)

    where every cover that we, like one of the covers that we do every issue, we have the band come in and play at Rough Trade at 30 Rock. And so he's really like opened up a lot of things, but then also freed me up to be able to focus on making a print magazine, which is what I wanted to do this whole time and balance it with school until I graduate in spring. So yeah, things have really come together this year.

    Scott (29:06)

    a lot of great stuff

    so the podcast let's just start with the three things you threw three things at me like that I didn't know much about so podcast are you the host of the podcast no no you know so who's hosting it what's the topical content I'm gonna do me this music obviously so

    Lisa Root (29:11)

    Yeah.

    No, no, no. No, I want to be as in the background as possible with all of this. know, I... Christina Rowitt.

    Yeah,

    Christina Rowatt, does, it's We Wreck Records. She's in Australia, she's delightful. She is an encyclopedia of music knowledge. And so she's talking with artists about like their biggest records and Chris doing our marketing as well has begun to help as well. So they're doing great.

    Scott (29:51)

    Okay, and can people pitch their bands

    to be on that podcast? Was that one of those ones where you're gonna reach out instead?

    Lisa Root (29:57)

    Yeah,

    yeah, I mean they're lining things up on a rolling basis and they've done 13 I think so far could be 14 now this week could be 14.

    Scott (30:07)

    Okay, I'm

    going to check that out. Is it called New Noise or what's the name of the podcast? Okay, so it's WeWreck Records. I knew that's what you said that Christine was her name. Christina. So they work for WeWreck Records and that's the podcast. But it's undergirded by New Noise then? Is New Noise just, yeah.

    Lisa Root (30:11)

    No, it's called We Wreck Records.

    Christina, yeah.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're

    hosting it and streaming it and everything. So yeah, she's in conjunction with us, but she's the mastermind. That is her baby.

    Scott (30:31)

    That's rad.

    Alright, I'm gonna check that out. Everyone else, should check that out too. Okay, what's this live series? Because you know I do live albums, so you just got me excited. You said live, and I'm like, I'm like.

    Lisa Root (30:45)

    Yeah, yeah, we have

    Adam who is in Long Island and he films shows there, know, with multi-camera, all that kind of good stuff and edits them, makes them look great, sound great, and then we put them on the site. You we have a dedicated YouTube channel for it.

    Scott (30:59)

    Awesome and what

    what shows does he how does he like what shows is he done or? Like I know on the 18th if I was him in three days I would be at the sold-out Amityville show for Two Man Advantage's final game Which I just put out there and I just put out hold on wait wait wait I just put out I just put up my first studio album putting out their final seven inch So that's all on me so I can I can't be there

    Lisa Root (31:19)

    He's probably going to be there.

    Nice!

    Scott (31:31)

    I am a huge Two Man Advantage fan. That's why I put out a studio album and broke my like whole ethos. But I already booked a three day thing I called the Hudson Valley Tri Corner for this band Burning Hag from Philly. And I had this ethical problem where if I book a show and I'm running the show, I have to be there to run the show. And if a band like Two Man Advantage calls out to me and says, Scott, we're doing this, I'm like.

    Lisa Root (31:51)

    there.

    Scott (31:55)

    Yeah, I've had this booked for over a month and I can't bail on this band and as such I will put out your record but I will sadly not be at your final game and it kills me like I'm getting text messages all this week like you going you going I was like no no I'm not going so but he's taking video huh

    Lisa Root (32:13)

    I hate all the things I've

    had to miss. Yeah, because I've had to miss a lot since they started back to school. But I'm sure he'll be there. You can look at all the ones he's done. Dead Guy, Drain. My brain just freezes up whenever you're like, what are you? But those are the two most recent ones that we've done.

    Scott (32:21)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Yeah, that's amazing.

    That is awesome. I'll definitely so and is that on a is that video channel available on like your new noise website?

    Lisa Root (32:46)

    Yeah, we post them on there and it's on the New Noise YouTube. And then we're doing another live recording one at this really beautiful home studio in Connecticut where a band will come in and record like three songs, one, three songs. And I don't explain these as well as they would. And then they're edited and put together into a live performance in a studio.

    Scott (32:49)

    Should you

    ever want to do a new noise live album comp or new noise anything on a vinyl? I know a record label that does live albums that would be highly interested in a collaboration with you and that's all I'm gonna say right now because I don't want to push it on this podcast but in a private conversation I would love to chat with you more about this. I would love that a lot too. That's amazing.

    Lisa Root (33:23)

    Yes, yes.

    That sounds like a plan.

    Yeah, that sounds great. I love that. Yeah.

    Yeah, so those are three of the things that we're doing right now. And we have more fun digital content creation stuff in the plans that we'll be discussing more. But yeah.

    Scott (33:53)

    That's awesome.

    My distributor Hostile City in Philadelphia, because I just do my vinyl through there, he actually mentioned if I do...

    Digital like distribution you said there's a lot of money to be made in digital distribution I don't really understand how there's money to be made in that person who's that feel like you put it on YouTube everyone watches it and that's what it is but he claimed that there was so I'm I haven't had a chance to really dig into what that means but the idea of like doing that like yeah Maybe the three of us will get into like a call together As like oh, yeah, I was like, think it's probably more profitable than the vinyl. I was like really

    Lisa Root (34:20)

    I know, let me know. I'm not sure if I know if I'm a lot of money for anything.

    Scott (34:32)

    I was like, I mean, the bottle's not very profitable, let's be honest. It's about as profitable as a print magazine. Let's be honest, right? It's self-sustaining. It's self-sustaining. No, profit. Profit. Y'all are my record mogul. Sorry. Yes.

    Lisa Root (34:35)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're not in the, we're not in the profit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm running a dot org without the dot org. Cause like, this

    is like.

    Scott (34:54)

    was like I make less

    money than I made when I was a teacher I lose money. What did I tell my wife last year that I won't I lost like $4,000 she said well if you golf you probably would have spent $4,000 golfing

    Lisa Root (34:57)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, there's a lot of

    ways to lose $4,000.

    Scott (35:11)

    If you

    just look at it, it's like even when I do shows, you know, and I'll do shows and I feed the bands and I do huge posters and everything. I'm like, yeah, I lost $150, maybe even $200 on that show. But if I'd driven to Baltimore to go see the band, spent the night driven back out more than $200 to see the band. This way I just brought them to my hometown and we had to drive 15 minutes. And I built community.

    Lisa Root (35:33)

    Exactly. Yeah.

    Yeah. You build community. It would be like you were like paying for tickets for, you know, shows or yeah, like a season, the opera or something.

    Scott (35:37)

    Yeah.

    Exactly. is exactly. It's

    just a matter of perspective of how you look at things. All right. So rough trade. Can you explain that for anyone? What's that?

    Lisa Root (35:47)

    Yeah. You're a philanthropist.

    I said you are a philanthropist. Yeah.

    Scott (35:55)

    I'm a philanthropist, wow. That's a new way I would like to describe myself,

    philanthropist. I am funding art and music. I'm a Rockefeller. I mean, I'm in New York, so guess I am a Rockefeller. Can you explain the rough trade in a little bit more detail? Explain what rough trade is for those that maybe don't know what rough trade is.

    Lisa Root (36:04)

    Rockefeller over there.

    UpTrade is a record store and record label and they have a record store in 30 Rock where Saturday Night Live and all that is filmed and they host events in the basement of the record store and I haven't been there yet because I haven't been to the East Coast yet. Well, I'm from there but I haven't been there.

    Scott (36:37)

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (36:39)

    since we started doing it. And so they host events and started working with us. So they carry the magazine in the store. And then we, with the cover artists that are able to do it, we'll set up a date and event. you know, with like purchasing the magazine and the ticket and sometimes there's bundles and and the record, the new record that they have is like the magazine and the record that they're selling is your ticket to the event. buy it.

    Scott (37:04)

    Yes.

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (37:09)

    that through Rough Trade. And then we have usually a live performance Q &A and like sign-in.

    Scott (37:17)

    That's amazing. And who have you done so far for that? Like, is that something pretty new you've done, right?

    Lisa Root (37:22)

    Yeah, Dead Guy We have Biohazard coming up. We have thrice coming up.

    Scott (37:29)

    Biohazard one of the very first shows I ever went to I was like 10th grade and They had just come out with punishment on the MTV

    Lisa Root (37:34)

    Scott (37:42)

    And they were playing The Rage in Baltimore and I was working at Roy Rogers. So I know it was like just turned 16. Right. And I convinced my girlfriend at the time, Michelle Wofsy, Hey Michelle, if you're listening that we're going to drive up to the show and we drove up there. And it's the first time I saw Chelsea cuts and there was a local Baltimore band called next step up and Sheer Terror played. And like my girlfriend got banged up in the pit and they pulled her up on stage.

    Lisa Root (37:42)

    Yeah.

    Thank you.

    Scott (38:11)

    and they took us in the green room, which was like the basement is a dive bar in Baltimore and God it was such a great experience like I have I am like it's I still have that t-shirt I bought a size big enough the lot me to grow into it for my 16 year old self because because I'm like almost a hundred pounds heavier than I was and Yeah

    Lisa Root (38:16)

    Damn!

    Yeah, smart.

    Yeah, you know, like all the t-shirts I have, like my oldest ones or whatever, bought

    like the real tiny ones, and I'm like, fuck, I really didn't think you were through.

    Scott (38:38)

    I I literally think

    I would have probably been wearing a medium or large like, all we have is a double X and like, I'll buy it. And I just wore it I have that shirt still and I wear it all the time. like.

    Biohazard has always had this soft spot of my heart because it's my it's my first hardcore show like prior to that I've been a metal kid and and I guess you could say heart biohazard is more metal but sheer terror play next step up it it was Chelsea cuts it it was like nothing I'd ever seen I'd gone to stadiums and seen Metallica and Iron Maiden and Slayer but I had not been to that and I was like Yeah, my first show

    Lisa Root (39:02)

    Yeah.

    And you said that was your first show? Wow.

    Scott (39:17)

    That was my first show. And then like my first punk show was to see the Meat Men in DC and then there were two bands I never heard of. So I sat outside and didn't see the two opening bands. This would have been 93, some bands called Pennywise and Offspring that I never heard of. It was at the old 930 club and I didn't go inside and I'm like, what an asshole I am. What an asshole I am. need to, it's like, I always see opening bands and I was like, God damn it. So.

    Lisa Root (39:33)

    Yeah.

    One of my first shows that I got to see, would say would be, was it 91 or 93, was Fugazi and they played it in state college, because from Pennsylvania. And I lived in a very, very small town. Yeah, but they were putting on shows, and so I went to see Fugazi

    Scott (39:58)

    Yeah. Yeah, and you're a Penn State, yeah.

    Lisa Root (40:07)

    They have the Fugazi archives on Dischord, on the Dischord website, and they're digitizing all of them. And that show date, it was 93. They have like the college newspaper. I was right up front, pressed up front, and they have a picture from the newspaper. You could see me like pressed up right under Ian. And they interviewed me in the newspaper. So there's like the little article, but it's the one of them that they haven't digitized yet. So I just keep going back.

    Scott (40:09)

    Yes. Yes, yes they do.

    Lisa Root (40:37)

    to the site like, come on. Come on. I can understand, like, you know, I'm sure there are like bigger ones and everything like that, but this has been like six years now.

    Scott (40:41)

    Come on! That's amazing.

    They

    are such archivists. It's and I oh yeah, it's right here like the DC hardcore DC post hardcore whatever you want to call it the way they treated each other the ideas the the ethical qualities of hardcore like those are the things that like I carry inside of me I just did a show at The Black Cat in DC for this band called 504 Plan

    Lisa Root (40:53)

    Yeah. And that is just like.

    the ideal.

    Scott (41:18)

    They just graduated high school and they all had learning divergences so they were called 504 Plan. Loved the live, they did a live and dead live outside of the studio side B but then this one song where they like introduced themselves by their neurodivergences. It's like, hi, my name is Declan. I have dyslexia and executive functioning disorder but watch this. It's just so great. And Ian bought the record at the show and...

    Lisa Root (41:34)

    you.

    I love them.

    Scott (41:44)

    I tried to reintroduce myself going, hey, I interviewed you when I was like a junior in high school for my school paper in Fairfax, Virginia about, know, and he's like, I don't remember. was like, I'm sure you don't, but like, I'm just letting you know. It mattered to me a lot back then.

    Lisa Root (41:58)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    The fact that he, like, lets people come into his home all the time is just... Like, I'm glad we got that.

    Scott (42:06)

    Yes!

    He's just

    yes. Yeah, it's it's it's everything that I I'm not able to do all the things that he did I But like the ideas that I have behind my record label documenting the history treating artists fairly Making it about the music like that is my goal. Like you said you'd rather not do the digital stuff, right? I don't handle the digital stuff. I like I told that's like I don't want to deal with your smear streaming services

    Lisa Root (42:37)

    Yes.

    Scott (42:38)

    help

    you put the record on Bandcamp if you want but like I don't want to deal and I don't care if you don't want to put it out digitally I don't care I'm putting out physical things yeah

    Lisa Root (42:50)

    Yeah, yeah.

    And I feel like, yeah, I feel like that we came from a generation and that kind of ethos that is still in us and you just can't, you'll never beat it out us, you know?

    Scott (43:04)

    Yeah, it's hard

    to get rid of that. Like I want to hold it in my hand. You know, like the idea of I was listening to a podcast today. was like, go to band camp, those digital albums. Like, why would I buy a digital album? I mean, I love to give money to a band, right? I love to help, but like.

    Lisa Root (43:10)

    Yes.

    Scott (43:24)

    I mean, that same digital album is available for streaming and if it's digital, you know, how many computers have I gone through? My first iPod I had when I was 30 is gone. Like, I don't want to own digital files. I don't trust that they're gonna like survive whatever not new virus or computer failure I have. I don't want them.

    Lisa Root (43:38)

    I'm not organized enough.

    Yeah, I don't know where, like I don't file things well. Personally, I should be better at it and everything, but that's what I can do. do what I can, and yeah.

    Scott (44:00)

    So when did you start New Noise? What year was it? 2000.

    Lisa Root (44:06)

    2013.

    Scott (44:08)

    That's a long time. That's 12 years.

    Lisa Root (44:17)

    Yeah, mean, I think I started like, think whenever I like put out the first issue of the magazine, I ever like was 25.

    Scott (44:28)

    Wow, that's amazing. How much has it changed over the course of those years? What would you say?

    night and day.

    Lisa Root (44:37)

    In a

    lot of ways, there is a lot of things that's And there are like, there's labels like Epitaph and stuff that I worked with on that first issue that I'm still working with now. And there's lifers, there's people that are in it for the right reasons. And you always stick with them.

    Scott (44:54)

    Yep.

    Lisa Root (45:00)

    there's like, and I, I, maybe I'm biased about California and stuff, but a lot of the labels out here in Northern California have always been really supportive of what, of the magazine. I think it also has a little bit to do, they've met me in person and know like, what, like, oh yeah, she's, she's a real deal, you know? Like I'm not.

    Scott (45:20)

    Your magazine is inexpensive. It's only like $4.99?

    Lisa Root (45:24)

    Well, the flexi issue is $9 now, and non is $8. I had to rate. Yeah, like my flexi cost January of last year went up 30%. And print and paper, especially like it never went back down. It got hyped up during the pandemic when there was all like, there was like.

    Scott (45:28)

    That's still really cheap.

    Yep.

    Lisa Root (45:52)

    paper shortages, was like a some kind of strike in wherever like there was like yeah there was like a big paper shortage thing I wouldn't have known about if it weren't for that. Then there was shipping problems, supply chain and all of those costs went up and they never went back down.

    Scott (46:12)

    They rarely do. It's one of the things I had to explain to my daughters. I keep telling people that inflation's gotten better. say it sounds like, well, inflation getting better doesn't mean that prices go down. means that you stop growing up less. Prices rarely go down. Once they spike and if the company thinks they can still make consumers pay it, they rarely go back down.

    Lisa Root (46:14)

    No, they rarely, yeah, once they're like that, people are paying it. So.

    Yeah, and I really don't feel like big industry is being told right now that they need to serve the people by the powers of being in this world. I don't know. I'm not an expert on economics, but I feel like this is a free for all of deregulation and guardrails being taken off of every industry possible.

    Scott (46:52)

    No! No! No! No!

    yeah.

    It's it's I you

    know like on one level say it's a libertarian dream, but at the same time I would say even a libertarian be like whoa This is a little bit much like this is more like crony capitalism. This is this is this is beyond the idea of free markets It's more of a it's not even free. It's Yeah, play the game mob rule sort of stuff

    Lisa Root (47:15)

    Oops, yeah, think it's probably more nightmares.

    Scott (47:31)

    It's yeah, but I love that you put the flexes in that reminds me of like AMP Magazine and Loud Fast Rules used put the CDs in there and I used to love those CDs because like there are bands I Wouldn't have heard half the time. I'm like, okay, and I might not have given them a chance Yeah, I was like

    Lisa Root (47:38)

    Yes, yeah, yeah. They were so fun to together. Yeah. Yeah, and people were really into that. I feel

    like people would still be into it too. I don't know how many people are playing CDs or anything, but yeah, I've thought about it now and again. Maybe we should switch to that, but I love doing the flexies. It's really cool to be like, I put out a record. An artist I love.

    Scott (47:52)

    Yeah.

    The flexes are great. I love the flexes.

    And CDs are such a crap shoot because I bands asking me about it all the time. I mean, if I still had an older car, I would still have CDs. But as soon as I bought a new car that didn't have a CD player, that was pretty much it. My computer doesn't have a DVD player anymore. Yeah, so it's like, you know, I've always had vinyl, but vinyl just kind of continued to be the constant.

    Lisa Root (48:22)

    still a CD player and I never use it.

    Scott (48:33)

    I had CDs because I could play them in my car. An eight hour ride trip. Put them in my car. I'm a big booklet of CDs. I'll just put them in. It's great. Same thing when I had tapes. I used to carry a tape case of like 24 tapes in the front seat of my car. I'm putting tapes in. was like,

    Lisa Root (48:42)

    Yes.

    Yeah, I still have my

    last tape case that has a nice little selection of tapes, I along the line lost most of those, too. I think I still have the booklet with a whole bunch of CDs somewhere, though. I've just had to downsize so much as it got more expensive to live in the Bay Area. So I went from being able to rent a house to now being in a little apartment.

    Scott (49:17)

    I can only imagine so like I'm a full-time doctoral student so I'm on a full stipend in a scholarship and I'm not allowed to work so like I have to only take the money they give me I can work during the summer and technically doing the label is not work so

    Lisa Root (49:26)

    Wow.

    That's

    exciting. What are you doing your doctor with?

    Scott (49:40)

    So the technical title is Curriculum and Instruction. The subcategory is Society, Equity, and Justice. And you had mentioned reading earlier and I just finished my pilot study where I had students create their own graphic novels prior to writing an essay as a preparation for the Regents exam. So they use the same

    primary sources they would use for the essay, but they did it in a graphic novel format. And some of the things I'm claiming I noticed, I'm waiting for review of my pilot study. So if anyone out there in my world is listening, it's supposed to be that they demonstrated ethical representation and empathy. So for instance, it's one thing to write genocide in a paper, but when you illustrate it, how do you illustrate it in a way that doesn't sensationalize trauma?

    Lisa Root (50:17)

    Yeah.

    Scott (50:32)

    it's one thing to name an indigenous tribe, but if you have illustrate it, how do you illustrate it in a way that is not a stereotype? Additionally, I noticed that students, when they just wrote each paragraph, they're like, primary source one says this, primary source two says this, primary source three says this, with maybe a transitional sentence connecting them. But when they did it in graphic format,

    It was more narrative. was metaphor. There was symbolism. There was sarcasm. There was contextualization that was all in there. So that was my pilot study. And then my, once that's done, I'm allowed to move on to my dissertation proposal and I don't have a question yet, but the broad topic is how to use nonfiction graphic novels to engage in historical empathy for marginalized histories.

    Lisa Root (51:05)

    camera.

    Wow, that is fascinating.

    Scott (51:28)

    So that's

    where I'm at right now. So that's what I'm working on during the days I'm not doing this.

    Lisa Root (51:33)

    Yeah. Like we had said before the podcast, I'm just really fascinated and such a supporter of kids that have grown up in an online world that got shut down by a pandemic because they are a generation that deserves.

    Scott (51:47)

    Yes.

    Grace.

    Lisa Root (51:56)

    Grace, yeah, grace, understanding, and yeah, and the empathy exercises and things like that. I think they're fantastic because my experience being in college right now with them is they are really wonderful human beings that get maligned by all these other generations that are just fighting with each other over stuff. And these kids haven't known anything but that and are just incredibly brilliant.

    Scott (51:58)

    Grace.

    Yes.

    Lisa Root (52:25)

    funny unique individual today.

    Scott (52:25)

    And tired of being told that everything

    they do has no value and that the ways they behave has no value and I'm like gosh, it's My and sorry mom if you're listening, but my mom will go on and on about kids today and I'm like

    I sat in front of the TV for six hours every Saturday shoving chocolate covered sugar bombs into my mouth while watching cartoons. And then when that was over, I went to my room and I would play Excitebike on my Nintendo for another four hours. And then when that was over, I'd say, mom, can we go to Blockbuster and rent a movie? So it wasn't like, yes, and I was a reader. I was a pretty voracious reader, but like.

    Lisa Root (52:54)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (53:06)

    I was also kind of quiet kid. I didn't go outside a lot. I wasn't good at sports and I just liked to engage in things I enjoyed. And I try not to like malign kids for what they like and what they enjoy. And like we have to assume that it's bad because that's not what we did. And I'm like, no.

    Lisa Root (53:18)

    Yeah, for what they enjoy, and if it's not.

    Yeah.

    Scott (53:28)

    I try very hard. think the most difficult part because being a civics teacher history teacher is that my oldest kid be like dad everyone's saying this I'm like what's everyone like those are the sort of things and like how do you look at social media and diagnose it and I've taught it to be a vertical reader which means that like you look at it and then you click on different things and you try and diagnose you know who what where why and stuff like that so you like an article you investigate deeply into who wrote it and why they wrote it

    it

    in the perspective before you value it. So, but she'll somebody's like, dad, there's this thing and you have to do X, Y, and Z now. And I'm like, was like, yeah, that wall's actually been around for 15 years. So the people posting and trying to make it like a big to do, I don't like it, but it's not new, but the way the tick tock you sent me presented it, it made it sound like it was just done. So it's, it's that sort of stuff that I struggle with.

    Lisa Root (54:18)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, and I mean...

    Complaining about the next generation goes back to like play-doh, you know, it's a lot of yeah, it's what we do. So yeah, so that's why I think I'm like even more defensive. Like it's been a very strange time to be in college and see it, especially being in a university that is under threat of attack, you know, by our own fucking government and seeing these kids working through that with this grace and everything. It's just made me like, they are.

    Scott (54:29)

    It's what we do.

    Lisa Root (54:53)

    they are who I want to champion because I just I am everything I see in the world that is so like hideous, weird, ugly, ignorant, know, disrespectful and just mean and everything. I see the opposite every time I walk onto that campus and I'm walking around with these kids. And, you know, sometimes if I'm walking through, just kind of eavesdrop on their conversations and I'm like, God, these kids are so fucking cool. And

    Scott (55:22)

    And they're so positive.

    Lisa Root (55:23)

    Yeah, yeah, they're happy and

    Scott (55:25)

    So positive.

    Lisa Root (55:26)

    yeah, and and they're not They're they're not unable to read like they're reading And and like I'm reading very difficult text for me who has lived a life and has a lot of what we like things that I can recall and

    associate and they don't have that and they are like the takes that they have on this like, you know philosophers and critics and theorists where I'm like Shit you kids are so smart. So that I yeah, I I'm not worried either I'm actually quite positive that that they'll make a difference and you know

    Scott (56:04)

    I'm not worried. They're fine. Yep.

    I mean, my daughter turned 17 and started college on the same day. Like, they're on their

    ball. But you know, like the work they do now is harder than anything you and I did in high school. Like.

    Lisa Root (56:18)

    Yeah.

    yeah.

    Scott (56:24)

    I mean the stuff I was teaching my middle school kids was stuff I never would have done even when I was in high school and I'm like, oh they don't do this. I'm like, I didn't do anything. I don't remember ever doing homework. And I grew up in Fairfax County, one of the best school districts in the county, like right outside of DC and then best school districts in the country. And I'm sure I weren't well, but like, I don't remember like stressing and these kids stress. They try like the ones that try, try so hard is freaking ridiculous. So.

    Lisa Root (56:54)

    Well, I we were limited in the resources that we had. think now with the internet, with your phone, you're just no matter if you're working or not, you're supposed to be on the clock in whatever it is you're doing and available all the time. it's, you know, that demarcation of like even nine to five is gone.

    Scott (56:59)

    Yes.

    Yeah

    Well, and that's why it's so fascinating, having been a teacher, right, is like, when I was on the clock, I was on the clock. I I worked from the moment the school day started to the end. Now I spend 10 hours a week in the admissions office of my school, and there's like downtime to talk to my coworkers.

    There was downtime to run and grab a coffee if I wanted to real quick. I had to bring a thermos in my classroom because I never had downtime. Prior to that, I managed coffee shops and I was a server and I had a lot of jobs in high-paced environments where you didn't get breaks. You went to work and you worked every second of the day. And I'm like, does it have to be that way? Can you enjoy? I don't know, does it?

    Lisa Root (57:54)

    No.

    I don't know. I wish I knew because I feel like I am constantly working. Everyone's like, you know, I feel really bad because I haven't been going to shows and being out at all like since like school started and stuff and you know, and I feel bad because I just really can't now, you know, because I have another side job to the magazine and then

    Scott (58:23)

    You're a full-time student

    you have the magazine right that's a lot of work

    Lisa Root (58:30)

    Yeah, and then

    pet sit on the side, you know, kind of, that's like, I make pets sit. I watch people's animals. Today I don't have any pets, but yeah, Berkeley's, Berkeley's very wealthy and people love their animals, so I have like a little crew of dogs that will like stay with me, or, and then every day at noon I walk between like one and four of them. take

    Scott (58:34)

    What's on the side?

    I was a dog walker in Annapolis when I went to college in my 30s and I made more money than I did waiting tables. So Annapolis is a very wealthy city and they pay you lots of money to walk their dog at noon for them. And like it was a way to stay in shape and I would have my flashcards and study for classes and like this is phenomenal.

    Lisa Root (59:00)

    No!

    Yeah.

    Yeah, it gets me off the computer, gets me, know,

    it allows me to adjust my eyes to outdoors and it's just, and I enjoy giving people like the peace of mind to know that when...

    or on vacation that their animals are just getting getting spoiled and revered because I'm just an animal lover and so it was something I kind of fell into accidentally and that's been what has allowed me you know keep pay my rent save I have savings from it you know I take my mom on vacation every year you know and things like that so but it's also like I can't go out because I've got like three dogs at my house right now

    Scott (59:48)

    Yeah.

    Sure, sure. Now you can't leave three doc now. Absolutely understand, absolutely understand. So.

    Lisa Root (59:58)

    Yeah, so if I have one of the three things

    that, like, once I graduate, I'm going to, like, dive back into being a social butterfly again fully. I'm going to, like, take vacations and do all those things. But until spring, until I, like, write my gigantic thesis and graduate, hopefully with honors, whoo-hoo! Yeah, I'm...

    Scott (1:00:21)

    Mm-mm.

    Lisa Root (1:00:25)

    just a little slug. I'm not a bookworm, I'm a book slug.

    Scott (1:00:26)

    I get it.

    It can get tiring. I overwhelmed myself this month in October. I four or five shows I booked and then I agreed to be the stage manager of a festival for two nights and then I'm also flying down to the Fest in Florida and I'll be gone for four days. So I'm trying to manage all of that in one month while working.

    Lisa Root (1:00:50)

    I wish I were going.

    I canceled going. I had my hotel booked for Fest, but then with the FAA, I'm really nervous about flying across the country and getting stuck because I have to be back for classes. And also it's kind of like where all my big papers and stuff are due for this semester. yeah, so I'm like, I a slip this year and I'm really bummed about it.

    Scott (1:00:54)

    no.

    Sure.

    I get it. And it's...

    And we have like, you

    know, the government shutdown right now too. So all the, uh, so like I was a fly out next Thursday. We'll see what happens. I'm taking, uh, my youngest daughter with me because they're best friends in Florida. So was going to drop her off to be with her best friend as a surprise. So, you know, and I'm like, I'm hoping it all works out. Um, but yeah, I get it. I get it. Uh, was it Camp Punksylvania Yeah, I've been going there now for the last four years or so. And the first year I went there, I had to leave early cause I had a final paper due on Monday.

    Lisa Root (1:01:33)

    So, let's talk more than phone.

    that's cool.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:01:48)

    And

    I tried to get it done before I went to the, but I couldn't. And so like, you know, I think I stayed out for one or two bands on Sunday and I was like, I gotta go. I gotta drive home. I gotta pay Purdue. I tried to get it done, but I haven't had a chance to and I just gotta go. Something's gotta give somewhere.

    Lisa Root (1:02:08)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. I gotta do like two group projects. got like, yeah, papers and tests. And I just, I can't keep up as is. I'm doing my best. keeping up. I'm doing it, but it's hard. It takes every bit.

    Scott (1:02:27)

    My buddy Andrew runs Swamp Cabbage Records, plays in Vicious Dreams. He told me once when he was going to law school that they played Fest and he was like, yeah, we had to play Fest, but the entire day that everyone's outside enjoying Fest, I'm in the hotel working on some sort of law thing I have to do. And then I stop, go play, and then I go back to the hotel and I work again. And he was like, was the saddest Fest I've ever done. And I was like, I'm sorry. He's like, it's okay.

    Lisa Root (1:02:51)

    Yeah.

    Yeah,

    my friend and I were talking about it and she like has to like use up all of her time off. So she's like, I'm gonna have to just be on work meetings. And we were talking about, we're like, let's skip this year and in the next year for sure go, but you have double. Yeah, I love Fest though.

    Scott (1:03:13)

    Go back next year so we can hang out next year.

    I'm surprised we haven't run into each other sooner, actually.

    Lisa Root (1:03:20)

    Yeah, I've gone to

    most of them.

    Scott (1:03:24)

    I've gone for the last probably eight years I would say so it was yeah I it was always a balance of time and money time and money once my kids were older and it was

    Lisa Root (1:03:31)

    sorry.

    Yeah. For us, it's

    expensive to fly across the country. I used to love going when we did the pre-fest. I loved pre-fest. It was in Ybor City. That was just so much fun. I really loved Ybor City. It was such a neat, I think they did that two or three years. And so it would be like a whole week. And it's hard to, you know, it's hard to do a whole week like in Hawaii. Yeah.

    Scott (1:03:45)

    Yep.

    Yep.

    It's hard to do all that. But before

    I go to Fest, I would go like my buddy Craig did Foreign Descent. So it's like the Monday before Fest, he takes four or five bands that are all, you know, international bands and he does a show in Orlando at Will's Pub and it's no local bands, it's all international. It's like, okay, you know what? I don't get to go to Fest, but I'm gonna go see Foreign Descent and I'm gonna see like five kick-ass bands that are playing Fest and yeah, I gotta go pick it up and teach tomorrow, but it's fine.

    Lisa Root (1:04:33)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:04:34)

    That's also the hard part. Being a teacher, man, it's not easy to get off of work sometimes. I didn't work. I worked in a small private school, which made it harder because we didn't have like regular substitutes. So just taking the day off is a pain in the. Yeah.

    Lisa Root (1:04:46)

    Yeah, yeah. I was wanting to get into teaching. That's what I want to do whenever I'm supposed to be retired. because I want to be

    Scott (1:04:56)

    Sorry, sorry when you're retired

    I was like I work so hard when I was a teacher

    probably like you being an editor. So do you write at all or do you focus on doing the editing and the organization or are still actively engaged in writing stuff?

    Lisa Root (1:05:13)

    I occasionally will write something, but I don't get an opportunity to do it nearly enough. like every once in a while I'll tackle like a cover story if I can. But right now I'm reading and writing so much for school and just, but I really do like.

    Working with all of our writers especially, because one of the things that I always wanted to do is have a place where new writers could get their foot in the door. So I really like working with writers at all levels and helping develop their voice and confidence in what they're doing and give suggestions. I'm really good at revising things and editing and being like, you know, this paragraph would work better up here and things like that.

    Scott (1:05:48)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah,

    yeah.

    Lisa Root (1:06:06)

    I'm always

    happy to this kind of thing and really like supporting our writers. Yeah, so I like doing that. But yeah, between all the editing of, you know, over 60 bands, every other issue or every issue and then, you know, I'm starting to tackle a 60 page thesis. So I just know our writers will do a better job than I will at this point. think. Yeah.

    Scott (1:06:09)

    That's awesome.

    Yes.

    Yeah.

    Sure, I get it. So

    have you covered it? What's the band that you covered? Like, my God, I'm fucking covering this band. I am so stoked. Like what's that band that you covered that you're like, fuck yeah, I'm like so.

    Lisa Root (1:06:48)

    I mean, there's been so many of them. I can't really name one because it's like a constant thing every issue. You know? Yeah, I mean, when we got to do an Avail cover with the Flexi, was like personal, that was like teen me going, eee!

    Scott (1:06:59)

    Sure, I get it, I get it, yeah, I feel that.

    my favorite band of all time. I'm from Northern Virginia, DC area, right? And okay, so when they did the reunion show in Richmond, right? The tickets were going on sale. Tickets went on sale like 10, I was there too. Tickets went on sale 10 o'clock. My class, my third period class started at 9.50. I wrote my credit card number on the board. I had all the kids create logins.

    Lisa Root (1:07:22)

    Okay, yeah.

    I was there.

    Scott (1:07:45)

    to on their phones to buy me tickets. And I was like, I will cancel this credit card in 24 hours after the tickets have gone through. So I don't care if any of you think you're gonna steal my credit card information, but every one of you is gonna try and buy Mr. P Avail tickets, because that's how important this is to Mr. P. Mr. P needs this. And we didn't get any.

    Lisa Root (1:07:54)

    Yeah, they try, Claire.

    Scott (1:08:06)

    My wife was on like three computers my buddy Jason was on three and then my buddy Jaeh on his shit phone Hit manage you get four and I ran out the hall up and down the hall the school Opening every room of every classroom screaming Avail and went back and taught my class

    Lisa Root (1:08:25)

    it.

    Scott (1:08:27)

    So yes, yes, yes.

    Lisa Root (1:08:30)

    And that was like whenever when I was on said payphone in the 90s trying to find a job and a place to live because I couldn't get into my dorm. The reason that I met my friend that I started the magazine with was I had an Avail sticker on my car and it started the conversation.

    Scott (1:08:44)

    the bass player in my band in DC. I met him because I was managing a Caribou coffee and I was taking garbage out and I had Avail patch on my hoodie and he had just moved here from Missoula, Montana and he saw the Avail patch and like, huh, this guy must be cool. And he literally followed me into the coffee shop and got a coffee and then just started talking to me and then I offered him a job and then we hit the bass player in my punk band and it's all because I had the Avail patch on the back of my hoodie.

    Lisa Root (1:09:11)

    Yeah,

    Scott (1:09:13)

    So yes.

    Lisa Root (1:09:14)

    so that was, yeah. And it was, um, the flexi track that we got was a live recording from the show. But they're all such old grumps, uh, and none of them was happy with any of the songs and they, like, tried to, like, bail. And I was like, you're not allowed. I got, I got so salty at the manager. like, you can't do that.

    Scott (1:09:26)

    course not.

    Come on now, stop it.

    Live at the bottom

    of the hills like my favorite album. It's like my favorite live album like it's so good so

    Lisa Root (1:09:43)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah,

    Dixon was the one that, like, I was listening to constantly right before I moved west and started my life. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, yeah. But all of everything that, yeah, I'm Avail to the end. So I think that was, one of the flexes I was really excited about. I was really excited that we got to do a Lemonheads flexe. It's a very weird one. I'm like, I love...

    Scott (1:09:48)

    Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You see Dixie tattoos on people everywhere. Yes. So was it?

    That's so good too.

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (1:10:11)

    Evan's weird, I love, wonderful musician. Yeah, I mean, we've gotten to do quite a few that I've just been really stunned and excited about doing, but.

    Scott (1:10:26)

    So I don't want to take up too much more of your time. Is there any other cool rad things you want to share about what's coming forward or anything you want to share about like dopedness that I didn't ask about because it's hard to do research on DIY stuff because even though you said everyone thinks you're big, you're actually relatively small in comparison to say.

    the major capitalistic world we live in, but very important. It's hard to get like a full grasp of everything that you've done. Yes, you know, yeah.

    Lisa Root (1:10:55)

    We're a staff, but I think we do a lot. That's what I mean. We're just a real small,

    little staff of people that just kick ass. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (1:11:03)

    No, I was trying to say that without being disparaging, like you are small but amazing. Like it's, you're a

    mastodon of awesomeness, but you're just a small crew.

    Lisa Root (1:11:11)

    Yeah, like we're selling, like I think

    we're printing and selling more copies than, you know, know, majorly funded ones. So yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (1:11:21)

    That's awesome. I apologize

    for not recognizing that. So that's not what I meant to do. Yeah.

    Lisa Root (1:11:29)

    I think we got some really cool shit coming up. We're going to be announcing our new cover and Flexi tomorrow. think people are going to be really excited about. I'm looking at it on my desktop right now, the mock-up of the cover, and I'm really excited. And one of our sponsors of our podcast is Eargasm that makes...

    Scott (1:11:30)

    Yeah.

    Lisa Root (1:11:46)

    earplugs,

    really cool ones, and they sent me a nice big box of them, so anyone that subscribes starting tomorrow with this will get a free pair of earplugs. They're not cheap ones either. I gotta look at the MSRP on these, but they're like really good ones. have a... Yeah, I have mine on my phone they sent me before, and we'll have a...

    Scott (1:12:06)

    I used to buy eargasms and I kept losing them all the time and I was like screw it I can't keep spending money on this.

    Okay

    Lisa Root (1:12:15)

    these and it's funny because whenever I'm like talking to people and I'm like at a show and I'm going like this I think people think I'm like pulling out drugs and I'm like it's your ear plugs. I'm doing nose candy I promise but it does.

    Scott (1:12:27)

    That's exactly what it looks like. my eargasms comes

    in a very similar, but it's more stout. The problem is that the thing gets stripped. And so I'll put them in there and then like I'll go to a show and I'm dancing around and then it falls off. I have just the lid hanging on my keys. And I'm like, well, that's not helpful.

    Lisa Root (1:12:35)

    Yeah.

    These ones have it

    yet. Yeah. And I take them out and put them in like in between because, you know, but yeah, I get the weird looks and like, it's not COVID. But yeah, so we're going to be offering those with subscriptions till we run out. And then yeah, we have some cool covers coming up that I'm really excited about. And then we're just getting ready for 2026.

    Scott (1:12:48)

    Yeah.

    I am super stoked. mean, I could probably talk to you for hours, let's be honest, but like, you know, I try to keep these podcasts about an hour long. You've been so gracious. I know your schedule is incredibly busy. Your time is incredibly valuable. So I can't thank you enough.

    Lisa Root (1:13:24)

    God damn right.

    Scott (1:13:29)

    Thank you enough for being a fellow Avail

    fan For being here super fan You know, I think that's how I pick people on the podcast Tim from Phameless Records was on here and we both also bonded on Avail and the last time I saw him I gave him my Avail seven inch where Tim was actually the drummer and Brian Stewart was still singing and he's like you're giving this me I was like I've had it for a decade It's time for someone else to love it

    Lisa Root (1:13:33)

    Super fan. Love Tim Burr.

    Scott (1:13:58)

    I was like, it's hard to find. So I love you. You've always been so kind to me. So it's time for you to take your time with it.

    Lisa Root (1:13:59)

    You bet.

    that's so nice. Absolutely. Absolutely.

    Scott (1:14:08)

    We gotta take care of each other,

    Thank you everyone, thank you for everyone listening or watching out there. Please check out New Noise Magazine if you don't know it. Subscribe to the print edition, it's not overly expensive. It is packed with so much amazing stuff. You're gonna love it. And if you're in a band or you're on a record label, reach out, throw them some advertising. It's a great way to get your name out there, trust me, I know. And thank you Lisa for all that you do to help build community within our music scene.

    Lisa Root (1:14:40)

    Thank you, you too.

  • Episode 22: Sophia Morekis

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive from the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators. We're here to give credit where it’s long overdue. I’m your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going. And today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out. Today I’m talking with Sophia Morekis, the force, the force behind Devil's Advocate, an artist management and consulting company based out of Savannah, Georgia.

    Sophia got her start in Atlanta while studying media entrepreneurship with a focus on music business when she threw herself into booking and promoting shows, both independently and through local venues. After graduating, she made the jump into artist management and hasn't looked back. She's now working with three Savannah-based bands, The Maxines, Oceaner and Lord Carrion, if I mispronounced this, please let me you know, and continues to push for greater femme representation and perspective within the metal and hardcore community. My first contact with Sophia occurred while booking the upcoming RBNX and Negative Raxxx winter tour, I could tell from the get-go that this was a kindred spirit, so I wasted no time and asked them to be a guest so I could get to know all about what they do to support the scene. How are you doing Sophia?

    Sophia (01:31)

    I’m doing wonderful. Yeah, yeah. I actually just got back in town from doing a kind of trek out in the region to check out some other shows. So it’s been really fun.

    Scott (01:42)

    Okay, cool, you would you like to elaborate on that a little bit? I bet that sounds really interesting.

    Sophia (01:48)

    Yeah, yeah. So I like to do a lot of like what I call reconnaissance research missions, which are really just me going to shows and talking to people. So I went out to Memphis to see a band called Autolith and then Thou, who is a pretty big band, but popped into a random little venue in Memphis. And then we went back to Birmingham for the Furnace Fest.

    Scott (02:16)

    Okay, Furnace Fest is always great, yeah.

    Sophia (02:16)

    So we were at Furnace Fest for a while. Yeah, yeah, it was fantastic. And just really good to like see where everybody could go, like what festivals we can get on, what people are doing with festivals these days. And really just the sentiment behind it was really interesting. Yeah, I met a lot of like-minded people and it was just really cool to see that. community come alive. I really needed that. I mean, we get a lot of that in Savannah, but it’s just a smaller place, you you know, and it’s a bit of a dispersed crowd here, but yeah.

    Scott (02:56)

    I get that so I’m in the Hudson Valley so we’re very dispersed so I put a lot of miles on my car because I also went to you know go to festivals I did our RPM Fest in Western Mass Buffalo Ska fest in Buffalo Camp Punksylvania outside of like Easton, Pennsylvania I’ll be down at The Fest in Gainesville coming up soon, but I’m flying to that one But you know a lot of that is like you said it’s just it’s meeting people my wife will be like How many records you just like?

    Sophia (03:16)

    very cool, yeah.

    Scott (03:23)

    you you know, sometimes I sell $400 worth, sometimes 100. Sometimes I meet a lot of great bands. Sometimes I always meet a lot of great bands. And that’s really kind of it. Like I’m just meeting great bands that bring it around and get to know and meeting promoters and other record labels. And it’s it’s as much about selling the records and vending there as it is about meeting the people and building that community.

    Sophia (03:46)

    Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s why you do it. I mean, that’s why I got into it, it’s just the people and just, I think the first time I, the reason I started managing a band is because I went and got my ears pierced and started talking to the guy that was piercing my ears. Like that’s kind of what it’s about. Like we just started talking about music and I had like vaguely kind of indirectly booked them before.

    Scott (04:05)

    Okay.

    Sophia (04:16)

    And I was like, y'all sound like you need some help. And it’s always great. mean, Autolith out in Memphis, they were like, yeah, we've been trying to book a show in Savannah forever. And I was like, yeah, cool. Like, I’m your person, let's do this.

    Scott (04:30)

    Yeah, you were incredibly responsive, really thoughtful. You knew the venues, you knew bands right off the bat. was like, oh, thank goodness. I mean, I don’t know if you've booked larger tours for any of your bands yet, but I get a lot of like, oh. especially if it’s a venue like yeah you can have the spot you need to find the three local bands and luckily I have a pretty big spreadsheet been doing this a while but every now and then I’m in a town I’ve never been to before I like I don’t know who the good local bands are I mean I can go listen but even listening doesn't mean they’re actually good people and

    Sophia (04:50)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Scott (05:03)

    You you know, sometimes a band with 4,000 followers on Instagram has no one show up. Some that only have 35 has everyone show up because they just don’t do social media. And it’s hard to have that pulse without a local promoter that you can trust.

    Sophia (05:10)

    Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. And I think that’s where I took a couple missteps. Like early, early on, like I just thought that it’s not that I think that I know everything or thought that I knew everything. It's just you it’s not so cut and dry. Like you can’t just copy and paste a methodology that you used on one show or one band onto the next one. And you can’t just be like. well they have two guitars and drums and they play fast. Like that’s probably, or their artwork kind of looks similar. You can’t really go based on that. have to do, you have to go through several hoops to get there and talk to some people and be like, Hey, what's going on with this venue? Like where are people playing?

    Scott (06:04)

    I’m starting my discord channel in a couple days. just got done having a buddy help me figure it out cuz like I’m 50 years old I don’t use discord, but I didn’t use Instagram either so you don’t figure it out like but I feel like that’s a good place to figure out what's happening like

    Sophia (06:12)

    Yeah.

    Scott (06:18)

    25 years ago, I would go on a local message board like when I’m DC we had pheer.com you'd go there and people would be talking about the shows they’re going to and then you know 15 years ago Facebook groups people actually engaged on Facebook groups and talked about their local shows but now Facebook groups are just spam where people are like either selling sausages or You know promoting a flyer for a show five hours away

    Sophia (06:22)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, or it’s like an EDM thing on it. I see that all the time. Like I got into like some, it was very specific. It was like a metal community in like, I don’t you know, some big city, but it was just, I was scrolling through and there'll be like, Hey, I need a vocalist for this show. EDM flyer. Hey, I need a fill in drummer. EDM flyer. It was like, what's going on?

    Scott (06:44)

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I found with the only groups that might have any value are the ones where you have to like take the quiz before you’re allowed in where you have to like answer some questions like they’re trying to at least make sure that you keep it relevant and really the best ones like there was one I used to be part of called Punk Rock Dads but I don’t have time for it where you know it’s pretty good it gets shut down every now and then because some dads just don’t know how to maintain composure and keep their mouths from being stupid.

    Sophia (07:13)

    Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hahaha

    Scott (07:34)

    But at least it was a lively conversation. It wasn’t a whole bunch of like EDM things. So let me take a step back and could you tell me kind of your musical journey, like how you got into music, where you started and what kind of led you to major in music entrepreneurship because that’s super rad. You you know, I’m getting my PhD and I’m like, I wish I had majored in musical entrepreneurship instead of being a teacher. Okay.

    Sophia (07:37)

    Sure, yeah. It was fantastic. It was the best thing ever. And I kind of like, it wasn’t a natural thought. Like it wasn’t like, oh, from the age of five, I always knew I would be in this. Like it wasn’t like that at all. Like I grew up actually a ballet dancer. So I thought I was going to do ballet for the rest of my life. But I had always loved, this is from my dad. I grew up listening to old school metal.

    Scott (08:12)

    Yeah.

    Sophia (08:27)

    and we would go like CD record shopping and I kind of learned a lot from him. As most kids learn from their dads about stuff, music was our connection and we used to always go to shows together. I remember he took me to see kind of a big thing for me was when I went and saw Alice Cooper and Motley Crue and

    Scott (08:38)

    Sure.

    Sophia (08:57)

    And I was young, I was very young. And I was like, wow, this is great. And it was a bigger stadium. So we started off doing like safe like stadium tours and stuff. And then we went to a couple festivals and then I moved up to Atlanta for school. his... His partner at the time was also living up in Atlanta. So he would come up and visit us both and we would go to shows together. And there are just so many venues doing stuff all the time in Atlanta. so, and some of the tickets were like, yeah, $10 to see like six bands. And I was like, okay, let's do it. And so he would come up and we'd go to a couple of shows every weekend and that kind of that went on for a very long time. And actually, when I first went to college, I was an anthropology major, which kind of it kind of makes sense when you think about it of just like the history of human behavior.

    And so that’s what I was initially on track to study. And I simultaneously with all of this, I read Shep Gordon's, biography. So the manager of Alice Cooper. And that’s when being a music manager, like really became an actual like future for me. Like, there are people that do this, you you know, because I’m not musically talented. I’m not like, I play guitar sometimes, but it’s usually like just really like slowed down sludgy stuff, but.

    Scott (10:21)

    Yeah.

    Sophia (10:49)

    That's all I can handle.

    Scott (10:51)

    I’m lucky enough to be a drummer so as long as I’m adequate and not an asshole I can always find a band.

    Sophia (10:56)

    Yeah. yeah. Totally. Totally. But yeah, Shep Gordon was like his mind for business mixed with like creativity and adding like something unexpected in there. He was always like doing a groundbreaking thing. And I really respected that. And and the thing about Shep Gordon is like he didn’t he didn’t like metal. He didn’t really even like music that much. And he was just like, but I was like, okay, I love music. And I think I have a mind for this. And I, I can’t remember if I went to the people at my university or if they did like a forum thing. I don’t really remember, but

    Scott (11:35)

    Sure.

    Sophia (11:52)

    I was like, yeah, I kind of want to do music business. And they were like, oh, we have this new thing. It's called media entrepreneurship. And you can basically make your concentration within a creative field and adding business components onto that. So it was fantastic. Yeah, it was, it was really great. And they kind of got us out into the community more. So it was really community driven.

    Scott (12:10)

    That's pretty dope I love that.

    Sophia (12:22)

    Um, yeah, it was, it was great. And that’s when I started doing my own booking and promotion. Um, I started like a very small business with a couple of my friends and, uh, it was all, this is going to sound crazy, but it was all based on cereal, like the breakfast food. And, and I, I did a whole.

    Scott (12:44)

    All right. I love this. Keep going.

    Sophia (12:50)

    business plan on the idea that cereal should be incorporated into music promotion. I don’t know why, but I was like, how cool would it be if like a band had their own kind of cereal? And this was like little, like, you you know, 19, 18, 19 year old me. And so I started, I did a couple one-off like shows that were all cereal themed.

    Scott (12:59)

    Okay.

    Sophia (13:20)

    And then we did Crunch Fest in Atlanta. and then that was in 2019. So then we were going to do Sog Fest, so like soggy cereal. And that’s when COVID hit. And then I like basically kind of shut down all of that. But I think it was 20, it was either late 2020 or 2021. I started working. I moved back down to Savannah.

    Scott (13:24)

    Okay. sure a soggy cereal yeah yeah i love it i love it yeah

    Sophia (13:49)

    and started working at a record store here. And that expanded me a lot in terms of sheer catalog of who's buying what and what genres are kind of overlapping. And so that gave me a really good idea of like what demographically we could do and what sounds were kind of coming back.

    Scott (13:51)

    Okay.

    Sophia (14:18)

    And yeah, and then I fell into, I met that guy, Pierce in my years and I’m in that band for a couple years and they disbanded because they just moved too far away to keep it up. Yeah.

    Scott (14:31)

    happens. tell when I was a middle school teacher I used to tell kids that the key to success being in a band is just not to break up. But unfortunately you’re married to three people that you wouldn’t even go on a date with. So invariably something goes awry and it could be all totally simple stuff from someone just deciding that they’re getting married and having kids and don’t want to be on the road anymore to

    Sophia (14:45)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (14:59)

    It's incredibly hard just to stay together and like maintain that same cohesive sound. Most of the bands I’ve been in have had very few lineup changes.

    Sophia (15:01)

    It is hard, yeah. Yeah. That's good, yeah. Yeah, the bands I manage now, so there’s three of them and they have very, very different dynamics. So it’s not, again, it’s not the copy paste method, especially when you’re dealing with different people. You have to really, really learn how they operate as a group. And I kind of meet with them. So when I sit down with a new band, I tell them kind of what I do, what I expect from them, kind of my rhythm, my workflow type thing. And I give them a trial period for myself and for them to see if we are communicating at the same level. And that’s worked out really well. It's given me a chance to kind of learn. them as people and I go to their practices and so I see how they create, how they play together when there’s not really anybody around and they’re so different. Like even just within the three that I manage they’re so different.

    They're all amazing people, all care so much. create, I mean, they’re my favorite bands essentially. So they create amazing stuff, but how they go about it is just so interesting. And that’s what makes this so exciting. And that makes me want to keep doing this and maybe want to start devil's advocate and like be a thing to help other people. And cause it’s, it’s, it’s creative in its own way. Like you’re not actually in a creative field yourself being a manager. but you’re creative in the sense and it’s somewhat psychological too. So it’s just, it’s so fun. Like it’s so fun.

    Scott (17:16)

    I would say like you are creative like you have to creatively problem solve you know whether you know like so you know on the record label side I’ve put out about 50 records some of them split some of them with four bands getting four bands to agree on you you know, color of a vinyl enough, you you know, getting them to agree about how we’re going to present the record because some bands want nothing to do with Spotify. Some bands want nothing to do with Bandcamp. Some bands, you you know, they insist on having test presses. Some are like, no, it’s cheaper and faster and not do tests. And it’s like managing that and like, you you know, even like I’ve gotten into the booking recently and you you know, some bands I’ve been working with.

    Sophia (17:35)

    Yes. Yeah.

    Scott (18:00)

    Okay, I’ve booked the tour and three days later one of them reaches out that they booked a date I was like for are you booking the tour or am I booking the tour? Because I also was reaching out to people for that same day and I’m fine if you want to take care of XYZ City Go right ahead But tell me so I don’t You you know, it’s a process that you have to work you said the communication skills so

    Sophia (18:07)

    Man yeah, yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes you have to like, this might sound bad, but it’s like you almost have to reverse psychology some people of being like, like letting them come up with an idea and then just like kind of gently pushing them into coming to some decision and then being like, wow, like with one of my bands, I do have to be like, okay, like they'll eventually come to a decision. It'll be a good one. And I just have to maybe like almost say what I think they think. And then they'll be like, no. And then eventually they'll say it back to me and I’ll be like, okay, cool. We can go from there.

    Scott (19:15)

    Okay, we’re good. We're saying the same thing differently, but you’re with me. Yeah.

    Sophia (19:18)

    Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you have to like anticipate things like that. and you, yeah, literally everybody has different ways of communication. And, and it’s, I think it’s kind of my strong suit that I just make it a point to keep up with it because that’s all you can really do. You can’t really,

    Scott (19:45)

    Do normally have like one point of contact in each band or do you have a band group chat where you talk to all of them?

    Sophia (19:51)

    I have a group chat with each of them and we talk pretty much daily. And even if it’s just about anything, you you know, like, I can’t remember where I heard this, but somebody was like, if you want to engage with an art or creative endeavor, you just look at it. Like if you play guitar, just like look at it and hold it and tune it every day. you you know, if you don’t feel like playing. So that’s kind of what you have to do with the band. Like even if there’s like little lulls, you still have to like engage with it, engage with the people. Like at least look at your roster of contacts. Like I have, I have a old like physical Rolodex just cause I don’t, just when I need something to kind of spark something. I have like physically contacts that I’ve written down and what they do. And I’m like, okay.

    If I have nothing that I’m like, that’s pressing or if I’m a little lost, I just go to that. Or yeah, I mean, it’s really interesting.

    Scott (21:12)

    That's fascinating. What are your specific things that you do? Because I know I have one band WORLDSUCKS that I am their manager. I manage their social media. I book their studio time. I find them photographers. I find them pressing plans for their shirts, etc, etc. I’m shipping out the record to record labels. The other two bands. I’m just a booking manager. I just booked their tours. I don’t manage anything else. That's it. They do their own local stuff. But when it comes to like over going on tour,

    Sophia (21:22)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (21:44)

    Yeah, that’s what we’re doing. I have another couple bands that are coming on to do just the booking side What do you handle when you say you’re the manager? What is your what is your buffet of things that you do?

    Sophia (21:56)

    So basically booking right now is a big part and we’re just trying to fill out the year. Two out of the three of my bands are currently writing and recording. So I don’t necessarily schedule studio time but I make sure the studio person gets paid and I make sure that everybody knows the details of that.

    Scott (22:11)

    Okay.

    Sophia (22:26)

    I just don’t have, they, just know that they have a better rapport with the studio person at this point. Cause I came in after they made that contact. so I, I just let them kind of figure out what dates work best for them and they do that. But I just make sure that the money side of it is okay. And, and so one of them just went through an EP recording. So I’m going to be facilitating in like the mixing. process of that and I found them a master. So they didn’t know who they wanted to master the EP. So I kind of did a lot of research and found someone and reached out to them and ran it by the band and they were like, this is sick. So we went in that direction and balancing, you you know, funds that we have to spend on that. with the quality that we want. And so that was, that’s kind of been the bulk of my work lately. But in the past we've done, we've done like online merch sales.

    So I will ship off all the merch. I order the merch. I’ve facilitated in the design. of the merch, like basically commissioning artwork for it. And yeah, I mean, every Monday I give them updates on kind of what I’m working on. And yeah, it really varies, but the bulk of it is booking. do, it’s funny because when I tell like my friends and family that I do.

    Scott (23:57)

    Yeah. OK.

    Sophia (24:23)

    band management, they immediately think I just do social media, but that’s like, that’s like the bottom of the list of what I do. and like, I’ll go on there and post a couple of stories, like respond to messages or whatever. but that’s not, that’s like a very, very small percentage of what it is.

    Scott (24:32)

    Yes. So, and you can say, you can decline the answer if you want to, because I know I like charge a per hour for like, you you know, the band I manage and then for the other bands it’s like a per hour, then a percentage of like the tour. You do a lot of work, it sounds like on a daily basis, you get like a flat rate that they use to retain your services, because what you’re doing is valuable and you deserve to get paid for it.

    Sophia (24:59)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I do after the trial period they do pay me a monthly retainer fee. I started off doing the percentage But it I don’t know it something about it just felt weird to me Because I want them to I Want it to feel good for them so and I want to like I feel good with what I get paid like I feel

    Scott (25:39)

    Sure, sure, assume you do, yes.

    Sophia (25:43)

    but yeah, so we kind of nixed that early on and, it was just so varied that I didn’t want that to really, cause it was more, back end, like behind the scenes stuff that I was working on. wasn’t like, I don’t know. I just felt weird about it. So I, we went to a monthly retainer fee. And they are all on contract. So it’s like this, this amount per month until the term ends.

    Scott (26:17)

    Okay, and you drew those up yourself when you went to business school. So I’m assuming you drew those up.

    Sophia (26:21)

    Yeah, yeah, I took, I took like law classes and like copyright and IP stuff and like just legal business classes were like tied into that. So eventually I would like to go to like law school for copyright and IP just because I feel like that’s so important now. But but we’re going to ride this out first and see what happens.

    Scott (26:38)

    Sure, sure. Nice. And the bands you manage, from my observation, listening to them, they’re all pretty much on the metal side. Is that where you’re, I mean you mentioned Alice Cooper and metal with your dad and Motley Crue. Is that kind of where your heart lies is in metal?

    Sophia (26:59)

    Definitely I I started Devil's Advocate as a thing to draw in metal artists, but also I Started it not necessarily to manage other metal bands like I would like to just do Consulting on a basis of like people that don’t want to commit to a contract, you know But yeah, metal is where my heart lies for sure, but that’s not exclusively what I listen to or consume, I guess. So I’m not ever, ever gonna say like, if you have good music, you have good music and that’s, you you know, I’ll appreciate you and respect you because of that. So.

    Scott (27:52)

    I mean I tend to lean on the 80s hardcore when like all hardcore was punk but not all punk was hardcore and hardcore hadn't become metal yet. That being said, you give me a good ska band in there or some post-punk band that I’m like and I can’t describe it because post-punk means nothing but if it’s good music and they’re good people I’m like you know what it’s not the normal thing and since I do live albums especially if you can put on a good live show

    Sophia (27:59)

    Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does, Mm-hmm.

    Scott (28:20)

    I’m unconcerned like I there are bands I will go see live that I would never put on the record to on a regular basis and spin it but I love seeing them live when I get a live record is like now I feel that I feel that so I reached out to you and I can’t remember if I found your

    Sophia (28:20)

    Yeah, that is huge. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Scott (28:40)

    email off of one of your band's Instagram pages or they forwarded me to you or suggested it. But is it very common for people like me, like DIY booking agents to reach out to you and ask for like shows for tours for bands or am I more of like an anomaly?

    Sophia (28:59)

    It's pretty common. Well, I would say it’s like maybe I’ll get one or two a week or so. Yeah. Or like some sort of inquiry about it. Sometimes they’re not specific. Sometimes they’re very vague inquiries.

    Scott (29:09)

    That's a good amount though.

    Sophia (29:24)

    Yours was pretty specific and helpful. So thank you. But yeah, particularly for The Maxines, like the Femme fronted band, like they’ve been around a while. So, and that’s a really big community right now. So I get that a lot of people, they, a lot of people assume that they’re not,

    Scott (29:26)

    You Yes.

    Sophia (29:55)

    people assume that they’re bigger than they are. Like, we’ll get inquiries from like, you you know, all across the country and we’re like, we literally cannot go there. But it’s really like, it’s really appreciated. And I’m like, wow, like this is crazy. It's kind of like a pinch yourself moment for sure.

    Scott (30:07)

    Yes. Yes. Have they gone on a lengthy tour yet at all? a three week or four week tour?

    Sophia (30:26)

    No, just like, I think the max has been like maybe 10 to 14 days. But they are going on one in November and with a Canadian band and then next year we’re getting them up to Canada. Somehow. I’m gonna have to figure that out. Like that’s another thing I’m gonna have to figure out is like just the legalities behind. Yeah.

    Scott (30:42)

    Okay, nice. Getting them across and you know whether you’re gonna try and sneak equipment across or whether you’re come across some other way there’s always complications of sorts. I’ve toured Canada so it’s you know it was definitely there was some trickery but and the metal band that I manage WorldStocks their bass player lives in Canada so they’ve gone up for some one shots in the Montreal back and forth but even that there has always been like I’ve created like fake

    Sophia (30:56)

    Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool.

    Scott (31:21)

    I’ve created contracts that are appropriately used for them to cross the border.

    Sophia (31:26)

    Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious.

    Scott (31:30)

    So yeah, I had a band called Cam Girl from Asheville, North Carolina.

    Sophia (31:37)

    I feel like that sounds familiar.

    Scott (31:38)

    You would love them like them fronted like that mixture is like neon everything's neon and it’s like Motley Crue But it’s also like Dio and it’s it’s just it’s just amazing and They were on like a two or three month tour like their first really long one and I had reached out to them Maybe four months before and said hey if you ever want to come up here, let me know So I’ll reach out to bands because you never know what their plans are five months from now

    Sophia (31:41)

    Yeah. Mm-hmm. Nice. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (32:03)

    And I just, a friend had me listen to him and I was like, well they go on tours. Well, they always go out to California and back. Well, I’m gonna convince them to come up north instead. So next time we went to work, up this way, I’ll hook you up with some shows. And they did. So you never know. So like people reaching out to The Maxines like, maybe you haven't done it yet, but maybe you’re looking to do it.

    Sophia (32:12)

    Mm-hmm. Cool, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And kind of on the flip side, like, I always tell my bands, I’m like, they'll say something offhandedly as a joke of like, maybe we could play with so and so like, maybe we could play this fest in the UK. I’m like, yeah, like, careful what you ask me to do, because I will do it. And you got to be sure that you want it.

    Scott (32:50)

    Yes, it’s quite feasible that it can be done. You don’t know what you can get until you ask for it. And then yes, if you ask for it and I get it for you, you better be able to do it because otherwise I’m sitting here looking like an asshole because I booked you a three week tour in Europe and now you’re canceling two days before you leave because you realize you actually can’t go. I’m like, no, that doesn't work for me. Yeah.

    Sophia (32:53)

    Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I remind them of that often. I’m just like, are you sure you want this? Because it’s gonna happen if you like just stay the course.

    Scott (33:22)

    Like I would say look at RPM Fest in Western Massachusetts. This is my first year going to it, but it was absolutely great. So many great metal bands and the Brian who runs it. He's a he's a drummer in two bands, but I know mostly from PWRUP which is really a melodic punk band with horns, but he also plays drums at a super dope ass metal band whose name is escaping me for some reason. But yeah, I would recommend looking into that for next. Yeah, next year around. I think it’s.

    Sophia (33:29)

    Mm. Mm-hmm. Cool, awesome.

    Scott (33:52)

    June end of June. I went to too many festivals this summer. It's all just In my head it’s in my head So do you have a lot of venues you consistently work with so if you’re getting like two requests a week or even just one I know I try

    Sophia (33:57)

    Yeah, it was a lot, yeah.

    Scott (34:10)

    keep it to two or three a month and I know this summer I went out of control because I had some free time and I did like five even sometimes six and I’m like it’s way too many I can’t promote them as well as I would like to or I’m just exhausted because I’m like

    Sophia (34:17)

    Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Scott (34:25)

    You you know, like I am managing two shows for a festival that I didn’t book on Friday and Saturday. And then I have a show that I actually am booking on Sunday. And then next week I brought a band up for a three day run, burning hag from Philadelphia. You would love them. Femme fronted dark metal grunge, super dope. I’m not running the Friday show. I helped them get it. Holly from Outsider Magazine is running, but I got to be there. And then I am running the Saturday and Sunday. So that’s like, and then I’m going to test the next weekend. So what am I doing to myself? Like, when do I see my family?

    Sophia (34:32)

    Yeah. Bye-bye. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (34:56)

    So what did you do? How do you, how many shows do you do? How regularly do you do it? What venues do you work with?

    Sophia (35:03)

    Yeah, so I typically work, I have booked, I actually just started booking with a venue here called The Stables. They didn’t normally do music shows. They were mostly like an art gallery. But they, this, in the later part of this year, they... started doing, like they were like, okay, like we’ll book a couple music shows or whatever. And they went really, really well. And we did a show in August that went super well and they reached out to me and were like, we wanna do monthly metal shows, but we don’t have anybody to book it. Like, will you book it for us? I was like, okay.

    Scott (35:47)

    Sick.

    Sophia (35:53)

    So I’m rolling that out towards the end of this year and into next year. So yeah, that'll be great. It'll just be like kind of a, they were basically like whenever and whoever you want, just like.

    Scott (35:56)

    Okay, very solid. Do they have a staff that helps you like I do monthly shows at a place in Kingston, but I have to bring my own sound person, my own sound gear, my own door people. So like there’s no one there to help me. Like if I didn’t have the great back line of people I have supporting me, I couldn’t do it.

    Sophia (36:15)

    Yeah. Yeah. Right, yeah, so I have like some people that I like to work with as far as sound people and promoters. There's this one local Booker promoter that does AuraFest here. so he does shows kind of throughout the year. There's actually a show tonight that I’m gonna go to after this for one of my bands is playing. no, no, it’s great.

    Scott (36:45)

    Red. Well thank you for meeting with me before the show, that’s so kind of you.

    Sophia (36:53)

    A dream come true. Like this is the life I want for sure. But yeah, so he books with us a lot and is really, really sweet and tries to do things that are kind of like strategic and it’s not just like, I need a band. Like, will you guys hop on? It's not like that. So we work together. We kind of tag team the scene a lot. And over the years, I’ve developed like a really good relationship with some venues, mostly in like North Carolina and Nashville and kind of the region. Like there are some bands and venues that I’m like, we, even if they can’t directly be a part of this, like they have our backs, like they will help us.

    Scott (37:38)

    Okay.

    Sophia (37:53)

    And even this one, like I spoke to a manager in Nashville and I just started following him on Instagram and we like got to talking on there and he was like, Hey, do you want to like have a phone call? Like I also, I’ve been managing for a while. Like, do you want to just talk and, and just ask me anything basically. So I called him up and we talked and he signed me up to like, a music management like forum basically. Like he got me a membership to this great resource. Yeah, yeah, I was like, this is fantastic. So definitely I have like a it’s it’s been so eye opening. Just the you you know, it does take a village to like put these things together.

    Scott (38:31)

    That's awesome. I love when people are kind and supportive of each other.

    Sophia (38:52)

    And you’ll figure it out pretty quickly which ones are in it for the wrong reasons, you you know? And I think for the first like six to eight months of me doing this was me not knowing those things. And sometimes I had to figure out the hard way, you you know? And yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (39:17)

    Yeah, mistakes get made, but you learn from them.

    Sophia (39:21)

    Yeah, exactly. So by this point, I’m pretty confident in my connections that I do have and that, you you know, and you just, some of it’s just like throwing a bunch of stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks, but the things that do stick will massively help you or they can for sure.

    Scott (39:45)

    You had mentioned previously that you really want to be like Femme forward and inclusive on that. like I know DCxPC Live, like we try and have inclusive spaces that are, my shows tend to be as diverse as possible, BIPOC, queer, trans, fem, so it’s not all just the same straight white cisgender guys getting up there screaming that I’ve heard for the last 30 years. Do you get any pushback on your attempts to

    Sophia (39:52)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (40:15)

    Democratize and bring that kind of radical. I say radical but it shouldn’t be radical, but I feel like it’s still radical

    Sophia (40:22)

    Yes, that’s the thing. Like I think people expect me or like I’m a pretty even keeled person. Like I let the band kind of invigorate and be that sort of more radical force. But I personally, I would like to just normalize it. Like it doesn't have to be this crazy like, my gosh, like there’s some girls doing metal or whatever. Like this is crazy. Like that’s not the shtick. The thing about it is that they’re great and they’re fantastic. It's not that they’re... And sometimes like me and the vocalist for The Maxines will like...

    Scott (41:10)

    Yes.

    Sophia (41:19)

    look at a comment and it'll be like, this music's great, but, but she's, you you know, I don’t really care for female vocalists or whatever, like, or, or some like crass comment or whatever. And it’s just like, just, I want to, I, it’s not about that. It's, I want it to be just more normalized and especially me as a more professional figure. just be able to have a conversation and just trust me. That's, that’s a huge thing. Just trust and respect me as the position I am, not necessarily because I’m female or whatever. It's just because I’m good at my job and I didn’t get this role because I’m a girl or a femme or whatever. I got this job because I know what I’m doing. So that’s more of the sentiment I would like to bring to the table, maybe not now, but eventually.

    Yeah, so that would be huge for me if like that was just not, the eventual goal is to have it not be talked about, but it has to be talked about in order to get to that.

    Scott (42:44)

    It won’t get normalized until it’s done. Like I have to be intentional in my booking.

    Sophia (42:47)

    Yeah.

    Scott (42:51)

    because you know I have 3000 bands on my spreadsheet and while there are certainly far more people of color in the hardcore and punk women LGBTQ it’s still not as many as people who you know are the standard you know white male and like I know when my wife sang and played guitar in a band she had to write a song called my vagina doesn't sound like Kathleen Hannah because everyone just say well you’re a female singer, so you must sound like Kathleen Hannah from Bikini Kill because all

    Sophia (42:56)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah hehe

    Scott (43:21)

    females with guitar sound like Kathleen Hanna and she sounds nothing like Kathleen Hanna so it’s like

    Sophia (43:21)

    my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course not.

    Scott (43:26)

    it’s just that constant issue and I have friends of mine in this band called Soji from Philadelphia. They are a very upfront, queer, BIPOC group. Their lead singer is leaving. So they put out an ad saying they needed a new lead singer and it had to be a black, femme-fronted person with radical politics. And the most thing they got attacked for was that like, I forget what the word was. Someone said something, it’s the opposite of misogynist, mangyanist or something, like attacking them for like keeping men out of music. was like, keeping men out of music? How are men being kept out of music?

    Sophia (43:33)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Scott (44:00)

    Like, men are in music everywhere you go. It's it’s simply an aggressive music. I was reading sellout the book about all the punk bands like through the 90s. Do you know the Distillers?

    Sophia (44:00)

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (44:14)

    So apparently at one point in the book, they’re like, your album that we just came out through a major label, we can’t put it on the radio because the radio said we can only have two female vocalists out right now on rock radio. And we already have No Doubt and Hole and rock radio said that we can’t have three vocalists on in a week that are female. Like, I was like, what are you talking about? What formula is that?

    Sophia (44:34)

    my gosh. Jesus. What? Yeah. Yeah. It seems, I mean, it seems completely arbitrary. Like, what is that possibly based on? Like, I...

    Scott (44:42)

    I don’t understand it. I mean, I’m not going to book a band regardless of any other extraneous aspects if they’re not a good band. Right? Because if I put up an all, you you know, BIPOC band or an LGBTQ, like queercore band, and they weren't any good, all that would do is reinforce the idea from the naysayers out there that they’re not any good. Like, they have to be good. Of course, there are a lot of shitty straight white bands that get book shows.

    Sophia (45:00)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Yeah, that’s very, very true. Yeah.

    Scott (45:20)

    They're real honest but but I’m pretty proud that I use my book Shitty Pants period

    Sophia (45:26)

    Yeah, yeah, that should be the main goal. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s really interesting, but it’s like a constant balance you have to strike between like being intense and intentional, but also like just being yourself and just like showing up and...

    Scott (45:28)

    Like it’s just like don’t book shitty vans.

    Sophia (45:52)

    and it'll just keep pushing and just keep being a normal nice person. It's kind all you can do.

    Scott (45:58)

    I think you like you speak about showing up that that’s key like you would even mention in beginning. He remembers during the interview prior to the interview where you said you like you go down and like did reconnaissance and go to shows like I moved here like three years ago and one of the first shows I went to was like a house show on the SUNY New Paul. It's like college campus and I’m like the 48 year old guy handing out handbills for a show I have coming up going to check out the local like, you you know, scene and I’m like you have to get out there and do it. Wow. You come out to shows. You don’t just come out to your own shows. I’m like, yeah, I’m part of the community.

    Sophia (46:21)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (46:32)

    I come out and sometimes I don’t hand out handbills because I just want to be a citizen and I don’t feel like working tonight I just want to enjoy the music and meet people But yeah, you got to get out there and be part of it

    Sophia (46:37)

    Right, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely.

    Scott (46:48)

    So are your venues, do they tend to be all ages? Because you had mentioned going to shows at a young age with your dad. Are you able to provide all ages venues in your area?

    Sophia (46:57)

    We try to, unfortunately, a lot of them around this area have been closing for not any like specific reason. I think they’re just maybe getting priced out because around here is getting really expensive. But. But yeah, so we’re trying to get more creative with the venues that we go to. Like there’s a coffee house locally here that puts on a fun show and it’s all ages. And I remember I was really, really nervous about this one show back in April. And, cause it was like a lot, a lot of moving parts. Like nobody kind of knew what they were doing. It was announced. It was at this venue, it was all ages. It was announced like maybe five or six days before the show. It is when it was announced. And it was a packed show. And like this is, people will come out for this. Like they’re hungry for it. And that’s why I’m grateful to book at this newer venue is because they’re all ages and.

    Scott (47:58)

    Okay, it does happen. Yes.

    Sophia (48:20)

    But my biggest gripe about Savannah is that it’s a drinking town for sure. And it’s, there’s this huge knowledge gap in business owners that are like, and venue owners that have to be 21 and up. And it’s really frustrating because that really alienates so much of our listeners, especially as newer bands, especially as metal hardcore bands, which are like, you you know, huge with that demographic.

    Scott (48:56)

    they are at a normal level like. I get it. There's either a the safety issue, right? Like they want to make sure that there’s no underage drinking They might have to bring an extra security or it slows down their bar service because they have to double ID or something like that Got that or it could be like I’ll go to hardcore shows in Reason and Ruckus and such if it’s a straight-edge hardcore show that’s all ages. I’ll look at the bar and I’ll be like I’m the only person ordering a beer and I’ve had only like two beers over the course of four hours So I’m like and if the bar is not taking money off the door

    Sophia (49:02)

    Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (49:29)

    They're basically just hosting 150 people who are jumping around and enjoying their venue, which is great because they love the music and they love the community, but they do have to pay their rent. So it’s a balance there.

    Sophia (49:31)

    Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, that is true. Yeah, yeah. And most of what we have is not, they’re not venues per se. They are bars, like what you’re talking about. They're bars and clubs. And so we did have a All Ages venue that lasted maybe a year and some change that was put on by the

    Scott (49:50)

    Yeah.

    Sophia (50:08)

    the record store that I had worked at, the owner opened up a venue and it was all ages and they were doing like, they were very, very successful, but it was just, they were part of a kind of a strip and the other people, the other owners of the strip didn’t like that there were so many people there sometimes. Yeah.

    Scott (50:09)

    Okay. Yeah, it’s the outside people when they go outside to smoke or just hang out in water and skateboard that’s that often causes that issue.

    Sophia (50:39)

    Yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, yeah. So I do definitely get it about if it’s just, if it’s an operational, fully operational bar or club, like, yeah, but also we should just have venues for venue sake. And,

    Scott (51:02)

    Yes.

    Sophia (51:06)

    and just have that be that, you you know, and then it’s not this weird thing. This weird, like, transactional, like hyper-transactional thing, you know.

    Scott (51:16)

    Yes. It's, yeah, I mean it’s, you’re right, not many people open up a venue to be a venue. Through this world we find, we’re like, oh, here's a bar. I was at one in Albany the other day and I was like, oh, look at that back corner over there. I could throw down a drum rug and put up a PA and two floor monitors. Let's just move the stairs. Like, I see they have pinball games. I was like, you put some tables in front of them so they don’t get smashed.

    Sophia (51:31)

    Yeah, yeah, I think about that all the time.

    Scott (51:43)

    Yeah, I could fit 55 people in here. Oh, this would be dope. You you know? I was like, I wonder how good their business is on a Friday night. Are they desperate enough yet to try punk rock and hardcore? You you know, like a lot of times it’s like the dying gasp of a bar to go. Fine, whatever. We don’t have any business anyway. What are you gonna do? Make it worse?

    Sophia (51:43)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (52:10)

    Like, you brought in 100 people. OK, this is good. Let's do this.

    Sophia (52:14)

    Yeah, yeah, it’s very interesting. It's, I mean, a lot of it, it’s funny because I was talking with my partner about where we would potentially move to if not Savannah. And are you, you’re familiar with Pig Destroyer, the band? Yeah, they’re my favorite of all time. And

    Scott (52:36)

    absolutely, yes.

    Sophia (52:41)

    I was like, we were kind of going back and forth on like maybe Richmond, maybe Philadelphia, maybe like Chicago. So we were talking about all these cities and I was like, I just, I said this partially as a joke. I was like, I just want to go somewhere where Pig Destroyer will play. And I just want to move there and just live in a place where Pig Destroyer can regularly play. And, and he was like,

    Scott (52:46)

    Yeah.

    Sophia (53:09)

    You you know, that’s actually like a really good marker of a town and the infrastructure and the economy. Like if they can support like kind of mid range bands like that, like niche bands, if the community is there for it, like it just matters so much.

    Scott (53:29)

    I mean, I was lucky enough to grow up in the suburbs of DC. So, you you know, 92, 16 going to hardcore shows in DC, going to shows in Richmond, going to shows in Baltimore, short drives to Philly, New York City. I had so, so much. And then I moved to Florida for a hot minute. was like, Oh, it’s okay.

    Sophia (53:33)

    Nice. perfect. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right.

    Scott (53:52)

    I thought it would be better because when I was a kid reading Circus Magazine in my garage, I was like, oh, every death metal band from Orlando, you got Obituary, Cannibal Corpse, Carcass, I think. Yeah, there’s a lot of death metal, but it was all in Tampa. I was in Orlando, but was like, it’s fine.

    Sophia (54:00)

    Yeah, huge like state culture. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Scott (54:11)

    So is the culture of Savannah mostly a metal town or if you had to do like the DIY music scene?

    Sophia (54:15)

    No, well, it’s kind of... It's so... It's difficult to tell. Like it is... I would say it is a metal town because we've got like some big metal bands that are from here. You you know, Baroness, Kylesa Black Tusk, like... Yeah, like they’re all from here. So there’s always been kind of that sludgy thing.

    Scott (54:35)

    There it is.

    Sophia (54:44)

    that came out. So basically I think of it as like a lot of people. You get the New Orleans sludge mixed with the Florida death, mixed with that weird apple-atcha stuff. And you kind of get this kind of fast sludge core almost. And...

    Scott (54:59)

    Yeah. Yep. We call it Swamp, Swamps, Swamp Metal down in Florida. Yeah.

    Sophia (55:11)

    Yeah, yeah. So it’s kind of like that. it’s, mean, the bands I metal I manage now are metal primarily, but one's like death, one's more like grindy, hardcore. One is more grunge / nu metal. And So you get these really interesting subgenres. So I would say overarching, if you would ask anybody on the street, they'd be like, no, Savannah's not a metal town. But if you spend some time with these people, you’re like, metal shows are kind of the most attended here, I would say. Other than that, there’s like a lot of just Americana. and stuff like that. So it’s just like a very, there’s not a whole lot in the middle, I don’t think. Now that I think about it, there’s not a whole lot there, but it’s kind of different. Yeah, definitely.

    Scott (56:06)

    Of course there is. Yeah. Yeah. It's the two extremes right? That's fascinating. So what would you say has been both the most difficult and most rewarding part about starting up your business doing what you’re doing right now?

    Sophia (56:30)

    the most difficult is failing. mean, just being comfortable with getting the no's with things not working out the way you want them to. that’s a, it’s a hard lesson to learn and you, you only learn it by doing it a lot. and yeah, and I, I, I think that is just. I did a really interesting thing in college that was, that helps me a lot with this. I think it would have been a lot harder had I not done this, but my, one of my professors did what they call a fail con. So basically you get up in front of all of the classes, all of the courses for that particular class and you just talk about your greatest failure and

    Scott (57:14)

    Okay. Wow.

    Sophia (57:30)

    everybody cheers, like it’s like the best thing ever. And yeah, it was amazing. And it helps me a lot with just like kind of doing future pitches and just cold calling people, cold walking up to people and just be like, well I already did the thing I wanted to do the least in my life, which is tell somebody about this huge failure I had.

    Scott (57:34)

    That is awesome. love that.

    Sophia (57:59)

    So this isn't going to be as bad. so yeah, that was like, I, you’re ever able to do something similar to that, I would encourage that it’s really good. But I think that’s.

    Scott (58:09)

    I love that. I know when I was a middle school teacher, I would do like pushups for every mistake the kids notice I made, whether I spoke something or grandma's like just to show them there was exponentially more. So the second pushup was two, the same mistake was two pushups. Next one was three. And like Mr. P you do like 35 pushups today. was like, well, I making mistakes. Look, I’m the expert. I just just want them to realize like how much I screw up within a 45 minute moment. Like it’s okay. You're going to make mistakes. Don't be afraid to screw up. Yeah.

    Sophia (58:18)

    really? that’s great. I’m messing up a lot. Yeah, it’s it’s okay Yeah, yeah, but it is scary like it is I think that’s the most difficult part is like It is just the shame involved in that in like letting down a band Because there have been moments of that I mean like guys like I don’t know like I just This is not coming together or we have to postpone this or something like that, like that’s just really, really hard. But on the other side of that, the most rewarding things are just like... You you know, it’s kind of like what they say about film editing. It's like, it’s really good, you don’t notice it. And it’s felt similar with managing. It's like, if everything, if nobody really knows what you did or who you are, like it’s, and everybody's just enjoying the music and having a great time.

    Scott (59:24)

    Yeah, I love that.

    Sophia (59:47)

    then you can just kind of sit down and just bask in it and nobody is like, nobody knows. And it’s weird that that’s the most rewarding, but that it just indicates like a seamless creation.

    Scott (1:00:07)

    show is so great. I had a show this last Friday. The venue changed two days beforehand. The owner of the venue that had to cancel the show they had some construction maintenance and stuff. She's amazing Meg from Reason and Ruckus. Shout out to you Meg. Love. She called me on Wednesday with the solution. She had already found another venue. It was also all ages. It was directly across the street, like just like on the other side of the road, like through an alley. And I was like, this would be amazing. She's like, I’m so sorry. I was like, I’m sorry. Most venues would not. But not have done that. And. The headlining act is this gentleman Henry Cluney who played guitar and stiff little fingers from like the late 70s one of my favorite punk bands I’m like I can’t screw this up.

    I Can't screw this up and and like the other band was Frenchy and The Punk which was like my wife and I was the first band we saw in the Hudson Valley before we ever moved here and That another been on a hundred and fifty day tour. I was like I can’t I can’t fuck this up. This has to be this has to be

    Sophia (1:00:55)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah. wow, cool.

    Scott (1:01:17)

    You you know, so I went out to like the local universities two days before and passing out handbills, getting kicked off the campuses. And I’m like, it has to come across. people need to know that it’s moved, that it’s working. And it was great. And I know how much I put into it. And I don’t care that anyone else knows because all I know is like, I enjoyed it for all that it was. And.

    Sophia (1:01:17)

    Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:01:41)

    Yeah, I spent a whole size of crazy money making extra flyers and I probably lost money on the show, but I don’t care. I would have paid to go to that show. I would have driven three hours, stayed in a hotel room, paid for that to go to that show.

    Sophia (1:01:47)

    Yeah. Nice, yeah. That's the most beautiful feeling.

    Scott (1:01:56)

    So that, yeah, it just feels really good. I had a gentleman earlier on my podcast, he was a promoter in Tampa. He does a lot of great metal stuff Endoxa booking and he owns a venue called The Conduit in Orlando It was like, no one knows who the promoters are and they don’t matter. I was like, I beg to differ. I think that a certain promoter can create an atmosphere and I get it, he did a lot of shows and he booked all over the state so he couldn’t be present in every single show he did. But I’ve only been absent, like since I’ve been doing shows here in like two years, I’ve only missed one or two shows and those were because I had no other options and I had a good person running the show for me that I trusted. Thank you, Savannah. Savannah the person, not Savannah Georgia.

    Sophia (1:02:19)

    Mm-hmm Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, yeah. Yeah, Yeah, no, I gotcha.

    Scott (1:02:50)

    So where do you think you’re gonna go? So like you’re moving pretty fast it sounds like. You've got three bands, you’re making doubles at a picket your brand. What's next? Are you gonna like work on the website, find more bands? Where do you see yourself going in the next five, six months, year from now? Where do think you’re gonna be at?

    Sophia (1:02:54)

    Mm-hmm. I’m good right now coasting with the three bands and just taking them as far as I can. I would love to do more, like I said, I mentioned, like consulting and just seeing what I could do support wise for bands that aren't necessarily under my roster, you you know? I would like to I see myself becoming more of a booker in town. Because most of my booking, well I do some locally for sure, but I think most of my energy goes to out of town shows. And my buddy who I mentioned before that does AuraFest, he kind of has a good hold on booking metal here in Savannah. And I don’t want to compete with him, but I’d like to have like just another person doing it. So I see myself as that person for sure. And then eventually just branching out and keep like kind of making the circle bigger, you you know? Yeah.

    Scott (1:04:33)

    Tides kind of lifts all boats right like the more people doing shows because you’re not all you can’t do every show and I don’t know how big Savannah is I’m pretty sure is bigger than Kingston where I live but

    Sophia (1:04:40)

    Right. Yeah. Probably.

    Scott (1:04:47)

    Kev from Negative Raxxx you’ll meet him when they come there in a couple months. He does shows sometimes too. He's a brilliant, sweetest, crust-punk guy that actually manages to put stuff together. But every now and then I do my monthly show and I’m like, dude, Kev, you booked a show on the same day as mine? was like, couldn’t help it, Scott. Band's on tour, they needed help. And I was like, you know what, respect to that. It's fine. You know what?

    Sophia (1:04:49)

    Mm-hmm. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:05:13)

    I can’t be upset that you book a great show with the touring band because my show was too filled and I couldn’t add another band because sometimes you just can’t add another band and no no disrespect to anything he does of that nature

    Sophia (1:05:22)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:05:27)

    because in the end, people are gonna go his show, they go to mine, and I usually fire for both because I want people to go to the show they wanna go to. It's not a competition. It's not me versus him. It's, hey, we have these two amazing shows a mile apart from each other. Go to both, even. Yeah. Right?

    Sophia (1:05:34)

    Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, how cool is that? That's the best. Yeah.

    Scott (1:05:49)

    Let's make it happen because who knows which one of our venues is going to disappear in the next year or two.

    Sophia (1:05:53)

    Yeah, yeah, for sure.

    Scott (1:05:57)

    That's always the case. So who you going to go see tonight? Which of your bands?

    Sophia (1:05:58)

    Mm-hmm. I’m going to see Oceaner. Yeah, they are doing, I think it’s a four band bill. They're playing at a place down, no it’s not quite downtown, but it’s called the Wormhole. It's a funny little bar, so yeah, but I think a couple people from my other bands are going to see them too, so.

    Scott (1:06:04)

    Okay. Awesome. Do they all interact with each other? The other bands? Yeah.

    Sophia (1:06:32)

    They do, yeah, yeah, they’re very supportive of each other and when I told the others that I was gonna take on this other band they’re like, oh my god, that’s so sick. It wasn’t at all like a weird possession thing, yeah.

    Scott (1:06:47)

    Yeah, it’s the rising tide. So like, you’re going to another band and that band is going to have contacts and make open doors. And then we’re all going to be together and play shows together and tour together and yay.

    Sophia (1:06:53)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think it’s gonna be really cool. But yeah, I’m this is their first show in a while. I say a while. It's been like maybe two months because they’ve been they recorded the EP. So yeah, it’s been a second since I’ve seen them live. I go to their practices, but but yeah, they’re they’re really fun. So I’m super excited.

    Scott (1:07:03)

    Okay. And how did you discover, like I know the one band, the original band you started with, you discovered while you were getting your ear pierced, how did these ones all come about? Or did they all come about differently? And do you have enough time to answer that? Because I know it’s an hour you've to get to the show. We've already been talking. I don’t want to take up too much of your time.

    Sophia (1:07:38)

    No, no, no. I mean, it’s pretty easy. For The Maxines, I went to their very first show, which was an all-cover show. And I was like, hey, and like I went to talk to them. I knew kind of them and like the members individually, but not super well. And I was like, hey, like if you ever need a manager, like just feel free to let me know. And then like about six months go by.

    Scott (1:07:48)

    Okay.

    Sophia (1:08:07)

    And we kind of like run into each other again, right? I can’t remember if it was at a different show and they were like, yeah, so we kind of need you now. And I was like, okay, cool. Let's do it. And then Oceaner came next and they, reached out to me and it was funny. I was like, I saw the notification that they messaged me and I was like, okay, they want to like somebody else like. asking for a show like cool okay and and they’re like hey like would you like want to meet up and talk about managing us I was like what like that’s crazy you want you want little me to do that yeah and then picked them up and then Lord Carrion and I was booking a show for them and then we kind of got to talking and I was like do you

    Scott (1:08:49)

    Yeah.

    Sophia (1:09:02)

    like, sounds like you might need somebody, if you ever, like if you ever need anything else, like even if it’s not just booking, like let me know and then they eventually signed a contract with me. So yeah, it kind of like, it’s been a mixture of like timing and knowing, like just feeling out where the band is at. and seeing their potential. And with Oceaner, like I didn’t know how serious they were about it. But then we got to talking and I met up with them and I was like, you guys are killer. You're so good and I need you to be everywhere that you can be. So I was just like, I’m gonna get you there. So it was just kind of this mutual thing. And yeah, about timing and kind of putting yourself out there, you you know? Yeah.

    Scott (1:09:56)

    Have you had the awkward moment of having to turn down a band who wanted to be managed? Because I have to do that. mean, obviously with shows you do, but I’ve had to be like, yeah, I’m not quite ready to record an album for you. Or I’m not done with the funds to do it. Like there are polite ways to do it, but there’s also like the, it’s just not really my thing. Which I like to be honest with some of it. It's really just not my thing. I don’t want to lead them on and think a year from now it'll be my thing when I have money.

    Sophia (1:10:10)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there are like some kids, I call them kids, like they’re just like maybe 20 something. I’m 27, so like anybody under like 23, I’m just like, you don’t know anything. But yeah, so I’ve had a couple like people like that, that I’ve been in a band for like,

    Scott (1:10:32)

    Yep, I get it. do the same thing.

    Sophia (1:10:50)

    They just maybe just formed a band and were like kind of overly romanticizing the whole thing and like feel like they need a manager when they don’t really have that much original music. And I’m just like, you you know, like give it a little bit of time, play a couple of shows and then maybe we can talk about something. And like that’s, that was one of the reasons I wanted to do the consulting thing is like not only to protect. artists but to protect myself too like if I can just offer some basic guidance without us like signing on to anything indefinitely you know so so yeah there have been a few times where I’m just like yeah like you’re not really read like you’re not ready you know

    Scott (1:11:21)

    Sure. Have you, how do you handle your press? Oh yeah, hey Kat, hey what's up? So like, you know mentioned Oceaner, was it Oceaner that just recorded the, sorry, yes. Is it Oceaner or Oceaner, sorry. Oceaner, sorry, I won’t pronounce it correctly eventually. Did you need PR for that? Because I’ve sometimes hired.

    Sophia (1:11:41)

    Sorry, my cat's on me right now. Their EP? Yeah. Oceaner. You’re okay.

    Scott (1:12:04)

    PR people to different levels of success. I’ve also tried to do it myself to different levels of success and I’ve never quite figured out if it’s the release that gets more press or if it’s the press agent that I’ve hired or if I just drafted a better press release that day and I it’s very difficult because I don’t want

    Sophia (1:12:11)

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:12:29)

    I don’t want perfunctory press. I don’t want someone to take my press release and just copy and paste it. I know sometimes things in the band feel all good inside, but I want actual substance and something that leads traffic to the store to buy the record. Have you tried using press at all or do you do it yourself?

    Sophia (1:12:34)

    Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I do most of it myself. My dad was actually a journalist, so I kind of like grew up around that atmosphere. I mean, it’s different because he did news media, but he knows kind of the rhythm of things. just through like osmosis, I’ve gotten that. yeah, I mean, it is hard. To me, It is a lot about timing of things and inconsistency too. So I think if you are tactful in your image. So I always go back to like, what is your image or values as a, I know you’re people and you’re in band, but you’re also a brand.

    Scott (1:13:40)

    Sure. Yep.

    Sophia (1:13:42)

    You you know, so what are you what image are you trying to get across here? What message? What are your values as a brand? And so I kind of go back to that to answer a lot of the questions about how to promote a certain thing or what places to reach out to so they can promote the album or a show or a music video. You you know, and. I think it is, again, it’s not the same. I think that’s the thing I struggle with the most in terms of like, you can’t reuse the same, the same site or the same messaging. you, like I’m actually for The Maxines, I’m actually going through a website, a complete website rebrand for them for their upcoming album. So we’re going to make that a whole new thing. And for that tactic, I’m not necessarily gonna like use that for every band or every album, you you know? This is just their big sophomore album, so we’re gonna promote it.

    It's a pretty big step for them, so we’re gonna treat it as such.

    Scott (1:15:03)

    Is it going to come out in a physical format or is it straight digital? Awesome. Have you already picked your pressing plant and everything?

    Sophia (1:15:06)

    Yeah, yeah, so this is the first one we’re doing line vinyl. Yeah, we do. Yeah, we have a local one. Yeah, we’re super stoked. So it’s gonna be really cool. And yeah, that’s gonna be a new one for me to try to do press for. But I think it'll be.

    Scott (1:15:16)

    Okay, awesome, locals are the best.

    Sophia (1:15:35)

    I think it'll go fine. mean, it’s like everybody's fiending for vinyl now. especially they’re the type of band that it would do really well with because there’s so much about being, I don’t know if this is weird to say, but they’re a very like physical band, you you know, so it would feel right to have like them as physical media. They're kind of a very like tangible band, I guess. Yeah.

    Scott (1:16:08)

    I think that makes a lot of sense. So, that’s very interesting. Yeah, I mean I’ve just recently used Clarion. It's a PR person and I did it for my Wolf-Face Celebration Summer release where they were recorded at Fest and the album release shows are happening at Fest and probably spending more money than I’m ever gonna come close to making on the record for it.

    Sophia (1:16:32)

    Mm-hmm.

    Scott (1:16:33)

    But I’m also looking at it as long term for how it affects my label and making sure my connection with the Fest grows and making sure that these two good regional size bands.

    Sophia (1:16:39)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:16:49)

    feel like they got the treatment they deserved on this short run record so that I can continue to say, hey, I’ve already worked with this band and they said I did a great job. So like to me, it’s not inherently, I can’t afford to do that for every release because I’ve had like 15 releases a year. So I kind of to pick and choose which ones get the extra cash that I have by extra cash.

    Sophia (1:16:51)

    Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it is a lot of like allocation and cost benefit analysis type thing. But yeah, so it gets mathy, but it is also a lot about psychology and just in your connections and just working your connections and just going that way. And that can get you pretty far.

    Scott (1:17:40)

    I I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting you. I would hope that we can keep in touch later and we can just share ideas and thoughts because you’re coming from a different background than I am and you do slightly different stuff, but I also feel like there’s a lot of interconnection. So I would love to think that we can be a resource for each other and...

    Sophia (1:17:44)

    Yeah, this has been great. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

    Scott (1:18:06)

    But I really thank you for being on my show tonight. today.

    Sophia (1:18:10)

    Thank you so much, this has been super fun. Thank you.

    Scott (1:18:13)

    Everyone that’s listening. I’m gonna put all of Sophia's Social media and all that on the show description. I’m gonna put it for all the bands thank you all for listening Thank You Sophia. It has been an absolute pleasure

    Sophia (1:18:27)

    Thank you.

  • Episode 21: Joshua “Danger” Dobbs

    Welcome to DCxPC Live presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short run vinyl of live punk hardcore sky and metal shows. After decades of bands and behind the scenes, I know it works to keep the scene going, and today's guest is one of those people doing that work in week in and week out. Today's guest is Joshua Danger, Dobbs Danger Room Recording Services. If you picked up one of the 50 plus records I put out, you've probably seen his name in the liner notes. Josh has been essential to DCxPC Live

    so much that I can honestly say that the label wouldn't exist or have accomplished as much as it did the last four and half years without him. Beyond his work with DCxPC Lab, Josh records hardcore punk and metal bands across Florida and handles mis-stuning and mastering for artists nationwide. He also runs Ripping Records With his deep knowledge of Orlando punk scene and a body of work that's both broad and influential. I'm excited to sit down with one of my favorite people in the world and hear some of his stories. I gotta work on the speed of that at teleprompter next time.

    Josh Dobbs (01:11)

    Wow, man. I think that was the fastest one I've heard you do yet. That was impressive.

    Scott (01:13)

    That was ridiculously fast. Even by my standards.

    I don't know what I said with the word ripping records. I'm pretty sure I did not pronounce it correctly.

    Josh Dobbs (01:25)

    That one you messed up a little bit, but I think, you know, it doesn't even matter anyway, so it's fine.

    Scott (01:29)

    No, no,

    I'll fix it in the edits and the transcript and it'll sound how it sounds and yada yada yada. That's from Trev, my producer's job to fix that stuff,

    Josh Dobbs (01:39)

    Just make ripping

    records backwards. Put some satanic messages in Yeah. Put some satanic messages in there. You'll be good.

    Scott (01:42)

    Can I say breakfast repeat?

    Hey, you know what? It's good. It's good. It's what you need. It's what you needed so Things are good. I don't use for my camera off. God damn it. It's like I've never done this before

    Josh Dobbs (01:51)

    Yeah man, say how's it going?

    We both have faces for radio. I don't know if we need the camera.

    Scott (02:02)

    Yeah,

    well, you know, I find a lot of people tend to watch more on YouTube than they listen to on Spotify. Yeah, and I've even started uploading the straight video to Spotify too, because sometimes people like, you know, I've seen podcasts now and it's like, you know, you can listen to it in your car and not watch the video, but some people like to sit there and watch the video on their phone. I don't really know why. I listen while driving. I almost never sit and just like watch a podcast on my desk.

    Josh Dobbs (02:09)

    yeah? Interesting.

    Yeah, fucking weirdos.

    Just kidding, we support any way you want to view this.

    Scott (02:33)

    Have you done that?

    Absolutely. where would you like to start sir? Do you want to start with where you're at now or do want to go all the way back to the beginning and talk about where Danger Room Services came from besides you know Marvel Comics? The beginning. Giant Size X-Men Special Number One.

    Josh Dobbs (02:48)

    Yes, talk about the beginning. It was the beginning.

    It's right. shortly after I got my... I remember reading all about four tracks when I was a kid. Because I, you know, reading about Nirvana and stuff like that, they're like, oh, Kurt Cobain's aunt or uncle or second cousin's grandfather had a four track. So you're like, oh, what is this? You know, you start hearing about this thing, a four track. And then, then I got one for Christmas to record my band And I was like, this...

    sounds like absolute dog shit. It was one of those TASCAM 414 Porta studios. I mean, didn't know what the hell I was doing with it. I mean, that was the real problem. But you know, when you hear about bands, the Beatles recorded the White album on a four track. But what they're not telling you is that they're in a crazy studio and they have a producer and they have a mixing board, you know, leading into the... They have like, you know, a bunch of channels that are leading into this four track.

    Scott (03:31)

    Yep.

    Josh Dobbs (03:53)

    So that's the information they're always leaving out. So took me a while before I figured that out.

    Scott (03:56)

    So

    yes, that is entirely unfair to claim that you're doing just a four track when you have all that other support equipment.

    Josh Dobbs (04:04)

    Yeah, it's ridiculous. And you know, we've talked to Don Zientara, he started out on a four track, but he had mixing board and stuff going in. I mean, those are some of the greatest recordings ever. But also a four track, but meanwhile, I had no idea what I was doing for like the first couple years. So if you hear the first Runnamucks demo, it sounds like complete garbage.

    Scott (04:10)

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (04:29)

    So, really bad.

    Scott (04:30)

    Probably not as bad as you think it is.

    Josh Dobbs (04:33)

    It is really bad, but we somehow we did that trick that they do on their first Ramones album where we put the bass on one side and the guitar on the other side and it somehow cleaned it up a little bit. But. So.

    Scott (04:42)

    Okay.

    I mean, know, we're talking eight years, that's like early nineties, like, you know, you and I are relatively the same age. And most of the records I bought in tapes or whatever back when I was 16 in 92, they're all bands from the eighties who just recording quality was exactly what it was.

    Josh Dobbs (05:05)

    Yeah, but so it took a while before we actually figured out how to use this thing because everything was so blown out, that was the start of my recording. What were some of your first recording sessions like? Do you remember them?

    Scott (05:19)

    Yeah, the one I can remember most, I was in a band called The Slaves of Society and we had booked at Neptune Records in Occoquan, New York, no Virginia, I mean across the bridge. you know, it was fine, it was weird like tracking drums and everything. We had no idea about overdubbing, we didn't layer guitars.

    You know, we didn't master the record. It was like done on reel to I still have the reel to reels, but there was so much we didn't know because we were like 16 years old and we went in and we're like, okay. And the guy was recording us didn't in any way try and encourage like, you should double up guitar tracks here or how about doing this? He just pushed the fucking buttons and let a bunch of 16 year old morons like record their punk album. So it was okay.

    Josh Dobbs (05:45)

    and then

    Yeah. Yeah.

    And then, then, um, the, some of the people I went to high school with, they're in this band called Shroud of Turin and they, they, they're like, Oh, we recorded, went to this, this record store started doing recordings and there's a place called Beat Collectors up the street and they, uh, they're recording bands for like $10 an hour. So we're like, Oh, we can, we can afford that, you know, and like we heard the quality. were like, this sounds pretty good.

    Scott (06:23)

    Okay.

    Yeah!

    Josh Dobbs (06:34)

    So we tried to do our first full recording at a place called Beat Collectors. And this guy had like no idea what he was doing. He'd gone to Full Sail, which Full Sail is a really big recording school in the Orlando area. And he bought like all this freaking equipment. And in between songs, he would move mics around. So every single song had a completely different mix. And then when it came time to actually mix, he would like go...

    Scott (06:46)

    Yep, I'm aware of it.

    Josh Dobbs (07:03)

    disappear to go do coke and leave us. We're like 16 years old and he just leaves a bunch of 16 year olds to mix the thing. So you can imagine how that turned out.

    Scott (07:15)

    Yeah, no exactly, right? It's when you have no idea what you're doing and you're recording and you're 16 and you do everything in a couple takes and you mix it in the same day and you decide it's done, you don't go home and listen to it later and come back. You're just so excited to put this out on tape and you skip mastering because you don't know what mastering is because there's no internet to look it up. And the guy's like, whatever, do what you want. I'm like, why pay more money?

    Josh Dobbs (07:38)

    I mean, I

    don't know what this guy was up to, but I mean, it was a great learning opportunity because it was only 10 bucks an hour. So then after that, all the bands that were in Orlando were all recording with Rob McGregor in Gainesville. So he was in like 1998 and we went up there for the first time. And then you kind of, that's when you start like kind of getting an idea, like this guy has a regimented way that he does like everything.

    Scott (07:47)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (08:07)

    That's why all of his stuff sounds awesome, like Palakka, Asshole Parade.

    Scott (08:11)

    Yeah, also ProTem is amazing.

    Josh Dobbs (08:14)

    Yeah, I mean, I mean, back then it was like, they were really great recordings for, he was charging like 15 bucks an hour. So, so then, so I think I did like three recording sessions up there with three different bands, like between 98 and 99. So by then I was like, felt pretty comfortable with the recording process. But I still like, but then it took my friend Mike, like I had kind of given up on the four track.

    And then he figured out like, if you can put by one of these like stereo splitters from, from Radio Shack and stick it in. we can do like, you know, it do like two vocalists at a time. So we did this, my friend's band, The Terminators, we recorded them because they had two singers. And we did a stereo splitters. We could get like the kick and snare and then the cymbals at the same time. We started to like get an idea of what we were doing with the four track. Yeah.

    Scott (09:02)

    Yeah?

    I think all that self recording is something that I just never did. We always went to people, when I was in The Overprivileged we used the guy in our practice space. And it's actually very similar to what I experienced as a 16 year old. Still not smart enough yet to figure out to double up guitar tracks, et cetera, even though I'm now 23 or whatever. And then that album we recorded at three different studios and it sounds like it.

    Josh Dobbs (09:34)

    Yeah

    Scott (09:36)

    because it was all mastered by my guitarist on Pro Tools and he downloaded and taught himself how to do. Once again, we're just like doing shortcuts. It's like, you know, some of the punk rock way. And then we recorded in the house of this band called Standard Issue. Sounded great. Took laboriously long to record like four songs, but it sounded great. And then we did 15 songs mixed and mastered in one day with Rieder from Daycare Swindlers. I forget the name of the studio he was working at at the time. He did great work. And, like doing it all.

    recording, mixing and mastering all in like one day because we needed to send it out to work so we can have the ready. This is stupid. It was stupid.

    Josh Dobbs (10:07)

    Yeah.

    You can't do

    that because your ears are totally shot. That's what we always try to do. We try to mix it the same day and you can't do that.

    Scott (10:15)

    yeah, I mean...

    It's like the first time I recorded with you and you were like, no, you don't need to be here for mixing and mastering. I'll just send you stuff. And I was like, that's odd. I've always been there. like, and what do you do, Scott? When you're there in the mixing and mastering booth as the drummer with the tin ear that can't tune a guitar, what are you doing most? Cause like, mostly drinking beer and farting. Maybe it's like exactly. You're just fucking around, getting in my way, distracting me. And you assholes are going to fall asleep on the couch, wake up, get, drink more beer. Yada yada. was like, huh.

    Josh Dobbs (10:40)

    Exactly.

    Scott (10:51)

    There's truth to the words you're saying. Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (10:51)

    Yeah, that's a thing a lot of people from, uh, that's a

    lot of, a lot of people from the nineties think that you have to all be there from the, for a mixing session. However, on the other hand, but nowadays, but now you send somebody something and you're like waiting anxiously waiting to hear what they think about it. Like, Oh, I haven't heard, I haven't listened yet. It's like, what the fuck are you doing? You know?

    Scott (10:59)

    Yeah?

    Oh, to be fair to me,

    like, you'll send me stuff and I'll see it and I'll be on my laptop. was like, I don't want to listen to it on my laptop. It's going to sound like shit. Right? I'm like, I have to either get in my car and drive it here in my car or I've got to get my good Beats things and play it through my phone and hear it It's a matter of me going, oh, I would love to listen to this right now, but I'm in the middle of work and I can't. But I, no.

    Josh Dobbs (11:20)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (11:37)

    What I love most about when you send emails is like, you'll send me some like, this is it, final mix. And then 10 minutes later, nevermind that one, this one's better. And I'm like, okay, 15 minutes later, hey, forget what I just said, this third one is definitely it. I love that about you.

    Josh Dobbs (11:43)

    yeah.

    Yeah, that's a problem.

    That's a problem I have, but hey, at least I'm excited about it, you know?

    Scott (11:56)

    I love

    that! It's absolutely thrilling to me. I'm like, wait, if I listen to it now it's going to change in 24 hours.

    Josh Dobbs (11:59)

    I dunno.

    We're doing my friend's band right now and I had sent them like, I mixed and mastered like all the songs and I sent it out. like, this is it. Everybody in the band was like on board, but then I heard something that was just driving me crazy. And now it's just sent everything back into this spiral of like, you had to go like three steps back. And then now, now that people want to change the mix around, I'm like, I should have just kept my mouth shut, but I couldn't go. So I mean,

    Scott (12:29)

    Yeah, and did they did they hear what you heard

    when you pointed it out? Were they but when you pointed it out, were they able to were they able to hear what you were hearing?

    Josh Dobbs (12:33)

    Huh?

    They heard

    it. We were just so hyper focused on a bunch of other things that we didn't hear this like big glaring thing like there's because they recorded like 50 guitars and there's just there's too many guitars in certain paths in the recording. So it's like created this distortion. I was like, I've never like had to mix that many guitars before. This is supposed to be a simple demo that they're recording. Yeah, yeah, it's wild.

    Scott (12:43)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Sure.

    With 15 guitars on one track. The fuck is that?

    Josh Dobbs (13:07)

    But about the guitar, that's one thing I learned from Call in Dead is that you don't always need a bunch of guitars. Because you guys had that one song, and I was like, you have to put another guitar in this song, and Chris was like, no, this song is just raw, it's just supposed to be one guitar, and like, it sounds just as good as all the other songs. So it's like, and we, you know, from Don Zientara too, the first Minor Threat EP is one guitar. Like you can't...

    Scott (13:11)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yep.

    Yep.

    Yeah, if you do it right,

    if you do it right, you don't actually need to double up guitar.

    Josh Dobbs (13:37)

    can't fucking eat that, you know?

    Exactly, yeah. If you do it right, your song has to be that good. That's really the point.

    Scott (13:47)

    Yes.

    And then I take the compliment mostly for Chris that his song was that good. His new band, Gonzo Bomb is really good.

    Josh Dobbs (13:54)

    Yeah,

    But that's one of the things I wanted to convey is like, know, always have to, this is always a learning experience. you can learn from every single band. Because, you know, I didn't think, I didn't know I was gonna learn that lesson that day. And there it was, you know?

    Scott (14:13)

    Sure.

    I get that from you, like you'll send me a text like, hey, I learned something new today. So I, you know, in the four years we've been working together, I feel like every couple months at least you're like, hey, I figured out how to do this. Hey, I figured out how to do that. So I do appreciate how you're consistently always paying attention and solving problems in new ways. So.

    Josh Dobbs (14:36)

    I would attribute a lot of to the live stuff because in the live situation things go haywire pretty much every time. There's always some X factor that you're not going to foresee in the live recording world that you have to figure out how to fix. I try to learn something from every single band I work with.

    Scott (14:46)

    But.

    Sure.

    So would you say it's easier to do studio stuff than it is to mix and master the live stuff?

    Josh Dobbs (15:08)

    Deaf, it's not easier, it's a different set of problems, basically. And I learned something from Lausketeers, because they had an engineer that was able to get all the noise out of their vocal mics, and I was just like, how the hell are they doing this? And then their engineer was like, he's embarrassed to say how he did it. I'm like...

    Scott (15:13)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (15:36)

    Just like lying in bed at like four in the morning, like, what would this guy be embarrassed about? Like, what would he, I was like, he used some AI, like stem separation thing. I'm like, okay. So now like, now I know about that. Like it makes these live recordings like way, even, sound even better. So.

    Scott (15:52)

    Sure.

    I mean, you drop

    out the words AI and you say stem separation program and everyone's like, there's no problem with that. Who gives a fuck if it's AI stem separation? It's stem separation.

    Josh Dobbs (16:08)

    Yeah, I don't quite understand. Do you know anything about that? Because I don't quite understand what makes it AI that's doing it. Yeah.

    Scott (16:14)

    No. I mean,

    my experience with AI is like as a teacher and as a student and having to like manage how students use it in an appropriate way for like writing papers and doing research. I have no knowledge of like related to like recording.

    Josh Dobbs (16:27)

    Yeah.

    Scott (16:49)

    she gave you like a rough bounce.

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    HAHA

    Really? I had no idea that's the Go Outta Rock project.

    I gotta look that up now.

    Yeah?

    And I can't

    speak to anyone else, but you certainly do for me. You know, as part of the reason why, like I said, not only just the quality of your work, but you cut me such a solid deal where I feel like you're getting paid what you're worth, but you also throw in so much free time and like it makes it really, it makes it really affordable to do what I'm doing. So I appreciate that.

    Yep, you and I, 20 years from now, people are

    gonna look at this collection and go, they recreated what a live album can sound like on a decent budget.

    Which is, most of time when a band says they

    want me record their live album, most of the time I'll say I can't judge based on your studio stuff. I actually need to see you live. I really need to know if you can play live. And I don't even mean playing technically well. I mean just play with the sort of energy that I want to get.

    Yeah

    Yeah.

    I feel bad.

    Yeah,

    I feel like that's one of the hiccups we have and the other hiccup tends to be them not thinking they played well enough. sometimes I'm like, okay, yeah, I can maybe see it. But a lot of times I'm like, I don't hear anything that's wrong with this. Mind you, I am just a drummer, but like we've even had one band where like I thought it was great and their best song, the drummer's like, no, I didn't play well. I like, shut the fuck up. I wish I played that well. That song should be on the record. And they're like, no, no, he hates his drumming on it. He was borrowing someone else's drums. I'm like,

    fuck that's whatever yeah i know you know yeah

    Yep.

    Yes.

    It is, inherently, unless I'm just recording one band. But like, you know, normally I record the entire show because why record just one band?

    And what I don't get is all people are like, we recorded that like six months ago, we're a better band. And I was like, would you, but you would say the same thing if you're recording in a studio, like you're always a better band. You're always tighter. You're always whatever. Like, yeah, well that, we recorded that a year ago. We're not, we don't sound the same anymore. I was like, so would you not put out a studio record? Like records take time to come out. Like it takes, like I would just say normal from recording to production about a year for the record to come out.

    just because budgetary issues, time, pressing, three months, know, it takes time.

    Yep.

    We're working on it,

    I feel like, before the pandemic hit, right?

    Okay. Yeah, yeah.

    I mean it went on for a long time.

    I

    don't know. mean my drum tracks were all done relatively done. It was having to fix bass or do this You know, I mean, I think it's a couple sessions for vocals to get done. I think Jaeh kept blowing his voice But yeah, it it took all that time and then we hunted for a record label and found one and that took time

    No,

    it came out right before we broke up. So like January of 2022 is when Eva joined the band as the singer. And then I think the album came out sometime in October. It came out after we came back from tour and we had an album release show and Eva was singing instead of Jaeh but we still did the album release show because it's still our fucking band. But yeah, it was

    It was one of those things like, you know, I'm not even sure it was sent to press before Eva joined the band. So like they literally joined a band and had to be involved in helping like promote a record that they didn't sing on. But they were really good about that. They were like, we're in the band together. It's a different vocalist, but it's still us. So.

    Yeah.

    Yep. yeah. Now trust me, Halloween kills me all

    the time.

    It's a, the

    inherent problem is like bands don't know how long they're gonna be around. You can think you're on solid footing. And then for all you know, one of your band members has one foot out the door and they're looking for a job somewhere out of state. They don't wanna tell you cause they don't get the job then they're not gonna go. But they're doing it and they don't wanna hurt your feelings. But they also like don't wanna leave the band unless they get the job so they don't tell. And I get all that, right? You know, or just something just happens. Like it's the,

    the dynamism of a punk rock hardcore, know, whatever it's like. Bands do not tend to last for more than three to five years.

    Typically,

    typically that's it. So it's like getting it out and getting it done. But I mean, I can go through like the bands that have broken up as soon as the record came out. It's like,

    Yeah.

    Wow, because you were like, it's

    what we have, right?

    then you gotta spend even more money to get it remixed.

    Yeah.

    So you can remix everything.

    You know, so what

    I'm hearing is that like you learned about recording by recording your own band and seeing what not to do and learning like what apps you had.

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I

    get that. was in high school, I thought about doing the recording engineering thing at the local community college. But like I said, I can't even tune a guitar. don't have any right to be ever mixing anyone. My ear is not good enough. So I feel like, and I play drums, I get confused by looking at all the pedals guitarists. I was like, I don't care about this. I don't wanna talk about splitters. I just don't wanna deal with it.

    Yeah.

    Sure.

    Yeah.

    I'm

    See you later, putting stuff.

    See, and I've seen that too. I've seen the singer holding up the thing. And you don't see guitarists and drummers and bass players holding up tablature or sheet music, right? How is it that they don't know the song? They can record it on their phone and play it in their car every day and sing along to it. They can practice on their own constantly.

    I think it takes away from your energy.

    Yeah!

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Okay.

    traction.

    I mean

    he saw you were a three-piece, he could have just switched as soon as he saw you.

    that's rad.

    Okay, so when did all this lead to you like starting Danger Room? Like when did Danger Room become a thing?

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Yes, okay.

    Okay.

    Ha ha!

    Okay.

    Sure,

    you keep improving and moving up and like, you know, learning how to the new stuff.

    Okay?

    Okay?

    Sure.

    Okay, can you explain what that is for me? Cause I don't know.

    Yes.

    Yeah.

    Okay, interesting.

    Not coming out the way it should, okay?

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (35:36)

    There he is.

    Does it pain the ass?

    Scott (35:41)

    used to them.

    Josh Dobbs (35:45)

    Hey, let me fill up my coffee really quick.

    Yeah.

    Scott (36:09)

    Okay.

    And did you reach out to them and ask them questions when you needed to figure shit out or?

    Josh Dobbs (36:16)

    yeah, okay.

    Really?

    Why is you can see my Hulk and Charlie XCX sticker in the background?

    Scott (36:38)

    Okay.

    that you're

    familiar with their work and really enjoyed it. Yeah, that's great.

    Josh Dobbs (36:46)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Got these guys.

    Scott (36:59)

    Yes,

    that's where I first experienced the danger of

    Josh Dobbs (37:07)

    fuck with any of those other guys I just like the classic

    It is as good.

    Scott (37:18)

    And is the reason you stop using that place is because it's easier to be mobile or you're not allowed to use that space anymore.

    Josh Dobbs (37:21)

    Nice.

    Scott (37:32)

    Okay.

    Gotcha.

    Well, hopefully they fixed the toilet at least.

    Josh Dobbs (37:41)

    Yeah.

    Scott (37:44)

    That was awful. That was awful. But

    Josh Dobbs (37:46)

    Did you ever read that Chris Claremont wrote a comic about like if he had continued the original run if he continued past issue three from the 90s?

    Scott (37:50)

    so, can I take any credit for the idea that you understood that you could take your studio and travel? Because I remember the first time I asked you to bring your studio to Uncle Lou's, to the Lou's stream for DCxPC Live Second Record, was that like the first time you took your studio and traveled to a place to record?

    Josh Dobbs (38:02)

    Yeah, he made- there's a graphic novel of it. Oh no. Yeah, I'll find it and let you know what it is, but-

    Scott (38:13)

    Yeah.

    them.

    Josh Dobbs (38:17)

    huh. Yeah. He was kind of a dick when I met him, so fucking-

    Yeah, fucking...

    Scott (38:29)

    Yep. And I

    think that was a great first one because since it was still COVID, it was a live stream. We limited how many people were there. So we didn't have to worry about like drunk mosh pitters and stuff like that.

    Josh Dobbs (38:32)

    Thank you so

    Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get rid of that part, right? Nobody wants to hear that. Nobody wants to hear that nerd shit.

    Yeah.

    Scott (38:50)

    Yes.

    Josh Dobbs (38:51)

    All right. all right. So my band recorded in Sun at Sun Studio in 2003. And, know, if you asked the other guys in the band, they would have said, oh, that was a great experience. But this dude literally spent 20 minutes on mixing the music. He just he just thought that we were going to take the reels and mix it somewhere else. He had no idea.

    Scott (38:54)

    Yeah.

    Yeah!

    It was just, it felt a little silly, but we were still at that moment of like the in-between phase of what was gonna happen. I mean, the next two records we did together were still live streams. I don't think it was until the Some Kind of Nightmare record that we actually recorded in a normal world with a normal show.

    Josh Dobbs (39:14)

    No, but he had, you he was acting like he was mixing it, but he had no idea that we wanted it mixed there because, well, our first, let me back up a little bit. Our first album, we recorded at this place called Paradox City Studios because we wanted to record on analog. That was really important to us because, you know, all of our, all of our favorite albums were recorded on analog. So I looked up like every recording studio in Florida and I found two that did analog that were like,

    Scott (39:22)

    Was that the first time you did a full actual live recording like where the band playing live with actual people there?

    Yeah.

    Was there a dramatic difference doing that versus the other stuff?

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (39:44)

    somewhat reasonably priced. They're like $65, 60 or $65. And we were like, let's go with the $60 one. So, so when we drove down to, we drove down to Sarasota and like this place was amazing. It was in a storage, storage complex, but it was like so, so cool. And the dude that owned it, Rick, he was awesome. He showed us pictures of a Steven Seagal had recorded there doing some,

    Scott (40:01)

    Okay.

    So you normally take people, take their stuff down to like their practice spaces to record? Wherever they practice that is where they record at?

    Josh Dobbs (40:14)

    some rock project. So that was just like...

    Neither did I, but... And they said he was running around in the studio, you know. But this dude recorded the whole album for like 700 bucks. So I was like, he just gave us a deal. So I was always like, man, I would always want to help out bands and give them fucking deals because, you know, we were like 20 years old at the time. Like this album...

    Scott (40:21)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Yeah!

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (40:47)

    You know, we did not have any money at all, I really appreciated that. I always wanted to pay that forward to other bands.

    Scott (40:52)

    I mean,

    that's gotta be some level of difficulty, right? Like, I do enough shows that I know that like, you know, my sound guy, like we're doing a show today at a new location and he's like, you know, I was sending him pictures of it last night so we got an idea of the shape of the room and what the walls were made of. Like, there's a learning curve about like, how to do sound in a place. And like, how do you handle that? Like, cause it's gotta be like, you walk in and hmm.

    Josh Dobbs (41:20)

    Yeah, man, I mean, I like what you're doing. And I really want to see like a lot of people, you you talk to a lot of people like a lot of my friends growing up, they're like, oh, that's just a live album. Like, I want to I want to listen to that. Like, meanwhile, the fucking like I've heard bands, I've recorded bands live and like, seriously, like nine times out of 10, their live stuff sounds better than their recorded shit. It's just it's it.

    Scott (41:20)

    How long does it take you to figure it out?

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Yes.

    Josh Dobbs (41:59)

    Yeah, but I mean, I could name bands that are on your label that are like, could listen to their studio stuff. I'm like, this is fucking garbage. And their live stuff is amazing. So.

    Scott (42:07)

    Yeah?

    I always have the mind that yes, we're recording the drum tracks, but bass and guitar should be playing as if they're recording permanently too. Cause if they're good enough, then just fucking keep it. And they'll probably be better than when you doing them later. Cause we're actually like playing together. So it'll have that extra energy. And if you have to go back and do another guitar track or bass track instead, cause you fucked up. be it. But if you don't fuck up, it's gotta be great. Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (42:21)

    Yeah, exactly.

    Yeah, it's the energy and if you don't capture a band in that moment because and a lot and like sometimes we'll capture that moment and then there'll be a lineup change afterwards and then a band will be hesitant about putting something out and it's like, well, we have a different lineup now. We don't really want to mess with that stuff anymore. like, it doesn't matter. Like we captured a moment and now is like supreme energy like while it was going like.

    Scott (42:41)

    Well, 100%.

    Yeah,

    I mean it's a little harder with the vocalist sometimes I think because they can lose their voice in so many takes.

    Josh Dobbs (42:59)

    Does it matter what little problem you had with somebody in the band? You should put this out.

    Scott (43:20)

    Yep.

    Did they accept that? You say, of course, but bands are persnickly.

    I'm fully aware between booking shows running a record label and being in bands. Well, it's

    Josh Dobbs (43:36)

    I know who you're talking about, and that annoys me to this day.

    see, that's one of logistical problems that like everybody wants to, you if you're recording, you want to be on your own stuff, of course. But like to make the live show and the recording flow well, it's better if people share drums. So that's one of the problems, you know.

    Yeah,

    there's no way logistically you could just record one band that would be dumb.

    Scott (44:10)

    Yeah.

    Time is long.

    Yep.

    Yes.

    I mean you have an hourly rate, your hours are hours. Like you're not hiding the amount. you charge, this is how much you pay per hour. If it takes you five hours to record your guitar tracks, cause you keep fucking up, then you owe me five hours of work.

    Josh Dobbs (44:23)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, always.

    Hmm

    Scott (44:44)

    Interesting. Yeah, I do not have anything of that nature.

    Josh Dobbs (44:49)

    So that's one of my other things that I want to impart is people should put stuff out as soon as they possibly can. Because like for instance like the Call in Dead record, I don't even know how long were we actually working on that? Do you think a year?

    Scott (44:54)

    Yeah.

    Sure,

    I mean, I know you've done some stuff for me where like I've used someone and it's the first time recording someone live before and you know, there's always a learning curve as you said, you're learning stuff so you're like, oh what happened here? I was like, oh I don't know what happened. You have to talk to them, but yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (45:12)

    No, no, it was post pandemic because it was after we did the live stream at the danger room.

    And I can't, I couldn't even remember why exactly it took that long.

    Yeah.

    Scott (45:32)

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (45:36)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Scott (45:40)

    So do you enjoy recording more or mixing and mastering more?

    Josh Dobbs (45:45)

    Yeah. So yeah, but so then by the time the album came out, I don't even think Jaeh was the singer anymore, right?

    Yeah.

    Scott (46:06)

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (46:09)

    Yeah, exactly.

    Scott (46:09)

    Okay.

    Okay

    rad.

    Josh Dobbs (46:18)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Yeah, which is

    Scott (46:39)

    Fuck yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (46:42)

    Yeah.

    Scott (46:43)

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (46:44)

    So that's a super unique situation, but I mean, that's just, that's one example. Like, but the amount of times that's happened, like we've put out records and then the band or we'll finish recording, we'll finish a mix and master, and then the band breaks up. So.

    Scott (46:53)

    Yes.

    Nope, I get that, I get that. That reminded me, like my buddy writer that recorded us up there, he gave a band once a flat rate, and he's like, yeah, they raped me. They must have spent like an entire day recording a guitar solo. Like, and I'm just there for like eight hours, and it's the same fucking guitar solo for eight hours. And I was like, he's like, it's unfair. I was like, I gave him a flat rate, and they're just abusing the fuck out of it.

    Josh Dobbs (47:02)

    So, just put your stuff out as soon as you fucking can. I mean, even if you're waiting for a physical pressing, get some singles out there. You know?

    Yeah, exactly.

    Scott (47:27)

    Yeah,

    I said a flat rate and I'm like, yeah, yeah. I would be like a flat rate up to so many hours. this is what it is, you got 20 hours. But we go beyond this to certain point, I gotta charge you more. So when I first started working with you, I remember with Call in Dead stuff or the first DCxPC Live which was also Call in Dead stuff, I was like, you mixed it and I was like, oh, I should send it off to someone to be mastered. And you're like, fuck no, I'm gonna master it. And I was always taught,

    Josh Dobbs (47:37)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, typically.

    Scott (47:56)

    that you record with someone, I finally learned about mastering, that you always record with someone and send it off to master somewhere else. And you're like, no, that doesn't have to be that way. So can you tell me why people think that way and then why you disagree?

    Josh Dobbs (48:05)

    Yep. And so back to, back to Sun Studios. This guy spends like 20 minutes on the mix. The dude at Paradox had spent like hours, like putting these, you know, we're a three piece band. He spends like hours, like putting this mix together and it came out sounding like awesome, you know, but that Sun Studio, we put the CD into my van and I'm like, this sounds like one of my old four track recordings.

    Scott (48:16)

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (48:33)

    Like this sounds like fucking bullshit and then that's what we ended up coming out on an LP.

    Scott (48:36)

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (48:42)

    Well, I mean, I didn't know that we could take those reels and get them remixed elsewhere. You know, I was like super ignorant at the time. And we spent like $2,000 recording there.

    Yeah, exactly. yeah, that was that was one thing at the time. Like the guy was like, yeah. This is three reels of tape, a reel of tape at the time was like one hundred and fifty dollars. So we had to we had to buy those reels. The guy at the first studio didn't make us buy because she just taped over it, I'm sure. But I wish that we had that reel now, because of course. Yeah, exactly. But.

    Scott (48:56)

    Yes.

    Okay.

    Yep, it's.

    Josh Dobbs (49:31)

    Basically, basically. But you're not learning about the real technical stuff that way. so I was always a little envious of people that had gone to recording school. And I was even going to Valencia in 2003, to sign up for the recording program, didn't even dawn on me for some reason. I'm just not wired for go to school, I guess.

    Scott (49:32)

    Yes. Does it thump? Does it smack?

    Sure, sure.

    mean,

    you want it to sound good, right? Like you want everything you put out. Yes.

    Josh Dobbs (50:04)

    Hey.

    Yeah.

    I get confused by that nonsense too. That's one reason a lot like, everybody has their own recording technology now. So I'm like, just, you know, I'm like, if you want to have me there, I love being there when the, when the band is tracking drums, I'm kind of obsessed with drums. So I like to be there when the drummer to make sure that the energy is happening. And I'm like, you know, if you guys have the means to add to do your own guitars and bass, because I really hate being around for hearing the same guitar riff.

    Scott (50:26)

    Yeah, and

    that's what I'm saying. Like the level of attention and detail you put in, you could charge three times as much money easily and you'd be worth it. Not to me though. Not to me, but other people, I give you too much work.

    I hope you get work from the work

    I gave you. I hope the bands come back to you.

    Josh Dobbs (50:52)

    like 50 times over and over. So I'm like, you know, if you have the means and you want to do it, like, you know, save yourself some money, record it at home, even do the vocals at home, because I really hate recording vocals too.

    Because every

    single singer, every single singer, either too, they're either not prepared, or they're like reading off their phone, or they're like too critical of themselves. So typically one of the two, it's rare that a singer is prepared. There's definitely a few singers that are totally prepared. Like whenever I record Vicious Dreams, Amanda's like, she knows all the lyrics. She'll do like,

    Scott (51:12)

    Yep.

    I mean, if you had to, if they did say, want to send it to get mastered do you have people you trust you send people to?

    Okay.

    because it's probably helpful to have someone that understands

    you and your recording process to master it.

    Josh Dobbs (51:37)

    Two takes of each song and that's all we need.

    Scott (51:40)

    Yep.

    Yes, exactly.

    Josh Dobbs (51:58)

    Yeah, I think it's just like you want to

    I think you want to have something to fall even if you know the lyrics is you want to have something to fall back on but it's having that crutch that's gonna hold you back from from getting to the full level. Yeah, it's holding you back from hitting your full like potential.

    Scott (52:04)

    Yeah.

    That's smart.

    Ha

    I like that. I like that a lot.

    Josh Dobbs (52:20)

    So I always try to tell people, it's just preparation. The guy in Sun Studio, knew that he saw we were a three piece. We finished recording and he's like, man, if I had known you guys were just this few tracks, I would have recorded on the 16 track heads instead of the 24 heads. And what that means, it's like, it's the space of the tape. So it was two inch tape, so it would have been divided into 16 ways instead of 24.

    Scott (52:22)

    So that's fascinating.

    I mean it kind of makes sense though, right? Like you look at the bands you love and you're like where did they record? How does it sound? I want to go there and you look at, you know, if record labels, like some record labels have a really cohesive sound.

    Not all of them do.

    Josh Dobbs (52:48)

    So it would have been like that fatter of a sound, which is like, I've always wanted that. like, so, I mean, I've hated that guy ever since. Like, fuck this guy.

    Scott (52:59)

    I have you ever gotten a band that I didn't release the record But maybe like they bought one of the records and they had they had their own tracks and like who should we get this to master and they Send it to you going. Hey, we love how you mastered this live album and I'm sending it your way Sir kids know No, there means behind us. I'm just curious

    Josh Dobbs (53:00)

    Yeah, it would have taken him maybe like 20 minutes to change this thing out. So, super annoying. But hopefully we have a documentary of that coming out sometime soon. Yeah, so we're trying to get that together for next year.

    So, the danger room was where we used to practice at my mom's house. That was, yeah, was where we would smoke a bunch of dope and practice and stuff like that. And then one day I discovered credit cards and I was like, this is amazing. And we had that Mars music was in Orlando and they were closing down and everything was like 10, 20 % off, something like that. So was like, I'm gonna go up there with my credit card. There's a guitar I really wanna get.

    Scott (53:24)

    Okay. With a mixin?

    Okay.

    Yes.

    Josh Dobbs (53:53)

    I'm either gonna get this guitar and fucking learn how to be a shredder, which, PS, that was never ever gonna happen. Or I'm gonna buy a bunch of recording gear. So then I got there, the guitar was gone, so then I bought like a little mixing board and some microphones and some stands. And then that was it. So it just started out on the four track, right? And then the first band, what sounded really good on the four track was this band, Farm Toast.

    Scott (53:58)

    Yep.

    So what settings should they have it on?

    Okay, I'm looking at my phone right now. Let see if I have it on there. All right, I'm gonna go to my settings.

    Josh Dobbs (54:22)

    who were this awesome grungy heavy band from around here and my friend Max, he was going to the recording school of Valencia. So I would try to pick up little things where could from him. But it sounded amazing, This little four track recording, I'm like, this sounds fucking awesome. I was like, I've gotta upgrade to the next step. And I saw on eBay, there's a tape machine in New York that was for sale.

    Scott (54:26)

    Let's see if I'm smart enough to have not already had this here. All right, let's see here. Settings, there it is. Playback.

    And

    enable audio normalization. Boom, turned it off. Equalizer, play feedback sounds, auto play similar content, gapless playback. Yeah, that's

    Josh Dobbs (54:51)

    It's this guy. I don't know if you can really see it. Can you see it? He has a 16 inch or a 16 track Tascam one inch tape. So I won this tape machine for like, it was like $1,600 maybe. And I went up there and it was in a studio in like a big high rise building. I sat in the turns out the studio was like, what the hell is the band? I've told you about this before.

    Scott (54:55)

    Yeah.

    Done. Nope, that's it. It's out. So I'm going to listen to this shit now. When I'm in my car for now. Thank you. Done. Sweet. Everyone else should do the same thing. That'll sound better.

    So what, do any projects you're working on right now that you're super stoked about that are not mine?

    Josh Dobbs (55:19)

    It was a John Spencer Blues Explosions, like in-house tape machine. And then the guy was like so fucking annoyed to be selling it to me for that price. Cause he was like, this thing was like 16 grand when it first came out. And I was like, okay. And then, so then we hauled it down to Florida. And I found out right away that recording a four track versus the 16 track was a way different ball game.

    Scott (55:20)

    Of course you are.

    Can't wait for that.

    They probably should. We should probably coordinate

    that together with them if they want to. I'm happy to coordinate.

    Yeah, for our upcoming live in the end record that'd be smart.

    Josh Dobbs (55:46)

    so that it's, then the recording's sounded like garbage for X amount of time, You're always on a learning curve, so.

    Scott (55:51)

    Yeah, and it's okay to do some singles.

    That's one of those things I always try and coordinate with bands. like, let's release some singles, you know, heading up to it. But like a fair number of bands, you know, late, especially in the last year, either don't want to release any singles of the live album and or certainly don't want to put it up on bandcamp. I'm like, okay, this up to you. Like I don't care about the digital in the real sense, other than that it's advertising for the live album and it's just advertising for you. And the more popular you are, the more the record sells. like bands.

    Josh Dobbs (56:02)

    Yeah. So then we had a reel. So me and my friend Mike moved out and we started this studio for real in a place right next to I-4. And we were like, you know, all the cars on I-4, we'll cover up the sound of all these bands. So we recorded a shit ton of bands in there. To record Fashion Fashion, The Image Boys, Country Slashers. Tons of stuff. Reason of Insanity.

    Scott (56:26)

    Freeze.

    What?

    Yeah. The most common thing I get is

    Josh Dobbs (56:34)

    But all that stuff, so when I, not going to school, I never learned about like phase correlation and stuff like that. So that was one of those things I was always like, is there something I'm missing from not going to school? You know, and that was it, because I listened to all these recordings and they all sound like out of phase.

    Scott (56:36)

    like, I don't want to post the same song as we already have a studio version of us. Like, yes, but the live version is different. You also have a studio version of a record and you have the live version of a different, you know, it's, it's okay to have two versions of the same song if they're live in studio. Like that's okay. Yeah. I don't, I don't get it. It's fine.

    Josh Dobbs (56:54)

    So it's like, you know, when you're a drummer and you're hitting the snare drum like as hard as you can and then you listen back to the tape and it sounds like there's no snare drum there. It's because the overheads are hearing the snare drum at a different time than the closed snare mic. So it's like kind of like just killing your snare. You can hear it even on like the Bad Brains first album. mean, it's an amazing album, but like some of that stuff you can tell is out of phase.

    Scott (57:01)

    It's fine. That's why I just try and focus on the vinyl, but I do try and guide people like this is how it should go to at least like help promote the record.

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (57:24)

    Because the snare drum is just like not hitting the way it should. Yeah, yeah. And then you can really fuck it up. If you add an under snare mic, you're going to make it sound even worse because you're adding another element where it's out of phase. So it wasn't until I recorded the band Curtains in 2019 that Wes Snowden played bass in that band and he's like, you know, everything is out of

    Scott (57:27)

    So you sent me a record or what was that record that was sent to be burned on a wire or... Where's that killed?

    That

    was a really good record. sounded good. It was lathe cut and still sounded really good.

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (57:53)

    at a phase I didn't quite understand what that meant but then him between him and Mikey Cortez they helped me figure all this stuff out so cheers to those guys

    Scott (57:56)

    Yeah.

    Ha ha!

    Josh Dobbs (58:08)

    But, yeah, that's one thing I forgot to mention. The Orlando studios that inspired me, was Spot Studios. There was all these punk kids that went to full sale and they recorded a bunch of stuff in the 90s.

    Scott (58:09)

    Why?

    Yeah, that'd be disaster. Look at you with your adamantium. Your adamantium claws. Oh yeah, guess some people might not be watching. Like he's waving around these like amazing adamantium Wolverine claws.

    Josh Dobbs (58:26)

    and Mark Egnafo from Real Time, he recorded some of my favorite stuff. So those are some of places that people were going in Orlando.

    Scott (58:29)

    I forget not everybody watches,

    some people listen.

    Did you do the last Antagonizer album that came out?

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (58:42)

    Not really, no, all the spot guys were kind of gone from Orlando and Geraldo played in a catheter and capitalist casualties. So actually met him, but from going on tour, cause he lived in Colorado, but Mark, Mark only became friends with after COVID. So, so it's cool catching up with these people like 25 years later.

    Scott (58:44)

    That was a great fucking album.

    And one of the beauties

    of that, their record hadn't sold in a little bit, but as soon as that CD came out and people went to Bandcamp to buy the CD, they bought the record. And I basically sold out of the record in a month or two after the CD came out, because people kept going to buy the CD and then buying the record. was like, and this is why I like bands to put their shit on Bandcamp, because when they put up new releases, people come back and look at their old releases.

    Josh Dobbs (59:08)

    Yeah.

    Yes, but now, and then we had the danger room, which was the storage space behind my job.

    It hasn't been the same ever since. Since then I've been recording people mobile, going to people's houses, and it's still, feel like I can get anything to sound good anywhere I go, but mean that place had like the magic.

    Scott (59:32)

    And they're

    always evolving too. but they don't discount their old sound. Like they're not like, Hey, no, we sound like this now. That stuff's no longer relevant because we don't play those songs live as much or that's not how we sound. feel like they still own, they moved to the future while still owning their past.

    Josh Dobbs (59:47)

    No, we can't use it. My job was paying like $500 a month to use that space and then like a real place came in and it's giving like the Plaza big bucks. So it was a boxing, a boxing gym. So I kind of wanted to take boxing lessons so I can beat the shit out of the owner for taking. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's all sorts of awful things in there.

    Scott (59:56)

    yeah, that's fucking great. I have the same shirt.

    Be a-

    Okay.

    I saw them with their new drummer at Fest last year and the show they put on was so, it was jaw-droppingly great. I was like, this is so fucking good. Like, I am so excited. I was like, I've seen them before, but this was like the best I'd ever seen them. And it wasn't just the change in drummer, was everything. The stage show, the new songs, I was like, so fucking good.

    Josh Dobbs (1:00:33)

    yeah, in that way, yeah, to record somebody else for sure. Yeah. I'd done it to record my own stuff before. And yeah, just, I guess I had thought about doing it before, but I'd never actually done it. So it was like the fact that you got that out of the way. And it just proved to me like, this is, this really isn't that hard, you know?

    Scott (1:00:55)

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (1:00:57)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:01:00)

    Really?

    Josh Dobbs (1:01:03)

    huh.

    Scott (1:01:05)

    Wow, okay.

    Josh Dobbs (1:01:08)

    felt bad because there's people walking up and down the street in costumes because it was around Halloween and they wanted to come in and we had to turn them away at the door. It's not often at a punk show you're turning people away.

    Scott (1:01:11)

    Okay.

    I love that, that's awesome. And that's

    how everything works. Our community is really small. It's odd that it is that I didn't actually meet you until I'd been in Orlando for like eight years maybe? You were technically the only person I knew in Orlando, because we'd played together twice in Baltimore. But I had no idea that your band was in Orlando and we hadn't kept in touch past those shows. So I didn't know that you were around.

    Josh Dobbs (1:01:24)

    That's a little silly.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    yeah, yeah, that was a great show.

    Scott (1:01:49)

    And then when Call in Dan went to record it for the first time, you sent me stuff and I thought I sounded great and Chris was adamant about using his old buddy that had recorded his old like ska whatever band, you know, and I was like, okay. And then I was like, and you're like, hey, don't you know, I was like, I was in the road. was like, oh my foot, how did I not know? We should have been hanging out for years.

    Josh Dobbs (1:01:52)

    Probably. Yeah. But, I mean, that went awesome.

    doing that versus just like the other live streams? not, not really. I mean, you should have to keep an eye on the mics more because you people bouncing around and stuff like that. But.

    Scott (1:02:14)

    Yeah,

    yeah, I know, I know.

    Josh Dobbs (1:02:19)

    I it was cool. wanted... Uh oh.

    Scott (1:02:19)

    Yes! Which

    is totally hilarious!

    That's how I met J.Krak, like old buddy of yours.

    Josh Dobbs (1:02:36)

    Yeah, or like, you know, we do, we're doing a stiletto and we went to like, they're, practice in a tiny bedroom and this sounds like fucking huge and slamming. So, so I kind of tell people now, like this whole recording studio thing is, a myth. I'm like, maybe, maybe, maybe I sound stupid to people, but I don't care. It's like, if you know what you're doing, like there are, there there are standing waves in every single room, even in like the recording studios that you love.

    Scott (1:02:46)

    Yeah.

    Okay,

    so I changed it and ended up recording somewhere else.

    Ah,

    gotcha. Oh, okay, is that when we did that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of just how it goes. you know, there's availabilities and you want to get it done and this is when we have the time. And if you're, you know, if you're booked with someone else, so you feel like you miss out a lot by being overbooked or.

    Josh Dobbs (1:03:07)

    So if you know how to find the frequencies and get rid them, you can make anything sound good.

    Scott (1:03:19)

    wow.

    Okay.

    Wow. Okay.

    Okay.

    Josh Dobbs (1:03:36)

    Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Not too long, though I mean if you're recording like a band not in a live situation, it's ideal if you have like other rooms you can use for separation. So throw an amp in another room. My main, oh yeah, so my main thing is I try to get the bands to record like they're a band. Like a lot of, and a lot of people don't expect that. They think, oh, we have to get the drums first, we're gonna do scratch tracks, right? And I think that was the thing.

    Scott (1:03:49)

    And when they say, you say, the fuck's this song?

    Yeah.

    You know, I always feel like why

    wouldn't you just put out your best song?

    You know,

    I know when I was recording, even going back to when I was 16, we thought about song order in a certain way. was like, your first song should be your second best song, and then your best song should be your second, because you want someone to really like the first song and then think that the next song that comes after it is even better, because that may be as far as they go.

    Josh Dobbs (1:04:15)

    Even with Chris, the first guitars were just supposed to be scratch tracks. But then we ended up saving some of those songs that he thought weren't even usable. Because I'm like, we can just get the quote unquote scratch tracks to sound album worthy. And they do, you know?

    Scott (1:04:36)

    Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (1:04:40)

    Yeah, exactly.

    Scott (1:04:43)

    Yeah?

    Absolutely, and then you'd go to Tower Records

    or Borders and you'd put the headphones on and you'd listen to the first track and the second track, you'd oh yeah, I'm gonna buy this CD. And then you bought it you're like, well, so be it.

    Josh Dobbs (1:04:56)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, exactly.

    Yeah, everybody should record as a fucking band. I hate when... I hate the overdubbing.

    Scott (1:05:05)

    It's like,

    I guess the other songs are okay.

    yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (1:05:14)

    Yeah, like I did have one band like back in the, when I was recording on Hazel Street, the vocalist insisted that he'd be recording live. So he's in this other room screaming his head off and the band plays like a perfect take and he comes in and he's like, I kind of messed that up a little bit. Can we do that one again? I'm like, absolutely fucking not. You're not doing it again. It's like, you can overdub your vocals. The band is not doing it again because you messed up like one word. So.

    Scott (1:05:15)

    Yep, it's

    all that matters, one or two good songs. I think there was a NOFX song about dinosaurs or whatever on Pump Up the Volume that talked about retired bands having just put in albums with only one or two good songs. The idea that like, yeah, that the idea.

    It

    kind of followed the idea that my old band The Overprivileged had that like physical media would go away and we would decentralize music and that the bands would all own and manage their own online presence and that they would get rid of corporations and manage it all on our own and record labels would no longer need to exist. It's kind of like, but you know, we have Spotify, right? And you have, you know, even Bandcamp, but like we're talking, it was like 2001 and we would post

    Josh Dobbs (1:05:46)

    Yeah, of course, yeah.

    They are, can be, yeah, we know that.

    That's honestly the thing I've learned the most is just trying to figure out how to deal with people. And it's like most people want the same things that you want. They want it to come out in a timely manner. They want it to be cost effective. They want it to sound good. And you know, the things that are the biggest hindrances are when I get, sometimes you'll have someone that like thinks I'm like nickel and diming them. It's like, I'm just going by time.

    Scott (1:06:04)

    all of our songs for free download on our website and then we would actually add a site where we'd offer all the bands that we liked as well for free download because we're big open source people that just believe that information wanted to be free and that the real point of music was to get people so pumped they would come to your show and sing along and that your record and your CD and tape is just cheap plastic crap and you owe...

    no one owns, like once you down that one, that music, it's yours to do it as you want. And like, yeah. But we're not, right? Like.

    Josh Dobbs (1:06:33)

    You know what mean? I'm

    not here to fucking rip you off. Especially I'm like way cheaper than like anybody else.

    Scott (1:06:36)

    You don't distribute, like people use DistroKid and you pay money to send it Spotify who makes money off of you and pays you nothing. Like we actually did not go to the model that I envisioned 20 years ago. 20 years ago, I thought it'd be like, every band will have their own cheap website and you'll just go to a band's website and you'll hit play and it'll be streaming from the band's website and you'll never have to like own any physical media. But like every band will get the money for it, whatever it is. If they put a paywall up there or if they do whatever, was like bands are

    Josh Dobbs (1:06:45)

    Nobody's trying to pull one over on you.

    Yeah, that's why I tell people that they should just, if they can just record this. Everybody seems to have some sort of like audio interface. So, so I tried like, I try to more collaborate with people and then that's where I get into just like, you know, being able to just mix for other people. So, you know, that's awesome. And it also brings another set of problems because it's like, how did this person, this person that did not know how to track this or they had like a shitty microphone.

    Scott (1:07:06)

    control their distribution. I was wrong. Yeah, it would be right. I mean, I like physical media, right? I run a record player, like I get it, like I have a record label. But like, the idea that bands don't have to like kowtow to a corporation was always something I wanted to be a reality.

    Yeah, it's a real bitch. I give out a playlist every week that I make and I'm like, part of me is like, do I really want to continue to encourage Spotify as a thing? But I also don't really like Bandcamp. So I don't like how they manage payouts. I don't like how much it costs to have a pro account. Yeah, I just don't like any of that stuff.

    Josh Dobbs (1:07:47)

    And yeah, and usually the people are like, yeah, let me send you this. I didn't send you this and they're great about getting back to me. I mean, communication is the thing that's, just being able to communicate.

    I would say I like being there when the drums are tracking and trying to encourage the band just to get that energy factor. even had, there's a band, right now me and my friend Nicky are starting to record it. We're gonna start recording at his space and the first band we're recording is Hutch and it's Ziggy and Ben from Sad Halen. And that was one of the most positive recording sessions I ever had was recording this single for them.

    Scott (1:08:13)

    When I put records

    up and the band puts up their digital too, I have the digital go to them for paid out and I only get the physical records. I'm the guy that's mailing out the records so I get that. And then eventually I'll have a band go, hey, we sold an album, like digital album for like seven bucks and we got no money for it. It said that it's something to do with you selling physical records. I'm like, yeah, so like when we sold the physical record, they don't take the money out right away and then they take it out from the digital sales.

    Josh Dobbs (1:08:39)

    And you know, I was talking to them. like, you know, I'm going to be recording with Nikki here and like, but you know, he's, you know, we get to pay, you guys have to pay him for his space. And I was like, so if you want to just track it with him and I can just mix and master it. And he's like, you know, that's cool. But you know, I want you to be there. It's like our good luck charm or whatever. I'm like, what? You know, it means a lot to you're saying that. I really appreciate that. So I like to be there and helps help steer the energy. But I mean, I hate being around if somebody wants to like.

    Scott (1:08:47)

    Yeah, yeah. So then I have to like explain like

    it's basically they're taking the cost of it. So I guess technically I could pay you because you should have gotten paid for your digital and that money should have been taken out of my physical purchase.

    Josh Dobbs (1:09:09)

    nail some guitar solo for like three hours like you're not getting anything from me if i'm there for that so

    Scott (1:09:12)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah,

    I mean, you could, you could. And know, most of us at Banshees don't want to be bothered to mail physical stuff. It's a pain in the ass.

    yeah,

    yeah, I I have a laser printer now that like so I can do it. It's just I just drop off but like, you know, I like every other month I sit down and go, okay, here's all my orders. Let me spend a couple hours packing. And I hate it. I don't like packing records. Yeah.

    Josh Dobbs (1:09:27)

    Yeah.

    ahead.

    Yeah, that's why, yeah, people try to act like you're an idiot for recording hourly. You're not, if you give a flat rate and a band does that, you're screwed.

    Scott (1:09:47)

    Hi, my brother. Anything else you want to share, my man?

    Alright well, we'll wrap this up for little over an hour I think even without our glitches and nothing. So thank you everyone for listening. This has been Scene Support with DCxPC Live Joshua Dobbs This comes out about every other week. I say about because sometimes I'm a little bit slow because life gets hard. This should be out in like less than a month or two. So if you're listening, thank you very much. Tune in for more and Josh, always a pleasure to do it. Love you buddy.

    Josh Dobbs (1:10:04)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:10:26)

    Alright,

    later.

  • Episode 20: Dave “Face” Boccio

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know what it takes to keep a scene going and today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out. This week on Scene Support, I am sitting down with Dave “Face” Boccio, the eye behind Face Photo, based in the Hudson Valley. Dave has spent the last 12 years capturing everything from bands and graffiti artists to festivals and street culture, building a reputation for his raw, energetic style. What started as photographing alligators in Florida has grown into a career documenting music, art, and the community across New York and beyond. I first met Dave at one of the last Chance shows in July of 2023. I had just moved to the Hudson Valley and lucked into a gig drumming for a local punk band named Leave It Behind.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (00:47)

    Thank you.

    Scott (01:11)

    From the moment I met him, I was struck by his sense of humor, his urgency behind the camera, and his overall kindness. Since then, the only thing better than seeing Dave's smiling face is seeing the dope photos he takes of hardcore, punk, ska, and metal shows in the Hudson Valley and beyond.  While the scene is obviously about music, it's impossible not to acknowledge the importance of photographing and capturing everything exciting about punk, hardcore, ska, and metal.  Growing up between DC and New York, I was always inspired by the DIY photographers who gave the scene its visual memory. People like Glenn E. Friedman, who caught

    Fugazi hanging upside down from a basketball hoop. Cynthia Connolly, who's Banned in DC, became a visual history of an entire community. And BJ Pappas, who shot some bad bands like Agnostic Front and Sick of It All defined New York City for a generation. Those photos weren't just documentation. They became part of the culture itself. And in all my 30 years, I've rarely encountered a talent whose work I admire as much as Dave's.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (02:01)

    That's crazy.

    That was very good though.

    Scott (02:03)

    That was exceptionally

    long. I apologize for that everybody. I thought that was in it. And I think I said hardcore, punk, ska, and metal at least three times.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (02:11)

    Now Candy Man's gonna come out.

    Scott (02:11)

    That's okay. I didn't

    say Indie Rock. I didn't say Math Rock.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (02:18)

    There we go.

    Scott (02:20)

    Alright, so I don't ever prepare questions for this sort of thing. This is just me sitting down having a cup of coffee, even though I think you gave up coffee, which is crazy to me.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (02:30)

    I cheated though. I had a cup yesterday and I had a cup today. Not gonna lie. And it was freaking delicious. Oh, I'm back. Yeah, yeah. I'm probably not gonna do like 200 ounces in a day, you know, gonna, I'm gonna, you know, moderation. I heard that's kind of good. Right? I heard that. I don't know. I gotta Google it.

    Scott (02:32)

    Yeah.

    Wasn't it friggin'

    Yeah.

    I heard that's a thing, but I'm not really sure. I'm not very good at it myself.

    Alright, so like, you can start here everyone. You can tell me how you got into Hardcore and Punk itself, or you wanna start how you got into photography. Mix and match it, too. Weave it together. Tell the stories for people out there that don't know you and love you like I do.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (03:10)

    Word, okay, so back in like, I think it was like 94, 95, I was introduced to this band called Dissolve. They were out of the Hudson Valley, they just had their last show a few months ago, close to New Haven at a

    I forget the venue it was like Space Ballroom or something like that. And it was their last show ever. I've known those guys close to 30 years. They introduced me to everybody, but they welcomed me in. And when I first saw them, it was kind of interesting because I loved the band right away. But then I saw the singer in the mall the next day. And he approached me. It was just like, hey, how you doing? You're the guy at the show kind of thing. And I was like.

    Scott (03:30)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (03:56)

    Whoa, he's like friendly, you know, it's just like one of those. I'm like this little grom, know, with a skateboard kind of thing, you know, like I'm like, why is he talking to me kind of, you know, it's just it didn't make sense, you know, because like I was listening to like Slayer at the time, like a lot of heavier bands, you know, and I was very into like Minor Threat, Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, but a lot of metal as well, you know, just mixed together. And I saw this band, they were kind of experimental and I just like kind of stuck with them. That's that was like my intro.

    Scott (03:58)

    Yeah!

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (04:26)

    to Hudson Valley hardcore. And Dissolve was very, they were heavy, but they were very experimental. And I always latched on to more experimental music.

    And like, I'm still friends with those guys today. They hit me up. They were just like, we're doing our last show. We want you to photograph it. It's only right. And I was just like, dude, I'm honored. I will be there. It was like a Sunday night, two songs in, I get clocked in the pit. Next day I had like a boardroom meeting because I work a very corporate job as well. And I had like a black eye you know, it was, was, was a great night. I loved it. And it just like stemmed from there. And I was just like a fan, you know, cause it was just like, wow, all these like misfit people.

    Scott (04:44)

    Fuck yeah dude!

    Yeah.

    That's awesome.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (05:07)

    you know, because like I come from a conservative family. So I was like, I'm an experimental person. Like they say, no, I why? Like I want to check it out, you know, and between like just that mental that mentality that I have that and skateboarding, you know, because that was my ticket to freedom, you know, because now out in the world and I'm seeing things, whether it's on the street in a park or whatever, you know, you see things differently, you know, so that separated me more from my family. But then I found like hardcore

    Scott (05:13)

    Yeah.

    Sure.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (05:37)

    punk rock and I was like wow these are like my people and then build the tribe from there you know and I kind of never turned back like I straightened up a little bit because I had some problems back in the day like you know everybody else so I straightened my act up went to school I went to school for production like music production recorded bands produced a few bands all that stuff and I was

    Scott (05:39)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (06:05)

    straightening out my life even more and the lady I was gonna marry was like, need to get a real job kind of thing, know, stop chasing musicians. So I got into IT and went the corporate route, you know, and, still would dabble into the shows and still skating and all that. Like I never fully left it, you know, because it was like in my heart, because it was like, that was my first acceptance, you know, it was like kind of a beautiful thing. And I just really never turned back. Like I might've not gone to a show for like a year.

    Scott (06:28)

    Yeah, I that entirely.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (06:35)

    you know and it was just like what if like Dissolve was playing or like a friend's band I would always make it a point to go check them out you know and then

    It was like 2000 2004. I moved to Florida and my home. Yeah, I know. That's what I was saying to the St. Pete area, which was it was good because like I was going to move to Indiana because I was going strictly for school and in Fort Wayne, Indiana, they had the program that I wanted. And the girl I was with was like, I'm not moving to Indiana. So like I dodged a bullet on that one. You know, we got to go to Florida. They have that thing, too. And I was like, that's

    Scott (06:51)

    Sorry.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (07:15)

    heaven's waiting room like all that stuff you know I got to be there you know it's like what are you gonna do in Indiana you one of those things you know I was like touche so we went to Florida it was great it did really well for me but like I'm a New Yorker you know but while I was down there my homies in Brooklyn

    Scott (07:17)

    Yeah

    Dave “Face” Boccio (07:35)

    They were like, no, you live too far north, no alligators, nothing like that. So I bought a camera and just started chasing alligators just to show them, you know? And that was like my intro to photography.

    Scott (07:41)

    Okay.

    Like

    a throwaway camera, like a real camera, because I see the camera you have now, it's fancy.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (07:48)

    It was like a professional

    point and shoot. I have friends that were photographers already. So I was like, you have any old cameras? Like one of those things. So I just bought like a used, it was like a Canon PowerShot Pro, blah, blah, blah, you know? No, it was digital. It was digital. Yeah. Prior to that, I was shooting film through like high school and every once in a while I would like shoot a roll or whatever, but nothing like really stuck.

    Scott (08:01)

    Was it so actual film or was it digital even then? Okay.

    Okay.

    So you did some photography in high school too, so you were not just totally like out of nowhere.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (08:17)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Right, right.

    Exactly. I wasn't serious about it, though. You know, like I was pretty much there to hide out in the dark room and do stupid things. You know, yeah, you know, dumb adolescent kid, you know. But everything that I did in high school made a show or like the school magazine kind of thing, you know. So there was a couple of people that like saw that, like one in particular, this girl, Jessica McEwen. She was always like, you need to do this. You need to do this. You need to do this.

    Scott (08:27)

    Got it.

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (08:49)

    and then after Florida I moved back to New York and I was like, hey, I think I'm gonna like look into this. So she helped me quite a bit, like giving me direction and she was like professional photographer herself. I was doing like weddings and like right off the bat I was like, I know I don't wanna do that, you know?

    Scott (08:55)

    Okay. Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (09:06)

    I brought my camera to the city and that was it. I was just like, yo, this is where it's at. So I just started building as a street photographer. I got millions of photos. Like I have one computer in my storage unit that has like 1.7 million photos on it. But I haven't, yeah. And that was, I haven't touched that thing in maybe 10 years.

    Scott (09:21)

    Holy shit.

    And like, they uploaded

    to a cloud or are they just on that thing waiting?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (09:27)

    Not those,

    no, because those were like my early day stuff, so I was just like, some of that stuff doesn't even see the light of day, you know?

    Scott (09:32)

    It doesn't need to

    be there. No posterity, no nothing. I don't want bringing those out of my funeral, plastering them everywhere.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (09:38)

    Yeah.

    Yeah. And then, yeah, the street was it for me. And I just kept doing it, you know, just like I never stopped. The camera was like always there for me.

    And then this guy, JB, who worked at Darkside Records. I'm a record collector, you know, so I was always in Dark Side and I became friends with this guy too, because I bought an amp head from him off of Craigslist. He calls me up. He's like, yeah, I got it. I was like, well, you don't sound like a psycho. Come on over. You know, so I invite some random dude from Craigslist to my place, you know, and we just like really hit it off. And everywhere I went, he would like pop out. So one day I go to Dark Side when it was on Main Street in Poughkeepsie.

    Scott (09:59)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (10:25)

    and I'm going through the crates and I just hear, dude, and I look up, it's him. I'm like, yo, I didn't know you work here. You know, we just like became friends and all that. I lived in Beacon at the time and I would shop at his wife's store, you know, and then like one day he's like, I'm in this band, Dead Empires.

    You want to shoot us at House of Yes in Brooklyn? And I'm like, yeah, I'll take a stab at that. He was under the impression because I've been in the hardcore scene so long and we knew all the same people. He thought I was already like a band photographer. That was my first shoot. Yeah, that memory actually just came up on Facebook and I was just like, oh, that's pretty crazy. 2018. So what's that like six, seven years, seven years?

    Scott (10:47)

    Okay.

    okay.

    And how long ago was that?

    Okay, so.

    What would you say was the biggest difference, you know, going from the street, which the street has some action if you're getting like, you know, vehicles and people and skateboarders walking by animals, et cetera, but it's still a little bit more slow paced. I would imagine versus doing this. How did it change? What did you have to do differently? What did you notice differently?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (11:15)

    Mm-hmm.

    in waves.

    everything. The only thing

    from street photography that I was able to bring was that that candid feel like finding that like specific moment like knowing like say when RBNX like they play like blue lies once I hear I know my spot boom got it you know

    That helped me. Street photography helped me a lot in that. So I was very grateful for street photography and just like being fast with the shots and seeing things before they happen, because there's a lot of intuition and you kind of have to manifest in a way. Like if you ever watch me shoot at shows, I'm talking to myself. You know, like I got picked on a few times from people like, who are you talking to? in headphones? And I'm like, no, I'm just talking to my crazy self. You know, it's just like when I see a musician like looking at the neck on the guitar or whatever, I'm like, look up.

    Scott (12:16)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (12:16)

    look up, up, look up, gotcha, you know, as soon as they do it, you know, like one of those things, but I'm like voicing it out, you know? Exactly. Yeah.

    Scott (12:22)

    Like you're trying to manifest that stuff happening. I want this to happen. know,

    obviously, and I don't mean to interrupt your story, but like you brought up RBNX already. You're basically like the fourth member and you're on all their shows. You're taking photographs of them. How do you maintain that level of urgency and action with them? I mean, you're seeing them and like, does it...

    Dave “Face” Boccio (12:29)

    too.

    love those guys.

    Scott (12:52)

    You know the song so well, you know them so well. Do you still get surprised with things? it still like, do you still have to like think, I was like, this is, cause I see them and I still hear and see new things with them, but I've only been watching them for two and a half years. You've been watching them for so long. Like how does it, how does that operate in your head? Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (13:06)

    Right. Yeah. You know what the funny thing is?

    I couldn't tell you their lyrics. I know...

    Like I know, like I couldn't tell you most of the song titles. And I love these guys, you know? But it's like, I keep it as a surprise every show so I don't get sick of them because like I get sick of things really fast. The fact that I've been doing photography this long is like, wow, I do have, I can commit to things. That's cool. You know, like it's neat. But like with bands, I don't, I'll listen to them. I give them a once over just to get an idea. I'll see their live performance. And I'm like, okay, now I have an idea.

    Scott (13:28)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (13:46)

    of what I want to shoot, you know? And then it keeps it fresh. So like every show

    If that makes sense, you know, so like.

    Scott (13:54)

    Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

    I mean, I don't...

    I don't overly listen to the bands that I do shows for because I want to just enjoy their music. I want to have some familiarity.

    it used to be that I would try and listen to like hours of every band I was gonna see so that I could sing along to every song. But now I'm like, I kind of just like to be surprised. I just like to hear it and then like organically just become aware of the songs as I've seen them a couple times in a row or something like that versus like listening to them over and over again. It's good to just go and experience it in the moment.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (14:16)

    Bro.

    Yeah, right?

    100%, yeah. And that's another thing that I like about photography as well, is it puts me in that moment. You know, I learned that through street photography because like, I'm a very ADHD person. I have like a stressful job, like all that. My head's in a million. I have mental channel surfing, all that stuff. So when I'm on the street, no music, nothing. I'm just on the street, on the hunt, and letting everything come to me.

    You know, like that, that's my process on the street. It's always just like, this is what I'm doing at shows. Kind of the same thing. I put my earplugs in as like I have like slider ones. So they go up to 27 decibels. So as high as they could go, I kind of like mute everything out just so I know where I can still hear like the songs and everything. But it's muffled and I just know like certain notes. And that triggers me to the shots.

    Scott (15:15)

    Yep.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (15:31)

    because I know notes lead to certain facial expressions and all that.

    Scott (15:36)

    Fascinating, okay.

    Yeah, like how do you, like I got two questions in my head here, so I'm go back to my, I'm gonna follow up where we're at. How do you know where to go? Like I watch you, and like, you know, sometimes you get up on stage, you're going to the drummer, you're going here, are you just going, okay, I've already got enough pictures of the singer and the bass player or the guitarist, drummer finally needs some photos, like do you just do it randomly, or do you like really have a sense of what you're doing?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (15:40)

    Yeah.

    It's a sense, it's a mental checklist. And it's just like, all right, I'm sick of looking at this guy, I'm going to the other side. You know, like one of those, or it's like, I flashed this flash so many times at this guy's face. I'm gonna let him play for a bit, you know, I'm gonna go bother the singer now or the bass player or whatever, you know, like one of those things. It's just like, that's all goes through my head.

    Scott (16:11)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (16:26)

    But yeah, it's like, again, just like intuition. just like, it reminds me of like, like Austin Powers when he's, when he's the photographer and he's like, and I'm spent. Like that's, yeah. That's it. You know, next person, you know, one of those things. Do I blow that?

    Scott (16:35)

    Yes, I exactly do.

    Do feel spent at the end of a show?

    Do you feel spent at the end of a show?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (16:48)

    No, because I know I gotta go home and edit. I usually feel spent at like four in the morning when I'm done and I'm like, okay, now tomorrow morning I'm gonna like, I'll edit till say like, if it's a lot of bands, I'll go straight through the night. And so everybody has their folders like the next day. You know, I hope everybody wakes up at noon, you know, kind of thing. So I actually have some time to relax.

    Scott (16:55)

    Yes.

    Is that a

    normal thing? Because Aaron does the same thing, with Put Over Photo I mean, I will go to bed and I'll wake up and I'll have like, he'll share me like five photos from every band for me to accept as a collaboration on my shows. I'm like, dude, it's really like, how are you not asleep? Like, what are you doing?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (17:18)

    Yeah, I love the fact that you're perfect.

    He's fat.

    Mm-hmm. Yeah. It... There is... It's not like a rule, but it's kind of like a guideline. You want everybody to have their stuff, like, kind of the next day. Because if you send it out the next week, there's gonna be another show.

    Scott (17:45)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (17:45)

    So that's the hot topic. So they're not going to talk about a show a week or two prior. They're going to be talking about the one that's actually happening now. So that's like my mentality through it, you know, because it's just like, plus I want to put it to bed because like once I do the shoot, I get everything edited. I package everything. I make a couple posts. Done.

    Scott (17:53)

    Sure.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (18:06)

    That's it. Unless somebody's asking for photos, I don't usually go back into the archives. Yeah, yeah. I'm not one to like look in the rear view. I try to look forward all the time, you know?

    Scott (18:11)

    and you're just done.

    Sure, I get that. So like, you

    talk about sharing, and I'm trying to think of the way you share, I get folders from you. And I saw like this last week, you shared from the Kill Lincoln show with RBNX and Millington, you had these kind of dope frames around them, but I don't think I'd seen you do that before. Was that something new you were doing?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (18:23)

    Yeah, yeah.

    I was falling.

    Yeah, that's something new that I've been doing for kind of just for Instagram kind of thing, you know, just like an online thing. I might start doing that in the finished packages. I'm kind of like experimenting with some stuff right now. Yeah, because I've also.

    Scott (18:41)

    Okay.

    Okay. Yeah, I was thinking it'd be cool if you came

    up with a frame that was like your brand.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (18:53)

    Yeah, yeah, because I have something like that as well with like face photo and all that.

    Scott (18:57)

    Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I didn't even say face.

    It's just like a certain color scheme or something. I mean, you did what like and white is obviously classic and you do a lot of black and white photos and stuff. yes, I noticed that. And do you do you normally share as collaborations with the bands? Like do you share like a set of five and collaborate or you just send them and let them decide what to share?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (19:03)

    Yeah.

    Right. Right.

    Usually

    just send them the whole folder and like whatever they want, you know, because I feel like I'm shooting for them I know what I like but I want to see what they like out of it. So that's also a cool thing Like my doppelganger and sometimes people mistake us

    Scott (19:28)

    Okay.

    Yeah, I'm still not sure which one's which. Yeah!

    Dave “Face” Boccio (19:39)

    Look, look

    at all the nice photos I take!

    Scott (19:43)

    Hahaha!

    Dave “Face” Boccio (19:49)

    Yeah, got two thirds of RBNX that I live with.

    Scott (19:54)

    I'm also sorry.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (19:56)

    No, I love it. It's great. We have a happy little family here. It's great. They're good. I keep them. They're good people.

    Scott (20:01)

    They're fine. They're good people.

    Are you going on tour

    with them in December, January?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (20:09)

    Yeah, yeah, I'm excited.

    Scott (20:13)

    One of the shows I

    just booked, they were like, oh, we have our own photographer. Is that OK with you? I was like, no, they have their own photographer. No one else is allowed to take photos. He's very sensitive. Anyone else takes photos around him, he punches him in the face. That's why he's known as Face Photo.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (20:22)

    you

    That's the egg. Exactly. Exactly.

    Scott (20:30)

    I

    told them that you were perfectly capable of working around multiple other photographers and giving everyone the respect that they need and everyone get in space and that it was no problem as long as their photographer wasn't going to be sensitive about it.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (20:38)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, I get people asking, like, does it bother you that you're shooting with other photographers? And I'm like, absolutely not. want the competition. want to, like, even if they're younger, I want to teach them stuff, you know, because they're going to get better. And that's just going to put me, that's going to make me better because I'm going to be like, shit, they actually got some skills. I got to amp up my game.

    Scott (20:50)

    Yeah!

    I like there

    would be a band being upset that other bands are playing, right? Like, you know, like you're playing a show with other bands and you want to have the other bands because you're gonna learn from them and they're gonna learn from you and you're all gonna grow together. So you wanna see other photographers and you wanna see what they caught that you didn't catch or the way they develop pictures differently or, you know, there's gotta be so many layers of nuance with photography that I'm too ignorant to know about.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (21:07)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Right, right.

    100%. Like even, like look at Aaron and I, right? Like we've been shooting a lot of shows together. We shoot the same bands, the same venues, but our photos are like night and day difference. know, he captures the movement and the lighting and all that. I get the grit and grime from punk rock and all that, you know? Yeah, just very different styles and...

    Scott (21:41)

    night and day.

    And I love both of your photos, but

    they're absolutely totally different.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (21:55)

    Yeah, Like completely different. And the funny thing is like, well, we poke fun at each other all the time. Like I love Aaron. He's good people. And I tried doing his style in the past and it's just like, it isn't me at all. You know, like I just, it's not my thing, you know.

    Scott (21:57)

    Yes.

    I it, it'd

    be like if I tried to join a metalcore band on drums. It's not my thing. I respect metalcore bands to a point. But I certainly can't drum for one.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (22:19)

    I get that, yeah.

    Right, right, exactly. It's the same like with portraits. Like I'm getting better with portraits now, but like when I had like a home studio at one point and I was like, I'm gonna do this. I hated it. Because A, I felt like a bird in a cage, right? You you shouldn't be a bird. If you're a bird, you shouldn't be in a cage kind of thing, you know? And I felt very just caged in, didn't like it. But I'm also a terrible director.

    Scott (22:30)

    Yeah.

    Yep.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (22:49)

    Like, I'm not good at like, try this pose, try this pose. I just throw on music. I'm like, yo, do your thing. I want to catch your, like, your essence, you know? And that was, like, what I would do. But.

    Scott (22:52)

    Sure.

    And I feel like

    that's actually like as a band member, live shots are ostensibly easier because we're just doing our thing and hopefully we play with some energy. But as a band, we're like, oh, we need to take a band photo. was like, oh, okay, are we standing against a brick wall? Are we gonna like sit on a porch? Are we gonna sit in a bar? Like, what are we gonna do that hasn't already been done? Am I allowed to smile? Should I look tough and angry? Like, I'm not really tough and angry. Like, it's so hard.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (23:10)

    Mm-hmm.

    Right, right. Yeah, the brick wall and then...

    Right.

    Right, every metal band does.

    Yeah.

    Scott (23:29)

    to get a non-action

    pose as a band. And I don't know what photographers are good at it. Like, I'm sure there are. But I'm drawn to the live shots anyway. you know, as a band I guess you're supposed to get those. Like, who, do you know anyone that you think is like, they're really good at taking still shots of bands that are just posing for whatever. Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (23:39)

    There was no

    Right.

    The one guy that I studied the most and I got

    to meet him a few times and talk to him was a guy named Mick Rock. To me, he's like bar none the best. Like he did Sid Barrett, David Bowie, the Queen, was it Queen Two album with the four heads or is that Queen Four? I'm getting the numbers. you know the album, yeah.

    Scott (24:14)

    I don't remember which one that is, but I the album, yes.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (24:18)

    Like pretty much any iconic photo of any of those guys that I just mentioned, he took, you know, and he kind of had like...

    the RBNX approach where he was like, he was a friend of Sid Barrett. So now he's in with Pink Floyd and he just had that like, you know, that all that time with them, you know, like that's what was a great thing with RBNX. That's when I first started shooting them. was like, do you mind if I come to your rehearsal so I could like, so I can practice, you know, to get to know you guys and to get to know your moves and all that. And that's exactly what Mick rocked it too. From what like he said and what I read and all that stuff, you know. So I went down that road and that that's helped me out so much.

    Scott (24:32)

    Sure.

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (24:57)

    you know,

    because I do have that like, it's like my own personal band that I was like, okay, let's go to the unit and let's get some photos, you know, so I get to practice as pretty much as much as I want.

    Scott (25:07)

    Does anyone

    ever ask you to do those sort of photos? do you? Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (25:10)

    Yeah, I've actually been doing a few. Yeah, I've

    been liking I have one coming up for Trouble Bound. So that's gonna be fun. Yeah, love Trouble Bound. They're fun. Who else? And Grave Heist. That's another one that I'm on the on the docket for with both great bands. Yeah, and great people too. Love them all.

    Scott (25:15)

    Nice.

    Good bands, both of them.

    I'm pretty sure it you that

    got the candid shot of WORLDSUCKS at The Rally where they were just kind of like sitting in a merch and they're kind of like looking at each other. And like that is definitely a band photo where they're not playing, but it just looks and it looks like who they are. Like that was a, that's a beautiful photo.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (25:35)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Thank you. They photograph so freaking well. So, oh my God, do they like, but we got photographs well, you know, like it really does. Like you can, yeah, you can have any beautiful person, but like look at Keith Richards, right? He's not a pretty person, but he looks great in photos. You know, it's just that. I think I have a marked photo pretty close.

    Scott (25:50)

    For such unattractive men, they do photograph very well.

    Yes.

    Alright so for those of watching on YouTube you're going get to see that. Yeah it looks dope. That looks great. Yeah. Look at that ugly dude.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (26:18)

    You know, like,

    yeah, beautifully ugly. It's, yeah. And that's what punk rock is. It's about the ugliness done in a beautiful way.

    Scott (26:22)

    Beautifully ugly.

    Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

    So have you ever been taking photos and been like just suddenly, you know, you're focusing on the photos, you have your earplugs in, but something just happens on stage and you're just like, I just stopped taking photos for a moment and I just lost myself. Like have you ever had a band make you just like forget what you were supposed to be doing?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (26:50)

    not forget, but there has been times where I'm like...

    I capture a moment in my brain and I'm like, I'm keeping that for myself. Kind of thing. You know, I'm not going to take that shot because that's mine. I'll have that one forever. You know, like that kind of stuff. I'll do that for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because I because I'm always like, you know, I'm a shutter bug. So I'm constantly like shooting, shooting, shooting. But something has to be inside, you know, because like a lot of the shots by the time I shoot it, I don't think about it at all. Like when people like, you got any good shots? My answer is always like, I hope so, because I don't I don't

    Scott (26:59)

    Okay.

    I like that.

    Yeah, you know, I mean,

    I've seen you just flick your hand the same way I would be like, know, flicking a fly away from you. like your camera's just doing this. I'm like, he's not even looking at what he's taking a picture of, but I know you are, I know you know what you're doing, but, and you don't seem to frequently look at your camera and check your picture either. Like I see a lot of photographers, well, they'll do the photos and then they check. You just seem to go like, fuck it, I'll look at it later, I'm just gonna keep going.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (27:24)

    No.

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    you

    Yep.

    Yeah, because I know my that's another thing street photography helped out. That's actually a good point. So street photography is all motion, right? And the funny thing is when I'm shooting on the street, I don't stop to take the picture, right? Because you're street, you're on the street. So you're part of that pulse. I don't stop. So I have to know my my distance. I have to know my shoulder like, you know, the exposure, I know that I know it all.

    Scott (28:04)

    Okay.

    Yeah, your shutter speeds and all that, all the technical stuff that I know nothing about.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (28:17)

    Okay, but I also know like the distance of like the focus range and all that. So it's just like, okay, this guy's three feet away, because I know my angle, you know, and that's all it is. My sister makes fun of me because she'll see like an Instagram live video, there was a Negative Raxxx video that went out and she sees me and I'm just like, you know, she's like, you look like a frickin ballerina at this show. You know, she's like, I

    Scott (28:21)

    Yeah.

    edit

    Ballerina at a Negative

    Raxxx show too, that's just, that's, that's a fucked up dude.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (28:44)

    That's, that's,

    yeah. Those guys, those guys are.

    Scott (28:48)

    Who taught you all

    that? I mean, or did you self-teach yourself? Like, I mean, understanding the angles, the time, the distance, the shutter speeds, and like even all the different lenses, like, you know, whether it's the fishbowl lenses, I don't know if you use those or not, but like, there's so many things to choose from and they have to cost time and money. Like, how? How did you, is it just years of doing it or did you have a mentor or?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (28:58)

    me.

    Yeah, that's what I primarily use.

    I had a couple mentors. like Jessica in the beginning. She would teach me stuff. Then this guy, Jeffrey Jones, who I met in Cali when I lived out in California. He was he's a fashion photographer. He has he had like a place in California, but he also had a place in Chinatown. And I was at my buddy's house when I was living out there. And it turns out Jeff is my buddy's wife's ex fiance. And it was like her birthday. And he's like, yo, this guy, Jeff's coming over. It's her ex fiance.

    I was like, yo, we're gonna like pound him kind of thing. Like, is that what this is? He's like, no, no, no, you'll get it when you see him. And when I met him, he's, well, my buddy Sean was like, yo, you're either gonna love him or hate him. And I was just like, one of these guys, you know, he's like, he's very California. And he pulls up in like a Honda element with a surfboard on top, you know, he's like, dude, where do I park? And I look at Sean, I'm like, I love this dude, you know, and then the ballet guy comes up and he's like, I ain't paying for you. And he like peels out and he goes like around the corner, parks on his own, shows up to

    this nice restaurant, cause it's like a birthday dinner, but he's wearing like a pink, like a button down, like what I'm wearing. But underneath it, you could see his wetsuit. He literally just got done surfing. Like his shirt is still wet. He's like wearing ripped jeans kind of thing, you know, but he was a, he's a great photographer and he taught me so much. But when we first met, he's like, yeah, everybody has a, everybody's a photographer these days. Like one of those. And I was just like, this guy's gonna fricking hate me kind of thing. But I moved back to New York.

    Scott (30:41)

    Yeah.

    He he he he.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (30:46)

    And then a month later, my boy Sean's wife calls me. He's like, yo, Jeff wants to bring you on a shoot. And I was like,

    Okay, what am I doing? This is like probably lighting or something. And at that point, I wanted to learn lighting, right? Because I already knew the camera and all that stuff, but lighting is a very, because you're capturing light, that's what photography is, you know? So I was so nervous because it was for a magazine shoot. We had stylists there, we had hair and makeup. The head of the magazine was there because it was a full on like fashion magazine shoot, you know? I threw up like four times on the way over. I was so nervous, you know? And those people,

    Scott (31:05)

    Yep.

    Fuck yeah, dude.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (31:25)

    that I worked with on that set. I am still friends with today. Me and Jeff are like great friends, you know? And I just did lighting that whole time. was like, dude, I don't know what I'm doing. So just, I'll hold the light and you just pull me wherever you want to go. don't care. Don't worry about hurting me. Just get the fricking shot That's all that matters. And then since then I've been like his assistant, you know? So I learned like a ton from that guy. Just assisting on fashion shoots, which I had like really no interest in. But he loved that about me because I had like no

    angles, know, trying to like.

    Scott (31:57)

    Yeah, you weren't trying

    to get in on his thing or like get into the work. You just want to learn the craft.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (31:58)

    Yeah, I wasn't trying to use him or anything like that.

    Yeah, and he's like, he's like a Jedi and like a MacGyver when it comes to photography, you know, like I see them do some crazy stuff with like flashlights pointing it directly into the lens to get like orbs and like gels on the lens itself and putting Vaseline on the lens. I'm like, dude, that's a $3,000 lens. Like, so what the stylist will buy it. I don't care. Like one of those things, you know, just like, I love this guy, you know, he's just like, doesn't care, but.

    Scott (32:22)

    Yeah

    Dave “Face” Boccio (32:27)

    Everything is for the shoot and that's like one of the biggest things I took out of him. And to this day, he's one of my closest friends. I love the dude so much. And he hates when I call him a mentor or I thank him or anything. He's just like shut up, dude, like one of those. It's all love though. Yeah.

    Scott (32:43)

    Yeah, but like you have to learn from someone in some way. I mean, it's,

    you know, we have the internet nowadays. I understand. like just hearing you and seeing your work, you have a level of knowledge that would be hard to just learn on your own as like an auto-diadatic. You needed, I imagine you needed some guidance to get to where you're at.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (33:00)

    Plus I study.

    To this day, there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not watching something or reading something about photography, other artists, whatever, whether it's street photography. I watch more street photography than band photography, believe it or not, because I feel like I don't want to steal anybody's style. I've been doing this path organically and I want to kind of keep it that way, you know, and just fall into different styles instead of just stealing Aaron's style or whatever.

    Scott (33:19)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (33:31)

    that kind of thing. It's bad enough I have a roommate that looks like me, you know, taking my style up, you know. Don't forget that's RBNX.net. Shameless plug time, shameless plug. Dot org. Their email is RBNX.com. They're optimized now.

    Scott (33:37)

    So, I mean, obviously we already mentioned that you like... No one does .net. Go away.

    .net. Is that where you have your AOL account too?

    It's a GeoCities

    site.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (33:57)

    Exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, just study a ton. Even. yeah.

    Scott (34:00)

    Oh. Right. Motherfucker, you interrupted me. Now don't know I gonna say no more. Oh! Okay.

    Here go. You're the guest.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (34:12)

    even like in my room, I have photographs taped to my wall. So like if I can't sleep, I'll just like shine my phone and study old photos that like I've taken on the streets or in bands and be like, all right, next one, I'm going to change this. I don't like how this one came out. So I'm going to like, I see this is a soft focus over here. I'm going to change that next time I shoot, you know, and find like all the errors in my shots. That's the most probably.

    Scott (34:37)

    Are they errors or are they just...

    Dave “Face” Boccio (34:39)

    not even errors, but just things I want to enhance.

    Scott (34:40)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (34:43)

    You know, because I want to see how far I could take it like skill wise, you know.

    Scott (34:46)

    Yeah.

    And speaking to your skills, like we had already mentioned, you're putting the frames around some of the social media pictures. What is it you're focusing on right now? Like if I said, okay, what have you been trying to improve, focus on, learn in the last week or two? Could you tell me what that is or is it really broad and changes on a daily basis because you're ADHD?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (35:09)

    It changes

    on a lot of thank you for the daily basis. It's usually like every five minutes, you know, because by the time I'm like, I'm going to type this in, wait, what was I going to study again? And then something else pops in and I go on different rabbit holes, you know, like I'll have like six different rabbit holes I'm going through, you know.

    What would be, actually right now, because I'm trying to get bigger shows, I want to shoot more productions. I got to shoot some bigger bands recently, like Dropkick Murphys, Bad Religion, The Slackers. Yeah, I'm so blessed for being able to do that. That made me really happy. I like the lighting. Even at Camp Punksylvania when it was like Scowl, Murphy's Law, the lighting was really good. So it was just like, oh wow,

    Scott (35:38)

    Okay.

    That's awesome.

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (36:00)

    this is a production. I want to see how I would do on like kind of like a Taylor Swift production, you know, like I don't know anything about her music or anything, but for that level, I would love to like get to test myself, you know.

    Scott (36:05)

    Yeah, okay.

    And

    where would you learn that? that something that's like, would that be another mentor thing? Or is there, are there resources for you to learn how to do large stadium photo production?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (36:19)

    including...

    I've been trying to meet as many people as I can that have like access to that stuff, but that's even hard because nobody wants to give that key away kind of thing. So like I cold, cold, cold, cold email, just like, Hey, I'm a photographer at a blah, blah, blah, you know, this I shoot for outside of magazine, you know, just to give me some kind of credentials, you know, and see where it goes, you know, and that's kind of how I got the, the drop kicks two times. I just like, who don't, you know, I wrote them, then I wrote the venue or I'll just write a venue.

    Scott (36:34)

    Sure.

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (36:55)

    So, and that's been work.

    Scott (36:56)

    Are you typically

    in those behind those barriers is like I know at Camp Punxsavania you had like the three minute rule or something like that. Yeah, the three song rule. So is that standard? Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (37:04)

    Yeah, the three song rule. Yeah. I love it. For the bigger shows. Yeah, yeah.

    Absolutely. I like that because then it's like, yo, game on you got it. You got to do your thing. You know, the first show I shot was dropkick at the Civic Center in Poughkeepsie. And I remember there was this huge security guard. They're like, yo, you got three songs. I'm like, great. This is a punk show. So three songs is like

    Five minutes at most, if you're lucky, you know.

    Scott (37:32)

    Yeah, six minutes if you're lucky if they talk between

    songs.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (37:36)

    Right, exactly. And that band has, I think, like six members, something like that, because you got the banjo, you got the accordion, all that stuff, you know. So I remember I got the guys on stage right and it was like the third song. So was like, shit, I still have to get those other guys. So I go running across the the photo pit and there was this big security guard. He was like a refrigerator. So as I'm running, I'm like, yo, suck it in just so I could pass them. And I got and I was able to get my shots like and then.

    Scott (37:40)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (38:06)

    the song ended he's like out and I was like okay and I landed every every member I got so it was pretty cool but it's like going to war

    Scott (38:12)

    That's awesome. Is

    that hard to get a whole band photo? I have to imagine it, because it's hard to get far enough back to get a whole band, right? You're getting one or two, maybe three members, but to get all six of them, you'd have to be much further back.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (38:20)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, you got to go back into the crowd.

    Yeah, because if you're behind that barrier, luckily for those shows, they gave me full access to the whole venue. So after the three songs, I was able to just walk around the Civic Center and just like get shots from the crowd. I went all the way up the bleachers and stuff and got that full band thing like, what's that song? I forget the song, but it was like from the departed something about losing a leg. You know that one Shipping Up to Boston or something like that. He actually had a

    Scott (38:31)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (38:57)

    there was a guy in the audience that was an amputee. So he's singing the song with the leg, the prosthetic leg in his hand. So I was able to get that shot from the crowd. So that was pretty cool. Instead of just like one guy with a prosthetic leg, you wouldn't be able to tell that story, you know, through the pictures. Like, what's this guy doing? You know, so I got the whole band playing and it was like the amputee guy, the guy, Ken holding the leg and then the rest of the band with all the lights and smoke. It was pretty cool shot.

    Scott (39:06)

    last tree jump.

    That is awesome.

    I know you get plenty of response and praise back from the smaller and regional bands, but did you hear back from Dropkick or Bad Religion or any of those bands after you sent photos?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (39:36)

    I did once with Dropkick, but it's weird. Like with the bigger bands, it's like you send them this stuff and it's pretty much just like, thanks. And you never hear from again. Maybe you'll see like a post or something that they'll do. Like I did see a couple of my shots in like a post that Dropkick made that had like multiple photographers in there. I was like, oh, I saw my shot in there. You know, like one of those things. So like to me, that's like their hip hat tip, you know, kind of thing. So. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    Scott (40:01)

    Did they often tag you or, I mean, I imagine they're on

    social media, but like, they tag everybody, I hope?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (40:07)

    Yeah, they credit and all that, absolutely. Yeah, they were very cool like that.

    Scott (40:11)

    That is

    one of the hardest things when I do albums. Fans can't tell me who the fuck took their pictures. And it irritates me because I'm like, I'd rather not use a picture that doesn't have a photo credit. Like this is a great picture, but can you find one with a photo credit or try and find out who it is? Like, you know what show it was? Like, there couldn't have been more than 50 people at your show. Come on, figure it out.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (40:14)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Right, exactly. Yeah, the credit's pretty important.

    Yeah, and if I don't get credit, I'll go on the post and be like, in the immortal words of Biggie, who shot ya? So I kind of do some comedy with it, know, just so I'm not just like, yo, you didn't credit me, one of those things, you know, just keep it kind of light.

    Scott (40:43)

    HAHAHAHA

    anyone ever take your stuff and make a flyer? Cause I think back to like in the nineties when I was making flyers at Kinko's, I mean, I pictures out of magazines, pictures off of postcards, you name it. I just took shit and made copies of it, made flyers. I think it took me some time, you know, to realize as I got older that using like photographs of

    Dave “Face” Boccio (41:02)

    Mm-hmm.

    Go ahead.

    Scott (41:21)

    I might use a photograph as something that's like totally not related to music, but even then, I never would credit it on a flyer, because I wasn't posting them on the internet either, like they were just being handed out. What are your thoughts on that? Has it ever happened? How do you feel?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (41:33)

    Yeah. If it's for

    a flyer, I don't care. You know, I get people that'll hand me like their cassettes or their CD and stuff. They're like, you'll like your pictures are inside. I'm like, sweet. And they'll credit me and all that stuff. I have been on flyers before that. I don't care. But it's not like they're making millions off of it or something like that. You know, people that know me will know that's my shot and all that and be like, I your shot at this. I don't really mind, you know, because like at the end of the day.

    Scott (41:53)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (42:02)

    We are kind of a tribe, you know, in this. So we're all trying to help each other out. So if it's like another band trying to do their thing, I don't mind it at all. You know.

    Scott (42:04)

    Yeah.

    Have you done any

    album covers? There's a lot of bands that do live photos on the album. Who have you done for album covers?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (42:15)

    Yeah.

    For album covers, this guy Nathan Moses, that was my favorite one. He's out of Paris, France. I went to college with him. He has a death metal album. And then during, during COVID, he was quarantined in the south of France and he hits me up. He's like, yo, I wrote this album. He does everything himself. He was in some like Nickelback kind of band in Paris, but he has like a metal background. He's one of the best guitarists I've ever met in my life. Like he's insane. Like the talent this guy has is crazy.

    Scott (42:28)

    Okay.

    Wow.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (42:51)

    It's bonkers, like I love this dude to death.

    Scott (42:49)

    Sorry, Kyle.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (42:55)

    He was just like, I'm quarantined. I'm away from my family. So I was just like, all right, give me five words of what you were feeling during recording this album and I'll get you a shot. And I did the same thing for his death metal album. So the five words and it was like loneliness, abandonment, all that stuff. So I shot I went out to Millbrook and I shot Bennett College before it was torn down. Like that's a historic place for me, my friends and all that. And that made the album.

    Scott (43:09)

    Yeah, dude.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (43:25)

    Like I sent it. He's like, that's exactly what I wanted because he was in kind of like a older place in the south of France and run down and it reminded him of where he was and all that. he was just it was like loneliness, abandonment, you know, just destruction and everything that he was going through during the writing of that album was in that photo for him, you know, and then his black metal album. I found like this abandoned church out of Beacon and it was kind of I was just like just tooling around like not. I wasn't even thinking of the

    Scott (43:31)

    Yeah.

    That's awesome.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (43:55)

    album really that much at that point. And I'm walking and the lighting was just perfect so I popped the fish eye on. I put it to f22 and because the sun was right by the steeple and made this like and I was able to make like a burst out of it. So it's something out of like kind of like out of the ninth gate. So it was like perfect for like a death metal black metal album you know and it worked. So those are my two major album covers.

    Scott (43:56)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    place.

    Do you travel with your camera at all times on the off chance that an Inspirato hits? Do you have different travel camera so you don't you're not carrying your best thing? You know, don't want to anyone like, Dave's always got an expensive camera in his trunk.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (44:26)

    Mm-hmm. I always have a camera.

    Yeah, I'm saving

    up for a Leica for my street stuff, you know, just like a rangefinder kind of thing. I sometimes I'll bring like a film camera for the street, you know, I have like some film range range finders like Canon. I a couple Canon range finders that I'll do that. But most of the times I'll just bring my normal rig camera. But I don't use the lenses that I use for shows. I use these very cheap Chinese lenses.

    Scott (44:38)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (45:03)

    100 % manual. So I have to do everything on the fly. You know, nothing nothing's automatic. But even when I shoot bands, everything's 100 % manual.

    Scott (45:06)

    Okay.

    Okay, and

    how does that give me a little bit of help understanding exactly what that means as someone who doesn't shoot pictures?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (45:22)

    Okay, so a lot of the new cameras have auto focus, right? Like I have some auto focus lenses. If I'm doing like a bigger show, I'll definitely use those to make sure I get sharpness all the time, all that. But when I'm shooting like, like, say I'm shooting rb and x majority of time, I'm just using a eight millimeter fisheye that I have to manually focus, I have to manually do the aperture, all that stuff, like nothing's computerized. You know, it's like, it's the analog version of a digital camera in a way.

    Scott (45:29)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Okay, excellent.

    And how do you feel about the idea that everything is digital nowadays? mean, there's a part of me that feels like everyone still like worships vinyl records and WORLDSUCKS recorded in an analog studio with reel to reel tape. Is there still an idea that like film is better than digital out there in the world? Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (45:55)

    Yeah.

    I was the best, I loved it.

    100%. Yeah,

    absolutely. But it's just so expensive. I shoot a lot. So it's just like, by the time everything's processed and scanned, it's time and money. just it's not feasible for me. I'd be more broke within like three days.

    Scott (46:24)

    No, I get it. Do

    you think other people that are like, do large scale people who make a lot of money, do they use actual film or do they still think it's not worth my money to do it?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (46:36)

    No, they're

    still, sometimes they do both. Like lot of street photographers are filmed. You know, they're using like Leica cameras with film and they do the processing themselves. They do the scanning themselves. I respect that totally. If I had the means to do that right now, I'd be doing that. Like that would be my life.

    Scott (46:39)

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    Yeah.

    Because

    then you would just develop the picture and if you wanted to digitize it you would just scan it in and do all the shit on Photoshop that you're doing anyway. But you're like basically skipping that whole organic dipping it in the water or whatever it is. You see how much knowledge I have of this?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (47:09)

    Right, I missed

    that. When I lived in Beacon, I had a dark room. So I got divorced and I was just like, all right, photography's it for me. No more dealing with this domesticated bullshit. I had no couches, I had no pots and pans. I got rid of everything. Anything comfortable.

    Scott (47:27)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (47:36)

    equaled laziness, right? Like I didn't even own sweatpants. Sweatpants equals comfort. Comfort equals laziness. Like that was my that was my mentality back then. My refrigerator was literally boxes of film and bottles of water. That was it. Water was the only food I had and saltine crackers. That was the only food I allowed in the house. I was just eating crackers. It was crazy, you know, like I had a mattress on the floor. That was it. And it was a two bedroom beautiful apartment. But I used it for photography.

    Scott (47:54)

    Cheers.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (48:06)

    and I just studied it every day and then I would have other photographers come up and I would kind of like sublet my apartment out as a photography studio because I had all the strobes, backdrops, like everything. I have all that stuff so we just worked out well and that would help pay rent.

    Scott (48:23)

    Total respect to that. Total respect. What was the... Okay? What you learned?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (48:25)

    And I learned. And I learned, you know, because like, would

    watch what the photographers are doing, and then that would, I was like, so that's how to do that. Okay, cool. Watch how they do the lighting and you know, so it helped out a lot.

    Scott (48:39)

    I feel like if I had taken that idea and watched all the drummers that I've played with over the years, so many, I probably could have learned so much, but I remember one of my old guitarists back like 30 years ago, like, you just need to at least three songs of every band and just sit there and think, you want to come away with one idea, one idea, guy, this is what you should do. And I was like, and I never forgot he suggested it, I've just never done it.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (48:47)

    Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm. That's it.

    Yeah, okay.

    Scott (49:07)

    Once I'd

    never done it. I'd never consistently done it.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (49:10)

    Okay, see I had that I had a moment actually this isn't even photography related this is guitar related So I played punk rock, you know always played like super heavy. I Saw a Black Flag at The Chance a few years like probably about like five to seven years ago And I was watching Greg Ginn and I'm like, holy shit. He plays like so gentle But he's in like one of the most fierce punk bands ever, you know

    And that moment when I saw that completely changed how I played guitar that night. Yeah, but just watching it.

    Scott (49:46)

    Fascinating and your band is

    you know another word talk about bands. We don't talk about there later It's a very unique band much like you had said that you really like experimental stuff. It's definitely a band that is defies Description that I could pinpoint

    Dave “Face” Boccio (49:56)

    Yeah.

    We're like avant-garde or free improv jazz punk rock.

    Scott (50:08)

    Yeah, it's kind of like, at

    RPM Fest I saw Flummox and I couldn't tell you what they sound like. I mean, the closest I would be is like, maybe they sound like Mr. Bungle or World Inferno Friendship Society, but they don't sound like either one of them, but just in the idea that they don't have a consistent, pin-able sound is the only part. That's the only thing that I compare them to because...

    Dave “Face” Boccio (50:13)

    Yeah.

    Right.

    Hahaha

    Scott (50:37)

    I'm waving my hands in the air going, man.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (50:39)

    Girl's interesting.

    when I, all right, so I went through like a breakup and it was affecting my photography, right? Cause I was like not in the mental space. So I was like, I'm going to teach myself guitar. had guitars. I've always been around guitars. I knew like three chords, you know? So I spent seven months just every day when I got home, turn my amp on, take my jacket off, get something to eat, play guitar until I either fell asleep or had to go to work.

    Scott (50:50)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (51:07)

    That was it. Every day for seven months. Yeah, I'm crazy person. yeah, you've hung out with me a few times. Just a few.

    Scott (51:09)

    That's some level of intensity, I'm a winner.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (51:19)

    So I brought what I wrote out of all that, which is just like a few riffs here and there to my buddies down in Rockaway in Brooklyn. They're like real musicians. I consider myself like the Anthony Kiedis of the band, you know, because like my bass player is like on the composer's list of Carnegie Hall. My saxophone player is like towards the world and all that stuff. You know, same with the drummer. It's like crazy stuff, you know? And I'm like, why am I even in this room? But we went to school together. I've recorded these guys like a billion

    Scott (51:36)

    Jesus.

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (51:48)

    million times, you know, like, I love these guys, you know. So my buddy John was just like, you know, we're a band now. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, this is just like, I just want to CD, let's just record something. He's like, no, no, no, no, we're a band. So was like, all right, so he calls the guys, everybody shows up. have like, I think it's like nine members in our band, you know, by the time we're done. And we're not a ska band, no, but we do have horns. Yeah. So.

    Scott (51:59)

    Yeah.

    Jesus, then you know the sky band.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (52:16)

    We recorded that whole album in two hours. We wrote it, recorded it just based off of the riffs that I had. The singer was literally looking at a bookshelf and just picking words out and just freestyling. Every lyric is just freestyle. And then we're just crazy people. we're like, oh, let's do this one song called Grateful Fish. We'll do a 20 minute breakdown song. So everybody moshes. It's like a jam band song, but hardcore. Let's just do something like that. So they mosh for 20 minutes and pass out, and we go home. That's our mentality.

    towards stupid stuff, you know? It's a bunch of dumbasses.

    Scott (52:51)

    Mosh jam.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (52:52)

    styling

    like this to be a much jam band, know, just like, okay. And then there was a song, warm fuzzy that we have. And Ayumi, she didn't know what like punk rock was or hardcore. So we had to explain to her what it was. And we're like, do you want to sing one of the songs? And she's like off the boat Japanese, you know, like, she's just, no, I want to scream. So like, all right, here's the mic doing your thing. And it's bonkers because it's nothing like hardcore or punk rock.

    Scott (53:16)

    Ha ha!

    Dave “Face” Boccio (53:22)

    It literally sounds like somebody's getting murdered over like these riffs and horns and all that stuff, you know, and I'm just like this is insane But we actually that song after we did our release backtrack a little bit when John gave me the CD to listen to like the final mix I was like don't release this. I hate it. This isn't what I thought, you know, I had in my head I was like, this is terrible, you know, and he's like, no, this is actually pretty good. I'm like do not release it I'm so mad because it

    was not in the direction that I had, not in that like, dude, there's like eight other people in the band. This is like a collaborative thing, you know? And that's when I like checked my ego. was like, yeah, release it. And then two weeks after the release, we get a letter from Mark Appleyard, the pro skater. And he's like, can we use your stuff in a skate video? And we're in like a professional skate video now.

    Scott (53:54)

    Sure.

    I can't hear you.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (54:14)

    It was crazy. They wanted to fly us out to San Diego for the premiere, but COVID happened. So we had like this Zoom premiere thing, which was, it was still cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So we have a second album coming out. Like the first album is Cuck Girrrl, Better Than the Eagles, because we all hate the Eagles. That's like one thing we all have in common. And our second album is going to be called, Not as Good as Queen.

    Scott (54:19)

    Dave “Face” Boccio (54:42)

    And I have right now I have written six songs. And yeah, I wrote about six songs for it that I that got approved by the band. And John has like about five. So we have like an album's worth. So in the next few months, we're going to be doing something. Yeah, that that's the funny thing. They all want to play it. I'm like, I don't play live. I'm a photographer. Who's going to Who's going to Who's going to shoot? You know, I just have this.

    Scott (54:43)

    Who is?

    Okay. And you let me know when you want to play a show.

    no, you want to play live. Yeah. You're going to play live. Aaron's

    going to take the photos.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (55:10)

    I know now I did now I got a guy.

    Scott (55:12)

    Yeah, yeah, because Aaron's

    got the same problem when he plays where he doesn't get to take photos of him, you know.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (55:17)

    Yeah, that just got me. Yeah, so that was like a thing with me. Like I had no want to play live. I just like, I like the creative process. I like the recording process and I'm good.

    Scott (55:19)

    Yeah, yeah, so.

    But have you done it before?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (55:33)

    No. The closest we did was we had a rehearsal at Trans Picos. We used to have a studio there. people would just come into the studio. And as we were rehearsing, we look out and there's like 15, 20 people. And they're all dancing and stuff. And we're like, oh, that's interesting. That's closest. That's what I told the guys I would do that. Yeah.

    Scott (55:53)

    feel like you need to do it at least once.

    You have to do it at least once because

    who knows, like with your level of intensity you might be like, that's it, we're all poor, I love this.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (56:06)

    Yeah,

    the Cuck Girrrl World Tour. We'll get out of We'll get out of here.

    Scott (56:09)

    Yes, I mean, think about who you are, right? Like your whole story

    is like, I dabbled in this and then I fell in love with it. I decided to do this and I just did this. Like, you know, you might realize like, I like being up here. I like this. Don't be scared of it.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (56:22)

    Yeah, that scares me. It does. It's like 24

    hours of the day I'm like studying photography, I'm gonna need like a 25th hour or something just to like do that now.

    Scott (56:34)

    There's

    a lot of time on tour to do nothing but just sit around.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (56:38)

    But that's what I'm listening to like other photographers and studying and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, you're gonna see firsthand while everybody's sleeping. I'm like, I'm doing my thing, you know? Yeah.

    Scott (56:44)

    Yeah, see that's what I'm saying. You can be on tour doing all that. I used to do all my college school work when I was on tour. Yeah? Yep. I mean that's how even

    now like I take school work with me to Camp Punksylvania and things like that. Like I'm always, I've always got school work to do. It's just, yeah, it's fine.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (57:00)

    Yeah, yeah,

    yeah, it's it's the meter keeps going, you know, you just got to keep going, going, going, because once you stop, it's harder to start again, you know, you know, I'm getting old.

    Scott (57:10)

    yeah, I struggle

    if it gets eight o'clock and I've stopped working, then I'm pretty much gonna be done because I can't restart. like, well, it's eight o'clock. I'm gonna lay down in bed and read and that means I'm at an hour and a half, I'm gonna be asleep. Whereas if I sit at my computer, like, could probably push through till midnight, no problem. But as soon as I get out of my chair and I stop and I do something, was like, I said I'm kind of done.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (57:16)

    Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Yeah.

    Yep. My settling down is literally like having like, say a photography or music thing on like YouTube on the TV or whatever. Me editing while like I have like one ear pod and listening to like say Miles Davis or something like that. And that's me just like winding down for the night. Yeah, but that's still like just only three things as opposed to like the 20 things that I got going on.

    Scott (57:39)

    because I work a lot, so you know.

    That's not winding down, that's still working.

    Alright.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (58:08)

    I'm like,

    I'm a freaking slacker.

    Scott (58:10)

    Has there

    ever been a show and you don't have to name bands? I think that was just like.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (58:13)

    VNX.

    Scott (58:17)

    That like, this is just a shit show. That like, the pictures weren't good, the vibe was terrible, you're like, fuck, why am I here taking pictures of this shit? Like this is, this is just a shit show.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (58:27)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, but I appreciate them because even though like the pictures might not be great, I'm still shooting and I'm still off the couch, right? Because the couch is laziness kind of thing, you know? So there's a ton of bands that I'm just like, Jesus Christ, how do they even, they're never gonna get out of their backyard, you know? It's like, my God.

    Scott (58:33)

    Okay.

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (58:56)

    You know, there's a there's been over the years, definitely a lot of that. But but I appreciate it because I'm still out, you know, because usually at those shows, I still know people. So it's like that's me being social and all that. Because like that being social is difficult for me, believe it or not. You know, after those shows, I need that time to just like wind down, like editing and focus on that. Recharge my batteries, all that stuff, you know, because it's the politics.

    Scott (59:19)

    Sure.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (59:26)

    is a lot like the shaking babies kissing hands and all that stuff you know it's just it's a lot yeah

    Scott (59:31)

    No, I understand always having to be on. It's like when

    I was a teacher, would tell like, it's like my teacher persona isn't fake, but it's front of stage Scott, back of stage Scott is who comes home and sits down and puts on his gym shorts and a raggedy t-shirt and pops open a beer and like, you know, relaxes with a comic book. Like it's not jumping around in a fancy suit, like screaming at the top his lungs trying to get your attention because he's trying to cram specifics down your throat.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (59:52)

    Yeah.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (1:00:00)

    You know, but

    yeah, I get it. Does the quality of the music affect your picture? Like I'm seeing you now, like I can see that there are bands out there that are visually appealing and maybe even have good stage presence, but their songs just bore the piss out of you. But are you able to still get like, and like there's a lot of that, but you still get good pictures out of it, right? Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:00:16)

    Oh, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because deep down, I am a music snob. Like, I'm very

    into music, you know, all kinds, like all over the world, you know, like a good example, I was playing with a band called Platypus. I sit in with them every once in a while. It's been a minute, but, you know, and this guy came in and...

    We wanted to enhance Platypus' sound, right? So the guy is a stylist and he's carrying around a sewing machine. So he hooked up some contact mics to it, put the mics into a mixer, the output into pedals into an amp, right? So he has the sewing machine pedal to speed everything up. So now you're getting a drone going through the mixer, which is going through a delay, a phaser, all that stuff. So it's just interesting.

    Scott (1:00:41)

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:01:07)

    all that shit. You know, just like always enhance and just experiment. Whether it's photos, music, whatever.

    Scott (1:01:08)

    That's awesome. Awesome.

    So do you have any plans, and I know we've talked about this a little bit, like publishing a book, like I mentioned in the intro, like Banned in DC is like a, you know, fairly, yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:01:23)

    I love that book. That's

    where I got my style from. That was the first book where I was just like, yo, because that was like my intro to Minor Threat, Dead Kennedy's Black Bad Brains. It's a great book. Yeah, I have a couple copies of it, actually, because I lost one. There's one on Facebook. they're called meta now or some shit, right? I actually

    Scott (1:01:33)

    Yeah. It's a great fucking book.

    Where are we gonna get to Facebook? Oh Jesus. We can't call Facebook that. Bye!

    Yeah, yeah, mean, yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:01:52)

    want it. I have a book for Outsider that I've been working on.

    Scott (1:01:56)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:01:57)

    I have

    a street book that I've been working on, but then I have an idea for all the bands that I've been working with over the years and call that like Only Bands instead of OnlyFans do like a spin on that, you know, and have like, and have that book. So that's something that is in the process. Like I have folders of pictures that I'm going to put in it. I just got to get it into the editing software to create the book. Yeah.

    Scott (1:02:09)

    Okay, I like it.

    Okay, and then bind it and you to look for a publisher

    or you to self publish.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:02:26)

    probably gonna self-publish. don't know any publishers like that for photo books or whatever, so I'll probably just do it on my own. Okay, yeah, yeah, I'm totally down with that, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm open to anything, yeah. But I'm just very DIY-ish, I was just doing myself, Like one of those things.

    Scott (1:02:34)

    Maybe we'll talk about it. gotta figure something out for that. Yeah, just saying. Your shit's great. Yeah.

    I was like, like, what are those like, all the different bands, you got like a live track from every band and put out a vinyl with it to go with it, like a bookend vinyl.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:02:59)

    Yeah

    Scott (1:03:02)

    I am.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:03:04)

    yeah. We got to talk off air, Mr. This needs to be done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

    Scott (1:03:08)

    yeah, things can be done, things can be done. what do

    you got going ahead? What's coming up for you in the near run? Any shows you're excited for?

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:03:19)

    excited for the RBNX tour. I am very excited for that. The Slackers are going to be coming to New York doing a like a borough tour so I'm going to be going through a couple of those. I'm excited for that. I should be able to shoot those too because I've been talking with Vic.

    Scott (1:03:30)

    Okay.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:03:39)

    Jay a little bit from the slap group. I got to shoot them on a cruise a couple weeks ago, the Rocks Off Cruise. That was pretty awesome. It was a great set, but I'm not a boat person. I'd be a land lover. my God. Like three minutes onto the boat, I'm like, Right, yeah, my God. That might have like straightened me out. Maybe, I don't know, but it was bad.

    Scott (1:03:40)

    Fuck yeah.

    Okay.

    At you don't drink.

    I mean, I don't see

    how you could drink and take photographs because you don't have time unless you like did shots because like your hands are constantly busy. Like I don't see how you could walk around holding a beverage and taking photographs.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:04:12)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Oh

    yeah, that would never happen. I would have to get a straw and just like suck it down real fast. And then I'm like, yeah. Plus I have like one drink. I need a nap, man. Like I'm not a good drinker. Like I used to be a very good drinker, but not no more. Yeah. Plus I'm also on the road all the time, you know? So it's just like, I don't need any of that drama, you know, getting pulled over or whatever. So.

    Scott (1:04:20)

    Yeah, you know, go three shots, hopefully, done and done.

    Yeah.

    Okay.

    No, get that. Respect to that. Respect to that.

    Trust me, I understand. That's why I told my kid, I was like, barely drank in my...

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:04:48)

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:04:51)

    my teens and early until I was like past 21. She's like, why? was like, I had four brothers. My dad's like, the worst thing you can do to this family is get pulled over after having a single beer. He was like, it's not even about being a DUI. It's that like you're underage and having any alcohol in you and we're all going to lose our insurance and there's seven of us in this family and you will screw us heavily. So I don't care if you're going to have a beer, that's fine. Don't you dare get behind the wheel of a car. I was like, even if you're sober, like you can get pulled over and your blood alcohol. He just drilled that into my head. was like, God,

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:05:06)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Scott (1:05:21)

    Got

    it. Don't do it.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:05:22)

    Yeah, yeah, if I lost my car I'd be done or lost a license or something like that like I Worked two hours away, you know, I live in Highland. You pretty much got to drive a mile to get a cup of coffee, you know I Still have a very city mentality, you know So it's just even though I do have like a mobile right there where I can't get coffee and a Duncan right like in the parking lot I'm like, my god, you got a drive

    Scott (1:05:27)

    Yeah. How would you get to shows? What would you do? Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    I feel

    you. It kills me how I have to drive 20 minutes to get a decent cup of coffee where I'm at right now. I mean, can get to a Stewart's in like 10 minutes, but it's fine. It's fine. I'm not from in this area, but it's fine. It's serviceable.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:05:58)

    Yes, this is great. That place is magic

    They

    have the best milkshakes, man. I don't usually do dairy, but they have milkshakes are fire. Yeah, yeah, drinking is just not my jam. Yeah, it's all about shooting. All the stuff I've done, shooting has gotten me the most excited, amped up, and just just.

    Scott (1:06:06)

    Yeah, they don't change are good. It's all good.

    That's all you.

    Good, I'm glad to hear that.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:06:31)

    just excited about life. Like, you know, it's just like, got my camera, where am I gonna go? You know, and it's opened so many doors. And I'm in. that's cool. Thank you.

    Scott (1:06:37)

    And it comes across in your work, right? Like

    that's the whole thing, right? Like I said, like I've seen a lot of photographers over the years and you are bar none, one of most impressive I've ever seen. So yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:06:52)

    shit. Thank you. Thank you. See,

    I still think I have like about 20 years to go to get to where I want to be. You know, like I

    Scott (1:06:59)

    That may be true, but you're

    already impressing me, which, know, whatever, whoever, who the fuck am I, but yeah. I'm Scott. Man.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:07:05)

    Scott. Good man.

    I appreciate that though. And I get a lot of good feedback, you know, and it's just like one of the coolest things over the years that's happened.

    was just meeting like Steve Messina and Richard Zoller and being like in their circle, you know, and like, I'm like, holy shit, I've been watching your work for years. And now like you're talking to me, we're joking around, you know, like, well hang out. It's cool stuff. You know, like, I'm just like, how did I get here? You know, I'm so humbled by it, you know, because these guys that I've been watching in the hardcore scene, as long as I can remember.

    Scott (1:07:22)

    Yeah.

    That's awesome.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:07:44)

    You know, it's nuts. Like I remember that after Covid, the lockdown lifted. was that show at Tompkins Square was like Mad Ball, Wisdom in Chains. It was a really great show. I was down there shooting Street and my buddy Chris Pollitz hit me up. He's like, Yo, you going to the show? I didn't even know about it. And I just had like my street photography rig on that day. And I was like, yeah, I'll go with you. It turned out to be like one of the greatest days because it's like there's Drew Stone, there's Steve Messina, there's Richard, all my like idols.

    Scott (1:07:55)

    Yes.

    Yeah.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:08:14)

    in the hardcore scene doing like the photography, the videography, all that stuff is right on stage. So while the bands are playing, I'm looking at the side of the stage seeing what they're doing. And like my buddy Chris is like cracking up over that. He's like, you don't even care about the bands. I'm like, I've seen them all million times. Who cares? You know, these guys, this is is this is important to me.

    Scott (1:08:34)

    That's

    the show for me.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:08:36)

    That's

    the show for me. Yeah, exactly. Like even even when I go to like concerts or whatever, I'm looking at what the sound guy's doing. You know, I'm looking at the gear and all that stuff. You know, it's just like, yeah, I've heard these songs already. That's cool that you do stage performance. Your production is great. You know, like it's like I'm I'm never like off the clock in a way, you know. And I don't mind it.

    Scott (1:08:44)

    Yeah.

    No, I get that. That's why you're so good at it. but I'm to wrap it up. We've hit a little bit over an hour, which is where I try and keep it at to keep everything exciting and fresh for everybody. Dave, absolute pleasure. I know we've tried to have this conversation many times on video as opposed to bringing it out at shows and love you, man. Like I love your work, love you as a person. Thank you for being on here.

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:09:03)

    Thank you. Thank you. I'm Okay.

    Yeah.

    I love you too.

    Dude, thank you so much. is an honor. It really is. I love hanging out with you at shows. You do such great things for the community, for our tribe, for everything. Hudson Valley. You're good stuff, dude. Good stuff. You're bringing people, exposing them to great music. Yeah, it's a cool thing. It's a cool thing.

    Scott (1:09:30)

    Perfect.

    Hmm.

    But thank you, buddy. Thank you,

    Thank you, sir. Thank you.

    And for those of you out there listening and watching, I'm going to put in the link description on all the streaming services in YouTube, the link to Dave's Instagram and obviously to his website with all his photos. Check some shit out. Give him some love. Love the photographer. Like we can't have punk rock and music without imagery. know, they go hand in hand and we need people like Dave out there. He was just giving it his all and you know, he's not charging us for it.

    be charging us for it but he's not so let's show him the love he deserves okay have a good night everybody

    Dave “Face” Boccio (1:10:28)

    Thank you guys, love you all.

  • DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, Episode 19 with Bobby Edge

    Scott (00:17)

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive. From the bookers and the sound techs to zine writers and venue operators, we're here to give credit where it's long overdue. I'm your host Scott Pasch founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk hardcore ska and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know how the work it takes to keep a scene going and today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out. This week on Scene Support, I sit down with Hudson Valley Punk mainstay Bobby Edge and that's his real name. I've always known Bobby as a musician but lately he's been carving out a whole other lane as a sound engineer recording more and more bands across the local scene and beyond. We talked about how he made that shift what he's learned from being on both sides of the mic and why DIY recording matters so much right now. Bobby's already worked with bands like Hell Beach, Soft Spot, General Grievance, People's Club, Money Sneakers, We're in Our 30s and plenty more and he's just getting started. Let's talk about building a DIY recording community, balancing life as both the musician and engineer, and what drives him that keeps shaping the sound of the Hudson Valley scene and beyond. How you doing, Bobby? I'm doing fine. I hope that was a decent introduction for all your awesomeness.

    Bobby Edge (01:24)

    Good, how are you doing? that was great. Thank you. really appreciate it. Super nice.

    Scott (01:31)

    You're welcome, sir, you're welcome. So yeah, so like I said, like I've known you as Bobby Edge, guitarist in various bands, singers in various bands, and I don't think I even realized that you were recording people. And like I did a show for Hell Beach and the new album's great. Was that your album?

    Bobby Edge (01:51)

    Thank you. So I tracked mostly all of it. I did the tracking and the editing. I didn't do the guitars or the keyboard. They did those themselves. The mixing was done by Reed Wolcott in LA.

    Scott (01:55)

    Wow!

    Bobby Edge (02:08)

    and actually mastered by a friend of mine, Dan Gouton, who's a very talented guy. And I think with all those things together, it turned out to be like a super killer record. Not to mention that the band is incredibly talented, very professional and awesome just to be around and to work with in that environment.

    Scott (02:29)

    I might just have to change this to the Hell Beach podcast because I was talking about them with Brent the other day from exponential booking because he was going on about them. they're from New Hampshire and you're a New Paltz or Newburgh

    Bobby Edge (02:32)

    What? Mm-hmm. Yes.

    Scott (02:41)

    So how did you connect with them? How did they say of all the engineers in the world, we're going to leave New Hampshire and head to Newburgh, New York, and we're going to record with Bobby Edge, who is not Straight Edge. He just has that as his actual last name. I'm just not going to, I'm not going to let that go.

    Bobby Edge (02:52)

    So. Yes, it's fine. So what happened was I heard their first EP and I was like drunk as hell and I was like

    Scott (03:03)

    Mm-hmm. That's not Straight Edge.

    Bobby Edge (03:08)

    I was like, oh my God, this sounds amazing. This is like these songs are so great. I would love to get these guys in. And the first tour I ever did was, man, maybe 10 or 11 years ago. The drummer of the other band that was on tour with us is Corey from Hell Beach. So I've known him since then. I first met him on that little like, I don't know, two week little stretch I did. His band went, he was in a band called OC45 They went and did like, the big old like two and a half month kind of you know USA thing so I heard their stuff and before they did this they were in a Cory and Jordan were in a band called Secret Spirit and I get to see them in Gainesville like I don't know why they broke up because they were fucking awesome too but

    Scott (03:42)

    I think I've seen them. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (03:59)

    I was just like drunk and I was like, man, you know what? Let me shoot my shot. And I hit up Corey and I was like, hey man, I'm starting to record bands at my friend's place. His name's John Niclerio. If you guys want to come, I would love to have you and do it. And he was like, my God, I love John Niclerio. My Chemical Romance is one of my favorite bands ever. And I was like, well, holy shit, man. Let's do it.

    Scott (04:27)

    Wow, okay. So you just took that shot in the dark, which is kind of brilliant way to do it. I remember when I reached out to Ann Beretta I was like, hey, I noticed you all just put out this digital album that's live, that never came out on vinyl. I'm waiting to go into my therapist's office to discuss my grief counseling. While I'm doing that, I figured I'd go ahead and see if I could feel better by sending you this email and see if you wanna put out a record. And now I've done two records by Ann Beretta plus Inquisition. I was like, look at that. You never know.

    Bobby Edge (04:32)

    You have to. Yeah. It's awesome. The worst anything anybody could ever say to you is no. So it's just, yeah.

    Scott (04:59)

    Yeah, and I've had some no to me so many times. I think that's like just the same way with like everything from being in a DIY van. You're booking a tour, you're in there, I was like, you just keep asking and eventually you're gonna find someone that's gonna say yes and let you do something.

    Bobby Edge (05:13)

    Somebody will let you play in their, like, if you run out of places, somebody will let you play in their, garage or their basement eventually, you know? And those shows, a lot of times, like, can end up being better than, like, a venue show.

    Scott (05:19)

    Yep, you keep finding it. absolutely. Okay so back to this recording. You did it at someone else's studio. Do you have a studio or do you always go to someone else's studio when you do tracking?

    Bobby Edge (05:32)

    Yes. So I have, I'm in my home studio right now. As you can tell, it's very neat and organized. There's not just like shit everywhere. And there's actually a nice, will this lean down? there's actually a nice hat on this. That's one of my banners. But hang on, I gotta pull this guitar back up. All right.

    Scott (05:38)

    Okay? Yes. Oop, oop. Yeah, no problem. My room is all mostly books from my doctoral program, so I'm just surrounded by books everywhere in my office.

    Bobby Edge (06:06)

    sure. It's probably like a bajillion dollars worth of education there, you're sitting there, yeah.

    Scott (06:10)

    Yeah, a lot of them I've checked out and I have to return eventually I keep hitting renew all over and over again. I feel like I've had some of these books for two semesters. I think I checked out a book today that I already have, because I didn't realize I already had it, because I have so many fucking books. I saw the cover and I was like, shit. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (06:21)

    Yeah. I mean that happens. But yeah, I do all my mixing and mastering from my home studio here. I can track pretty much vocals, guitar, whatever here. I don't really have a place to do drums yet. I'm trying to figure out how I can set it up. So whenever I do drums, we'll either do a hybrid of here and Nada Recording Studio, which is my friend John Niclerio on. And he's kind enough to let me rent the space.

    Scott (06:38)

    Okay. Okay. Yep.

    Bobby Edge (06:55)

    You know, it's nice, you know, I've gone from Like man, don't let that guy in here to like actually I've grown up and it feels you know, like I'm like I'm a professional but you know, listen, I still have fun You know Yeah, I think it's really cool and it was a big

    Scott (07:03)

    Hahaha! Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (07:21)

    push that John made to me, he's like, yeah, come bring them in. He's like, I would love to have people and you in there and.

    Scott (07:24)

    Yeah, Nada's great. I think they recorded like RBNX and recorded it in Nada, think Trouble Bound. like, Nada's really well known in this area. So.

    Bobby Edge (07:34)

    yeah, yeah, yeah, John is like a local legend, you know?

    Scott (07:39)

    Yeah. So like, I get it, you play guitar, you probably play bass, as every guitarist at least pretends to play bass, right?

    Bobby Edge (07:47)

    Well, you know what? I've put so much more time into playing bass now and touring on bass and everything. That is probably my main instrument now. Yeah. Well, thank you.

    Scott (07:55)

    That's fascinating, because I still think of you as a guitarist. Okay, so now I have to re-train myself. First of all, I have think of you as a sound engineer, and then I gotta make you a bass player? Dude, you're killing me, You're killing me.

    Bobby Edge (08:06)

    Well, listen, I can't stop. I have a problem. need to, you know, yeah.

    Scott (08:10)

    You have a problem. So here's my question that, right, like, I get it, you're in your home studio, you're learning how to track, you're even practicing with yourself, tracking guitar. Where did you learn to track the drums? Because as a drummer, I have had so many different people record me, both in studios and live and sound people. Like, where did you learn to, how did you figure out how to track drums? How did you get to practice? You know, just.

    Bobby Edge (08:19)

    Hmm. It's you know what yeah, that's just trial and error for the most part but That's why I like doing it Nada I know the room you know the kids always in the same spot And you know I'll still experiment when we're sitting down like I like to

    Scott (08:37)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (08:55)

    mostly mess with the kick and the snare, because those are the two most important elements. I like to make sure that we get a nice source recording of everything. I don't know if people will be upset about this, but sometimes I do use samples not to replace, but to just add an extra layer of sound and tone to things. I never want to strip away what is your

    Scott (09:00)

    Sure.

    Bobby Edge (09:25)

    real performance and like even even when it comes to editing I'll kind of unless it's like an egregious error I'm not gonna you know and and like I maybe I caught it in the editing process and we can't go back but I generally like to keep things tight and live sounding as best as I can for better or worse you know I also I just want to deliver exactly what the band is asking for

    Scott (09:49)

    Yeah. mean, to be fair, you know, I run a live record label and... I try not to overdub. Every now and then there's a band that's like, we really want this song to be on the album. But like here, just not like, it wasn't like I was getting bumped around in a pit where I messed up. Like it's just fucking, and these guys need to overdub that like 15 seconds. And I'm like, I was like, I was like, I hate it, but it does happen, you know, now and then minor amounts, but like I, I don't want to like turn it into some sort of overproduced schlock. It's supposed to be a live album. But at the same time, if, if I have to overdub,

    Bobby Edge (10:07)

    Yeah, yeah, like I had a frog in my throat or something, and they're like... Sure, absolutely.

    Scott (10:24)

    dub 15 seconds to make sure the best song that the band did live shows up on the record. I'm not gonna like be such a bastard about that.

    Bobby Edge (10:29)

    Yeah, yeah. I don't think there's anything so wrong with just touching things up a little bit. You don't need to go overboard. I think personally, as long as you have a good source recording of everything, a lot of stuff you can just bring out or take away with EQ and compression.

    Scott (10:37)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Well that's one of the reasons like...

    Bobby Edge (10:58)

    That's mostly what I use in my plugin chain and everything.

    Scott (11:01)

    Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of studio magic. That's one of the reasons like when bands will reach out to me to say they want me to do a live album, I was like, I really need to see you live. And they're like, why? was like, a lot of bands can sound good on a studio recording, but I need to see if you can actually perform. And I don't mean perform with like technical skill per se, but I mean perform with the sort of energy that I want to come across on an album. Yeah, I I wanted to be a little sloppy if possible, to be honest with you. So.

    Bobby Edge (11:17)

    right. Yeah. Yeah. Put Put on a show, yeah, absolutely. Sure, yeah. mean, every band is unique, you know? there's a lot to be said for a band that isn't technically as proficient as another one, but can just fucking whip the crowd up, you know? And get everybody nuts, that's half the gig, you know?

    Scott (11:55)

    It is half the gig. So do you ever do live sound as well? Like you ever work as a sound person? Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (12:00)

    yes, yeah, yeah, so I cut my teeth in a place called Seaside Tavern in Stamford, Connecticut so many years ago.

    Scott (12:13)

    Wow, okay.

    Bobby Edge (12:13)

    This is over, this is over like, this is like 13, 14 years ago. And it was a drive, but I had a friend who I went to college with who was working there and he was like, yo, does anybody want this gig? It pays like, I forget what, like a hundred and something dollars a night. All you gotta do is so can do this. And I was like, yeah, you know, I've been looking to get in there and.

    Scott (12:31)

    learn how to do this, yeah?

    Bobby Edge (12:32)

    Yeah, yeah, and you know I got to do a lot of cool shit there that I didn't think was gonna happen like They do sound for Murphy’s Law a couple times. That is really tough to do inside of a bar Most of it was just trying to make sure that the Everything stayed plugged in and at a certain time you just like give up and like you get past the Jägermeister and I'm like, I'm just part of the show now

    Scott (12:40)

    Fuck yeah. Yeah. Heh Yep.

    Bobby Edge (13:01)

    That's what those guys are like super nice and like fun to work with though. I like them and man, what's his name Thomas Pridgen? He was the drummer for The Mars Volta and like one of his groups came in and I got to do sound for their band and I've never seen a man smoke so much marijuana in my life and then get on stage and then just play these crazy poly rhythms all over the place and I was like, hey, do you need anything special on stage? He's like, nah, just a monitor with kick.

    Scott (13:12)

    Yes. Wow.

    Bobby Edge (13:30)

    I was like, damn, this is a certified pro. This guy's this guy's whew.

    Scott (13:32)

    Wait, how do you? mean, I don't ever need a monitor for my own kick, I hear that, but like that's all he needs. He doesn't need bass or vocals.

    Bobby Edge (13:40)

    Yeah, yeah. It's all he wanted. I think maybe like he's just, you know, he sings the song on the drums, basically, you know, that's the whole thing, you know. But from there, I got like other gigs. I used to play in a band called Jukebox Romantics and the guitarist Terry works at the Capitol Theatre. He got me a job doing sound at their little

    Scott (13:51)

    yeah. That's fucking rad. I've heard of them. Sorry, obviously.

    Bobby Edge (14:11)

    small theater next door called Garcia’s. did, well listen, I don't work there anymore so I'm gonna say it, like I did mostly Grateful Dead cover bands and I hated it. It sucked. Sometimes, you know, I would get a chance to do like a weekend and do like a cool band and shit, but like the main guy there, Mikey, who was super fucking awesome, who I love, was usually on those and...

    Scott (14:22)

    Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (14:36)

    taking care of it and now I occasionally have a gig at The Falcon in Marlboro. I shot one of my music videos there. Again, this was during the pandemic and I was just taking shots in the dark. I was like, hey man, can I record this music video in your venue? I have a whole big idea. And he was like, yeah, sure, it's cool. And then I came in and I was working the board, getting the sound for everybody in the monitors. He's like, oh, you know what you're doing here? I was like, oh yeah, I do sound. And he's like, oh yeah, if we ever need it.

    Scott (14:44)

    Okay.

    Bobby Edge (15:06)

    Anybody here can I can you give me your number? Yeah, I just did sound there for a Couple of weeks ago. I forget what his name was. It was artists that has three names I can never remember them, but it was like Glenn Allen Davis This this guy from New Orleans. What a fucking what a thing He's his voice was so loud that he would move away from the microphone and the band would Just do this thing you know, where they would bring down the dynamic. And he was just able to fill the whole place with his voice without even the microphone. And it was, oh man, this guy was killer. He had all the people doing a conga line, like outside and then back in. Oh yeah, I love it. I love doing live sound. It can be stressful. you know, earlier that gig, there's a B3 Hammond organ and there's like three different cables.

    Scott (15:43)

    Wow. That's awesome. jeez.

    Bobby Edge (16:04)

    that hooked the organ up to the rotary speaker and I'm like, which one is it? And I'm like trying, I'm figuring we would have to call like the guy who repairs it. And I'm like, holy shit, my God, I'm having a meltdown. We finally get it going, the show starts going and it's great. We started on time, everything was fine. But you know, that's why you showed up at four o'clock for a 730 gig as the sound guy and you know. I do appreciate that. being able to be there early, relax, have lunch, have like a little just time to relax and figure out what's going on.

    Scott (16:40)

    So when you did sound, what was like the weirdest instrument you've ever had to like mic? then you go, how am I gonna fucking mic this? Like an accordion or like a steel guitar? Like Negative Raxxx has that steel guitar. I've seen World/Inferno Friendship Society all the time and they would have accordions and all sorts of weird shit. Like how do you, how do I even fucking mic this?

    Bobby Edge (16:46)

    that's a good question. yeah. I f- I it's maybe not something that's so weird, but something that's so foreign to me is one time in Connecticut we had a guy with a pedal steel. And I was like, what the fuck do I do with this? Where do I mic this from? And he was just like, usually you would just mic from underneath and from the bottom and the top. And I was like, okay, I try that. And I was like mixing it. And you know, it took me a little while. But once I figured it out, I was like, okay, this makes sense here. Okay. You get a nice like blend going.

    Scott (17:08)

    Yes! Okay, okay, yes.

    Bobby Edge (17:29)

    I'm trying to think if there's anything really weird. There must have been something... Well, do you know Cry Havoc? They're a punk rock band from Connecticut and the first time I did sound for them, Johnny comes up to me, the singer, he's like, I have my own windscreen for the microphone.

    Scott (17:35)

    No, I do not.

    Bobby Edge (17:48)

    He's like, is that okay? I'm like, yeah, I don't know why I was like, why do need that? He's like, cause I bash it into my forehead and I was like, all right, man, you're cool, man. Just, you know, I was like, that's, that's actually very thoughtful because I think a lot of like other punk rock guys would be like, you know what? Fuck it.

    Scott (17:53)

    HA Yeah, I think that tends to be the case. I remember I was in a band in DC where controlled chaos may have been the best way to describe it. And we were a three piece and the mics were on the mic stands and it get knocked over. And I don't think we ever thought much about how much the mics are getting knocked over onto the ground and possibly trampled. And you know, I think there were times that we like did break it and had to pay for it. But it didn't exactly.

    Bobby Edge (18:26)

    Yeah.

    Scott (18:34)

    stop my front people from still behaving the same way the next show. It was just sort of, no.

    Bobby Edge (18:40)

    That's alright, you could afford to replace like a PG-28 with the switch on it or something like that. I think it's a PG-28.

    Scott (18:44)

    I don't know. I'm no good at knowing that. Every now and then I'll like I've had friends that are sound people like my god they're bashing my really good microphone I'm like maybe don't use the really good one at a hardcore show. Yeah they might not deserve it.

    Bobby Edge (18:53)

    Why don't you set for the punk rock bands? Like that's not a good idea. Yeah. Also, you don't, you don't need the best equipment to make, make band sound good. You know, I've, I've been, I've been recording it at home. It like started in my bedroom when I was like 14 and that's, I don't know. It's like over 20 years ago and I had really shitty.

    Scott (19:06)

    Okay.

    Bobby Edge (19:21)

    things that were just like budget that I get for Christmas or whatever, you know, and like it's all about figuring out how to make it work for you or in this situation. You know what I mean? Like, you don't, you don't need, as I talk into, The Neumann TLM 103, who I'm gonna be transparent, isn't working with the podcast program and I'm talking into my iMac, but I decided to keep it here because I just wanna show it off because I'm so, I'll be done paying it off at the end of 2026. So.

    Scott (19:53)

    That's amazing, And I need to buy a microphone. Yes, everybody, I know, I've heard the comments. I need a microphone. My voice is already weird enough without not having a decent microphone. I will get one. You know what, thank you, sir. But like, I put out a lot of records and all my money goes to that. And...

    Bobby Edge (20:03)

    Well, stop, I like your voice.

    Scott (20:11)

    You know, on a side note about my voice, I was actually at a bar in Daytona Beach with my dad right after the pandemic, at bike week, which is not exactly an uncrowded week, right? So I'm at a crowded bar and this guy walks over to me he's like, your name is Scott. You teach middle school in Orlando. And I was like, yeah.

    Bobby Edge (20:22)

    Yeah.

    Scott (20:31)

    Don't know you like we met before the pandemic on a cruise you were sitting at a bar reading a book I was like that sounds like me and you told me that George Washington's teeth came from enslaved people I was like, yeah, that's right. He's like, yeah, I've never forgotten you and I was like, how did you recognize me? Like I don't even look the same. He's like your voice it cuts through the fuck That's like alright, was like I guess like he sounds like my voice but I get I

    Bobby Edge (20:32)

    The student? Well, I don't- you have a distinct voice, I wouldn't say that it's like irritating or annoying or anything. Like-

    Scott (21:04)

    I've been told I'm not even allowed to sing back up in like my hardcore punk pants like I can't scream fuck properly like it cuts through and ruins the blend.

    Bobby Edge (21:14)

    Let's hear it. Come on in. We'll try it. We'll just do a song where all it is is a breakdown and you have to scream fuck. I do, yeah. I think everybody can to an extent. That's one thing that I like about...

    Scott (21:17)

    So I'll try it. I'll come in. You can see if you can make it any better. I don't just scream for it. And you can teach me to sing too because I know you take singing lessons so you can teach me to sing. So I'd love to be a singer but I can't sing.

    Bobby Edge (21:42)

    working in the studio is I like when it's time to track vocals. I have so much fun with this. You know, like we had a lot of fun with Hell Beach. We were tracking the vocals. They had just the melodies were already great. So it's like the harmony is just come right there. But then just like getting it like, maybe try this one and sing like, instead of, you know.

    Scott (21:45)

    Okay. Yes.

    Bobby Edge (22:09)

    and then like getting them to stack up and doing this whole, you know, I just, it's such a satisfying experience once you hear it. You hear two voices together and it just sounds like this.

    Scott (22:09)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you keep the vocalist purely natural? Do you put any sort of effects on them to like help enhance the sound? I'm sure it changes by band, even maybe by song or even by chorus or verse, right? It can change.

    Bobby Edge (22:29)

    I mean, Exactly as far as like pitch correction is concerned that's up to the band If they don't like I mean I personally like to use a little bit just if I just to Move things a little little here there But my two things that I like to use the most to like make things sound good. It's just reverb and delay

    Scott (22:39)

    Yep.

    Bobby Edge (23:05)

    I those two things in tandem just are great. I use the stock fucking Logic. I forget it's like Reverb design plugin, which is great. It has a bunch of presets. You just work off the preset and dial in from there. And then I have the Soundtoys Echo Boy. That's fucking awesome. That's great. It's like the best reverb. I don't work for, or it's the best Echo or delay plugin.

    Scott (23:18)

    Yep. Okay.

    Bobby Edge (23:35)

    I don't work for them but you Don't buy it unless it's on sale because this shit will go on sale, trust me. You'll save yourself a lot of money. Just keep your eye out, you know.

    Scott (23:37)

    You're gonna endorse them fully. Okay. So when you did live sound, did you also do those sort of things? Did you just leave it however the person sang it or did they ever ask for that sort of stuff on their vocals? Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (23:53)

    I mean, it always depends. If I hear... And I won't name names, but if I hear somebody singing, and I'm like, shit, this sounds bad. And there's no knob on live sound or anywhere to make that work. The best you can do is just hit it with the fucking karaoke delay or reverb and delay.

    Scott (24:02)

    Heh. Yes. Okay.

    Bobby Edge (24:20)

    And it kind of, yeah, it'll work. then, you know, they'll, but usually I work with people who are pretty good and they have an idea of what they're doing. I've worked with a band before at Garcia’s where they gave me a list of all the songs that they're playing, which I appreciate this, but then they gave me a list of all the effects that needed to be on the vocals. And then like what the tempo was so that the delay could be matching with like what they have in there.

    Scott (24:28)

    Okay. Yep. Okay.

    Bobby Edge (24:51)

    It's kind of a pain in the ass, but in the end, it makes everything sound like... And it's, you know what? To give them peace of mind and actually just do it. It gives me something to do rather than just stare at the ceiling while I listen to your terrible cover band. uh... That band wasn't bad. I'm not gonna tell you who they were, but I didn't like their attitudes. I think they changed their name anyway.

    Scott (24:53)

    Yeah. And that makes sense. Sure. Ha! Yeah. Yep, no I get that. Well there was a show I went to a couple months ago, won't name the band, won't name the venue, but I was super stoked to see them. I'd listened to their stuff. I was ready to go and pick up their vinyl and I still picked up their vinyl, but they went on stage and I don't know if the singer couldn't tell how much echo was on their vocals. Like maybe they just didn't notice, but it was so much echo. It was like my kids playing with like their toy karaoke machine, like singing Frozen.

    Bobby Edge (25:31)

    no. Yeah. I was like yeah.

    Scott (25:41)

    It was so bad and I was like, this is really disappointing. Like I had stayed all night just to watch them close out the show and I was like, wow. And like you could hear it when they would stop and do stage banter. I was like, come on, you have to hear this. Like, no, it was the whole fucking set. And I don't understand because it was...

    Bobby Edge (25:56)

    they didn't turn it off in between? man. Shit, I hope that wasn't me. I hope I had a pedal. I hope I was turning it off. Okay.

    Scott (26:03)

    And it was not you. would have told you after that. I would have been like, what the fuck dude, just fix this. It's not a venue that I go to often enough where I know anyone at. But I was like, well, that was just very, very disappointing. And I'm kind of really.

    Bobby Edge (26:17)

    Alright, I wanna put a pin in this, cause I want you to tell me after. If that's okay. Yeah, if that's cool.

    Scott (26:20)

    Okay, I'll tell you afterwards. But I'm really picky about effects on vocals. I was driving back with RPM Fest from Aaron from Put Over Photo and the Snorts, and he put on some band and I was like, ugh, there's a problem with garage bands. He's like, what? I was like, they put distortion on the vocals, and I was like, I hate it. I know it's like, what is the phrase like, getting close to the sound effect, like it's some sort of whatever. like, I hate it.

    Bobby Edge (26:43)

    It's just like a little bit of saturation.

    Scott (26:46)

    And he's like it wasn't even that much and you picked up on it. was like, yeah, and it wasn't the whole song It was just that part of the song and I went

    Bobby Edge (26:53)

    I think it works in very small doses. Like, yeah.

    Scott (26:59)

    Yep. It wasn't terrible on that song, but I know I hate it so much that I had to ask. Because I hear bands with that, all they, the full song's like, the riffs are so great, but why does your vocals have such, just sing it. I'd rather just hear your natural voice and all that distortion. Just stop.

    Bobby Edge (27:06)

    fair. Sure, Oh, I was watching this thing yesterday. I was just like laying in bed flipping through TikTok or whatever the hell I was looking at. And they were talking about Julian Casablancas' vocals on the first Strokes album. And he actually just sang it into like an old Peavey practice amp. And I was like, that's a pretty cool way to achieve that, you know, instead of like, all right, well, how are we going to get this? Well, just give them.

    Scott (27:23)

    Mm. Yeah. Okay.

    Bobby Edge (27:45)

    like a 15 watt practice amp that was made for high school. And just crank it through.

    Scott (27:50)

    And you never know it's it's like the first episode I record with Don Zientara from Inner Ear Studios and he told me that they got that effect for the beginning of “Stepping Stone” from putting the mic under like a crab bucket or shrimp bucket. I was like really I was like, what the fuck I was like Yeah, I was like what what even made you think to do that?

    Bobby Edge (28:03)

    Yes, yes, I remember this. Yes, that stuck with me. Yeah. Just fuck it, try it out, man. Like, you know, like if you had, like, I was doing a song for like one of my new records and my buddy Sean-Paul is recording it, but you know, John, who owns the studio, he's like, I have an idea, let's do this. I've been thinking about this. And we just took two garbage cans and we were in the live room just going like, ba-ba-ba.

    Scott (28:14)

    Yeah, fucking trash it.

    Bobby Edge (28:36)

    It didn't get used, sounded like trash. but I love, try it, fuck it. What are you gonna do? You're there, try it.

    Scott (28:37)

    Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm always constrained by price. So was like, we only have so much money, we need to do this. I don't think it was until the last band I was in, Call of the Dead, where we actually took our time in the studio to actually record over the course of several weeks and really take the time to make sure everything was good. I've done like 14 songs recorded, mixed and mastered by my buddy Rieter from Daycare Swindlers in DC and it sounded fine.

    Bobby Edge (28:58)

    Sure.

    Scott (29:10)

    But like songs were like one take, cause that's fine. It'll go next. You know, I mean that was kind of how that, that's what that band was anyway though. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (29:15)

    Hey, sometimes that first take is good though. Yeah, I like that. I like that. Like that's how I kind of did General Grievance was I like that like we were on the same page already. Like I know most of them because I grew up with them and we were like in the same skate crew together. And I was so excited to get to record them at Nada. But they were like, hey man, we just want this raw. We're going to play it live in the room. And like. I would do this thing. I'd be like, all right, I'm not going to save more than two takes at a time. Tell me which one you like better. And if you think you could do it again better, we'll go ahead. You know, I'm going to like, just like that. I like the idea of that definitive, like I'm going to make this decision now. You know, like that one did.

    Scott (29:55)

    Okay. So did you record them 100 % live, like all four of them? Or did you do like, often when I do it, it's like everyone does scratch tracks and it's the drums and everyone goes over top of it, but you did it all live?

    Bobby Edge (30:07)

    Yes. They came with the tunes. They set up in the live room. We had John just in the vocal booth. And I'd let them run through the song like maybe once or twice before. I would tell them I wasn't recording, but I was recording just in case.

    Scott (30:27)

    Yeah. As you should, just in case magic happened.

    Bobby Edge (30:33)

    Cause everybody gets through the red light syndrome, know, when the red light comes on it's like, I get it. Like my fucking brain will just stop as soon as I know that we're recording. And I'm like, what the hell is going on? But yeah, no, they were great. I had an awesome day with them. I think it came out really good. I was...

    Scott (30:36)

    yeah. Yep. Yep. Those are the songs that they put up on Spotify in the last couple of months, right? Yeah, they're all fucking great,

    Bobby Edge (30:55)

    Yeah, yeah. I was shooting to try to make it sound like this almost when I was mixing it, I like, should sound like Iggy Pop or like that kind of, I don't know, late 70s, early 80s. Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (31:07)

    Yeah, it has that definitely like, yeah, raw power sort of sound. And John's vocals are just what John's vocals sound like. I was like, what is vocals sounding like on that recording? I was like, the first time I heard him live at an outsider show, was like, all right. That dude's got a voice that is like very aggressive, but also uniquely so. It's not the standard hardcore bark.

    Bobby Edge (31:19)

    Yeah, yeah.

    Scott (31:33)

    It is gravel but like gravel like like I've never heard exactly before. It's like it's distinct. It doesn't sound like anyone else I can think of.

    Bobby Edge (31:34)

    Sure. I feel like you can pick out more of his like annunciation too just by the way that he sings.

    Scott (31:48)

    Well, I have to send you the live tracks, because Greg, who does all the sound at Holly's shows, The Outsider shows, so they just approved the rough mix, or the full mix, the final mix, that Josh from Danger Room Studios did, and now he's gonna go ahead and do the mastering. So that album will hopefully be out probably next year, just based on the schedule of other bands I already have in front of there, as we still to do album, blah, blah, blah, blah.

    Bobby Edge (31:53)

    yes, that's right, yes, yes. I want one. It's very cool. Yeah.

    Scott (32:18)

    But yeah, yeah, and I don't know if they're doing a full live album, because their songs are so fucking short, or they might decide to do like my live and dead octumers live on side A and studio on side B. So it's possible that your songs you recorded get on the side B side. I have no idea what they're doing. I'm sure they told me, but I can't keep track of that shit. Yeah, I have a master list of information, but to recall off the top of my head,

    Bobby Edge (32:24)

    Yeah, yeah. That'd be awesome. I would love that. I have no idea what the fuck's going on at any point in time. Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (32:47)

    I don't have that ability anymore. I'm juggling too many things at one time. Everything's on a calendar. Everything is on a form. I don't have instant recall. No, it's not out there. But you know, Jesus, everything's coming so fast, It's coming so fast. I wish.

    Bobby Edge (32:55)

    Who? Yeah, no. I don't even know what tomorrow is. Is it December? What could it be? I don't know. Is it Christmas? Is it St. Patty's Day again already? Yeah, dude, I don't know. I don't know, look at my eyes. You can see I'm so fucking tired all the time. You know?

    Scott (33:13)

    Dude, I was dragging ass driving home from Albany. I had to stop and get a four shot iced Americano and then I got another one taking my kid out to buy clothes for school. So I've already had eight shots of espresso in the last five hours, which is why I'm drinking a beer now. Cause I'm like, okay, I'm so wired. How am I going to go to sleep? I was like, I am sure there's something a doctor would say is very medically wrong. Where like pumping myself full of eight shots and then drinking two IPAs to bring me down.

    Bobby Edge (33:30)

    Just. you Yeah, yeah, I don't know. think that's, there's worse things you could do, you know?

    Scott (33:44)

    I suppose, I suppose. I was like, ugh. So, you mentioned like the red light. Like when I do the live recordings, bands freak out all the time. Which is why I always tell them it's free. Be like, oh you should charge for the live recordings. I'm like, well if I did, then there's the added pressure of money. If I just tell them this recorded live and it's deleted if they don't like it, and they don't even have to, and the songs are theirs even if they don't work with me to use as they want, it takes all the pressure away. Cause I feel that pressure.

    Bobby Edge (33:53)

    Mm. Yeah. Definitely. Very cool. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. I hate I I've been on stage a lot where they were recording and I was like, I know this is going bad. This is going bad.

    Scott (34:13)

    But I'm behind, when I'm on the drum kit, like I feel it. I hate it. I hate recording. Mm-hmm. Yep. And like, you know, like my issue is that, you know, the way we've always done it, like doing the drums first is like, everyone's just waiting for me. They're doing their tracks and no one's, and they're all just dicking around, smoking weed, drinking, and because they're not doing their tracks until tomorrow. And everyone's sitting there watching like, Scott, you missed that. Scott, I'm like.

    Bobby Edge (34:47)

    You know what? Send them the fuck home. Let the en- Let the engineer decide that shit. Send them the fuck home. Say, listen guys. Just fucking let him- let him do his job. Yeah.

    Scott (34:58)

    It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. So do you do all digital or do you do any analog recording?

    Bobby Edge (35:04)

    Man, I mean, so we're not recording a tape or anything, but when I record at Nada there's like a ton of outboard analog stuff. He's got a bunch of fucking things, I don't even know what the fuck they are.

    Scott (35:09)

    Okay.

    Bobby Edge (35:22)

    He's got a bunch of the API launch boxes, like preamps and stuff. So the preamps are all going into different places and routed in different ways and everything. So that's where your analog stuff is. But it's all getting recorded into Pro Tools. So, but you can kind of, I don't know, you fool around with it. You know, you've like, I, in here, like, I know nobody can see it, but I'm pointing over at it. have this pro VLA2, tube, compressor and it's, it's supposed to be like, an affordable version of like an LA2A. If you know what that is, like a compressor from the sixties.

    Scott (35:56)

    No. I have no idea. I'm saying yup as if I know, but I have no idea because I play drums.

    Bobby Edge (36:02)

    I this thing, I think, I believe that the LA-2A was invented by like a radio host, I forget whom, because like they couldn't, the input signal from the microphone wasn't enough. So they needed something to like drive it further without like making it completely distorted. So they like, know, it's cool. I love it. It takes the transients right off the top of anything that's like too sharp sticking out, of compresses down your vocals really nice. I'm sorry, I have a Focusrite ISA-1 that I love as my preamp. But you know, like these things are analog, but I run them into something digital and then into a computer. So, know, it's like kind of like a hybrid. I like to mix with outboard gear and plugins and see what it is. And to be honest with you, if I were to do something 100 % analog, I'd be like way in over my head.

    Scott (36:53)

    Okay.

    Bobby Edge (37:04)

    I'd be fucked if we were if we were supposed to sit there cut tape. I'd be fucked I'd be like listen after the first session. I'd be like yeah, I can't do this I have no idea what the hell is going on but

    Scott (37:08)

    Ha ha! Yeah, my first recording 92 93 we went home with like the reel to reel tape afterwards

    Bobby Edge (37:22)

    Wait, the actual... man, that's wild.

    Scott (37:25)

    Yeah, like yeah, it's still in my closet somewhere. Like I kept it. I don't know how I was when I got to keep it. Like I'm just the asshole drummer.

    Bobby Edge (37:34)

    That must have been, was that before the ADAT tapes? Like they had like the tapes to record on? with the... Okay.

    Scott (37:38)

    I think we also got it on ADAT, or it might have been the second time we went back. It was Neptune Studios in somewhere, Quantico, Virginia, or something like that. like, wait, wait, it was so long ago. And, you know, that was back when I didn't know that you could double track guitars, and that there was all sorts of things you could do. And I think we did our first tape and did it Master because we really it was recording in Master because we're 16. You know, we we we put it out on tape by ourselves and...

    Bobby Edge (37:51)

    sure. Yeah, yeah, that's...

    Scott (38:08)

    You know, whatever. We did it. Fuck you, the rest of you weren't doing shit. You were just in high school like watching TV and I paid to go to recording studio and I recorded songs, I wrote it. Yeah, I could have recorded them better but fuck you, I still did it. Yeah, but WORLDSUCKS was recording at Basement Floods recently in like Catskill and they were doing it to analog tape. Like I saw the tape and everything and I...

    Bobby Edge (38:13)

    Yeah. Yeah, no, you get the experience, you know? That's what's important. that'd be me so stressed.

    Scott (38:37)

    I don't think you had to cut the tape, so I don't know, maybe there's some midway point of doing it.

    Bobby Edge (38:41)

    You see, this is where my knowledge is limited, you know, like, I've only, you know, my entry point was a program called Pro Tracks made by Cakewalk that was a knockoff of Pro Tools that I pirated. I mean, I don't, yeah, no, fuck it, steal that shit. They make too much money. I'm not gonna try to act like I'm fucking better than that.

    Scott (38:51)

    Okay. I get it. get it. Yeah, Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that my guitarist, one of my old bands, downloaded it from an FTP site or something like that, Pro Tools for free. It's fine. Yeah. It was like 25 years ago. So.

    Bobby Edge (39:13)

    Yeah, you used to be able to do it's like more difficult now like Pro Tools has a subscription service Yeah, yeah now those were the I mean Pro Tools has a Like standalone that you can just buy once. I think you're allowed to update it like three or four times or until It's all a con I and all ivory DAW that you're gonna use is the same the tools are just arranged differently and some have different

    Scott (39:27)

    Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I mean...

    Bobby Edge (39:42)

    different ones and they're a little different here there. I prefer logic that's my favorite.

    Scott (39:46)

    I've never used that. used, when I used it, and I say used, is if I know what the fuck I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing. But when I was a teacher, I would make my kids write their own parody songs, and we would record them using Audacity and a microphone on my laptop. And the kids would just write their own lyrics based, take a song, download the karaoke track, and then they would write a parody song about whatever fucking topic we were learning about, Revolutionary War. And Audacity was fine. It was exactly what I needed. It was free. I used Reaper recently.

    Bobby Edge (40:04)

    Yeah. Well, that's perfect. That's great. That's great for school, you know? Yeah.

    Scott (40:16)

    I don't ever use Reaper.

    Bobby Edge (40:19)

    I have it on all my computers. I don't know how to fucking use it. I can't figure it out.

    Scott (40:24)

    I I had to teach myself like I flew down to Florida recorded Florida Underground Fest hooked my lap up laptop It was like a 64 channel board or whatever and got it in there and I was like, okay How do I record all these tracks onto my laptop? You know and then save it to an external drive and I saved it was projects and then I got almost like well how do I export this now? like I had no idea what I was doing and

    Bobby Edge (40:31)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I do not know how to use fucking Reaper. It's... yeah.

    Scott (40:51)

    I used it once, just once. And so, I didn't pay for it, because you can use it once without paying. was like, if I was using it on a daily basis, I would buy it. Yes, I think that's true, right? They trust you, like, we're please pay you if you're going to, but we trust you, like, be honest. And I'm like, if I was gonna use it more than the one time I did, or the one weekend, but like, I'm not using it, I haven't touched it since last December. Yes.

    Bobby Edge (40:57)

    You can use as much as you want without paying for it. Yeah, yeah, it's like shareware. It's very cool. It's hard. It's like rock. To me, it's rocket science compared to like other things like logic or Pro Tools.

    Scott (41:23)

    It all seems great. Like I tried to record once using GarageBand. Like when I had my electronic kit that I got during COVID, my wife got me an electronic kit. And it's just all like, you need to get a MIDI. I was like, I don't even know what a MIDI is. I play drums. know, I was at RPM Fest and people were selling these things and I was like, and it said carved wood. was like, what is that? was like, I know we give away carved wood when you buy one of these pedals. like, I thought those were paperweights. I play drums.

    Bobby Edge (41:26)

    That works too. Yeah.

    Scott (41:53)

    I don't know what that shit is and I don't want to know about it. You know? So. I'm not a ludite except when it comes to musical instruments because I play drums.

    Bobby Edge (41:56)

    Yeah, fair, that's fair. Hey, that's fair. I'm friends with a lot of drummers. I am a drummer myself, but I'm very out of practice. I'm sorry. I just need to be these things sometimes. I am out of practice, though. I will say that. I could rehearse more.

    Scott (42:05)

    Yeah. So, you're not allowed to be that too. Stop it. So like, no, I get that. So what is your goal? Like I know you have a real full time job. I know you play amazing music. Like where do you want to take this recording engineer to? Like do you want to have your own studio? Like an actual one outside of your home? Not that one in your home is not actual. Don Zientar records in his home and it's fucking actual. What is your thought? Like what's the future hold for you, you think?

    Bobby Edge (42:31)

    Well, thank you. I yeah, no, no, no, I understand. I mean, I'm cool with keeping on doing, you know, bigger projects at Nada, mixing stuff and mastering stuff here. I just like, you know, that I get to meet people and like hang out with them. you know, sometimes we just like really click and it's cool to just like...

    Scott (42:49)

    Okay. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (43:05)

    I don't know, you see somebody who comes in with their music and they have like a vision. And it's like, you get to be like part of, if it were a painting, you get to help be part of what helps put that on the canvas. You know, and then just knowing that you assisted in that and you see the final one, you're like, my God, you know, like especially with that Hell Beach record and stuff.

    Scott (43:23)

    Sir, sir?

    Bobby Edge (43:35)

    I don't know, the most rewarding part to me is seeing everybody happy at the end, making connections with new people and just like, I don't know, I just, that's why I love going to the bar. I like meeting new people, but this is a more productive way of that.

    Scott (43:46)

    Yeah. But I'm on the same line as that, right? I love doing shows. I love meeting new people, whether I'm in a band or a promoter. But I also love going to a bar. I love the people that I meet there. It's funny, I moved here like three years ago. And it took me about a year to start doing shows. And I'm like, how'd you figure out where to do shows? I'm like, I went to bars. I hung out. I met the servers. I talked to the people. And I just...

    Bobby Edge (44:19)

    Yeah.

    Scott (44:24)

    Generally talk. I mean it's hard to learn new things if you don't go places and meet people.

    Bobby Edge (44:31)

    I'll add to that, that you you have to sometimes get out of a place where you feel comfortable. And you know, once you do it enough, these places will start feeling comfortable. you can, yeah, no, it's very important to get out of your little shell sometimes. If you can, I'm not saying that, you know, everybody can, I know everybody's different, but if you can get to that point where...

    Scott (44:37)

    Yes. Yes. Yeah. You and I are fairly gregarious. Neither one of us are shy or recalcitrant. We're location people that talk and we're happy and we're like, yeah! We're not easily offended. We're like, yeah, let's have a good time.

    Bobby Edge (44:59)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Exactly. That's my favorite thing to do and I think that's the most important thing to take away from doing anything like this is that come record with me and let's have a good time. And I think that when we're having a session and we're all having fun, it's gonna come out a lot better than if everybody's in a fucking piss poor, like, I don't wanna do that. If everybody's there ready to have fun, it's always gonna be better.

    Scott (45:25)

    Yeah? Yep. Yes.

    Bobby Edge (45:40)

    You know, I'm not saying like get fucking blackout drunk because I will sit and will tell you to go home. I'll be like, all right, you're fucking done. Or just like, or go lay down and we'll bring you like some Tums and like a glass of milk or something. I like, I like to think I'm a nice guy. I don't know.

    Scott (45:43)

    No, no. Yes. But like. The last time I was in the studio, you ever heard of Locked in the Basement? It's in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. It's this dude, Jimmy, James Wolfe. Great fucking dude. He, out of the kindness of his heart, he brings bands down and records them in his basement for 15 minutes. He does two bands and then he puts out a tape. He mixes it for free, he masters it for free, gives them the tapes for free. So he did a series of 10.

    Bobby Edge (46:02)

    think so. Okay.

    Scott (46:22)

    So 20 bands total and I released one song from each side. So 20 songs on a vinyl last year. And then he brought, when I was in Leave It Behind up here in New Paltz, we went down with RBNX and I finally met him in person and we hung out and I hung out with RBNX. I love those dudes and I love the members of my band and we hung out. We just chilled. It was just such a great experience. I wasn't even stressed because it's only one take. You have no choice. You play 15 minutes and the tape runs out and you're done. And that's it.

    Bobby Edge (46:50)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (46:52)

    and but just such a great guy and he's like I do this because I can't give people shows in my area so this is how I can give back to my community that I love so much and when I have bands like you and RBNX that come down are just great people and we hang out and you feed my dog and we have some beers and yada yada it's like it makes it all worthwhile and I was like what a great fucking dude just just saying like it's the recordings

    Bobby Edge (47:15)

    Yeah. Yeah, it's all about that feeling you get from it, doing it. Yeah, absolutely.

    Scott (47:21)

    Yeah, and the love I think comes across in the recordings. The sound is raw, but it's raw love. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just raw love and it's just a great thing to do. Like, what an amazing thing to do for people just because you love your scene.

    Bobby Edge (47:27)

    Fuck yeah. That's cool though, man. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and you know what? You have to. Because you'll... Nobody's making money. So, and if you see somebody that's trying to do it, that's probably emo night with some schmucko from fucking... And I don't care. I'm gonna say it, right?

    Scott (47:43)

    Yeah. No! No! Yep. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (48:01)

    I don't care. I've had one beer and I'm ready to get steered. The Emo nites, it's hilarious to me. I'm sorry, I gotta go off on this thing. The Emo nites are hilarious. It's like all the people who used to make fun of us in high school for the music we listened to and the way we dressed go in to see a guy who used to make fun of us for the music we listened to and the way we dressed playing that music in a giant bar with like a $20 cover. It's like...

    Scott (48:02)

    Yeah Yeah, no, I understand. I understand, like...

    Bobby Edge (48:30)

    Well, you know, know, bands still play and they probably play in the venue that is hosting this emo night as well. But. Don't get me started, it'll turn to capitalism and they like the package nostalgia. I will go deep. I can't. I go down a rabbit hole. Yeah.

    Scott (48:36)

    Yes. Yep, now it like, it's... Look, I'm a DC ethic guy, right? Like, people ask me why I do what I do and I was like, I'm a history teacher and I'm from the DC area, like, Dischord, I want to document the scene. That's what I do sometimes. I do bands that have never left their hometown. Like, I don't know if General Grievance is ever gonna leave New York. I know they've played New York City a couple times, but like, for all I know, that's all they're ever gonna do. I've known bands that have Hopefully...

    Bobby Edge (49:09)

    I think, yeah, I don't, you know, yeah, yeah, I, you know, I don't think that's, that's in the, you know, yeah.

    Scott (49:12)

    But I don't care is what I'm trying to say. They might tour to California, so fucking great. But I put out bands by people I like, music I like, because I want to help people out and just do those great things. And I don't make money out of it. Each record pays for the next. I'm not rolling, it's like, you put out so many records, you must make a lot of money. I was like, no, no, no, that's not how it works.

    Bobby Edge (49:31)

    No. Hey, you know how much it cost to put out a record? Come here, sit down.

    Scott (49:36)

    Yeah, yeah. This is like my hobby. Like I looked at it like, how much money did I lose last year? I was like, well if I was golfing all the time, I probably would have spent as much money golfing, right, or skiing or something like that. You know, you're just looking at it like, you know.

    Bobby Edge (49:49)

    All right, yeah.

    Scott (49:52)

    I mean I remember going back when I was like 16 or 17 and I do like my first run my dad's like did you make any money playing you know Philly Boston New York City coming home to DC I was like no he's never was it worth it then I was like well I mean I played with bands I would have paid to go see I got to play myself I met super dope ass people I got gas money every night you went skiing for three days how much money did you make that like why why why is that sort of experience valid but like if music doesn't make money it's not valid

    Bobby Edge (50:15)

    Yeah. I don't know, you know, it's like to add to that, you know, like you'll meet people who will be your friends for life. Sometimes you'll have stories that are absolutely insane. Like I have enough stories to fill like a 800 page book.

    Scott (50:26)

    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    Bobby Edge (50:39)

    for doing this for just a little bit over a decade. And it's so much fun. And when you talk to somebody else who's been through those kinds of things, you can commiserate on all this like wild fucking shit, you know? And it's cool, man. It's cool to like live life as like a wild man.

    Scott (50:49)

    Yes. And they're there for you whenever you need it. Like I don't know if you know Gary from Soji in Philadelphia. He's one of like a half dozen singers of Common Enemy. I hadn't talked to him in probably eight years. And then when Call in Dead was going on tour from Florida and needed a show in the Pennsylvania area, I was like, hey Gary, long time no chat. He's like Scott, my brother, what can I do for you? And he hooked me up because that's what you do. It's we don't have to talk every day.

    Bobby Edge (51:00)

    No. Hell yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (51:22)

    But the minute you come back into my sphere and you need me, I'll be there for you the same way you'll be there for me. I can't talk to everybody I've met over the course of 25, 30 years of doing this. But when I talk to you, it's sincere, and I mean it, and it has more value than money.

    Bobby Edge (51:27)

    Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, you can't you can't put a dollar price on that kind of stuff. No because You know, you could live your life toiling away somewhere and say look at all this cash I Amounted yeah, well Okay Was it fun? No. Well, do you have any story? Well, no, like it doesn't it doesn't mean anything, you know,

    Scott (51:40)

    Bye. You can't, you can't. you Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (52:04)

    The human experience, think, is what's been the most important. And we live, I'm not going to harp on it, in a capitalist society that values wealth over a lot of everything else. And it's not what's important. Sure, you have to be.

    Scott (52:21)

    Sure, but like, you need money to appoint. you're charging people for your time, because your time is worth it, right? You are charging people.

    Bobby Edge (52:32)

    Yes. But I'll work with whatever. Because I want to work with people so bad, I'm like, you tell me what your budget is and let's work something out. Because I just want to be paid for my time, but also be able to be accessible to people.

    Scott (52:34)

    I'm assuming it's reasonable just because who you are. And that's and that's very That's like Phil from RBNX right? Like he'll do sound for me for free. He's recorded bands for me for free and done mixing and mastering. But he also knows, he's like, I can call out to Scott and say, Scott, can you help RBNX find shows for this three day weekend? And I'll do that. And I'll help him out.

    Bobby Edge (53:04)

    I love it. Well, that's also something else. It's like trades, you know? Like my friend Brad, I have a new record that's coming out December 5th. It's called Dirt Handsome Volume 1. I'm gonna push it. I don't care. December 5th, get ready. That's the release date. But he helped me with this record and didn't ask for anything in return.

    Scott (53:19)

    Yeah. Okay. HAHAHAHA

    Bobby Edge (53:42)

    And he hit me the one day, he's like, I'm trying to do my own album with all this stuff. He's like, can you help me mix it? And I was like, what? I was like, man, let me just mix it for you. I was like, you know, he wanted to do it himself. And I sent him a mix that I made. But I have a lot of plugins that he doesn't have. And when I sent him the project back in Logic, he's like, yeah, this sounds like ass. It doesn't sound like your mix. I was like, you know.

    Scott (53:53)

    Yeah?

    Bobby Edge (54:09)

    It's not the plugins that I use you can probably find some that are comparable but I told him I was like listen I'd be more than happy to do this for you even you helped me out, you know and and Come and and be my guy and Shout out to him drum boy advance. I'm having fun working on that stuff That's recorded by Shawn the drums are all recorded by Sean-Paul at

    Scott (54:25)

    Yeah!

    Bobby Edge (54:37)

    Nada Recording Studio.

    Scott (54:39)

    And Sean-Paul's in, isn't Sean-Paul in the band? he in Nightmares for a Week? Or is he in, yeah. As he did a show for more, it's a great fucking band.

    Bobby Edge (54:43)

    Yeah, yeah, that's, I love them. I love him so much. He's a good friend of mine, Sean-Paul. he's very funny. We always have like the best, like whenever I'm in it, I like to record it, just because I like to hang out with these guys. And I like to record bands there because, you know.

    Scott (54:54)

    Really nice dude. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (55:08)

    It's cool when those guys pop in and we're recording and people are like, oh look, it's John. I'm like, get this goofy fucking guy out of here. I like to play it up. Like every time John enters the studio, like, oh fuck, here he is. We can't have fun now. But it's incredibly fun. like, just doing this, like I get to meet so many cool people who I never would have had any.

    Scott (55:15)

    HAHAHAHA There he is. Yeah.

    Bobby Edge (55:37)

    with otherwise you know and I love every angle of what we do here you know so this is just another one that is very important to me. And, you know, as I ramble.

    Scott (55:55)

    so excited. I don't know how I didn't know this side of what you did right. It's not like we never talk but like somehow I just didn't know this.

    Bobby Edge (56:01)

    No. I only started doing it like on a more professional level two or three years ago.

    Scott (56:13)

    Okay, see, but you don't have anything, like I scroll through your Instagram, you don't post, I'm recording such and such. Like I was trying to like just, I was like, his Instagram never mentions anyone. There's a little track, he's recording himself, that doesn't count. Okay, next, next. Like I couldn't find any record of you doing this.

    Bobby Edge (56:16)

    I always Yeah, yeah. I'm also just bad at like social media. It's the last thing I want to do for anything. It just sucks the soul out of me. You know? Like, man, I could be like, guess what guys? Me and this band just recorded the song of the summer. And it's just like, it's such disposable forms of, I don't even want to use the word content because I don't like that.

    Scott (56:37)

    Yeah. I understand. No, can't do that.

    Bobby Edge (57:04)

    I don't even, I feel like the way that the language has changed is to devalue the art itself. When it's called content or a product, I don't want anything to do with it. When it's called art or music, yes, I love that.

    Scott (57:17)

    Yeah. Yes. And I remember when I first started this record label, I think that's probably like the third record in, and I realized that my opposition to social media, my opposition to advertising besides just passing out flyers needed to change because now bands were trusting in me to make their music heard.

    Bobby Edge (57:39)

    Sure.

    Scott (57:44)

    and that recording it and putting it out was only part of the process. And then the only way that somebody in was gonna hear about this record and buy it is if I did this. So I like literally took a class on like social media marketing. I resisted it. But then I realized I had a responsibility to the bands I work with.

    Bobby Edge (58:02)

    Sure. And that that's the one thing that I don't like is that you have to you have to do it no matter what because no matter how you feel This is the objective reality of the world

    Scott (58:08)

    Yep. Yep. Yep, because I do ads in like Razorcake and New Noise and Scene Point Blank and I do flyers and I do email blacks with people like, but I guarantee you when I have a record come out that most of the people hear about it via social media. You know, I have a distributor but you know, even if they buy 15 of a record, well.

    Bobby Edge (58:36)

    Yeah.

    Scott (58:42)

    I mean, maybe they have five record stores in all of North and South America and Europe that bought it and they each got three record. Like that's not exactly like getting it in the hands of people, right?

    Bobby Edge (58:53)

    Yeah, yeah

    Scott (58:55)

    So it's a two-edged fucking sword.

    Bobby Edge (58:57)

    It's just like a struggle from the DIY perspective to do any of this and like not lose your fucking mind. We can say that on YouTube, right? We can say fuck again. Okay. I don't know what their rules are. They change the rules every like three days, you know?

    Scott (59:01)

    It is. It is. you can fucking say that, yeah, yeah, yeah. We can say fuck, I put it that way. I mean, WORLDSUCKS wants to get rid of everything. And on one level, I immediately respect and admire them for wanting to. On the other level, like, well, they also wanna play bigger shows and play festivals. And unfortunately, festivals are gonna look at that shit. And if you don't have followers and views and you don't listen, like,

    Bobby Edge (59:33)

    yeah, they're gonna find your old shit.

    Scott (59:39)

    If they've never heard of you, that's how they're gonna judge you, because they haven't heard of you. If they've heard of you, that's different. If you're able to just tour nonstop and get your word of mouth out there and just be known just for that, it is.

    Bobby Edge (59:43)

    You're... Yeah. That's hard now though too, like because it was always hard to tour and get people out to the shows, but like even now, like I did that long tour with the public surfers last year. We had a lot of good shows, but you you just kind of get a better temperature on the rest of the country and you're like, man, like, you know, like things are...

    Scott (59:58)

    Yep. Yep

    Bobby Edge (1:00:18)

    I think that was that the first tour I did after the pandemic? No, I did two with my band, with my solo band. But yeah, you kind of get a feeling that like, man, something's different here. Something's kind of wrong. It doesn't feel right.

    Scott (1:00:35)

    And it's hard to know and I booked tours for bands and I'm finding I have to book tours five months out now. And that's really hard to book five months out.

    Bobby Edge (1:00:47)

    Well, you get the venue that says, we don't book that far out. And you get to the venue that says, we only booked six months out.

    Scott (1:00:50)

    Yes. Yes, you know, like literally I'm booking for RBNX and Negative Raxxx and I think January like third someone already has booked Like it's January fucking third Like that's four months. That's four months. I mean I started on this couple weeks. It's like that's four months from now So again, we booked five months out. I was like

    Bobby Edge (1:01:01)

    Yeah. Doug. Alright.

    Scott (1:01:14)

    You know, it's, it's, you know, you have to get bands to decide they're gonna go on tour five months in advance. Like, can barely get bands that schedule band practice next week.

    Bobby Edge (1:01:18)

    on to the next. I mean, you could barely find a band that's gonna stay together, that's gonna be guaranteed still together in those next five months. Not my, my, fuck, yet it is my experience. It's hard to keep a band together, know, especially, I think it's a lot because of the age that we're at and not everybody wants to sleep on a floor or a cheap room in a motel or...

    Scott (1:01:28)

    Yes! absolutely!

    Bobby Edge (1:01:52)

    You know, play to empty rooms some night. I don't mind. Man, it's fun. It's fun.

    Scott (1:01:56)

    I don't either. I'm telling you, I'm almost at that stage where I could do a long tour with you soon. I'm not quite there yet. But we would get along. Five months out.

    Bobby Edge (1:02:03)

    Let's do it. All right, I'll start booking it now. Five months out. Five months from now. Are you ready? Yeah.

    Scott (1:02:13)

    I am this close to finishing my PhD, so let me just.

    Bobby Edge (1:02:15)

    You good, so you could be our doctor on tour too. In case anybody gets sick.

    Scott (1:02:21)

    I'm not that kind of doctor. I can talk to you about graphic novels and how to engage in historical empathy for marginalized histories if you want.

    Bobby Edge (1:02:30)

    Well good, you know why? Cause like most of the problems I have on tour is anxiety. And if you talk to me about something boring like that, it would calm me down. I'm sorry, I'm like almost done with this big ass beer and I'm getting frisky.

    Scott (1:02:37)

    Boring! How darest you! No, I get it, I get it. know, anxiety I get. Yeah, I'm pretty stable on tour. I've always been the stable tour person. I don't over drink, I don't do drugs. I'm really polite and I don't really get angry. And I'm never nervous about anything.

    Bobby Edge (1:02:49)

    that kills me on tour. That's like the killer. Yeah. I gotta learn how to do that man because like... i wish i could say that

    Scott (1:03:12)

    I think everything just works out. Everything just always works out. When

    Bobby Edge (1:03:12)

    i have one yeah yeah uh

    Scott (1:03:17)

    I was on tour with Call in Dead I was like, hey, we should just go to this venue. We already get a free meal. like, but load in is not until 6. well, we'll just go at four. He's like, well, what if they're offended? was like, what if they say no, we just go somewhere else. was like, don't say that. You always say that. Everything works out. Everything doesn't always work out, Scott. I was like, or does it? It just doesn't work out the way you want it to.

    Bobby Edge (1:03:35)

    It kinda does. Well, yeah, you know, that's kinda the thing. That's the music way, you know? I'm always like, well, we'll figure it out.

    Scott (1:03:39)

    But it works out. it doesn't always work. But nothing's ever that bad. We'll figure it out. Worst thing that usually happens on tours is a show gets canceled. You know, that sucks. But you know what?

    Bobby Edge (1:03:54)

    That's the, yeah. Yeah.

    Scott (1:03:59)

    You deal with it. You can flip out or you just go, okay.

    Bobby Edge (1:04:00)

    Yeah. I don't know, just go to Taco Bell, chill. Like, let's use the merch money to get really fat. And like, feel like shit. Yeah.

    Scott (1:04:05)

    Yeah. Yeah, go get a cat puzzle, like go to a hotel room, watch CSI, drink some beer, do your cat puzzle, it's fine. Yeah, it is what it is. Just take it for what it is. You're in a new town you've never been to, enjoy the town.

    Bobby Edge (1:04:13)

    Yeah, let's smoke weed, let's play like magic cards. Yeah, fucking who cares? I do like that. I love just getting dropped off, sitting at the hotel, and I'll just be like, well, what's near here? And I'll try to find my buddy, whoever is in the band. We're like, all right, where we going? You want to go to get some margaritas? That's always my go-to. was like, there's got to be a Mexican restaurant near here, no matter where we are in the United States. And I'm like, we'll get some margaritas. We're going to have a good time. We'll get a little drunk. We'll come back.

    Scott (1:04:25)

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't drink margaritas. I don't drink margaritas at home anymore. So my kids will tell you that the only time they've seen me drunk was margaritas.

    Bobby Edge (1:04:54)

    What happened? Was there... Okay.

    Scott (1:04:59)

    We were on a cruise and there was like a Margaritaville and it was like in a pool and I had like three perfect margaritas which I guess are just all liquor, like there's no mix. And I felt great until I didn't feel great and I was walking my youngest kid back to the boat because my older kid and my wife were off doing whatever. And I got her to the room and then I fell asleep. And then I got woken up and immediately vomited into like a garbage can and my wife's like, where's your daughter? was like, where's my daughter?

    Bobby Edge (1:05:04)

    I love that. very good. That's never a good time. Yeah.

    Scott (1:05:27)

    Yes, where's your daughter? I was like, where's my daughter? And then she popped up onto the blanket, there she is, like, you had no idea, I was like, yeah, I did not remember getting back to the room. I mean, I did, and so I said, I I don't do that. I was like, that's the one time in all my 15, 16, 17 years now I'm having kids, I'm like, nope, I can't do that, I have children. That was one time I over.

    Bobby Edge (1:05:33)

    I you Yeah. Yeah. I can... I can feel that hot headache that you brought, that hot headache that's just here. People are talking to you, you don't understand what the fuck they're saying. You're trying to like put things together, like everything's coming together in a blur, and then you're like, huh?

    Scott (1:06:01)

    Yeah. Hmm

    Bobby Edge (1:06:10)

    no, I didn't take a shit in the fucking trash can at Waffle House, did I? I kinda, like, I thought that was a dream! Aww.

    Scott (1:06:15)

    I do that? I don't remember doing that. Did I tell you? like, yeah, you told me this last time. was like, when? He's like, like five times. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a long time ago, so. So, all right, my brother, we try and keep these to about an hour, and I think you have shared an amazing amount of information. For those of you out there in, I can chat with you all day long, but I don't know if anyone wants to listen to that.

    Bobby Edge (1:06:32)

    Yeah, yeah. Sure. I could sit here for another three hours probably with you, man. Yeah.

    Scott (1:06:47)

    We're gonna do that on our own. We're gonna hang out. So we were just chatting. I could just hang with you all night long. But I need to some dinner. But anyone else in this area, you should all reach out to Bobby Edge. I'll put all the information on the Spotify, the YouTube, all that other bullshit that you can listen to it and say, hey, we wanna record with you. And give Bobby your love.

    Bobby Edge (1:06:48)

    That's fair. Yeah. yeah, I forgot. I gotta eat. I fancy business cards now. Hang on, let me...

    Scott (1:07:13)

    Oh, he's leaving now. Like I had the podcast, he just gets up and walks away. Doesn't even fucking say goodbye. He just gets up and walks away. Where is he? For those of not watching on YouTube, he is not there. He's literally just gone. Okay, now he's back. I was like, I don't have object permanence. It's like I'm a five-year-old.

    Bobby Edge (1:07:14)

    I'm coming back! Hang on. I'm just, I'm, I... Okay. Okay. I have, I have, I have these fancy... I have, I don't, I don't have a website or anything. I don't want to do that. I want to do just like word of mouth between friends. This is Buttertone Studios. I call it Buttertone because...

    Scott (1:07:37)

    Alright, what does that say? Bobby Edge? Okay.

    Bobby Edge (1:07:43)

    My kitchen is behind me here. As you can see, that's way more organized because my wife is like, takes care of that.

    Scott (1:07:45)

    very nice. Okay, see, but like, don't even mention, like, so you're not gonna do social media for your studio. You're gonna keep it all just like word of mouth only. You'll have to.

    Bobby Edge (1:07:53)

    I mean, eventually I probably will have to, you know, but for now it's, you keep it, you know, business card, word of mouth.

    Scott (1:08:08)

    Okay, everyone, once again, you might not have caught all that and something happened, it all got cut out, but we're back again briefly. The dog was barky barky loud. Thank you all so much for listening, watching. Thank you, Bobby. Dude, I love you, man. It's always such a pleasure chatting with you. And the fact that I've now talked to you for an extensive amount of time, like twice in one week, it's just a delight, and I'm gonna see you again like.

    Bobby Edge (1:08:14)

    My dog was barking really loud. Thank you. That's very nice.

    Scott (1:08:33)

    very soon, like almost back to back weekends in September or October. So like I am super stoked for seeing you and I can't wait to hear some of the new shit you're working on brother man, both for your music and for the stuff you're recording. So like you do a solid ass fucking job motherfucker.

    Bobby Edge (1:08:44)

    Thank you. Thank you, thank you very much, I appreciate it.

    Scott (1:08:52)

    Alright everybody, bye!

  • Episode 18: Mike of Lower Worlds Booking

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that spotlights the people behind the scenes who keep DIY and underground music alive.

    From the bookers and sound techs to the zine writers and venue operators, we’re here to give credit where it’s long overdue.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder and owner/operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY label putting out short-run vinyl of live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal shows. After decades in bands and behind the scenes, I know the work it takes to keep a scene going, and today's guest is one of those people doing that work week in and week out.

    I have Mike from Lower Worlds Booking. This is not a corporate agency. He books shows for friends, smaller touring bands, and rising acts who deserve a shot.

    Based in the Boston area, Mike has helped carve out a network of shows that feel personal, thoughtful, and scene-first. Whether it’s a late-night gig at the neighborhood bar The Sil, a sweaty set at your reliable punk bar O’Brien’s, or a community-minded night at Moon Base Salem, an all-ages sober venue, Mike’s fingerprints are all over some of the best shows happening in New England’s underground.

    He’s booked bands like Unseemlier, Sadlands, Megan From Work, Hell Beach, Shrug Dealer, Little Low, Teens in Trouble, and more, creating shows that matter to the people who go and the bands who play.

    Let’s talk about how you do this, Mike. It’s good to meet you, buddy.

    Mike:
    You as well. That was the most thoughtful intro I’ve ever had for anything I’ve ever done in my life. I’d like to say thank you personally.

    Scott:
    Considering we just met, I think I did a pretty good job.

    Mike:
    You really did. It was like you were selling used cars and doing an auction. You were rattling off. It was great.

    Scott:
    Thank you. My years of being a middle school teacher are just like, how do I keep people’s attention?

    Mike:
    You’ve got to be on, or one of those kids is going to burn you.

    Scott:
    Constantly on. It’s funny. I’d get home from work and my wife would be like, how come when you get home from work we don’t see this super hyperactive, funny teacher we hear about? I was like, because I did that for eight hours and now I’m tired.

    There’s backstage me and front-stage me as a teacher. There was a show that had to be put on, and it really was who I was, but it was performer me. It wasn’t me coming home and sitting around in cargo shorts and a T-shirt. It was me wearing crazy suits, having noisemakers, and jumping around like a moron.

    Mike:
    For sure.

    Scott:
    I think I asked a question in there, but now I’m so far gone that I don’t know. Was it about booking things?

    Mike:
    Yeah, I think so.

    Scott:
    That’s your non-band-related role. That’s your scene support role. We can dive right into how you got into booking, or you can start by talking about how you even got into punk and hardcore. What particular scene brought you in, and which one are you most active in now? Natural conversation. Like we’re hanging out at a bar having beers.

    Mike:
    I’d say booking started out of necessity for me and my brother. Back in the day in New England, we had a website called JustAnotherScene.com. It was every band from the area, every venue, and if someone knew the contact information for the person who ran the VFW hall or whatever, the contact information was there.

    Me and my brother’s first band, me and him sat with our home phone and called Elks Lodges and art spaces in towns around us and just booked shows. I guess I never really quit.

    The first one was probably when my dad went out of town and I must have been in ninth grade. I went to a regional vocational high school where I learned to weld. It pulled from like ten towns around us, so in ninth grade I met a shitload of kids who weren’t from my hometown, who were weird like me and played music.

    My dad went to Florida for two weeks, and me and my brother had a show at our house. Forty kids came, and it was cool. After that, we really got on Just Another Scene and started calling places. We called places eight or ten towns away that we had no business booking in. For some reason, all of our friends who had licenses drove out, and we hoped kids from other areas would come. We lucked out. We never lost money on it, which was great.

    It was bring your own PA type stuff. That’s really where I got the start.

    I feel like being a DIY touring musician so much, I never really stopped. I always owed someone a favor, or I felt like we live in a “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” economy. If I ever need a show in Albany, I find a band that sounds like us and DM them. I’ll say, hey, if you ever want to come to Boston, I’ll hook you up. Who do I talk to?

    Nine times out of ten, someone in that band will do it. There are actual physical promoters too, but that has been my role. If someone in my band owes someone a favor, I end up booking that show.

    I’ve done it in Boston. I lived in California for ten years, and I think I booked shows for seven of those years. I might have booked a show or two when I lived in Michigan for a while. Touring so much made me have to do it. I don’t tour like I used to anymore, but I still do it because I’m always going to be that kid who isn’t the popular one who instantly gets booked. I have to dig for it. And when kids dig for it, they find me, and I’m like, yeah, shit, sure. You deserve the same chance I got 10 or 15 years ago.

    Scott:
    That all sounds very familiar. So just unpacking a little bit of that. You had websites, but you were using home phones, so we’re talking early 2000s, right?

    Mike:
    I think the house show at my dad’s was 1999 or 2000. After that, it was printed MapQuest directions through 2007 or 2008.

    Scott:
    In the DC area, we had a board called Pheer Board, P-H-E-R. I remember my late ’90s and early 2000s band, The Overprivileged. I wanted to do shows, so I messaged every band and venue on there. I’d call them and message them.

    There were shows at the Kaffa House, and I was like, how do I do shows there? Oh, I just call them and say I’m going to do it. Then I have to bring a PA. I don’t have a PA. So the first band I book has to be one I know has a PA.

    It was that whole process. Then when you’re going on tour, you email people and say, hey, I’m coming through. I’d love to play your area. If you help me out, I promise I’ll help you out in the DC, Baltimore, Northern Virginia area. I booked all over the place there.

    Even now, I manage a band called WORLDSUCKS and I book their tours. At the end of the email, I still say, by the way, I’m a local show promoter, and if I can help you, I will.

    I’ve had to learn to say no. I don’t know if you’ve had that trouble as a booking person, where you want to be so helpful that you say yes, then realize you’ve got seven shows booked in a month and you can’t promote them all or even get to them all. I have a job, a wife, and kids. I’m like, how did I wind up booking six shows this month plus two festivals I have to vend at? I have to be able to say no. Have you run into that?

    Mike:
    One hundred percent. I do the exact thing you just said probably twice a year. I’m like, I’m going to take a break. Then I realize I have 11 shows, and I actually have to take that break.

    I’m in that process right now. I have two shows in Boston while I’m physically on tour. I have three shows the week before those. Then right when I get back, I’m either playing one and booking two through the end of August.

    I told myself, that’s it. You’re not doing shit in September. If someone asks your band to play, you can play, but you’re not booking anything.

    Then my friends were playing New York City. They didn’t even ask me. I saw the show and said, are you coming to Boston? They said, yeah, early October. I was like, all right, I got it. And it’s booked. I’m an idiot.

    It feels like some duty or service I have to provide because I owe so much to this culture and so many people. And honestly, nine times out of ten, if I reach out, it’s because I physically really like the band.

    Scott:
    That’s where it gets hard. I’m doing a show this Wednesday that I initially thought I couldn’t do because I thought I was going out of town with my wife for our 20th wedding anniversary.

    I try hard not to book shows I’m not going to be present at. I have found people now who can help me, but in years past, some venues had staff and you knew if you booked the show there, they’d be fine. But a lot of places I book around here don’t have a door person, don’t have a PA, and don’t have anyone making sure things are running on time. If I’m not there, it’s literally not a show. It’s a shit show expecting the bands to figure it out. I don’t like to do that.

    But I was like, okay, I’m going to book it because they were struggling to find a spot. There were three bands on tour together, which is always hard, and they wanted an all-ages venue, which is always hard. I had one. I had to call someone and say, hey, these bands need help. I really like them. I recorded one of them for an album, but I think I’m out of town. Can you run this for me?

    I watched them for two months posting, “Hey, we still need a show.” I gave them contacts. I have a major spreadsheet, and I think I shared it with you once.

    Recently Trey from Jukebox Romantics asked me about a date, and I already had like three shows within 36 hours. I was like, I can’t. It wouldn’t be respectful to the other shows. I want to help you. I love your band. I love who you are as a person. But I can’t do it.

    Mike:
    I lucked out because the majority of my shows now are at O’Brien’s. We have a lack of venues in Boston, but O’Brien’s runs itself. So I don’t have to be there, but nine times out of ten, I’m physically there anyway. Even if I have to be up at 5 a.m. the next day or I’m going out of town, short of dying or being 3,000 miles away, I’m going to be there.

    I also have to shout out my friend B-Man, who does a thing called We Book Things. Most of the shows I do now, me and him just team up because we know if one of us can’t be there, the other one can. That way we always have one representative.

    My fiancée helps with all the flyers. Andrea, who is in Unseemlier with me, has started wanting to be more involved with booking too. So if some of her friends hit her up, she’ll do it as Lower Worlds or whatever.

    It’s not just me anymore. But what sucks is I’m a control freak. So it’s generally just me. I’m like, it’s not going to happen right if I’m not there, and I freak out.

    Scott:
    I get that. I’m going to be there this Wednesday, and Savannah was like, so you’re going to be there? That’s great. What can I help you with? Can I pick up some food? I was like, no, I’ve got that covered. How about the door? No, I’ve got that covered too.

    She’s trying to help, but I’m like, if I’m there, I feel weird handing stuff off.

    Mike:
    That’s exactly it.

    Scott:
    Let’s talk backline. You mentioned being a touring musician. What’s your backline philosophy?

    Mike:
    As someone who plays multiple instruments, my head has all ohm settings on it. If I’m ever borrowing someone’s cab, it’s going to work.

    With drum stuff, I have the foresight to ask, if I’m backlining my drums, how many crashes do you use? The amount of times I’ve had to run back to a practice space because the backline drummer only uses one crash, or doesn’t use a rack tom and didn’t tell anyone, is ridiculous.

    It’s little tiny things people don’t think about because it’s their style, but it’s not the common thing. Then you have to figure it out on the fly.

    Scott:
    When I moved up here, I joined a band, and the first three shows we did were all backlined. The first show I showed up and the rack tom was like a six-inch salsa tom or roto-tom. I was like, really? No. I play hardcore punk. That’s not going to work for me. But I didn’t bring my drums.

    The next show I brought my drums anyway, and thank God, because the backline was some kit you’d use in seventh-grade school concert band. It was patched together. I’d rather bring mine and leave it in the car, depending on the city.

    Mike:
    There are a few cities in the U.S. now where I feel like there are equipment theft rings, and I’d be wary. But nine times out of ten, I’d rather leave it in the car. If something fails, someone could break a bass drum head. And who has an extra bass drum?

    Scott:
    That happened to me in Florida. I was doing a festival, and it was either my wife’s birthday or our anniversary or something. We agreed I could play because we’d go on second at like two o’clock, then leave and go on with our weekend.

    One drummer said I could borrow his drum kit. I rolled up and there was duct tape all over the bass drum head. Three songs in, my bass drum pedal went through it. That was it. I could change out a snare. I could change out other things. But I can’t change out a bass drum if I didn’t bring it. I had brought my breakables, snare, cymbals, and pedal. Everyone brings a snare because everyone understands why it’s called a breakable. But a bass drum is not usually considered breakable, even though it can happen.

    Mike:
    That’s why I bring stuff just in case. There’s nothing to be done. There’s no quick fix for that. It’s not like breaking a guitar string.

    Scott:
    You mentioned flyering. I’ve heard from a lot of people that they find it fascinating that I do both social media and flyering, so it’s good to hear you also do paper flyers. What is your flyering process? Do you hit multiple towns? Do friends help you?

    Mike:
    Again, I’m a control freak. I do it all on my own usually. Andrea has tried to start helping.

    When I say flyering, when I was booking in the Bay, I had a list from Richmond, California, all the way down to East Oakland. I lived in Oakland or Alameda, depending on when. I would get in my car on my day off and check every single one of them off neurotically. If I rolled up and there was a cop on the corner, I’d wait a couple minutes or loop back around after hitting other spots.

    The normal spots were record stores I knew, like 1-2-3-4 Go, or Gilman. I’d put flyers on the pole in front of Gilman. Some shows were actually at Gilman, so that was the place to flyer anyway.

    If I’m physically at a show, I’m handing out flyers. It is the bane of anybody I go to a show with because I’m standing there until the last person has walked out, flyering.

    At certain points, I’m doing so many shows that I have a handbill on the front and the list on the back. I call it The List. It’s just however many shows long.

    Scott:
    I almost want to run downstairs and grab mine. I have four handbills that I fold into squares, and on the back it has the list of all my shows. I was passing these out at a show the other day. I went up to Albany because this band is coming down later in September, so I went to their show, passed them out, and had all the other shows on there too.

    If I just put them on the table, no one picks shit up off the table. You have to hand it to people. People do not passively pick up paper.

    Mike:
    Exactly.

    Scott:
    I usually say, list of shows in the area if you’re interested. If it’s an older demographic, I’ll joke that it’s like we’re in the ’90s at the Palladium. Younger kids thank me. I’m like, no, thank you for not ignoring me and making me feel self-conscious.

    I joke that I’m bringing paper back. I’ll go to house shows in New Paltz, where there’s a college, and it’s full of people who could easily be my own children. I’m the 50-year-old man handing out flyers to every kid I see. But I’ve actually made good friends at those shows. I call them kids, but they’re young adults. They come out to my shows, and some of them are in bands.

    I only moved here three years ago, and going to shows and passing out flyers is one of the best ways to get to know people.

    Mike:
    For sure. I feel like we’ve reached a point where even kids of that generation are sick of screens, and they don’t want Instagram to be the only place they find out about a show.

    I joined a message board recently called Freak Scene, which is another place where I post every show I book. But I don’t feel like there’s one specific thing anymore. TikTok got really popular, but I’m old by the standards of not having TikTok and never using it. No matter how much people talk about band brand, and how you have to sell yourself nowadays, I can’t do selfie videos. I won’t do that shit.

    I’m too technologically unadvanced to be a TikToker, so my flyers aren’t on there. I’m trying every other little way.

    Also, superstitiously, I feel like a show will fail if I don’t flyer for it. It’s a weird tick I have. If I didn’t put in the work, it’s not going to happen. If I put in the work and only 20 people show up, I know I put in the work. I feel good. I did everything I could.

    Scott:
    Exactly. I’ll think, I did 100 11x17s, 50 8.5x11 flyers, passed out 400 handbills, did three different social media posts, videos of the bands, photos of the bands, and a video of me talking about coming to the show. I did everything I could conceivably do.

    Mike:
    That’s the risk we all take. I’m sure the touring bands you book know that and have dealt with that. I’ve been paid $12 in Canadian change as the door before. It is what it is. That’s the culture we exist in. We do what we love, and it doesn’t pay the bills, but it is what it is.

    Scott:
    Even when I lose money, because I try to make sure every band gets paid, I always look at it like if I went out with my friends and had wings and beer, I’d probably be out $100 anyway. If I’m out $100 paying the touring band, but I had a great time, that’s fine. If I had to drive to Philly to see that band, it would cost me more money than paying them to come here.

    Mike:
    If you put on the show and lose $50, you would have lost that driving to Philly without even counting the food or the hours.

    Scott:
    It’s about perspective. If my goal was to build a media empire, then I’m failing miserably.

    Mike:
    Same.

    Scott:
    I don’t understand the magician tricks that kids want on TikTok to make them come to shows. My aesthetic is simple. I post the flyer. But I see people post photos of bands, and the flyer comes after three or four photos. I’m like, why wouldn’t the flyer be first? What if they don’t scroll right to see the flyer? Apparently I’m wrong and it’s the photo that people respond to.

    Mike:
    The facial recognition algorithm is what I’m told. Sometimes I’ll do that. I’ll put on some goofy construction worker high-vis stuff and Macho Man Randy Savage shades on the job site, take a selfie, and then put the flyer next. I know it does facial recognition stuff, but it still makes me feel cheap because I don’t even like posting myself on the internet as myself, never mind as Lower Worlds Booking.

    Scott:
    I don’t mind posting myself, but now that I’m older, I feel weird about having ever taken pictures of my kids. I didn’t really ask permission for them to have a social media presence. Of course they’re fine with being on social media now.

    The one time I tried TikTok and it worked, it only worked because my kid, when she was like 12 or 13, made a video for a show I was doing in Orlando and used some line from Euphoria. I was like, wow. That did really well on TikTok. I don’t think it brought anybody out to the show, but it did well on TikTok.

    Mike:
    That’s wild too. You went the extra step, and it didn’t benefit your show, but thousands more people saw it for some reason.

    Scott:
    It’s ridiculous. I’m doing a 7-inch for the last Two Man Advantage show. They were going to make a post. I told them to add me as a collaborator. Then I saw it and I wasn’t a collaborator. I messaged and asked why. He said, I did add you. I added you as a collaborator on Facebook. I was like, Facebook? I didn’t know you could do that on Facebook. He said he didn’t know you could do it on Instagram. They’re older than me. It’s wild.

    Mike:
    When people are older than me and I see the goofy things that happen while booking, I’m like, oh my God. And there are definitely things I fall short on. But if someone falls shorter than me, I’m like, we’re all fucked. It’s over.

    Scott:
    I taught middle school, so I’m kind of in the know of a certain amount of technology. But then I’ll talk to someone older who has no Instagram page for their band. I had The F.U.’s here a little while ago from Boston. They don’t have a band Instagram. It’s just John Sox’s page. I asked why they don’t make a band page, and he said, why do I need to do that? I don’t know how to explain it other than, because it’s your band.

    Mike:
    He predates the internet in punk, so he can do whatever he wants. The people who see the paper flyer that says The F.U.’s on it are going to be stoked. But the people who don’t get handed that flyer aren’t going to know.

    Scott:
    It’s fascinating.

    Mike:
    I’m glad he gets to live in that reality because I wish I could and I can’t. I do band-brand stuff all the time.

    Scott:
    I don’t want to entirely disparage it because I couldn’t have a record label and probably couldn’t promote shows as well without it. But it’s still a time sink, and it’s not my skill set. I’d rather be at Kinko’s making cut-and-paste collage flyers and hanging them everywhere with a staple gun.

    Mike:
    Same.

    Scott:
    I do have the benefit of having been a teacher. I had to learn to use technology to be a teacher. Oddly enough, I taught at a small Catholic school in Florida, and most of the other teachers were older Catholic school women, and their technology skills were often not at the highest level.

    During the pandemic, I had to show many of them not only how to upload videos to YouTube or Vimeo, but also how to use screen capture software to record lessons. That was a little more advanced.

    Mike:
    That’s more than I could do.

    Scott:
    Back to booking. You’re booking shows regularly now. Do you actively look for bands, or do you wait for people to come your way?

    Mike:
    A little of both. The show in October I was mentioning is a band called Squint. They’re on Sunday Drive Records. They kind of sound like Military Gun or that ’90s nostalgia, gritty vocal type stuff. I’ve known Brendan, who sings in the band, for years because we used to play in hardcore bands, and I’d play with his bands in the Midwest. He’d always come out to whatever shows I was playing. He’s a really nice kid.

    I saw he posted that Squint was playing New York. I asked if they were coming to Boston. He said they didn’t have a show. Within two seconds, it was booked at O’Brien’s. Simple.

    A lot of the time, I get DM’d. I check it out, and I’ve learned to say no if it’s outside my wheelhouse because I don’t want to disappoint someone. If it’s a scene I’m not familiar with or something that isn’t for me, I’ll pass along links. But it’s probably better for them to play Manchester, New Hampshire, to people who actually like that style, instead of Boston to people who don’t. I’m not equipped for Americana folk or emo rap or whatever the kids love that hits me up.

    Scott:
    I get that. What are your usual genres? Hardcore, hardcore punk, metal?

    Mike:
    I don’t really have one. My next shows are Shrug Dealer from New York City, who kind of sound like A Wilhelm Scream. The following Monday is Glowing Brain from Oakland, who are like Motörhead worship. Then Thursday after that is Somerset Thrower from Long Island and Hush Money from L.A., so fast punk, gravel-voice type shit.

    Then after that, I have No Lights from Oakland, who are like indie rock/noise rock. After that is Spark of Life from L.A., who were an early 2000s straight-edge band on New Age Records. Now they sound a little more on the Fest punk/Samiam side, but they were a straightforward hardcore band.

    On those shows, my band Little Low is playing the Shrug Dealer show, and we don’t sound like Wilhelm. We sound like Get Up Kids or Hey Mercedes or early 2000s emo. But enough people in Boston like both styles that it’s fine.

    I’m always trying to avoid having the same four bands, because that gets stale to me.

    Scott:
    It does. I have a monthly show at Snapper Magee’s in Kingston, and those are really diverse. Indie rock, ska, deathcore, youth crew, all on the same bill. It’s five bucks for five or six bands. At the end of one show, a guy said, “You know what, Scott? I don’t always like every band, but I usually like four of them.” I was like, four out of five ain’t bad for five bucks.

    Mike:
    Growing up, the shows you went to were like that. Tell me you didn’t see Thursday and Hatebreed together, or weird flyers with Get Up Kids and Converge. Those are polar opposites now, and people don’t let those things cross, but I grew up on that.

    I don’t book one style because I grew up that way, and I listen to all that stuff. Anytime I saw a mixed bill, nine times out of ten I was the only friend who liked every band. It would be Blood Brothers opening, then American Nightmare, then Fairweather. Three completely different bands that were somehow close enough to play together.

    Scott:
    I manage WORLDSUCKS, and I had a show for them with Proper Punktuation from Philadelphia, who are folk punk, Vin Tri Hill, who are pop punk, and You Betcha!, who are pure emo. Just put it all together.

    Mike:
    That’s what it is now. I feel like it has come full circle. For a while it was really divided, but now kids are so hungry for it that they’re not differentiating as much.

    There was a time when you had to put a moniker in front of every subgenre. Backpack screamo or whatever. The one tiny differentiation that made your band not like that other band. Now kids are just like, this rocks, or this honks. Whatever you like, you like.

    Scott:
    After I moved here, particularly with some younger bands, I found bands where I don’t know what the fuck they are. There’s a band in this area called Meow Meow. I’d call it a mixture of Creedence Clearwater, My Chemical Romance, Louis Armstrong, and ’90s punk rock. All thrown together. I don’t even know. But it’s great.

    Kids today grew up with Spotify and access to everything. My daughters did School of Rock, and one semester you do one sound, next semester another. When you and I were younger, I’d walk into a friend’s house and say, give me all your blank tapes so I can copy them. It was hard to learn music, so I became more narrow in what I was listening to. Nowadays, it’s all there.

    Mike:
    Back then, it was early internet, and I found bands from thank-you lists or compilation CDs. The Plea for Peace comps had At The Drive-In, Piebald, The Hope Conspiracy, My Chemical Romance, Avenged Sevenfold. Every band under the sun that was remotely alternative. It was before most of them had shirts in Hot Topic, so we didn’t have that easy access.

    Now they do have easy access, and they don’t give a fuck. They’re just like, yeah, sure. Whatever comes my way.

    Scott:
    When I moved here, I was told the Hudson Valley is a hardcore scene, a heavy hardcore scene, and that punk and ska don’t really go here. I was like, you say that until someone starts putting on shows. All of a sudden there are punk and ska bands. I’ve had people say I’m bringing punk rock back. But I’m not bringing punk rock anywhere. It was always here. Someone just had to put on the show and let the bands play.

    I like heavy hardcore. No disrespect to it. I’m just saying there are other forms of music too. There was a lot of pure, heavy, beatdown, tough-guy, crowd-killing hardcore.

    Mike:
    For Poughkeepsie, I remember going to really heavy shows out there when I was younger and seeing early internet videos of how wild those shows could be.

    It’s funny because you say you’re booking ska and punk and people are saying you’re bringing it back, but I feel like ska is back. It did go away for a while. I feel the same way about screamo. Those are the two biggest subgenres right now. I don’t know where it came from, but I’m here for it. I don’t personally love either one, but it’s sick that it’s back.

    Scott:
    Screamo isn’t my normal thing, and with ska, I think it was the pandemic. That’s when it came back for me. I was sitting at home frustrated and annoyed, and suddenly I discovered Bad Time Records. I was like, Catbite, Bad Operation, Kill Lincoln, We Are The Union. I started buying all these bands. It was really hard to be depressed and sad during the pandemic while listening to happy ska music. I bought every fucking record that label put out.

    Mike:
    I feel like people were sick of being sad. Ska is the soundtrack of a kid who got a free pizza slice on Friday after getting out of school early. You can’t not be happy.

    Scott:
    It’s the kid who gets totally jazzed that he has a can of Jolt Cola and some Pixy Stix and is going to sit down and watch a movie with friends. That’s how I would have been in seventh or eighth grade, loving life.

    Mike:
    And the opposite side is screamo being back, which is the saddest people. The happiest and saddest people are having their heyday in underground music again. I love it.

    Scott:
    At Not Croydon Fest, a kid asked what I had, and I said I mostly had hardcore punk. He asked what hardcore punk was. I told him I graduated high school in 1995, and one of my first compilations was Faster & Louder: Hardcore Punk Vol. 1 and 2. It had The Dicks, MDC, Dead Kennedys, Agent Orange, and all that. That was considered hardcore because all hardcore was punk, not all punk was hardcore, and no hardcore was metal yet.

    Nowadays, hardcore usually means metal, so I have to say hardcore punk so people know I mean Bad Brains more than Hatebreed.

    Mike:
    That became a huge division. I had friends who specifically called their bands hardcore punk because in Massachusetts we have a historically heavy, violent scene. They wanted the differentiation because they were sick of calling places and saying hardcore, and the place would say no because five kids kicked a hole in the VFW wall two weeks ago.

    We had a small bar in my hometown of Stoughton called 49 Monk Street. Historically, I think Dropkick Murphys did the Do or Die record release there. Even more historically, we had a recording studio called The Outpost, made famous by Bob Mould after Hüsker Dü. One of his roadies during Sugar was from that town and knew the studio. All of the Sugar records were recorded there, and people held up the sound quality in such high regard that it became where you went to record.

    From the mid-’90s to maybe 2010 or 2011, any Boston band, basically all the Bridge Nine releases, were recorded there. People would fly in. I feel like Rancid recorded there.

    Me and my brother tried to book 49 Monk Street once, and they said, yeah, as long as it’s not that band Bad Luck 13. We only knew Bad Luck 13 through a BMX video for a Philly BMX company called Little Devil. We didn’t know the full lore yet. Then of course we looked into it and loved it.

    By the time I was booking shows in my area, the older kids in Stoughton had already burned the bridges with all the VFWs and halls in town. So it was really hard to do it right in my town. I’d have to do it in the surrounding towns that hadn’t been burned yet.

    Scott:
    I think I usually played Boston proper. I played a bar once with Darkbuster and a basement with Bones Brigade.

    Mike:
    Was Bones Brigade in the basement of an actual house or the basement of a hall?

    Scott:
    Pretty sure it was the basement of a house. Early 2000s, between 2001 and 2003.

    Mike:
    That might have been The Berwick. It was the basement of a house or college in Jamaica Plain or Roxbury.

    Where would you have played with Darkbuster?

    Scott:
    I know it was a bar, and my drums were set up in the window.

    Mike:
    In the window? All Asia Cafe?

    Scott:
    I don’t remember the name. I just know it was a bar, and the window was behind me. I could see the street from where I was. I think we played with The Profits, like money profits, not predictions.

    Mike:
    Honestly, if Darkbuster and The Profits were playing, I was possibly at that show. Darkbuster played the first small show I ever went to in 1998 in Stoughton. There were local bands from Stoughton called The Scullies, who went on to be in River City Rebels and Lost City Angels. I was lucky because I had an older brother, and there was an older generation of kids doing shows and playing in bands in my hometown that helped us get our foot in the door.

    We got a skate park around then too. Life was sick. I was the ska kid with the pizza on Friday. I was going to VFWs and flea markets that had shows, and then going to the brand-new skate park. It was wonderful.

    Scott:
    You mentioned O’Brien’s. I imagine it’s 21 and up. Do you think about ages with the places you book, or can O’Brien’s do 18-plus?

    Mike:
    Sunday through Wednesday, O’Brien’s can do 18-plus if you ask hard enough in advance.

    Honestly, I wouldn’t really play there until 2013 or 2014 because I was an all-ages-all-the-time kind of person. In the mid-2000s, I booked a lot of basements and warehouse spaces that we had back then. All of them are gone.

    There was one spot on Harvard’s campus called the Democracy Center. It’s the only building on Harvard’s property that Harvard does not own. The basement was filled with junk, like kayaks and stacks of newspapers. The first floor was two function rooms, a kitchen, and what used to be a zine library. The second and third floors were tiny offices he rented to political organizations for very cheap.

    Right now it’s not doing shows. I think he kicked everyone out to rebuild it because it was borderline going to blow over in the wind.

    For a long time I was all ages all the time. It’s hard here now. Moon Base in Salem is doing all-ages all the time, and that’s great. But it became too hard at a certain point. I couldn’t find places. Boston flipped. For a long time, Berklee students didn’t come around, and the basements were for the punks. Now the basements are all Berklee students, and they’re clique-y about it. I understand why they are, because we wouldn’t let them in back in the day. But it’s hard to break into the basements that are left.

    There’s a spot called the Cambridge Community Center, but it’s in a weird part of town with no street parking and no parking lot. It’s not an all-the-time space you can book.

    Scott:
    Have you noticed that you can have two bars within two blocks of each other, and one just has an aesthetic people like better? The same show in two different venues will draw 20% more people if it’s at the bar people like. To me, that’s odd because I go where the show is. I don’t care about the bar. I want to see the band.

    Mike:
    If I love a band enough, I’ll fly into Afghanistan during a war to see them. I’m going anywhere if I care enough.

    But there are times where the venue changes how it feels. I grew up loving heavier stuff and metalcore. I went to the Poison The Well 25th anniversary of The Opposite of December. I saw them when that record came out in 1999 or 2000 at Karma Club in Boston. That show had Rise Against right when The Unraveling came out, Rufio right when Perhaps, I Suppose came out, Poison The Well right when The Opposite of December came out, and Strung Out headlined. Four bands that sound nothing alike. Three of them weren’t big yet but had just released records that would go on to be big.

    When Poison The Well came through recently, they played this new 5,000-cap venue. I had a good time, and I appreciate it for what it is. It sold out, so they couldn’t play a smaller place. But it wasn’t the same.

    Scott:
    Have you ever booked bigger bands into smaller rooms because they wanted to do a small club run?

    Mike:
    I haven’t really stumbled upon that. The closest is booking bands that have no business playing a small room in a small room.

    Do you know the band Spy?

    Scott:
    Yeah.

    Mike:
    They’re on To Live a Lie. They tour a lot. I booked them at Tamarack in downtown Oakland. Legally, you could probably fit 17 and a half people in there. I fit 150 or more in there for Spy one day. Spy and Hologram from DC, I think. They lost the venue, and they knew I booked places. The only place I could find was Tamarack. I was like, this might not be the best idea I’ve ever had, but the people who run Tamarack are cool and punk and they get it. It went off without a hitch.

    That band had definitely outgrown rooms that size by that point, but we threw it anyway.

    The big-band-in-the-small-room thing is cool, but it can also fuck it up for some touring band trying to come through that night and needing a venue. There’s a give and take with the punk economy and the ideals of that idea.

    Scott:
    I believe a rising tide lifts all boats. I’ve done posts where I share shows by other promoters happening the same night if they’re raising money for something good or if my friends are playing. I don’t want people to come to my show just because they don’t know about the others. I want them to go to the show they want to go to.

    But my town is small. We had two punk shows on a Sunday, both starting at 5, a mile from each other. I was like, how the fuck did that happen? We don’t have the community big enough. Both shows were fine. No bad blood. We all love each other. But damn, we should coordinate better.

    Mike:
    I have one that I was booking, but then I couldn’t find a venue in Massachusetts, and now it’s up in New Hampshire. It’s the same night as three friends’ bands playing 45 minutes away in New Hampshire and another friend’s band playing in the same town at a different place. So it’s three shows within an hour of each other in New Hampshire that could all be the same bands. It happens because things are booked so far in advance and sometimes slip through the cracks.

    I wish there was a database where I could put, I have a show August 9, don’t do anything. DM me if you want to collab.

    Scott:
    What tends to happen for me is that when it occurs, the other show almost always has a touring band. Sometimes that touring band reached out to me to be added to my show, but I have a time limit for when my show has to end. I already have six bands. It’s untenable to add another. Then a week later I find out they got a space a mile away. I’m glad they got their tour. I don’t think they owe me anything. It’s just unfortunate.

    There should be enough places outside my town for everyone to go around, but it gets tight sometimes. But that’s good. It means there are a lot of great bands.

    Mike:
    Exactly. Rising tide lifts all ships. It was a hard lesson I had to learn. I used to think, why me? But no, shut up. It’s fine. We all know the risk we’re taking. It’s a you scratch my back, I scratch yours economy for punk.

    The show I have coming up Wednesday that I almost didn’t book, I booked it and then got an email reminder that I bought Hot Water Music tickets for that night. I was like, well, they’re about an hour away. I’ll give away my tickets for a raffle or something and do my show. I’ve seen Hot Water Music a lot, and I’d rather see Triangle Fire, who I’ve never seen live.

    Scott:
    My wife told me The Dollyrots are playing Woodstock and asked if I wanted to go. I asked what day. She said August 3. I said, that’s the day of my hardcore punk show. But I don’t think The Dollyrots and Maafa and Soji are inherently the same fanbase. Different audience. It’s fine.

    The venue they’re playing is The Colony in Woodstock. Nice venue. They don’t do a ton of punk shows, but every now and then they have one I’ll see. I saw The Bobby Lees there. The audience tends to be different. I saw The Dictators there recently and I was easily the youngest person there, which never happens to me.

    So, you say you’re not going on tour anymore, but do you still do show trades for shows outside your area?

    Mike:
    I am doing a tour soon, but it’s only five days. Weekend warrior shit. My band Little Low, where I play drums, is doing Philly at Ortlieb’s. Then Richmond with 40 Reps and Payphones. Then Alexandria at Galactic Panther, which I think is a newer art space. The local is Fond, who just put out a couple singles and are really cool, and another band called Be Safe from Maryland. Then North Jersey with Old Currents and Mike something opening acoustic. Then Sunday we play Connecticut, but closer to your side, in Torrington.

    Scott:
    That’s a good run.

    Mike:
    Other than that, both bands are playing Fest, but we’re flying down because I have bills. I can’t tour to and from Fest. Little Low is playing Friday night at The Palomino, indoors at Boca, and Unseemlier is playing Saturday night at Lucy’s.

    Scott:
    I have a record release show happening there. Wolf-Face and Celebration Summer have a split live album coming out, and that’s the record release show.

    Mike:
    I’m stoked to see Celebration Summer at Fest. They’re on my list. My partner and I are polar opposites when Fest gets announced. I open my notes app because I don’t know how to use technology, and I lay it all out: timeframes, venue, all that shit. She says I’m insane and that it’ll all change. She doesn’t do it until the night before in the app.

    Scott:
    The buddy I go with is already listening to things and picking bands. I’m like, I’ll figure it out when I get there. Every hour there will be a band I’ve seen before, a band I’m friends with, a band whose record I put out, and an unknown band. I’ll make choices.

    Mike:
    In my older years, I’ve started to do the friend stuff instead of going to see the other bands. In my younger years, I was pompous and would say, fuck you, I’m going to see Fucked Up. There was no way I was giving up a chance to see whatever band I wanted.

    Scott:
    It has to be a pretty significant band for me to do that. I left Gorilla Biscuits partway through once to go watch my friends in Protagonist. I was like, am I really leaving Gorilla Biscuits? Yes. That’s how much I love them.

    Mike:
    One time I filled in for my friend’s band from the Bay that played Fest every year because they didn’t have a consistent drummer. I was like, cool, it doesn’t matter who’s playing. Then I shot myself in the foot because it was during Eve 6, and I actually really wanted to see Eve 6. I caught the first couple songs and then ran over to The Palomino to play.

    There is always one band every year where I do not care who else is playing. This year for me, it’s Fucked Up because it has been so long since I’ve seen them.

    Scott:
    I’ve actually never seen them. I remember getting one of their records from my younger brother for a birthday or Christmas present and thinking it was fucking great.

    Mike:
    Do you remember which one?

    Scott:
    White cover with brownish. Maybe David Comes to Life. I think that was it. Maybe it was an alternate cover. Fucking bands repressing things with alternate covers.

    Mike:
    David Comes to Life is definitely a good one.

    Every year at Fest, I try to see bands that come from far away that I know I’m probably never going to see again. This year there are three UK bands: Back Teeth on Sell The Heart, Modern Shakes, and Sunliner. Anytime there are foreign bands that came far away, I try to check them out because touring here isn’t easy, and eventually it’s probably going to be even harder.

    Scott:
    You should check out my earlier podcast with Craig from Foreign Dissent. He books in Orlando, and for 10 years he has done an all-foreign-bands-only Monday night show before Fest. Then someone does Foreign Invasion on Tuesday like two hours away, and someone in Tampa does another one. So bands can come in and play three shows before Fest. Before I went to Fest, when I lived in Florida, I would go to Foreign Dissent and be very happy with that.

    Mike:
    I saw the flyer for Foreign Dissent this year and was like, I should be going to Florida earlier than I am. But Unseemlier plays the Tampa Bay Pre-Fest that Thursday, and I think Sunliner is on that too, so I’m stoked.

    Scott:
    I used to do pre-Fests at Uncle Lou’s in Orlando, and it would often kill me because I was already going to be gone Thursday through Monday for Fest. I was a teacher, so I still had lessons to grade over the weekend. I’d wake up and do schoolwork before going to enjoy Fest. My work didn’t stop just because I took the day off.

    Mike:
    When were you in Florida?

    Scott:
    2008 to January 1, 2023.

    Mike:
    Did you know No Qualms? They were a faster band. My friend John got caught tagging at This Is For You Fest in Daytona and had a court case, so he moved to Florida and started a band.

    One of my bands played with No Qualms at Uncle Lou’s on Christmas night. It was insane. Uncle Lou’s probably legally fits 30 people, and there were maybe 200 out the door. It was literally Christmas night. Nobody wants to be on tour on Christmas, but I was like, fuck it, we’re all going on tour.

    My band was playing 305 Fest down in Miami, a faster punk/hardcore/grindcore type festival. We played Uncle Lou’s, and it ended up being the best show of tour.

    Scott:
    That sounds like Lou’s.

    Mike:
    No Qualms, Direct Effect, maybe others. It was wild.

    Scott:
    What’s the touring plan going forward for you?

    Mike:
    Only so much PTO nowadays. Some people in the band have unlimited PTO, which seems wonderful. Not me. I play drums, so you can’t really replace me that easily. I have taken time off unpaid when I didn’t have PTO available.

    Scott:
    I did that when I toured Europe. I told my boss I was going to be gone longer than my vacation allowed and that I’d take the rest unpaid. They were like, what are you talking about? I was like, take the pay away. I don’t care.

    Mike:
    The only time that worked for me was when I worked for friends. They’d still try to pull the same shit. I’d say, dude, I’m going to Europe for three weeks. They’d be like, what do you mean? I’d say, find coverage. You know exactly who I am and what I do. Of course I’m going to do this. You might have changed, but you knew I didn’t change when you hired me.

    Scott:
    When I did the tour to Europe, I told my boss, you can hire someone else and train them while I’m gone, or wait until I come back. By the time you hire and train someone, I’ll be back. But I’m going. If I have to quit, that’s fine. I’ll find another job when I get back.

    Mike:
    That’s what I did with my high school job. I went to trade school, and if you had good grades, you could go out on co-op and work a physical 40-hour-a-week job instead of being in school. I worked at a shop, and the owner expected me to work there all summer. I was like, no, I’m in high school. I’m not doing 40 hours a week all summer.

    Then the next summer I went on one of my first tours. It was like 10 days. I told him I was heading out, and he said when I got back, I had to be a real man or some bullshit. I worked there for three months after that summer, then my band went on tour again. I told him I was leaving again. He said if I left, I wouldn’t have a job when I got back. I was like, all right, cool. I did it and never went back.

    Scott:
    People don’t realize there are options out there. Sometimes I’d rather find a new job.

    I don’t want to take up more of your time because we’re hitting like an hour and 20 minutes here, but I’ve really enjoyed hanging out with you. Do you drink beer?

    Mike:
    What?

    Scott:
    We’ll have to hang out and drink beer sometime soon.

    Mike:
    For sure.

    Scott:
    Are you going to be with WORLDSUCKS, or are you just booking that tour?

    Mike:
    You mean are you going with them?

    Scott:
    I’m booking it. Sometimes I try to catch parts of their tours, depending on what work I have going on. My work is in flux right now, so we’ll see. They always want me to come on the road with them, but I have other responsibilities.

    Mike:
    That makes sense.

    Scott:
    This has been great. Thank you for coming on and talking about booking, flyering, backline nightmares, Fest, and all this other stuff. I appreciate what you do because you’re clearly doing the kind of work that keeps shows happening for bands that need those rooms and those networks.

    Mike:
    Thank you. I appreciate you having me. It’s always nice to talk to someone who understands how weird and messy all of this is.

    Scott:
    Everyone listening, go check out Lower Worlds Booking, go see Mike’s bands Little Low and Unseemlier, and support the shows happening in your area. If you see a flyer, actually take one. Don’t throw it on the ground. Have a great day, night, evening, whatever it is where you are.

  • Episode 17: Pete Olen of Endoxa Booking and Conduit

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, scene writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore, punk, ska, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands across DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows. I've had the privilege of working with some amazing talent in the scene.

    If you've been to a heavy show anywhere in Florida in the last decade, chances are good that Pete Olen had a hand in making it happen. Pete is the founder of Endoxa Booking, a Florida-based promotional powerhouse responsible for bringing some of the most intense and diverse live music experiences to the Southeast. While Endoxa is rooted in booking punk and metal, it stretches beyond that, booking underground acts such as indie pop and hip hop, always with a focus on quality and community.

    Pete is also the co-owner of Conduit, one of Orlando's most vital independent venues and a hub for touring acts and local talent alike. He was instrumental in helping my band, Call In Dead, get our start, putting us on stacked bills early on with legends like Unsane, Iron Reagan, and Koffin Kats, and later with bands like Escape From The Zoo for my birthday, Necromantix, and even Doyle.

    He's a true professional who treats artists with respect and shows with care, a rare combination in this business. Pete, how the fuck are you doing?

    Pete:
    Do it right. That was a hell of an intro.

    Scott:
    Thank you, sir. I try my best.

    Before we hit record, we were talking about messaging. Let’s focus on your day. You’re booking for Conduit and Endoxa Booking, and you book multiple venues all over the place. How do you manage the deluge of content and bands reaching out to you? I’m just trying to wrap my head around that.

    Pete:
    I don’t. That’s the easy answer. It’s a mess. You do your best. I wake up and there are usually already 100-something emails every morning. You just kind of chip away at it. There aren’t really days off.

    Scott:
    How do you handle the process? I do monthly shows at a place in Kingston, and I do some other shows. My big thing is I like to have touring bands come through because I don’t want to do local showcases. When a local band messages me, I usually put them off to the side and say, once I have a touring show coming through, then I’ll ask you to be on that. But I don’t like to just do a local band showcase.

    Pete:
    I only do nationals, honestly. Florida in general has tons of people who book local shows, so we don’t really need one more. I also come from the background that it’s confusing to me why local shows need promoters in any sense.

    Local bands will hit me up to do stuff at Conduit, Will’s Pub, or somewhere else. I’ll usually say, yeah, I can get the date for you, and if you can find three other bands, I can get a flyer made if you don’t have anyone to do that. But otherwise, I can get you the date for free. We don’t need to pay me 15% for that.

    I’d rather help people get into those rooms and do their own thing than be directly involved in it. I look for locals that fit on nationals, but in terms of local show booking, I tend to stay out of it as much as I can.

    Scott:
    How did you get into booking national acts? I’ve just started dipping my toe into doing bigger bands like Big D and the Kids Table and working with booking agents as opposed to working directly with smaller touring bands. How did you get into that?

    Pete:
    I grew up in South Florida, and we didn’t have venues. We were all metal kids, but we came out of the punk scene where there were shows at the Old School House in Fort Pierce, the Women’s Club in Vero Beach, and rented halls. I learned to book nationals through that.

    There was a guy, Matt Alexander, who did Lab Rat Productions, and a bunch of our friends were just booking our own shows and figuring it out. Then I toured and played in bands, so I spent time doing it that way too.

    At one point I moved to Tampa, and we had a booking agent at the time. I had friends in other bands, and suddenly it was like, Pete can do this.

    It’s a long road from there to here, but none of this was intentional. It wasn’t like, okay, I’m going to be a promoter and this is how you become a promoter. I didn’t go to promoter school. It just organically turned into the thing it is. I started off playing in bands and touring and seeing that side of it.

    Scott:
    I think that’s a natural progression. I’ve been doing this on a different level for 30 years, and it all comes from being in bands. Ninety percent of the people who reach out to me are bands where I either know people from their past bands or they’re friends with other bands.

    But you have a good job of not only booking them, but then having contacts all throughout the Southeast: St. Pete, Tampa, Jacksonville. When I moved here, I had to walk around to smaller venues, introduce myself, and say, hey, this is what I’ve done and this is what I’m doing. Can I start booking shows here?

    How did you build that rapport to get all those venues to trust what you were doing? Was it gradual over years of being in bands and playing there?

    Pete:
    It’s gradual. The reality is that it’s an industry where it’s difficult to get your foot in the door. But once you do, it’s a very small industry.

    It’s a lot easier to book shows in Miami if you can go to someone and say, here’s what I do in Orlando and Tampa. Let’s work together.

    Orlando and Tampa are my stomping grounds, but I do a ton of stuff in Jacksonville and Miami. In Miami, I work with John McHale, who does Breakeven Booking. He’s a longtime legendary hardcore guy in Miami, but like me, he also books indie, hip hop, and all kinds of stuff.

    In Jacksonville, I work with Mikey Sierra, who does Black Sunshine Booking and now runs Underbelly. I tend to co-promote with people because I don’t think you can be a good promoter and get that trust in other markets if you aren’t dialed in there.

    I found that it’s a better strategy to find like-minded people and work with them. Maybe I have agent contacts, bands, or genres they don’t book as much, and I can help get that into Miami, and we can work on it together. That’s generally been my approach outside Orlando and Tampa. I know those markets really well. People know me from being in bands and being around.

    Scott:
    How do you normally handle promotion? When you would do shows for me as a band, I promoted on social media. But I’m nearing 50, so I’m still that guy who makes flyers, goes to shows, passes out handbills, and hangs up posters.

    As a promoter of national acts, do you expect the venue to post it and have posters, or do you have a street team? How do you make sure the national act gets the draw they need?

    Pete:
    There are a couple different things. I definitely don’t expect the venues to do it. The venues tend to be the last promotional outlet for you. Even my venue is the last promotional outlet because your show is one show among 30 that month. It falls on the promoter, the local band, or whoever else is involved.

    Obviously, stuff has changed. I love flyers. The back wall of Conduit is all old show flyers. But these days, if we print a thousand flyers, what do you want me to do with them? I’m not going to go to the mall and hand them out to people. You’re wasting your time and money a little bit.

    I tend to spend a lot of money on ad buys, both on Meta, like Facebook and Instagram, and depending on the band, I spend a good chunk on Reddit these days. Buying and creating video advertising is probably the most effective return on investment.

    Thankfully, I’ve been doing this long enough that we have a pretty built-up mailing list and attention on Instagram, so we have a good reach just posting about stuff.

    For example, I have Brother Ali coming up, and I’ve never booked him before. He’s a Rhymesayers artist. But I have booked Murs a bunch of times. I’ve booked Milo, Prof, and other similar artists. So I can reach out to those ticket buyers and try to get them to come out.

    It’s really digital stuff.

    Scott:
    I hope you’re at least a little bit wrong. I don’t have venues that do shows regularly. I have a monthly one at one place, and I do almost the only shows they do there. It used to be a punk bar, but it barely is anymore. It’s a good-sized punk bar.

    For that one, I do the social media, but there are also areas all around town where people staple flyers to poles. I go to another local venue called Tubby’s that has shows Tuesday through Saturday. Those shows tend to be more indie rock and not as much hardcore or punk, but if I think the show is worthwhile, I’ll go and pass out handbills. I go to local house shows at the college nearby. I run social media ads. I don’t know what works yet because I’m doing everything.

    Pete:
    It’s not bad to do. Passing out flyers isn’t going to hurt you. I just think the return on investment is pretty small. I’m sure you’ve had this experience too. You can pass out 100 flyers and 80 of them end up on the ground.

    Scott:
    I went to see The Dictators and was passing out flyers. I looked around and saw how many flyers went in the parking lot. I was like, it’s fine. It’s fine.

    Pete:
    Posters can be helpful at the venue. But a lot of it, in this day and age, is buying ads through the artist’s account.

    Marketing has changed. Go back to the ’90s and it was like, maybe you could pitch a Death Metal Monday. Someone interested in metal might not know who Atheist or Amon are, but they see Death Metal Monday and decide to go.

    Even when I started playing in South Florida, we put flyers in comic book shops, and people would say, I don’t know who any of these bands are, but this flyer is sick. But I don’t think people consume advertising that way anymore.

    If anything, social media has turned people inward. People are not paying attention to flyers at the shop when they’re just trying to buy something and get out.

    Marketing is different now. With that Brother Ali show, when I’m buying ads, I’m trying to remind people who like him, or maybe saw one video at some point, that this guy still exists and he’s coming to Orlando. What I’m not doing realistically is convincing some guy who is just into hip hop to spend $20 on a ticket. That would be great if people consumed media that way, but they don’t.

    Scott:
    How would you handle something smaller? I had a smaller show with a great band that has members of bigger acts like Good Riddance and Kid Dynamite. But it’s a new band, and I’m trying to run ads on social media. I can’t run ads for people who have seen them before because they’ve never been here before. So I have to focus on genre-adjacent stuff and hope that connects. Am I way off the mark?

    Pete:
    You can do “featuring members of” or “ex-members of.” You can target things that are similar but not the exact thing. You can probably target people who like Good Riddance, but you can also target people who like Fat Wreck Chords or Rancid. Rancid isn’t the same thing, but a lot of the people might be similar.

    I just bought ads for Judge, the New York hardcore band. A lot of classic hardcore stuff like Youth of Today isn’t even a category you can buy ads for on Meta. You end up having to target things that are similar but not the same, like Hatebreed, Sick Of It All, Minor Threat, Bad Brains, or things like that.

    Hardcore is not a genre in Meta, which is weird. They have hardcore punk, which drives me nuts. Hardcore punk to me means Discharge. It’s odd to have to put all this together.

    Scott:
    There are bands I assume should be listed, but they’re not. I don’t understand it.

    Pete:
    There’s tons of stuff. When I book Hispanic artists, there’s often nothing. We’re talking about artists with millions of followers on Instagram, but Meta has nothing connected to them. Who knows?

    Scott:
    Did you teach yourself all of this? Did you take online marketing classes, or just dive in and watch YouTube channels? Meta changes all the time.

    Pete:
    I’ve had phone calls with them over the years, and with Reddit and Google Ads. A lot of it was learning from other promoters and toying around with it.

    As much as Meta is kind of a mess, they are pretty clear about what they want in terms of ad buys. They are clear that they want you to run it for 7 to 10 days. They are clear that they want video over still images. It’s not like it’s a secret formula.

    Then it’s about knowing your artist enough to target correctly. I didn’t take any classes. I met some marketing people along the way and asked for advice. There are also certain tours that want you to buy ads, but they give very specific instructions about how they want you to do it. You can learn a little by looking at why they do it that way.

    Scott:
    You mentioned going into the artist page. Do they give you access to the artist page to run ads, or do you run them off your own Endoxa or Conduit page?

    Pete:
    They give us advertiser access. It’s not like I can go through their inbox or something.

    Scott:
    That’s fascinating. I struggle because so many younger bands don’t even have Facebook, so I can’t make them co-hosts on event pages.

    Pete:
    They have to have Facebook pages connected to their Instagram to buy ads through them. You can buy ads through your promoter page or venue, but it seems to be less effective. You’re giving people one more thing to look at before they figure out what’s going on.

    It’s like ticket buyers. You want the least amount of clicks possible. I’ve seen promoters make the mistake of sending people to a website instead of the ticket link. Then they have to find the ticket link for that show, which goes to a different page. You’re convincing people not to buy tickets by making it difficult.

    Scott:
    I can run an ad on a Facebook event, and people can click it, but then they have to find the ticket in the event. When I run ads, I use a company called Ticketleap, and I try to send them directly to the Ticketleap page because that’s where I want them to go.

    Pete:
    That’s the way to do it.

    I don’t know what works anymore, but I will tell you that Facebook events do not work. It drives me crazy. Most bands don’t bother hosting them. And on the back end of my ticketing platform, I can see a good amount of the analytics about where traffic comes from. No one is going from Facebook event to ticket purchase page.

    I was using this as an example with an agent a while ago. We had sold 150 or 200 tickets to a show, and one came from Facebook.

    Scott:
    Wow.

    I do sell records through Facebook and Instagram. When I run ads for a record I’m putting out, it happens more often than I would think. I can check the analytics and see where stuff is coming from. Anytime I’ve had something on Punknews, I’m sure it helps, but I don’t see someone reading the article and clicking to buy from my site. But if I run an ad on social media, people do click directly or go to my website and buy it.

    Pete:
    I think the website is still the number one advertising tool for a lot of this stuff. It’ll be interesting to see what happens because there are too many ticketing companies for everything to live within apps. People would have to have seven different apps for tickets to different venues.

    Scott:
    What ticketing do you use?

    Pete:
    Right now I use TicketWeb, but these things run in contractual cycles. I was with Eventbrite before that and Ticketfly before that. Every couple years, the contract runs out and you renegotiate.

    Scott:
    That explains it. Sometimes I’m buying tickets to a venue and it’s one platform, then suddenly it’s Dice or something else.

    There was one platform when I first moved up here that I thought was pretty rad. Keith Morris from Circle Jerks had a new band, and it was sold out. It was Memorial Day weekend, but you could sign up and put your credit card in, and if anyone returned their ticket, you could get it. So instead of people reselling it on StubHub, they could get their money back if someone on the waitlist bought it.

    Pete:
    Eventbrite had a waitlist setup. If something got returned or more tickets opened, it would put people in line and email you. You’d have 24 or 48 hours.

    The scalping thing is one of the biggest problems we’re running into. I had a show last night, Paleface Swiss and Stick To Your Guns at The Abbey in Orlando. We had 61 fake tickets that people bought through StubHub, Vivid Seats, and other websites.

    We helped a bunch of them get their money back. The venue was very nice and let us resell them day-of-show tickets even though it was sold out, just to cover some of that. Instead of saying, sorry, we’re at capacity, get fucked, they made sure there was room for it.

    People need to stop giving these companies their money. There’s nothing we can do. I’ve threatened them. I’ve called them and said, take my shows off your website. They don’t care. Anytime you give them money, you’re keeping them around.

    Scott:
    The last time I bought something on StubHub was to go see a football game, and when I got there, the tickets weren’t valid. StubHub got me new tickets, but I had to call them while trying to get into the game. I had driven from Orlando to Tampa, and I-4 is not a fun drive. I was like, what the fuck? I’m going to get into this game.

    Pete:
    We had people drive down from Jacksonville last night with fake tickets.

    Scott:
    How do you handle rapid buying? I remember when Avail did the reunion show in Richmond. I had my wife and a friend trying to get tickets, like six of us trying at once. Within 30 seconds, it was sold out. Luckily my buddy Jaeh got tickets. But I know that was not all human beings. It was gone so fast.

    Pete:
    Some of it is bands being conservative or doing what they want and playing smaller rooms that are going to blow out quickly.

    There are also background processes. TicketWeb uses something that tries to weed out scalpers and bots buying tickets. Depending on the show, especially as it gets closer to selling out, we’ll go through and do passes. If you spend the time, you can find scalpers. They’re not clever.

    I had Paleface Swiss in Orlando yesterday. Why is some guy from Schenectady buying the max number of tickets? They’re not slick.

    But even if you catch them, it doesn’t really matter because what happens is I immediately refund their tickets and block them from the system. That ticket is invalid, but they’re still going to go sell it on StubHub. That’s how we end up in situations like yesterday. We’re essentially powerless.

    A lot of the conversation about secondary ticket markets and being careful with fees, Live Nation, Ticketmaster, and all that misses the simple solution. If you banned reselling, the problem is gone. There shouldn’t be a secondary market at all.

    Scott:
    Should all tickets just be returned back to the venue and resold that way? If I buy a ticket and can’t go, what happens?

    Pete:
    Most tickets are non-refundable, so I don’t even know what there is to return. If a show comes up, buy tickets. This is more difficult with something like Taylor Swift, where they’re selling millions in a second. But changing the fee structure and making things transparent won’t stop the problem you’re complaining about.

    Tie the ticket to someone’s specific ID or name, and that person has to be there and present it. If you want to be drastic, that kills reselling overnight.

    A lot of this also comes back to being careful where you spend your money. People complain about Live Nation and Ticketmaster, and bands complain too, but those same metal and punk bands will still play their venues. Some of it is because they pay a lot of money. Some of it is because in certain cities, if you want to play a room bigger than 500 capacity, you’re going to play a Live Nation room. There’s not a choice.

    Scott:
    It’s not like you have a lot of options. I can see punk bands saying they hate these companies but still using them. It’s like how often I say I hate Spotify or Bandcamp as a record label, but I still use them.

    Pete:
    I think you can do a whole U.S. tour and not play with Live Nation or someone like that. You just have to compromise on some of the rooms you want to play. It depends what’s more important to you. I’m not saying not playing with bigger corporations is always more important. Sometimes playing the right room is more important.

    But if your number one complaint is ticket reselling, then you can’t work with people who resell tickets. As a company, there is no secondary market for what we do. We’re not reselling stock.

    Scott:
    What made you get into opening the venue? You co-own Conduit with Will, right?

    Pete:
    Myself, Will, who owns Will’s Pub, and Jerry, who owns The Orpheum, all went in on the venue.

    It used to be The Haven in Orlando. I played there. The building has been some kind of venue since 1996. Before The Haven, it was something else. When Maria, the previous owner, bought it at the end of 2002, my band must have been one of the first to play there. I’ve had a relationship with her for a long time.

    When she was ready to call it quits, I guess I was the first person she asked. It was always in the eventual plan that owning a venue would be great, but Florida is difficult because of the way liquor laws work.

    Scott:
    How so?

    Pete:
    You can’t just buy a liquor license.

    Florida has a lottery system. Every year, I think in August, you can apply and spend around $100 to get a place in the lottery per county. You can have one entry per Social Security number. If your number comes up, which I’ve never met anyone who has won a license that way, then you get the right to buy a liquor license.

    Otherwise, you have to buy one from someone who already has one.

    Scott:
    So how do people open new restaurants and bars?

    Pete:
    If you’re opening a restaurant, you have a different kind of license where if you sell enough food, that’s different. If you just have a liquor license, you’re not doing food. That’s a specific controlled thing. Most of us who have a liquor license bought it from someone else.

    Scott:
    That reminds me of buying taxi medallions. You can’t get one. You have to buy one from a former taxi driver.

    Pete:
    Exactly. In Florida, if you win the lottery to get a liquor license, I think it might be like $40,000. But since you’re more likely to buy it on the secondary market, they go for anywhere from $300,000 to a million. It creates this black market, essentially.

    Scott:
    That’s mind-blowingly high.

    How did that change your game? People always ask me if I ever want to have my own venue because I do so much show promotion. Sometimes it seems easier to just show up and do the show. You don’t go to every show you book because the venues you book are professional enough to manage it. But owning a venue is an extra layer of responsibility. What made you think, this is it, I’m going to add this additional layer?

    Pete:
    I don’t know if I look at it that way. It seemed like a natural extension of what I was already doing. It has definitely been a learning experience. We’ve been open two and a half years. There are a lot of things I didn’t know that I didn’t know.

    I learned a lot from Will, from the owner of The Orpheum, and from my bar manager, Amber. I knew a lot about show booking. By the time I bought Conduit, I was doing 300 or 400 shows a year, maybe. But I didn’t know much about running a bar. That’s been a big learning experience.

    Scott:
    Have you ever worked in a bar or restaurant?

    Pete:
    When I was a teenager, I cooked in restaurants. In my early 20s, I was a bouncer.

    Scott:
    I’ve run retail, coffee shops, Starbucks, and Caribou Coffee. I’ve been a server before, but I still don’t think I have the full grasp of what it would take to run a bar. I’d have to have an experienced bar manager because there’s so much I don’t know.

    Pete:
    That’s the mistake some people make. You need to find people you think are good, distribute that control and leadership, and trust them to do a good job. Then you let them do what they’re good at.

    Scott:
    And hopefully learn from them. It’s not just saying do this for me. It’s saying do this with me. Let me learn from you. You have experience. I am the owner, but I acknowledge what I don’t know.

    Pete:
    It’s learning, but it’s also generally deferring to their judgment. For example, when it comes to the bar, should we order this tequila versus that one? How should we push this product? I’m happy to have input, but Amber is always going to know more than I do.

    My expertise is booking. That’s the thing.

    Scott:
    Have you ever delegated that out, or do you handle 100% of everything?

    Pete:
    I don’t delegate booking. I have a couple employees. One main one, Casey Laughman, does Moxie Booking. She does more punk shows and a little hardcore. She runs shows, but with actual booking, talking to agents and that stuff, I don’t think that’s something I would ever delegate because it’s the core of the business.

    Scott:
    I recently had some Canadian bands coming through, and I had to really talk to the booking agents about the contract. I was like, okay, I know it’s really about the visa, but you have all this other stuff on there we never talked about in the months prior. I want to make sure I’m not failing to provide what you expect, but also not on the hook for things I can’t provide.

    Pete:
    Music industry contracts are often boilerplate. It’s good to go through them, but you could shorten them by a bunch of pages and put, “per the advance.” We know what the catering budget is, so the three-page grocery list probably isn’t going to work. A lot of times these things are sent out as standard rider stuff.

    Scott:
    I see 12 six-packs of domestic beer, 12 six-packs of this, 36 bottles of that, towels. I’m literally booking you at a venue that holds 120 people.

    Pete:
    My favorite is when bands don’t just want towels, but they want pre-laundered towels. They want you to wash them so they’re softer. They won’t use non-laundered towels because when they wipe their face on stage, they’ll get little fuzzies.

    I’ve had runners not have their favorite day in the world because they had to go do laundry for two hours.

    Scott:
    You said runners. Are those stagehands at the show?

    Pete:
    No, a runner is a specific job for bigger shows, usually 750 people and above. Their job is literally to run errands. The main thing is usually: here’s the catering request, go buy all this stuff and bring it to the venue. But it can be anything from laundry to taking someone to the hotel.

    A couple years ago with Janus, it was like, this guy needs his boots cobbled. Can we find a cobbler? It’s an interesting job. You learn a lot, but it’s all over the place.

    Scott:
    Do the runners work for you or the venue?

    Pete:
    They work for me in that case. The venue isn’t usually responsible for providing anything like that.

    Scott:
    Do you have a consistent set of people? You’re doing 300 shows, 365 days a year. You have to have runners in every city. How do you find support staff who can consistently do the job?

    Pete:
    A lot of it is time. A lot of it is finding people who are already in the industry. If I need a runner for a Janus show, the venue may not employ them, but they know someone who does it.

    A lot of the people I use came from playing in punk bands. Andy Stern is one of the guys who runs shows for me and usually works as a runner for bigger shows I have in Tampa or St. Pete. I knew him from playing in punk bands. He was in Feral Babies and Injustice System.

    At some point, we needed someone to work the door. Maybe Andy was looking for extra work, so he did it. People get trained up. Some people are built for it and love it. Some people do it once and say, this was the worst thing I’ve ever done.

    Scott:
    I have two great guys who work doors for me, help load in, help set up the display, and help with merch. I try to give bands envelopes with set times, information about the show, and what the bar specials are. I tell them to take photos and share with the rest of the bandmates so I don’t have to explain it to every single person. They can’t say they didn’t know load-in time because I’ve sent it in email, Instagram, and in the envelope.

    Pete:
    That is the bane of my existence. It’s not even band members sometimes. It’s tour managers on bigger tours. They send a detailed advance with a lot of questions, and I fill it out and send it back. Then they come in and ask why something isn’t this way. I’m like, I told you two months ago that this isn’t the thing.

    But the tour manager is juggling advancing 30 different shows. They can’t be expected to remember everything about the policy in Tampa, Florida. Things happen.

    Scott:
    I manage WORLDSUCKS, and as I was booking their tour, some venues sent me a full Google Doc of everything they need to know. Others I’m pulling teeth to find out load-in time, who the contact person is, whether there’s a phone number in case they get a flat. Some venues are helpful, some are overly helpful, and some are not.

    Pete:
    There are definitely people you advance with who don’t respond at all.

    Scott:
    It’s crazy to me.

    So you book it, manage the rider, make sure there are runners. You’re not just booking the day. You’re outfitting the whole thing. Do you do that for every show? I mean, Will’s Pub has a door guy. You don’t have to worry about that, right?

    Pete:
    It depends on the show and the venue. Most of the venues I work with have door staff, security, and all that. I don’t have to deal with that.

    It’s more making sure, while working with the venue, that everything is set up, they know what to expect, and they know what time things are supposed to happen. If I’m not physically there, I usually have somebody who works for me there. I rarely leave it up to the venue to handle.

    Scott:
    You book 300 shows in 365 days. You were also teaching at the local college too, right?

    Pete:
    I quit about a year ago.

    Scott:
    Still, that’s a lot to balance. How do you manage that level of different activities and things you have to take care of?

    Pete:
    I’m just kind of a workaholic. As opposed to people who maybe work a job they hate and are workaholics and it kills them, I’ve turned the things I love into jobs.

    I feel like I’ve cheated at life a little bit. I’m 42, and I don’t think I’ve had to wake up before noon very often in my entire adult life, which feels like the definition of winning. I’ve turned the things I love into jobs. There are definitely days where I don’t necessarily want to be there, but I’m going to come home and look for new music.

    Scott:
    I get up every day at 5 a.m. and work on my doctoral work between 5 and 7:30. At 7:30, I take my kid to school. Then I hang out at a coffee shop and do more school work, record label work, or promotion work until 3 o’clock. Then I bring her home, and then I do things like this podcast.

    People say, isn’t that a lot to do? I just don’t watch a lot of TV. I read comic books when I go to bed to wind down, and I watch TV when I want to. But I enjoy music, going to shows, playing shows, and being part of music.

    Pete:
    I probably could use a couple more days off a month or something. Just like any job, there are days where the industry is frustrating. But this is just kind of what I do, which sounds blunt and uninteresting.

    Scott:
    But it’s not. It’s event planning on a whole different level. You’re doing massive event planning across multiple cities with bands who are basically adult middle school kids. You’re coordinating all of this and trying to get everyone to be happy and make money at it at the same time.

    Pete:
    It’s become more and more of a business for me, but there was no grand plan. I didn’t start off saying I’ll start an LLC and then whatever. It just scaled up over time.

    I remember the first time I sold out a Will’s Pub-sized venue. I was like, this is crazy. Now I’m doing 3,000 or 4,000 tickets for some things and saying, this is crazy. You get used to the economy of scale over time. There wasn’t a plan. It was just, let’s book more shows.

    Scott:
    It’s like my record label. Four records the first year, then six, then nine, then last year was 16. I didn’t plan to do 16, but I had so many records sell well in the spring that I had enough money to put out more records. Every day I just ask, what can I do better today than I did yesterday, and how can I have more fun?

    Assuming it’s mostly fun, what’s a day that was just a fucking disaster shit show? If you’re able to share, what was a moment where you thought, what the fuck just happened?

    Pete:
    I don’t have one specific example. There are all kinds of ways things don’t go well. Sometimes it’s a miscommunication. Maybe my advancing was wrong. Maybe their info was wrong. People on tour are stressed, and they come in in a shit mood because they just sat in a van for 10 hours. Sometimes you’re having a shitty day because whatever, your porch screen ripped, and you come in negative.

    I haven’t really had a show where it was just a total disaster. As I get older, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt because everyone has shitty days. I’m not saying I’m good at that, but I’m trying to be good at that.

    The thing I’m worst at is losing money. I’ve been lucky to be successful, so I should be better at being okay with that. Putting on a show and losing $3,000 is a frustrating experience. You have to learn to normalize it a little bit because it’s part of the game.

    Scott:
    Some shows you make a lot, other shows you lose. It is what it is. It’s like records. I’ll put out one record and it’ll sell out in two months. Another one, two years later, I still have half the inventory left. It just is what it is.

    Pete:
    There are shows I book where I know I’m going to lose money, or I’m 90% sure. But like putting out certain records, sometimes it’s something I want to do.

    We haven’t announced it yet, but I have a show in June at Conduit that’s a band featuring guys I’ve wanted to see my whole life and have never seen live. The price tag was higher than I wanted, but I was like, yeah, whatever. I’m not even going to argue. I’ll probably lose money, but I’m okay with it.

    Scott:
    My friend Gerry LaFemina runs Savage Mountain Punk Arts Festival in Cumberland, Maryland, and he said he started doing it because if he drove to Baltimore to see a band, he’d probably be out $200 or $300 between gas, food, beer, a hotel, and everything else. If he could bring that band from Baltimore, DC, or Richmond to his hometown and book some bands around them, then he could see them close to home. Even if it cost him $200, he had a great day.

    Pete:
    If we’re just worried about finances, as long as we at least break even, I’m stoked. Not every show is about making a bunch of money. Not everything you book is supposed to be profitable.

    Sometimes you’re helping bands build. Sometimes you’re helping a really small touring band get to the next stop. We had a show at Conduit a couple weeks ago where, based on the deal, the turnout was really low. The touring band thought the locals would bring people and they didn’t. It was a Sunday, it was raining, people still go bowling, whatever. We basically gave them all the money and ate the loss on the door person and security because the show wasn’t really about making money.

    Scott:
    I definitely do those and take gambles. I’ll do guarantees for bands and think, okay, I sweat this band, but how many other people are sweating this ’80s hardcore band from Boston? I know I am, but I’m almost 50. Am I going to get people to come out for this, or am I just doing this because I want to see them?

    Pete:
    You have to be careful because that can blind you to making poor business decisions. Sometimes you book things because you want a great show, or because it’s interesting, or because you want to see the band. But it’s a balance.

    Scott:
    Now that I’m consistently doing this in multiple venues, I’m trying to think through what I can actually do. I also don’t believe in not paying the local bands. I don’t want anyone to play for free. But I also want to make sure I can pay my door people, make sure the bands get fed, and make sure everyone is taken care of. I toured Europe, so I’m big on feeding the bands even if it’s tour pizza. I try to avoid promoter pasta.

    I want to bring bigger and bigger acts through, but I have to start with the smaller or semi-big ones and let the reputation build.

    Pete:
    The economics of the local band thing is always interesting too. I pay bands to open nationals, but there’s a pretty hard ceiling on what you’re going to make a lot of the time.

    Before a national show gets booked, we’ve already negotiated the budget for local bands. There are rare instances where someone says, we really want this band, and we want to make sure they make $1,000. That does happen. But usually the band says, we don’t know anyone in Orlando, just add two locals. They leave it up to your discretion, or they want to hear them and make a decision.

    But the money is cutting into their bonus money, so they don’t want to add a ton for it. That’s why I don’t think local shows need promoters. If you’re worried about making money, that’s your opportunity to make all the money. You shouldn’t be cutting someone else in at 15%.

    Scott:
    I’ve never actually taken money beyond what might be left over after guaranteeing what I guaranteed to the local bands and touring bands. If there’s money left over, that goes toward the advertising I did on social media or flyers. I’m sure at best I’m breaking even, and sometimes I’m not.

    Pete:
    There are tons of people who make very little to no money as promoters booking local shows. It’s not that every person booking local shows is doing a bad thing. Marshall from Montgomery Drive in Orlando, Shelby from 152 Productions, Elliot from Vacancy in Tampa, and John McHale in Miami all book tons of local shows and aren’t taking huge chunks of money. It would just burn me out quickly if I was booking all these local shows.

    Scott:
    I get that. There’s a distinction between what I’m doing and what you’re doing. That’s why I’m so fascinated by what you do. I’ve been doing local shows with small touring bands for 30 years, but it’s rare that I’ve done significantly bigger acts.

    Pete:
    It’s a niche industry. There aren’t a lot of us who do it. Across the country, there are probably a couple hundred of us, maybe. A bunch of us know each other. It’s not a secret society or anything.

    Part of it is the money thing. It’s hard to get to a point where you make a living off it, and it also involves gambling a lot. Not everyone is comfortable with that.

    Scott:
    I’m married with two kids, so I need a certain amount of security. My wife works too, but I’m part of the income drive.

    Pete:
    You also need to be able to do the right thing in certain circumstances. Maybe we could have made more money last night, but that one band came from Jacksonville, so let’s make sure we give them $200 instead of $100. You have to be able to make those decisions. It’s seeing the long term over the short term.

    Scott:
    I had a band that wound up not being able to play. They drove three hours. They came separately from their backup drummer, who showed up super late. I had to push them to last. Then they set up and the drummer asked if I had drumsticks. I said no.

    There were five bands before them, but every band’s drummer had left. I had drag queens in the basement waiting to come up and perform afterward. I didn’t know what to tell them. They had to tear down. But I still paid them. They left before I finished counting the full door, so the next day I said I had extra money for them and asked who I should Venmo or PayPal.

    They said, wow, we didn’t even play. I said, yeah, but things happen. It wasn’t even your actual drummer, and the rest of you drove here. You were on time. It’s bad enough you didn’t get to play. You should at least get your minimum amount to get back home.

    Pete:
    If someone showed up without drumsticks, I would probably lose my mind. You’re maybe a little nicer than me.

    Scott:
    I was like, I can’t believe this is happening. Who does this?

    Pete:
    I’ve definitely had people show up and ask, so do we have to bring our drums? And I’m like, yeah, what do you mean?

    Scott:
    Since I moved up here, everyone wants to backline and share, but nobody wants to bring anything. I’ll have four bands on a bill, and everyone wants to share, but no one wants to bring it.

    When I moved up here, I did a reunion show with my old band in DC. Every band was sharing two guitar cabs from one band. The first band played, then my band went on. My guitarist plugged into the cabinet, and the input jack fell through into the cab. There was no other guitar amp. We had to send someone out to go get one.

    Since then I’m adamant that we can’t just count on one band to bring two guitar cabs and a drum set. What if they get in a car accident? What if they don’t show up? What if the bass drum head breaks? We have to have backups. People think I’m insane, but I always brought my shit on tour.

    Pete:
    I get why people want to share. We’ve entertained trying to get a backline in-house, but I don’t know if it’s worth it. Most people wouldn’t use it.

    Scott:
    I have my own drum set, so I can always bring that. But I’m debating buying a 2x12 guitar cab just so I have something. I respect that bands don’t always have space and travel far, but as the person setting up the spreadsheet and trying to find out who’s bringing what, it’s frustrating.

    Pete:
    It’s oddly city-specific. If you’re playing a show in Miami, I get wanting to share gear. There’s no parking. You’re going to sit in an hour and a half of traffic going from your practice spot in Broward back down to Miami. Or if you live in Brooklyn, trying to get your drum set and full stack to the club is annoying at best.

    Scott:
    I think that’s where a lot of it comes from. I’m in the Hudson Valley near Woodstock, but I get a lot of New York City bands, so I get it. But even local bands will say they don’t want to bring their own stuff.

    Pete:
    In Orlando or Tampa, I’m like, really? It’s not that big of a deal. But there are cities where it makes sense. And people just want to share gear, which is fine. But it never works that easily.

    Scott:
    I would go on tour, and everyone would want me to share someone else’s drum kit. I was like, I have no problem setting up my drum kit and my stands outside on the sidewalk in the middle of winter in Baltimore, then carrying it in and putting it up right away. The amount of time it takes me to adjust my stands to someone else’s stands, I could have already brought my shit in and set it up.

    Pete:
    Touring stuff creates a whole other problem.

    Scott:
    In the ’90s, we didn’t have group chats on Instagram where we could talk about this stuff.

    Pete:
    Whatever everyone can work out, I think it makes sense in some instances.

    Scott:
    I’m happy to do it. I’m just trying to figure out how to manage it effectively. If that’s what this area believes in doing, I’m trying to help. That’s why I started the spreadsheet, but I don’t know that it has made it easier because people say they don’t know how to open it or put information in it. Everything I try to do to make it easier makes it harder.

    Pete:
    For me, a lot of that is organize amongst yourselves. If you want to borrow gear, then go for it.

    Sometimes local bands ask the touring national headliner if they can borrow their drums. That’s probably not going to happen. I don’t think Cannibal Corpse is going to let you borrow their drums.

    Scott:
    I let anybody use my drums anytime. It’s just a matter of not counting on one person or one van to supply all four bands with equipment.

    Pete:
    I get people wanting to minimize costs. Not everyone cares, depending on the genre and show. Some bands aren’t picky about their drum set and are willing to roll with whatever.

    Scott:
    I’m fine with most drum kits. I’ve had a couple where it was like a child’s kit or the rack tom was an eight-inch roto tom, and I’m like, this is problematic, but I’ll make it work.

    Pete:
    Make it work.

    Scott:
    Another thing that’s hard with some local bands now is in-ear systems for a 20-minute set. They might play to click tracks and need that feedback, but they don’t always have someone who knows how to run it. It’s hard to critique what bands need.

    Pete:
    It’s more that I’m voicing frustration about how to manage it more effectively. Maybe I should just say I’m not supplying a backline. If you want a backline, figure it out. But if you’re playing the show, be prepared that you may have to bring everything.

    Scott:
    This has been a real treat. Thank you, Pete, for coming on. I really enjoyed talking to you. It makes me wish we had spent more time talking when I lived in Florida.

    Pete:
    I tend to be involved but not present, if that makes any sense.

    Scott:
    I 100% get it. But you were always there, and you were always kind and respectful. I always felt like you did a really good job with what you do, so I will always remember you as a promoter. I appreciate that.

    Pete:
    The one nice thing about all of this is that there’s really no wrong way to do it. If you want to look at it as a business, you can. If you’re not interested in treating it as a business, then don’t. That has consequences, just like treating it like a business has consequences, but it’s up to everyone.

    There’s no one way you have to be involved in music. You can kind of do it however you want. There’s a lot of creativity in the idea that we’re just trying to convince people to go into a room. There are a million ways to do that, from death metal shows to drag queens to Dungeons & Dragons events to horror trivia.

    There’s really no wrong way to do it. You can be profit-driven, but you can also keep one eye on the art, or both eyes on the art, and not care about profits. It’s an interesting industry because you can do it however you want. There aren’t really rules aside from paying people what they’re owed, which is an important one.

    Scott:
    That is an important one. Spoken like a philosophy professor. That’s the point of it, right? That’s why I’ve been in this for so long. Music is the thing where I can define what I want it to be and what it means to me.

    Pete:
    I always worry a little bit when people talk to me. They might come away and think they have to treat this like a business. My daughter is in bands, and she’s 18. Everyone else in the band is 16 or 17. They’re just figuring it out. They’ll ask me stuff, and I’ll tell them there’s no wrong way for you to be in a band and do this stuff. When you get to a point where you want to treat it like a business, I’m a useful person. Before that, just do whatever you want. Play house shows. Play other shows. There’s no wrong way to do it.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. I don’t know that I’ve ever been in a band where we treated it as a business. We certainly had business aspects and wanted to not lose money when we went on tour, but it’s always hard to mix creativity and business and the different personalities in the band.

    Pete:
    It makes sense. You didn’t spend your teen years learning to play drums to be really great at Excel. Occasionally people are flabbergasted that people in bands aren’t great at business. Why would they be? That’s not what they aspired to do.

    Scott:
    You are correct. I should not be flabbergasted that a band can’t use Excel.

    Pete:
    I also worry that people look at the early DC scene or Black Flag and think, this is the way it has to be done. No, that’s the way they did it. You can take stuff from that, but don’t feel like you have to do it that way.

    Scott:
    It was also the way they did it pre-internet. I’m helping a young band from DC called 504 Plan, and I’m giving them contacts and suggestions, but I told them I’m not booking the tour for them because I need them to figure out what works for them. They’re 18 years old going on their first tour, and there’s something special about figuring out how to do it. I’ll mentor them and help, but I don’t want to do it for them.

    Pete:
    That’s what we just had with a band called Sunny Mondays. Paya, who plays drums for Kaonashi, hit me up about them. They were trying to do a Southeast run, and he put them in a chat with me. He said, Pete’s the Florida guy. Hit him up. I worked with Marshall from Montgomery Drive and cobbled together an Orlando show. Paya helped open the door, but he wasn’t doing it for them.

    Scott:
    I give people contacts and suggestions. I tell them to communicate. I help them draft their message. Savannah, who volunteers with me, helped too. We told them to make sure they mention they’re under 21 because if they’re playing certain shows, the venue needs to know that. You don’t want to drive all that way and find out you can’t even get in the door. You have to be upfront about that.

    Pete:
    Sometimes people hit up Endoxa or Conduit and say, hey, we’re a shoegaze band from Poughkeepsie and want to play a show with you. I’m like, okay, what do you want me to do with this information? You didn’t send me links to your music. You didn’t tell me whether there’s a timeframe you’re trying to come down. Maybe people are scattershotting emails, or maybe they just don’t know.

    Scott:
    I get that too. Be specific. If I tell someone I do Sunday matinees and have one coming up in August, and then they tell me they can’t do Sundays, maybe they should have put that in their message.

    Pete:
    Sometimes it’s vague, and I don’t want to be unhelpful, but I’m like, what are we doing here? Or someone sees I’m booking Metallica and says they should open that. I don’t know you. This is a weird way to meet for the first time and ask me to put you on a huge show.

    Scott:
    I keep a spreadsheet of the bands that follow me or I follow on Instagram. Once every other month or so, I export it out because there’s no way to search through things. When people email me, I keep a spreadsheet. If I’m doing a show, I can filter and find local bands. But that’s also a lot of work for me.

    If you’re persistent and tell me exactly what dates you need, I might be able to help you better.

    Pete:
    If you’re from out of town and want to play Conduit, the best way is to trade shows with other bands. If you’re from Tampa or Orlando and want to play nationals, that’s fine too. But I’m a firm believer in picking the right show for the right bands. I’ll listen to the music and pay attention, but it may take a minute until I find what I think is a good fit.

    There are also tours that don’t want local openers. I don’t get to make a unilateral decision about every band that plays every show. Local bands don’t always know that, and I get that too. There are times where I get to do whatever I want, but not as often. The bigger the show, the less likely that is.

    Scott:
    I have one coming up where I could not put any local opener on. Then another where the booking agent wanted me to send six picks, and the band picked two. That was fine.

    Pete:
    That makes sense. There are promoters who will just put whoever they think draws the most people, whether it makes sense or not. Suddenly you have a pop punk band opening for Deicide, and you’re like, what the fuck is this? I get quality control from agents, managers, and bands. There’s nothing wrong with that. But again, it’s another layer. It’s not me sitting on a throne making every decision.

    Scott:
    Whenever I booked tours, going through another band was the easiest way. I’d offer to do them a show in my area. When I was in DC and Baltimore, that’s how I started booking shows. If you give me a show in Philadelphia, I’ll get you a show in Baltimore.

    Pete:
    As a venue owner and promoter, if you’re coming from Jacksonville and want to play Orlando, I get it, and I’d love to have you in the room. But I’m not going to build a five-band show for you. The last thing you want is to get booked at a venue on a Friday or Saturday, bring no one because you’re from out of town, cost the bar a night, and have no one enjoy it. No one likes playing in front of three people.

    You do want to play as much as you can. Playing live is fun. But make sure you connect the dots a little bit before diving in.

    Scott:
    I’ve had venues ask me to find local support for a touring band I’m booking. I’ll ask other bands or start finding people. I’ve also seen bands posting on Facebook like, “We have a show in Toledo. Any local punk bands want to join us? We’re from Oregon.” And I’m like, that’s sad. Why isn’t someone helping them?

    Pete:
    As the venue, I’ll say, I don’t know who you are, and I get that you’re from Fort Myers, but if you can find a couple locals to play, I’m down. But I don’t have time to build the whole thing.

    You could be in the world’s best shoegaze band, but if I put up a big poster that says shoegaze, we’re not going to sell the show. It doesn’t matter. I can do my best job as a promoter, but it’s not going to do much.

    Scott:
    Do you put Endoxa Booking on all your flyers?

    Pete:
    No, mainly out of laziness. I’m trying to edit a flyer, and the last thing I care about is whether my name is on it.

    Scott:
    I put my name on mine, and my hope is that even if people don’t know the bands, they might think, well, Scott puts on good shows, so odds are it’s going to be good.

    Pete:
    That’s a mistake on my part. A lot of other promoters are better at branding. I tend to think the shows speak for themselves.

    I always think the promoter doesn’t really matter. People aren’t like, shit, Pete’s booking this one? That’s going to run on time. I’ll pay $30 now. That’s not how people make decisions.

    I can ask who was the really big promoter 40 years ago in Orlando, and almost no one can tell me. It doesn’t matter in that sense.

    Scott:
    I can remember Craig Boarman, who later bought the Ottobar in Baltimore. I loved Craig. He always did an outstanding job.

    Pete:
    You know that because you’ve been in bands a long time and you’re part of the industry. The average concertgoer doesn’t care if I booked the show or not.

    Scott:
    Fair enough. Maybe the fact that I tell everyone I put the punk in punctuality and that my shows run on time doesn’t matter to anybody.

    Pete:
    Some OCD punk guy might be very excited. But some promoters get in their head that what they are doing and that they are doing it is more important than the fact that the show is happening. I think that’s a little silly.

    People go to things they like. If I book Carcass one year and The Social books it the next, people aren’t going to say they’re not going. That would be a ridiculous way to go to concerts.

    Scott:
    I get that. People don’t go to Scott’s shows. They go to see bands they like.

    Pete:
    Exactly. That’s what makes promotion and marketing hard. I can’t convince you to go to something you don’t care about.

    Booking and promoting YouTubers or podcasts is challenging. You announce it, go on sale, sell a bunch of tickets, and then it dies. I can’t convince someone to spend $30 on a ticket to a podcast they’ve never listened to about golf.

    Same thing with Fred Armisen. I have two shows back to back with him tomorrow, and they’re sold out. But if you don’t know him from SNL or Portlandia, you’re not going to spend $45 on a ticket because he does comedy.

    Scott:
    I went to see a podcast in Albany because my buddy Jacob Danielsen-Moore wrote songs for the soundtrack. He said he’d be there performing live, so I went.

    Pete:
    That’s how it works. With newer media, it’s hard to promote. If you’re going to see Jake Paul or whoever’s promoting boxing, you’re not going because you suddenly realized you like boxing. You’re going because you like that guy.

    Scott:
    At a national level, your bills probably all make sense. You’re not going to have a pop punk band opening for Deicide. I’m pretty big on trying to diversify my bills. I don’t want all tough-guy hardcore or all Ramonescore. I’ll throw in a ska band and a crust punk band and mix it up so it all fits the punk rock world, but with diversity within that world.

    Pete:
    I would love that. The South Florida scene I came from had mixed bills with different kinds of bands because there weren’t a bunch of death metal bands from towns near Okeechobee. We played really diverse bills, which was great.

    The problem now is that even if I want to do that, people will say, oh, it’s the metal band? Cool, I’m going to stand outside for this set and then come back. I’d love if people were really interested and wanted to see every band because it’s different, but that’s not how people consume music right now.

    Scott:
    If I put a ska band on a hardcore show, are the hardcore kids going to step outside during the ska band? And if there’s another hardcore band after them, is that enough to make them stick around?

    Pete:
    Or what does that do for the ska band? They played in front of 100 people who didn’t care, half of whom stood outside while the other half stared at them glassy-eyed.

    Scott:
    At the same time, I’m vending at Not Crodon Fest, which is three days of ska. I’m really excited for it, but it’s still three days of ska.

    Pete:
    As much as I’m a metal guy, three days of metal at festivals is a lot.

    Scott:
    There are variations within metal: power metal, thrash metal, death metal. But it’s still metal.

    Pete:
    I think diversity is not valued at the moment. These things come in waves.

    Scott:
    I’m hoping that by doing it, maybe it becomes valued because people weren’t doing it locally when I moved here.

    Do you know Drug Church?

    Pete:
    Yeah.

    Scott:
    One of the first shows I went to up here was Drug Church in Albany. They had an emo pop band, a female-fronted metal band called Halo Bite, and a youth crew band. It was really diverse.

    During their set, they stopped and reminded everyone that people were from different scenes and dance a little differently. Some people aren’t into crowd killing. Everyone had to respect the fact that this wasn’t one type of genre show and find a way to move the way they wanted while respecting others.

    Pete:
    That’s pretty cool. I haven’t seen that kind of public conversation before. Drug Church guys are great though.

    Scott:
    They were great. They even asked the stage divers to pace it out. At one point, I had to get away from being close because I had about 10 people land on my head in a minute. I was a stage diver as a kid, I get it, but I couldn’t even watch the show because every time I looked up, someone was slamming me in the face.

    The band was like, guys, can we pace out the stage diving a little bit? Pay attention to how many people are up here. People are moving away and giving you no place to land because they don’t want to catch you.

    Pete:
    It’s good that bands pay attention to that. A lot of times people will listen to them, and they won’t listen to the venue owner.

    Scott:
    When I was a kid, if it said no stage diving, I took that as a challenge to get on stage and jump.

    Pete:
    For the most part, at Conduit, if we say no stage diving and people do it a little bit, security will soft-touch it and say, hey, maybe don’t do that again. We don’t kick people out for it. It’s not personal. It’s a safety thing, both for insurance liability and for the fact that for some reason it’s always the 250-pound guy jumping on the 100-pound girl.

    Scott:
    When I was a stage diver, I was a 140-pound kid. Now I’m a 250-pound adult man. No one wants me landing on them.

    Pete:
    You want people to get rowdy. If I book a hardcore band or deathcore band, it would be ridiculous to say no moshing. You booked the show. There’s a level of that you have to accept. But maybe crowd killing people you don’t know is not the smartest idea in the world. You don’t know who that person is or who you’re hitting in the face.

    Scott:
    I don’t have an inherent problem with crowd killing. It only gets problematic if the venue is so small that I can’t back away far enough to keep my beer from getting kicked out of my hand.

    Pete:
    I had someone at a show years ago who was in the very front of the stage getting hit at a hardcore show. He came up and said he was getting hit. I said, just move. He said he shouldn’t have to move. I said, you don’t have to move, but you’re going to get punched in the head if you stand there. I’ve been at the show all night, and no one hit me.

    Scott:
    If I move as far back as I can and I’m still getting hit, then I have a problem.

    Pete:
    Except for really small venues, that’s pretty few and far between. At least in Florida, even at rowdier shows, if you’re clearly not in the pit, people aren’t going to go out of their way to mess with you.

    Scott:
    I agree. At VFW shows here, there might be a couple crowd-killing people, but they’re very conscious. There’s a video camera person and photographer, and you never see them get hit. They’re doing their moves, but they’re conscious of their five-foot radius.

    Pete:
    That allows everyone to enjoy the show but still get everything out and do what they’re going to do. It’s best to let that stuff police itself when you can. As a venue, you try to be hands-off.

    Scott:
    I don’t think I’ve ever passed a rule that says don’t do this or don’t do that. It’s just, let’s all be safe and respectful.

    Pete:
    Do whatever you want. Just maybe don’t give that 17-year-old a concussion.

    Scott:
    This has been a real treat. Thank you, Pete, for coming on. I really enjoyed talking to you. It makes me wish we had spent more time talking when I lived in Florida.

    Pete:
    I tend to be involved but not present, if that makes any sense.

    Scott:
    I 100% get it. You were always there, and you were always kind and respectful. I always felt like you did a really good job with what you do. I will always remember you as a promoter, and I appreciate that.

    Thank you everyone for checking this out, watching on YouTube, or listening on whatever audio thing you use. I appreciate it. I’ll see you next episode. Thanks again, Pete.

    Pete:
    Thanks, man.

  • Episode 16: Jonathan Kent of This Is Just a Record Label and This Is Just a Phase

    Scott:
    Hey, everybody. Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: show promoters, engineers, record labels, zine writers, photographers, graphic artists, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label committed to documenting live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal on short-run vinyl.

    After three decades of playing in bands and booking shows, I've learned just how crucial the behind-the-scenes folks are to keeping the scene alive. Today I'm joined by someone who's played a major role in that work, Jonathan Kent, the brain behind This Is Just a Record Label and host of This Is Just a Phase podcast.

    Whether he's releasing music for bands that deserve to be heard or digging deep with artists about their journey and sound, Jonathan is all about lifting up the underground. He's a passionate scene music nerd, podcast host, and all-around DIY lifer, and I'm stoked to talk shop, community, and the messy magic of running a label in today's world.

    Let's get into it.

    Jonathan:
    Thank you so much, Scott, for that amazing intro, man. I wouldn’t say I’m a man of many hats. I’m just a jerk-off of all trades.

    Scott:
    Which reminds me, that’s a great Lunachicks song, by the way. There was a period in the ’90s where I couldn’t go to a show in DC where they weren’t opening, whether it was Rancid, the Ramones, NOFX, or whoever came through. It was almost always the Lunachicks, and I did not complain.

    Jonathan:
    I’ve never seen them live, but my buddy had one of those Go-Kart comps, and I remember hearing “Don’t Want You,” and then “Jerk of All Trades,” and I was just like, listen, I love a good female-fronted band.

    Scott:
    You and me both. As much as we talk about punk being inclusive, there’s always been a shortage of female-fronted bands, and that bums me out. When I was younger, you’d at least usually see one female-fronted band on a roster.

    Jonathan:
    I think it’s either coming back, or I’m just trying really hard to make it happen.

    Scott:
    I do monthly shows at Snapper Magee’s in Kingston, and I would say every show has at least some female representation, usually a singer. I also try to have some form of people of color represented, whether Black, Asian, or otherwise, and gender-fluid people as well. I do make a conscious effort to do that.

    I’ve spent 30 years listening to white men yell at me. I’m interested in hearing what other people have to say, and their perspectives are different.

    Jonathan:
    I totally agree. You look back and there was Nirvana and Green Day, but there was also Veruca Salt and The Muffs. There was always that contrast, but it seemed tempered by the amount that was allowed.

    Scott:
    I just finished reading Sellout, the book about punk bands that went to major labels. In the Brody Dalle section on The Distillers, they talked about how when they had their album with the fang cover, radio stations basically said they already had two female vocalists on rock radio and they couldn’t have a third.

    Jonathan:
    Isn’t it amazing when you learn the tropes of the major label machine? The older we get and the more we talk to people who have been on major labels or distributed by major labels, you hear these stories you never would have thought of. There could only be two female-fronted bands on rock radio? What a ridiculous thing.

    Scott:
    It’s so crazy. But to be fair, even though you and I enjoy female vocalists whether they’re singing melodically or screaming, there are people who really don’t like it. I don’t know if they don’t like the sound or if there is some hidden misogyny inside of them.

    Jonathan:
    I think it’s the latter. You look back to the ’60s with The Chantels, the ’70s with Fleetwood Mac, Janis Joplin, Stevie Nicks. Come on.

    Scott:
    I try to be open-minded and say maybe there’s something I’m not getting. I have this whole thing on my website about our values and our space, and part of that is being open to learning, meeting people where they are, and giving people a chance to grow. But sometimes it’s hard, because why would you not like female-fronted bands?

    At the last show I did, we had a drag queen performance after the bands. Somebody yelled a horrible slur, and my friend Kev, who plays guitar in Negative Raxxx, immediately went up to the guy and said, no, that is unacceptable here. You will walk up to each of those drag queens and apologize right now.

    The guy did it. He said, “I’m sorry. I have a lot I haven’t learned yet.” Two of the drag queens accepted the apology. One said, “No thank you, go away.” And that’s valid too.

    Jonathan:
    That’s cool that you’re doing things like that. I’m in the Youngstown, Ohio area, and I’ve noticed more drag shows and more inclusive events even in small towns. The Rust Belt is weird. People think of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Youngstown, or Allentown and assume the whole scene must be liberal, but there are a lot of hillbillies in Ohio and Pennsylvania too.

    Scott:
    It’s similar to where I live now in the Hudson Valley. I’m right near Woodstock, so there’s a huge amount of liberalism and progressivism, but there’s also a strong MAGA strain dotted throughout the area. You can’t make assumptions.

    When I lived in Florida, Orlando was very gay-positive. I used to go to Hamburger Mary’s Broadway drag brunch almost every Sunday. My kids and my parents in their 70s would go, and we’d watch wonderful performers sing Broadway songs while we ate breakfast and drank Bloody Marys. It was safe, clean, fabulous, and none of the innuendo felt inappropriate for my children.

    And now suddenly drag is being banned in places. I’m like, what world did I live in where this is suddenly not okay?

    Jonathan:
    A couple years ago, my wife took our youngest to the Pride parade. My sister-in-law is gay. I have a gay cousin. We’re very supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. She came back and said there was still a lot of resistance, and it wasn’t only adults. Their children were resistant too. They’re passing it on.

    As much as we’re trying to be inclusive and show our children that everybody should be treated the same, there are still people in 2025 who don’t get it or don’t want to accept it.

    Scott:
    On one level, it’s certainly an improvement over what I grew up with in the ’80s and ’90s. On the other hand, I’m a political science major getting my PhD in social studies, focusing on society and equity. I’ve watched things like the Trump administration take away the Q and the T from the Stonewall monument, trying to erase queer and transgender people from history.

    Even teaching at a Catholic school in Florida, I taught that LGBTQ people have been part of history since the dawn of time. It’s not something new. People are now allowed to be themselves in ways they weren’t before. They’re no longer pushed into the shadows.

    Jonathan:
    I look at my children’s generation, Gen Z or whatever they’re called, and they really aren’t letting people get away with shit. They own their mental health. They own who they are as individuals. They don’t care if you like it or not. They’re becoming politically involved and tied to this social awakening.

    Scott:
    I would just call it treating people with kindness and love. That’s a thing I always wanted as a punk rocker. People would judge me because I had the blue mohawk and the leather jacket and looked a little scary, but I always thought if someone got to know me, they would know I was kind. That’s how the world should be.

    At least in the world my kids live in, there seems to be less judgment. But as a former teacher, I can tell you there are still people who fit that 1980s “cool kids versus freaks” stereotype.

    Jonathan:
    Yeah, the freaks versus the normals. And I hope we’ve moved past that dichotomy. Movies like Revenge of the Nerds are in very poor taste nowadays. It bothers me how much I watched that as a kid. What messages were we sending boys in the ’80s?

    Scott:
    I’m not sure how I turned out not to be a creep. I grew up in DC, and I’m obviously a big Fugazi fan. Even on their first album, they had “Suggestion.” They’ve been criticized for using male voices to personify female concerns, but that song always spoke to me.

    Then there was Propagandhi. I was one of those kids who read the liner notes and saw they quoted a book called Refusing to Be a Man about how gender is a house of cards. I was like, huh, I’m going to read that. I started realizing I could be masculine even though I don’t like cars or tools. My masculinity is not wrapped in American cultural ideas of manhood.

    Jonathan:
    Same. I played basketball and football growing up. My dad was big on keeping me active, but he also showed me music and art. Am I a masculine man? Yeah. Do I have non-masculine qualities? Sure. I like rom-coms. I like watching The Notebook and having a good cry.

    Scott:
    It’s modern conceptions of American masculinity. It’s a social construct. As a history teacher, I’d have students read letters written by historical figures, and sometimes men expressed affection in ways that would now be coded differently. Why can’t we say those things? Why does it have to be “bro, dude, good to see you man”?

    Jonathan:
    Punk gave me space for that. You were allowed to be weird and thoughtful and still be part of something.

    Scott:
    Exactly.

    And one thing I’ve learned is always go inside and watch every band. Always. You never know. I’ve seen bands early on, hung out with people before they broke, and then two months later their album is off and running.

    There’s a New York band called Car Bomb Parade. I’ve seen them a bunch of times at VFW hall shows and hung out with them. They’re crazy nice guys. I saw they posted that they were being signed to Epitaph, and I was like, fuck yeah. A real hardcore punk band. I didn’t even know Epitaph signed bands that sound like this anymore. I’m so excited for them.

    Jonathan:
    That’s great when you see people finally get their due. You get into punk rock knowing you’re not really going to be successful. You’re going to get in a van with your friends, travel the country, eat bologna sandwiches, get free pizza, or get the promoter pasta at every show.

    Scott:
    I listened to the episode where you guys talked about promoter pasta. That’s why I brought it up.

    Jonathan:
    When you see a band break, it’s like one for us. One for the underdogs. Go be all that you can be. Not in the army, but you know what I mean. Bands like The Menzingers or Paint It Black put in the work and finally got attention. It wasn’t just a lucky fast break.

    Scott:
    Okay, we need to shift. We have not talked about you at all. We’ve just done a general punk rock conversation like we’re hanging out at a bar, which is great, but I want to talk about you. Would you like to start with your podcast or your record label?

    Jonathan:
    Honestly, the last several months, the resurgence of the podcast has been where my focus is. I took a little bit of a break from the label. We do have releases coming out, but my main goal has been getting the podcast back out there because it had been six or seven months where I hadn’t done anything, and I was itching to get back.

    Scott:
    You were pretty consistent before. I would say monthly or biweekly when you were on Spotify, and sometimes even weekly.

    Jonathan:
    Sometimes I would put out episodes fast, yeah.

    Scott:
    So what made you switch from Spotify to YouTube? I’m doing both. I actually do better on YouTube than I do on Spotify, so I’m not even sure why I keep sticking with Spotify or Pocket Casts and all the audio platforms.

    Jonathan:
    I originally started podcasting because my buddy Sam had a friend who was doing it, and he mentioned an app called Anchor. Anchor had a distribution deal with Spotify, but you could still cross-post to Apple, Google, Breaker, and everything else.

    I started doing that, but then Anchor changed. Spotify took it over, and I noticed Spotify was taking episodes down and saying I was violating copyright. But I was using bands’ music with their permission. I was like, fuck it. I’m not going to cross-platform anymore. I’ll take it directly to Spotify.

    Then Spotify changed platforms again, and it wasn’t as easy to use on my phone. It looked like they wanted me to record one chunk, and it was hard to edit. I didn’t want to go through it anymore.

    So I put it on hold and decided when I came back, I’d do everything on YouTube and make it video. I got Zoom. Then Sam came to me and said he could help take the load off by doing the editing for the videos. I said, let’s do it. The viewership is right on par with what I was doing on Spotify, and people seem to enjoy it.

    Scott:
    Trev from Struggling Artist produces mine. When I did my first podcast, On Stage Banter, I used Zoom. That podcast died for at least two critical reasons. One, I couldn’t maintain consistency. Two, it was all comedy-based, so I had to constantly write skits.

    If I couldn’t come up with a new skit, then maybe the band would find it funny once, but after the same skit three times, I was bored. I had a hard time maintaining enthusiasm. It existed in the time it did, and then it was time to end it.

    When I started this podcast, I still wanted to make a podcast, but I wanted to go beyond just interviewing bands. I wanted it to be good. Trev told me not to use Zoom and to use Riverside. Now Riverside records it, and I upload it through Spotify for Creators and YouTube. I like it because I can edit the transcripts more easily, or really Trev does, because he’s better at it than I am.

    Jonathan:
    Sam is my editor guy. After three and a half years and 102 episodes, I was burned out. I had put so much effort and time into those episodes. I would do an interview on a Monday and have the episode out by Thursday. I did that for three and a half years.

    Scott:
    That is an insane schedule. I couldn’t do that. I recorded 10 to 12 episodes over winter break, and I’m releasing them biweekly so I have time to keep recording more. We’re recording this at the beginning of April, and it probably won’t come out until July.

    Jonathan:
    I better let you know what I’m doing four months from now.

    Scott:
    If something important changes, I can always record a quick update and cut it in. But I can’t commit to doing it more often than biweekly. Between playing music, running the label, being a show promoter, being a dad with two kids, getting my PhD, and working, biweekly is what everyone gets.

    Jonathan:
    That’s what we decided too. And we talked about doing different things. Maybe watching a video and reacting to it, or doing scene reports, or talking about whether an old album still holds up. Throw an old ’90s record on and see if it still holds up 30 years later.

    Scott:
    That was part of my Stage Banter podcast. On the first episode, I played Avail breaking up a fight on a live record and Off With Their Heads breaking up a fight on a live record. Who broke up the fight better?

    But that takes a lot more work. No offense, this is very easy. I know you. I re-listened to some of your podcasts. That’s fun to do. I’m just driving, and I drive three hours a day anyway. This is a fluid conversation. I don’t feel like I need questions for you.

    Jonathan:
    When I first started the podcast, it was really rigid. I had never done anything like it before. I had played in bands 20 years earlier, and I was lucky enough to have friends who got popular, so I could talk to them. As I went on, it got looser.

    I don’t call my podcast an interview podcast. I call it an interview and conversation podcast. People have said, “John, I love listening to your podcast because it sounds like I’m eavesdropping on somebody’s phone call.” That’s what I wanted. I’m interviewing friends of mine. It’s not some cold call.

    Scott:
    That’s what I like. It feels like hanging around talking over beer or coffee.

    Do you ever repeat guests? You’ve done so many episodes. Do you come back and say, where are you at now?

    Jonathan:
    On the old podcast, I had a joke about the Five-Timers Club. Jay Prozac from The Prozacs is a five-timer. Mick Spoon from The Westies Creatures is a five-timer. Zack Buzzkill from The Radio Buzzkills, I think he’s a five-timer. Athena Athens from Little Lost Girl, I think she’s a five-timer. There are other people who have done two or three episodes too.

    Scott:
    I feel like I see Mike from On the Cinder on every podcast I go to.

    Jonathan:
    He’s a good dude, man. I love them.

    I love your new podcast. I listened to your episode with Don from Inner Ear, and I started listening to the follow-up episode too. I really like it.

    Scott:
    Thank you. I appreciate that. I like that it goes outside the bounds. I’m actually learning a lot. In episode two, I talked to Tony Budd, and he goes over how I should be sound checking my drums. I’ve been doing this 30 years, and no one ever suggested what I should actually do to sound check my drums. How the fuck did no one ever tell me this?

    Jonathan:
    I loved how Don busted your balls about not knowing tech talk because you’re a drummer. He was like, “That’s it, I’m ending the interview right now.”

    Scott:
    The last one I recorded was with Gerry LaFemina, who runs a poetry festival. At one point he said, “Have you ever heard of a festival being funded by local or state government?” I said, “Just Punk Island that I can think of.” Someone posted on Facebook quoting Gerry and then said, “Skipping no beat, Scott.” I didn’t mean it as an insult, but I guess it was funny.

    I only knew that because I had just interviewed Mike Dietz and Phil Bartsch from RBNX, who run the Lunchbox Stage at Punk Island. They explained how Make Music New York is one of the major funders that helps Punk Island be a free DIY festival.

    Jonathan:
    That’s what’s amazing. There are so many people doing amazing things besides the bands.

    Scott:
    That’s the whole point of this podcast.

    Jonathan:
    I tried to branch out with mine too. Early on, I had the host of Talking Records Podcast. Then I started reaching out to record label owners like Athena, Amy, and Brie from Allegedly Records. I also had people from the art scene in Cleveland. It breaks up the normal band banter.

    When you interview someone in a band, you can get the same kind of stories. But when you get someone who promotes shows, does art, does installations, runs a label, or like Athena doing eight-tracks, someone will find that riveting. Funny enough, Athena’s episode is my biggest played episode ever. She promoted the shit out of it.

    Scott:
    That’s the key. I can only promote an episode so much. Some bands or guests don’t promote stuff they’re on, and the numbers reflect that. Whether it’s a podcast or me putting out a record, it’s the same thing.

    I can put out a record and post every other day about it and invite the band as a collaborator. Often they’ll accept, but they’re doing nothing else. Same with the podcast. My most popular podcast was the Don episode, and now it’s the Foreign Dissent episode with Craig Mazer because Craig shared it nonstop. Instagram, Facebook, Fest groups. He asked me for different clips so he could share them separately.

    He told me he’s usually scared of the limelight and nervous about these things, but he was proud of how it came out. He felt like it really captured who he was. And I was like, thank you, and please share it because I wish everyone did that.

    Jonathan:
    People who don’t normally get asked to do podcasts are often the ones who will flood everything because they don’t get that opportunity very often. Those are my bigger played episodes.

    Scott:
    I put links to podcasts I’ve been on in the About section of my label website. If you want to know who I am, listen to this. It matters.

    It’s the same with music. Some bands on my label really push their releases, and some don’t. I tell bands all the time, if you don’t promote, you’re not going to sell. It’s not all about playing shows. Maybe you move 10 units at a show, but working with me gives you the chance to move more than that if you promote online.

    Jonathan:
    Some bands do it for the first week and then never mention the album again. You can do a one-month anniversary post. There are so many things you can do to say, hey, we still have this record out.

    Scott:
    Sometimes I wonder if bands think, since they have 25 or 50 copies themselves, they don’t need to promote my website. They’ll just sell theirs at shows. But I sell to people all over the country, and unless they’re touring, they’re not doing that.

    Jonathan:
    That’s why I couldn’t get into bed with vinyl the way you did. I can’t project that I’m going to sell 100 records by a band that isn’t touring. If they’re not going to California next week, I can’t get in bed with vinyl.

    With my label, some records sell and some don’t. The ones that sell help pay off the ones that don’t. Raging Nathans, you know that’s going to sell because that band constantly tours.

    When Mike and I started the label, we were just going to be a local label. We were going to put out local music. We put the comp out and then two local bands. Then Jay from The Prozacs asked if we wanted to put out early demos. I wasn’t saying no to Jay Prozac. Once that happened, we became more of a punk label instead of just a local label.

    Scott:
    I don’t buy CDs because I don’t have a CD player.

    Jonathan:
    Thanks, Scott.

    Scott:
    I do buy vinyl, but even then, when I go to record stores, I usually go to the used bin. If I go to the named bins, there are too many things I don’t have. I don’t have every 7 Seconds album or every Dinosaur Jr. record. Where am I going to drop my $24? Or I can go to the used bin, find three records I like for $15 each, and pick two of those for the price of one new record.

    Jonathan:
    I can’t do Discogs the way some people do. If I won the lottery, my wife and I would be broke because I’d spend it all on vinyl I don’t have or vinyl I had that got stolen. Get me into a record store, and I’d buy the fucking record store.

    Scott:
    You have to have limits. I don’t buy super rare expensive ones. During the pandemic, when everyone was bored and had extra money, I went Discogs crazy trying to solve my CD problem. I looked for records by bands from the ’90s and early 2000s that I only had on CD. I bought a lot of 7-inches. But I’m talking $8 plus shipping, not $300 first pressings.

    I don’t collect like that. I don’t buy three versions of the same record. I literally buy them to play. I often buy the cheaper black vinyl version and save five bucks.

    Jonathan:
    Same. I don’t care that much about color variants. If someone asks what color I want and they have blue, red, and yellow, I’ll pick one, but to me it doesn’t matter. Does the record play? That’s what I care about.

    Scott:
    I admit there is an aesthetic joy when I open a cool-looking record, but I’m not disappointed if it’s black. As someone who runs a record label, I know how much more expensive those extras are. Translucent is generally cheaper than opaque. Splatter and weird designs get expensive fast. If I were pressing 1,000 copies, sure. But I’m pressing 100 to 200, and those costs matter.

    Jonathan:
    That’s another reason I didn’t get into vinyl. If I put $1,800 into 100 copies, how quickly am I going to make that money back? Am I going to make it back? I can order 100 CDs for less than $2 each. If I don’t make my money back, I only spent $200 instead of $1,800.

    Scott:
    I get that. I send proposals to bands, and whatever I send out is what it’s going to be. But it might take eight months for the record to finally come out, and now my prices are different. I can’t go back to the band and say, hey, since eight months ago my price point changed. I don’t want to bait and switch a band.

    When I started, I did four records, then six, then nine, then last year I did 16, which was stupid ridiculous. At that point, I was putting real money on the table and had to ask for more band buy-in. I feel like I’ve built enough of a reputation for quality work that if a band says they can’t do the buy-in, that’s fine. I’ll move on.

    Jonathan:
    That makes sense.

    Scott:
    I had my CD book stolen once. It was probably around 1997. I had one of those big books of CDs that slid under the backseat. I went out to my car and thought, I don’t remember leaving my window open. Then I saw glass and realized the CD player was ripped out. The CD book was gone. It was like 100 CDs. My soul left my body.

    Jonathan:
    I would have had every CD I ever bought if they hadn’t been stolen over the years. I’d probably have 5,000 CDs and 3,000 vinyl. People wonder why I’m broke. It’s because I spent all my money on this stuff.

    Scott:
    I have records, books, and comic books. My old house in Florida had wall-to-wall bookshelves. Books are really heavy when you move. Then I have giant long white boxes of comic books. If I didn’t have those things, I’d barely have anything.

    Jonathan:
    Same. I have DVDs, books, records, CDs, VHS tapes, all of it. Go in our basement and there’s shit everywhere.

    Scott:
    I was a teacher, so I also have my entire classroom. I probably have 80 mugs from students, all my resource books, all the costumes I wore when I taught social studies. At some point I’ll have to go through the mugs and ask if I can remember which kid gave it to me. If I can, I keep it. If I can’t, it has to move on.

    Jonathan:
    You’re in upstate New York now, and you’re back in school, right? You’re not teaching anymore?

    Scott:
    Right. I’m at UAlbany on a full-time scholarship and stipend. I work as a graduate assistant. I grade and assess work, help teach classes, work in the admissions office of the PIE Center, and do research. I also work for the graduate school. So I have three bosses, but I’m not in a K–12 classroom anymore other than when I’m teaching graduate students who are future teachers.

    Jonathan:
    That’s awesome. It’s really cool that you’re able to further your education and still work.

    Scott:
    The benefit is that it’s flexible, but that’s also what makes it hard. I can work all the time. I usually get up at five in the morning, and most mornings I have to leave at 7:30 to take my kid to school. So from five to seven, I do schoolwork. Then I eat, shower, drive my kid, sit down somewhere, and do schoolwork until I pick my kid up at three.

    If I need to do a podcast, I can fit it in, but it’s easier if I can do it from home. You can’t really do a podcast at Starbucks.

    Jonathan:
    That makes sense.

    Scott:
    I’m also working on getting records into distribution. Now I have to replace them all in sealable bags, print barcodes, and put those on. It’s a whole process. On one level it’s beneficial because it gets the record out there, which is great for the bands and the label. But I know I’m going to take a hit on how much I make per record because the distributor and the record store both get paid. I’ll probably make below my unit cost, but it could be beneficial five years from now versus right now.

    As I start working with bigger bands like Middle-Aged Queers, Raging Nathans, and Rebelmatic, those record sales can help fund the smaller ones.

    Jonathan:
    That’s why we do comps. We get bigger names on the comp to help bands on the label get more attention. A band like The Lousekateers or The Downstrokes can help smaller bands find their footing too.

    Scott:
    I’m starting to work more with other labels and co-releasing records. Dave Strong has a live album, and I think I found two labels to co-release it with me.

    The difficulty with my niche is that since I’m just a live record label, I can’t do what Adam at Say-10 or Andy at Sell the Heart do, where they have four or five labels releasing something. Not everybody wants to do a live album, and I don’t really put my name on stuff that’s not live. It limits who will collaborate with me, but I don’t want to move away from that niche because it separates me from other labels.

    Jonathan:
    The cool thing about Dave Strong is that I don’t care who he puts stuff out with. I was lucky enough to put out his debut on CD and cassette. Phameless put the vinyl out. Now he’s done stuff with Critical Mass, and he’s doing stuff with you. He’s out there getting his name out. Sign to every label you want, dude. Just give me some songs.

    Scott:
    He’s persistent. If someone is that persistent getting me to work with them, then I know they’re going to be persistent promoting the record when it comes out.

    Jonathan:
    Exactly.

    Scott:
    This has been such a good conversation. It makes me wish we lived closer so we could hang out in person on a regular basis. Honestly, why don’t people do this more even when it’s not a podcast? Why aren’t you, Mike, Trev, and I just getting together once a month on a Zoom call with beer or coffee and just talking?

    Jonathan:
    Send me an invite, fucker. I’ll be on there.

    Scott:
    Have we ever had a Scene to Shining Scene group chat where we all just hang out?

    Jonathan:
    No, but we should. I talk to Jay Prozac all the time, and I wish I could record those conversations because we’ll talk for hours about nonsense, and somebody would sit in their living room and think it was the most fantastic thing they ever heard.

    Scott:
    This is the second or third time you and I have talked, but I feel like I’ve been talking to you for 20 years. I can just hang out with you and shoot the shit.

    Jonathan:
    That’s one great thing that came out of the pandemic. I met so many fantastic people through buying records, being in the same groups, or being in punk communities. That’s how I met Spoonie, Athena, Adam, Gary, and you. Then Amy and Brie started Scene to Shining Scene, and all those labels got together to support one another.

    That’s one of the biggest things that came out of the pandemic: the amazing people I’ve been able to meet, who I feel like I’ve known forever.

    Scott:
    When people complain that kids are on their phones too much, I think about my 14-year-old FaceTiming her friends in Florida while they play games, play flute, and talk. She may be doing it on a phone or tablet, but she is heavily engaged in social bonding. When I was a kid looking at a screen, I was passively watching TV or playing Excitebike on Nintendo.

    Jonathan:
    My kids are heavily into video games. They’re on Discord playing with their friends and talking shit to one another. If we had that technology at their age, we would have done the same thing. We would have been all over it.

    Scott:
    Before we wrap up, I want to thank you for coming on. I want to thank you for all you do for the community. I want to thank you for being my friend. I’m really excited to continue listening to your podcast and having other people buy your CDs, since I don’t buy CDs. But I may buy them digitally.

    Jonathan:
    Buy them digitally, man. Just throw money to the label. That’s all I’m asking.

    Scott:
    Everyone else should. Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you.

    Jonathan:
    Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. When I found out you were doing the podcast, I got really excited. I was like, I have to be on this. I have to be on yours and Trev’s, and I’m glad I was able to go on yours first.

    Scott:
    Take that, Trev.

    Jonathan:
    He had his chance. He said he didn’t know what he was doing yet, and I said, okay, hit me up later, but I’m going to do Scott’s now.

    Scott:
    Now you have to rise to the challenge, Trev. Beat this.

    Jonathan:
    I’m a high commodity, man. People want to talk to me.

    But Scott, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a supporter. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to sit and talk with me.

    I’m just a regular dude who had his life changed by music 30 years ago. I was lucky enough to play in bands and lucky enough to be part of a scene that still affects me and still affects the way I live my life. It’s something very important to me.

    Outside of being a husband and a father, this is one thing I can hang my hat on: knowing I’m part of a community that still cares and still values what they do, and knowing the amazing friendships I’ve been able to make over the last 30 years. It’s really an amazing thing, man. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me about what I enjoy.

    Scott:
    You literally just stole my entire biography. I feel 100% exactly the same way.

    Everyone out there listening or watching, check out all of Jonathan’s stuff. It’s great. It’s super dope. As you can tell, he’s the real deal. He’s an RG, a regular guy, but he loves punk rock, and it infuses everything he does.

    Thank you. Have a great day, night, evening, whatever it is you’re doing. Talk to you all later.

  • Episode 15: Brent Friedman of Exponential Booking

    Scott:
    Hey, everybody. Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: show promoters, engineers, record labels, zine writers, photographers, graphic artists, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, founder of DCxPC Live, a DIY label committed to documenting live punk, hardcore, ska, and metal on short-run vinyl.

    After three decades of playing in bands and booking shows, I've learned just how crucial the behind-the-scenes folks are to keeping the scene alive. Today I'm joined by someone who's played a major role in that work, Brent Friedman from Exponential Booking.

    If you’ve spent any time in the ska or punk worlds over the past few years, you've likely felt the impact of his work, even if you didn't realize it at the time. Exponential Booking is a boutique booking and management agency that helped grow the careers and brands of some of the most vital names in the genre. We're talking legends and current torchbearers like The Suicide Machines, Against All Authority, Big D and the Kids Table, Kill Lincoln, JER, Folly, Skatune Network, Bad Operation, Devon Kay and the Solutions, Half Past Two, Omnigone, Hell Beach, J. Navarro & The Traitors, and more.

    Whether it's putting together national tours, helping bands navigate a tough industry, or just staying true to the DIY roots that keep this culture thriving, Brent's work is all about building community and lifting others up.

    Let's get into it. How you doing, Brent?

    Brent:
    You just made my job so much easier. It’s so funny. I’m so bad at explaining what I do, and you just gave the Cliff Notes version of it very well. Very, very kind words.

    Scott:
    Thank you. I’m really grateful you showed up because I’ve been on this end as the local show promoter, dealing with regular bands booking their own shows and every now and then dealing with booking agents. But I’ve never actually, in all my 30 years, talked to someone whose main role is being a booking agent for bands that generally have guarantees and riders and things of that nature.

    I’m very curious to hear how you got into this, how it all started. We can go wherever you want to go with this. Where would you like to start?

    Brent:
    The easiest way to describe my origin story of getting into a behind-the-scenes role rather than being the musician myself is that I jokingly say I was always the sober, responsible person in all of my own bands.

    Playing in DIY bands through the later years of high school and early college, I just understood that there needed to be some organization involved when you’re touring. Especially DIY touring, there are so many unknowns, and the best thing you can do is be as organized as possible.

    In the early years, before I even knew what advancing a show was, or what the term load-in meant, I would put together these books. This was before smartphones, so I’d print MapQuest directions and have sheets with the check-in time, the address, the contact person who booked the show, local things, and whatever else.

    Later on, I learned that what I was doing was tour managing. When I discovered that, it was earth-shattering. I was like, wait, you can get paid to do this? I’ve been doing this shit for free for so long.

    Scott:
    That’s the very thing I used to do all the time for my band.

    Brent:
    My brother was booking these shows. I was the one organizing it. Then a little later on, when my brother got out of music, I continued playing in bands without him. It forced me to come out of my shell a little bit.

    That was still through the MySpace days. Playing in ska bands, there was this easy network. If you were coming through a city, this was the one ska band you hit up for a show. It almost was easier in a way.

    I did that, and then I’d fill in the blanks by asking my brother for old contacts or just figuring it out. That’s how I learned the booking part of it, if you will, although it’s debatable whether I ever learned how to actually book shows.

    I was still doing it for my own bands. I was booking the shows and, by nature, still doing the folders. My folders evolved over the years as I learned what you were supposed to be doing and what information you needed. I would spend so much time making these folders that I’m sure we barely looked at, but for me it was about having all the information in one spot in case I needed it.

    Scott:
    I did the same thing touring in the ’90s and early 2000s in my own band. Then I married someone who had been in a band that had toured, and we got in a band together. We would sit down and make the binders: Yahoo map printouts plus MapQuest, because sometimes they gave you different directions.

    We would source everything out: load-in, nearby hotels or motels. Not only places to sleep, but places where you could grab food innocuously. Or if you got lost, a hotel would often have a town map they could highlight and tell you where to go.

    Brent:
    Eventually I got hired to do that professionally. There was this guy, Tom, who hired me for a company called Over Easy Booking, which still exists today. They book and manage MxPx and Goldfinger and a bunch of bands that I was not necessarily a huge fan of, but it was still within the punk realm.

    I started off booking shows for bands like The Pilfers and The Mr. T Experience. That was my first stab at booking professionally, and I learned a lot about every avenue of the music industry because I was taught to do it so hands-on.

    That company not only booked bands, they also managed and handled the day-to-day of everything. If a band wanted to do literally anything, we were the ones who helped do it.

    I learned everything from running a merch store, to handling the rollout of a new single, to a live stream, to properly advancing shows and writing contracts. The big takeaway from that job was that while I think the traditional booking agent is simply booking the shows, getting the show announced to the promoter, and then wiping their hands clean, I was taught that we were on the job from the second we booked it all the way through after the show.

    So I learned about marketing, rollout, tracking ticket counts, what to do with those ticket counts, and helping bands market their own shows to their own fans. We were using promoters, but in some cases we weren’t. Sometimes I learned how to cut out a promoter completely. If it was a show we knew was a slam dunk, we’d rent the room and act as our own promoter so the band could get paid more.

    I learned so much about running a campaign and not just relying on the promoter to promote the show. Whenever I’m booking a show, I think of the band, or myself, as equally responsible for promoting the show as the promoter. I kind of think of every show as a co-promotion because fans want to hear about the shows from the bands themselves, not necessarily from the promoter.

    Scott:
    As a local promoter, I like to think the touring bands, local bands, and the venue all help promote. But they don’t always.

    I’m always kind of shocked when I say, hey, I’m going to print out a couple hundred handbills and I can mail them directly to your house. Which local band wants to pass them out? And none of the local bands say, yeah, send them my way. I’ll pass them out over the next month, or I’ll hang up some flyers. I find that odd. Why doesn’t everyone want to participate in that way?

    Brent:
    I think over the years I’ve gotten burned too many times relying on other people to do what they’re supposed to do and then they don’t do it. Eventually I was just like, well, I’m going to make sure this is happening regardless of whether it’s my job or not. I’m just going to get it done myself.

    Scott:
    I think I can relate. I manage a band called WORLDSUCKS, and I just finished booking their June tour. It was an eight-day run. I’m used to booking stuff for my own bands, but booking it for someone else and having someone actually pay me is outside my normal realm.

    I’m like, how do I make sure I’m not just booking this and handing it off to Mr. Promoter Person, and then they drop the ball? So it’s constant follow-up. At this show, I am seeing no activity from the bands, no activity from the promoter, no activity from the venue. So I need to make sure the band’s social media is posting, my own social media is posting, and I may need to run some social media ads in that area because I don’t see any action occurring.

    You can’t just drop it off and assume someone is going to take care of it. It doesn’t work.

    Brent:
    Correct. I’ve gotten better at understanding that some promoters, venues, and even bands are all trying to sell 30-plus shows a month at a time. I get it. Of course they’re not going to give my show the attention I want them to give it. That’s fine.

    It took me a while to realize that, and that’s why I try to make it as easy as possible. I’ll handle things. Here are all the localized assets. I’ll give you ad access if you want to run ads. Here’s approved copy. Let me make this as easy on you as possible so you’ll want to help our show a little bit more.

    If they see that we’re also working, it makes them want to work a bit harder too. Over the years, there have been so many people who have not done the thing they were supposed to do, and I just don’t get frustrated about it anymore. I just find a workaround and get it done myself.

    I worked for that company from 2016 through essentially the pandemic. For mental health reasons, I left that job in 2020. I was overwhelmed with the work itself and, without realizing it, the trauma of my friends losing jobs, the pandemic, and everything going on that year.

    My financial situation was unknown, but I just didn’t care. I wanted to reset my mental health. So I left, got a hard reset, and I think being forced to stay home and not have live shows was a blessing in disguise. It forced me to figure out what I wanted to do.

    I wasn’t sure if I wanted to work in music again, and that was fine. I was happy to stare at a wall for two weeks straight and figure out what the fuck I wanted to do.

    Eventually I got an under-the-table warehouse job. We were all wearing masks and processing orders. It was mindless, but at least I had some income.

    I was also playing in We Are the Union at the time, and we were about to announce a new record, Ordinary Life, in 2021. I knew that album campaign would take a lot out of me. I left the warehouse job so I could concentrate on that 24/7.

    That was a big part of what I was working on before shows came back. Then as shows started coming back, with the success of that record and a lot of the stuff happening in the Bad Time Records world with the new Kill Lincoln record and everything, all my friends’ bands were moving up to the next echelon.

    At one point, Mike from Bad Time was like, hey, all these bands are going to start playing bigger shows. Do you want to be the in-house booking agent for all the bands?

    My immediate response was, I don’t know if I want to do booking. But I was also concerned. I didn’t want my friends being taken advantage of. I know the jargon. I know how to navigate that world. If nothing else, I can be a buffer between the bands, booking agents, other agents, and promoters.

    So I said, okay, sure, why not? Coming back and doing this for my friends, what’s the worst that can happen? It kind of started as, I wouldn’t say a hobby, but it was just like, sure, I’ll do it.

    Shows started coming back, and I started doing that. Mike from Bad Time even created an email address for me, badtimebooking.com. That was essentially the working title for the agency. I was available for any band on Bad Time Records, which back then was maybe nine or ten bands. It didn’t seem too daunting.

    Then I started getting overloaded with work. Eventually, it didn’t make sense for me to be the booking agent for everyone on the label because there were just so many bands. Things were going to slip through the cracks and be unfair. I was barely getting any weekends.

    At some point, we had to say, okay, this is the roster. Everyone else we’ll try to include, but they can book their own shows.

    Then as that evolved, I started working with Against All Authority. I can’t even remember exactly how it happened. It was me and my buddy Mark. Mark used to sing for The Code. We became friends over the years, and he helped put me in contact with Against All Authority and later Suicide Machines.

    Somehow he and I, probably primarily him, became friends with Against All Authority again. When they were ready to play shows, Mark and I were the team. I got to book their first show back after 17 years, which was Fest. Then we were off to the races from there.

    With Suicide Machines, I uncovered some royalty money that was owed to them. A lot of money. I was already in contact with them and said, hey, I found this money for you. I can do the paperwork for you. They were like, sure, why not?

    That evolved into me being their finance manager. I would do their books. My background is that I have a degree in mathematics, but I never did formal accounting work. Funny enough, the bass player for Suicide Machines is an accountant, but he didn’t want to do it for his own band.

    Then at some point they asked if I wanted to run their merch store. My partner and I run merch stores for a handful of bands on the side. We process orders for Catbite, JER, Skatune Network, Direct Hit, and now Suicide Machines and Against All Authority. So I started doing that.

    Then it kept evolving. As I was doing their accounting for show weekends, I would pick things apart and say, hey, you could be getting paid more here. Eventually that led to me pitching to be their booking agent. Then later it became, hey, do you just want to manage this?

    It literally went from being a fan to managing the band in two or three years.

    Having the Bad Time bands plus other bands that weren’t on Bad Time created overlap. People would hit me up for label stuff, and people would hit Mike up for booking stuff. At some point, Mike nicely asked if I wanted to rebrand this as my own thing so it would be distinguished from the label.

    There was no bad blood. Mike and I are still great friends, and I book his band. It made sense. I thought about it for a couple weeks and landed on Exponential because that involves math. If anyone wants a deeper meaning, it relates to the exponential growth of my career or some shit. I don’t really know.

    The roster stayed the same, but I rebranded. With that roster, it brought some other clients. That’s how I ended up with Big D and others.

    What started as me doing this for my friends has evolved into a full-time job. It’s weird. I went to school for math. I worked at a bank for seven years. I almost wish I had figured out this was a way to pay bills 20 years ago, but I would have never known.

    Scott:
    It’s a crazy idea. I’ve booked tours for bands as favors on a regular basis.

    I helped a band I just put out, who just graduated high school. I made them book their own tour, but I gave them all my resources. I said, you really have to book your first tour by yourself. Good or bad, you have to learn that.

    But with WORLDSUCKS, I had already booked half of the last tour they did because I’m friends with them and respect who they are as people and musicians. They were like, no, we want to pay you to do it. I was like, pay me? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Who pays you? That’s like being paid to be a promoter. I don’t understand.

    How is it different now? You were booking bands no one had heard of when you were booking your own bands. Now you’re booking bands ranging from Hell Beach, who are still relatively new, to staple bands like Against All Authority. How does the booking process differ? Do you have a list of venues? Do you go through group promoters?

    You’ve reached out to me now a couple times after I helped out with the Big D show, but I’m probably not the normal person you would have reached out to in the past. Or am I?

    Brent:
    If you ask every agent, they’ll give you a different answer. I feel like the traditional booking agent has their go-tos in every spot. I try to look at everything case by case.

    If it’s just this band, or this package, or this city, I take all those things into consideration. Historically, I have a particular venue in mind for whatever I’m booking. That’s the first mental step. Based on whatever room it is, I know which person I work with who works with that room.

    I’ve definitely seen corporate booking agents book a smaller independent room that you can probably just go through directly, but they’ll use their Live Nation buddy to book that room. I have friends at Live Nation and book with Live Nation, but you’re overcomplicating it that way and maybe getting the band less money because of the extra overhead.

    I’m not saying what I do is the correct way. I tell people all the time that I’m kind of just making this up as I go. But based on the thing I’m selling, whether it’s just this band, a full package, or whatever, I usually have a particular room in mind based on the room size I want.

    Then based on which room it is, I know if I’m hitting up this person or that person. If the venue isn’t available, I have to go to Plan B or Plan C, or get creative, or even reroute.

    Scott:
    Do you have to adjust guarantees for bands based on where they’re playing? I’ve seen Sick Of It All pack a place in DC, and then I’ve seen them in Orlando on a Wednesday night with maybe 50 people there, which blew my mind. Do you think about whether they’ve been to this city, how this city normally draws, and whether this city digs this type of stuff?

    Brent:
    100%. Some of my bigger bands are on the weekend model, where they want to fly in and do a Friday and Saturday, or maybe Thursday through Saturday. Those exclusive shows I almost treat more like a festival. I’m really building out the bill, and obviously there’s a lot of money there. Whether it’s a hometown show or somewhere else comes into play as far as how much money we’re looking at.

    If it’s a full tour and we’re doing a Monday night somewhere, the rule of thumb is to do a smaller room. Sometimes I’ll do a smaller room and adjust the ticket price to make sure the money balances out.

    There’s no easy answer. It’s all case by case. I know which markets the bands do well in. I track that data religiously. I have a whole Dropbox folder, and you’ve seen my emails where I track ticket counts. That’s helpful for understanding ticket trajectories and final ticket numbers. Next time I’m going back to those cities, I can use that to adjust the money, ticket price, and room.

    Scott:
    You mean last time we played here, X, Y, and Z happened. So you know what they made and what might work next time.

    I don’t think anytime you’ve reached out to me, you’ve explicitly said a guaranteed amount right off the bat.

    Brent:
    Booking 100 to 200 cap rooms, once you’re going that small, there are agents who will beat you over the head for a fuck ton of money. But for a small show, especially if it’s almost a guaranteed sellout or full room, I try to make it as easy as possible. I’m going to help you work to get that sellout, and the band is going to walk with more money, and you’re going to walk with more money too.

    In some cases, I take almost a risk-versus-reward deal. We’ll do a door deal and make sure it’s fair. That way, when it gets to a certain point, the band walks with even more money than if there had been a guaranteed amount at the beginning.

    Scott:
    I tend to do a guaranteed minimum and then a percentage split if we hit a certain amount. I’ve started doing that in advance, before the show ever happens, so the bands aren’t walking in wondering what they’re going to get paid. I’ve done that on tour before, wondering if we were going to get any money that night. That’s fine, but not ideal.

    How do new bands get on your roster? Hell Beach seems fairly new on your roster. How do you choose who to work with versus who you already have? You only have so much bandwidth. What makes you decide to take on another band?

    Brent:
    I keep telling people I’m basically at capacity and can’t really take on anymore, which is true. There are exceptions, and Hell Beach is just such a good band.

    Some of them used to be in Secret Spirit, which I was a fan of. When the Hell Beach stuff came out, Mike released it under his imprint label, Uncle Style, not Bad Time. He was feeding me demos early on. I remember listening to their first EP an embarrassing amount of times. It was just so good.

    Being a brand new band, they didn’t even need a booking agent at first. But as it went on and they started getting more support stuff, they needed a friend to be the buffer. I was like, I don’t even know if I have time for this, but I also don’t want my friends taken advantage of, and I don’t want someone else taking this job and dropping the ball. So fuck it, let’s do it.

    They’re such nice people, and they’re such a good band. Up until then, my entire roster was completely ska or ska-punk. They were the first non-ska band. Rebranding away from Bad Time Booking opened me up to do that. I’m still primarily booking ska shows, but Hell Beach broke the ska barrier for me.

    Scott:
    I’m excited to see them again. I saw them at Fest last year, and they were great.

    You’ve mentioned a couple times not wanting bands to be taken advantage of. Do you have examples where you’ve seen bands get taken advantage of by promoters, venues, or booking agents?

    Brent:
    I don’t have specific examples. Booking agents talking to a band directly will talk to them very differently than they behave when talking to another agent. When an agent finds out another band has an agent, they do a 180 in the way they negotiate or make sure the band has a say in what the art looks like, or how they’re represented on whatever they’re signing on for.

    With smaller bands, some agents won’t pay them much or won’t treat them with the industry standard of a band supporting a bigger band.

    I’ve had bands come to me because they get an email from an agent or an offer to support a show or tour, and the agent uses jargon. The band will come to me and ask what the sentence even means. I have to translate it into layman’s terms.

    Scott:
    Is it usually standard for bands to approve opening acts? For the Hell Beach show coming up and the Kill Lincoln show, you and the bands had specific ideas. With Hell Beach, I had to send you five or six bands for them to listen to. Is that normal?

    Brent:
    I hate to throw ska under the bus, but sometimes we’ve all experienced doing a show where the promoter adds a very cringey local ska band, and we’re like, why is this band playing the show?

    There are terrible bands in every genre. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s more due diligence. Do you mind running the bands by us so we can look? The touring band wants to play a fun show with bands they like. There’s nothing more of a bummer than playing with an opener who is musically bad, problematic, cringey, or whatever.

    It’s crossing our T’s and dotting our I’s. I think it’s somewhat common. Some bands and agents absolutely do not care. They just want the promoter to fill the spot. But we try to put more emphasis on curating the show. From a fan’s perspective, what do we want the fans to see?

    Scott:
    That was probably the first time I had someone ask to hear the bands first. I’ve done UK Subs and MDC, but nobody specifically asked before. It didn’t offend me. I just found it interesting.

    You don’t know me well enough to know that I’m not going to put my own shitty band on just because I’m the promoter. I hate having my own band play shows I run. I want your bands in the middle because I’ve never played Poughkeepsie. I want to have a good show, so I know in my head who will go well and who will draw. But you don’t know me well enough to know that’s my thought process.

    Brent:
    For sure. I think approving locals is somewhat common. I also think that’s just the history of me getting burned too many times. I’m not trying to control everything, although I will admit I do have control issues. I’m bad at delegating. But it’s more crossing our T’s and dotting our I’s and making sure everything is how the band wants it.

    At the level Hell Beach is at, we’re going to compromise a lot more than if it’s a Suicide Machines show, where everything needs to get approved. I try to cater my expectations to the band.

    Scott:
    What’s the most difficult aspect of an average show? What’s the biggest hurdle you almost always run into when booking a tour or show?

    Brent:
    Recently, it’s been venue availability. I used to be able to book a tour five months out no problem. Now I’m sometimes getting holds 11 months out, and they’ll say, you’re fourth hold there. I’m like, who the fuck?

    Europe has been like that for a while, booking 18 months out or something crazy. The U.S. used to not be like that, and now we’re getting to that point. Part of it is offset from when shows came back in 2021. Nobody has been able to catch up.

    Other than that, communication. Promoters taking forever to respond. Or when I send an announce email with all the instructions, they don’t read what I send. The larger the tour, the more margin for error there is.

    I’m never offended if I have to email a promoter or marketing team three or four times before I get a response. I get it. Everyone is busy. Everyone is dealing with so much. But it doesn’t make it any less annoying.

    I try to be very quick with people. If I take an extra day or two, I’ll say, I’m so sorry this took me a couple days. People tell me I’m still way quicker than everybody else.

    Scott:
    You’re always very consistent. When you say you book four or five months out, I do a monthly show in Kingston, and I book four or five months out because the bands are booking that far out. If I want to book Soji from Philadelphia and they’re already six months out, then I guess I’m booking them in October.

    I had a show where a venue in Troy had a kitchen fire. Hopefully it comes back, because El Dorado is a great venue. I had to try to find a new venue with three weeks’ notice. It’s very hard to move an entire show with three weeks’ notice.

    I managed to, but only because a venue called Night Swim in Kingston let me do a show before their show. So I did an early show at two in the afternoon. Then I had to find a sound person because they don’t have their own sound. It was this whole thing.

    It happened while I was at Camp Punksylvania because I had it covered. I never have someone else run my own show, but I thought this venue would be fine because they have their own sound person and I just supply a door person. Then when I switched venues, I had to find someone to run the show, someone to work the door, and someone to run sound, all between Tuesday and Friday. The show was Saturday while I was at Camp Punksylvania.

    Brent:
    Never a dull moment. Constantly putting out fires is my entire day. I jokingly say 90% of this job is delivering bad news to people. The other 10% is good news.

    Scott:
    That’s why I don’t take phone calls. Every phone call is usually bad.

    My buddy Dez does sound for most of my shows. Before he calls me or asks me to call, he’ll send me a phone with a smiley face because I’ve gotten so burned. When someone in a band or working a show calls me, they never call to say, “Hey Scott, we’re so excited to play tomorrow.” It’s always, “Oh…” The call is always bad.

    Brent:
    Anytime I get a call, I’m like, what’s wrong now? What do I need to do?

    It’s funny too because anytime I get a text or call where someone essentially just wants to show gratitude or thank me, it’s almost jarring. I’m like, but what’s the other part? I guess it’s funny that we’re more thrown off when there is good news or someone just wants to thank us because it happens so infrequently.

    Scott:
    I can see an email from you and I don’t stress because I get lots of emails from you, and that’s fine. But if you called me, I’d be like, why is Brent calling me? He emails me. I’d better pick up.

    Brent:
    Now I’m just going to do that to fuck with you. No, I would never do that. As a high-anxiety person, I try to learn what triggers other people. I would absolutely not do that.

    Scott:
    My wife and kids call me. That’s pretty much it. Anyone else calls me, and I’m like, hmm. My recording engineer Josh from Danger Room often calls me with problems, but he’s already figured out the problem. He just wants to complain about how he had to solve it. So I know his phone calls.

    I listen to him complain, then walk away thinking, I’m sure he’ll figure it out.

    Brent:
    I get a lot of those vent phone calls too. I’m like, is there a problem you need me to help you solve, or do you just want to complain? It’s totally cool if you want to complain, but let me know if there’s a call to action.

    Scott:
    Do you book shows for your own band as well then?

    Brent:
    Yeah. I currently play in Omnigone. To back up a little, I played in We Are the Union for six years. Eventually I left as the drummer, and that was a crucial part of my career.

    At one point, we were playing such big shows that the behind-the-scenes work was at that caliber too. The best way I can explain it is that your musician brain and your tour manager or problem-solving brain are two completely different sides of your brain. Trying to use both at a show is a terrible idea, at least for me. I’ve seen other people pull it off. Paul from The Flatliners can perform flawlessly and production manage an entire show. It was inspirational. I can’t do that.

    With We Are the Union, I felt like I couldn’t perform musically at the level I needed while also doing the other stuff. It got to this fork in the road where I had to decide if I wanted to pursue the behind-the-scenes stuff or try to be a drummer.

    I thought about it for a couple weeks and realized I kind of liked hiding out in the back. I joke that I play drums so I can hide in the back. I hate playing on a drum riser. Eventually I had to decide that I actually preferred the behind-the-scenes stuff.

    Part of me thought, am I admitting defeat that I’m not trying to pursue a career as a musician? But that was ridiculous. Obviously it’s more realistic to make money doing the other stuff than trying to make it as a musician.

    At that point, my relationship with playing drums was also a little ruined because I was so stressed all the time. It just wasn’t fun anymore. If music isn’t fun anymore, what the fuck are you doing?

    I chatted with the band and said, hey, I want to leave the band as a musician, but obviously still want to be on the team in the booking and management role. Everyone responded positively. I thought the first tour where I wasn’t on drums and someone else was there would be weird, but it wasn’t at all. It felt completely normal, and it validated my decision.

    I could do this stuff for work, and then when I play drums, I can do it more on my own terms. I don’t have to tour myself to death. It can just be fun.

    That’s where Omnigone came in. Adam does a good job. Even though I say I’m not going to do the tour managing, I still do a little bit of that. There’s no way I’m ever fully not going to do it. But he does a good job making sure I don’t drive myself crazy with all that. Omnigone plays slightly smaller shows than We Are the Union, and we’re not touring that much.

    But yes, by nature, I book all the Omnigone shows because I’m not going to give that up to anybody. I’m so bad at delegating or relinquishing roles.

    Scott:
    That makes perfect sense. I play drums as well, and I did a two-day event, Rally in the Valley, for the record label. My wife and I are in a band called The Marnsters. We do punk rock covers, and we were going to play the show. I wanted to open. If I’m going to play a show I’m running, I need to open and get it over with so I can focus back on doing what I need to do.

    Our guitarist couldn’t get there, so we had to play midway through the night. I didn’t like it, but it was fine. We got set up so quick because I just wanted to get it done.

    Right now I’m in that band, and I’m in a band called Good Blasphemy doing Bad Religion covers. Both are very fun. But even though I like being a drummer, I’m more focused on the record label and promotion. I’m getting close to 50, and I don’t know how much more touring my body can handle.

    WORLDSUCKS just came back from their tour, and their drummer Nick usually manages most of their tours. He said it was the best tour ever because he never had to worry about a thing. He said, “I know I played my best because I didn’t have to worry about anything because you handled everything.” He just read what I put in the documents, showed up, and got to be in a band.

    Brent:
    What an interesting concept. That’s what I tell my bands all the time. Let me do the nerd work. You’re supposed to show up, have fun, and play your show. That’s it.

    You shouldn’t have to use your other brain. You should just be using your musician brain. When musicians can show up and just use their musician brain, the show is going to be better. They’re going to have a good time. Everything is going to work out.

    Scott:
    That’s why I feed the bands and bought a backline. You show up, here are your drink tickets, here’s your set time. That’s it. Then you play.

    And you should get paid, even if you’re the local band. It’s not just the 30 minutes you’re on stage. It’s all the weeks and months you spend practicing to perform that night. You deserve to be compensated as best as a small promoter can do it, or a big promoter.

    What’s the best part about being a booking agent? What’s the part that makes you go, yeah?

    Brent:
    Sometimes I have to catch myself from being really jaded. I try to find moments of gratitude and think, these are bands I’m friends with and talk to every day, and I’m creating events for what were and still are my favorite bands.

    I posted something on Instagram where everyone was posting a photo of themselves as a teenager. I have one where I’m in my old bedroom with all these punk posters in the background. One of them right behind me is a Destruction By Definition poster. Try to tell that kid that he’s managing this fucking band now.

    Every once in a while, I have to remind myself. I’m often at shows I’ve booked, whether I’m tour managing or just hanging out, and sometimes I have to say, dude, everyone is here because of me. This is fucking weird.

    Seeing people having fun at those events, and acknowledging that this is how I pay the bills, and these are my friends, and people I looked up to for years are coming to me for advice, that’s definitely the best part. I’m just some shithead in my office wearing gym shorts. I don’t know.

    Scott:
    You mentioned bandwidth. Have you ever thought about bringing on someone so you could bring on more bands, or do you want to keep it just yourself? Because you sound like a bit of a control freak. I say that with all kindness.

    Brent:
    Not offended. I’ve had people hit me up and say, if you ever need an assistant or another agent. I would absolutely benefit from having that. I hate to use the term assistant because it feels demeaning, but so much of my day-to-day is not spent booking the actual shows. I’m dealing with marketing, merch, advancing shows, and the day-to-day operations.

    Having someone to help with that would be crucial. The problem is that I’m in California. It’s very expensive to live out here, and it’s not getting cheaper. At the moment, my finances don’t give me the option to hire someone.

    I would love to expand at some point, but I do think there is something to keeping things concise. I’ve seen rosters that have hundreds of bands, and those bands are not getting the attention they need. There is no way.

    Even if I hired someone and took on more bands, it would probably be four or five more bands. I’m not trying to have an empire of bands who are all getting a very low level of attention. The more stretched thin you are, the more unfair it is to those bands. The work starts to dilute.

    Because I’m so hands-on, even if I had someone else, I would want them to be hands-on too. The larger the roster grows, the less we’d be able to do that. Then the shows suffer, and we turn into any old booking agency.

    I do hope to get there because I think I have a creative brain when it comes to booking shows. Sometimes I can’t get to the creative side because I’m dealing with paperwork, merch, or posting on a band’s social media to make sure we’re promoting the show.

    Scott:
    Do you control all the band social media for the bands you book?

    Brent:
    I wouldn’t say I control all of it, but I do have access. With some of the older bands, it’s easier if I do the posting for them. Not everyone knows how to navigate social media, but it’s also easier because every morning the first task I do is check ticket counts. If we’re close enough, I might post that a show is half sold out. If a show is slow, I’ll make something to give us another reason to post.

    I do a lot of stuff on the fly. I would hate to have to bug a band and say, hey, I want you to do this right now. If there’s something I need to happen, I can just do it.

    It’s also helpful when bands are on the road. When Suicide Machines are on stage, people are posting stories, and I can be at home resharing those in real time. All the bands still have access to their social media. I haven’t hijacked anything. But from a marketing perspective, it’s much easier for me to have access to their socials, Bandsintown, email list, and stuff like that.

    Again, it takes me away from booking new stuff, but it helps me sell the current shows.

    Scott:
    You always send me flyers. Do you make those yourself, or do you reach out to graphic artists?

    Brent:
    For the most part, there are a handful of artists that each band works with, or that I work with, and we’ll get that done.

    Sometimes I’ll get a layered file of the full tour, and then I’ll go in and make the localized version for each city. I know you’re supposed to send the blank version to the promoter and let them do it, but I’ve been burned so many times. I’ve had a promoter make a terribly Photoshopped localized poster, or not use a PNG file, or whatever.

    So I’m like, I’m just going to make this consistent. I’m already building the template, so I may as well copy and paste the different show information. I’m using the font from the original and giving it a consistent look. It also makes it easier for the promoter because I can say, you don’t even have to make the localized file. Here it is in all these formats. Good to go.

    Scott:
    Very cool. I don’t want to take up more of your time. It’s already been about an hour, and I know you’re busy. I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you.

    Brent:
    Same. Thank you. I’m notoriously very bad on podcasts, mainly because I’m bad at articulating myself, but this one was fun. I felt like I didn’t have to stress too much.

    Scott:
    You were great. You were very informational and casual. I think you really clarified for me the difference between the DIY world, which you’re still very much connected to, and me booking for small bands versus you booking for bands at that next level. It’s really dope that someone can be helpful to their friends and maybe also make a living.

    Brent:
    Maybe this statement makes me the worst booking agent or the best booking agent, but I try to navigate the industry with compassion and by being overtly nice to people. That’s not a performance thing. That’s just how I want to do it.

    I know that as an agent, you’re supposed to be a shark and be mean or stern. Very rarely do I have to do that. This is a shit industry. Everybody has thankless jobs, and I just want to be nice to people. That probably burns me sometimes with people taking advantage of me, but I also get enough wins in that column to justify it.

    Scott:
    That comes across. Even before I met you at Camp Punksylvania, it came across in your emails. That’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you on.

    As a promoter, I like to say we’re heart-led. We’re trying to make safe spaces where people feel they can enjoy themselves. I had “Be More Kind” tattooed on me because I used to be a middle school teacher, and if we can just be more kind to each other, as children and adults, it’s amazing how much better the world would be.

    When I’m angry or someone has done something wrong to me, I try to think, what’s the kindest way I can deal with this? Not what makes me feel the best or gets revenge. What’s the kindest way we can move forward? We all screw up sometimes. We all make mistakes. None of us are perfect.

    Brent:
    I agree with that. I love that.

    Scott:
    Thank you everyone for listening or watching, whichever one you did. Thank you, Brent, for being here. I greatly appreciate it. Enjoy.

    Brent:
    Thanks for having me.

  • Episode 14: Eva McSwagger of Snapper Magee’s

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore, punk, ska, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands across DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows. I've had the privilege of working with amazing people in the scene.

    Today's guest is Eva McSwagger, bartender extraordinaire at Snapper Magee's, a beloved dive bar that has been a cornerstone of punk and hardcore shows for over a decade.

    While bands routinely shout out “tip your bartender” from the stage, such acknowledgments barely scratch the surface of how vital a good bartender is to the scene. Their role extends far beyond pouring drinks. They help create the welcoming atmosphere that makes venues feel like home for bands and fans alike.

    Since taking her place behind Snapper’s bar, Eva has been a witness to countless shows, from triumphant nights that become local legend to gloriously chaotic disasters with their own chapter in punk rock history.

    I first met Eva in October of 2022, and her warmth and genuine investment in the scene immediately made me feel welcome. In fact, our conversations at Snappers played no small part in my decision to relocate to the Hudson Valley in 2023.

    Today, I'm excited to get Eva's unique perspective on what punk shows look like from behind the bar and to hear some stories that only a Snappers bartender could tell.

    Eva:
    Yeah, fine. You’re fine.

    Scott:
    You know, it’s Tuesday morning and you’re off work.

    Eva:
    Well, there you go then.

    Scott:
    It’s Wednesday. You know because you don’t work on Wednesdays.

    Eva:
    I haven’t worked Wednesday in over 10 years at any job I’ve had. Isn’t that weird? I don’t plan for that. It just happens.

    Scott:
    That is so fucking bizarre.

    As I was saying, I met Eva when I was looking at PhD programs and O+ Festival was happening in Kingston. My wife said I should go to O+ Festival on my way to visit the different universities. I knew some friends were playing, so I went.

    I think I stopped into Snappers multiple times over that weekend. Every time, Eva was great. I saw the stickers in the back, and she said there weren’t really any hardcore punk shows there that often, but there was one happening that Sunday. We talked and connected, and I remember thinking, she says there aren’t shows here, but there should be. If this existed here before, it can exist here again.

    Just talking to you and the way you made me feel, I came home and was like, all right, the Hudson Valley wasn’t my first choice of where to move, but if this one bar and this one person are representative of the quality of people I’m going to meet, let’s make this shit happen.

    And here I am two years later.

    Eva:
    I love that. You’re making me blush.

    Scott:
    You should. You are fabulous.

    How long have you worked at Snappers now?

    Eva:
    About four years, roughly. It was right after quarantine, like the year after that, when I started there.

    Scott:
    How many shows were they doing while you worked there versus before? What was the show experience like?

    Eva:
    It used to be probably once a month or so for years, and then from 2015 on, it slowly became less frequent.

    When I started, they had just been closed for 15 months because of quarantine. The owner at the time was like, no more live shows. I’m not fucking doing it. I’m not interested. That was very off-brand because he had a record company and was a music guy. I was like, why are we not doing these things?

    It was odd because those shows were always so successful. I think the first time I ever went to Snappers, there was a show going on. That’s a very small memory I have.

    Scott:
    Is that what made you want to work there, the fact that they had shows?

    Eva:
    I never actually intended on working at Snappers because I wanted it to stay golden. I didn’t want to see how the sausage was made.

    But I was offered a job. It just so happened that a bartender who was there called me about 20 minutes after I rage-quit the job I’d had for almost 10 years. She said, “I don’t want to work here anymore. Take my job.” I said okay, and I started the next day.

    The first time I went there was probably about 10 years ago. I was 21. I remember being like, okay, I’ve heard of this place my entire life. I have friends who drink here all the time, but I had never really seen the inside because I never tried to get in underage.

    The first time I walked in, I was like, yeah, this makes sense. In my head, this is what I imagined Snappers to look like from all the stories I’d heard about it. And that’s exactly what it looked like.

    Scott:
    It’s such an interesting bar because it’s open at noon and then open until four. The changeover of people is pretty dramatic.

    Eva:
    For sure. During the early afternoon, it’s all older guys who are retired or maybe do part-time contracting. Very blue collar. It’s the same people almost every day, people who have been drinking there for 20 years.

    Then around four to six, you get the after-work crowd. That’s more mixed. Some people are younger, some are older. Then the night shift starts at eight, and it’s all younger people. It almost feels like a different bar.

    Scott:
    I just did my first Sunday matinee at Snappers a couple days ago, and you could tell the difference between when it started, during the show, and immediately after the show.

    Eva:
    Yeah, the difference is very visible. I couldn’t go to the show on Sunday. I was not feeling well. But I saw all these videos, and it looked like it was fucking packed in there.

    Scott:
    It was pretty good. We had over 70 people pay, plus the five bands, plus other people who were just there. There were well over 100 people in that little bar.

    Eva:
    Fuck yeah. I love that.

    Scott:
    Tell me what it’s like to be a bartender during a show. I talked to the owners, and they asked how the new bartender, Brittany, did. I said as far as I could tell, she was fine. Whenever I needed a beer, she got me a beer, and I’m not exactly a teetotaler, so that was frequently throughout the night.

    Eva:
    During a show, there’s a fun rhythm to it. People are walking in when doors start, so that first half hour is pretty busy. Then people get into a rhythm.

    Once the show starts, every time a song ends, someone is going to give up standing there and take that opportunity to come to the bar. So every time a song is ending, I’m like, okay, be prepared for 14 people to walk up for 30 seconds at a time.

    If you can clock them from across the room, you can prepare their drink before they even walk over. There is definitely a science to the room.

    The busyness is cool because the money is there. People who come for shows at Snappers are usually really nice. They don’t cause problems. Most of them don’t even drink that much, to be honest, but they’ll still throw five dollars on the bar just because they were standing there. I’m like, you don’t have to do that, but it’s nice.

    It’s loud as hell, so it’s impossible to hear anything. I constantly have to ask, “What?” A lot of it becomes sign language that we make up on the spot, me and some customer I’ve never met before. But it’s fun.

    Scott:
    At least you don’t do tabs. I’ve been at shows where they ask for my name and I’m shouting, “Scott Pasch,” and they’re like, “What?” I’m trying to emphasize every syllable. I can’t imagine trying to hear names, get them right, find the card, and hear the drink order. How do you mitigate that?

    Eva:
    When I worked at another bar that’s now closed, we did tabs. It was a large bar, probably held 200 or 250 people. We had a very loud jazz band every Thursday, and the acoustics were crazy. You could hear it two blocks away. It was way too loud.

    People would be yelling their names at me. At some point, you just do the motion like, show me your ID so I can match it. That’s all you can really do. But at that point, you’re frustrated and you’re just angrily making gestures at a person, and they’re like, what the fuck does this mean? I’m like, how else do I say ID?

    Scott:
    Originally, at my show on Sunday, we weren’t going to check IDs at the door, but then Al was there helping check. I can’t imagine how much harder it gets when you have to check ID for every beverage.

    Eva:
    Especially on Friday nights. There’s a time in the night where we get probably 30 people in a five-minute span. It’s like clockwork every week, somewhere around 10:30 or 11:30.

    I’ll be making drinks, and then all these people walk in, and there isn’t a bouncer yet. So I have to check 30 IDs while making cocktails I already started, taking everyone’s order, and telling 20 of these 30 people who have never been there before that we don’t take cards, we’re cash only, and directing them to the ATM. I can’t recognize all their faces, so I end up double-IDing everyone by accident. It’s a mess.

    Scott:
    Even at a show, hardcore punk dudes all look the same now. Beards, black T-shirts, tattoos, glasses with the same kind of plastic frames. How do you tell us apart?

    Eva:
    When I have college-age kids, like 22 to 25, they all look the same to me, especially the boys. So I just call them all “haircut.” I’m like, “Hey, haircut, come here. Here’s your change.”

    At first, they really did not like it. They were not fans immediately, but eventually they got nice about it and laughed. I’m still going to keep bullying them though. Get a new haircut.

    Scott:
    For a couple years I used to wear a backwards pink trucker hat. That way people would remember if they met me at a show. That was my flair.

    You mentioned cocktails. I hope people are smart enough to know that when it’s busy, instead of asking for a fancy cocktail, they should just get a beer or a shot and move on.

    Eva:
    At Snappers, we have so much leeway to just be ourselves. We don’t have to watch our language as long as we’re not overstepping a boundary. If someone comes up to me and I have five people waiting, 60 people in the bar, and I’m the only bartender, and they ask for three Long Islands, two green tea shots, three kamikazes, and all this other stupid shit, I’m going to be like, no.

    The answer is no. You may not have those things. What canned beer would you like? You have five seconds to figure that out, or I’m walking away from you. I do not have time for this.

    It’s also courtesy. If I go to a big venue show, I don’t order complicated things. I usually drink whiskey neat, but I won’t do that there because I don’t want to need a new neat every 20 minutes. I’ll get a Jameson ginger double, and that will last longer. It makes my life easier and the bartender’s life easier.

    Why would you want to wait 15 minutes for a shitty Manhattan from Savoy? That doesn’t make any sense.

    Scott:
    How often do you want to stand in line and wait for a drink? Get a tall boy beer, put a koozie on it, and chill the fuck out.

    What are some shows you’ve seen while bartending there that stick in your head?

    Eva:
    I’m the worst with remembering why shows were happening. I want to say it was a Top Rank anniversary show, maybe the first or second one. They were supposed to have four hardcore bands, and whatever the headlining band was couldn’t show up or something. Something very last minute fucked everything up.

    Our old owner was working the door that night, and we asked him if our friends, who were in a very popular band and were already there, could take the headlining spot. He was like, no, we’re not allowing that.

    But as bartenders, we all secretly said, well, he’s leaving at one, so as soon as he leaves, that band is getting on stage and performing without his knowledge.

    They ended up headlining the show, and it was very fucking cool. They wanted to play there again later, and the owner said no. I think he just didn’t like those guys. I don’t know why.

    Scott:
    Who was the band?

    Eva:
    Age of Apocalypse. They’re all really nice guys. I went to school with a couple of them.

    Scott:
    How do shows affect the bar overall? My show was a matinee, and I know the owners wanted it to run later, but I’m always hesitant to run later on a Sunday.

    Eva:
    Shows, especially loud bands, have a way of scaring away the losers who are often assholes every Friday or Saturday. Those people don’t want to deal with the band, so they leave. Then I get this cool fucking show going on, and I’d rather those people stick around. Plus we have twice as many people as usual, and the shitheads left, so I prefer a show.

    Scott:
    I gave the bands free drink tickets, and I told them, “I hesitate to tell you this because I assume you know better, but the drinks are free and the service is not. Please tip your bartender.” I’ve known bands at other venues who get free drinks and don’t drop a dime after drinking 10 or 15 drinks among them.

    Eva:
    I think sometimes it slips the mind. If you don’t ever have to pull out your wallet because you have a free drink ticket, you don’t think to do it. But most people are pretty good about it. If they know they’re getting free drink tickets, they’ll usually throw a tip on the bar immediately and say, there’s your tip, I’ll drink what I drink.

    Scott:
    I screwed up this Friday at a show at El Dorado. I think the bartender’s name is Matt or Charles. He starts off the night, then Jordan takes over. I usually tip him in advance because I know he’s going to be gone by the end of the night, and I don’t know if they pool tips or not. Somehow I got distracted, and I think I forgot. I tipped at the end of the night, but I felt bad.

    Eva:
    He probably recognizes that you usually do it and figured you’d get him next time. Slip-ups happen. I’ve walked out of my own bar without tipping my coworker before, and I’ll immediately text and say, fuck, I forgot to tip. I’ll see you tomorrow.

    Scott:
    Having been a server, are you a heavy tipper? Especially when you visit your own place and your coworkers.

    Eva:
    I get a fat discount in almost every bar I go to, which is sick, but I end up tipping literally the exact amount of money I would have paid. It’s as if I paid my bill but didn’t tip on it. I’ve been yelled at by friends who say I’m over-tipping in an uncomfortable manner.

    Scott:
    You said everyone treats you well. I’ve been listening to Kathleen Hanna’s book, and I turned 16 in 1991, so I get the era. She talks about the amount of sexism Bikini Kill experienced, and I’m like, gosh, that really was the ’80s and early ’90s. Have you dealt with people objectifying you or being total creeps?

    Eva:
    This is kind of an awful thing to say, but it’s true. The only kind of job where being objectified as a woman is a good thing is when you are a tipped employee. It’s super fucking annoying, but most of the time, it’s essentially harmless. You let the person run their mouth for two seconds, take their $25, and they’re going to leave in five minutes.

    There are definitely giant weirdos and perverts who make everything weird in a very weird way, but most of them are just people hitting on you badly.

    Scott:
    Every now and then when I worked in DC, some very sexy gay man would tell me I was a bear. I was like, I would love to be your bear, but it’s not in my cards. I would certainly play it up if I thought I could get more tip money out of them.

    Have there been any horrible disasters you can recall, where the PA blew up or a band had a meltdown?

    Eva:
    Our PA system sucks. A lot of times people are like, I either can’t use that, don’t know how to use it, or it’s not working. That happens probably 60% of the time with any kind of performance.

    Other than that, shows are usually some of the most behaved situations we can have at Snappers. Snappers is so unpredictably good and evil that you never know which one you’re going to get. But when there’s a show, there’s something to center all that energy into, and it’s less chaotic.

    We did have a weird show last year. I have no idea why the show was going on or who was even playing. There were three or four different huge groups who came in on a Friday or Saturday night. There was a wedding, so everyone was dressed to the nines. Then there was somebody with this giant teddy bear that was four or five feet tall.

    It was a mosh pit with a giant teddy bear, people in suits, Al and Willie in punk gear, and this blend of 17 different walks of life all in a mosh pit together. It was very cool. I have no memory of when that happened, but there’s a video of it on our Instagram somewhere.

    I want to say The Dead Unicorns were playing.

    Scott:
    I think I saw them at Tubby’s during a Top Rank show.

    Eva:
    They definitely played Snappers at one point. I think they posted the video. People in suits in a mosh pit is the funniest thing.

    Scott:
    When you do have shows, is it usually just a local band convincing the owners to do it, or do you work with a lot of promoters like me?

    Eva:
    Who?

    Scott:
    I am your one and only. I’m special.

    Eva:
    Before, when we had the old owner, Travis, we didn’t have an Instagram, we didn’t have an active Facebook, and we didn’t have a phone in the bar. We just didn’t have the internet as far as Snappers was concerned. At the time, we didn’t have Wi-Fi, and the service wasn’t great either.

    He took care of it by word of mouth or making a flyer. Most of the bands were friends of his or were connected to his record label, from what I know.

    With the new owners, you were there when they bought the place, essentially. You were around when that happened. You were the only person who wanted the job.

    Scott:
    I know, and it has worked out for everyone. It took a while. I was persistent. I promised I wasn’t going to half-ass it.

    You have DJs sometimes too, right?

    Eva:
    DJs are a very new thing to Snappers. They weren’t a thing until the new owners took over. I think we started with a DJ for emo night. It was an easier transition because instead of live bands, it was emo night. It’s still alternative music, but it gets poppy at points.

    From there, we started having more theme night party events. We had Lady Gaga night. We had a psychedelic thing, but that was just my personal playlist, to be honest. I was on mushrooms and made a playlist and called it psychedelic, but I made a DJ play it for me all night, so that’s okay.

    Scott:
    I know you all get to interact on the social media, both responding to things and posting things like “I’m here, come check it out.” How much influence do you have as a bartender on what happens in the evenings, whether DJs or shows?

    Eva:
    For the most part, they give us free rein to make up as many ideas as we want. We present a little pitch, usually via text message, and ask what they think. If they answer, that means maybe. If they don’t answer, that means don’t ask again. It’s probably not going to happen.

    If they do answer, they’ll say, okay, do you want a DJ? Do you want a live band? Figure it out. They make us figure everything out on our own. They say, here’s the money you’re allotted for that event, go do it.

    Scott:
    That’s probably pretty rare for most bartenders, that level of ability.

    Eva:
    Yeah. Sometimes they have ideas of their own and pass them down to whoever is bartending that shift. Whoever is bartending that shift is essentially in charge of the event. Some events were made up by other bartenders who didn’t work that day but hosted it, which just means you drink whiskey in the corner and watch everyone get hammered.

    Scott:
    I’ve definitely seen you all do shots with people. It always makes me think of Bar Rescue. “Bartenders don’t drink!” But if Snapper Magee’s bartenders didn’t drink, that would bother me.

    Eva:
    If nobody at Snappers drank, it would be a very boring place with a lot more rules.

    Scott:
    The lack of rules is part of the benefit of the place.

    Eva:
    Anyone who pisses me off there, I’m like, we have maybe four rules. How did you possibly break one? It’s almost impossible to do something horrible in Snappers unless you actively tried.

    Also, the people who work there think everything is funny. Things that are not funny, we think are very funny. It’s really hard to piss us off. It’s not an easy task.

    Scott:
    Do you charge for DJ shows? Do you get door money? How does that work?

    Eva:
    For maybe New Year’s or a holiday, they might charge at the door. Or with Kevvy, DJ Human, who is one of our DJs, a lot of times he’ll do a benefit. So they’ll charge a suggested donation at the door.

    For the most part, the bosses just pay whatever the DJ costs, and the DJ usually gets a couple beers and maybe a shot or two. Usually the only time I see people charge the door at Snappers is for live bands.

    Scott:
    People are used to paying for live bands. I imagine there are regulars who come in and say, I’m just here to drown my sorrows in my Snapper Special, and I don’t want to hear this.

    Eva:
    I don’t collect the money at the door, so I don’t really have a personal pull on who gets in for free. But whoever is working the door usually knows our regulars. Most of our regulars wouldn’t think twice about paying $5 at the door. They’re respectful of the bar. They’re like, today you want to charge me five? Here, take five. It makes your life easier and helps you have your events.

    Scott:
    I look at it like even if you get 30 people for a show, that’s 30 people who wouldn’t have been there otherwise.

    Eva:
    Also, Snappers isn’t a huge bar. It only holds like 70 people on paper.

    Scott:
    Yeah, on paper. But you definitely put more in there. We had more than enough, plus all the merch tables. The foosball table was absolutely necessary for merch.

    You have five bands, they all have merch, and I have my merch. It’s about trying to make sure everyone gets something.

    I spent a lot of money on the show, but I also sold like 20 records. And the bands loved it. Alliteration had been around 10 years in the Hudson Valley and had never played Kingston. Lake Lanier from New York City had like six people drive from Jersey to see them. PWRUP from Western Mass had a kid walk in and shake my hand because he saw the flyer for the show at the Big D show at Unicorn. He said no one does this kind of flyering. He was so excited.

    Eva:
    Pure ska kid. I love him. It’s like when the Grinch’s heart grows five sizes.

    Scott:
    Exactly. That made my night. The kid walked in right when doors opened, all ska’d out with the ska beanie on.

    Eva:
    That is one of my favorite things about events at the bar. When there’s a theme, whether it’s a genre of music or a literal theme, and people really go all out for it, that’s my favorite thing. Which is ironic because I never do. I’m always half-assed about themes, even if I make them up. But I love when other people put effort into stuff.

    Scott:
    There was actually a circle pit. How often do you see mosh pits? Snappers is not that big.

    Eva:
    Not often. Usually people are moshing, but it’s such a small space that there’s not a lot of room. If you start doing circles, you’re blocking the bathroom hallway and all sorts of shit. I like it. I’m here for the party. But it’s definitely a more difficult space to work with.

    The only time I’ve seen a mosh pit go hard was that time with the giant teddy bear and the people in suits. People were going fucking ham that day. But I’ve never seen it go awry, so that’s good. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone get hurt there during a mosh pit, even accidentally.

    Scott:
    Crowd killing is not my favorite, especially in a small venue where there’s no space to move.

    Eva:
    That spot in front of the stage is also where people play darts. If a band has a smaller crowd, people will play darts around them anyway. I’m like, you’re going to hit someone in the face with a dart. You’re going to take out their entire eyeball and pop it like an olive on a toothpick. It terrifies me.

    Scott:
    Somebody suggested using the space near the stage for merch, and I was like, no, we’re going to have too many people. People are going to need to stand there. If I did this right, that space is not going to be for merch.

    Eva:
    It gets very crowded and tight up there when popular shows happen. It’s elbow to fucking elbow just to get to the bathroom.

    Scott:
    And the bathroom situation is a whole other thing.

    Eva:
    Our toilets, because we go through a new one every four months somehow, are not attached to the floor most days. Every three to four months, someone rips a toilet off the ground, smashes it, or rips the toilet lid off. At one point, we had a graveyard of toilets in the basement. There were over 15 toilets. We called it the Museum of Toilets.

    Scott:
    That reminds me of over 20 years ago, when I was playing CBGB. The night before, we played New Jersey and met this punk kid. He came to our afternoon show at ABC No Rio and then asked if he could ride with us to our CBGB show. We said sure, and put him on the guest list because he had seen us twice already.

    Then he smashed the fucking toilet at CBGB, and they caught him doing it. I was like, you fucker. Why are you doing this?

    Eva:
    There has to be a word for whatever disorder gets in a drunk person’s head where they want to rip a toilet off the floor. This is not uncommon. I don’t know why anyone even wants to touch the toilet.

    Scott:
    Has anyone tried to rip those keg urinals off?

    Eva:
    They can’t be ripped off. There used to be real urinals, and people kept ripping them off. So the old owner was like, fine, fuck you guys. I’m going to put a keg on the wall, cut a hole into it, not sand it, and bolt it into the wall with a force stronger than gravity. It’s not coming off the wall.

    Scott:
    There’s only about four inches between those and the sink. If there are two people pissing and you want to get by, you can’t.

    Eva:
    Multiple times a week, the only stall in the men’s room either has no door or the door doesn’t close. So there’s a dude taking a shit with the door open and two dudes taking a piss. You’re already two dudes too deep in that small-ass bathroom.

    Scott:
    I bought all the bands pizza, and one of them said he wasn’t vegan but he was lactose intolerant and could suck it up. I said, you don’t want to have stomach issues at Snappers. That is not the place.

    Eva:
    Whenever people really need to use the bathroom at Snappers, if it’s a dude and there aren’t many women around, I tell them to use the women’s room. It’s way easier and better. Nobody’s going to know. We probably won’t see a girl in there until 6 p.m. anyway.

    Scott:
    It’s fascinating how much better women’s bathrooms are in bars. At El Dorado in Troy, the ladies’ room is spacious with mirrors and lights. At Snugs in New Paltz, the men’s room is like a prison toilet. It’s just a metal bowl with no seat, and the door doesn’t lock. I would never shit in there.

    Eva:
    In a dive bar, the ladies usually have clean toilets and the guys are fucked. But the girls didn’t make the mess in the men’s room. The men did.

    Scott:
    Oh no, it’s absolutely us.

    I remember being on tour in Austria around 2001 or 2002, and they had co-ed bathrooms. For Americans at that time, that seemed pretty wild. Of course we didn’t speak the language, and I guess some stalls were dedicated for men and some for women. My bass player kept trying to go into the wrong stall, and these women kept yelling at him. He didn’t understand what he was doing wrong. He eventually left and took a shit outside, then buried it.

    Eva:
    That’s incredible. I love everything about that.

    Scott:
    There are so many bathroom stories in Europe. They make you pay to go to most bathrooms. There’s an attendant to get in.

    Eva:
    I remember being probably six or seven at Coney Island, and I had to put a dime in to get into the bathroom. I remember thinking, what if I just took a shit on the floor right here? Are they going to yell at a seven-year-old for shitting themselves in an amusement park, or can they just let me in the fucking bathroom?

    Scott:
    That’s like when you go to a show and there’s a bathroom guy with paper towels, cologne, and spritzers. He wants to spray soap into your hands and hand you a paper towel, and I’m like, I don’t need assistance. I’m not buying your cologne or your condoms.

    Eva:
    I’m very happy I’ve always had the experience of having a girl’s bar bathroom because men’s bathrooms are not a fun place. The girls’ room at every bar or venue is fun. You make a best friend for five minutes. You don’t know their name, but you learn all about their trauma and how they hate their mom, and then you go back out into the bar and never talk again. It’s the equivalent of making a cigarette friend for 10 minutes.

    Scott:
    Do you have to clean the bathrooms afterward?

    Eva:
    No, we have a porter. You could not pay me enough to clean those bathrooms, or honestly the rest of the bar. Shout out to Geronimo. He’s been doing that job for probably 15-plus years. He comes in every day in the morning and cleans up after all of us. When we close at night, we wipe stuff down, do dishes, clean the sinks, take the trash out, put beer away, and that’s about it.

    Scott:
    I worked in restaurants, and they always made the servers clean the bathrooms.

    Eva:
    I was a server at a restaurant for a very long time. One time my boss saw me doing nothing because we were slow and told me to do side work. I said I already did it all. She handed me a toothbrush and pointed at a fridge in the kitchen. She wanted me to pull it out and scrub the tile under it. I was like, I need you to pay me $30 more an hour, and maybe I’ll think about it. Then I got to go home early.

    Scott:
    I used to manage coffee shops, and I would make people scrub the mop sink and the baseboards. But I never asked them to do anything I didn’t do myself. I put myself on the cleaning list too. Cleaning the milk fridge is disgusting because it smells like sour milk, but it has to be done.

    Eva:
    I was also a barista and bartender at my serving job, so we had a milk fridge too. Once my manager was breastfeeding at the time, and she kept her milk in a mason jar in the milk fridge labeled “human juice.” I didn’t know that. I saw it and thought it was coconut milk.

    I 100% made someone a human breast milk latte. Before I handed it to them, my boss asked if I made it with that. I said, yes, coconut milk. She said, we don’t have coconut milk. I got caught seconds before. The person did not drink it, but I did try to serve it.

    Scott:
    In Woodstock they would love it.

    Eva:
    That’s where I worked.

    Scott:
    That kind of gets into the Snappers crowd. How much of it is transplants and Brooklynites? I’ve heard people call Kingston “little Brooklyn.”

    Eva:
    Everybody says that because I was born and raised in Kingston, so I’ve watched it get taken over by billionaires. It sucks.

    But I have plenty of friends who are not from here or are from out of state. If you come to any town just to move there and live your life, and you’re not buying houses to flip them into Airbnbs and ruining everyone’s life, I don’t care where you live. Live in my neighborhood. Cool. Just act like a normal person.

    Scott:
    I came here and said I wanted to start a band, do shows, and play music.

    Eva:
    You’re literally providing music and art to the community you moved to. That’s what you’re supposed to do. That’s how you’re supposed to move to places.

    Most people at Snappers are locals. On weekends, you’re more likely to get out-of-towners doing a weekend upstate. That’s more of a summer and fall thing because we have all the festivals: Woodstock Film Festival, Autumn Festival, O+ Festival.

    Scott:
    Does Snappers participate as a venue for O+?

    Eva:
    I don’t want to get this incorrect, but from what I understand, the previous owner had some kind of beef with O+ not representing alternative music as much as it could, so there was less room for local bands to have space. So he made the choice not to work with O+. I’m not sure why we didn’t participate this past year.

    Scott:
    The first time I came up was because Tsunami Bomb was playing O+. One member lives in Phoenicia and the others are from California. They brought Skappository up from Long Island, and I put out their record. Do I wish they had more punk rock? Sure. But there are also underground musicians, comedians, and poets there.

    Eva:
    It’s such a huge festival. It needs to draw the average person, not just the average person who goes to Snappers. You need a wider net, and you can’t do that with music that can be alienating to certain ears.

    We did have bands play that weekend, but it wasn’t directly associated with O+.

    Scott:
    It seems like a natural fit.

    Eva:
    I don’t really understand O+ because I always have to work it every single year. Not for the festival, but I have to bartend during the festival. I never really get to participate in any of the events. I’m just there serving drinks to everyone.

    Scott:
    Lara Hope is the one who runs it, right? She’s playing Snappers with Tiger Piss in March. Super nice, super kind.

    They give out free medical care to musicians, which is wild. They teach Narcan training, hand out Narcan to bars and restaurants, and offer things like CPR and first aid training. They give free exams. Dental, OB-GYN, all kinds of healthcare for musicians.

    I’m doing a two-day event at Snappers in April, and I might have eight bands on that Saturday. I’m not sure where I’m going to find all the space. What about the space next door?

    Eva:
    It used to be the wine and liquor store, and then it caught fire. The liquor store moved around the corner. For a long time, some local artists were painting it and it looked kind of cool. I believe the building got purchased. Now there’s a giant sign on the door saying if you see anybody messing with this building, call this number and report it.

    Scott:
    I’d love to take that abandoned space and set up tables for the bands.

    Eva:
    I know Ramona Lane used to practice upstairs a couple doors down. That’s how I met them. Every Tuesday they used to have practice, and before and after practice they would come to Snappers and hang out with me. I haven’t seen them go up there in a while, but maybe talk to them.

    Scott:
    I have an issue with calling anything a festival if it’s just one venue for two days. A festival to me has to have vendors, food trucks, and multiple locations. Has Snappers had the food truck before?

    Eva:
    Yeah, we can request that he comes. I can’t make promises, but we can always request. He likes to be told when Snappers is busy or going to be busy so he can choose whether to show up. During the summer, he’s usually out Friday and Saturday nights, but sometimes he parks over by Snugs.

    Scott:
    I bought four pies from Ollie’s for the bands, but that disappeared early. Late at night, everyone wanted Chinese food. I’m not saying I need to take money from the food truck person, but they might have made some money.

    Eva:
    Momo was telling me yesterday that she was at Snappers after the show and helping pick up glasses. She saw the pizza boxes and said to the boys, damn, you ate all that pizza by yourself?

    Scott:
    I didn’t even get any myself. By the time I went to get food, there was nothing left. I dropped off Willie and then ran to Taco Bell.

    Eva:
    You can always get food delivered to Snappers. Nobody cares.

    Scott:
    I have an issue with DoorDash. It gets things wrong, shows up late, and costs me more. I’d rather pick it up.

    Eva:
    I order groceries on DoorDash every Friday when I get paid. Every single Friday. I love grocery shopping. When it’s not grocery shopping day, I’ll spend an hour making my list for Friday and then edit it 30 times.

    Scott:
    Speaking of DoorDash and transportation, Snappers is a drinking bar, but Uber is not super available in the area. Do you think that hinders business? I usually have three beers over two hours and then stop because I have to drive.

    Eva:
    Before the pandemic, there were six or seven other bars in the neighborhood, including the venue, and there were way more Lyfts and Ubers available. Some would even take cash if you flagged them down like a cab. They’d drive in circles around the block until 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning every day of the week.

    Then the pandemic hit, those bars closed, the venue closed, there were fewer people, and then there were fewer Ubers and Lyft drivers. Most people who were used to drinking at Snappers continued to drink there, but then there was a 30% uptick in DWIs, which sucks.

    If there were more Ubers available, it would help people get out. People also don’t want to be stuck uptown because there’s no free parking unless it’s Sunday.

    Scott:
    That’s another benefit of Sunday matinees. Parking is free. We did some double-parking to load in, but everyone double-parks on Front Street anyway.

    Eva:
    That street is so small. Anytime anyone has to do delivery, there are Mack trucks double-parked up and down this skinny one-way street. Taking 10 minutes to unload your van is probably not the end of the world.

    Scott:
    It’s essential. You have to have music.

    That brings us back to the whole thing. You’re a bartender at a dive bar, and really it’s just four walls, stickers, and a jukebox machine. Without you, Terry, Foss, Brittany, and Vic, there isn’t really a Snapper. It’s just a place.

    You’re the one who made me want to do the stuff I’m doing there. Do you recognize how vital your role is in making a venue where people and bands feel welcome?

    Eva:
    I think that’s true of bartending in general. A lot of the job is your personality. It’s the definition of being a personality hire.

    You need your personality to make sales, but more than that, you have to get the morale up. You need to be a party in a box, or the therapist, or whatever is needed. A lot of times it just feels like natural conversation. But that might just be who I am.

    I know a lot of people who have worked in kitchens their whole lives. I’ll ask why they don’t work front of house because they’d make way more money at an easier job, and they’ll say they’d rather shoot themselves in the skull than talk to a person for money. I think that’s insane. I can’t stop talking.

    Scott:
    It matters so much. My band did a reunion show at the Ottobar in Baltimore, and we dedicated one of the songs to Trish, who was our bartender at the Sidebar 20 years ago. Her and Meredith, and the way they treated us as bands and patrons, made us love playing there. If they were unkind or rude or just gave us drinks with no personality, I don’t know that I would have loved the bar as much.

    Eva:
    That’s something people say about Snappers when they become regulars. They really like the sense of community. People are usually welcoming. If you’re suddenly there every day, people are like, who’s this new guy in class? I guess he’s going to stick around, so we might as well talk to him.

    I’ve had so many moments in Snappers. I asked for a divorce in Snappers. It’s also the only bar I’ve ever been 86’d from. I was 86’d there on Sunday nights for three months when I was 23.

    Scott:
    It’s very hard to break the rules in Snappers since there are only four, so you must have done something.

    Eva:
    It was a Sunday night, and I drank way too much. I was puking in the toilet, which at the time was a daily occurrence, so that wasn’t the problem. The problem was that I couldn’t stop. This went on for an hour. It was four in the morning, and the bartender wanted to go home an hour ago.

    Eventually I tried to get up and leave, but my feet and legs had fallen asleep. I couldn’t stand, and I was too hammered to understand that. I kept falling. Eventually the bartender said he needed to call an ambulance if I didn’t leave. My friend picked me up and literally carried me home in a blizzard.

    I tried to come back the next Sunday, and the bartender was like, no, take a three-month break.

    Scott:
    How often do you have to deal with people who are overly intoxicated? I imagine it gets hard to tell, especially with the Snapper Specials being shots.

    Eva:
    As obliterated as I was in that story, not very often. People get close to the line pretty frequently. The hardest part is you can never tell if people are on drugs or not. You can’t always tell if they’re actually that drunk, or if they’re tweaking out, or if they seem more sober than they are because they’re on drugs.

    A lot of times, people who get way too drunk are secretly drinking booze out of their pocket in the bathroom. I think I do okay not over-serving people. I’m pretty on top of it most of the time.

    If someone is asleep for the last hour and I can’t get them up, then I’ll find a half-drank bottle of shitty booze in the bathroom, and I’m like, that makes sense.

    Most of the time, unless someone is a real dick to me, if I have to cut them off, I do it quietly. I don’t make a show of it. I’ll just silently put a water in front of them. They usually get the message. If they don’t drink it, I’ll say they need to drink that before they get anything else, and then we can talk about it. Most of the time the answer is still no, but you give them a slice of hope so they’ll drink the water.

    One of my favorite things to do when someone is really drunk is spray them in the face with the soda gun. I don’t get to do it very often at Snappers because of where the soda gun is. At my old bar, we had one in every corner, so I could just spray sleeping people. Throwing ice at sleeping people also helps.

    Scott:
    You have to protect your own space and also protect their lives. That’s such a balance, managing all that without cutting someone off prematurely.

    Eva:
    People who get cut off and are dicks about it are only being dicks because they’re so drunk. So they probably should have been cut off anyway. I can’t remember a time where I cut someone off prematurely and realized I was wrong. Maybe they just left and didn’t argue with me.

    Scott:
    At the show, someone tried to come in, and Willie was working the door with Al. They knew who this person was and said he had reportedly been a problem toward women. I don’t know this person at all, but I know Willie. He’s a kind-hearted person, and if he says someone has been a problem toward women, I’m not playing with that.

    The guy sent me a Facebook message saying how unpunk rock I was. I didn’t even respond. I’m too old for that. I have no beef with him. I don’t know him. But if several people tell me there’s a serious issue, then I’m going to listen.

    Eva:
    I haven’t seen that person in a very long time either. He used to be around. I remember when he was coming around more often. If he was drinking more than usual, he would get flirty in a weird way. At first I wasn’t sure if he was being a creep or just drunk and bad at flirting. But over time I started hearing people say, no, that guy is a fucking creep. He’s kicked out of this bar, that bar, and this bar. Then I stopped seeing him.

    That’s also a telltale sign of a problem person. They disappear for a year or two, maybe three, then come back when they think they won’t recognize the staff anymore.

    Scott:
    I recognize that people can change, but until you’ve convinced the people you’ve hurt that you’ve done that, the problem isn’t with me.

    Eva:
    We’ve had plenty of people who were 86’d and then apologized. They sat down with the offended party, whether it was a bartender or someone else. I know people who broke windows or doors and then literally came in the next day with money to pay for it and apologized. And then they were let back in.

    Just don’t be a dick about apologizing. It’s not that hard.

    Scott:
    We are not our worst moments. My worst mistake doesn’t define who I am, but I have to make amends for the things I fucked up. It’s restorative justice.

    I don’t want to take up too much more of your time. We’ve passed the hour mark.

    I’ve always enjoyed talking to you. Thank you for everything. Thank you for being the connection that brought me here and allowed me to do the things I’m doing. Thank you for helping create the atmosphere of a dive bar that has been, should be, and hopefully will continue to be an integral part of the punk scene. If you ever leave Snappers, I hope you go somewhere else and continue doing the same thing, if that’s what you want to do.

    Eva:
    Thank you.

    Scott:
    The owners told me that a former bouncer who doesn’t work there anymore said the Sunday show reminded him of how Snappers used to be. He praised the night, and that meant a lot.

    You constantly encouraged me to keep trying. You told me this should happen, and it did. Thank you so much for all you’ve done.

    Eva:
    Thank you, Scott.

    Scott:
    Thank you everyone at home for listening and watching. This is DCxPC Live with Eva McSwagger from Snapper Magee’s.

  • Episode 13: Chad Chastain of Lakeland Punk Rock Flea Market

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore, punk, ska, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands across DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows. I've had the privilege of working with amazing talent in the scene.

    My guest today is Chad Chastain, the force behind Lakeland Punk Rock Flea Market, an event that brings together artists, vinyl collectors, zine makers, DIY vendors, and more.

    And I don’t think I’m ever going to use a teleprompter ever again. Holy hell, that was fast. I thought I already did it fast anyway. I was like, okay, they’re not giving me any pause at a break. I’m sure there’s a setting for how fast I want it to go, and that was not what I wanted.

    Well, we did it. Lesson learned.

    Buddy, thank you so much for coming on. It’s so great to see you. Obviously, you play in a band, but we’re not going to talk about that at all. We’re going to focus on what you’re doing here because I’m trying to do something similar. This is a double-whammy call for me. Not only do I get to highlight the great work you’re doing, but I also get to pick your brain so I can learn how to do something like that up here in the Kingston, New York area.

    Tell me a little bit about Lakeland Punk Rock Flea Market. How long has it been going on? I feel like it has been at least five years, maybe more.

    Chad:
    Yeah, 2019. It started in 2019. I think it was September of 2019. It could have been March. COVID kind of threw off my mental timeline.

    It’s been going on around five years. This March 30th will be the 20th punk rock flea market that I’ve thrown, and the 10th one in Lakeland.

    Scott:
    The 20th punk rock flea market. Okay. Are you a businessman in general? Is that your day job? Do you have a business skill set, or is this something where you just said, I’m going to fucking do this?

    Chad:
    Like you, man, I’ve been booking shows since I was 15 or 16. I’ve worked in recording studios. I’ve run venues. I’ve been every member of every kind of band you can be in. I’ve been doing concerts or events since 1997.

    But no, I am not a business guy. I never wanted to be my own boss. I always wanted to be a cog in a machine that just takes a paycheck and goes home.

    My wife made me make this legal. So it is an LLC, which I preferred being under the table because that was just a little more comfortable in my head.

    Scott:
    I understand. I was told to do the exact same thing by my wife last year.

    Chad:
    Yeah. So it is a business, but I don’t function as a business.

    Scott:
    So the punk rock flea market started in 2019. What made you start the one in Lakeland? Did you see a gap? Was there a need?

    Chad:
    The punk rock flea market for me started in 2019. I first heard about them online from Trenton, New Jersey. That was the first one I heard about. I thought it sounded cool.

    I felt like I could take my experience running shows and combine that with my wife’s experience running art festivals. She’s been helping run art festivals and running her own for 10 or 15 years or more, which means I’ve also had to help run them with her.

    So I took my knowledge from that and from shows and merged the two. I have major OCD and super people-pleasing problems. I want everyone to like me, and I want everyone to be happy. If you combine that with running an event, maybe I do a pretty good job of making sure everyone has a good time.

    Scott:
    I played there with my band and had a blast. My family came out, and it was a joy. I miss having that kind of experience since I moved up here. You have yours, and there’s also the East Coast Punk Rock Flea Market out in Fort Pierce, right?

    Chad:
    Yeah, Fort Pierce. That’s my buddy.

    Scott:
    The Trenton one is huge, but it’s expensive and hard to get into. You did yours so well. I did one in Easton, Pennsylvania called Mall Punks. It was right down the street from my mom’s house, so I figured I’d visit her, bring my kid, and have a good time.

    I got a prime setup next to the record store and right next to the stage where the bands were playing. Then I looked around and saw candles and tissue box koozies. I was like, where’s the punk rock in this punk rock flea market? But the benefit was that I was the only punk rock thing there, so I made hundreds and hundreds of dollars because people came out and realized I was it. I was at the entrance and was like, walk around, but if you want anything punk rock, you have to come back to me.

    Chad:
    Yeah. I don’t ever want to be considered similar to Indie Flea or those hipster flea market events. Punk rock is definitely part of what I do, but there are some candle vendors. I just find the punk rock ones, the counterculture and edgy ones.

    Scott:
    I’m talking about the kind of market where my mom could walk around and go, isn’t that a nice doily?

    Chad:
    Right. But I think that’s part of it too. We’re older. I’m 44. I have two kids who are teenagers. My wife is not punk rock. She likes some punk stuff. My mom and mother-in-law are not punk rock, but they’ve all come and had a good time.

    Every punk rock guy has a wife and kids, or every punk rock girl has a boyfriend who is not into punk rock. I want the event to be somewhat enjoyable for everyone involved, not just the punk guy.

    Scott:
    My kids have no interest in punk rock. None whatsoever. They don’t want to come to my shows. They don’t want to listen to my bands. They can’t name the bands I like, even though all I do is wear punk rock T-shirts. I have posters all over my record room, and they still can’t name a band I like.

    But they went through your thing and had a great time.

    Tell me the story of the first one. The good, the bad, and the ugly. How did the first one come about?

    Chad:
    I was nervous. I’m a weird punk guy. I fall in the Minor Threat world. I don’t drink alcohol. My punk rock ethos is associated with everything Minor Threat and Fugazi instilled in me: do it as cheaply as possible, and make it affordable for kids and adults.

    But I’ve been doing shows at all-ages venues for years, and I’ve watched those venues shut down left and right because they don’t have the business to support them. Alcohol is often necessary. If you’re throwing a party, which is kind of what we’re doing here, you need something that makes people stay and enjoy themselves.

    I had to find a location. The rule is location, location, location. We have this awesome brewery in downtown Lakeland right on the lake. The owner is open-minded, and he was cool with letting me take a gamble. He knew I wasn’t making any money from it. I was doing it for free, but potentially he could make money.

    Scott:
    People come in and buy his beers. Somebody might come back another day and buy more beers. They might get beer to go. It’s the same thing when I do shows at a venue in Kingston. I’m like, what’s the negative for you? I book the bands. I hire the sound guy. I hire the door person. I do the physical promotion and social media promotion. On a Sunday when you normally have nobody between five and nine, I bring in 100 people. What’s your downside?

    Chad:
    Same. When I approached Dan at Swan Brewing, I asked what his non-busy time was. He pulled out his laptop right there and said the end of September was pretty dead. I asked what day of the week. He said Sundays always suck. So I said, okay, let’s do a Sunday.

    For the first one, I had 24 vendors and three bands. I covered food. That was it. Three bands and 24 vendors.

    Scott:
    Did you have to block off streets then, or did that come later?

    Chad:
    That came later. That didn’t happen until the third one. Initially it was just in his square footage, then we expanded to take over his parking lot. So he had no parking that day, which was a big gamble for him. But after that paid off, he said, fuck it, let’s rent out the road.

    Scott:
    Was it difficult to rent out the road? Did the city fight you at all?

    Chad:
    I live in Polk County, Florida, so the city is very good old boy and very conservative, which fuck that. But they love what I do because it benefits the downtown area. They’ve been very open to it every step of the way.

    It’s a pretty simple process to rent out the road, as long as you’re not trying to rent out a main road. That would be impossible. I’m renting out side roads, so it only costs about $35 to rent the road.

    Scott:
    How many people show up now? When I went, there were a lot of people. Do you have enough people that you need to rent additional porta-johns? Are people waiting in line for 30 minutes to use the bathroom?

    Chad:
    We rent porta-potties just because we might need them. Realistically, it’s hot as shit every time we do it, so no one wants to use them. The women’s bathroom forms a 30-person line. So me or one of my guys will walk up and shut down the men’s bathroom and say, for right now, this is two women’s bathrooms, and the guys have to wait. That way we can let the ladies do what they need to do.

    Scott:
    Hats off to you. That’s fucking great.

    Chad:
    We still have the porta-potties. If you really, really have to go, they’re available.

    The first time we did it, I expected maybe 200 people to show up. I think we had close to 900 people. It was way bigger than I expected. After that, it just blew up. Last time, we had just under 4,000 people throughout the day.

    Scott:
    That is amazing. It’s free, right? You just walk in. I’m all about maintaining equity and making sure everybody can come.

    So where do the funds come from? The venue only has so much. Is it vendor fees? I’ve done flea markets and festivals, and I’ve paid to have a vending table. But knowing you, I know you don’t want to charge too much because you don’t want to shut down a new business that just wants to come out and try something. How do you handle that?

    Chad:
    Every dollar that comes through my hands is a vendor fee. That’s the only place I make any money from.

    It started out where I charged about $30 for a table. Then that increased because I wanted to spend more on promotion. Then it increased because I had to hire police officers. Then it increased because I needed porta-potties. Now I’m an LLC, so I have to get event insurance and do state filings. My costs keep going up.

    A 10x10 booth space is usually about $100, sometimes $110 or $120 depending on outstanding expenses. A food truck might be more because they take up about three booth spaces.

    I hate that we have to charge that much, but every vendor that has vended with me says they would pay that and more to be part of the event because of what we do.

    Scott:
    As someone who vends at festivals, $100 is low. It’s very rare that I pay less than $100 to vend anywhere.

    Chad:
    My buddy did the NOFX farewell show in Orlando, and I think the booth for that one-day event was $770. He had to purchase additional insurance on top of that, and he had to hire a guy to help him all day. So he was about $1,000 in the hole.

    Scott:
    Usually I have to supply my own pop-up tent and table. Sometimes power isn’t there, so if I want people to listen to records on a record player, I need my own power source, which I don’t usually worry about because the generator would be too loud. Usually you just get the space and nothing else is provided.

    Chad:
    That’s kind of what we do. There are maybe two or three spots where we can offer electricity, but usually I don’t even say that because as soon as I tell one person, the person next to them is jealous.

    Scott:
    Do vendors get free beers or anything like that?

    Chad:
    They don’t get free beers. But for all the vendors, I buy about 10 cases of water and around $200 worth of snacks. Me and my kids walk around the event all day handing out free waters and snacks for all the vendors. So they are getting fed. We also offer to watch their booth if they need to go to the bathroom or anything like that.

    Scott:
    You mentioned you and your kids. How many vendors do you have at this point?

    Chad:
    For this next one, I believe 77.

    Scott:
    You and your two kids do not seem like enough to walk around and do all that. Do you have a hired staff or volunteer staff? Because your thing is already free, so what are people getting in exchange for volunteering?

    Chad:
    From the vendor fees, I pay a few staff people. My kids get a little bit of money, and they love that. My singer from The Kutoffs runs the stage. My bass player is kind of my number two guy, so he helps me do everything. Their girlfriends also help out. I pay everyone as much as I comfortably can, and that all comes from vendor fees.

    They get a free event T-shirt. We usually have live screen printing at the events. I take care of my people.

    Scott:
    How do you find all these vendors? I assume in the beginning you had to find them, but now it’s probably like me doing shows in Kingston. At first I had to find bands, and now bands email me all the time asking to get on my once-a-month shows. I’m like, I can only have so many bands.

    Chad:
    I enjoy going to flea markets and events, so I’m already going to some kind of event every other weekend on my own. Usually you go to an event and there will be one weirdo vendor who stands out. They’re usually our kind of people. If they don’t fit in there, they definitely fit in over here.

    I’m not limiting it to just punk rock. I’m looking at whether they are counterculture, edgy, and LGBTQ accepting. That’s a big thing for me. If they’re weird at other markets, they’re perfect for me.

    Scott:
    We have oddities and obscurities shops up here. That’s not punk rock, but it’s within that counterculture framework. That would be fabulous.

    Do vendors apply? How do you manage the process? Let’s assume you have 70 vendors and double that apply. Who looks through each one and decides who gets to come? Do you make sure you have legacy people and new people?

    Chad:
    In Lakeland I do it twice a year, but I also do it twice a year in Bradenton. I’ve done St. Pete a couple times. I used to do a Christmas one, and now I’m talking about doing a Sanford one too. So usually it’s five to six times a year.

    Scott:
    How? You have a job. You’re married with two kids. You’re potentially doing six punk rock flea markets a year, each with bands and hundreds of vendors to consider.

    Chad:
    If you talk to other people who throw markets, they do applications. I don’t. I treat it more like booking a band. I have an Excel spreadsheet with all the vendors, and that list is over 500 names now. My band list is around 200 for this.

    I also have a band spreadsheet with about 2,000 bands, venues, and promoters that I’ve been keeping for years. That lets me help bands book tours and find bands coming through.

    Scott:
    I’m glad we are on the same OCD track of keeping spreadsheets.

    Chad:
    That’s where it starts. I have that list, and I have my legacy people. There are some vendors like Felinious, who does weird cat-themed T-shirts. DOA does horror-themed stuff. Dark Cycle does weird animals on bicycles. There are record vendors too.

    Those people are my buds. We would hang out even if we weren’t doing markets. They’re pretty much going to get an invite every single time because I trust them.

    When I’m booking a band, I start with who the big support is. Who is the local or regional band that is going to be the staple for the show? Then I build around that. The market is kind of the same. I need a strong T-shirt vendor, a strong record vendor, someone doing oddities or weird stuff, a jewelry vendor, and then I build out from there.

    Scott:
    You try to make sure there is a diversity of stuff going on.

    How far away do bands travel? Do you stick within Florida, or do you go outside of that?

    Chad:
    For the most part, I’ve always stuck to Florida only. But this next one in Lakeland, I have a band coming down from Atlanta. That will be my first out-of-state band for a punk flea.

    Scott:
    What band?

    Chad:
    Forsaken Profits.

    Scott:
    I love those guys. I can think of three bands in Atlanta: Billy Batts and the Made Men, Gas Station Boner Pills, and Forsaken Profits.

    Chad:
    The Forsaken Profits guys messaged me about a year ago. I actually found them through Skateopia, the documentary about skateboarding. That’s where I first discovered them. Then they messaged me like a month later saying they wanted to do it. I was like, really? You want to drive from Atlanta to here? Okay.

    Scott:
    Call In Dead used to play with them a bunch back in the day.

    How far do vendors travel? I’ll drive eight hours for a good flea market. I’ll leave the night before, get a hotel, and be ready in the morning. How far do your vendors travel?

    Chad:
    Vendors drive farther. I have one vendor who comes down from Savannah almost every time. I’ve had North Carolina, Richmond, Virginia, and Texas. They’re willing to drive because they’re weirdos in a normal market, but in my market they’re accepted. They’re happy to drive out of their way to do one.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. I could get down there. I think it’s 17 hours for me. I would just have to drive 12 or 14 hours one day and finish the next day. Or I could fly down, but carrying a suitcase full of records is heavy and dangerous. Records are tricky.

    I see people vending at Fest, and they say they shipped records down last year and just keep them with friends in Florida. Then every year they bring newer records with them. That makes sense if you know you’re going to do it every year.

    Chad:
    I feel guilty when someone from that far away wants to come do one of my events because I don’t want to disappoint them. I want them to have a good day. But for the most part, everyone has one of their best days.

    Scott:
    As a vendor, I just ask to sell anything. I can usually sell a couple things at a show, but I’m not very good at standing by my records at a show. At flea markets or festivals, like last year at Camp Punksylvania, I couldn’t find anyone who wanted a free ticket to help me. So I would leave a sign that said, “I’m watching a band or going to the bathroom. If you want to buy something, here’s my Venmo, PayPal, and Cash App. Just put it in the comments.”

    Then I’d be watching a band and see a notification. Oh look, someone just bought a record. Nice.

    Chad:
    I feel like that only exists in the punk world. If you were at a Metallica show and the merch guy walked away to go to the bathroom, people are stealing all that stuff.

    Scott:
    In all the years I’ve walked away from merch tables, I can think of one time someone stole a hat or beanie when one of my bands was on tour. Someone told me, and I was like, okay. They liked our band so much they took the chance of stealing something, and now they’re going to wear it. Maybe they’ll tell the story of how they loved us so much they had to steal it. Great. Tell that story.

    Chad:
    I’m always worried about leaving the merch bin with cash and stuff. But yeah, you can trust a punk guy for some reason. I don’t know why.

    Scott:
    It’s just innate. If someone really needed to steal a singular record, I would let it go. It’s not like they’re going to grab my entire boxes and run off with 50 records. They’re heavy.

    Chad:
    I regret having so much band merch. It’s so much to carry around. I’m the drummer, so I have to carry all the drums, and now we have a stupid amount of merch.

    Scott:
    They wanted me to backline last night, and I was like, I can bring my drums if I have to, but I already have to bring three merch tables, all my own merch, and all the stuff for working the door. I would rather not also carry in drums that I’m not playing. If I was playing them, that would be one thing. But I know I’ll be the person left breaking them down at the end of the night.

    Everyone helps carry drums in, but no one helps break them down and carry them out. And someone is going to lose a screw, a stand piece, or the top of the hi-hat.

    Chad:
    Cymbals sound better without the screw on top.

    Scott:
    I 100% disagree. I want the wing nuts on top of my stands. I hit really hard, and I think they’ll fall off. People take them off and put them on a guitar head, and I’m just watching like, fine, it’s fine.

    Chad:
    That’s another thing we do at the punk flea. We backline the whole stage. That’s my drum kit, usually my stands and cymbals too, and my bass cab. I don’t really mind. It’s like merch. Nothing has ever been stolen. There’s always the potential for something to break, but I don’t have a problem lending cymbals because if it broke when they hit it, it was probably going to break soon anyway.

    Scott:
    I lost my cymbals once and had to meet up with Gary from Soji in Philly. He picked them up from the venue for me, and when I was visiting my mom in Pennsylvania, he met me halfway from Philly to Easton and dropped off the cymbals. He also threw in a Trash Knife T-shirt and some Dead Milkmen 7-inches because he knows I love the Dead Milkmen.

    Chad:
    That’s awesome.

    Scott:
    If you need gear for a studio or show, you can do what I call a Walmart rental, but at Guitar Center. Buy the gear, keep the receipt, use it, and return it.

    Chad:
    I used to manage Guitar Center back in the day. Aaron from Underoath came in once. He was a hard hitter. This was before they were a big deal. He’d come in and pound the shit out of the drums to the point that we would ask him to leave.

    After they got bigger, he came back and bought like $3,000 worth of cymbals because he was recording another band. I got excited because I thought it would be a good commission. Then he returned them a week later. He said, yeah, we’re not keeping any of this. I learned a lesson.

    Scott:
    I get it. When I was 19, I applied to be assistant manager at my job. I didn’t have any nice clothes or ties, so I went to Ross or Marshall’s and bought stuff. I was like, if I get the job, I’ll keep it. If I don’t, I’ll return it. As soon as I got home, I took it off, made sure it wasn’t stained, and hung it up.

    Chad:
    I tell bands to do that. If you’re going in the studio, buy your dream gear, record with it, then return it.

    Scott:
    I wouldn’t do it to a small local store, but I’ve debated asking local music stores about sponsorship. Maybe instead of cash sponsorship, they sponsor by providing a backline. Do you get sponsors for yours?

    Chad:
    I’ve never had a sponsor. I do supporters. I feel weird taking money from someone. It’s the guilt thing. But there are people who will offer to backline the stage for free if you put their name on the poster or print a banner with their name on it.

    My supporters are usually things like an LGBT organization that I fundraise for, so they make money through me. There are animal organizations where I’ll give them a free booth. My buddy runs a horror convention called Spookala in Tampa and Ocala. He supports it by giving me free tickets to Spookala, and I go hang out.

    Scott:
    I’m doing my first Rally in the Valley in April to celebrate the record label’s four years. I’m finding sponsors. Danger Room Recording Services, who mixes and masters 90% of my stuff, said he’ll give me the equivalent of the sponsor price in free mixing and mastering. That’s fine with me. I’ll take a service. I’m putting him on banners, flyers, and social media. It’s not that different from your idea of supporters.

    Chad:
    I think there’s probably some legality about taking money. Now that we’re LLCs, if I accept $500 from an organization, where does that go? Instead of dealing with that, I’d rather have someone loan me gear or help in some other way. My wife runs a nonprofit for her art festivals, and she knows all this stuff. I don’t want to.

    Scott:
    I don’t either. If I don’t do it officially, I’m not sending an invoice or having them fill out a form. It’s me reaching out to friends saying, hey, you’re a record label like me and I’ve sponsored your stuff. Can you sponsor my stuff? It’s all squishy back and forth.

    What’s going on with the next one? It’s March 30, right?

    Chad:
    Yeah, March 30th. It’s the 10th Lakeland one. I know it’s going to be our biggest one. Like I said, I think there are 77 vendors. We rent out two roads now. We bring in a stage, a big PA system, and everything. It’s bigger than I wanted it to be, but we’re at that point.

    I feel like it crosses into something bigger, where maybe I should be doing more than I currently do. Everything I do is still kind of honor system and handshake.

    Scott:
    I understand. I do a lot like that with records. We put out records together. I didn’t have you sign anything. It was just understood we would take care of each other.

    Chad:
    Part of me thought during that whole process with you that it was going to backfire, like you weren’t going to do it. Then I started seeing other bands get records, and they turned out cool. Then ours happened, and it was awesome.

    Scott:
    I’ve had a couple bands decide they don’t want to do it after I record, which is fine. I tell them they can have the recordings and do what they want with them. If they don’t want to put a record out with me, just note that I recorded them, or I’ll delete them forever.

    The only time I’ve gotten irritated is when a band says they want to do it, I pay to mix and master it, and then they back out. One band asked me to wait a couple months, then said they went into the studio and spent all their money, so they couldn’t be part of it anymore. I was like, but you asked me to do this. You literally came to me.

    Chad:
    That sucks.

    With ours, I wouldn’t have changed anything. I wish when we played that show with you, we had played better. Maybe not sped the songs up so much.

    Scott:
    Only you hear that. I hear that on studio stuff too. My money was always limited. I’d hear a fill and think, that’s not what I wanted to do there, but I don’t have time to redo the drum tracks. That fill is going to be on the record because I am not redoing the whole song just so I can hit the snare instead of the floor tom like I meant to. It’s done.

    I’ve started recording festivals. I recorded at Camp Punksylvania and Florida Underground Fest. Maybe we should talk about doing a Lakeland Punk Rock Flea Market compilation. Maybe I’ll fly down, vend, and record at the same time.

    Chad:
    That has been discussed in my head. I have conversations with myself: could this work? Yes, it could. I like the idea. Then I feel guilty because now Scott has to fly and spend money on this.

    Scott:
    It’s hard because the things we do are not inherently money makers. The only way I could really make money off it is if I made other people foot more of the bill than they can probably handle. I try really hard not to do that.

    Chad:
    That’s just not my vision. I want it to be equitable.

    Scott:
    It’s hard to be equitable and not lose your shirt. I keep telling my wife I would do this for a loss. I don’t need to profit from it. I booked shows for 20 years and never made any money. I think the only thing I ever got was a microphone.

    Last night’s show, I was probably down money. But there was a band from Philly I loved called Trash Boy. If I wanted to see them in Philly, I’d have to drive three or four hours, probably get a hotel, pay for gas, beers, and everything else. I’d be out $300. If I bring them here and see them 10 minutes from home, help out other bands, have a good time, meet bands I might want to work with later, and advertise my label by promoting the show, I don’t see it as a negative.

    Chad:
    You did so much for us on that show too. You hired an artist for the poster. There was so much that impressed me.

    Scott:
    I try really hard to make each event special, which is why I try not to do too many in a row. My bandwidth gets tired. I’m doing two shows this week, and technically a third that’s a benefit for Punk Island, but there are two other promoters on that. A buddy asked me to do another show for him on Friday, and I said no. I’ll put you in contact with someone who can help, and I’ll be at your show, but I cannot promote four shows in one week.

    What are the biggest highs and lows of doing this?

    Chad:
    I’m tired afterward. I’m dead. But I’m a people person, so I get energy from doing these events. No one else I know does. I spend all my time making sure the event is going to go well, and it’s physically draining, but I’m re-energized by it. My wife, my bass player, and everyone else involved are dead afterward. They don’t want to leave the house the next day. I’m like, okay, let’s go out to eat. Let’s go do something.

    Scott:
    If I didn’t have errands today, I would have been in Kingston hanging up posters for my next show in March. I have them ready. Sunday, Monday done. Next Sunday, Monday, one month away. Let’s go.

    Chad:
    The hardest part for me is graphic design. I do almost all the graphic design for my online stuff. I do a vendor spotlight for every single vendor. I make a poster for every vendor, band, supporter, or sponsor. So I make one for 70, sometimes 90, different people involved.

    I’ve been working on them for the last two weeks, and I’m only at 46. I’ve got 84 to make for this one. That’s draining.

    Scott:
    Do they send you photos, and then you put them into a frame like Fest or Punk Island? Or do you pull photos because you don’t trust them to send good ones?

    Chad:
    Both. They send bad photos. I crop them and relight them. Sometimes I go to their social media page and find other photos. This has backfired a couple times because I’ve grabbed a photo, and then the band messages me like, hey, that guy is not in the band anymore. Take that photo down. I’m like, well, you take it down first. I got it from your page.

    Scott:
    That’s a real concern. I was talking to a band’s bass player and mentioned their voice, and they said, that’s not me. That was the old drummer singing that song. I was like, how would I know?

    That’s a lot of work. You write the copy too, right?

    Chad:
    Yeah.

    Scott:
    Is it Instagram and Facebook, or do you focus on Instagram?

    Chad:
    Instagram is better than Facebook, but I use both. For event promotion, you go through Meta Business Suite, and that can promote to both. You can track numbers on Facebook better. For the event page, I can see that 6,000 people say they’re going to come. Those are measurable numbers.

    On Instagram, 2,000 people might like it, but I don’t know what that means. They could be in Alaska. But for finding vendors and maintaining relationships, Instagram is way better. Facebook is measurable.

    Scott:
    My problem with Instagram is that it’s not easy to organize and search through past messages. I started using specific names for all my group chats with bands for shows, so I can find them again when they get buried. I try flagging stuff too, but I’m used to Microsoft Outlook, where I could flag things for reminders and have them pop up. Instagram doesn’t have that functionality, but 90% of my communication with bands is on Instagram.

    Chad:
    That might be a benefit of having OCD. I’m good about organizing and maintaining that stuff, but it still mentally drains me. Every now and then, something falls through the cracks, and because I’m not pleasing that person, I feel heartbroken.

    Scott:
    Do you have a set form that you send out to bands? I have a Google Doc with everything explained. I make minor variations for each show or start time, but I plug it in. I even save all my hashtags on a Google Doc called hashtags, grouped by category, so I don’t have to retype them every time I do an Instagram post.

    Chad:
    You do it way better than me. However, from experience working with that document you send, it’s overwhelming. It was like five pages. We were scared to death. Are we missing something? Are we doing this right? It made sense, but it was a lot.

    I do have stuff saved. Every time, I use what I did on the last one and change the address and date.

    Scott:
    It makes sense to keep it organized and not repeat work if you can help it.

    Chad:
    A couple years ago, a friend of mine named Aaron, who was one of my vendors, called me while I was on vacation. He said he was thinking about doing a punk rock flea market in Fort Pierce and asked if I had a few minutes to talk.

    I don’t want to take credit for what he does. It’s incredible and similar but different. But I loved that he reached out. I wanted to be clear that I don’t ever want there to be a turf war. If you do it well and I do it well, we make everyone else’s better. I just want the Central Florida scene to be better.

    When someone says they want to do a punk rock flea market or similar event, I tell them to reach out. I’ll tell you all my secrets. None of them are secrets. I want yours to do well, and I want to be part of it. I just want it to succeed.

    Some people get turfy, but I’m not that. I believe rising tides lift all boats.

    Scott:
    If someone else started doing shows at the same venue where I do shows, I wouldn’t see that as negative. I’d think, great. More people making people think of this venue as the place to see hardcore, punk, ska, and metal. More.

    Chad:
    Good competition is good. If his was better than mine, then I just have to work harder.

    Scott:
    I’m constantly learning and adjusting. I have flyers made, and now I go to two or three different people because I can’t keep asking the same person. They have other things to do, and they’re such nice people that they don’t charge me much. Usually it’s $30, sometimes $50. But it’s not their full-time job. They love punk rock and offer to do flyers. I love that, but I don’t want to bother them every two weeks.

    Chad:
    I still do print posters and hang them up, but there are fewer and fewer places where you can hang posters. And because my event has gotten popular, people collect them, so they take them down.

    Scott:
    I do 18x24s and 11x17s. The 18x24s will even get ripped down inside the venue. The first time I spent a couple hundred dollars on posters, I was like, motherfucker, that cost me money.

    Adam from Say-10 Records sent me a website called Bizay, B-I-Z-A-Y. I can order 25 posters for like 30 bucks. You just have to wait two weeks. Then I resold the ones I didn’t hang up for $5 each at the show.

    Chad:
    I usually print 40 or 50 11x17 posters. There are only like 15 places in town where you can hang them up, so I hang up two. That way if someone wants to take one, take it, but leave the other one.

    Scott:
    Up here we have weather. We get snow and rain, and sometimes I’m not sure if a flyer got torn down or if the weather destroyed it. Back in the day, people would just poster over poster until bulletin boards were an inch thick.

    Chad:
    There are a couple like that. My wife hates it. When I go around, especially in New Paltz where there are telephone poles, I try really hard to rip down old ones that are out of date. Only out of date. I never rip down active flyers. I shove them in my hoodie pocket and throw them away later. I try to clean it up because I know it bothers her. I never staple over anything still active. I hate when people do that.

    Scott:
    You mentioned staff. Now that you’re an LLC, do you have to send them paychecks? If you don’t want to share this, we can cut it.

    Chad:
    Staff is a weird word. I have a couple people I pay, but it’s not a check. I’ve never paid anyone a check, except to charity. I send money through Venmo or Cash App, but I keep it all on record.

    My tax guy is the guitarist in Human Error, which is a really good punk band out of St. Pete. I’ve asked him what I need to do, and I follow his steps. None of them make enough money for it to have a real impact.

    Scott:
    I get that. If the IRS came after us for losing money on these small things, that would be wild.

    Besides being a social studies teacher, I was a DEI facilitator in Florida, of all places. My PhD is about how to teach marginalized history. So I’m basically their number one enemy.

    Chad:
    That’s a whole other subject right there.

    Scott:
    Even up here, I’ve had to make a post about the values of DCxPC because I’ve run into situations where a singular member of a band, on their personal posts, shows they are not someone who represents the values I want to give a stage to.

    Chad:
    I keep that in mind too. We’re down here in Central Florida, and there are a lot of Trump people around. They know punk rock generally does not like Trump, and it shouldn’t. Let’s be honest, it shouldn’t.

    There are some vendors with a certain conservative mind. I told one, do not wear your MAGA hat. I don’t want to have to protect you from getting jumped at my event. Not that it would happen, but he doesn’t come back anymore.

    There have been a couple vendors where I’m like, I’m never inviting you back because of some posts you made. I try to not have politics be part of it, but...

    Scott:
    At a certain point, it goes beyond policy. We’re not discussing energy policy or the benefits of a flat tax. We’re discussing human dignity. That goes beyond what I’m willing to compromise on. This is not a case of having different points of view. If you consider certain people to be mentally ill or not fully human, I can’t.

    Chad:
    I’ve had to cross that path with a couple vendors. It’s a weird conversation to get to. I usually end it with, I think it would be best if you go to a different market.

    Scott:
    That’s fair. Nobody wants to go where they are not welcome, but you want to have a welcoming place. If someone asks why they can’t be welcome with a MAGA hat, it’s because the MAGA hat represents unwelcomeness. If you don’t see that, that’s an inherent problem in your understanding of the world.

    Chad:
    I think this is a running joke, but the scarier a guy looks, the nicer or more teddy bear-like they are. Like black metal guys with long hair are generally super, super nice. Punk rock is in that spectrum too. For the most part, the people who come to these events are super cool. It’s more like if a guy has a tucked-in shirt and boots on, he’s probably not comfortable here.

    Scott:
    Call In Dead played a show in Orlando, and my principal at my school came out and brought her 18-year-old son. He went up and talked to Jaeh, our first singer, who is covered in tattoos from his neck to the tips of his fingers.

    Later, I asked what her son thought of the show. She said he thought we had a lot of energy and it wasn’t really his thing, but he was most impressed with Jaeh. He told her, “Mom, I would never walk up and talk to a guy who looked like that, but he was so kind and considerate and just the nicest person ever.”

    She said that was more important than anything else that happened at the show. He realized that even though my singer looked scary with facial piercings and tattoos everywhere, he was just a really nice guy.

    Chad:
    That happens so many times. When I was a kid, I made fun of Juggalos and thought it was stupid. As I got older, I still don’t like the music, but every Juggalo I’ve gotten to know has been the nicest person.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I used to be in the Christian scene. I played drums at churches because you couldn’t do it anywhere else. I made a lot of friends there, and one of the bands that played a previous punk rock flea market came from that church scene. The singer was a worship leader, and the guitarist was in the worship band.

    They came to me and said they wanted to play the flea market. They’re in a pop punk band now. I said, you know it’s not really that conservative. They said, don’t worry. We’re not in the same boat we once were. One of them said they had a family member come out, and their church and old communities were no longer accepting. As they stepped back and realized they weren’t accepted in the community they’d been part of their whole lives, they realized the punk rock community was more accepting.

    It’s cool to see punk rock benefit even that section.

    Scott:
    I’m putting out a record by Ninety Pound Wuss, and they were on Tooth & Nail. They would have been considered a Christian hardcore punk band back in the day. Now Jeff, the lead singer, has been vocally clear that even if members still maintain their faith, their faith is no longer rooted in that kind of criticism and closed-mindedness toward other people.

    Chad:
    It’s awesome to know so many of my former church friends are stepping into our world a little bit and realizing it’s more loving and accepting.

    Scott:
    The bass player in Call In Dead, Mike, was brought up in a super Christian fundamentalist household. All he listened to growing up was Christian music, even Christian punk rock. That eventually gave him access to non-Christian punk rock.

    Back in the day, Christian punk rock was like the Walmart brand of everything. If you like this band, you’ll like MXPX. But at some point, some of those bands dropped the Christian moniker, and some are actually pretty solid bands now.

    I did a show for a Christian pop punk band called Last Tuesday in Baltimore around 2005 or 2006. Super nice guys. Other than the Christian fish tattoo on one guy’s forearm, I wouldn’t have known they were Christian. Their lyrics were vague enough that they could be anything. As long as you are open-minded to the broader community that I love and support, I don’t care what you think about how the world was created. That doesn’t matter to me.

    Chad:
    Yeah, probably around the same time. They were great.

    Scott:
    Are there any new bands playing the next flea market that you haven’t seen before and are super stoked to see?

    Chad:
    You threw me off there. There’s a lot in my head. You Vandal out of Gainesville is playing, and they are super awesome. My buddies Low Season from St. Pete are coming up. We’ve done a couple comps with them. They’re good.

    There’s a lot because I’ve already booked the Bradenton one in April too. I’m working on another event as well. There’s so much in my head that I’m not prepared to answer that question.

    Scott:
    Have you ever considered hiring yourself out as an event planner for punk rock flea markets around the country?

    Chad:
    No.

    Scott:
    What if a good friend said, I’ll pay you to help me do this?

    Chad:
    I’m not going to fly up there.

    Scott:
    I’d fly you up here.

    But I don’t want to take up too much more of your day. I know you got off work and jumped right on this podcast. Having been at your flea markets, and knowing how hard it is to run shows, you make everything seem seamless and effortless. You provide a place that is really special and important for fans, bands, and vendors. I can’t thank you enough for what you do, and I can’t thank you enough for coming on here to talk to me and everyone listening or watching about all the dope shit you do.

    Chad:
    Right back at you. There is so much that DCxPC has done that has blown me away. With my shitty little punk band, you put me on vinyl. I had never been on vinyl before. That was a check off a dream list that I thought wouldn’t happen. So thank you.

    My favorite shirt is funny too. You were texting me the other day about this interview, and I’m sitting in Orlando across the street from Will’s Pub and Uncle Lou’s wearing your goddamn shirt. You’re asking me questions about the punk rock flea market, and I’m like, okay, let me snap a picture. I’m sitting right here, dude.

    Scott:
    I loved that. That meant a lot to me.

    Chad:
    I wear that shirt all the time. It’s in the dirty clothes right now because I was wearing it again yesterday.

    I don’t like to attach my name or face to what I do with the punk rock flea market. I like to keep it in the background because I’m a drummer by trade, and we’re always in the background. I feel weird accepting compliments or being the person out front.

    Scott:
    You should take it because what you’ve done and what you’re doing is phenomenal. To do it the way you’re doing it, with kindness, equity, and fairness toward others, you should accept that. Ian MacKaye would be proud of you.

    Chad:
    I saw Ian MacKaye, not with Minor Threat, but with Fugazi on one of their final tours. I lived in Arkansas, and I saw them play at Hendrix College. It was one of the best shows I’ve ever seen.

    Scott:
    They’re phenomenal. I’ve seen them several times. I listen to the podcast Fugazi A to Z, which goes through every song. It’s a great podcast. I go to the Fugazi live series website and listen to shows there. It’s one of my favorite places to just listen to music.

    Chad:
    Are they able to put out those recordings?

    Scott:
    I think they could, but they’re just on the website instead. It’s Fugazi. They’re not trying to make a buck off everything.

    Chad:
    Ian is my true north. Everything I do in punk rock, or really in general, I think, what would Ian MacKaye do? My true south is, what would my piece-of-shit dad do?

    Scott:
    The only thing that makes me feel guilty is that I would love to do all-ages shows. I’m always talking about how there are no all-ages shows, and then I’m doing shows at a bar that doesn’t have food, so it has to be 21 and up.

    I am doing an all-ages show this Thursday, so I try. But there aren’t many venues where I can do that consistently. Growing up in DC, where everything was all ages, it kills me not to have that. But I also don’t want to not do things just because I can’t do them perfectly. I don’t want the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

    Chad:
    I don’t know how the breweries I work with are able to make the events all ages, but all my punk fleas are all ages. I love that. It’s kind of a dream come true that I’m able to do shows at this level all ages.

    Scott:
    I think if I keep searching, eventually I’ll figure it out. I’ve only been here two years, so it takes time to get the feel of the land.

    Chad:
    Start small. Start really small and do it really well small. I don’t make it all about the shows or all about the market. I try to make it evenly both. It is a punk show, but it is also this market. Even if you’re the punk guy, your wife is going to have a good time. Your kids are going to have a good time.

    Scott:
    All right, so we’re going to wrap this up. Is there a song I can play at the end? I can play a Kutoffs song if you’d like. Or do you have a punk rock flea market theme song?

    Chad:
    I do have a punk rock flea market theme song. It’s on all our old promo stuff. Last time The Kutoffs recorded, I said, hey, let’s track another song, and that’s what it is.

    Scott:
    You can use that one, or send me whatever you want. Send me an image, whether it’s your band or the flea market, and anyone watching on YouTube will see the image and hear your rad-ass song.

    Chad:
    Sure, I’ll send it to you. I’ve got two songs, actually.

    Scott:
    Send me two fucking songs. We’ll do two. Everyone listening, just know you’re getting two fucking songs instead of one outro song.

    Chad:
    I’ll email them to you.

    Scott:
    Thank you everybody for listening. Have a great night, a great day, whatever it is you’re doing. Thank you, Chad, again. I hope you come back and listen and watch again in the future.

  • Episode 12: Andy Pohl of Sell the Heart Records

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore, punk, ska, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands across DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows. I've had the privilege of working with a lot of amazing talent, such as our guest today, Andy Pohl of Sell the Heart Records, a prolific label that specializes in good fucking music.

    You can call it whatever you want by the end of this, but trust me, it's solid.

    I first connected with Andy online through a record label support group called Scene to Scene. Love you all. We later met in person at O+ Festival when his band was playing. Since then, we've kept in touch at Fest, Camp Punksylvania, and of course through text and online conversations.

    If your idea of a record label is some asshole ripping off artists or a hipster too cool to talk to your band, then you're not picturing Andy. His label puts out top-tier releases, but just as importantly, he's a genuine stand-up guy, and it's a pleasure every time I talk to him.

    How you doing, Andy?

    Andy:
    Aw, thanks man. I’m doing good, Scott. I appreciate you doing this and asking me to come on board. The pleasure is all mine. I’m really stoked to be here. Thank you.

    Scott:
    You’ve been doing this label now for 15 years, if I have it correctly?

    Andy:
    Yeah, this is our official 15th year. The label started in 2010. It was supposed to be me and a group of friends trying to do this upstart label in the greater North Bay area of California. The idea was that we were going to document the local scene and release records.

    Scott:
    Very Dischord of you.

    Andy:
    Definitely in the same vein as Dischord or something like that. I won’t dive into the weeds too much early on, but basically it whittled down to just me taking the project and running with it. I’ve been doing it myself with the help of other people who I either hire or who volunteer along the way, but for the most part, it’s a one-person operation.

    Scott:
    As someone who runs a one-person operation, I feel for you.

    In my mind, I am still like the Ant-Man to your Goliath. I know you’re a small independent label, but you’re the thing I look at and go, that’s what I want to have. Not in sales. I have no idea how many you sell or don’t sell. It’s the quality and the reputation. You mention Sell the Heart Records and people are like, yeah, they put out good music. It’s a well-known, well-respected label. That’s what I aspire to emulating.

    Andy:
    That’s really rad to hear. I try not to get too bogged down with figuring out whether or not people like the label, because I don’t think that’s something to put too much weight on at the end of the day. I do this because I love to do it.

    As much as I’m flattered to hear that, and it’s always cool to hear that things you’re doing are well received, first and foremost it’s about doing something that I think is great and that I care about, and working with bands that I think are rad.

    This isn’t something that everyone just does. I think it takes a certain type of person to steer this kind of ship, because it’s a lot of work. It’s not a trivial thing.

    Scott:
    It is. I don’t know how your label started, but my label and most labels I’ve talked to started by putting out our own band’s record because nobody else would. That’s a way to start. But going beyond the first two or three releases, you have to really love what you’re doing. It’s kind of like being in a band. If you’re going to tour all the time, you better love it because touring is a lot of hard work.

    Andy:
    100%. A lot of upstart labels start with that same idea of putting out your own band. That’s basically how Sell the Heart started. I was in this post-rock band called Snipers, which was the side project of another band I was in that was more of my primary focus. That’s a weird and stupid story.

    I figured the first record the label would put out would be our CD, so that’s what we did. Almost immediately after that, I courted and worked with this other local artist. The first vinyl record we did was an artist called Good Riddler, which was a solo project from a guy named Nick. It was a really cool EP.

    We did all the bells and whistles. We did 180 gram vinyl, I think 250 copies, and we had a PR person to help with it. It did okay. I had no real basis of comparison for whether it was good or bad, but we sold copies and managed to pay it back.

    That was the mission statement from day one. We were going to do this in such a way that the mission was to always have everything pay for itself. Everything else was icing on the cake. It’s not to say we don’t strive for bigger and better things for the bands. But from a business side, my main objective is not to turn this into a money-making endeavor or elevate it into my income, because I’m frankly not that delusional. I don’t think there’s a lot of money to be made in music.

    Even back when I started, album sales were much better across the board. Vinyl was still very expensive to produce.

    Scott:
    In 2010, I was probably still buying CDs.

    Andy:
    Most people were still buying CDs.

    Scott:
    I kept buying CDs until my car stopped having a CD player. As soon as I upgraded to a car with no CD player, I was like, I guess I’m listening to my iPod or my iPhone.

    Andy:
    Exactly. You had the iPod, then satellite radio, then streaming services, and that basically killed the CD.

    Scott:
    If my car had not gotten rid of the CD player, I probably would have kept buying CDs even now because I drive a lot.

    Andy:
    Sure, because at that point you already have this vast collection.

    The same applies to vinyl and cassettes too, but someone on Threads mentioned the band Zwan. Do you know who Zwan was?

    Scott:
    No.

    Andy:
    It was a side project Billy Corgan did after Smashing Pumpkins broke up. They only released one full-length record, and you can’t really find it anywhere. It’s not on streaming services. I think somebody bootlegged it and put it on YouTube, and it hasn’t come down yet. You can find bootleg versions on vinyl now, but for a long time it was only available on CD.

    Unless you have the CD or a digital version of it, you really can’t listen to that record anymore. There is something to be said for having the physical artifact, especially for artists and bands that are a little more obscure. You never heard of Zwan, but to me they were a big deal because I’m a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan. It’s a really good record too.

    Scott:
    That speaks to when I started my label. It was the pandemic, and I was doing live streams instead of booking shows. I thought, let’s put it out on vinyl and see what happens. I did two of those.

    Then I remembered The Goons had put out Live at the Black Cat on CD back in 1998. I wondered if they’d be interested in reissuing it on vinyl. It wasn’t on Spotify. It wasn’t on vinyl. I don’t have a CD player anymore. I would love to have that. They said yes.

    Same thing with Two Man Advantage. I had a CDR of their live show at CBGB, and I messaged them. They said they also had some stuff from Punk Rock Bowling from a couple years ago. They asked if I wanted to put one on one side and one on the other. I was like, yeah.

    Some of my first releases were going after bands I enjoyed in the ’90s and 2000s and saying, hey, you did these live albums that only came out on CD or DVD. Wouldn’t it be dope to reissue them on vinyl?

    Andy:
    There is a lot of music out there that isn’t readily available anywhere, and now you have more opportunities than ever to press it to vinyl or even make a CD, and do it relatively inexpensively.

    Social media, as much as we all bark at it for being lame and ridiculous, is a tool to reach people. If you learn how to use it the right way, you can leverage it to reach audiences that are very interested in what you’re trying to put out. Whether it’s a live record from some obscure band that only a thousand people ever heard of, if you can find those thousand people, they might be really into it.

    Scott:
    That’s the thing. Social media is a bear, but I only follow bands, record labels, venues, and maybe some artists I like. When I go on social media, it is not filled with politics or anything like that. It’s literally shows happening in my area. Or it’s a band I like playing in Milwaukee, and then I check out the bands they’re playing with.

    To me, it’s nonstop discovery. It’s almost like looking through the liner notes of a tape or CD where bands thanked other bands and had pictures of flyers from shows they played. That’s how I would learn about bands. That’s what social media is to me personally.

    Andy:
    You do have the capacity to control what you’re seeing. You can block things and restrict things. They are going to try to funnel things in front of you, but that’s advertising and platform mechanics. If you really want to use social media in a way that is curated for your taste, there are ways to do that. A lot of people don’t know that. They don’t understand that those mechanisms are in place.

    Scott:
    There are settings and things you can click.

    Getting back to the label, you were talking about California and the Bay Area. I’m 48, so I consider that area a bastion of punk rock in the ’90s. I define what you do somewhere within that punk rock or punk-adjacent world, though there’s some indie in there too. Sell the Heart sounds like it could be an emocore label name, but I didn’t want to define you.

    Being in an area with so much punk rock, were there already so many other labels? What made you feel like you had a special niche to provide? Was there not enough label support for the bands there?

    Andy:
    If memory serves, part of the inspiration was that there weren’t any record labels I was aware of in my immediate area. There were a few based out of San Francisco or the East Bay, but I was in the North Bay. I thought it would be cool to have a label grounded in the North Bay.

    There had been a few independently run labels in the area, but they had all dissolved by that point. They came, did their thing, and burned out. I thought it would be cool to do something like that.

    I had no real ambitions for how long it would go or even what types of bands I wanted to work with. The main focus was documenting the local scene, which at that time was pretty awesome. That area is super rich with talent. A ton of bands came out of there, like The Velvet Teen, Ceremony, Diesel Boy, Bracket, and Tsunami Bomb. And that’s just the punk-adjacent bands. There’s also jazz, hip hop, blues, folk, and alt-country.

    Scott:
    Did you touch on any of that at all?

    Andy:
    The band I was in, Snipers, was this post-rock band. Instrumental, grandiose, very loud-quiet-loud kind of stuff. Good Riddler was more along the lines of indie rock, but with a very niche sound.

    After that, I worked with Over the Falls, who were kind of like Clutch. Riff-heavy rock. Then there was a band called Mare, who were more of a grandiose indie rock band. After that, Teenage Sweater, a two-piece electro indie dance thing.

    At that point, we really hadn’t even touched punk or hardcore, and certainly not ska. It was a pretty diverse start as far as the first few records we did.

    One of the first punk rock things we did was a compilation. Not all of the bands were from Sonoma County, but the vast majority were. They had all recorded at the same local recording studio. The compilation was centered around that studio, which had worked with all these bands. It had a lot of really cool punk bands on it.

    Fast forward to now, I’ve worked with bands that you could definitely consider punk rock or punk-adjacent. A lot of bands fit into more of the post-hardcore kind of sound, or the Fest kind of sound. I’ve worked with ska bands, post-rock bands, and darkwave/goth bands.

    The way I describe it to people is that we’re more like Sub Pop and less like Fat Wreck Chords.

    Scott:
    That makes sense to me. I grew up in the ’90s in the DC area. Dischord has kind of a sound, but not really. Once you get past the hardcore sound, people call things post-hardcore or post-punk, but that is as impossible to define as indie rock. If you tell me your band is post-punk, that tells me absolutely nothing about what you sound like.

    Epitaph had Punk-O-Rama, Fat Wreck had Fat Music, Lookout had a definitive sound, No Idea tended to have a sound, Jade Tree had a sound, Victory had a sound. But I can see Sell the Heart being closer to Kill Rock Stars or Sub Pop.

    Has that diversity been helpful, or does it not matter? Are you just putting out whatever you want and saying fuck it?

    Andy:
    It’s a double-edged sword. On one hand, I want to come from this place of not caring what other people think about the way I curate the label because I like the music I’m putting out. That’s all that matters, and I’ll make it work regardless.

    On the other side of that sword, it does make it harder to funnel things to people because now you’re trying to find the audience for each band instead of having an audience for all of it.

    That’s not to say I don’t have people who are totally stoked on everything I put out. I have several people who purchase every record I put out and have nothing but positive things to say. But the vast majority of orders I get are people buying one record at a time. I would even venture to say that most people who come back to buy another record are buying something aligned with what they bought before.

    Then there’s another smaller percentage that are more eclectic. Sometimes I’m surprised at what people pair together. They’ll buy a Snipers record and then also pair it with Nextdoor, which are two vastly different types of music. But there are people out there with eclectic taste, and that’s kind of who I’m shooting for.

    Scott:
    My taste is probably a little more narrow, but I have people who buy a swamp doom metal band and then buy a soulful R&B ska record. I like that.

    You mentioned curating. I never really thought about it that way, but that’s kind of what labels are. We’re curating. We’re doing it, just you and me. As you said that, I was like, have I ever had good taste? If I like it, should everyone else like it too? I don’t know. Someone else used that word with me about my monthly shows in Kingston. They said I was doing a good job curating it. I thought I was just booking good bands, but yeah.

    Andy:
    There are certain words people use that are nice to hear, but they don’t necessarily matter. Is it curating, or are you just booking? But even if you don’t think you’re curating something, you are, because the catalog exists.

    Twenty years from now, I’m going to look back and say, okay, these are the records I put out. I’ll revisit them and listen to them and say, these were all really good records. They were good bands working their butts off and writing good stuff.

    I know not everyone is going to love it, but I hope there are enough people who do love it and are willing to throw down 20 or 25 bucks to buy the record and support the band. The fact that I’m able to do it at all is super cool and super fun.

    I don’t think labels are necessarily vital anymore, but I think they still play an interesting role in the independent music scene because they foster community and offer that guided playlist type of curation.

    My job is to get people to pay attention to these bands. That’s what my main job is. I’m trying to say, here’s this really cool band. I like them so much that I’m willing to put several thousand dollars behind them to press this record and tell you it’s really good. Here you go. You should buy it.

    Scott:
    How do you manage making sure bands do their promotion too? I’m sure you’ve had a mixed bag of results, like anyone else. Some bands are really good at it. Some try their best. Some are crickets in the wind.

    Andy:
    That has constantly been a struggle. The hardest part is communicating what you need from bands in a way that doesn’t seem like you’re trying to boss them around. Nobody wants to feel that way, and I don’t have that right. That’s not how this transaction works.

    I don’t own anything. The only thing I own are the actual records because I paid for them. I usually give the band some records up front and all that stuff. I don’t work with contracts. I don’t have bands sign contracts because I don’t think they’re necessary. We’re not dealing with huge numbers here.

    I think I do a pretty good job of vetting people and understanding that this person isn’t going to drop the ball or ignore me. But it has happened, and it sucks. It’s not a good feeling. Any bands listening to this, don’t do that. It’s not cool.

    We are bound to a tried-and-true methodology: band records record, label helps release record, band and label talk to the air through social media, ads in Razorcake, podcasts, or whatever mechanisms we have. The end goal is to sell records, get people to listen to the band, and eventually go see them play live.

    The only way that works is if the label and the band are both doing those things on a somewhat consistent basis and doing it in a way that’s meaningful. If it’s lopsided and only one party is doing the work, then it’s not working.

    The easiest thing to do is nudge them politely. “Hey guys, don’t forget to talk about this. Post about it. I don’t care if you post about it every day, but you have to post about it a few times. Here are some suggestions.”

    Some bands are great about that. Some bands are not. You have to ride that line of not annoying people by posting three times a day saying buy my record. But you can’t do nothing because people’s attention spans are gone. If you don’t post, you don’t exist.

    Scott:
    You can tell. You might have 5,000 or 10,000 followers, but you do a post and only 120 people interact with it. Maybe 500 people saw it. There are still another 9,500 you need to reach, but you can’t post it again immediately. You have to space it out.

    That’s why it helps if the band does it too. They’re doing it, and you’re doing it. It’s not all you poking the bear the whole time going, pay attention, pay attention.

    Andy:
    It’s a numbers game. I’ve got 5,000 followers. The band has 5,000 followers. If it’s a split, the other band has 5,000 followers. You’re trying to get a percentage of them to do the thing you’re asking them to do.

    We all know how social media works. It’s about engagement, how long they watch your video, and all those things coming together for more visibility. You can also pay for ads or run ads in print zines, websites, Google, or whatever platform. All of that stuff can help, but it’s really expensive, and in my experience, not really worth it.

    The number one thing I think does work, and I wish more bands did this, is playing shows. You have to play live. That’s where you connect with people. People are leveraging social media and turning it into their whole personality, and that can work for some people, but to me, it can feel inauthentic. It takes away from what music is really about.

    Going to see a band live, seeing what they’re all about, vibing off it, and thinking, this is really cool, is how you get people to really start paying attention.

    Scott:
    No disagreement from me. I don’t even always want to put out a band if I haven’t seen them live. Live is what matters to me. A studio record can sound great because studio magic can make you great, but the live band is what makes me a passionate fan.

    One venue asked me, so you’re going to do flyers, pick the bands, pay the door person, pay a sound guy, feed the bands, bring bands from out of town, and pay them. How are you going to make any money? I said, I’m not. But I’m supporting my scene. I’m meeting and seeing bands I might want to work with later. I usually book a band on my own label too. I bring my own records, and I’m a pretty verbose person, so I can usually sell a handful of records at a show.

    That’s the goal. I would rather lose $100 or $150 at a show where I’m having the time of my life than lose $150 on an ad in a zine or social media ad. That’s a better use of $150 gone.

    Andy:
    The live show thing is not easy either. You have to balance the risk of overplaying a certain area, which will kill your vibe. It happens to every band at some point.

    That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do the social media thing or the newsletter. I’m going to say this frankly: a lot of bands are just lazy. They’re not great at doing the things they need to do to maximize the potential of what a band can do.

    Not every band wants to maximize that potential, and that’s fine. But bringing it back to running a label, the sole purpose of the record label is to sell records. That’s what I do. I try to sell records.

    If I’m working with a band that doesn’t have the presence of mind or willingness to do the things they need to do to help make that happen, there is no reason to work with that band. Unfortunately, by that point you’ve already done it, so you’re SOL. That’s when you have to be more inventive and figure out other ways to get those records into people’s hands.

    I’ve had a couple of experiences with bands where I’m just like, dude, you pretty much screwed me, and that sucks. You left me hanging for thousands of dollars and you’re not willing to take responsibility. That’s a real bummer because I was under the impression we were going to work on this together.

    Thankfully, that is the exception to the rule. It’s only happened a couple times. Almost every other experience has been positive. Most bands are receptive to what I have to say and understand where I’m coming from.

    I always emphasize that I’m not trying to make money off of you. First of all, there is no money to be made. Secondly, even if I do make money, you’re getting some of that money. That’s how this works.

    Most bands I work with are totally chill and good about this stuff. But those handful of times where it has been a bummer, it is really a bummer.

    If you’re listening to this and you’re in a band, unless you’re willing to put in the work and do the things you need to do to move units, don’t hit up labels. Don’t do it.

    Scott:
    Don’t agree to do it. Don’t talk about doing it. If you break up, that happens. I’ve had people who didn’t know they were going to break up, and it does happen. But I’ve still had those bands be helpful.

    It’s the situation where I did a split with two bands, and one band is all in and the other band is like, I don’t even want my copies. I don’t even understand that.

    Andy:
    To me, it’s unfathomable. Why did we even do this? You clearly don’t care.

    I’m a musician too. I’ve been in bands, and I care deeply about getting it in front of people. I want people to hear my music. It’s not an ego thing. I’m not doing it because I want to be a big shot. I’m doing it because I want people to hear it.

    Scott:
    That’s why you put out music, so people can hear it.

    Have you run into this? Maybe it’s just because I do live albums. A band says, well, that was a year ago, and we play a lot better now. We’re a different band now, so that record no longer captures who we are, and we don’t really want to support it anymore.

    I’m like, that would be the same with a studio record though. You go into the studio, record, and then you change. I’ve been in bands where by the fifth album, we didn’t sound the same as we did on the first. But if I still had copies of the first album, I would still sell it.

    Andy:
    That sounds really silly to me, straight up. As a musician, I’ve gone through those thoughts and feelings of thinking I’m a better musician now. But maybe I have a different perspective. I’m proud of all the output I’ve put out.

    There’s obviously stuff I’m not as stoked on. Maybe it was a rough recording, or we could have mixed it better, or my performance wasn’t that great. But I don’t look back at any of it and cringe. It’s all a learning experience. It’s part of evolving and becoming a better musician.

    Scott:
    It’s a snapshot of where you were at that moment. Where you were was where you were, and people liked it, and you liked it. Don’t shy away from that.

    Andy:
    Exactly. And you’re making commitments with people. When a band works with a label of our type, we’re not Warner Brothers. There’s no 360 deal. No one is screwing you out of anything. This is basically supposed to be for fun.

    Scott:
    It is. I’m still in the losing-money phase. I break even on some releases, some I do really well on, and others I lose on. My wife and I looked at my numbers this year, and she said, if you were an avid golfer or skier, you probably would have spent as much money doing that over the course of 12 months. So while you technically lost money, what else do you do with your time? This is what you do.

    Andy:
    That’s how I view it too. I’m willing to invest a certain amount of money and lose a certain amount of money because I know this isn’t meant to be my job. I have a job. So what am I willing to risk to have this fun?

    In the last 15 years, there have definitely been years where I’ve lost money, and years where I’ve made money. I feel like it has mostly evened out. You have to find other ways to help augment that. I have my record club, which is a good way to generate a quick influx of cash. I have my Bandcamp subscription and Patreon. I do flea markets and vend. Sometimes I sell a lot of records. Sometimes people are stoked on stuff they’ve never heard. Sometimes it’s a loser and you don’t sell anything. But it all comes into this giant pool I work out of.

    Scott:
    You diversify quite a bit. I’ve seen the package deals where you buy one record and get a bunch of extras. Record club, Patreon, all that. I’ve pondered those, but I haven’t wrapped my head around the logistics of what to offer. I might think I have the inventory for a record club, but then I have a couple good months and realize I don’t really have the inventory right now. I don’t consistently have that much variety.

    Andy:
    The record club is interesting because you’re committing to something. Things happen. Bands break up. Thankfully that hasn’t happened to me during the record clubs, but the biggest wrench in the gears has been delays.

    That was more a few years ago when we had big delays at pressing plants. I’m grateful that most people who have pre-ordered from me haven’t had to deal with significant delays. When they did, only one or two people were really mad. Usually, once I explained it was completely out of my control and offered to refund them if they wanted, they understood. We don’t need to have a screaming match over this. It’s a record.

    Scott:
    My third release was Two Man Advantage during the pandemic. I think we got Taylor Swifted or something, and it took forever. I had done the pre-sale, and afterward I said, that’s it. I’m never doing a pre-sale until the record has at least been shipped to me. I prefer to wait until it’s in my hands. I like getting my money back as fast as I can, but we’re talking a six- or seven-month delay. It was way past the date I thought I’d have it.

    Andy:
    The pre-order thing can be tricky if you’re not careful. Now I try not to do pre-orders more than six weeks out if I can help it. I’d rather know the test presses have passed, the artwork is completely dialed in, and we have a locked-in date for when they’re supposed to be here.

    Especially now that I’m working with a distributor, I have to make sure everything is locked in and done by a certain time.

    Scott:
    How many records do you normally press? I do short runs, but I’m looking at expanding because I’m also talking to a distributor. If I expand to a distributor, I feel like I’m going to have to press more than 200.

    Andy:
    My default right now is 100, with the caveat that it depends on the full scope of the release.

    I’m a big fan of partnering with other labels on releases. I think that’s a great way to help the bands and build community because there are all these great labels around the world trying to do something similar. We all use the same models. It’s not like I’ve got an edge because I do this one thing differently. We all do the same thing. The major difference is that some labels are more curated toward a certain sound or audience.

    The most recent release was the Oh The Humanity record.

    Scott:
    You mean this record right here? I love it. I love the band. I love this record.

    Andy:
    I appreciate you purchasing a copy. We partnered with Engineer Records, who have been a longtime partner of ours in the UK, and Thousand Islands Records, a really awesome punk rock label out of Canada. It was a match made in heaven. All three labels worked in sync together. We all promoted it well.

    Thankfully, it was really well received. The singles did well. We had a good PR person help push it to zines, magazines, online, podcasts, and all that. We got some great album reviews, and the album sold really well.

    I’m now out of the copies I have available. The only copies I have left are set aside for my record club. So right now, you’d have to sign up for my record club to get a copy from me. You can still get them from Thousand Islands, the band, or Engineer.

    Scott:
    Didn’t you send some to your distributor too?

    Andy:
    Yeah, I did. We pressed 300 total.

    Scott:
    Spread over three labels and the band.

    Andy:
    Exactly. For a band of their size, I think 300 is the sweet spot. You’re not pressing so many that you risk having all these leftovers, but you’re not pressing so few that you can’t distribute it far and wide at a decent price. The price point is still viable.

    Scott:
    Do you do represses? Usually if you repress, the fee is around $140 or $150 because the pressing plant has already made the plates. Some plants hold onto them for three years. So you could press 300 and say, dude, we sold out. Let’s press another, rather than pressing 600 initially.

    Andy:
    It depends on the pressing plant. Some hold onto them for a couple years, and some get rid of them pretty quickly. The standard is probably at least a year.

    I have done represses. My rule of thumb is that if the album sells out within the first year, I like to keep the option open to repress it. But it really comes down to what happened during that timeframe.

    If your band sold a bunch of records but didn’t do much to help keep things going, that’s not a good sign. I don’t necessarily think it’s a great idea to put more money into the same record. Even though it sold through, if you didn’t do much on your end, that’s a lack of awareness or interest in doing your part. It’s great that it sold, but that would be a red flag.

    But if you kicked ass, did a bunch of shows, promoted well, communicated well, and showed signs that you’re going to continue on that path, I’ve definitely done represses. I did that with Nextdoor, Datura, and Middle-Aged Queers.

    It comes down to whether the band is worth investing in again for that same record. More often than not, the band is already moving on to the next record. That doesn’t mean we can’t still repress the old stuff. We repressed that Rancid tribute record three times because it kept selling. We made the third one the last one.

    Scott:
    That’s the tricky thing. I had a really good spring where the Rebelmatic record, the Middle-Aged Queers and Raging Nathans record, and the Inquisition record all sold out. But none of them wanted to repress. They wanted to keep it unique and special and be done with it.

    Andy:
    I think we are past the point of vinyl being as interesting to normies. With the economy and people losing jobs, people don’t have as much income to spend on this kind of stuff. Vinyl has only gotten more expensive. Everything has gotten more expensive.

    I think it can be to your benefit to keep things scaled down and special. If you press 200 of a record one time and that’s it, then that’s all that will ever be there. If you completely blow through 200 copies during the pre-order, sure, repress it. There’s clearly demand for the record.

    Scott:
    I had set out with the idea to never repress, but the one time I wish I had was with Some Kind of Nightmare. I did their 7-inch, and it sold out in six weeks. All 200 copies. I should have repressed that.

    Andy:
    In your case, on the front end, when you’re talking to the band, I would just say, if this sells really well, I’d like to have the option to repress it. Get that agreement ahead of time.

    I like to handle these transactions more like a partnership with the bands and less like a separate entity from the bands. I always want the bands to buy in on something like that. Even if something sold super fast, I wouldn’t assume they’d be okay with a repress. Some bands might say, no, let’s keep it to one pressing. I want it to be special and only done once. I think there is value to that too.

    Scott:
    Since mine are live albums, nine times out of ten, the songs have already been recorded and are on Spotify. A lot of my releases will do a single or two, but they don’t want the full album up. They’ll say, why would we put the live album on Spotify? You can listen to the studio songs. If people want the live album, they’ve got to buy it.

    I usually say the digital side is whatever they want to do. I have no say and no concern. It’s not my problem. I could probably try to be part of that, but because I work on such a small scale with small bands, and like you said, I like to document the moment.

    I’m a history teacher from DC. I will put out a record by a band that never leaves their town if I like their music. I’m doing this high school band from DC called 504 Plan. They’re midway through their junior year, and the record comes out in May. They’ve been clear that by the following May they’ll be breaking up because they’re going away to college. There’s only one year to sell the record. I’m okay with that. They’re a great band, and I think it matters.

    Andy:
    There are no rules to this. If you want to put the record out, put the record out. You shouldn’t be held to some standard, especially for us. We’re not all about the numbers, even though the numbers matter in the grand scheme of things. You can’t put out everything and feel good if they’re all losers. I wouldn’t feel good about that.

    Scott:
    If I put out 10 releases and only sold three copies of each one, I’d say this is stupid and be done with it.

    Andy:
    Something has to give at some point. But that’s all part of the learning process. I believe there is always an audience for this music. There is. It exists. You just have to find them.

    Scott:
    That’s what I said when I was in a band. There are seven billion people in the world, and we pressed 200 records. All I have to do is find 200 out of seven billion who like us.

    Andy:
    It sounds easy, but it’s hard.

    Scott:
    I know, but number-wise it shouldn’t be that hard. Even in the United States, there are 300 million people. I should be able to find 200 willing to spend $20.

    How do you handle older legacy albums? I have nothing left from 2021 or 2022, but I still have records from 2023. They’re coming up on two years old. I’m not really promoting them, and the bands are not promoting them. They’re just sitting there looking really cool.

    Andy:
    A lot of my older stock, I try to do clearance bundles. Or I’ll do a buy-one-get-a-random-one-free campaign for a month. If you buy a full-price record, you get something from my old stock.

    Some of those records have already been paid off. The money I invested has already been paid back, so I can technically get rid of them and it doesn’t matter. Some have not yet recouped, to varying degrees.

    Let’s say Oh The Humanity costs $25. I might account about $7 of that toward the random record. It makes up for lost revenue on records that have been sitting on my shelves for a few years. It takes away the recoupment from Oh The Humanity, but thankfully that record sold well and has recouped. It’s all one big pool of money anyway, so it doesn’t really matter where the money comes in as long as it comes in from somewhere.

    Ideally, I’d be able to move more of the five random records for 35 or 40 bucks bundles. I have that special going on right now.

    Scott:
    Is that successful? Are people willing to buy five records for $35?

    Andy:
    It hasn’t been moving as well as I hoped, and that’s okay. People don’t necessarily want to risk their money on stuff they may not like, and I appreciate that. I’ve bought those kinds of bundles from Wiretap Records before. I love Wiretap and Rob. There are some of his bands I like and some that aren’t really for me. But I took a chance and supported the label. I don’t regret it. That’s the reality.

    I hope there are people willing to roll the dice and spend a little money. Basically, 35 bucks is what you’d pay for a new record in a record store, and you’re getting five records you might like.

    Scott:
    Even if you only like some of them, you can trade the others with a friend or give them to someone who might like them better.

    Andy:
    That’s the mentality I’d love to see more people take. Buy five records and hope you like at least one or two. The others might be perfect for a friend. That’s still money well spent.

    I don’t fault people for not doing it. Money is tight. Maybe you’re not into the music. I get that too.

    Scott:
    I started the label during the pandemic. Anecdotally speaking, everyone was stuck home. I was going Discogs crazy and buying every 7-inch from every band I used to love and used to see growing up that I only had on CD and that wasn’t on Spotify.

    When I started the label, I was selling records hand over fist. People had nowhere to go. They weren’t spending their money. They were sitting at home listening to music and needed something to occupy their time. Now they’re back in their cars, at restaurants, bars, shows, movies, and everything else. Inflation happened too. It’s become an uphill battle to maintain this physical art form.

    Andy:
    On top of that, concert ticket prices have gotten so much higher that people don’t have money left over to buy merch. The live music experience is usually more enticing to people. They’ll spend the extra money to see the band live, but then they don’t have money left over to buy the album.

    Scott:
    I do the same. I don’t buy the record of every band I listen to. I only have so much money and room.

    Andy:
    I actually just did a big purge of my records. I pulled out around 80 records and said, this is a cool record, but I’m probably not going to listen to it again. I’d rather have extra money or a chance to buy another record I might be more into.

    I don’t feel bad about buying the record. I supported the artist or the record store or whatever. It’s a good exercise to go through with anything, including clothes.

    Scott:
    You’re probably right. I have far more records than I could ever listen to, especially 7-inches. I have 200 or 300 7-inches. There’s no way I’m going to listen to all those on a regular basis.

    Andy:
    I have a dream goal of getting an actual jukebox that plays 7-inches. I think I have about 100 7-inches. It would be really cool to have a jukebox and put them all in there. It’s such an archaic way of thinking about it.

    Scott:
    It makes sense because then you can put them in and hit shuffle. 7-inches are great, but you have to get up and flip them pretty quickly. You’ve got six minutes tops on each side before you have to flip it.

    I have a whole area in my basement with my record shelf and record player connected to my stereo and speakers. I have a section for 12-inches I still have to listen to and a section for 7-inches I still have to listen to. They can’t go into alphabetical order until I listen to them at least once. If I listen and don’t care for them, they go to my distro box. Then I sell them at shows for a reduced price. Played once.

    Andy:
    Sometimes you can’t like everything. It’s all cyclical.

    Scott:
    How much communication do you have with the band after a release? I always debate whether I should touch base regularly. Should I check back every three months and ask how it’s going? I don’t want to be a bother. There are some bands I become really good friends with, and others where it’s just fine.

    Andy:
    I communicate on a somewhat regular basis with most of them. Some of them I’ve become genuinely good friends with. We see each other every once in a while and hang out. If they play here, I try to come to their shows.

    Communication usually stays more consistent during the lead-up to the release and a few months after. There is a life cycle to it. Usually it’s the six or seven months leading up to the release, from them sending the demo or whatever, then putting the release plan together, getting the pressing together, and the actual release cycle with singles and videos. Then maybe three months after. So it’s usually about a year with any given release.

    Using Oh The Humanity as an example, we have a multi-channel thread with the band, Thousand Islands Records, David from Engineer, myself, and a few members of the band. We have a thread on Facebook and an email thread. We check in every once in a while: how’s this going, did you see this review, how are sales, when are you playing again?

    With other bands, it’s not as much because there doesn’t need to be as much.

    Scott:
    I did Rob Huddleston’s acoustic album, then right after that I did Inquisition, and then I did their final live album. For over two years, I was talking to Rob regularly. When the final album came out, I was like, this is it. I’m not going to talk to you now. He said, we’ll still talk. I said, no we won’t. It’ll be six months until we talk again. I’ve talked to you weekly for two years, and now it’s gone. Sad.

    Andy:
    There are bands where it goes steadily for a few months, and then after the release cycle is done it fades off. More often than not, it’s because there’s not much to be said. The album is out. You’re not necessarily friends with these people, especially if they live thousands of miles away. But you’re on friendly terms, unless they screw you over.

    There are bands I’ve had to reach out to well after the fact to ask for information, and usually it’s no big deal. You catch up, and it’s all good.

    Scott:
    Before I let you go, I want to talk about some of the albums of yours that I have. Fat Heaven. I love this fucking record. I saw a show with Scarboro, and the guitarist is apparently in Fat Heaven. He said we had met before. I said we have? He said, yeah, I saw you walk in and said I’ve seen that dude in four different states in the last two years. I’ve seen you in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Florida, and now New York. I guess I get around.

    Tell me about this record. It’s fucking sick.

    Andy:
    That record is actually the culmination of a few of their previously released albums and a couple brand new songs, which I thought was a cool way to do it. They had previously released a couple EPs online, and I think one of them was on a 7-inch before.

    I love Fat Heaven. They’re so fun. They’re the coolest trio from New York. Really nice folks. They write really good, catchy pop punk. It hooks you right in. I had played a few shows with them back in the day. We got connected that way. I loved them and said, hey, if you’re ever interested in putting something out, let’s talk. That’s how that came about.

    Scott:
    I met them at Camp Punksylvania 3 in the parking lot. I knew someone who knew them, and we just chatted. I had no idea who they were. Then I saw them play and was like, I’m fucking buying this record. That’s great. I see a lot of bands. For me to see you play live and say I’m buying your fucking record, that’s my endorsement.

    That’s why I bought the Oh The Humanity record too. Same Camp Punksylvania, I saw them twice that weekend. I was like, I’m buying it. They’re great live, so it’s going to be a great fucking record. I had no doubt.

    Andy:
    Sometimes you just see a band and think, that’s the one. I’m paying attention to this one.

    Scott:
    I’ve got these two Middle-Aged Queers records too. How did you get involved with these fabulous queers?

    Andy:
    Shauners, the singer, I’ve known for close to 30 years. We didn’t become good friends until maybe seven or eight years ago, but we had played in bands at the same time way back in the day and crossed paths. We knew each other in passing. We had seen each other’s bands and had a lot of mutual acquaintances.

    I had taken a bit of a hiatus from the label. The label still existed, but I wasn’t doing anything brand new with it for a few years because I got some education on how to be a programmer and put the label on the back shelf.

    When I wanted to start it up again, I put out an APB saying Sell the Heart Records was starting up again and I was looking for bands to release records. Shauners was one of the people who hit me up. We met for coffee.

    The funny thing about that first Middle-Aged Queers record we did was that they were already in the process of getting the record pressed. I said, okay, what do you need me for then? He said he thought it would be cool to partner up and work together.

    So we did it in reverse. I committed to buying a certain number of copies from them since they were already doing it. They put my label logo on it, and I helped them put it out. I gave him money, he slapped the label logo on there, and I helped promote it. That record sold really well.

    We helped them put out their second one. They’ve also been on a few compilations for us. And not to spill the beans too much, but there will be a new record from them this year.

    Scott:
    One of the bands I had not seen live. I saw the live video before I bought the record, but I had not seen them live.

    The last record of yours I have is Crossed Keys. I got this at Fest. I was so stoked because Dave is one of my favorite drummers of all time. I saw them at Fest and was just staring at him. Then I realized one of the dudes was in Kill The Man Who Questions, who I used to go ape shit over. In the early 2000s, they would come and play the Wilson Center in DC with Zegota and Q And Not U, and I was so in love with that band.

    Andy:
    I got connected to Crossed Keys in a funny way. It was multi-faceted. I think three people hit me up around the same time saying, have you heard this band Crossed Keys? They’re putting out a new record and wanted to see if you would be interested in helping.

    From what I understand, the record label they were going to put it out with basically went under, so they wanted to find other labels to work with. They ended up working with Creep Records, Eric from Creep. They were looking for additional partners. I listened to it and thought, this is great. Let’s do it. It’s right up my alley. It’s a great record.

    Scott:
    I have them coming up to play New Paltz in March, and I’m recording the show. I’m not sure who runs their Instagram because there’s never anyone’s name in it. They said the recording is free, so go ahead and do it, but they tend to put all of their energy into playing, so they’re not sure how it will come across live.

    I was like, that’s exactly what a live record should be. I want to avoid as many overdubs and fixes as possible. You didn’t sing into the mic for half a verse? That’s fine. That’s exactly what it sounded like live.

    Andy:
    I think a good live record does have warts in it. It shouldn’t be a perfect, sterile picture. I don’t necessarily think a live record has to be polished and perfect. It should sound good, but those little warts add character and show you who the band is. They’re just people.

    Scott:
    My old band did a reunion after like 15 years, and we recorded it. I dropped my drumstick during a song and said leave it in. It’s a minor goof, but that’s what happened. I have no problem with that.

    Andy:
    Everyone has their own perspective. Some bands would never release something that wasn’t the perfect example of what they are. That’s okay. I’m not on that team.

    Scott:
    I’m excited to see Crossed Keys again. They killed it at Fest. I’m excited to bring them to the Hudson Valley, and I’m hoping the recording comes out in a way they love. If not, that’s okay. They’re very nice people. They’re all in. I first offered them a matinee show, and they couldn’t make it work, but they were like, we’ll play matinees all day long. I love that.

    They’re down to earth. Some of these people I’ve looked up to for a long time, and they’re so kind. I know I’m not a kid anymore, but I feel like a kid when I talk to people like that.

    Andy:
    That’s one of the cool things about Fest. There is very little barrier between the audience and the bands. You walk around and see somebody and can say, I really like your band.

    Scott:
    Exactly. I don’t want to take up too much more of your time. You’ve been incredibly gracious. I loved hearing about what you do, what you’ve done, and what’s coming in the future.

    Usually I close out with a song from my guest. What song do you want to send me? It can be any song at all.

    Andy:
    You mean from Tsunami Bomb?

    Scott:
    It could be from Tsunami Bomb. It could be a jingle from a commercial from 1929 for all I care.

    Andy:
    It’ll be the Folgers Coffee jingle.

    No, I’ll probably do “Naysayers” from Tsunami Bomb’s last record. I think that’d be a good one.

    As far as what’s coming up with the label, we have two new records to announce very soon. We’ve already gotten the test pressings approved, and we’re hopefully picking up the records within a week. We’ll announce those for pre-order pretty soon. They are two bands we’ve worked with in the past, so if you’ve been paying attention, you’ll already be familiar with them.

    Then we have at least six other releases planned for the year, a likely seventh, and a potential eighth if everything comes together. Beyond that, I’m trying to keep things scaled back this year. The last few years I’ve done way more than I should have done. I’m trying to put more emphasis on a less-is-more approach and fostering each release more versus having a higher volume of output.

    You’ll probably see fewer releases this year from us, but they’re all going to be great. They’re all great bands and good stuff.

    We also offer really great specials all the time. If there is an album you’re interested in and you want a little more bang for your buck, I often do buy-one-get-one deals, curated bundles, and things like that.

    I also offer my record club, which is a great value. I have my Patreon and Bandcamp subscription too, which are also great values. You get a lot of really good music out of those, and all of those come with physical items as well. If you sign up for our Patreon, you’re going to get physical music too.

    I’m a big advocate for those kinds of things because they offer options for people.

    Scott:
    Very cool. Thank you again, Andy. Thank you everyone for listening. This has been DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support with Andy Pohl from Sell the Heart Records. Have a great day, everyone. Thank you all so much.

    Andy:
    Take care.

  • Episode 11: Loren Green of Scene Point Blank

    Scott:
    Alright everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a small DIY label that puts out hardcore, punk, ska, and metal albums on vinyl. Live albums only. I have 30 years of experience playing drums in hardcore bands in DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows. I've met a lot of talented and amazing people in this scene.

    Today's guest is Loren Green, editor-in-chief of Scene Point Blank, an influential online punk zine that has been at the forefront of digital punk journalism since its launch in 2003. What began as a passion project during the early days of music blogging has grown into one of the most respected voices in punk and hardcore coverage, known for its thoughtful long-form features and uncompromising reviews.

    I can't wait to hear what Loren has to say about running an online digital punk zine. How you doing, Loren?

    Loren:
    Good.

    Scott:
    Excellent. Was that accurate? 2002 is when the webzine started, correct?

    Loren:
    Close enough. 2003, actually. Our math was off too. We did our 20th anniversary piece last year on our 21st, because that’s kind of how running a site like this goes.

    Scott:
    Have you been with it from the very beginning?

    Loren:
    I have not. I joined, I want to say, around 2010.

    Scott:
    Can you give me a little background on how the website started, if you don’t mind, and then how you became part of it? You can make this as short or as long as you want. It can be an entire buffet of information, or it can be a bunch of amuse-bouches if you prefer.

    Loren:
    I probably won’t do justice to the early days because I wasn’t there, but I’ve heard the origin story many times. We actually have some versions of it online if you dig deep on our site, which I don’t expect people to do when they’re there for music coverage.

    The short story is that probably around 2002, a bunch of people who knew each other on the AFI message board connected through that and spawned the idea of doing a site themselves. There were four people who kind of had the title of co-founder at the time. They came together and took on different roles. One of them is still at the site.

    Scott:
    Life happened with the rest.

    Loren:
    Exactly. Life happened with all of us. Matt, who is still with the site, is the web designer. He’s the one who built the site in 2003, and he has rebuilt it several times since.

    Like he wrote in our 20th anniversary piece, he went from being a teenager living in his parents’ house to being a parent now while running the site. He also went into a career working with web design, so it all kind of connects.

    Scott:
    How did you get involved? What’s your connection with punk rock in general? Start there if you want, and then explain how that connection brought you to Scene Point Blank.

    Loren:
    I don’t know if I firmly have one starting point, but it was during the big wave of the ’90s. I was living in rural Minnesota and started hearing bands that really intrigued me. I listened to mainstream alt-rock, metal, and things like that leading up to it.

    I knew I was looking for something else. I didn’t know what. Then one day I heard those three chords, or whatever you want to say, and it clicked. That started a trajectory that began with bands like Rancid and Green Day and the buzz bands, or whatever you want to call them, because I was in my early teens at the time.

    Scott:
    I remember getting Rancid’s Let’s Go on tape. My dad signed me up for a defensive driving class, and the guy said I could play whatever music I wanted. I only had one tape with me, and it was that. It was a four-hour class in the car, and that tape was probably 45 minutes long tops. We listened to it over and over again. I’m sure the guy was like, what the hell am I listening to? But Rancid’s Let’s Go was foundational for me.

    Loren:
    It was one of them for me too. I remember going to the local independent store in my town. I think first I went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and went to like three independent stores, and they didn’t have it either. Then I went and special ordered it at the local one.

    Scott:
    I grew up in DC, so stuff was there, but I didn’t know what to look for. I always selected things based on who other bands thanked in their liner notes. Bad Religion thanked this band called Rancid, so I needed to pick up a Rancid record.

    Loren:
    That was similar for me. That’s totally how I found those shows before the internet. You’d see flyers at those record stores. I think Let’s Go literally had pictures of their flyers in the booklet, so I recognized that. I went to a billion bands I’d never heard a song of and liked 70% of them.

    Scott:
    Did you do any zine work back then? Were you playing in bands, or were you just the awesome-ass supporter going to shows?

    Loren:
    Mostly going to shows back then. I wrote short stories in high school for fun and became an English major later. The journey to Scene Point Blank was similar to the journey to punk rock. Something was missing. I wasn’t writing after college, and I needed a kickstart. I started playing with review writing.

    Scott:
    How did you make the connection with Scene Point Blank? There are a fair number of webzines out there, some better than others. You’re on that top tier that I think is extremely well done. How did you get involved?

    Loren:
    Thank you. It’s been so long that all I remember is I found them probably just by searching online. I don’t know exactly how the content stood out. I think I scoured their interviews more than their reviews, even though I tend to do more review writing.

    I could be wrong, but I think it was a Paint It Black interview. I liked the mix of thoughtfulness with actual connection. They treated people like humans. No rock stars. That kind of thing.

    Scott:
    Did you reach out and say, hey, I want to write for you? How did you get the gig? You obviously didn’t start as editor-in-chief.

    Loren:
    That’s exactly it. I sent an email saying I’m a writer, I like what you do, and I like a lot of the same music. They had a form on the site, which is honestly still on the site with some updates, where you send a writing sample, tell us what you like, and they decide if you’re a fit.

    Back then, there was a little team of people in charge who vetted me.

    Scott:
    How many reviews would you do in a month? I ask because I did reviews on the blog on my label’s website. I found that even if I really liked the band, I sometimes ran out of vocabulary to describe what I was listening to in a way that sounded fresh. I tended to only review bands I liked because I didn’t want to be insincere or waste my time trashing someone, but I would get burnt out and have to stop.

    How many reviews could you do in a month and still feel like you could creatively and accurately describe what you were listening to?

    Loren:
    Creativity depends so much on the mood. Scene Point Blank goes really in-depth. We go for more of the long form. I think the goal is often two to three a month. Sometimes it’s one or more a week. Sometimes it’s less.

    When I’ve been working on all the year-end list stuff the last two months, I really haven’t written many. Burnout gets involved too. Creativity is tough, especially with punk rock. Most people aren’t reinventing the wheel. There is a vocabulary already out there.

    Scott:
    That’s what I was getting to. I was sometimes doing five to ten a week, and I didn’t know how many more times I could say chugga-chugga guitars and gasoline mixed with gravel vocals. I was trying to find ways to say the same thing differently without sounding like I was carbon copying myself.

    I really did enjoy the music, but I struggled to find a strong distinction between one review and what I wrote three days earlier.

    Loren:
    My thing is I listen to a record on repeat until I feel like I have to quit listening to it, and that means it’s time to write. When I’m reviewing something, I’ll listen to it every single day at work because I can listen to music most of the day. Once it starts getting to the point where I need a break, even if it’s a great record, that motivates me to crank the review out.

    Scott:
    Do most of your submissions come digitally? I’m a vinyl record label, and I like to send vinyl. I can send vinyl, and I’ve done that to various places. I know they can’t review everything I send, and I’m okay with that. But I feel like there’s a difference between getting the whole package in physical format versus reviewing the album on Spotify. Is there a preference you have? What do you normally get?

    Loren:
    Every year it’s less physical product. Because it’s free and nobody has to invest anything to send it digitally, I’d say 99% plus is digital. The amount that is actually relevant to what we do is also tiny because while we were built on punk and hardcore, we don’t have genre rules either.

    That’s kind of a double-edged sword because it means people will send anything and everything. I’ll get Eastern European jazz and random stuff from South America and all over the place, which is sometimes really cool, but it’s a lot.

    Scott:
    I get a fair amount of that stuff as well. Usually with things like that, even if I like it, my label is so dedicated to hardcore, punk, ska, and metal that if it’s European jazz, it doesn’t quite fit. I hate to say brand because it feels so unpunk, but it doesn’t fit the motif.

    Loren:
    For me, with the long-form approach and playing stuff on repeat, it narrows it down a little. I’m forced to make decisions about what I’m going to cover. I try to aim for stuff I’m interested in, or stuff that piqued my interest. I need a percentage of new music. I’m getting older and go to fewer shows, so this is one of the ways I find new music. It’s part of the motivation for why I keep doing it. It’s been fed to me, great.

    Scott:
    I imagine now, as editor-in-chief, you don’t do as many reviews as you used to. Would that be accurate?

    Loren:
    I hope so. The last couple years I’ve done more. It depends on other writing in my life and where burnout is hitting. I’ve been editor-in-chief long enough that I’ve got a system for stuff.

    Scott:
    You do a lot of interesting things. You do the one-question interviews and all sorts of different formats. What is the editorial process for your different types of features?

    Loren:
    The big thing is that all our writers can pick what they cover. That’s number one. The main features you’ll see on the homepage, like interviews and stuff, if someone on staff wants to do one, they’ll say, hey, I like this band. What do you think?

    It’s almost always a yes unless there’s some weird brand thing going on or maybe we just covered them in some other way that they didn’t realize another writer had done. I like to view it as a collective.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. It has that DIY ethos where everyone brings what they want, and you say, it’s not terrible, you like it, sounds like a great idea, run with it.

    Loren:
    Yeah. It’s not about my personal taste. Music is subjective. Let’s focus on the bigger picture of what you like and why, and hopefully it fits within this bigger world of independent stuff. I don’t think we need to be interviewing Bruce Springsteen, though if he calls us, I will take that call.

    Scott:
    As you should.

    Have you ever published anything where you got a reaction from people that surprised you? Positive, negative, or something where people really reacted strongly?

    Loren:
    I hate to say it, but I don’t have an immediate thing popping to mind. I’m sure there have been several. I think we have a generally introspective, quieter audience. Maybe we attract a similar audience to our current staff. I know we have readers, but it’s not a super engaged online social media kind of thing.

    Scott:
    I read your website fairly regularly, but I’m not the kind of person who leaves comments. I’m not even sure if I can leave comments.

    Loren:
    The current version doesn’t have that.

    Scott:
    Have you ever been shocked by anything revealed in an interview? A moment where you were like, wow, that was interesting as fuck?

    Loren:
    I’ve done this too long, so some of it blurs together. The back-end part still surprises me more. I’ll think, how did I pull that off?

    To get way outside punk rock, I once managed to arrange for one of our staff writers in Australia to get a photo pass to see Madonna in Sydney. I was sitting here in Minneapolis thinking, how did I even pull this off? How did I get these connections?

    Scott:
    Speaking of press, did you have a press pass when you were at The Fest in Gainesville this year?

    Loren:
    Yes. I’ve had one for almost every Fest I’ve been to. I went as a fan once or twice before.

    Scott:
    We probably walked past each other dozens of times then.

    Loren:
    I’m sure we did. I saw a bunch of your stickers and should have known. One of the bands I saw had a Goat Rope shirt, and we had just worked together for that stream.

    Scott:
    As a small DIY label, I have to say that the amount of support you show, your responsiveness in emails, and the fact that I’m almost always talking to you directly, even though you’re the editor-in-chief, really stands out. I know titles are titles, but I feel like you probably have a lot of other stuff to do besides responding to me. You always do it with clarity, respect, and kindness. I already enjoyed your website, but talking to you has made me enjoy it more.

    Loren:
    Thank you. It’s what I go for, honestly. It’s a part I enjoy too. My inbox every day probably gets 100-plus things, and the majority are generic PR that don’t really apply. I sift through that very quickly and flag the ones that are interesting and sound like a real person. I make time for it because it’s what I enjoy doing.

    Scott:
    Is there a certain way a band or label should write an email to you that says, hey, not only are we the genre you like, but we are sincere people and not just copy-and-pasting a thousand emails and BCCing 20 webzines in an email blast? What’s the best way?

    Loren:
    First, at least BCC it. I’ve tracked how many don’t BCC. Then you get a reply-all chain going, and that’s nuts.

    But everyone makes mistakes. Authenticity is the thing. Be who you are. I’m not looking for some formalist thing. I don’t really care how many plays you had last month on Spotify.

    Say, hey, I’m in this band, here’s what I do. We sound like these other bands who seem to fit the site. Those quick, two-paragraph emails that come from a first-person point of view always get my attention more.

    I’ve gotten a lot more of them in the last month, probably because all the for-profit stuff shuts down over the holidays. It stands out. I can’t listen to 100 bands a day. I’d lose my mind trying to remember what’s what. But when an email stands out, I’ll click.

    A quick link to a single is also very helpful. If you make me go through an attachment with another link and then another link, it bogs everything down.

    Scott:
    Are you the hub for everything? Or do people send directly to specific writers?

    Loren:
    People can cover what they want, as long as it fits. We do have a general promo submission inbox that I half monitor and is half automated.

    People can go directly to our writers too. They have email addresses on the site. If you see someone and think, this person is more my style than Loren is, it doesn’t hurt to reach out to them. I would still say send it to promos at scenepointblank.com and maybe CC the specific writer or email them separately. Personal touch works on me anyway.

    Scott:
    You mentioned paid sites. There are a fair number of sites where you pay to get your stuff covered. I have two minds on this. If I mail you a record that cost me $15, on some level I’m almost paying you because I’m giving you a physical product. But you don’t have to review it.

    If someone tells me I have to pay $3 for a review, I can do it, but I question the sincerity because they’re taking my money. Some places can still do it well. Havoc Underground does a really good job. But some places on SubmitHub are pure AI drivel. It’s garbage. They haven’t listened to it. It’s just copy and paste the press release. What are your thoughts?

    Loren:
    It’s definitely an evolving mediascape. I feel bound by those old-school rules that if you pay me, you’re creating some bias.

    On the other hand, Scene Point Blank doesn’t pay either, and our time is worth something. That causes burnout too. I think paid coverage can be well done if it is done the right way. Disclosure is the number one thing. A lot of the places that charge don’t say it. Maybe it doesn’t need a big Surgeon General-type sticker, but it should say this was a paid placement.

    Scott:
    That’s valid because then people know.

    Loren:
    I’m curious about reviews as a whole as media evolves. You can just click to YouTube, Bandcamp, or Spotify and get a song. Every so often we have behind-the-scenes conversations about whether reviews are still relevant when people can just play it themselves.

    Scott:
    That’s valid. I send every record to Razorcake and Maximum Rocknroll, and they only take physical media. Razorcake is still printed on paper. MRR is online now. I might read through some reviews, but I don’t remember ever reading a review and saying, now that I’ve read this, I have to buy it.

    I might say, now that I’ve read this review, I’m going to go to Bandcamp and listen to it. It’s a start. But the value of a review beyond stroking the ego of the label and the band is complicated.

    Loren:
    I like the medium because you can be creative with it. Razorcake adds a lot of that sometimes. I’m sure the bands don’t always appreciate it when it turns into somebody’s personal anecdote, but I like that.

    Scott:
    Those are always my favorite reviews. When someone says, this takes me back to a certain time in my life, or connects it to an experience, that’s the stuff I like.

    Loren:
    Exactly. You’re not writing the same copy-paste review every time. If you do it well, you can tie in personal things that make sense for a mood. I don’t want to read a review that is just a bullet list of song one sounds like this, song two sounds like this, song three sounds like that. That’s boring.

    Scott:
    How do you feel you’ve evolved as a webzine over the years in comparison to other webzines or print? How are you staying relevant?

    Loren:
    That’s a question I ask myself more lately. I’ve been doing this role for a long time, so I know I fall into habits. I think we do a lot of different kinds of features, and we have the freedom to mix it up.

    We can do a lot of straight-up interviews, but I try to find things not everyone talks about. I have a sporadic series called Don’t Quit Your Day Job, where instead of talking to a musician about their new record, we talk about how they got into their career. How does that affect practice time, touring, and things like that? It ties in, but it has a different focus.

    Scott:
    That’s similar to this podcast. Instead of talking to musicians about their bands, I’m trying to talk to the people who provide the community for the musicians to operate in.

    Loren:
    Exactly. I’m also big on demystifying the whole idea of rock stars. That’s all kind of made up, especially now. It’s not the days of Motley Crue or The Beatles.

    Scott:
    Frank Turner said something along the lines of, if the rock stars are so different from us, then who wants to listen to what they have to say anyway? They’re just people like you and me. If they’re not, if they’re some kind of pedestal person, then why would I want to hear what they have to say? It doesn’t reflect my life.

    Loren:
    Multimedia has been one of the questions too. How far do we go in? How far is too far before you lose your identity? Are we still a webzine if we’re putting all our time into social media or YouTube?

    We have a podcast and YouTube channel, which get extremely low usage, but they’re there for when we want to change it up.

    Scott:
    How often do you put out your podcast?

    Loren:
    The same schedule we do with almost all of our stuff, which means as time allows for the staff involved. Everyone is a volunteer.

    Scott:
    Even you as editor-in-chief are unpaid, right?

    Loren:
    Yeah. To be open, you just bought an ad, and that money goes into a fund that pays for hosting or, if I ship a physical promo out to someone, it helps with that. Physical promos aren’t common anymore, but when they happen, we send them places. Our writers are all over the place, so I’ve sent $60 packages to Canada and things like that.

    Scott:
    I run ads in various zines, but I never expect that just because I run an ad, everything I send will get reviewed or get a good review. I’m a mature adult who recognizes that running an ad is one thing, and expecting a review of every record or a good review of every record is something else. Those are two separate areas of the business as far as I’m concerned.

    Loren:
    It should be, but it’s hard to make that mental block for everybody, I’m sure.

    Scott:
    Maybe it’s because I was a political science major and almost a journalism major. I believe a newspaper can take an ad but also be critical of the place they got the ad from if need be. That’s the job of journalism. Journalism’s job is not to worry that Scott will cancel his ad if we don’t love this album or don’t review it. I’m more likely to double up because I know they’re doing honest work.

    Loren:
    Some places love those negative reviews, right? If they’re bad enough, you can play off it.

    Scott:
    I’m shocked at how little Maximum Rocknroll trashes my stuff because I’m so used to reading MRR trashing things. Maybe that’s just the stereotype. I do tend to get a lot of, “I don’t like live albums, but this is okay.”

    Loren:
    I can see that. It might be my take in a way. If I like live albums, they still don’t always get the same repeat play as studio albums. But sometimes you come back years later. When we chatted over email, I think you referenced VML Live. After the last time I saw Avail, I broke out my VML Live Avail record, and it took me back.

    Scott:
    Exactly. The last review you did for me was the Middle-Aged Queers and Raging Nathans split. I believe it was like a 7 out of 10. It was because of the recording production, but it wasn’t recorded by my normal people. Raging Nathans recorded their side in Germany.

    There was nothing you said that I disagreed with. I’m always trying to raise the level of sound quality on recorded live albums. The Middle-Aged Queers and Raging Nathans split is a great album. It caught all their energy, and I love it. But as far as modern recording quality, what you said was fair. I appreciated the honesty. If you said it sounded as slick as a studio recording, I would have said bullshit.

    Loren:
    It depends what the recorder is going for too. I have a friend who has recorded shows for years, and I pay a little more attention to that now. Is this a soundboard recording? Is it a mix of sources? What are they going for?

    Scott:
    Is it a Tascam recorder and the board? There are all kinds of ways. But I respected your honesty. What you liked, you genuinely liked. What you thought was a detraction, I was okay with. I can tell when smoke is getting blown up my ass.

    I listen to Avail Live at the Bottom of the Hill, and I think it’s a perfect fucking record. Better than any studio album they did. That’s just me.

    Loren:
    The one you referenced that you put out caught me because when you flipped the record, it was like you flipped a switch. It was two different recordings. And that’s fair because it’s not like they were the same show where one band opened for the other.

    Scott:
    Exactly. A lot of my splits aren’t from the same show. It all depends. But I don’t want to narrow it down and say everything has to be this. Punk rock has always been about the energy in the moment. I’m a history teacher, so I like to document the moment that occurred. Even if the moment is not pristine, it still mattered to somebody and should exist.

    Loren:
    It’s punk rock. Energy is a big part of it. There are some bands where I’m listening for precision, but not too many in the punk rock world, especially at a live show. I’m in Minneapolis, so I see Dillinger Four more often than many other bands. Great band. I don’t watch them for precision.

    Scott:
    Exactly. Crossed Keys are coming up in March. They were saying they like to put their all into the show, so they weren’t sure about the live recording because they might put too much into it.

    My response is, I’m free either way. I’m recording it. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. But as far as I’m concerned, putting too much into it is exactly what punk rock should sound like. Miss a chord. Be so excited that you’re bouncing around and don’t sing a couple words into the mic because you’re too far from the microphone. I’m okay with that. That’s a live record.

    Loren:
    If I wanted the studio, I already have that.

    Scott:
    Exactly. A live record is almost like a best-of album, except it shows what it was like if you never got to see the band live. My first punk album was Circle Jerks Gig. It opened with “Here we are, we’re the Circle Jerks,” and I was just stunned. Then I bought one of their studio albums after that and thought the same songs weren’t nearly as good as on the live album. From that point forward, I became a live album dude.

    My first Agnostic Front was live. My first Fear was live. My first Exploited was live. My first Ramones was live. I didn’t have this in my head as a theory at the time, but I figured if they play the songs live, they must be the best songs. Why would they play their shitty songs live?

    Loren:
    I think I came of age on live records in the CD era, which was a knock on it too. With CDs, you’d always have the conversation cut off between tracks. It felt interrupted. You’d hear something start and stop. That was probably largely a byproduct of CDs.

    Scott:
    Fifteen’s first album is also a live album. There’s an entire track that’s just the dude talking for three minutes. He talked a lot. I enjoy what he had to say, but when I put it on for the fifth time, I did not need to hear that talk again.

    Loren:
    I have a bunch of those. During COVID, I finally ripped all my CDs into MP3s, which was decades late. Now, when those tracks come up on playlists, I’m like, should I edit this track? Just cut out that 10-minute part?

    I have that on reissues too. I have a couple of Stiff Little Fingers reissues where there’s a 20-minute interview with Jake Burns at the end. It’s interesting once. I don’t expect anyone to listen to an interview all the time.

    Scott:
    I have an Agent Orange one where there’s a long interview at the end. I’ve listened to it off and on over 15 years, but I often skip past it.

    Loren:
    I hope everybody enjoys watching and listening to this, but I doubt many people are going to come back for a fifth time.

    Scott:
    Exactly. I don’t know that I’ve ever gone back and listened to a podcast episode again. Have you?

    Loren:
    I don’t do as many podcasts as you’d think given what I do. I don’t think so, not on purpose. There are some things where you hear something and think it sounds interesting, then five minutes in you realize you’ve heard it before.

    Scott:
    I even struggle to rewatch movies and TV shows now because there’s so much new content available. Why would I rewatch something I’ve already seen when there’s always something new to jump to? I relisten to records. That’s the thing I put on over and over.

    Loren:
    I think we consume music differently too. I write at my day job, and most people I talk to say they can only listen to instrumental music while writing. I can literally sing along and write a sentence. It’s a different part of my brain. I hear the melody more than the words. I can’t do NPR or hip hop while working because it’s more word-focused.

    Scott:
    Do you have particular bands you tend to listen to, or are you always focused on bands you need to write reviews for?

    Loren:
    It’s streaky and depends. Familiar is better if I need to concentrate. Like I said, I hear the melody more than the words. The harder it is to hear the words, the easier it is for me to work.

    Scott:
    So if you’re not listening to something for review, what were you listening to today?

    Loren:
    Honestly, it was a tired Monday, so I didn’t have the radio going that much. I went to bed a little too late last night.

    Scott:
    Good for you. Too many people tell me they can’t stay up late, and I’m always like, shhh. I spent years being a teacher and having band practice until one o’clock. Then I would get up at 5 a.m. and go to work because all my bandmates worked retail or restaurants, so we wouldn’t start practice until like 11.

    Then during the pandemic, they all got nine-to-five jobs. We started at seven, and I thought, great, we can practice until midnight. But they wanted to end at nine or ten so they could sleep. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? I haven’t slept for two years, and now you guys need sleep?

    It’s hard to teach middle school kids tired. It’s hard when you’re not tired, but it’s very hard when you are.

    Loren:
    You didn’t just go in and tell them you had band practice?

    Scott:
    I did tell them I had band practice. But I still had seven periods to teach. One time I came in and told them it was my birthday the night before. My buddy took me out, we saw The Subhumans, we ate a bunch of hot dogs, then went through the McDonald’s drive-through, and I got two double quarter pounders with cheese. So I was suffering from the meat sweats and the beer sweats. I didn’t drive, for the record. But here I am after an hour nap.

    Loren:
    That’s what you have to look forward to when you grow up, kids.

    Scott:
    Exactly. You’re going to go out to a Subhumans show, eat a lot of shitty food afterward, and go to work the next day.

    Loren:
    Subhumans will still be going because they’re timeless.

    Scott:
    They are older than I am, and they’re on stage playing. Also, Subhumans Live in a Dive is better than any Subhumans studio album. I will die on that hill.

    Loren:
    I don’t think I have that.

    Scott:
    Way better. Send me your hate mail. I’ll respond in kind.

    Loren:
    As you’re talking about this, I’m getting feature ideas in the back of my head. One of the struggles of having limited staff is that I’m always thinking of things we can do with guest features. I’m always taking volunteers.

    I try to mix it up. Too many guest features and you lose your voice, but you want to balance it and make things interesting. For a couple years, I was doing freelance writing on a lot of things, and I think I programmed my brain to always look for a new angle on something people have heard before.

    Scott:
    I think you do that. You have the single-question interviews. What are some other formats you do besides those?

    Loren:
    We have over a thousand of those one-question interviews out there. They were designed with the idea that you can read them like a Twitter feed if you’re bored at work and just go through them.

    Scott:
    I think I’m the asshole who responded with five paragraphs to one question.

    Loren:
    I love the variety. Some people do that, and I’ve literally had a couple that were one word. I just roll with it.

    After we did a bunch of those, I did a spin-off that we occasionally do called What’s That Noise? That’s gear-focused. I try not to ask the same person the same question, even though if you ask them five years later, they’d probably give a different answer.

    I don’t play anything myself, which makes music writing fun and challenging in its own way. I got over the imposter syndrome. It makes it harder for me to ask gear questions, but that’s also one of the ways we try to tie into multimedia. I’ll ask people to send pictures or a YouTube clip.

    It’s not something we’ve used a lot, but we’ve had fun examples. Joey Cape from Lagwagon talked about his first guitar and shared the story behind it. Fresh Prince of Darkness from Dwarves did a little tour of his studio room. Those things have been pretty cool.

    Alongside that, we also have bands that put out demos and things like that. That’s one of the things I like about Scene Point Blank. Everyone is on equal footing.

    Scott:
    I appreciate that aesthetic. You have big bands, small bands, and everything in between. You’re not gatekeeping in that way. You allow writers to bring their own perspectives. It’s fresh perspective and old heads together.

    Loren:
    If it’s good, write about it. That’s kind of my thought. Depending on the feature type, we might not run a main page headline on a local band that has played one show, but we have a blog section too. If you are a writer for us and really want to write about that band that played one show, there’s a spot for it. I’m not going to say no.

    Scott:
    You gave one of my releases a full front-page featured stream.

    Loren:
    That’s another thing we do once a month. The idea is just to share music. When I took over as editor-in-chief, I came in with some ideas. One of them was, what if there’s a way to let people listen to something while they read? This was around 2010, and we didn’t have embed codes on everything yet. It seemed obvious. Let people listen to music as they read about music.

    It’s also a way to highlight something. I reach out to labels I work with. That’s how we connected. I asked if you had anything that timed with our next month. I try to rotate through, so I won’t ask you again for a while. I try to mix up what’s in there and get a wide variety of stuff.

    Scott:
    I figure you probably won’t ask me again for two years, maybe even longer. That may have been my one shot for the next half decade, and I’m okay with that because it shouldn’t be all about one label. It should be multiple labels. Your website doesn’t allow for monopolization, from what I can tell. It seems broad-based, which I appreciate.

    Loren:
    Thank you. Matt’s design work plays into that too. Labels are welcome to reach out for featured streams. You don’t have to pay to do it. It’s just timing. Does it fit the site? Do we like it?

    Scott:
    What do you see five years from now? I know the media landscape is going to change. Where do you see it going?

    Loren:
    I think it’s going to continue the splintering that it’s doing now. I don’t know if there will be hubs left. I think Scene Point Blank and some of these other places are still operating under the model of having a website and everything else complements the website. I think it might pull more toward, this is a YouTube channel, this is a TikTok, this is whatever.

    Scott:
    Do you have anyone on volunteer staff who handles social media?

    Loren:
    We don’t have TikTok at all right now.

    Scott:
    As you shouldn’t. What about Instagram?

    Loren:
    It depends on the platform. We have some people who prefer one platform over another, so they volunteer and do those. Twitter is mostly automated, and we all know where Twitter is headed. It’s basically a newsfeed of what posted to the site, with an occasional real human post.

    Facebook is more where we share highlights. I tend to do that, and a couple other people help with things like the one-question interviews.

    Instagram is shared by a handful of writers and staff. We just added a photographer in Toronto, and she’s posting there. Instagram is the most communal. My very broad statement is: if you see something cool that is music-related, share it. I don’t care if it’s a concert, something at a record store, whatever. I once walked through downtown Minneapolis while it was snowing and took a picture of a Prince mural in the snow. It fit the theme.

    I’d like to do more of that stuff. Social media is best when it’s human and not automated, so it’s really just what we can do with our resources. I just started a Bluesky for Scene Point Blank about a month ago.

    Scott:
    I haven’t even gotten there yet. Social media is essential for me as a record label, but I can only spend so much time on it. I mostly use Instagram and cross-post to Facebook and Threads. I don’t know anyone who goes to Threads, but I’m sure someone does.

    I have two teenage kids, so they’re on TikTok and Snapchat. I’ve tried TikTok, but I don’t think I understand how it’s supposed to be used because I’m almost 50. I just post the same stuff on TikTok that I post on Instagram. I don’t have time to craft narrative videos.

    Loren:
    That’s exactly it. I’m curious where content is going. A lot of the sites that do similar things to us, with different angles or themes, are run by people like us. People in their 40s and 50s who are getting older. The sites that have gone away often do so because life takes over with priorities, sick parents, or whatever.

    Scott:
    Do you think paper zines are coming back more? I ran into some young kids in Pennsylvania who had their zine, Arsenic is a zine in DC run by some kids, and HAUS is another zine in Maryland. In my local area, there’s Outsider Magazine, which is a free newsprint zine that comes out twice a year. They came back after a five-year hiatus. Maybe paper is coming back. Have you ever considered putting anything out in print?

    Loren:
    I think print is doing well. I know friends who are in the zine scene and go to DIY conventions and all that stuff, besides Kinko’s being gone.

    We’ve talked with some print zines about doing collaborations. I don’t see us switching directions or anything because I certainly don’t have the bandwidth.

    Scott:
    I get that entirely. I’m doing physical records, and I’m not even sure that’s the future or the present. It’s somewhere in between.

    Loren:
    Time will tell there too. I saw the numbers last year, and I think there was a 50% drop or something like that.

    Scott:
    I started during the pandemic, and I’m not an economist. I didn’t do any metrics or statistics on it, but the amount of records I sold in the first two years was exceptionally higher than the last two years, even though I put out more records.

    Part of me says it’s because people were stuck at home. They needed something to entertain themselves. They had extra money because they weren’t going to restaurants, movies, or bars. Ordering a record was something they could look forward to. Once the pandemic ended, everyone went back to Spotify and spending money outside the home. For those two years, I was like, this is going to be great.

    Loren:
    It’s always changing. The biggest thing now is how people hear about things. During the pandemic, everyone was online all the time. We still are, but hopefully a little less than in 2020.

    Scott:
    My general hope is to find 100 people who like what I do so I can sell every record. Just 100 people out of billions. Somewhere in the continental U.S., because I can ship to Europe and Canada but it’s pricey. Somewhere, there have to be 100 people. That’s all I need.

    Loren:
    I know a lot of labels are doing subscription packages now, where you have a club and get this many releases a year.

    Scott:
    I’ve thought about that. I just haven’t figured it out yet. Like any other business, I’m constantly chasing my tail and figuring things out. I’m married with two kids and in a doctoral program, so it’s not like I’m sitting on my laurels doing nothing.

    Loren:
    I think you probably have the same issue we do, where you cover so much variety. You put out a ska record and then a hardcore record, and you’re looking for the 100 people who like both.

    Scott:
    That’s inherently the problem. I don’t stick to one specific genre. If I like it, I’m going to put it out. I put out Outerloop. What are they? I don’t know. Post-punk? Post-hardcore? Sometimes Spanish vocals, sometimes not. Really good. I don’t know how to describe it, but good.

    Loren:
    I like that one. I think we premiered one of the songs. When you sent it, I think it took the second listening because I was ready for hardcore. It threw me for a second, then I was like, yeah. You need something for every mood.

    Scott:
    I like a lot of stuff. I can’t just be all folk punk or all ska. It’s the same way with shows I book. I know the Hudson Valley loves beatdown hardcore, but I’m going to throw a ska band on there for you. And an emo punk band, and maybe a skate punk band. It’s all going to work together because I don’t want to hear the same thing for four hours straight.

    Loren:
    I love those shows where it’s five bands and it doesn’t have to be five different styles, but at least two or three.

    Scott:
    At least enough diversity that it breaks it up. I don’t want to go to a five-band Ramonescore show. Even if it was the Ramones, I wouldn’t listen to them for five hours.

    Loren:
    There used to be a fest in Baltimore, I think, where I loved a lot of the bands, but I don’t think I could do three days of that.

    Scott:
    That’s one of the reasons I like Fest. There is certainly a Gainesville sound, but there are also bands like Asshole Parade, Fortitude, 430 Steps, and GILT. There’s enough other stuff. Then there are the ska bands. I really cling to ska at Fest now because there’s enough going on that I’m not just listening to the Gainesville-style melodic punk, which I love. But three days, 12 hours a day?

    Loren:
    One of my favorite Fest memories is when Mariachi El Bronx played. It was the first thing on a Sunday morning, and everyone was just sitting on the grass because they were exhausted. It was exactly the chill-out music everyone needed in that moment.

    Scott:
    Before we wrap up, if somebody wanted to start their own zine, whether web or print, what would be your advice to the people out there, young, old, or middle-aged, who say, you know what I want to do? I want to do music journalism without any pay whatsoever. How can I do that?

    Loren:
    Do your thing. Do it your way. You’re not going to burn out that way.

    If you’re sinking everything into doing it someone else’s way, you’ll be really into it and probably great at it for a while, but it’s going to take a toll. You’ll get burnout. You have to find ways to balance. Do your own thing because that’s what makes this stuff great. You want your own voice. We don’t need copies.

    Scott:
    I think you just gave wisdom for the ages. That goes across the board. What should someone major in? What should they do with their life? What kind of music should they play? You just said, be true to yourself. That’s the best advice anyone can give.

    Loren:
    And know where your limits are. If you’re losing it, take a step back. Take a deep breath, pause, and know when to re-examine. I’m a creature of habit, so I’m good at that.

    Scott:
    Loren, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed talking to you. I’ve enjoyed learning about Scene Point Blank. I hope everyone at home has enjoyed watching or listening to Loren and me discuss this amazing webzine.

    If you haven’t checked it out yet, please go do so. There will be information in the credits for the show. Everyone have a great day, and I’ll see you again soon. Thank you. Have a good night.

    Loren:
    Thanks to you, Scott, and all the listeners.

  • Episode 10: Savannah and Dez of Poison Paradise Records

    Scott:
    Alright everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, photographers, labels, graphic artists, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY punk label that specializes in hardcore, punk, ska, and metal albums on vinyl. All live albums, because live albums are how it should fucking be.

    I have 30 years of experience playing drums in hardcore and punk bands in New York, Florida, and DC. Obviously, DCxPC. I’m also a show promoter and booker, and I’ve had the privilege of working with a lot of amazing people.

    Today's guests are Savannah and Dez from Poison Paradise Records, whom I first came to know as members of the kickass punk band The Modern Fucking Natives. No, “fucking” isn’t in the name, but it should be.

    Beyond their musical endeavors, both have become vital pillars of support for the punk scene in multiple capacities. Dez has earned a reputation as an exceptional sound engineer and recording specialist. I've had the privilege of working with him at numerous shows, where his meticulous attention to detail and unwavering dedication consistently bring out the best sound in every band that takes the stage.

    Savannah brings her expertise to the business side, providing comprehensive support to bands through tour booking, marketing services, EPK creation, website development, and social media management. Her work helps artists navigate the complex landscape of modern music promotion while staying true to DIY principles.

    Having run a label myself while writing reviews, booking and promoting shows, and hosting this podcast, I know firsthand the challenges of wearing multiple hats in the scene. I'm excited to dive in and see how these two balance it all while maintaining high standards across everything they fucking do.

    What's up, guys?

    Savannah:
    Thank you for having us. We’re very excited.

    Scott:
    Like I said, you have a broad array of things, and I’m not exactly sure where I want to start. Is there some place you would like to start? Give me your one-minute elevator speech of what it is you offer the world. You are a major supporting aspect of the scene in my mind.

    Savannah:
    It starts with being in a band, right? You want to write a song. Then you have to figure out how to write a song. You want to record a song. Then you have to figure out how to record it. You want to play a show. How do you book a show? You want to go on tour. How do you go on tour?

    To go on tour, you need a website presence. You need social media. You need an EPK. You need material that makes it easy for someone else to understand who you are and what you do.

    A lot of what we offer comes from the things we had to figure out for ourselves. We learned how to do it because we needed it, and now we can help other bands with those same pieces.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. I’ve booked tours for myself for years, and I’ve booked tours for other bands, but I’ve always refused to take money for it because if you do it for free and help someone out, and it becomes a shit show, then hey, I helped you out. You didn’t know what you were doing. I did my best.

    But if someone gives you a flat fee or a percentage of the door, there’s more pressure. You’re not 100% in control. You’re booking someone in Iowa, dealing with a promoter you hopefully know, or maybe someone you were referred to, and you’re taking that chance.

    How do you manage that?

    Savannah:
    Open communication. I don’t keep anybody from anybody else. The venue knows who is coming. The artist knows where they’re going. They’re aware of the promoter. Everybody is put in touch with everybody.

    As far as payment goes, if it is under a certain amount, I’ll take a flat rate. If it is over a certain amount, I’ll take a percentage. That’s because it is my time, and these are my relationships with venues.

    I also take on the social media side. I’ll put the event together, make the flyer, and do a series of posts: the day it’s announced, a month in advance, two weeks in advance, a week in advance, and the day of the show.

    I do that because very often bands say they’re excited and they’re going to promote, and then they don’t. Or the venue might be a restaurant or brewery, and they have their own shit to do. They aren’t sitting there promoting a show the way a music venue would. They’re hoping the people they hired to come in will do that for them.

    I like to remove that pressure. If I can take certain pressures away from the band, the venue, or the event itself, then they can give back that trust and show up and do their job a little easier.

    Dez:
    Scott, let me ask you a question. Have you ever booked a show three or four months in advance, and then when you hit up the venue again, they say, that manager hasn’t worked here for three weeks. Who are you? We’ve never heard of this show.

    Scott:
    Absolutely. That’s happened. A lot of these places have turnover. You think you have a show locked in, and then the person you worked with is gone. That’s why getting things in writing matters.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. Everything should be in writing. Even if we agree to something on the phone, I’ll send an email and ask them to confirm it. It protects everybody. It doesn’t mean nothing will go wrong, but it gives you something to go back to.

    Scott:
    So if you’re booking a tour for a band, and I’m the band on the road, and I’m in the middle of Bumfuck, Idaho, and suddenly my show is canceled, what do you say when I call you at 10 o’clock at night freaking out?

    Savannah:
    I say, let’s talk about our options. We can rush and try to make something happen, or you can take the night and rest. We can regroup and travel safely to the next place.

    If you are absolutely dead set on playing, of course I’ll make calls. I’ll see who else is in the area and try to figure out what happened. But sometimes the sensible thing is to calm down, regroup, and end the night in a way that keeps everyone safe.

    Scott:
    I’ve had shows get canceled, and we just went and bought a case of beer and a cat puzzle, went to a hotel, watched CSI, and did the puzzle. We were done. Other nights, a bad situation turned into something funny later.

    We played a show in California once where the bartender got wasted really quickly. At the end of the night, she said she wasn’t paying us anything because we didn’t bring anyone in. We were like, but you’re not even the owner. We didn’t have this agreement with you. And you didn’t promote. We’re a touring band.

    So we ended up playing Smash Bros. and laughing about it. Now it’s a funny story.

    Savannah:
    That’s exactly it. Sometimes you have to find a way to end the night on a decent note. It may be frustrating in the moment, but later it becomes the story about that weird night on tour.

    Scott:
    Do you deal with a lot of bands that have never toured before? Do you have to give them advice on what to expect?

    Savannah:
    Yes. A lot of bands think they want to tour, but they don’t always understand what touring actually means. It’s not just showing up and playing. It’s planning routes, packing, communication, money, food, sleep, merch, and knowing that something is going to go wrong.

    You have to be prepared. You have to be honest about what you are getting into.

    Scott:
    One thing people don’t realize is how much things change. You can have a list of contacts, and within a year or two that list can be heavily outdated. That band isn’t around anymore. Maybe they’ll still answer the email and tell you who is booking now, but maybe not. The venue might shut down. The promoter might be taking a break.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. Even now when booking, there are venues that say they’re still trying to rebound from COVID and haven’t brought music back yet. These are places that used to have music and beer every night of the week. Now it’s just beer.

    Scott:
    What’s the longest tour you’ve booked?

    Savannah:
    For ourselves? Seven months straight.

    Scott:
    Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick.

    Savannah:
    It was amazing. Every day was a learning experience. If people ask how experienced we are, seven months straight on the road is a lot. It’s not every experience you can ever get, but it is a lot of touring years crammed into a couple seasons.

    Scott:
    That’s fair. People ask me how I know how to book, and I say I’ve been booking shows for 30 years. But most of the tours I booked were for my own bands. Half the local shows I booked were because I was trading shows so I could go on tour.

    I’d say, hey, I need a show in Columbus, Ohio. If you book me there, I’ll book you in Baltimore next time you come through. That’s literally how I got into booking shows.

    Savannah:
    That is a great strategy, and I don’t hear people talk about it enough. I think some people feel like if they ask for help or trade shows, they won’t seem put together. But DIY doesn’t mean you have to do everything alone. It means building a network.

    Scott:
    That’s important. A lot of people think DIY means do it entirely by yourself. But really, it’s about creating your own systems and networks outside the mainstream.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. It is about community. It’s about knowing who you can call, who you can help, and who can help you. That’s how it works.

    Scott:
    You do more than booking. You also help bands with EPKs, websites, social media, and those pieces that bands often don’t think about until they need them.

    Savannah:
    Yes. A lot of bands want to tour or get bigger shows, but they don’t have the materials ready. A venue or promoter needs to know who you are quickly. If they have to dig through your Instagram for a blurry video and a link that doesn’t work, that is not helping you.

    An EPK should make it easy. Who are you? Where are you from? What do you sound like? What are your strongest links? Do you have good photos? Do you have music available? Have you played notable shows? Do you have press?

    Scott:
    That’s the kind of stuff I look for too. If I’m trying to book someone or put them on a show, I want to find what I need quickly. Don’t make it hard for people to help you.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. There is a skill set to pitching. You don’t want to send something so long that the person has to scroll forever, but you also don’t want to send something so short that it just says, “We need a show.”

    There has to be a balance. Say hello. Be direct. Give the important information. Make it easy to respond.

    Scott:
    Instagram especially is brutal for that. Things get lost. If someone sends me a long message and I’m looking at it on my phone, I may not be able to fully process it right then. Then it gets pushed down and disappears.

    Savannah:
    That happens all the time. On every platform, you are getting notifications about other people’s posts, reactions, comments, messages, and everything else. You have to sift through so much just to find the information you actually need.

    Scott:
    I’ve definitely had things get buried. I’ll be looking for a mock-up cover or a message someone sent, and I’m like, where did it go? It’s gone.

    Savannah:
    That’s why having things organized matters. If you’re booking a tour, promoting a show, or launching something, you need to keep your information in a place where you can actually find it.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. I think there’s also a difference between what I do as a label and what you’re doing. I might put out a band’s live record, but I’m not providing artist management beyond that. I might refer them to someone for an EPK, or help them with booking contacts, but I don’t sign a band and manage them long-term. It’s usually a one-and-done deal.

    You seem like you’re able to provide more comprehensive support.

    Savannah:
    For now, it is service-based. Like you said, let’s work one step at a time. We would love to support people more financially someday, but right now we can guide and offer support in other ways.

    Scott:
    And I wouldn’t expect you to support a band financially without them paying you for the work. You can’t do that for free on a real level. Of course there are favors. Friends call and say they’re stranded in Pennsylvania and ask if you know anywhere they can go. Then you help.

    Savannah:
    Of course. We’re always willing to lend a hand wherever we can. We’ve had friends we played with in Florida who were stranded in Pennsylvania. They asked if we knew where they could go, and we gave them access to our Pennsylvania contacts. That’s community.

    Scott:
    That’s how it should be. I had a buddy coming up in February, and I already had two shows that week. I sent him to another friend who books at Night Swim in Kingston. I said, talk to Quinn. I think they’d be interested. I’ll help as best I can and I’ll be there, but I can’t officially be the promoter of three shows in one week, all in Kingston. That’s too much.

    Savannah:
    Right. You have to know your capacity.

    Scott:
    That’s important. I can’t promote it physically, make flyers, push it on social media, and do right by all three shows at the same time. I’d be unfair to the venues, the bands, and myself.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. Taking on too much helps no one. You have to know when to say, I can help, but I can’t own this.

    Scott:
    How did the Poison Paradise thing start? Was it just a practical thing because you were already doing all this for yourselves and other people?

    Savannah:
    Pretty much. It came from doing it ourselves and realizing other people needed the same things. We learned through our own band, through touring, through booking, through recording, and through figuring out how to present ourselves.

    Dez:
    A lot of it came from necessity. We needed to record. We needed to play shows. We needed to tour. We needed to make things sound good. If we couldn’t find someone to do something, or couldn’t afford it, we figured it out.

    Scott:
    That’s the real DIY thing. I need this, so I’m going to learn how to do it.

    Dez:
    Exactly. And once you learn it, you can help other people do it better too.

    Scott:
    Dez, I’ve worked with you on live sound, and you’re meticulous. You care about the details in a way that I really appreciate. How did you get into sound?

    Dez:
    It started from being in bands and wanting things to sound better. You play enough shows where the sound is bad, or you can’t hear yourself, or nobody knows what’s happening, and eventually you start learning.

    You start asking why something sounds bad. Is it the room? Is it the PA? Is it the guitar tone? Is it the drums? Is it the way everything is placed? Once you start paying attention, you learn that small changes can make a huge difference.

    Scott:
    That’s something I’ve seen you do at shows. You don’t just set stuff up and walk away. You listen. You adjust.

    Dez:
    You have to. Every room is different. Every band is different. The same setup won’t work the same way in every space.

    Scott:
    When you do sound at Snugs, you’re working with what they have. But if you’re doing sound at Snapper Magee’s and bringing your own PA, does that make you more comfortable because you know your equipment?

    Dez:
    Not necessarily. The venue itself still changes everything. I may know my gear, but I don’t know what the room is going to do until I’m there.

    Sometimes on tour I’d look at a room and say, it would be a good idea to move the PA way off to the side, pull it back, and align it more with the bass amp. Then I’d move the bass amp closer to the PA speakers. That can make a difference because of time delay and how sound moves in the room.

    Scott:
    Snapper Magee’s is like a fairly open space, but the band is kind of between two walls. It’s like they’re in a box. I have no idea what that means acoustically because I’m a drummer and I just hit shit.

    Dez:
    A lot of it comes down to the volume of the band. If the drummer plays soft or medium, that’s cool because then the guitar doesn’t have to be as loud. If the drummer slams, the guitar has to come up because otherwise you won’t hear it over the cymbals and snare.

    If the venue is huge, the drummer can slam and the guitar can go up, and it might still be fine. But that’s rare in local punk and metal shows.

    Scott:
    It’s funny because 15 years ago, when I went on tour, most things weren’t even mic’d. It was literally just a PA for vocals, maybe a monitor for the vocalist, and everyone played out of their amps. Even at places the size of Snugs, it was just a vocal PA, like band practice.

    Dez:
    I’ve seen shows at Snugs where they only did vocals, and I’m like, they don’t even realize what PA they’re working with. They’re not utilizing it.

    When we play shows, depending on the room, I might mic the floor tom because I want to hear the rumble. I’ll mic the kick to get that bass out of it. The snare and cymbals are usually loud enough to cut through on their own.

    Scott:
    Most of the time, if anything got mic’d when I was playing, it was my snare and bass drum. I never understood micing the snare first because I have a high-pitched snare with a loud crack. It’s going to cut through. I’m not really concerned about that.

    Dez:
    Right. It depends on the drummer, the room, and what the band needs. There’s no one-size-fits-all answer.

    Scott:
    You’re working on a studio now too, right?

    Dez:
    Yeah. The studio is up here, and we’re building an acoustic wall. We’re moving the monitor speakers further away. In the basement, we’re building a rehearsal space. We can record drums in the basement or up here on the second floor.

    This room is great. It’s big, with drywall, wood, and empty tunnels behind us. It’s good for sound to pass through and get stuck.

    Scott:
    Awesome. So by the time people hear this, the studio should be ready to go. People need to reach out to you for studio work. And you’re also ready to help with booking and everything in between.

    Are you working with anyone right now on press or booking?

    Savannah:
    Winter is actually the time to do it. This is when nobody is playing a Thanksgiving show or Christmas show. People are visiting family. So this is the time to hunker down, work on your songs, and get ready to do your press. This is homework time.

    We just worked with a band in Philly called Drive Through Groove. I put together a new website for them. They’re great.

    I also just started working with a Hudson Valley favorite, Kirsten Lee. She has a lot of residencies around here. She’s like a country-pop blend. We’re going to do some EPK and website stuff.

    I’ve also had a few inquiries in the last couple days from people looking for information on sync deals and the logistics behind that.

    Dez:
    And we’re always looking for people to record. We have the time and availability right now.

    Savannah:
    Now is the season to jump into booking too. Things are filling up fast. Even Snugs is booked through the summer right now.

    Scott:
    I’m booked there in March, and I have Snapper Magee’s booked through May. World Sucks asked me to book their June tour, and they just got me the dates today. It’s January, so six months is enough time. I already have the EPK, but I didn’t know their tour route. They weren’t telling me where they wanted to go, so it’s hard to book without that.

    Savannah:
    A lot of people don’t realize how much planning goes into it. It’s not just booking the shows. You have to prepare your merch, get it ready to pack, and do a practice pack.

    Dez:
    When we toured, every box had its place in the trailer. If one thing was out of place, not everything was fitting. It was perfectly Tetris.

    Scott:
    I took my daughter and her friend back to school today, and they were concerned there wouldn’t be enough space in my Kia Carnival. They looked at it and said, wow, there’s so much space. I was like, I have toured with four people for over two weeks with guitar amps, bass amp, drums, merch, and luggage. You don’t think I can handle five suitcases and skis? Trust me, I know how to pack a van.

    Savannah:
    That is so funny.

    Scott:
    There’s a lot bands don’t think about before touring. It’s not just playing the songs. It’s how you pack, how you drive, how you communicate, how you get paid, how you sleep, and how you keep your shit together when something goes wrong.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. Touring is logistics. The show is only one part of it.

    Scott:
    And knowing where to spend money matters too. I book shows, and people ask why I’m paying for sound, paying for a door person, and paying bands guarantees. I say it’s advertising. Supporting music is advertising for my label. It’s meeting bands I might want to put out. It’s getting people to come to a show, handing them a record, and talking to them. That’s the best way I know how to do it.

    I’m a record label. I don’t go on tour, so I bring the tour to me.

    Savannah:
    Knowing when to hold on to your money is almost as important as knowing where to put it. You have to be smart with your investments.

    A lot of bands get overwhelmed and feel like something has to happen right now or it never will. That can lead to bad financial choices or pushing the wrong material at the wrong time.

    There’s also this culture where people jump on trends and pray for a viral moment, thinking it will launch them into success. But if you don’t have the foundation, if you’re not posting good content consistently and putting out music consistently, then what happens after the viral moment? Everyone gets their 15 minutes, but then it’s gone, and you’re back where you started.

    Scott:
    That’s why you need to be a band playing music you actually like. Trends come and go. How many times has ska come and gone? But if you like ska and want to be in a fucking ska band, then be in the ska band when no one wants to listen to ska, and still be in it when everyone suddenly wants ska again.

    Savannah:
    Exactly. If you’re doing it because you love it, you can survive those waves. If you’re only chasing what you think will work, you’ll burn out.

    Scott:
    That’s a good point. The bands that last are usually the bands that actually believe in what they’re doing.

    Savannah:
    Yes. And part of our job is helping people figure out what they need, what they’re ready for, and what they are not ready for.

    Scott:
    And sometimes that means being honest with them.

    Savannah:
    Very honest.

    Scott:
    Like, you are an immature twat and you are not ready to go on tour.

    Savannah:
    Sometimes people need to hear the truth before they get in a van and make everything worse for themselves.

    Scott:
    That’s valuable though. Sometimes people need someone to say, you need to slow down and prepare.

    Savannah:
    Yes. That doesn’t mean don’t do it. It means do it right.

    Scott:
    I think that’s what I respect most about what you both are doing. It comes naturally and organically from what you’ve done for yourselves. You’re not just saying you can do these things because you made a website and decided you’re a company. You’ve done this as musicians and artists. You’ve toured. You’ve booked. You’ve recorded. You’ve learned the hard way.

    Savannah:
    That means a lot.

    Scott:
    You have a proven track record from your own work, and you can provide that support to other people across genres because you’re both musically interested in more than one thing. I respect how you’re building it in a way that matches your actual capacity. You’re not speaking bigger than what can be done.

    I’m really excited to see what 2025 has in store for both of you.

    Savannah:
    Thank you. That means a lot.

    Dez:
    Thank you.

    Scott:
    Thank you everyone for listening. This has been Dez and Savannah from Poison Paradise Records. I hope you fucking enjoyed them as much as I did.

    All the details on how to reach them for sound, whether it’s live or studio, booking, EPKs, websites, or just to be told that you are an immature twat who is not really thinking life through and thinks you’re just going to go on tour and everything is going to be hunky fucking dory, Savannah will set you straight.

    Right on. Cheers. Fucking A. Bye everybody.

  • Episode 9: Andy Scullin of Unsigned518

    Scott:
    Alright everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore, punk, ska, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. With over 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands across DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows, I've had the privilege of working with and meeting a lot of amazing people.

    Speaking of which, today's guest is Andy Scullin, creator, producer, and host of Unsigned518, a podcast dedicated to spotlighting bands and musicians in the 518 area. I love Andy’s seemingly unscripted conversations with local musicians and bands, and his weekly feature, Unsigned518’s Weekend Spotlight, highlights upcoming shows in the area and features songs from bands playing those shows.

    While it is not specifically a punk rock podcast, Andy features local artists ranging from stoner doom to blues to hardcore and punk. He's a dedicated fan and supporter of the scene. After I moved to the Hudson Valley in 2023, his work was and continues to be an invaluable resource for understanding who's who in the Albany scene.

    I am stoked to hear about his podcast and more. How you doing, Andy?

    Andy:
    I'm good, man. Wow. What an introduction. Can we curse on this show?

    Scott:
    Fuck yeah.

    Andy:
    Good. What a fucking introduction. It’s good to be here.

    Scott:
    I appreciate it. I’m not exactly sure when I first caught wind of your podcast. It was probably within six months or so of me being here. I used to do reviews on my website’s blog, and I got something from some Albany bands. Whenever I get something, I scour through their social media to see what’s going on. I’m sure one of them had you tagged on something, and I thought, this sounds like a dope-ass way for me to find out what’s going on.

    I was really enamored with the variety of what you do. I can hear about everything happening in the Capital District from this dude, whether it is stuff that I’m intimately involved in, like punk rock, or stuff that is not normally my cup of tea, but I’m still fascinated by what’s going on.

    So tell me about your podcast as if I had no idea what the fuck it is.

    Andy:
    In the introduction, you said it’s not necessarily a punk rock show. I’m a punk rock dude, but I’m really trying to expand my musical horizons. I don’t want to focus on one genre. I want to have all genres on. My natural tendency is to drift back into the punk rock because that’s my shit.

    Scott:
    You’re wearing a Misfits shirt right now, and in most of your logos you have a Ramones shirt on. You definitely have that punk rock sensibility.

    Andy:
    Yeah. I’ll be 52 in a couple months. Ramones were my favorite band in 1986. I’ve been listening to Descendents, NOFX, and all the classics forever. That’s where I started.

    The show helps me discover what’s going on too. Between all my episodes, I’m at 230 episodes now. It’ll be three years in May that I’ve been doing it, and I’ve only missed maybe three weeks in those three years.

    This year was the first time I consciously decided to take a holiday break. I said, no content for two weeks. I’ll be back in two weeks. Other than that, it’s go, go.

    Scott:
    How do you maintain that schedule? How far in advance do you record? That’s one thing I’ve tried to do with this podcast. I’m getting my PhD, and during winter break I’ve done about 10 or 11 interviews. I’m doing mine biweekly because I want to be able to promote it, and I also have shows and records to promote, so I don’t want to overburden my social media.

    I had to frontload myself. Do you frontload, or are you just doing it on the dime every day?

    Andy:
    I’ve done both, and I’ve found good and bad with both. Where I’m at now is where I want to be. I’m about two episodes out.

    For a while, I was like you. There were months where I’d record every weekend. Sometimes I would record three episodes on Saturday, four episodes on Sunday, then do the same thing the next week. I had all these episodes, but I found that I couldn’t hang on to them. I would just package them and send them. There were some weeks where I’d release two or three episodes in a week or call one a special episode. I couldn’t just sit on all that content.

    Scott:
    You’re your own producer too, right? You’re not just the host. You also produce and manage all of that.

    Andy:
    Yeah. I actually think of myself as a producer first. That’s what I used to do professionally. I would produce other people. I was never the talent.

    I worked in corporate radio, and I did all the scheduling for the host, booked all his guests, lined up the whole show, and handed it to him so he could host the show. I was always in his ear, letting him know, hey, 30 seconds, we’ve got to be out. Wrap this up. But it was never me.

    Scott:
    So you made the jump from producer to host, but you still consider yourself producer first.

    Andy:
    Yeah. It kind of works in a good way because one of the hardest parts about producing is anticipating the host. You have to know the rhythm of the host. You don’t want to cut out too much and make it sound weird and choppy, but you also don’t want to leave in things that make them sound dumb.

    When I’m talking to a guest, I’m producing the show more than hosting it. I’m watching the levels as I record, and I’m thinking about the episode. If I go through a show and no alarms went off in my head, then it’s almost done. Anytime somebody says something that I think someone might get mad at, or there’s an awkward silence, I mentally mark it. That makes it easier. If there were no red flags, there’s not much to miss.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. I share a Google doc with Trev from Struggling Artist, who produces this for me. I’ll record it, and right off the bat I’ll put notes like, okay, you need to cut that part out. I announced this person was playing Camp Punksylvania before they had announced it, so we need to remove that. But I have to go back and relisten to give him full notes on anything problematic.

    Andy:
    When I produce the episode, I do listen to the whole thing. I don’t just say, this one was fine, package it, and send it. I’ll listen and make sure there are no technical hiccups, maybe tighten things up, take out a few ums and uhs.

    I say “like” as if I were a 14-year-old in the ’80s. Sometimes I’m listening to myself and I’m like, dude, what are you doing? Why are you talking like a teenager in the ’80s?

    Scott:
    Riverside does a decent job of taking that out for me. It gets rid of weird pauses and filler words. I don’t think I could listen to myself more than once. Even being in a band, once I’ve heard it, I don’t want to go back and listen to it over and over again. I don’t want to sit there while the guy is mixing and mastering it. I’m like, nope. My drums are good. I’ll hear it again at the end, say it’s good, and then never want to listen to it again.

    Andy:
    I’m the exact opposite. Once the episode is wrapped up, scheduled, and goes live, I’ll usually listen to it one more time. Mostly because I have a long commute in the morning. I have enough time to listen to an entire episode.

    I leave my house at five o’clock in the morning, so no rock and rollers are up. If there’s a mistake in the episode, I can pull it right there. I usually listen to the episode twice, at least, after I record.

    Scott:
    What inspired you to do this? I love the idea of unsigned. It goes with that punk rock ethos, the underground band, but you’re doing it for your local region. What made you decide to take that route and start it?

    Andy:
    About 21 years ago, I was working at WEQX, which is an independent radio station out of Manchester, Vermont. Their main area is Albany. I grew up in Vermont and live out here now, so I grew up with the station. I worked there 20-something years ago and hosted the local music show, which is still on now. Shout out to Pearson, who hosts it now. It’s called EQXposure.

    Back in 2003 or 2004, it was the cusp of the internet age. Hearing your song on the radio was a huge deal.

    Scott:
    I would have lost my shit if I ever heard one of my songs on the radio.

    Andy:
    Even now, I’ve randomly heard my songs on the radio and wanted to tell people. But back then, the thrill of hearing yourself on the radio was partly the legwork it took to get somebody to listen.

    Now it’s an MP3 and an email. Speaking as a radio dude, if I hosted a local music show and got all these emails, I would at least open and listen. It takes two seconds to open it and decide if I’m going to continue listening.

    Back then, people sent CDs. All you had to go on was this little piece of plastic. Sometimes it had the attitude of, I’ll get to it later. I felt like that was something I could control. I could bless these smaller bands with a higher status by basically doing nothing. Just saying, hey everybody, listen to this song that came to us. I think it’s pretty cool.

    People were listening. Once it got rolling, bands would come into the studio and do an MTV Unplugged-style performance. If they were a rock band, we tried to strip it down as much as we could. We would do a live song and an interview. That was basically what I’m doing now, but 17 or 18 years earlier.

    I always had the idea in my head. Then I quit drinking. When I first attempted not drinking, I started in bursts where I would say, for the next three months, I’m not drinking at all, and then I’ll reevaluate. The first time I did that, I had all this energy and felt great. I said, you know what? I’m going to start a fucking podcast.

    I had the idea, so I made a concept trailer. I came into my studio here, which is my garage, and recorded something saying, hey, it’s Andy from ShortWave RadioBand. I’m going to start this podcast featuring artists from the 518 of any genre. Let’s build a community.

    By the end of the day, I had three media outlets around the area reaching out to me wanting to put it on their shit. I made a choice, and after a year it didn’t work out. I left there, and now I’m mostly independent. I’m also doing my own thing with Metroland.

    Scott:
    You’re some sort of editor or multimedia person at Metroland, right?

    Andy:
    I’m the multimedia person. I handle socials, and I’m trying to get more podcasts up and running. That’s something we’re building now.

    Scott:
    I’ve got a copy of it right here. I picked it up at El Dorado the other day. I was looking through it, and I saw that you did a review of a hip-hop act, Shitty Wizard or something like that. It reminds me of growing up in DC with the DC City Paper, or Orlando with the Orlando Weekly. Yours could be the Albany city paper, but it’s Metroland. It’s pretty dope.

    Andy:
    That’s what we’re trying to do. Erin Harkes is editor-in-chief. She masterminded the whole thing. Her, TJ Foster of the band E.R.I.E., and myself started talking about this idea a little more than a year ago.

    Erin is just a fucking beast. She makes shit happen that literally had my head spinning. She’s a force of nature. I remember getting the call. We had been tossing ideas around, and then I wouldn’t hear from her for a couple weeks. It made me wonder if I was off the team or if it went stagnant. Then I got the call, and she said, sorry I haven’t talked to you in a while. I bought the name Metroland, and we’re relaunching Metroland.

    I was like, all right. At first, we were just going to do a website and maybe print sometime down the line. Then she said, we’re doing a monthly print edition. The fourth edition will be out next week. The last Friday of every month, we do a print edition, and then we have the website. It’s focused on local acts.

    Scott:
    It goes beyond music too. There’s art and poetry and theater. I almost did a dance when I saw Dan Savage in there. I was like, motherfucking Dan Savage is still doing that shit!

    Andy:
    Metroland used to exist back in the day. It went down around 2012, I think. My wife and I used to read it when it came out. It was so great.

    I remember telling Erin it would be great if somehow we could get Dan Savage back. She said, did I not tell you? Yeah, I got it back. She’s a force of nature for sure.

    I always wanted my show to be a conversation. I tell people when they come on, think of this as your episode. I don’t want it to feel like an interview in the stiff way. I want it to be a conversation.

    Scott:
    I have no questions prepared whatsoever. I’m just going with the flow.

    Andy:
    I never prepare. People ask how it sounds so natural and ask if I study all week on the guests. I don’t do shit. Sometimes I don’t know how many members are in the band or what the band sounds like until an hour or two before they get here. When I’m getting the room ready, I’ll put their music on and go, oh, okay.

    Scott:
    I did a little bit more than that, I admit.

    Andy:
    That’s why, if you watch the playback, you’ll see me going, well god damn. But I don’t ever prepare like that. What I do is keep the framework the same, almost like an improv template. I always have segment one, segment two, segment three: introduction, song, second part of the conversation, song, wrap-up, done. It’s usually about 35 minutes, but I’ve had 90-minute episodes and 17-minute episodes.

    Scott:
    I’ve been doing this a while, and I’m not exactly a shy person. I’ve taught middle school, been in bands for years, and I’m sociable enough. But every now and then you think, okay, that’s the extent of this conversation. It depends on the interaction and chemistry you have with the person. If it’s not coming across naturally, there’s no reason to force it.

    Andy:
    Exactly. I have no problem talking. I will talk, talk, talk, talk. I’m not a shy person, especially when it comes to talking.

    My first radio job was when I was 18 years old in 1991. I was on air at a smooth jazz station.

    Scott:
    Nice. Kenny G.

    Andy:
    For real. Instrumental stuff. I was an 18-year-old who looked like Anthony Kiedis from the Chili Peppers. I had really long hair, flannels, and Doc Martens. I was a stoner kid. But when I got on the air, I sounded so smooth. People thought they were talking to some older guy, and I was just a punk-ass kid.

    We would go to live events sometimes with the crew, and people would ask which one was Andy. I’d say, it’s me, and they’d be like, what? Our average listener was 40, and I was 18 or 19.

    Scott:
    That’s hilarious. I don’t know if you’ve ever had a guest host, but I tried that with a previous podcast. I find it hard because I’m so used to running the room from being a teacher for years. It’s hard for someone else to develop a touch and flow with me, and it’s hard for me to slow down and not jump to my next thought.

    Andy:
    I think it would be impossible for me to have a co-host. The one-on-one is my favorite. I even sometimes tell bands, if there are five or six members and not everyone is a big talker, they don’t all have to come. The fewer people who come, the better, because it gets confusing.

    The one-on-one is my favorite. If someone is a solo artist, I’m like, sweet. I love it. It makes it easy.

    Scott:
    Girth Control does your intro for the Weekend Spotlight. They mention your name, but your name is also mentioned in the regular intro. So you literally had two bands write songs for your podcast that talk about how awesome you are. Am I incorrect, or is that accurate?

    Andy:
    I actually have three. There’s a Halloween one in my Halloween episodes. The singer of my band and the guitar player from Gozer, who are a doom stoner metal band, collaborated and gifted me a version that sounds like a ripoff of “Monster Mash.” It calls me motherfucking Andy right out of the gate. So I have three theme songs about how awesome I am.

    Scott:
    Most people don’t walk around with even one theme song, even if they’re in WWE, and you have three motherfucking theme songs.

    Andy:
    The first one was Simple Machine. That’s Dave Taiyo and John Duden, who collaborate on that. They’re a studio band. They don’t play live because they have like 70 instruments in every song. They’re both brilliant musicians.

    Dave produced a bunch of my band’s stuff, and we’ve been friends for 15 years. That first one he gave me was a thank-you for something. One day he sent me this thing and said, yeah, I wrote you a jingle. I was like, what the fuck?

    Then my bandmate wrote me another one. Then Mikey from The Sugar Hold suggested Girth Control on one of my episodes. He said, you should ask Girth Control because they’re one of my favorite bands. They’re so great. On the episode I called them out, then messaged them separately and asked if they would do one. They said absolutely.

    I didn’t think about it for six weeks, and then all of a sudden I got an email saying, hey, here’s your new song.

    Scott:
    That’s so fucking great. You never know what someone is going to say. Even in high school, I was never afraid to ask the crazy question. That’s how I booked shows out of state as a 16 or 17 year old. You don’t know until you ask. What’s the worst they’re going to do? Say no or not respond? Whatever. Move on.

    Andy:
    I give that advice all the time. Just ask. People ask how you do it, and it’s simple. You just fucking ask.

    Scott:
    You mentioned Gozer, who are a great doom metal band. I think they were on one of your recent Weekend Spotlights. You also had something called Bad Music Club or Bad Club Media on there.

    Andy:
    Yeah. Bad Club Media does a podcast called Bad Music Club. I went up to Gusapalooza, which is an unsigned music festival in Ontario, Canada. There is a guy named Russ Robson, who is a musician out of Ontario, and he started this music festival in his backyard. It started with a band and a bonfire. Now it’s a two-stage, three-day festival with tons of vendors. It was badass.

    He was down in Mexico and came across my podcast. He sent me a message saying, hey, I do this thing called Gusapalooza. It’s all unsigned artists. “Unsigned” is a loose word. They’re not huge national acts, but they’re not all tiny either. He invited me up to set up a booth and get some interviews.

    It was a nine-hour drive, and I blasted it in one shot. I went up there by myself, got an Airbnb a couple miles away from the grounds, and set up. Not drinking means that when it’s 11 o’clock at night, I’m ready to go back. Maybe a year ago I would have gone until four in the morning, but not now.

    Scott:
    I get that. I do Camp Punksylvania as a vendor, and I never make it to the after-hours shows. I’m driving 30 minutes to my mom’s house, which is nearby in Pennsylvania, and I’m done. It’s 11 or almost midnight, and I’ve been there since 10 a.m. I’m almost 50, and after a 12-hour day, I’m done.

    Andy:
    I was there by myself, setting up and tearing down by myself. There were other vendors with booths, and there were these dudes from Bad Club Media. They do a podcast called Bad Music Club. It’s Jake and Mike and their producer Matt. I became super close buddies with them almost immediately. We ended up hanging out the whole weekend.

    They’re doing basically the same thing I’m doing, but in Ontario. Before the weekend was even over, we were saying we should collaborate on something. They do these quick band spotlights, so I said, what if I ape your style but send you my recommendation? They have animated wolfman and vampire characters, and then they made an animated thing for me. Now I send them a band from around here that’s on my radar, and they send me one of theirs.

    Scott:
    The one I listened to was called Alley Beers or something. I thought they were saying Wynona Ryder, and then I realized it was Shania Twain.

    Andy:
    Yeah, those guys are a fucking wreck. The song is called “Twain Wreck.” They’re more of a punk rock band. Bad Music Club are great dudes, and I’m going to go again this year. I should put you in touch with them and see if you want to go up.

    There were so many cool acts. I got to interview any band that was there. Russ organized the entire thing, and it was a legit festival. He basically said, if you want to go backstage, hang out backstage.

    Scott:
    For those not watching this, I love how you stick with that orange branding really well. You do a nice job maintaining your orange theme.

    Andy:
    I work in marketing, so it’s all about the branding. Rule number one is you have to be on brand. I don’t normally wear this hat. I literally threw this hat on two seconds before I hopped on with you.

    Is that a Descendents tattoo on your arm?

    Scott:
    Yeah. I have the Descendents “I Don’t Want to Grow Up” and Allroy for President. I used to be a social studies teacher, so you know.

    Andy:
    Descendents are my all-time favorite band.

    There’s this guy Matt Bacon, the social media guy. He does advice for bands professionally, and he was at Gusapalooza. One of his pieces of advice is consistency. He said, why do you think in every fucking video I have a cigar, even if it’s not lit? He has the cigar and long hair. That’s his look.

    Scott:
    I’ve worn this beanie on every podcast so far. It’s got my logo on it. I might switch to my baseball cap when it’s no longer cold, but it’ll still have the logo.

    Andy:
    I did go a little hard with my logo, the Breaking Bad ripoff. A lot of people don’t get that it’s Breaking Bad. I’m like, what do you mean, okay? It’s exactly like it, except no goatee.

    Scott:
    Up until this point, almost every shirt I’ve worn has been a band on my label. Today I’m wearing Cinnamon, which is an Albany hardcore band, which felt fitting for where you’re at. Maybe one day I’ll put out a live record by them, which constitutes being on my label because that’s all I do. A one-shot deal. I’m not a real record label with contracts and shit like that.

    You mentioned paloozas. You have an AndyPalooza, don’t you?

    Andy:
    I do. It’s May 17 at SingleCut in Clifton Park. SingleCut is a brewery. I believe they started in Brooklyn, and this is SingleCut North in Clifton Park. They’re a super cool brewery and very music-centric. They spin vinyl as their house music. They’ve been ramping up their live music area too.

    My band has played there a bunch of times, and they treat you like you’re a rock star. It’s crazy how good this place treats us.

    One year, my buddies in The Sugar Hold and Baton Killers, Upstate’s premier Killers tribute band, were putting together a show. It happened to be on my 50th birthday. They said they were turning it into a birthday party, and we called it AndyPalooza. It was fucking huge, way bigger than we expected.

    We did it again the next year, and this will be year three. Other than my band, every year has three completely different other bands. That’s a hard rule. No repeats.

    Scott:
    Is there a broad genre?

    Andy:
    No genre. This year it’s us, ShortWave RadioBand. We’re like an alternative punk ska ’90s-sounding rock band. Then we have AB the Autocrat, who is a DJ. He does all the music on the Weekend Spotlight. Two MCs are going to be with him, Mr. Pigs and Exquisite. They’ve both been featured on my show.

    Then Gozer is playing, so that’s stoner metal. Then Brother Junction, who are a funk rock band. It’s all meant to make you move. It’s party stuff, but multi-genre.

    Scott:
    I love the variety. I tend to think of myself as doing multi-genre, but it’s still within my punk-adjacent world. I might have pop punk, ska, beatdown hardcore, and skate punk all on the same show. I’ve gone to enough shows where it’s all beatdown hardcore or all ska that I still feel like I’m doing more of a variety than a lot of people.

    Andy:
    I love the multi-genre show. I’d love a show that starts with a solo acoustic folk artist, goes into a duo, then into hip hop, then builds from there.

    Scott:
    I’m going to push back on that. The solo acoustic folk artist doesn’t have to open the set. I have a couple folk bands on my roster, and they can play in the middle of the set. They can even end the set. It can be a nice, easygoing way to end the night.

    Sometimes the right person knows how to be acoustic and solo while still getting people to sing along and be engaged. It doesn’t have pounding drums or distortion, and it’s not rapid fire, but they know how to make it work. I encourage you to ponder that. It doesn’t always work, but it can.

    Andy:
    That’s a good point. I usually think of a bill in terms of velocity, building momentum and keeping it going up.

    I don’t usually put shows together. Most of the time I’m just a passive member of a band. I’m the bass player and occasional singer. But for AndyPalooza, I got to pick the lineup. We’re going to try to have vendors in there too. I think we’ll have a tattoo artist doing quick no-appointment tattoos.

    Scott:
    That’s super rad. I might be open to being a vendor if you’re looking for vendors. I have a show the following day in Kingston that I’m running, but that’s a Saturday, and I should be out of school by then.

    Andy:
    Let’s talk. The other thing about AndyPalooza is that I’m in my twilight years, so I’m not partying until midnight anymore no matter what. AndyPaloozas are usually wrapped up by nine o’clock at the latest.

    Scott:
    That’s like my Sunday shows. I was calling them Sunday matinees, but someone on Facebook called me out and said a matinee starts at two and my show starts at four. I’m so used to shows starting at 10 o’clock that I thought a show starting at four could be considered a matinee. But ChatGPT agreed with him, so fine. Anything after four is not a matinee.

    Andy:
    I’m agreeing with you though. AndyPalooza 3 starts at four, and I’m calling it a matinee. The whole draw of it is we’ll get you home.

    Scott:
    I tend to get annoyed when people call me out on social media. I come from community building and the punk world. If you’ve got something to say, send me a direct message. Most of the time, when that happens, I send a direct message to the person and say, in the future, I think it would be better for building our community if we had a conversation instead of you just leaving a snarky comment. That tears people down instead of building us up.

    It’s kind of how you and I even started speaking. I had posted something after Trump’s election saying, if anyone needs something out there, I believe in being there for people, not tearing people down. Even if some people don’t do things the way I would, that doesn’t mean they’re bad. They’re just doing things their own way.

    You may focus on music that isn’t always my style, but I respect the fact that those musicians are out there doing their shit, and I respect you for covering it.

    Andy:
    My thing is that the friendships transcend the music. I’ve made so many friends through this. Friends in super thrash death metal bands and the folkiest folk artists. I don’t think of them as my folk friends or my metal friends. They’re just my friends.

    I’ve been to folk shows and seen members of metal bands there supporting their friend in the folk band.

    Scott:
    One of my favorite punk and hardcore singers turned singer-songwriter is Tim Barry from Avail. He’ll tell you that when he plays shows now, most people who come out don’t even know what Avail is. Then they find out he was in that band and check it out and think it’s loud screamy shit. And he has Avail fans who think his solo stuff is too band-jamboree. He’s fine with that. He loves both.

    So if a band wanted to be featured on your show, do they email you, or are you constantly searching? How do you manage who your guests are?

    Andy:
    It definitely started with me reaching out a lot. I was constantly reaching out to people saying, hey, I’d love to have you on the show. Now it has gotten to the point where, for the most part, I don’t have to do much outreach. People reach out to me.

    The first year was really bad as far as me abusing myself and not respecting my own time. The second year was still bad, but getting better. This year is better. Now I record on Sundays, and my resolution for this year is that I’m recording one episode per Sunday. That’s it.

    If you want to be on the show, I have this Sunday, this Sunday, or this Sunday. But if someone takes that Sunday, that Sunday is off the books. Before, I would ask when people were available and bend over backwards to accommodate them. It didn’t even work for me.

    Scott:
    I get that. I’m refusing to do weekends if I can help it. I have my own life. I have two kids and a wife. I never know what’s happening on the weekends. I don’t want to tell my kid I can’t take them roller skating with their friend because I have a podcast at three o’clock.

    Andy:
    I don’t have kids, so that definitely helps. I’m just a fucking kid myself.

    A couple of members of my band have teenagers. Three of the five of us have teenagers. It’s funny because you think if you have a 17-year-old or 19-year-old, they’ve got to think you’re super cool for playing in a band, right?

    Scott:
    First off, my 16-year-old is away at Simon’s Rock at Bard College. It’s a pre-college program. She got a scholarship. She works too damn hard. I told her to relax and have fun.

    She came back from winter break, and since she’s still in high school, they come back from break sooner than the college kids because of state regulations. They take a junior term, where they basically take electives for the next two and a half weeks. She had choices like cooking, ceramic tiling, and punk rock history. You know which class she didn’t take? Punk rock history.

    She said, dad, I live with you. I’ve heard it. I’ve worked your shows. I put your records together. And she said, you’re a history teacher. I’ve already dealt with you telling people how many times they got things wrong. I don’t need you telling me to tell them that Talking Heads aren’t a punk band just because they played CBGB with the Ramones.

    Andy:
    I mean, CBGB alone stands for country, bluegrass, and blues.

    Scott:
    Exactly.

    Andy:
    There was this club called Ungano’s in New York City back in the punk rock heyday. The guy who owned it moved to my small town, and I grew up with his kids. I had no idea until two years ago.

    I was listening to No Dogs in Space, Marcus Parks from Last Podcast on the Left. It’s mostly punk rock stuff and deep dives. They were talking about this club, Ungano’s, and I thought, I went to school with some Unganos. I looked it up, and it was the same family. That dude’s dad owned this punk rock club in New York, and I had no idea.

    Scott:
    I keep thinking one day my kids will be impressed by the record label, the band, or anything I do. Maybe when they’re older. At least I’ll leave something behind for them to remember me by.

    Do you monetize at all? Do you do Patreon, subscribers, or sponsors?

    Andy:
    I have a Buy Me a Coffee thing. A “coffee” is five bucks, and people can send one, two, three, four, or five. To be honest, I’ve had that up for two years and maybe had 15 coffees bought for me. Not a single one in the last year.

    So no, I don’t monetize. I was paying subscription fees up until very recently. I got that taken care of, so I don’t pay to do the show anymore, but I definitely don’t get paid.

    Scott:
    Right now, I’m paying because I have a producer and I’m paying for Riverside. To be fair to me, my record label is in the title, and I talk about it here and there, so I look at it as long-form advertising. Not to be too social capitalistic about it, but I’m making a social network and meeting people who could help me expand the network for myself and my artists in the future.

    There is a benefit to me, despite the cost, beyond just talking to rad people.

    Andy:
    Me too, for sure. The way my show is set up, and it’s not an accident, it grows every week. Sometimes it’s slow, but it grows every week because every week I have a band or artist on the show. When the episode is done and available, they want their fans, friends, family, and circle to hear their story and hear their songs on a podcast that can be heard anywhere in the world.

    Every episode almost has its own street team.

    Scott:
    That makes sense. Are you able to track through your analytics who sticks through every episode? I can tell you I have about a half dozen people going back four years who have bought every record I’ve ever put out. Every record. That’s insane because I’ve done 35 in the last four years.

    Andy:
    I have a basic subscription on my distribution thing, so I don’t see actual people. I just see demographics like age and location. I know one city has a certain number of listens every week, so I can kind of tell it’s probably the same couple people, but I don’t know who.

    Scott:
    When I was in a band in Florida, I managed the analytics for the band. I could check Spotify and see how many listeners we had each month, and how many were continual listeners. It broke it down. The last band I was in, I was in charge of nothing. I was the drummer. I showed up, hit shit, and left. I didn’t book shows. I didn’t do promotion. I didn’t do merchandise. I just came in and did my job.

    Andy:
    I’m the point guy in my band. It’s a double-edged sword because a lot of people say I’m the frontman, and I’m like, dude, I play bass. I sing a couple songs, but not enough to be the frontman. Lonnie, our lead guitarist, sings the lion’s share of songs. Four of the five members sing songs.

    Scott:
    You’re the guy people talk to. People often assume that if you’re the person they communicate with, you must be the front person. I’ve booked so many shows over 30 years and done the records, and I often know one person in a band. I’ll say, they’re great guys, but honestly, I only really know one person. The other people in the band I barely speak to because one person handles everything.

    What drives me crazy is when a band shares the social media login and everyone responds, so you never know which person you’re speaking to.

    Andy:
    Right. We definitely have a point person. I talk to the promoter or the person at the venue and then bring questions to the band. I’ve seen it happen too, where you don’t even know who you’re talking to. Someone responds in the group message, and then later someone else says, that wasn’t me.

    Scott:
    You’ve got to have one person on point. Even if the other people are reading it, they’ve got to mark it unread or save it or something.

    Andy:
    I’m the point person, but definitely not the frontman when it comes to performance. For most of the songs, I’m just playing bass and singing some backup. That’s how I like it. The other people in the band are super talented, and I want the focus to be on that.

    Scott:
    Absolutely. Well, I don’t want to take up too much more of your time. I really enjoyed hearing about how you started the podcast, how you do it, and just talking to you more. I could tell from the couple of communications we had on social media that you’re an upstanding dude, and I’m glad our face-to-face continues to uphold that.

    I really appreciate you giving me the time to ask questions and hear about all the dope shit you’re doing.

    Andy:
    Thanks, man. I appreciate being asked to come on. It’s still surprising anytime someone says, I want you to come on and talk. I’m like, me? All right.

    Scott:
    Yes, absolutely you.

    We’re going to close out with a song. I always have the guest pick a song. Maybe you want to pick one of your songs from your band, send me the MP3 and an image, and we’ll close it out with that.

    Andy:
    When is this going to air?

    Scott:
    Not for a couple months.

    Andy:
    Then yeah. We just recorded an album. We wrapped up recording last weekend. It’s in the mixing and mastering stage, and we have a single that we’re hoping to put out in February. It’ll definitely be out by then. The song is called “Crash Site.”

    Scott:
    Go ahead and send me that when it’s ready. You’re probably episode somewhere between 10 and 12, so it’ll be a hot minute.

    Stick around after we say goodbye and listen to “Crash Site” from ShortWave RadioBand, which I knew, but you didn’t come on here to talk about your band because we don’t talk about bands on this podcast.

    Thank you everyone at home for listening, watching, whatever it is. Thank you for following. Thank you for sharing. Thank you again, Andy. Much love and PMA around the world.

  • Episode 8: Holly Berchielli of Outsider Magazine

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY punk label specializing in live albums on vinyl for hardcore, punk, and metal bands. I've got 30 years of experience playing drums in hardcore bands in DC, New York, and Florida, and I've had the privilege of working with a lot of amazing talent.

    The person I’m most stoked about today is Holly Berchielli, founder of Outsider Magazine, a free newspaper-style zine that has been documenting the Hudson Valley's vibrant punk and hardcore scene since 2000. Created while Holly was in high school, this project evolved into an essential chronicle of the region's alternative culture, covering not just music, but also skateboarding, photography, and other elements of the punk community.

    After a five-year break, Holly and her team made a triumphant return in 2023 with issue 34, marking the occasion with a memorable show at Poughkeepsie's now-closed venue, The Chance. The event featured Hudson Valley favorites Trouble Bound alongside RBNX, Barnaby, and Leave It Behind, who I had just recently joined as their drummer.

    Beyond publishing, Holly continues to nurture the local scene by organizing monthly all-ages shows on Friday nights in New Windsor, making her a cornerstone of the Hudson Valley hardcore punk community.

    Holly:
    Hey, thanks Scott. Very concise.

    Scott:
    I try. It’s the teacher in me. Years and years of being a middle school teacher taught me how to say things quickly because kids lose attention fast.

    Holly:
    I’m sure that gave you a lot of public speaking practice.

    Scott:
    My kid says that. I told her I was a communications major when I got my associate’s degree, and she said, oh, that’s the major for people who aren’t smart. I was like, is it? Or is it the major for someone who graduated with a 4.0 and is now getting a PhD with a full scholarship and stipend?

    I met you at that Chance show, right?

    Holly:
    Yeah, that is where we met.

    Scott:
    I didn’t have any real knowledge of Poughkeepsie history or the Hudson Valley scene. I think the only band I knew from the area was Shai Hulud, and even then I learned about them from the old singer of my band in Florida, who grew up in Jersey. When I told him I was moving to Poughkeepsie, he said I needed to check out Shai Hulud. They’re not around anymore, but you’re going to love them.

    So I had no knowledge. I was lucky to be in Leave It Behind and play that show, meet you, and then understand the history behind you. I’ve always been impressed by you and everything you’ve done over this time.

    I’d like to start at the beginning. Holly, how the fuck did you go from where you were 24 years ago to where you are now? Give me the smorgasbord. Lay it out on the table.

    Holly:
    I started the zine in high school. I had just seen zines around after getting into the music scene, and I wanted to make one. I thought it would be fun. The first issue was really just nonsense my friends and I put together. There wasn’t even any music in the first issue. It was just printed at home and stapled together.

    Then I got a job at a newspaper called The Sentinel in New Windsor, right around the corner from where we host our shows now.

    Scott:
    Is that your hometown area?

    Holly:
    I'm from Newburgh, so yeah. New Windsor is the neighboring town, and they kind of flow into each other.

    I kept plugging away. The more I went to shows, the more I decided I was going to interview bands and get involved in that.

    Then in 2004, everything kind of shut down. The clubs and halls we all went to for shows were not doing much. Even the VFW in Newburgh, which isn’t there anymore, wasn’t doing a lot. There would be shows, but there wasn’t a lot going on, and there was certainly nowhere that really young bands just starting out were going to be able to play.

    So I decided I was going to start booking shows. I didn’t really have any business doing that. I wasn’t in a band. I didn’t own any equipment. I didn’t really know what I was doing. But I knew a lot of bands. I went around and found places that I thought would be good for shows, and everybody told me no.

    Then somebody I knew said, well, I go to this church, and it has an extra building outside. They always wanted to use it for community stuff. I’ll ask them if you can have shows there.

    So he did, and then I had to sit at a big meeting at this long table with all these church people and tell them what I wanted to do. Everyone was quiet, then they asked me questions. They wanted to know if I was going to book Christian bands. I said, no, that’s not what I’m doing. I just want to do this as community. There needs to be a place for people to go that is not a bar. There needs to be a place where it doesn’t matter how old you are, young you are, you can go and watch bands play.

    This woman at the end of the table, who hadn’t said anything the whole time, said, you’re not booking Christian bands here. You’re just going to book the bands you want to book, and you’re going to have everybody here, and we’re going to make it work.

    I was blown away that she was that trusting. We had shows at St. Thomas Parish Hall in New Windsor for about a year and a half. Then they got tired of us.

    Scott:
    I can see that happening. Did you have to find your own PA too?

    Holly:
    Yes. It was ridiculous at first. For the first show, I got a friend to bring his PA and run sound. After that, I was on my own. I got a big speaker and somehow plugged a microphone into it. Then I got some mic stands.

    Eventually it evolved into this whole thing where people would say, I have a lighting rig. I’ll bring the lighting rig. I have a bubble machine. I have a fog machine. The fog machine was a bad idea because it was not big enough in there for a fog machine. But the bubble machine was awesome. It didn’t matter if you were a New York hardcore band, a punk band, or a noise band. There were bubbles.

    Scott:
    That’s awesome. Your shows now are hyper professional. It’s at a VFW hall. You have professional sound people there. You have videographers at almost every show. Your monthly shows feel like events. I love that they’re all ages, and I love that you bring people from outside the Hudson Valley too. I love what you do there.

    Holly:
    Thank you. I try really hard to make sure there is a good mix of bands from outside the area, bands from here, and different genres. Some shows have a real theme sound-wise because it just works out that way, or because the bands are friends and want to play together. That’s always the best atmosphere, when everybody’s friends and hyped to play. I feel like that permeates into the crowd too. You feel that camaraderie.

    The reason we have everything we have now is because all the people who work on the shows have been involved in some way, sometimes in a big way, this whole time.

    Greg, who runs Kingston TV and does our sound, videography, and lighting, has known me since high school. He’s been part of the shows since the beginning, on and off. We’ve had times when we weren’t involved in each other’s projects, but he’s been around.

    Kazooie Louie, Sean, our DJ, spins vinyl between bands and before and after the show. He’s been involved the whole time too. He was at our very first show, and he’s still there now.

    Jen, our bartender, has been going to Outsider shows since the beginning.

    Scott:
    I love Jen. And your parents work the door too. They’re so great. They noticed when I missed a couple shows. I try to come out, but being married with two kids, sometimes you just can’t get to everything. Then when I came back, they were like, you’re back. Thank you for noticing.

    Holly:
    My parents are celebrities in their own right. People love them. They’ll notice if someone has been to every show. People start talking to them, and then they get shout-outs.

    Scott:
    That’s great because you’re creating community.

    Holly:
    That was what I set out to do in the first place, so I’m glad it’s working. We’ve had shows in comic book shops, restaurants, coffee shops, wherever we could.

    Scott:
    I used to do shows at a coffee shop in Centerville, Virginia. I also did shows at this teen center where the audience had to be 18 and under. The bands could be over 18, but no one in the audience could be over 18. We would pack it full of teenagers. I’d bring bands down from Boston on tour to play this Northern Virginia community center because I could tell them there would be 200 kids there with nothing to do but spend their money. They’d buy merch and it would be amazing.

    People would beg me to do more shows, but I could only do one every four months or so because they didn’t want me there that often. Like your church, they were allowing it here and there, but eventually they’d say, that’s enough.

    That’s the way all these DIY venues start. There was this place in Winchester, Virginia, called Big Joe’s or something. They were a bar, but they would do all-ages shows and serve no alcohol. Of course, the kids would go outside and skateboard between bands. A neighbor complained about the skateboarding. One of the kids who went there had a mom who worked at the local paper, so they brought out the town mayor or councilperson and interviewed me as the promoter.

    They asked about moshing and whether kids got hurt. I said, they mosh, but if you fall down, five people pick you up. Think of that versus football, where if you fall down, five people jump on top of you. It’s all out of fun. Back then, there wasn’t as much crowd killing going on, so I didn’t have to worry about that.

    Holly:
    I can’t stand that kind of stuff.

    Scott:
    Crowd killing? I appreciate the art form of it. It just takes a huge space away from everyone else enjoying things. At your shows, you have such a big space that I can still enjoy the show. But at a place like Tubby’s, I’ve had it happen where I’m as far back as I can be and someone still kicks the beer out of my hand.

    Holly:
    Yeah, in small places, that’s not the spot for it.

    Scott:
    I’m not anti-pitting. Part of me says everything should be open to everyone and everyone should feel comfortable and safe. Maybe I lived in DC too long with Fugazi saying no pitting at all.

    Holly:
    Especially in an all-ages show.

    Scott:
    Exactly. I want my daughters to be able to walk up to the stage and feel like they’re not going to get their face kicked in every time. Sometimes, sure. A little alluring danger. But not every time.

    So I called Outsider a newspaper because I have never seen a free zine like yours outside of something like The Onion 20 years ago. Most zines are folded-over paper or penciled or maybe almost magazine-like, and you get them at a record store. But yours has that old-school newspaper format to it. Lead me into how it evolved from your printed-at-home stapled thing to this really beautiful newspaper style that touches this old history teacher’s soul.

    Holly:
    Actually, I have them all right here. I have a giant binder that has every single issue in it. This is my very first issue. Clip art on the front.

    Since I worked at that newspaper, for my second issue it was in a magazine format. It had a little glossy cardstock cover, folded and stapled, with paper on the inside.

    Then in 2012, around issue 23, the magazine had been growing pretty steadily. I got some new writers. We started interviewing bigger bands, printing more copies, and distributing farther. The zine was growing, and I would run out of copies and need a second pressing. I would order more. I no longer worked at the newspaper, but I would go help print it and put it together. They gave me good pricing, but it was starting to get ridiculous.

    One day they told me, Holly, you’re not going to have a magazine format anymore. You’re going to be in newsprint because we can’t keep up with this. You always need more copies.

    If you’ve never worked in the printing industry, when you deal with the machines that collate and staple magazines, you hate them. They’re horrible. The staple is a big spool of wire, and you need tiny hands to get in there. Anyone with big hands is done. I had to re-spool the whole thing eight times every time we printed.

    They finally had enough of me and said, okay, you’re going to be in newsprint. You can have three times as many copies for the same price. That’s your new world now.

    I was like, this sucks. I don’t want to do this. Then I got the first issue, and it was awful. It looked terrible. When I switched to newsprint, I didn’t account for resolution, print quality, or how things would get darker. Everything looked awful.

    Scott:
    I get that. I was a school editor for my school paper in high school. I remember having to measure stuff in picas. So I have an understanding to a point. I knew what my high school newspaper looked like in 1995. Computer software was not what it is now.

    Holly:
    By 2012 we had much better software, but nothing like we have now unless you had a lot of money and time to learn. I had to relearn everything and accept that I had to do everything digitally instead of this hybrid thing I wanted to do.

    That’s where we went to newsprint, and it was the best thing to do.

    Scott:
    You made something that fit who you were and speaks to who you are. Listening to this conversation, you didn’t have a place to play, so you went and found one. The format had to change, so you changed it, but you made it your own. You taught yourself. You embody the idea that the punk rock and hardcore community is important enough that you’re going to make it happen.

    You don’t play in bands, right?

    Holly:
    I don’t. I’m not a musician.

    Scott:
    That’s the whole point of this podcast. You are as valuable as any musician in the scene, if not more so, because you help bind that fabric together. You’re creating a hub, both physically and in print, for people to gather and learn about each other. And you make it free.

    You mentioned writers. Are they all volunteers?

    Holly:
    Everyone is volunteer.

    Scott:
    That is amazing. I sometimes struggle to find people to volunteer to work the door for a show, and I’ll even pay them, give them beer, and give them a record. You’re asking people to do tireless hours of work on a product, and not everyone will know exactly what part they played because it’s behind the scenes. And they say yes.

    The writing is good, it’s beautifully laid out, and you do advertising. How much does advertising help cover costs?

    Holly:
    I sell as much as I need to print it, and that’s about it. Any surplus goes to distribution. I mail them out. There are people in different parts of the area who help distribute. In Effect Hardcore does a massive amount of distribution for us on Long Island, and we work together really well.

    Scott:
    You’re doing a radio show with In Effect Hardcore now, aren’t you? Every Wednesday?

    Holly:
    Yeah, on WXAX. We got approached by WXAX. They asked us if we could do a punk and hardcore show because they mostly focus on metal. They play all kinds of metal, which is cool, but they wanted something with variety outside of that. That’s what I already do, so it made sense.

    A lot of people have asked me since I started this up again if I was going to do a podcast. I don’t have time to do a podcast. It would make sense, but I don’t have time. The radio show I can do. I can have an episode where I just play a playlist of songs, or I can interview people, or I can talk.

    I’ve done fun stuff where if there’s an upcoming show I want to promote, I’ll say something about each band, play songs by those bands, and talk about the show. It has been a really cool tool for promoting and helping people get to know the bands we’re hosting.

    That’s something a lot of promoters miss, and it’s no fault of their own. You need the vehicle to do that besides just social media. You need to introduce bands to people and say, hey, this is who’s coming out and why you should come see them.

    Scott:
    It’s difficult to do. I go up and down the Hudson Valley, as far north as Troy and as far south as Middletown and New Windsor. But you have to go to a lot of shows to see things. Is your radio show internet radio or old-school radio?

    Holly:
    It’s internet radio. It is live, but I’m not live in the studio. I pre-record everything. It’s only on while it’s on. It’s not archived. You can’t go back.

    Scott:
    I actually like that. It makes it feel like, hey, everyone sit down and listen to this. What day and time is it?

    Holly:
    Wednesdays. It airs 10 a.m. to noon, and again 10 p.m. to midnight.

    Scott:
    That’s perfect for me. I can listen from 10 a.m. to noon while I’m working.

    Holly:
    It’s nice that it airs in the morning and at night. You’ve got to set up a tape recorder and record it old school.

    Scott:
    So you record it about a week in advance?

    Holly:
    Pretty much. Middle of the week or weekend, and then it airs on Wednesday.

    Scott:
    That’s like what I’m doing here. You’re my seventh or eighth interview I’ve done this winter break, but I haven’t dropped my first episode yet. My goal is to get 12 done before I go back to school in two weeks. That way when I go back, I don’t have to worry about recording them for the next three months.

    Holly:
    Banking your content is what you’ve got to do. You have to be consistent. No matter what your project is, preparation is the key.

    Scott:
    Your zine comes out twice a year, right?

    Holly:
    Yeah, twice a year. Sometimes it’s five months in between. Sometimes it’s six or seven, but it’s always twice a year.

    Scott:
    Do you have a creative team that gets together and decides what to cover? You don’t just cover the Hudson Valley. You cover outside the Hudson Valley and even outside New York. How does the planning process work for such a broad-based zine?

    Holly:
    The issue before usually starts to lay seeds for the issue after it. I’ll see a band play and want to interview them or feature them. An album or movie will come out that really grabs me, and I’ll want to follow that. That usually inspires something.

    I do have a core group of people who help me. Damien Masterson is a big help with content. He has great ideas that are not exactly in the same realm as my tastes. There’s overlap, but we live in different hemispheres of the same world. That’s good because otherwise I’m just focusing on what’s buzzing around in my head, and I’ll miss things.

    Then I have Johnny Noke. He brings the musician’s view into the magazine. He’s in Trouble Bound and is the main songwriter for that band. When he experiences music, he sees it in a different way. His memories and the way songs inspire his music give his writing a different viewpoint from mine.

    He does the “Have You Heard” article, where he talks about different bands that maybe haven’t gotten their due, or didn’t last long but made a big impression on him. He wants everyone to know about them. He was always talking about these bands or pulling out records I’d never heard of and saying, this is awesome, you’ve got to hear this. One day I said, you’ve got to write about this. People need to hear about this.

    Scott:
    There are so many great bands that nobody has ever heard of, especially if they never left their region. I’ve always had this idea for a band called Sounds of Basements Past. It would be a cover band, but we would only cover songs by bands that never left their hometowns.

    When I was in Florida, everyone was from different parts of the country, and we all had different local bands we grew up with. We would cover those local bands. Great songs that never got heard by anyone else.

    Even Trouble Bound. I didn’t know who they were until I moved up here. Phenomenal band, but I had no idea. I don’t think they ever came down to DC.

    Holly:
    I don’t think they did, but I could be wrong. Johnny has a book with every single show Trouble Bound has ever played, where they played, and who they played with. It’s so cool to look at.

    Creatively, in a visual sense, my best friend Ashley does our covers. She has been doing them since we returned.

    Scott:
    They’re beautiful collage-style covers.

    Holly:
    They are paper collages. She cuts and pastes, then uses computer graphics for certain layout things or effects, but not too much. Almost everything she does for the covers and the little headers above articles are actual collages by hand with a knife and glue.

    The first cover she did for issue 34, she mailed it to me. It was this beautiful piece of artwork. She made it life-size, and I didn’t know what I was going to do about scanning it. It wouldn’t fit on a regular scanner, and you couldn’t put it through a feeding scanner because it would destroy it.

    In a last-ditch effort, I laid it on the floor and used my iPhone. It took the most perfect photo, and that is what you see on the cover of the magazine. I was like, all right Holly, just embrace technology. This is stupid. I had all that stress for nothing.

    She and I will talk about the direction we want to go, and then we try to keep that theme integrated into the rest of the issue. She’ll make little collage pieces that I can scatter through the issue, and those tie into the cover. It’s a lot of fun. I do all the layout.

    Scott:
    Was she doing this before your hiatus?

    Holly:
    No. She used to come to shows. We were friendly, but we didn’t know each other extremely well. She moved to Pennsylvania, where she’s based, and we hadn’t seen each other in a long time.

    I did a big reunion show in 2018, and she made this collage as a tribute to it. It was made out of my old magazines and flyers. It was so cool, and of course I still have it. When I started thinking about coming back to print, I couldn’t get the idea of her artwork out of my head. I asked if she wanted to be part of it. Through working together over the last couple years, we’ve become best friends.

    She also does a lot of the flyers for our shows. That’s a lot of collage work too.

    Scott:
    Flyers are where I always struggle. Sometimes I make my own, and they’re fine. They’re adequate. Sometimes Ralph from Leave It Behind makes amazing flyers, but he works full time and sells his own art. Asking him for a friends-and-family discount to make art for a show is something he does, but if I have two shows in a month, it’s hard to ask.

    I have to figure out who else can help, but I also don’t want to spend too much because I’m already paying bands and printing flyers. It’s a labor of love, and I don’t mind losing a little money. I look at it as advertising for my label and building community.

    For me, I think, if I went to New York City to see a show, how much would it cost me to get there, hang out, maybe even spend the night because I drove three hours? I take that cost and say that’s what I can afford to put into a show in my area that I don’t have to drive to.

    Holly:
    I like that reasoning. That’s good.

    Scott:
    The first spring we were here, I took my whole family to Generation Records in Greenwich Village to see my friend Flora’s band, Maafa, play a free show. We took the train from Poughkeepsie. Four round-trip tickets were a healthy chunk of money. Then the kids were hungry, so we went to a hibachi place. Then they wanted records. Then after the show, they wanted hot dogs or pizza.

    I think I spent $300 or $400 on this free show.

    Holly:
    When in New York.

    Scott:
    Exactly. If I’d gone by myself, a whole different story.

    Holly:
    Everything I’ve ever done with Outsider has been with nothing. Outsider doesn’t exist. That’s what I always tell people when they ask how I do this. It doesn’t exist. It’s just me with my laptop, talking to my friends. There is no budget. There’s no money. There’s nothing. We come together and make stuff happen. I pay the bands. They’re the only ones who get paid.

    Scott:
    You’re manifesting it. You and your friends manifest this thing every six months. You do some spells and make it happen.

    Do you still print at the same place you used to work?

    Holly:
    They went out of business right before I came back. I was a little panicked. Then I remembered that once, when their press went down, they sent my issue to be printed in Wappingers. I reached out to the guys who used to print it, and they told me the name of the place. They said, that’s where you’re going. They’re the best.

    So that’s where I’ve been. I’ve only ever had two printers.

    Scott:
    I get that. I’ve used at least five or six different pressing plants. Some I really loved, but they went out of business. Others were good but struggled with communication. Others had cost issues. I like to stay with one person, build a relationship, and have it go that way. I don’t want to shop around just to save $100.

    Holly:
    For sure. With this kind of stuff, we don’t have a million options. I think there are other options, but I don’t think there is a better option. My zine looks so good. The printing looks so good. I was super nervous the first time, but now I trust them.

    Scott:
    It looks super professional. It reminds me of walking around DC in 2002 and picking up a free copy of The Onion. High-quality, free, and a newspaper format. You’re like that, except not The Onion.

    Holly:
    Most of what we print is serious. We mean it.

    Scott:
    I was going to say not funny, but you are funny. There’s lots of humor in there too.

    Holly:
    Lots of humor and lots of nostalgia. I try to toe that line between appreciating the past and being stuck in it. I don’t want to be stuck. If you get stuck, you start harping on the fact that things aren’t the way they used to be, and you’re never going to grow or enjoy new things with that mindset.

    Scott:
    When I moved from DC to Florida, I must have told people I was from DC so often that everyone started calling me Scott from DC. Since moving here, I’ve tried not to be as harpy about it. It’s in my logo and everything, but I have to live where I am and appreciate the scene I’m in now. I can’t just keep going, back in DC, yada yada yada.

    Holly:
    You get to keep it because it’s a big part of why you are who you are. You’re bringing some of that here, and that gives what you do flavor. But eventually you have to acclimate.

    Scott:
    I’m two years in the Hudson Valley as of two days ago. I moved here January 1, 2023. I’m still getting a handle on the scene. There are still things I don’t know. Especially scene politics. I’m almost 50 years old. I go out, have a good time, and if you’re nice to me, I’m nice to you back. I don’t want to know the tribal boundaries.

    Holly:
    You don’t need to know.

    This area musically has such a long history, and it goes in so many directions. Everybody hears about Hudson Valley hardcore, and it is probably the deepest, strongest section with the most bands. But hardcore is so many things. It’s not one sound. Hardcore is punk, hardcore is metal now, and everything in between.

    We’ve got some really great punk bands. We have bands that don’t fit into any of that stuff, and they’re great. We have surf bands. We have some really amazing surf bands. And we have that death metal scene that is undeniably great. It all works together. I think that’s the detail people miss.

    Scott:
    That’s what I like too. I have my first Sunday matinee happening at Snapper Magee’s in a week and a half. I have a hardcore punk band, a ska band or pop punk with horns, an almost alt-punk band, and Lake Lanier, who are brutal New York hardcore. I’m throwing it together and seeing what happens.

    I don’t inherently want to hear a whole bill of Ramones-core or a whole bill of beatdown hardcore. I like both types of music, but I don’t want five bands in a row of the same thing.

    Holly:
    That’s my favorite thing to do. I completely agree. I don’t think it does the bands any justice to have everyone sound the same. Sometimes that’s the case, but if everything is the same kind of sound, by the third band you’re just kind of wondering what’s happening.

    Scott:
    As fans and musicians, we can hear the distinctions. I can see five heavy hardcore bands in a row and know how they are different. But to an untrained person, if it’s their first show, it’s like, this is a lot of heavy stuff.

    Or Trouble Bound. There aren’t a lot of bands that sound like Trouble Bound. They are the kind of hardcore punk I love the best. I liked hardcore when not all punk was hardcore, but no hardcore was inherently metal. The era where Circle Jerks were a hardcore band.

    Holly:
    Yes. Sweet spot. I agree 100%.

    Scott:
    RBNX doesn’t fit into anything. I don’t even know what RBNX is. I hear punk, metal, a little bit of ska and reggae for a couple measures here and there. But I love it.

    Holly:
    They just do their thing.

    Scott:
    I love a good hard rock band, but I also love that classic punk rock sound. That’s my jam.

    Holly:
    Me too. And then there are bands like General Grievance coming up now. Everybody in that band has been involved in Outsider since almost the beginning. The singer, John McGrath, has been starting to help me with Outsider shows and booking.

    The show tomorrow at Quinn’s Pins with Trouble Bound, General Grievance, Life Abuse, and God’s Favorite is a mixed bill too.

    Scott:
    I should be there. It has been on my calendar. I want to be there. I want to get that Trouble Bound record. I want to see General Grievance again. I saw them at Box Fest, and they’re playing my show at Snapper Magee’s. I want to flyer and hang out. It is everything in my soul to be there.

    Holly:
    I’ll check on you.

    Scott:
    Please do, because if I’m not there, I’ll be frustrated. That happened with the show you had where Pickaxe played. I asked you to put them on the bill because I’m putting out their record, and then there was a snowstorm coming from Massachusetts when I was driving my kid home from school. It took three hours, and I just couldn’t make it.

    Holly:
    If you’re not going to enjoy yourself, and you have to drive home after that, I get it. That’s your own safety too.

    Scott:
    Speaking of drives, I live just north of Kingston. I find myself much more likely to drive south to your shows in New Windsor, Quinn’s Pins in Middletown, or Reason and Ruckus in Poughkeepsie. All of them take me 45 minutes to a little over an hour. But there are great shows in Albany and Troy, and for some reason driving north feels harder. I go to school in Albany, so it’s not like I don’t go there.

    Maybe that’s it. I don’t want to drive home, pick up my kids, make dinner, and then turn around and drive all the way back.

    Holly:
    That could be it.

    Scott:
    You were saying you think we’re going to start seeing more bands with that roots of hardcore sound?

    Holly:
    Yeah, more of the actual roots of hardcore. That punk rock, heavy punk rock thing.

    Scott:
    And I say this with all respect for the hardcore bands. Top Rank Tattoo was doing amazing hardcore matinees at Tubby’s. I went to almost every one. They were great. I think the only one I missed was when Trouble Bound played with School Drugs, of course. I tend to go to at least one show a week. My daughter calls me when she’s away at school and says, what show are you at?

    Holly:
    I feel like I’m at least at one show a week too. Every once in a while you get that week where there’s no show, and you’re like, what am I doing with myself right now? I’m home? With my feet up?

    Scott:
    Then sometimes there are four shows in one night. The week after Christmas, RBNX and Lousekateers were at Green Growler. There was a hardcore show at Reason and Ruckus. There was a metal show at Keegan Ales in Kingston. There was a show at Quinn’s Pins with Modern Natives. Four shows I wanted to go to in one night after not going to a show in two weeks.

    I chose the closest show because it was local and I had never seen any of the bands. I wanted a fresh new experience.

    Holly:
    I like that too. I would rather book a show where three of the five bands have never played the area before. I like seeing people discover a new band and then go up and talk to them after the show, buy stuff from the merch table, and hang out.

    Scott:
    That’s what I’m trying to do. I have a local opener and local closer at the Snapper shows, and everyone else is from Connecticut, Rome, New York, or New York City. I want that newness. I want bands that haven’t played here and haven’t been seen here.

    Holly:
    I’ve hosted a lot of reunions too. I like reunion shows because a band that hasn’t played in a long time gets back together, or people who were in popular bands back in the day start a new band and come back into the scene in this decade. That’s good too. That is just as valuable as having younger bands play. Just because you’re older doesn’t mean you can’t participate or play music again or enjoy yourself. There’s no age limit on this.

    Scott:
    That’s where I’ve gotten lucky. My February show has a band called Nightmares for a Week. One member was in Black Lincoln. They’ve been around for a while, but they haven’t played a show in five years. Mine will be their first show in five years.

    Then Trouble Bound is playing my March show with Tiger Piss. Tiger Piss hasn’t played a show in over a decade.

    Holly:
    I booked them at the warehouse probably in 2012, so that’s still over a decade.

    Scott:
    That’s still crazy. I’m so excited.

    I love that your shows are on Fridays and mine are on Sundays, so they don’t interfere. I would never want to work against someone who has a regular thing. Although you and I could work together sometime. We could do a Friday and Sunday and find a place to play on Saturday. An Outsider and DCxPC tour through the Hudson Valley.

    Holly:
    That would be cool. We could work on something like that. I chose Fridays partly because they work for me personally. I also noticed before I started booking again that most shows were happening on the weekend, and very little was happening on Friday nights, at least regularly. My venue is also most often available on Friday nights.

    When you have to push too hard against something to make it work, you’re going to keep having problems. You have to find the thing that is right for you and go with that.

    Scott:
    My Snapper show is five minutes from my home. Shows start at 4, and they’ll be over by 9 or 9:30. Don’t tell me you can’t come out on a Sunday night when the show is over at 9. Come at 4, see the first band at 5, hang until 7, then go home if you need to go to bed. At least come have fun.

    Holly:
    Come have fun. There’s this thing called fun. Have it.

    Scott:
    People don’t have fun enough. When I was a teacher, I’d have band practice until one in the morning, then get up at 5:30 and teach middle school. I’d do shows and get home at three in the morning, take an hour nap, and show up at work. People would ask how I did it. I’m not dead yet. I may be married with two kids, but I am not dead.

    So what do you see happening in the future? It’s 2025. You’ll have another issue in six months and monthly shows. Any bigger ideas, or are you just seeing what the world throws your way?

    Holly:
    Face, the photographer, and I are going to work on a hardcover photo book from photos from our shows. He’s the best. What he does for the scene as a whole is invaluable. What he helps me with, I couldn’t be more grateful. He gives me great images to work with. He knows everybody, and if I need something, he’s right there to help.

    He is the official Outsider photographer. He hasn’t shot every single show we’ve done since the return, but almost all of them. We’re going to put together a book. That’s a project for early this year. We wanted it done for the holidays, but it wasn’t happening. Like I said earlier, if you push too hard against something and it’s not budging, you have to find a different way.

    I also want to do some sort of festival. Everybody keeps asking me for a festival. I don’t know if I can do an actual festival, because if you tell me festival, I will want to put on an actual festival, not just a bunch of bands playing in the same day. But we’ll see what I can pull off.

    Scott:
    Holly, you and I are kindred souls. I’m doing a two-day event in April because it’s both my 49th birthday and the four-year anniversary of me releasing records as DCxPC Live. My wife asked if I’m going to call it a fest. I struggle to call something a festival when it’s just two days with a lot of bands. Eight bands on a bill is not a festival. It’s just a really long show.

    If I’m going to call something a festival, I want vendors, food trucks, and a thing where people want to drive or fly in and stay overnight. I told my wife I might call it the Really Long Weekend.

    Holly:
    You should call it the DCxPC Really Long Weekend. Not a festival. Almost a festival. Festival light.

    Scott:
    I think we’re landing on Rally in the Valley because it has that Hudson Valley gathering feeling. I didn’t invent the term. I’m sure it has been used before. But it avoids the pressure of calling it a festival.

    Holly:
    I like that. It has a ring to it.

    Scott:
    I don’t think this venue can provide what I would envision as a full festival.

    Holly:
    Did you go to the Heavy HV Fest?

    Scott:
    I didn’t make it. Was that at Reason and Ruckus?

    Holly:
    No, it was at the Grange in Newburgh, the Balmville Grange. That was a lot of fun. He had bands playing upstairs while there were vendors and food downstairs and outside. It was all day. Using something like that would be really fun. I’m also thinking about an outdoor venue maybe. I just started talking to the venue I’m interested in. It hasn’t gone anywhere yet, but that might be something we do at the end of summer or early fall.

    Scott:
    If you need help, a sponsor, vendors, please speak to me. I’d be happy to be involved as best I can.

    Holly:
    Thank you. Same for you. If I can help you within what I have going on, I’d be happy to help. This is not a competition. This is a community.

    Scott:
    I love that collaboration. I constantly share shows I’m not playing. People ask why I would do that. I say, why would I not? If they would rather go to that show, I’m not going to hide it from them. Good for them. People go to different shows for different reasons: bands, location, venue, all of it.

    I’m not about hoarding. I’m about creating community. If you have a show the same night as mine, yay. There is a show on January 12th the same night as my Snapper show at Avalon Lounge in Catskill, and I shared that flyer. It looks like a great hardcore show.

    Holly:
    I don’t appreciate it if I get booked over, but if you’re booking a very, very different show, what’s the problem?

    Scott:
    Exactly. The Hudson Valley is a lot of people.

    Holly:
    I would much rather have more shows going on than I know what to do with than nothing.

    Scott:
    I would love if there were four shows every Saturday that I had to choose from. That would be great.

    Holly:
    You can’t really complain.

    Scott:
    Those are big plans. Don’t understate that. You’re going to keep doing what you’re doing, which is impressive as fuck. You’re going to work with Face, who I want to get on this show, but I’m not exactly sure how to have a photographer on here. Maybe I’m making a YouTube-only video podcast because I feel like his work needs to be visually available.

    Holly:
    With most photographers I know who shoot a lot of music, the reason they are able to do what they do in such abundance is because they know the musicians so well. They’ve gotten to know them. You would probably get a lot of really cool stories by talking about their relationships with the scene and the musicians themselves.

    They’re right up there. They’re getting personal. To get into shows and have access, you have to have a certain level of knowledge of who you’re dealing with, and you make friendships. I think you’d get more out of that conversation if you went at it that way.

    Scott:
    I think you are helping me un-rigidify myself. I was being fairly rigid. It’s going to make my wife angry because she said something similar, and I wasn’t in the headspace to listen.

    Holly:
    Face particularly knows everybody. He’s been involved with the music scene for a very long time, so I think he would have cool stories.

    Scott:
    I met him at that same Chance show where I met you. That’s when I first saw RBNX, and he hangs around with them.

    Holly:
    Yeah. He’s their drummer.

    Scott:
    Oh my gosh. That’s funny to us now. Sorry, inside joke.

    Holly:
    If you don’t know them, go look up photos. Go follow RBNX. Go follow FacePhoto77.

    Scott:
    Would FacePhoto77 have any photos of himself?

    Holly:
    Probably not.

    Scott:
    Then you’ll be wondering, am I looking at the drummer or am I looking at Face?

    Holly:
    They wear different glasses. Phil has a mustache now. That’s the key.

    Scott:
    I had so much fun. Thank you so much for being part of this. Thank you everyone at home, in your car, or in a basement somewhere, doing whatever you’re doing while you’re listening to this. I hope it’s appropriate.

    Check out the links in the episode. I’ll have links to Holly’s pages, Instagram, website, and the archive of Outsider. Go grab some copies.

    Most of all, take what Holly does and do it yourself. Get off your ass and make things happen. If something isn’t happening, make it happen. You can’t just sit around waiting for all the Hollys of the world to do it for you. Become a Holly.

    Holly:
    I need help. I need helpers.

    Scott:
    She needs helpers. I guess I could volunteer to help, but I’m a little spread thin myself. I would love to be something if I can.

    Holly:
    I think you’re a little busy. You’re doing something really great. You’re finding bands I’ve never even heard of. I find out about bands from you all the time. Your shows are fun, and what you’re doing is very unique. I like the concept of what you’re doing a lot. Be a Scott, guys. Be a Scott.

    Scott:
    Thank you, everyone. I’m going to stop recording before we turn this into a total love fest.

  • Episode 7: Mike Dietz and Phil Bartsch of RBNX and Punk Island

    Scott:
    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore, punk, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing drums in hardcore bands in DC, Florida, and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows.

    I've had the privilege to meet a lot of amazing people. Unfortunately, I'm here with these guys.

    Today's guests are Mike Dietz and Phil Bartsch, who are in RBNX. But we don't give a fuck about their band today. We're here to talk about them because they serve on the committee for Punk Island, an annual free DIY punk festival in New York City that's been going on since 2008.

    In 2024, they hosted 75 different bands, including Winter Wolf, World Sucks, Maafa, Bachslider, RBNX, Soji, Stop the Presses, Car Bomb Parade, Trouble Bound, and more.

    I'll be honest. I've lived in New York almost two years now, and one family obligation or another has prevented me from making it to Punk Island. But I see the pictures. I've watched the videos. I'm always impressed and more than a little bummed that I wasn't there. Hopefully I can be there in 2025.

    Thank you guys for being on the thing. I can't wait to hear what you all tell me about this shit. What's going on, dudes?

    RBNX:
    You’ve never been?

    Scott:
    No, I've never been. I lived in Florida until two years ago. Then I moved up here, and the first one you had, of course I heard about it, but it’s a long drive from Florida to New York.

    RBNX:
    To start off, Punk Island is New York's biggest DIY punk event. Period. It is all ages, no drinking, no drugs. At certain points, it has hosted over 100 bands and had ten stages, with thousands of people coming out. It’s really a beautiful day.

    Scott:
    It looks absolutely phenomenal. I think both times I had to drive my kid and drop them off at camp somewhere or something like that. So if you could coordinate this year's Punk Island with my kids’ camp schedule.

    RBNX:
    There’s always a floating date thing. Because it’s a collective and there are so many people, that always gets changed. The event itself has changed locations through the boroughs during its history.

    It was initially at Governors Island, and there were some issues that happened there, so they stopped doing it there. We had done it at Randall’s Island a bunch, and that seemed to be a real viable spot. We had done it at other places with smaller capacity, and we had gone to other places with large capacity and realized that doing it at Randall’s is key to the situation.

    I like a fixed date on the whole thing because it helps book a lot more stuff throughout the year. Aside from Punk Island, we do other fests, and we’re in a band, so we do other stuff.

    Make Music New York really likes to push us to do it on the summer solstice. It’s the longest day of the year, so you get the most time outside. If you’re in a park, your sound permits are good for a certain time, and you still have a lighting situation. Normally they aim for the 21st. That also falls on Father’s Day a lot, which works out for punk dads, but not always for other families.

    Scott:
    I get it. I told my kid, it’s Father’s Day and your dad wants to go to Punk Island. She said, no, you’re dropping me off at camp. I’m like, fine. I guess that’s how I celebrate Father’s Day. Being a good father.

    All right, so let's assume there are people out there who have no idea what Punk Island is. Give me your one-minute elevator speech. If you're on an elevator for a minute, that's a really long fucking time, but give me a loose one-minute elevator speech explaining what Punk Island is to people who are not in the know.

    RBNX:
    Hello, sir, ma’am, or whatever you may identify as. Do you enjoy not spending money and having fun in New York City? Well, do I have a day for you.

    The date is not set yet, but if you give me your number, I will text you the list of bands we are going to have on this amazing day. It’s going to be over 100 of them, run by generators, will, and a couple permits. Will is not a person.

    It’s outdoors, and contrary to belief, it will not smell. You will have a great time. Now please give me money.

    Scott:
    So what inspired this? How did this start? Phil says you’re the archivist. Where did this come from?

    RBNX:
    Make Music New York is the funding behind it. They are the people who got behind it and wanted to have this festival. It started way back, and there were a handful of individuals who ran it very, very punk. It ended up causing a few problems, but because there was a collective, they stayed afloat.

    There was always a certain amount of funding, so the porta-potties, dumpsters, permits, and all that stuff weren’t coming out of the pockets of the people putting in the work. It’s a free event.

    New York City, or whoever the donor is, gives Make Music New York this set amount of money every year, and we’ve always made do with what we had. We put on a fucking kick-ass show. They like to associate it with Porch Stomp and a couple other New York City events during the solstice. That big outdoor live New York City thing is where it stems from.

    Scott:
    How do you decide? You said 100 bands, right? That’s a shit ton of bands. I mentioned last year you had at least 75 different bands. I have to imagine just within New York City alone there are 50 bands that want to play. So how do you decide who gets to play?

    RBNX:
    We all have our own stages. We run the Lunchbox stage. Every stage has a rule where it has to have two new bloods, which are bands that have never played before. They are usually under a year old and have no association with anyone from Punk Island. You just listen and look.

    Right now submissions are available, so we can start listening to all the bands that have applied. It really depends on who has applied and who has not been taken yet.

    We’ve had friends on other stages, and we’ve absorbed bands. It truly is a collective. We have a rough draft of what we want to accomplish with each stage. Every space has a huge list to pull from, and you sit there and look and listen. You see where people are from. We like to bring bands in internationally if we can.

    Because Punk Island is an all-ages DIY free thing, it does make it hard to pay bigger bands. So it ends up being a free thing or finding some way to make it worth it.

    We kind of center everything around headliners, quote unquote. Those are bands we think will be a good draw for the fest so that we can attract people from a social media aspect. Come see this band for free outside in New York City. Each stage is in charge of finding a band that they can center their set times around. But again, it depends on who applies, who hasn’t played before, and who fits.

    If you played one year, you can’t play for a couple years afterward. There is a whole constitution in there. If you’re an organizer and you do all the work, you’re allowed to play. That helps us meet new fans and new friends.

    Scott:
    I appreciate that. I go to a fair amount of festivals. Living in Florida, I went to The Fest every year for about a decade. I love The Fest, but there are a lot of repeat bands year after year. I’m like, can you give a new band a chance? I appreciate when some bands take a year off now and then.

    RBNX:
    We try to avoid repeats, aside from organizer bands that are consistent yearly. Even that, I try to switch up. We really only have RBNX every year, and then we try to bring in another friend band that has helped us out.

    We have tons of friends’ bands that ask how to get on. Really, it goes through the collective. We have a lot of say on who is on our stage, but at the end of the day, there are bigger decisions made across the board for larger bands that are going to be a shining point of a stage. That helps the day flow because everyone goes to check everything else out.

    One year we absorbed a band from our friends who had the Leg Drop stage. They asked if we would host Rebelmatic, which is one of our favorite bands in the city. We got to host Rebelmatic, who I know you know well. You did their live record.

    Scott:
    I love them. I did their live record, and they’re playing a show for me in April.

    RBNX:
    That record is awesome. We’re going to be playing with them next month in Brooklyn.

    We also booked Enrage. Enrage is one of the longest-running hardcore bands in Staten Island. Shout out to our friend Jeff from Enrage, who runs Mother Pug’s. Definitely a place you should be looking into if you want to get into that area. He’s got so many dates, and he’s such a sweetheart. Him and Kath.

    We had Rebelmatic and Enrage back to back, and that was a dream come true. But we absorbed one of those bands, so sometimes you have to be flexible. Last year, some bands needed to come to our stage, and we had enough time to do it. Everyone has a time slot. If we have the power and permission to do it, you’ll have a show.

    Scott:
    How do you manage the shows per stage? At Fest, they have 15 venues going on, and they stagger their shows at least to some degree so you can catch 15 minutes of one band and 15 minutes of another.

    You’ve got seven stages. You’re not all starting at 3:00 and 3:30, right? Are you staggering the times, or does every stage run the way it runs?

    RBNX:
    We are given the time that our permit runs from. Based on how many bands you have on your stage, there is a suggested time to start, but you can start the minute the sound permit begins and go until the second it ends if you really want to jam them all in there.

    Everyone tries to run it as professionally and smoothly as possible. There are staggered times. Some stages do have the same start times, but there are probably six or seven other stages that do not. So you can catch three or four songs from this band, then that band, just by walking down the line or around the circle. That’s one of the great parts about it.

    Scott:
    That’s super rad. That sounds like one of the parts I would love. Unlike Fest, I don’t have to walk to 15 venues. I can just walk down.

    RBNX:
    Exactly. At Fest, there are venues. You’re walking down the block, going into this place and that place. At Punk Island, you’re just there. You are walking around in a circle or in a line or whatever the map looks like that year. You can see all these bands like that.

    Scott:
    That’s awesome. I haven’t been to Warped Tour since ’98, back when the Warped Tour was actually punk rock.

    RBNX:
    Punk Island isn’t even like Warped Tour. Warped Tour had the one, two, one, two stage thing. Punk Island is its own thing. I think one of the best parts is the way it is set up and the logistics of the day.

    Scott:
    Do you backline all the bands to make it easier for changeovers? I know some festivals will have spots with Orange amps already set up and a drum set, and everyone just brings heads and breakables.

    RBNX:
    Every band is designated to have their own backline. There is some sharing that goes on, and a couple stages help out and have extra gear, but every stage is supposed to have its own backline set up.

    If bands play with combos or whatever, they can bring their own stuff, but it’s suggested to bring heads and breakables to make changeovers easy. You will have to walk it across. But it is super DIY. It’s not sponsored by Orange or anything like that. It’s the biggest DIY punk fest, and they really stick to that.

    Scott:
    Do you get vendors? I believe you get zine vendors. Do you limit vendors to that, or do you allow record labels, skateboarding companies, and stuff like that to set up tables?

    RBNX:
    There are no sales. There are no monetary transfers. Bands might bring their merchandise and have it, but aside from that, it’s more like Punk Rock Saves Lives being set up. They’re donation only. There are some donation-based groups there, but overall everyone is there to give, show off, support the scene, and have stuff going on.

    With the zine vendors, there have also been self-defense courses and other trainings. There is bigger community stuff that goes on with the zine vendor area. It says vendors, but no one is really selling anything.

    There are food vendors so people don’t have to leave the island. That is set up through Make Music New York.

    Scott:
    And for water too? I assume people have to buy water.

    RBNX:
    For the bands, we get cases of water the day of. There is a bunch of stuff we put out money for. Antonio, who is the president of everything right now, really takes care of a lot of that. They go to Costco with a big list of everything everyone needed and wanted, and he really gets all of it.

    Antonio Rodriguez does Punk Island. He is part of the Gilligan stage. Pete from NCM has a bunch of other bands. He’s a New Paltz guy too. Pete Crotty from NCM was really good friends with Box, who got us on Punk Island. That was actually my first show at Punk Island with Exit 17, because of James and Pete and the Gilligan stage and Antonio.

    Antonio really takes care of it. Him and Arlene, everyone is awesome. Everyone on the committee does their part and pulls their weight. Our first meeting is next month. It’s truly a well-oiled machine.

    Scott:
    You guys weren’t there from the beginning, so you just mentioned how you came upon it. Is there a constant search for new people to come in and be part of it, or would that become untenable if you had too many people? How do you manage the growth and keep it inclusive without going so big that it’s unmanageable?

    RBNX:
    Every stage has its own group of people who do their own stage work. Among that, there are different groups of people in the punk scene and heavy music scene. There’s death metal, grindcore, noise, punk, ska. You name it.

    Gabe used to do Big Orange, which was a strictly ska stage. It’s not completely genre divided, but every stage has its own vision. We like to see people who are doing a ton of booking in the area push to have their own stage and really work for it.

    There are a ton of New York and tri-state area promoters who would fit the bill and could have their own stage. I think the more the merrier, as long as it’s maintained. We have a handful of meetings before we do this. There are monthly meetings, and then in the month before, there is one every week. We used to meet in person all the time. Now it’s online, but coming up to the event, there are tons of check-ins, and everyone is doing their thing.

    Scott:
    There has to be a physical space limit, right? You’ve got seven stages. Maybe you can go to 14, but you couldn’t go to 21.

    RBNX:
    I don’t know, man. I would say the real limit is paying for power. That would be the biggest cost, the electricity. I think the space is actually there. At Randall’s Island, when we’ve done 12 stages, we probably could have done 21 stages. It was really just having the power to do it.

    Scott:
    Fascinating. Sponsor power. Sponsored by energy.

    Speaking of announcing, have you announced who’s playing the Lunchbox stage yet? Are there any hints you’re allowed to share?

    RBNX:
    I haven’t even looked at the signups yet. There are people we’ve been talking to for years, but we’re going to keep those under wraps because we don’t want to spoil headliners if they don’t say yes or no. We’re always working upwards and onwards.

    Either way, it’s going to be fun. It’s our WrestleMania. It’s our Super Bowl of the year. We’re shot afterward, but it’s a good tired. It’s like after a good workout and you’re dirty.

    They just announced submissions and volunteers. We’ve met a lot of cool people who volunteered, and they keep coming to them. If they have a band, either we become friends with them or they play Punk Island. If people volunteer and help out, there is a voting process for getting them on the board. They come to meetings, and that is the way we got in.

    Scott:
    I think it’s great that you actually get volunteers because most festivals have volunteers so they can get free tickets. But there’s no ticket at Punk Island because it’s already free. That’s phenomenal to me. That speaks to the community you’re building.

    RBNX:
    That’s a great point. And to what you were saying about how we vet people for stages, we see the stuff you’re doing in the Hudson Valley. I would love to see DCxPC have a stage because I know you’d run a sick fucking stage. I know you’d have your shit together with it.

    That’s how we know everyone is doing their thing. We get people like yourself who are trustworthy and capable. People we trust and want to see do it.

    As for bands being booked, not exactly yet. We’re waiting to see what comes in because not everyone has applied yet. We want to see who actually applies.

    We also have the benefit shows booked now. You were talking about doing Sunday matinees up in Kingston. We’re going to be doing the last day of February, March, and April for Punk Island benefits. All stages are required to do benefit shows. They are required to do two. We’re going to be doing at least three.

    Scott:
    Are they all going to be in New York City, or are they everywhere?

    RBNX:
    They’re all in the tri-state area. Whoever promotes these shows and whoever does these stages has to do benefits. You’ll see them pop up in Brooklyn, Long Island, Queens, Croton-on-Hudson, and other places. Green Growler in Croton does a lot of them.

    It doesn’t run on punk time.

    Scott:
    I put the punk in punctuality. My world is all about being on time and managing shit the right way. I don’t do late. I don’t do tardy. I end on time. If you say I have 23 minutes and 15 seconds to play, I play 23 minutes and 15 seconds.

    So what has been the biggest struggle? I hear all the positives, and I’m sure most of it is positive. But if you had to name one barrier that, if removed, would make everything go easier, what would it be?

    RBNX:
    There is a reason why large concerts have security. There are people who drink and do drugs. It is an all-ages free event, and it is technically a family thing. When there is a problem, it is good that we have the security we have.

    Nothing dangerous has happened in the eight or nine years I’ve been there, but there are people you can’t plan for. We’ve had to say, you need to leave, or you need to put that away. There have also been bands that played at one point and then got canceled or something happened later. That happens at every fest. Look at Warped Tour.

    Scott:
    You’re patrolling a park and saying there are no drugs and alcohol. I could have a water bottle filled with vodka or a vape pen that is really something else. It sounds difficult to police, and not something you would really want to police. I think saying in general that it is not expected sets the tone.

    RBNX:
    If no one is acting out or being ridiculous, what are you going to do?

    Scott:
    Exactly. That was not a criticism. On some level, you’ve created a community expectation, and anyone who tries to go around it has to do it in such a subtle way that it doesn’t cause a problem.

    RBNX:
    Something that comes to mind is that every year somebody comments, “That’s not punk.” Whether it’s because their band didn’t play or because we have to tell people not to do certain things. If there was one criticism, it would be from people who say that’s not punk.

    We’re sorry we’re punking wrong. But seriously, you can be subtle about it. You don’t have to be slamming a PBR in the whole world’s face. You ruin it for everybody.

    Scott:
    I was a founding member and promoter of the Charm City Art Space in Baltimore. It was a nonprofit DIY space with no drugs and alcohol. There was a bar around the corner. Drink there between bands, come back, buy a soda, and watch the band with a soda in your hand. If you had to smoke weed, go out in the alley. So I get it.

    What are those moments where you said, this right now is so fucking great, this is why we do this? What are some moments where that happened?

    RBNX:
    Every year something like that happens. Since we were talking about Father’s Day, there are punk dads who bring their kids out. There is a whole community of punk dads and their kids going in the pit with their kids on their shoulders. They do it almost every year. That always puts a smile on my face.

    For us, it’s special because we wouldn’t have Punk Island without our friend Lunchbox and the band Exit 17 in New Paltz. It is a reminder of his friendship and a way to celebrate him. Having his name be part of our stage is really cool for us. We get to let our friend live on in that way.

    Seeing so many awesome bands and being able to hook it up for friends when the stars align is huge. It was also a turning point for our band. Once we started playing more, people started seeing us differently because we were coming out of the city more. That started the journey of putting the mileage in.

    Scott:
    How many bands do you get from outside New York City or New York entirely on average?

    RBNX:
    There is a good percentage. We’ve had bands come from Japan. Bands have come from California. We’ve tried to line up bands from the West Coast before. There are bands from Chicago, Florida. They come from all over.

    There are a ton of New York bands too. One issue with the festival and the date not always being solid is that it makes it hard for bands from out of state to make it happen.

    Scott:
    It’s already hard enough to say what you’re going to do three or four months from now. It’s even harder if you can’t give someone a firm date.

    RBNX:
    Right. We get criticism for that too. People ask why we can’t just tell them the date. The honest answer is that there is no solid date.

    Scott:
    How far out from the actual date do you get the date? Is it three months, two months?

    RBNX:
    We know in April, maybe the end of March. The whole thing is New York City and the permits. New York City makes it hard with permits. We usually move forward without waiting for the permit to be approved because they take forever. It’s bureaucratic, and it’s the biggest city in the world.

    Make Music New York makes it easier because we go through them, and they get it taken care of instead of us jumping through every burning hoop.

    Scott:
    In April, that’s still only about two months’ notice.

    RBNX:
    Yeah, but if you applied earlier, now you’re being told you can come, and now you have to line up a tour 55 days from now. That can be hard.

    Scott:
    I get that. I would tell a band to start booking a tour at least three or four months out, not two months out.

    Does that cause a lot of cancellations? People say they want to do it, but when the date finally comes through, they can’t?

    RBNX:
    It definitely makes it harder. You have these floating situations. There are no real guarantees for bands. But people are coming no matter what, and we love that everyone comes.

    Scott:
    This is very DIY and very committee-run, which I appreciate. Is there anyone who has been there from the beginning, or has it changed over to the point where no one is OG?

    RBNX:
    Antonio, Arlene, and ourselves are the oldest ones currently involved. No one is from the beginning. But people from the beginning do sometimes come in and help or offer knowledge from the past.

    We have a really strong team from every stage. Everyone is on point the day of. Everyone is ready.

    Scott:
    Who handles the social media? Social media is unfortunately both good and bad, and it is how you spread the word of the festival.

    RBNX:
    Arlene handles it. She runs Taking Back Queens, though I’m not sure if it has a new name now. She took a year off last year because she was getting married and doing a lot of that planning, but she still stayed involved with Punk Island planning and did the social media.

    She runs Crystal Moon PR. She did all the PR and stuff for our last record. Crystal Moon is also the new stage. Arlene is awesome. She did a great job with our record, and she does a great job with Punk Island. She is a force to be reckoned with.

    If you see all those posts, she does every single one of them. In the weeks before, she is cranking them out. She is always asking everyone for their stuff. I’ll send it a few days before the deadline and say sorry, and she’ll be like, no, you’re good. It’s the people who get it to her right when she’s posting the first set of stuff that can make it hard. But she brings the fire. She takes care of it.

    Scott:
    That’s awesome. I love the group collaborative effort. That speaks so much to the punk rock community. I feel like you guys and the rest of the committee are carrying the flame of the DIY punk scene.

    RBNX:
    We’re trying. It means a lot to us to keep it going.

    The Punk Island thing came from us doing Hudson Valley stuff. We’ve been booking shows forever because no one would book us. At a certain point, the heavy music scene was kind of dead here. If you weren’t in a well-known heavy band in the Hudson Valley, you weren’t going to be playing a bunch of big shows. So it was very small fish, and we cultivated a scene for small fish.

    There are so many bands that we helped get their first show together. I’m so happy we could do that with people. So many people came to their first show on a whim because we handed them a sticker or told them to come out. That stuff really makes me happy.

    Cultivating the scene and watching it grow, seeing people come out and want to be part of it, watching people submerge themselves in it, that is fucking awesome. It grew into us being part of Punk Island and pushing that even farther.

    Scott:
    I totally feel that. You mentioned the shows I’m doing at Snapper Magee’s. The owner asked what was in it for me. I said, I like my punk rock community, and there are not enough punk rock shows in the area. I want to do them, and I want to bring bands I like. If the shows I want to see aren’t happening, then I need to make them happen myself. I’m going to book the bands I dig.

    It’s the whole Field of Dreams thing. I’ve done that my whole life for 30-plus years. If no one is booking the show here, I’m going to start booking the show here and make it happen as best I can.

    That gets to the ethos of this podcast. Everyone likes to talk about the bands, but it’s the other work. I can talk about RBNX and tell you how much I love your band, your recordings, your live shows, and you as people. But there are a thousand podcasts that talk about bands. The work you guys are doing with Punk Island, I’m an atheist, but that’s God’s work right there.

    RBNX:
    We’ll take the small kudos, but it’s everybody. We couldn’t do it without everyone, as cheesy and cliche as that is.

    We do our stage, but for us that’s the easy part. Bringing gear, setting it up, and telling our friends when to play is the easy part. But in a collective, you are working with so many different personalities and people who have different opinions. The beauty of having your own stage is that you can say, all right, you do yours, and we’ll do ours, and we’ll figure out what works best for everybody.

    It truly is a collective. We appreciate it, but it’s not just ours. It’s everybody who works there, and it’s also the bands and the people who come. If bands wouldn’t come and people wouldn’t come, what’s the point?

    You get your street punks, your hardcore kids, your Black punks, your trans punks. Everybody comes out. You really get a great mix of people because of how many stages are pulling from as far out as they can to bring people in. That is really cool to see.

    Scott:
    Two things. When I say you guys, I mean everyone involved in Punk Island is doing the atheist God work.

    As far as diversity, I 100% agree. I’m doing it on a much smaller scale, but that’s kind of my goal when I do shows. I don’t want it all to be heavy hardcore. I don’t want five ska bands or five pop punk bands or five skate rock bands or five grindcore bands. I want to see five bands that all sound different.

    RBNX:
    Five grindcore bands would be over quick.

    Scott:
    It would be over so fast. Share equipment and make it even faster. That poor drummer.

    RBNX:
    They all have the same drummer.

    Scott:
    Sometime in the mid-to-late ’90s, I first heard grindcore. I got this tape, and it was something like 60 bands on one tape. I was like, what the fuck is this? I don’t know if I love this or hate this. It takes all the stuff from the very first DRI recording and turns it up to 15. The song titles were longer than the songs.

    RBNX:
    By the time you read the song title, the song is over.

    Scott:
    Exactly. We won’t get into why your band name exists because this isn’t a podcast about bands. But I still love your band. I used to think your band name was an amp or some sort of recording equipment. I saw your stickers everywhere when I got up here, and I was like, oh, is this like Peavey or Marshall or Orange? I literally thought you were some sort of technology sticker.

    RBNX:
    We’re technology. We’re very high tech. We’re in a low-tech world.

    Scott:
    Before we wrap this up, what is one thing people should know about Punk Island?

    RBNX:
    You’ve got to see it to believe it. You can hear Punk Island in its pictures. Go look at any picture of Punk Island, and what you see is what you get. It is the real deal. It is truly a beautiful day for punk rock and community.

    Please go and have some fun because it’s going to be awesome. Get there early, stay late. It is well worth your time and your money, even though it’s free.

    There are bands that have played Punk Island that are now opening for bands we all have posters of on our walls. You might see a band and later remember that time you saw them in a field. There have been Super Soaker fights. It’s just one of those days.

    We can’t tell you what this year is going to be like, but we have the confidence to say you have to come. You have to see it to truly believe it. Look at any of the pictures and videos. If you want to help out and volunteer, we would love the help. We’ll be there.

    Scott:
    Fuck yeah. Thank you, Phil. Thank you, Mike. Thank you to Punk Island and everyone involved in it for all you do. The committee, the bands, the people who go out to the fucking show. Not me apparently, but I will make it this year.

    RBNX:
    It’ll keep going. COVID slowed it down, but there is no stopping it at this point. It’s a yearly event that will continue.

    Scott:
    That’s awesome. Thank you, Mike and Phil. Thank you everyone for listening. This has been DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support.

  • DCxPC Live - Scott (00:17)

    Alright everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene, the recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphics artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more. I'm your host Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting live hardcore punk, Scott and metal shows on short run vinyl. I have 30 years experience playing drums in hardcore bands across the DC Florida and New York area, as well as booking and promoting shows.

    I've had the privilege to work with a lot of talent and I'm stoked to talk to them. Today's guest is Gerry Lafamina, president and founder of Savage Mountain Punk Arts in Frostburg, Maryland, a nonprofit dedicated to the preservation, promotion, and production of punk arts in Northern Appalachia with a focus on Western Maryland and the surrounding areas. One of the most notable ways they do this is their annual Savage Mountain Punk Arts Festival, which brings bands big and small from around the country to play in their small mountain town for a three-day festival open to all ages. I first met Gerry

    in my ever so brief stint filling in on drums for Some Kind of Nightmare. As fun as the show was, the part that really sticks in my mind was the kindness and graciousness he and his partner Mercedes showed all of us, both at the show and at the home where they let us stay. So as much as I'm stoked to introduce him to listeners, I'm more excited just to catch up with someone who I've come to know, respect, and even love. Hey Gerry, how we doing buddy?

    Gerry (01:38)

    Scott, that was beautiful, man. Beautiful. I love you. I love what you do. I'm excited to be here.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (01:41)

    Thank you.

    So you are in Frostburg, Maryland in the middle of nowhere, right?

    Gerry (01:50)

    Yeah, if you could draw a line between DC and Pittsburgh, almost dead center of that line is where I'm at.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (01:59)

    Okay, because I gotta say, years of living in the DC area, you know where I never went was Frostburg, Maryland.

    Not once. West Virginia.

    Gerry (02:07)

    You know, I get that a lot, but you'll

    be surprised now how many people come to Frostburg and Cumberland from the DC area.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (02:15)

    I actually would not be. Like, it was a very pleasant town and the show we played was not one of your annual events. Was it? was just something you put together to Some Kind of Nightmare or was it part of something that you do regularly?

    Gerry (02:29)

    No, it was

    a one-off for Some Kind of Nightmare. You know, like, we will do things for bands when they're coming through if it's possible for us to do it. And we've opened an art gallery recently and we're doing visual art shows every other month that last two months. And we're always doing a show with the opening. So we have a show of Appalachian Ink.

    basically tattoo artists from Northern Appalachia who will be showing their work. And we have the Cheats playing with the power. Of course, Todd Cheat from the Cheats is a long time tattooist, owned Saints and Sinners Tattoos in Pittsburgh. So we try to do these shows that are connected to the visual arts in some way.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (03:01)

    Rad.

    I that. I love that. So I need you to explain to people in whatever short or long-winded way you prefer what exactly is Savage Mountain Punk Arts and what's its mission, how did it involve, inspiration, the whole fucking kid in kaboodle. give me the buffet of knowledge that you have to provide.

    Gerry (03:41)

    Well, here, know,

    we'll start with the soup and salad course. You know, it started long before it was Savage Mountain Punk Arts, before we sort of created this nonprofit, which we did over during COVID. I had a bar in town called Dante's that, once school was out, really struggled in the summers.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (03:46)

    Okay.

    Gerry (04:09)

    And it was a place, a lot of jam bands and bluegrass bands played there, but they did a lot of rock and roll and my punk bands had played there. And I sort of said to them, look, your stage is empty and your bar is empty, much of July and August. What if I hosted a three day punk fest, or it was actually a two day punk fest then with an all ages show on Saturday afternoon. And they were like, well, we can't afford it. I said,

    DCxPC Live - Scott (04:16)

    Okay.

    Sure.

    Gerry (04:39)

    I'll cover the cost of the band.

    And I basically figured if I went to Baltimore and I spent a weekend at shows in Baltimore, how much would it cost? Hotels, food, driving, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I fashioned a budget from there. It was mostly regional bands, bands from Pittsburgh, from Richmond, from D.C. But we got the Nuclears from New York to come out and we got the Monies from Massachusetts who were on tour.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (05:12)

    Alright.

    Gerry (05:13)

    And it paid for itself. Like, it didn't make money, but it didn't lose money. I sort of, and the bar was happy, so we did it again the following year, and I sort of said, well, if I made this much money and I was willing to spend that much money, then my budget could actually be this much money, right? Like, right, would be more.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (05:35)

    More! Don't believe it! Yeah! Yeah!

    Gerry (05:39)

    And so then I was able to get like, Fuck you Pay Me from Cleveland. by year three, I brought the undead that year. And by year three, we were having Argyle Goolsby and The Cryptkeeper Five and The Pagan Babies. And by year four, we had the Queers

    DCxPC Live - Scott (06:04)

    There you go. Okay.

    Gerry (06:05)

    And at The Queers, we sort of hit capacity. Like we could no longer be in this small bar. So we started to sort of look around, COVID happened and shut everything down. And we decided, well, you know, wouldn't it be great if we did an outdoor event to support bands during COVID? And so that's when we did our first punk picnic, because it was outside and we could do it.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (06:14)

    Okay.

    Sure.

    Okay.

    Gerry (06:34)

    And then we did an outdoor Halloween show again outside and we try to do these sort of little like port shows at an outdoor at a bar again Saturday nights outside. But but by then, you know, we had a team of people who were helping me to do this. Now, it's easy to say I chose to do this and blah, blah, blah. But by by year three.

    there was a group of people who was invested in doing it. Monetarily, time-wise, energy-wise. And so we had a conversation about, what if we created a nonprofit? And I contacted the State Arts Council because, you know, one of the great things about being a nonprofit is you can actually do things like apply for grants. I mean, how many punk rock

    DCxPC Live - Scott (07:31)

    Sure, yeah.

    Gerry (07:33)

    events, do you know that are sponsored by a state arts council or a county arts council? And, you know, the state arts council was like, we love this and we so we created this board and it included a graphic designer, included an archive librarian because we wanted to archive all the stuff that had happened before I got to this area.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (07:39)

    I think Punk Island is the only one that I know of off top of my head.

    Gerry (08:03)

    And included, you know, some business people, some bookkeeping people. And, you know, when I toured in the 80s, Scott, and I'm sure you know this from playing shows all over the place, like, it wasn't one person doing it. It was a team of people who was renting a hall, who had a PA, who made the flyers, who was running zines. And so the board is sort of that group. as we've grown,

    DCxPC Live - Scott (08:02)

    Sure.

    Gerry (08:33)

    Like we realized we needed somebody with some legal skills. So we brought a paralegal on the board. We needed somebody with some fundraising skills. So we brought a grant writer on the board.

    when you do something like this, it's what you kinda said when we were talking in the stuff you cut before we went on. If you're gonna do this, you wanna do it sorta right. And so, know, now here we are, this is coming up in 2025, it'll be our 10th Savage Mountain Punk Fest. And I'll make the announcement here, we have The Dwarves headlining.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (09:01)

    Yeah!

    That's amazing.

    Fuck yeah, that's amazing.

    Gerry (09:25)

    We have an offer out to Superchunk to be our Friday night headliner. And our Thursday night headliner, I actually just signed the contract today, is Ultra Bomb. And people are gonna go, who the fuck's Ultra Bomb? Well, Ultra Bomb is Greg Norton of Husker Du and Derek of Social Distortion.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (09:32)

    Fuck yeah.

    Gerry (09:48)

    And they are an amazing power trio that I would say if you don't know who they are, you should check them out.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (09:54)

    yeah, that is, dude, that is amazing, man. That is, like, that is kind of the whole point of what this whole podcast is about, right? The scene support. You're in a band, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about you gathering people together.

    to provide a space not only for the music you love, but you're even helping your own community. Like I have to imagine the amount of money you're bringing into the shows are often in Cumberland or Frostburg. It's gotta help the local businesses. It has to help the local government because the tax revenue, like you're a force for good.

    Gerry (10:30)

    Well, it is, but we're also a force for good in other ways. We've done benefit shows. Last year we did a Hunger Moon benefit. There was nearly $6,000 in student lunch debt in the public schools for kids who were not getting free lunch. We did a benefit to pay off the school lunch debt. Not only did we pay off the entire school lunch debt, we had enough money to support summer programs to feed kids when they're not in school. We've done benefits to support.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (10:57)

    That is amazing,

    Gerry (11:00)

    You know, and it's a community thing. know, a whole bunch of people who would think, I don't like punk rock, come to these events and suddenly they go, oh, I actually like punk rock and more. Yes, it's a force for good. There is something to be said for seeing 200 people in, know, in combat boots and Chuck Taylors and Vans and black t-shirts walking around downtown Cumberland for a weekend.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (11:11)

    Hahaha

    Yes.

    Gerry (11:30)

    And they're there for only one reason and that's to see punk rock.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (11:35)

    That's awesome. That is just great. So you made it a non-profit. Yeah.

    Gerry (11:38)

    And I will say this real quick, Scott, if I could say,

    it's also reciprocal. We have bars now that do Savage Mountain happy hours before the festival starts, before those shows. We have restaurants and stores that say, hey, if you're here for Savage Mountain Punk Fest, we'll give you a discount. Because they recognize the value of that audience.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (12:07)

    Yeah, and that's great. And so when you do it, you only use one venue for your festival or is your festival spread over multiple venues? Because I've seen both versions. So like I go to the Fest in Gainesville fairly regularly and that's like 15 bars. But like Not Croydon Fest, which is a ska festival in Bensalem, Bensalem, however you pronounce it, Pennsylvania, that's all one venue, The Broken Goblet the whole time. It's a big venue, but you're basically in the same place all day long. So how does yours work?

    Gerry (12:37)

    It is one venue. We use a place called Mezzos. The basement of this place is just an old school punk rock bar. But it's got a it's got a second floor restaurant where everybody eats. mean, there's a lot of places to eat in town, but pretty much everybody eats there. And then the third floor is a venue. Last year, we were doing flash tattoos up there thanks to our collaboration with tattoo punks.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (12:40)

    Okay.

    Gerry (13:07)

    And it is a two block walk from the Ramada Inn where I'd say 80 % of the people who come to the festival stay. And they love it. They buy records between bands, walk their stuff back to their room and then come back for the next band.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (13:24)

    That is such the perfect idea. I often struggle with people calling something a fest when it's one day and it's eight bands. I'm like, that's just a really long show. For me, know, it's like, and I get it, not to ever criticize what someone else does because they're doing something and that's great that they're doing it, but like,

    you have to have a place where it allows people to come from out of town where they can stay and they can get to the venue and then they can do all this and it becomes more than just going to a long show. becomes, Oh, I'm staying here this weekend. I'm staying at a hotel. I'm close to the venue. I'm checking out the local bars. I'm checking out the local tattoo shops. Like it's, it's not every

    town that can always do something like that perhaps I don't know like do you think Cumberland just happened to be the right place for what you needed

    Gerry (14:20)

    Yeah,

    You know, there's, you know, sometimes it's just the nexus of right time, right place. The venue is a good venue. It's got its issues, but the owners really want stuff to happen. The city of Cumberland really wants stuff to happen. And the county, from the County Arts Council to the

    tourism have been really supportive of what we do. You know, mean, I mean, it's it's kind of amazing how it worked out. And it is a place with hotels within walking distance, a lot of restaurants and what people also find out, of course, they come from D.C. or they come from Baltimore or they come from New York.

    And suddenly everything is like 50 percent cheaper. Which they also like. You know, this whole idea of festival, it's really interesting because we get a lot of bands. So we had DOA play last year. And Joey, Joey says to me, I thought this was going to be outside. And I was like, no. And he's like.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (15:32)

    Ha ha.

    Gerry (15:52)

    This is just like a small club show. And I say, I always say that. They hear festival and they think it's gonna be, know, 10,000 people and I'm selling water for $20 a bottle. And I really, think of this as, I'm sort of remaking what I experienced growing up in New York in the 80s, which was, know, CBGB's festival or something like that, where, you know.

    They're just doing a long weekend of a lot of shows and maybe it is just, you know, three days of long shows. But it's three days in which we invite people into our community and we take really good care of them.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (16:37)

    I think that's you know kind of the key to what I'm going to You know I'm not quite doing as big as you, but I'm doing my first two-day event I'm doing a monthly shows now at a place in uptown Kingston called Snappers Starting in like two weeks and in April. It's my 49th birthday, and it's the fourth anniversary of the label, so I'm doing a two-day event and

    You know, I'm trying, I'm not calling it a fest. I'm going to call it the rally of the valley. But I'm bringing bands, which I already do anyway. big focus is like most shows are often like three or four local bands. And I love the local scene here. But I also think it's better if you have two or three out of town bands. So I'm doing like sandwiches or I have an opening for that's out of town. mean, a local opener, local closer, and then two or three out of towners in the middle. And I'm these matinees. So like, I'm going to be like, oh, I see what you do.

    And I'm like, I love what I'm doing and I love the venue. like, but there's no space for me to have vendors. There's no space for me to have food trucks. Like I want that. I want to be able to provide a larger experience if possible. Do you provide the vendors and food trucks? Do you take sponsors? Cause I know a lot of festivals do that.

    Gerry (17:47)

    We take sponsors and because the venue has a restaurant in it, we don't need a food truck. But I should say this, do, in May, we do our annual Savage Mountain Punk Picnic. And we have food vendors, we have food trucks and food vendors, and then we have arts vendors, outdoors, this is a picnic area in a city park.

    And when we do our Punktoberfest, we always have room for X number of vendors and food in the back. It really is an event by event sort of thing. We really, for the festival, we try not to have a lot of vendors insofar as that we don't want to take away from the band selling merch, et cetera, et cetera.

    You know if somebody goes upstairs, and I have record vendors How does that affect the possibility a band will make money off vendors? But we have done we did do art shows on the third floor and like I said last year we had Tattoo tattoo punks doing flash tattoos, which was great And I think we're definitely gonna do that again. We've also had like punk rock saves lives there

    and other organizations designed to help the community.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (19:20)

    interesting. Yeah because I've vended at places like Camp Punk, Pennsylvania and I'm kind of out there the entire day. I've never vended at Fest, but I know at Fest in Gainesville the vending is only for the first four hours on that Friday.

    and after that there's no more vending. So the vendors basically come in, they do their pre-setup right near where everyone's checking in and getting their wristbands and then go into their hotels afterwards or whatnot. So it's kind of a hey, come here, get your wristband, the first band doesn't play for a couple hours, walk through here, buy a couple things, walk back to your room, drop it off and then come see the first band. Which I think is a way to kind of mitigate your concern.

    Gerry (19:59)

    That's

    an interesting way. I mean, I think the other thing, of course, is if you're a vendor, right? You talked about Camp Pennsylvania. If you're a vendor and you're on the third floor, you're not seeing the bands, right? Or you're running downstairs, running upstairs.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (20:17)

    Yeah, I did

    it.

    Last year I struggled to see the bands. There's two stages and I would have to leave my area because even though I got two tickets with my vendor thing, I couldn't find anyone that was available to come down and would commit to working with me even though I had a free ticket. Whatever. It happens. So I would go and see like one song or two from every stage. But then I put up the sign that would like scan here if you buy something and at least three or four times I got to ding going, someone just bought a Phensic record. Very nice. I, there was an

    Honesty to the people that come to these events where they're like, I could steal this record But the guy has a Venmo thing here. So I'm just gonna scan it and pay him his 20 bucks and go

    Gerry (21:00)

    I will say this, know, the punk rock community is such an honest and such a loving community when it comes to the honor system. You know, I've never worried about having stuff stolen, at least not in this community.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (21:28)

    No, I agree. Even on tour, I walked away from stuff. And my general thought, I think one time when I was in a band, someone stole a hat or a beanie, I think. And someone told me, like, oh, that kid just grabbed that. I was like, eh, if they needed it that badly. Like, whatever. It's fine. I'm not going to go make a scene and go all la policia on the person. I'm like, it is what it is. In general, most people don't do that, so I'm not stressing it.

    Gerry (21:55)

    Karma will

    bite their ass eventually.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (21:59)

    Yeah,

    and they're still walking around advertising my band, so hey, go for it. Share it to everyone, tell them you stole it, tell them you bought it, I don't really care. But show everyone, yeah, this band was so great, I had to have their hat.

    Gerry (22:14)

    Yeah, I mean, I mean isn't that it like it's an it's a backhanded compliment like I Wanna I wanna I want to celebrate your band by wearing it But I couldn't afford it and I wanted it

    DCxPC Live - Scott (22:19)

    Yeah!

    Yeah, I wanted it really badly though, so I just snuck it. I was like, all right, so be it. So, what have been some of the highs and the lows of whether you talk about the festival itself or running punk arts in general?

    Gerry (22:45)

    I, you know, every year is a learning experience. and, and I think one of the, one of the lows of course is you're working with other people's venues. and you have to rely on a lot of people to make things happen. and, you know, sometimes the venues we work at, and this has been across the board, the owners.

    aren't as invested in what we're doing as we are in what they're doing. So, we often, struggle with that. you know, last year there was a flood, during, between Thursday night and Friday night of the festival, there had been a, one of the, one of the hurricanes had been stuck over Cumberland.

    And at around 12.30 on Friday afternoon, I got a phone call that there was about a quarter inch of water throughout the venue. had basically, know, water will find the lowest point, and it did. And the ownership of the venue wasn't gonna do anything about

    DCxPC Live - Scott (24:01)

    no.

    Sure, sure.

    Gerry (24:15)

    And so there were the board with mops and squeegees and shop vacs doing the work. And I had to contact the Dolly Rots for like, hey, we're coming to soundcheck. And I was like, no, just hold off for another hour or so, please. You know, and I think every year.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (24:15)

    Really?

    See ya.

    Yeah, I don't want you to see what we're doing here. Hold on a second. Let's

    Yeah, I mean, I get that. It's like a show in general. like, I have to have someone working the door, but I need them to show up. I get a sound guy to make sure it sounds right. I get someone to do the flyers, but they've got to have the flyers in on time. know, everyone's going to borrow one person's drum set, but the guy with the drum set gets in a car accident and he's not there and no one brought a backup drum set. How are we going to solve this? Everyone brought their breakables, but no one brought a drum throne.

    Gerry (24:46)

    You

    Yeah!

    Yeah.

    We're pretty good about Savage Mountain has its own backline. We backline everything as much as possible. But yeah, when you rely on other people, other people can be unreliable. And the other thing is, you constantly have to be accepting that there are things outside of your control.

    You know, we're pretty clear that your set time is from X to Y. And if you go on five minutes late, your set time still ends at Y, not Y plus five.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (26:00)

    Yep.

    Gerry (26:03)

    and you know, what we had to do is we last year we put big clocks facing facing the stage. because we just, we, we, you know, and, little things, you know, suddenly a headliner says to you, you know, a month before the show after, after our entire schedule is set, we're bringing an opening act. Well, what the, I have to figure out how to squeeze this band in.

    And what's really amazing is this, is that the other thing is that you learn who your friends are. So when this happened, I asked two local bands, I asked local bands to switch days. They both refused. So I started everything early, but messages didn't get sent to people.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (26:34)

    Sure, sure.

    Yeah.

    Gerry (26:59)

    And you know what? was bands who were like Gerry. There were bands who were from out of town who were like Gerry, I see you're completely stressed out. You tell us what you need. You need us to play 20 minutes. That's all we'll play. We're just happy to be here. You know, this is not something we make money at. know, this is something we do because it's a labor of love. And I sometimes.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (27:11)

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Gerry (27:28)

    get really frustrated when people make it about them?

    and not about the scene, not about the community. I wasn't trying to screw anybody. I was trying to deal with a problem that was dropped in my lap.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (27:48)

    Mm-hmm.

    And you were trying to make it work and nobody was willing to bend it all and say yeah we can make that happen.

    Gerry (27:56)

    Yes.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (27:57)

    I get it. It reminds me like there's a show way back, gosh, 24 years ago. I was with the Overprivileged. We were playing a show in Delaware and this young person had booked something like 15 bands that were supposed to play within like eight hours. There'd be less than that. And it quickly became obvious to me by the third or fourth band, when the math rock band played like for 45 minutes to an hour, that there was no way that every band was going to get to play.

    And so I decided to set up a second stage and have the next band have all their stuff set up and then we would carry the PA over and move it.

    It was fairly transportable. And all of a sudden, I had nothing to do with the show. I didn't set up the show. It was just one of the bands playing it. I pushed my band to last so that nobody thought I was trying to screw everyone. I cut everyone to like a 15 minute set and told them they had to be ready to go as soon as the other band was done, carry the pa over and go. And I think my band went on and played two songs before the lights. I mean, it was a hard stop. It was at this community center. They were not gonna allow it to go past like 11 o'clock at night. Like it had to be done like boom.

    lights out. I'm like, alright. And there are people that are angry with me. was like, I'm just trying to make sure everyone here gets to play a little bit. If you want to take care of it, that's fine. I'm not even in charge of this show, but the kid in charge is kind of abdicated and is outside hanging with her friends. They booked a lot of bands and had, it's okay. It's, you know, and I'm like, there's no way this can happen. Inconceivable.

    Gerry (29:26)

    You know,

    I look you and I both have been around for a long time and you've seen things not. You've seen how things don't work. You know, I, I, I, of course, have horror stories. I've like the other one, do another podcast on, you know, gig horror stories. You know, there are plenty. I have horror stories of what I've seen, I mean.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (29:39)

    Yep.

    Gerry (29:55)

    My basic thing is this, everybody gets paid. I don't, don't, don't pay. I don't stiff bands. I don't ever say, you're local. You don't have to get paid, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Unless it's a benefit and it's understood, hey, you're not getting paid for this. We're, trying to do a charitable thing. And that is the money isn't going to the organization at all. It's going to.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (29:56)

    No, yeah.

    Gerry (30:22)

    You know, our Toys for Tots show that we do every year. The bands often play for free. The idea being that we're collecting money and toys for the Toys for Tots. But pretty much you play the festival.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (30:38)

    I definitely

    noticed that many of you get paid.

    Gerry (30:42)

    Yeah, everybody gets paid. There's a minimum. There's a minimum you get paid. We know it's not, know, and there's like there's a big sort of heavy metal sort of hard rock festival in this town that happens and they don't pay local bands at all. And I just find that reprehensible. Band plays, you get paid.

    Because they're locals and they should be excited to play with these headliners, which is great. But Savage Mountain, want to, one of our missions,

    is to foster the production of new work, new bands, etc. And you do that by paying people, by treating them like what they do matters.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (31:40)

    And I agree with that and I think I probably over the years been prone to like okay I did a show for a touring band and sometimes it just doesn't go well. It's whatever night it is and maybe I only have 50 bucks at the door and I'm laying out extra money to the touring band and I don't have much then to give to the locals. Most of the time the locals would say if I'm just giving them 20 bucks just give it to the touring band. But I get that.

    you you want to treat the locals with respect. And I think in my younger days, I've certainly probably made that mistake of not doing so because I would be happy to play, pay without getting paid. But that's, that's not me giving respect to myself per se. Right? So I've learned over the years what you're saying is absolutely correct. Like everybody deserves to get paid. You're putting on the show, then you needed to keep, take that in mind.

    Gerry (32:32)

    Right, and-

    Right, and with the festival, course, that is especially important. Ditto the Punk Rock Picnic. The Punk Rock Picnic, we don't have a headliner. We pick the names out of a hat. It's all bands that have never played for us before. And every band gets paid 100 bucks and a bunch of beer tickets. But the two winners get to play the festival.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (32:52)

    Love that.

    There you go. Winners, so is there like a battle of the bands competition at the picnic?

    Gerry (33:07)

    And so, you know, so it's

    a battle of the bands. Yeah, it's a battle of the bands. It's a way of, and what happens is people tell their friends, you gotta come to this day long thing. It's gonna be outdoors. We're gonna be, you know, it's gonna be rock and roll and food and vendors. And, you know, it's an hour and a half away and we want you to come and people come.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (33:30)

    That's awesome. Yeah, it's a good time to have my all right there. That's great.

    Gerry (33:35)

    That's right.

    That's right. But yeah, when it comes to the organization, so this is, know, and it comes to these major shows, everybody gets paid. Smaller shows, they may not get paid as much, but we, our mission is to make sure people get paid.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (33:55)

    Yeah, and that makes perfect sense, as they should be. I'm going to be working with a band called Worldsucks Sucks. I've already helped them booking their tours plenty of times. They're like, you know Scott, you help us so much that we think you should come on as our de facto management. We should actually pay you for what you do. I was like, I don't mind. I said, help me. He was like, you are valued and you should get paid for it. I was like, well...

    That's fine, we'll do it. But I'm also gonna ask people to pay you. What do mean? You're past the point of touring and just taking whatever crumbs people will give you. You need to get paid, especially since you tend to donate a percentage of every show to a local charity. Their last tour they they donated a percentage to a reproductive rights center at every place they played on tour.

    I was like, you know, you're out there, you're on road, you're giving some money away, you should be able to say, hey, we need at least $150. That way you can donate a decent amount of money and also put gas in your car. Like that's not a big ask. So, yeah. You know, especially in a day where gas is no longer 99 cents a gallon, like it was 20 years ago.

    Gerry (34:42)

    That's great.

    I agree.

    Was that only 20 years ago? I think it was even longer than that.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (35:08)

    You

    I mean, I remember touring in 99, 2001, 2002, and it was like 99 cents at one point. I was like, oh, this is easy to do. Not a problem. And yeah.

    Gerry (35:23)

    Well, you know what's amazing

    is of course I started going to punk shows and shows were $5. know, like the CBGB matinee was $5. People still expect punk shows to be $5. And I'm like, what inflation hasn't hit punk rock? I mean, it's amazing. You know, last year, so last year at the festival, we had DOA, the Dolly Rots scream.

    17 other bands, including like Jigsaw Youth from Brooklyn who are great and... And, you know, tickets for the three days was $100.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (35:59)

    I just hung out with one of them the other day.

    Gerry (36:09)

    People complain! It's too much money! I'm like...

    Do you know how much it is a three day festival? It's like DOA has a set price. Scream had a set. It's like, I can only have, it's a 200, 250 person venue, tops.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (36:15)

    It's a three day festival.

    Yes.

    Yep. Yep.

    Gerry (36:32)

    I, you know, like do the math, people.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (36:33)

    I get it.

    the show I'm doing, those annual shows on Sundays, the bar wants me to keep it at five bucks. And I'm doing it for this first one and we'll see how many it goes. I'm bringing bands from out of town and they have 200 or $300 guarantees, which is not at all inappropriate to ask.

    But if I'm charging five bucks and I get a hundred people in and I have $500 and I have to pay the sound guy, I gotta pay the graphics person that made the thing, I have to pay the door guy who worked the door, and then I gotta pay the two or three touring bands, well, I should be able to break relatively even and maybe even lose a little bit of money like you had talked about earlier. But if I just charge seven bucks, that could ameliorate that whole process of me losing money. That extra two or three dollars could mean like, you know.

    Gerry (37:23)

    Yes. Yeah.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (37:28)

    Take that burden and be going, okay, how much out of pocket money I'm going to be out this show. I mean, I'm going to love every moment of it.

    Gerry (37:35)

    Yeah, I'm a firm believer right now in like, you know, in like the sort of regular daily show, the $10 show. And in part because I don't want to have to deal with making change.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (37:50)

    And change seems to be the number one issue. It's like $5 and people think $10 is too much and $7 and $8 cost is too much trouble. And I'm like, ugh.

    Gerry (37:59)

    Right, but I sort

    of feel like if you have five bands at 10 bucks, that's $2 a band.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (38:08)

    Yeah.

    Gerry (38:09)

    That's nothing.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (38:11)

    I agree.

    Gerry (38:13)

    And the other thing is like,

    you know, the difference in price is one PBR.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (38:19)

    Yes, exactly.

    And this is one of those great venues where like, you know, you can get an IPA for four bucks. And so they're not overcharging for their drinks at all. So you'll have plenty of money to drink. You can get, forget what they call it. They have a combo of PBR and a shot of tequila. And it's like $3. So you can get your game on just fine.

    Gerry (38:39)

    Wow.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (38:47)

    So, all right, so you.

    Gerry (38:48)

    Hey, by the way, I meant to tell you this,

    because you were talking about bands you work with, et cetera. Soji is coming to the festival this year.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (38:56)

    That is so rad you are so gonna love seeing them. They are amazing live great people to great people so Gary I have known for a very very long time and loved that guy to death back when he was in Common Enemy even before that when he was just coming to the shows and Before he became their new singer. Love that kid by kid. I mean, you know, somebody's probably in his mid-30s now

    Gerry (38:59)

    I can't wait.

    Kids to us, buddy, kids to us.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (39:25)

    Yeah, right? It's like, I gotta stop calling people kids.

    And I appreciate you do everything all ages. I think that is something I also struggle with. It's not a lot of venues in my current area. And growing up in DC, everything was intended to be all ages. It's hard to find the venue that will consistently do punk rock shows and do all ages ones.

    Gerry (39:50)

    Well, what we have here is we have a law that says if you are a restaurant, you can have an all-ages show. As long as you serve food, your venue can be all-ages. And since Mezzos has a restaurant, we can have an all-ages show. When we did the festival at Dante's, they did not serve food, so we had to do an all-ages matinee.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (40:16)

    Okay, interesting.

    Gerry (40:19)

    And then anything in which we run the show itself, like when we do the picnic or we do a whole show in which we're selling the beer through the nonprofit, like we can get a one-day liquor license as a nonprofit. We can make it an all-ages event because the nonprofit is taking the responsibility.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (40:28)

    Yeah.

    Yeah.

    Okay, fascinating. Yeah, there's one great bar, the Unicorn Bar. I'm doing a show with Big D and the Kids Table there. And they're open to doing all ages shows. very, very, the owners are super friendly, super nice. They're not exactly like lovers of punk rock, but they really enjoy DIY music. They enjoy ska and riot grrrl So if it's the right show, they'll do it. But also that's not what they...

    That's not what they were open to do. It's like there's the Blackbird Info Shop, it's a great anarcho coffee shop. They'll do a show here and there, but once again, that's not what they, that's not their mission. It's a, okay, we'll help a band here and there, but it's gotta fit our brand, our ideology, our world that we're in, which I totally respect and understand. So have you thought about opening your own venue then? Or finding your own permanence? Yeah, I know, right? Can you add to your things that you do?

    Gerry (41:40)

    You know, we now have an executive director who works part time. right, like for a long time, this was just a volunteer based organization. And this year coming up, we will have two student interns working with us from the university. Yeah.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (41:54)

    Yep.

    That's so rad.

    Gerry (42:06)

    One to help with the art gallery and sort of arts programming part of it and one as their social media marketer. And it's great, and working with the students is another part of that component of being educational in some way, shape or form.

    We have talked to places about having a multimedia art space. We talked to one person who had the old Eagles building. It had so much damage. And it just struck us that he was never going to actually do the work, but it would have been perfect. Then we talked to another place, approached us. But again, it was one of those things where a lot of talk.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (42:44)

    sure.

    Gerry (42:56)

    not a lot of follow through. Ultimately, we would love to have a bigger space and we would love to have a space of our own. But with that comes more responsibility. And when you're talking about an all volunteer board, mean, Scott, you know this, but other people don't. I I have a full-time job. Right, I a full-time job as a professor. I have...

    DCxPC Live - Scott (43:19)

    Yes, absolutely.

    you

    Gerry (43:23)

    a full-time

    writing life. I'm the author of 22 books and I teach and I travel as a writer. And then of course I have The Down Strokes, which is another full-time job running a band and thank you. And then of course Savage Mountain and yes, a lot of people, the work is spread out among a lot of people, but I'm the one.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (43:26)

    Yep. Yep, I've read one of your books. Yep.

    great punk band.

    Gerry (43:50)

    You know, co-writing the grants, I'm the one keeping the budget with the treasure, I'm the one overseeing things, I'm the one who signs every band contract. The idea of running a venue sounds really fucking exhausting. And I don't know if we would use it enough.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (44:10)

    That's what it comes down to like you would have to use it on a super regular basis or find other uses But then you have to worry about insurance property tax, whatever the mortgage rent etc is and then it's just you know doing like I I thought about it off and on I'm like I mean

    Gerry (44:14)

    Right. Exactly.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (44:29)

    I don't even know if I would have the time. I mean, it'd have to be something I do full-time. And if I do it full-time, and these things tend to operate at night, I'm like, I still have two teenage kids I actually like to see. Maybe in four five years from their way of college.

    Gerry (44:41)

    Do they actually like to see you is the question.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (44:46)

    I mean, there's a marginal amount, right? It's like, that's my only chance I get to possibly see them. Usually it's driving them somewhere like, oh, dad can drive me here. Dad can drive me there and they'll talk a lot and you know, yada yada. but yeah, it's like, I don't want to be absent every night.

    I'm already gone several nights a week. know, when I have band practice, when I get another band going again, going to at least one or two shows every week usually. Either to go check out a show or to pass out flyers for one of my shows. I still do that. So it's like, if I had a venue, I'd have to be there like all the time. Like all the time. I'm not sure I can dedicate that much of my life to something. So.

    Gerry (45:25)

    Yeah, mean, I mean, it comes down to I'm at sort of maximum capacity now.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (45:35)

    Yeah.

    Gerry (45:37)

    You know, would I like to find, you know, if somebody said, look, I have this venue and I want Savage Mountain to host a significant portion, like Savage Mountain is gonna be kind of a silent partner in this. We're gonna book all your stuff there, blah, blah, blah. You'll have cream of the crop, blah, blah, blah, but.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (46:03)

    Yeah.

    Gerry (46:04)

    It's not your responsibility. I love it. But that requires somebody to actually be like, I love what you're doing and I want to be a part of it.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (46:20)

    I mean, I think it definitely comes down to that. It's like I'd rather find a venue that I can work closely with and do the stuff when I have the time to do it. Like even making this commitment to do a once a month show.

    That's to me, you for a man as busy as I am, that's a significant commitment. And that right to find people to be supportive every month that are going to actually stick around. I mean, I haven't even done my first one yet. Right. So this whole like I'm already booking out into May and I'm like, what are those things that I could disaster? But I'm booking it, doing things, hiring things. I'm like, I'm just I'm just counting on it being great. So.

    Gerry (46:57)

    Well, I think one of

    things you have to say is that you can't base anything on the results of the first one. Right? Like we had to build the festival. Right. Right. So.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (47:12)

    No, I agree. Everything has to build and grow.

    And I recognize that, right? Like I've been doing stuff long enough to know that it's like, you don't break up your band after your first show, right? I mean, maybe you do.

    So it takes time for something to grow. If you wanna like recognize that this is a thing that's happening and build interest into it, you've done an amazing job of. And your lineup impresses me consistently, both with the smaller acts that you give a chance and the larger acts you manage to get in there. was like, you were doing something truly impressive to me.

    Gerry (47:38)

    Exactly.

    Thank you, thank you. We're really excited. You know, I never thought I would be booking DOA or the Dwarves. I never thought I would actually make it to 10 years of doing it. But it's been a phenomenal ride and it's a phenomenal ride because people support it. Like we have people who come every year and they call themselves lifers.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (48:22)

    Yeah. And.

    Gerry (48:26)

    And they come from, know, Tom Trauma comes from Michigan every year. You know, mean, people drive hundreds of miles every year to come for three days and they can't wait. And it really is like a big family reunion. And I love it. And if I didn't...

    DCxPC Live - Scott (48:27)

    That is awesome.

    And it's,

    it's...

    So it's September right? That's when it happens? August. Okay. And it's Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

    Gerry (48:57)

    August

    August. Yes,

    August 7th, 8th, 9th, 2025 this year.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (49:08)

    I can actually make that. My school doesn't start until like a week or two after that perhaps. unless I get a job. It's always possible I have a real job. Instead of just being a... Real jobs are overrated.

    Gerry (49:11)

    There you go.

    Real jobs are overrated, Scott.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (49:25)

    But I would definitely love to come out to one. And I still to this day, I still wouldn't record. I'm doing the Camp Punxsavania live compilation coming out next month. And I recorded an entire three days worth of bands at Florida Underground Fest in Florida. And I actually learned how to use Reaper and bring my laptop and I can connect to a board and do the recording. So, you know, we should definitely talk about that idea.

    Gerry (49:48)

    We actually have recordings

    of every band, multi-track recordings for every band that have just been mixed. I just listened to the downstrokes. I got the mixes maybe Friday. I just listened to the downstrokes set. My guitar sounds like a buzzsaw the entire time.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (50:08)

    Okay.

    That could be great.

    Gerry (50:16)

    Uh, you know, uh, so who knows? might be, I might be talking to you about doing, uh, a DCxPC live, uh, of the 2024 festival.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (50:27)

    I would be all in it. If you need a sponsor for next festival too, let me know.

    Gerry (50:31)

    You

    are, consider yourself in.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (50:35)

    Excellent.

    Send me the invoice. Alright. I will not say no to your money.

    Gerry (50:39)

    Working on it now. I'll say this, actually I'll say this.

    There was a documentary film made about our festival, a short form documentary, 20 minutes long. It won the best of show at the Mountain Maryland Film Festival and Viewers Choice Award. It has been entered into Sundance and Slamdance and the LA Punk Film Festival and South by Southwest and Lower East Side Film Festival.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (50:48)

    That's a rad!

    Fuck yeah!

    Gerry (51:09)

    among others. It's an exciting time.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (51:10)

    You were.

    for you my man. I am. It's an honor to work with someone like you. To know that you're out there doing this sort of stuff. It's amazing dude.

    Gerry (51:21)

    Brother, you know, I love you. I love what you do with DCxPC Live. Love that luxury teeth LP.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (51:31)

    Excellent. I'm glad you're digging it.

    Gerry (51:33)

    and

    love your some kind of Nightmare post-mortem. Me too, as you know. But mostly I love your energy and enthusiasm, right? mean, like, that's why we do it. We do it because other people care too.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (51:38)

    Thank you. Yeah, I was sad.

    Yeah, it's what I have to do. It's like not what I want to do. It's who I am. It's what I want to do until I can't do anything anymore.

    Gerry (51:56)

    Exactly.

    I get it.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (52:07)

    Yep, it's like my 16 year old will be like, what show are you going to tonight? Because she just assumes I'm going to because that's what I do. I go out and I engage with my community and that's my community, the music world.

    And you are part of that community. speaking of which, let me know if you guys can, I know you want to come up on a Sunday. That can be hard, I know, because you have work on Mondays. But if you want to come up on a Sunday, we can look for a Sunday coming up in like where there's a Monday federal holiday or something like that.

    Gerry (52:41)

    Yeah,

    it's in Kingston, New York.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (52:46)

    Yes. I don't know how far away that is per se. I'm guessing at least five hours.

    Gerry (52:50)

    We'd love to. We'd love to. know, obviously, you know, like Memorial Day doesn't work and stuff like that, but we have we have some.

    We have we have some flexibility. It's six hours from Frostburg. It's a matinee.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (53:12)

    It's a matinee. It's a matinee. So ostensibly

    the show will be over at nine and you could be home by like four in the morning. Yeah.

    Gerry (53:20)

    Yeah, which wouldn't be the first time.

    You know, I mean, the nice thing is we could find a place along the way, too.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (53:30)

    Yes.

    Gerry (53:32)

    So, see you now.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (53:33)

    All right, well, I don't wanna take up any more of your time. Gerry, I mean, I cannot wait to see more of you and see more of what you're doing and I am gonna do everything in my power to make it to this festival. I'm gonna support you, I'm gonna support Soji and all those other great bands you have going on. Give my love to Mercedes. Thank you everyone else. Okay, give my love.

    Gerry (53:52)

    Give my-

    Give my love to the fam,

    of course. And I have so much respect and love for you, Scott. You know, when we picked you up from the airport that day, I just knew you were my people, you know? And all these years later, I still feel that way. I would love to have DCxPC Live as a sponsor of the festival, of course. But more importantly, I'd love to have you...

    DCxPC Live - Scott (53:58)

    Absolutely.

    Yeah?

    Gerry (54:24)

    have you come out and hang out. That would just be a riot.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (54:26)

    Absolutely, like that's what I just meant. Like I meant it in the introduction, that just hanging out and talking with you, it's been a treat. When I told my wife I was talking with you, she's like, you're talking to Gerry I was like, yeah. She's like, we love Gerry. She's never even met you. But like, my love for you is so broad that she loves you.

    Gerry (54:35)

    Me too, brother.

    The feeling is mutual. Mercedes is like, do you feel up to a Zoom for an hour after yesterday? I'm like, yeah, I feel great. Talking to Scott's easy. So listen, brother, I love you. Have a happy new year.

    DCxPC Live - Scott (54:56)

    You feel great. Thank you.

    You too, my man. And thank you everyone else for checking out. And everyone have a great fucking New Year and great day.

  • Episode 5: Craig Mazer of Foreign Dissent

    Scott:
    Welcome everybody to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene: recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, and more.

    I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label specializing in hardcore punk, ska, and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing hardcore drums in areas like DC, Florida, and New York, and I’ve also been booking and promoting shows. I’ve had the privilege of working with a lot of amazing talent, and one of those people is our guest today, Craig Mazer. Did I pronounce that right, Craig?

    Craig:
    Nailed it.

    Scott:
    Excellent. Craig is a longtime champion of the DIY punk scene who has been showing his support locally with Foreign Dissent in Orlando, Florida since 2014. Craig has been running this unique international showcase that features bands from around the world as they make their way to The Fest in Gainesville.

    Foreign Dissent specifically highlights international acts without local support bands, giving those touring musicians an additional platform during their time in the United States. What started as Craig's vision to support international bands has grown into something truly special.

    Over the last decade, Foreign Dissent has not only provided these bands with additional performance opportunities, but it has also given music lovers unprecedented access to international acts they may have never discovered otherwise. The showcase has been so successful that similar events have sprouted across Florida, creating an informal pre-Fest tour circuit for international bands.

    As Craig prepares for Foreign Dissent's 10th anniversary in 2025, we're excited to dive into his punk rock journey and learn what inspired him to create this vital platform for international punk music.

    Take a breath, Scott.

    Hey, Craig.

    Craig:
    Dude, that was impressive. Maybe just end it there and we'll call this a win. At least this way I can't say anything stupid. That was great.

    Scott:
    Done. That's it. I advertise it, and it’s over.

    Thank you. So you've been doing this since 2014. I definitely went to several of your Foreign Dissent shows prior to 2019. 2019 was the first time I ever managed to get up to Fest. I know Fest is great, but it's a distance. Two days off of work, time, money, et cetera. Married with two kids, I could never quite swing it.

    But you always provided me a way to enjoy Fest without going to Fest. Once I started going to Fest, I was like, well, I can't go out to Foreign Dissent this week. I'm already going to be gone for four days. That’s untenable. So I stopped going to your events because I was now going to Fest. I just couldn’t wrap it all. It was too much.

    Craig:
    It's worked against me. Your success is my loss. No, that’s great. If I had to pick between three days of The Fest in Gainesville and one night of Foreign Dissent in Orlando, I’d go to The Fest.

    Scott:
    I appreciate the humility. Do you ever go to Fest yourself?

    Craig:
    I do both. Since Fest 7, I've been to every Fest except Fest 8 because a friend decided to have his wedding that I had to be in. I learned going to Fest 7 how much I loved it, and then the very next year I wasn’t able to go. But since then, we’ve gone every year.

    Scott:
    That friend, you still talk to that friend?

    Craig:
    He died. Real talk. He would be laughing so hard if he could be listening to this and how this just went. He’d find that hilarious. So no, RIP Brett. Best dude ever. Love that guy.

    Scott:
    Oh, I’m sorry. God, I’m an asshole now.

    Craig:
    Thank you.

    Scott:
    My condolences. I appreciate that. When I was in touring bands, I’ve had to put weddings in the tour block before. I toured from DC and we went through New England, and we all had to take a day off on a Saturday or Sunday so I could go to my friend’s wedding in New Haven, Connecticut. I was like, okay everybody, you go hang out in the city. I’m going to a wedding. And they were like, really? I was like, yeah, this is the wedding I can’t miss. You know there are weddings where you can go, meh. No, I had to go to that one.

    Craig:
    If I could have gotten out of this one, I would have, but that was not an option.

    Scott:
    Totally understand.

    Before we dig into Foreign Dissent, you have a long pedigree. If I recall from our conversation during Florida Underground Fest at Will’s Pub, you talked about doing a zine. I think it might have been called Impact or something.

    Craig:
    Yeah, I did Impact Press for 10 years. My journey as a non-musician being connected to punk started when I was a kid and fell in love with punk rock. I also grew up being bullied a lot, so punk rock was an escape.

    When I got to college, it felt like escaping that bullying from grade school. I found my people, who were other kids discovering punk rock together. We were 18 or 19 years old. In 1993, we realized that the records and CDs we were paying 10 or 12 bucks for at the record stores in Orlando, we could get at wholesale prices if we started a record mail order.

    We could get CDs for $6.75. I remember that very specifically. That was huge. We signed up to be a distributor through Mordam Records, which gave us access to Alternative Tentacles, Kill Rock Stars, Lookout Records, which was the big one for us. We were all huge into Screeching Weasel and that kind of stuff back then.

    We started this record mail order, which was basically inviting kids over to our apartment down the street from the University of Central Florida. We had a loft and a record player, and you could come listen to the records before you bought them. We’d go out to shows and sell records out of boxes.

    Then we decided to start advertising it, so we were putting ads in Maximum Rocknroll. We had a mailing list of 800 people at the height of what was called Inbred Records. We put out one and a half releases. The one release was a band called The Leftovers out of Jupiter, Florida. The vocalist was pretty whiny sounding, but they had a real Operation Ivy sound to them. We put out a 7-inch, and they broke up right before the 7-inch came out. You know how this goes.

    Scott:
    I’ve experienced that, trust me.

    Craig:
    Anyone who has put out records knows it’s like the jinx. You’re so stoked. You put all this effort and months of work into it, and for us, we were scraping pennies together to be able to do it. Then they broke up.

    The half release was through Beach Recordings out in California, which was putting out a bunch of ska back then. If I remember correctly, the guy who ran it was closely connected with Skankin’ Pickle and those guys. I don’t even remember how we connected, but he wanted to do a split comp.

    We got tracks in 1994, I think, from Less Than Jake, Blue Meanies, Holsteins, which was an amazing Orlando ska band. But the dude ghosted us for so long that we no longer had the money we had committed. We had already sent him the DATs. He had the recordings. When he contacted us three or four months later and asked where the 500 bucks was, we were like, dude, we’re out.

    We never knew what actually happened because he was pissed. Then someone found the CD in a record store, and he must have already pressed it before we bounced because it said Inbred Records on the actual CD.

    Scott:
    Wow. So he had already pressed it and came to you for the money, and then you said, you waited too long and we don’t know how to save money because we’re kids.

    Craig:
    We had been trying to reach him. We didn’t have money. It was my buddy who really fronted it, and by then that money was gone.

    Scott:
    I get that. I’ve had bands tell me before, because I generally cover the recording costs. You don’t know how a live recording is going to go, and Josh gives me really great rates, so I do the mixing and mastering to maintain a consistency of sound because people often question live albums.

    Usually I can send the band a rough mix, and I want them to say yay or nay. If they say nay, I’m out a little bit of money, and I don’t stress it. But if they say yay and I go through the full process to get it mastered, then I usually say, okay, I need you to buy X number of copies. Buying them at cost is basically your royalty. You don’t have the $1,500 to press 100 records, but if you give me $300 or $400 spread out over payments, then you’ve got it.

    One band said, could you wait? We don’t really have the money right now. I was like, yeah, it’s fine. Then I came back three months later and they were like, no, we went into the studio, so we don’t have any money to do this now. I was like, but you asked me to wait, and I’ve already spent hundreds of dollars. I know it’s only hundreds, but my budget is razor thin, so hundreds is hundreds to me. That tripled my loss compared to if they had said no earlier.

    So when you were buying stuff wholesale, did you have to buy like 50 or 100 copies? You couldn’t just buy one at $6.75 and claim you were wholesaling it, right?

    Craig:
    This was the beauty, Scott. There were no limits. You could buy one Green Day 7-inch from Lookout. That’s why when we realized we could do this, we were like, why wouldn’t we do this? You just had to get approved.

    This was 30 years ago, so I’m sure everything is different now. But back then, the reason I’ve always been active in music in one way or another is because I’m pretty driven. In my regular job, I want to know what the next steps are. What’s our action item? How are we going to get this done? That’s how I’ve always been, whether it’s a side project or my job.

    With the record thing, we would see ads in Maximum Rocknroll about Mordam being a distributor. We just called them and asked what it took. Maybe we had to spend 50 or 100 bucks, but you did not have to take multiples of anything.

    Scott:
    So you could spend 100 bucks across multiple artists. It’s almost like you and your buddies just found a way to buy records at half cost. You could just keep them for yourselves if you wanted to.

    Craig:
    That was the main reason for it. We wanted to get records cheaper for ourselves because we were going nuts buying records. It was that time for all of us where the scene was blossoming. Early ’90s, there was a lot of cool stuff. For me, it was a time of discovery.

    Scott:
    I was 16 in ’92, so we were in the same kind of moment. I was in Northern Virginia, Fairfax, and all I could do was go to the record stores. Especially the Dischord records where they said, pay no more than this on the back. I was like, screw you, Kemp Mill Records. It says I don’t have to pay this much, and I’m going to go to Record Convergence in Fairfax where they don’t rip me off and actually follow what Ian says to do.

    Craig:
    You could have come to the Inbred Records house in Orlando, Florida, and we would not have ripped you off. We were selling barely above markup just to cover any incidental costs. It was an awesome time. We had a ton of fun, and it gave me exposure to a ton of music.

    At the same time, I started getting into publishing and writing, which ended up leading to Impact Press.

    Scott:
    Did you ever run a punk rock blog doing reviews or a website when the internet came around?

    Craig:
    Before Impact, I was writing record reviews at UCF for the Central Florida Future, which was the campus newspaper.

    One of the big moments in my life was when Central Florida Future decided to run advertising for an anti-abortion organization and a Holocaust denial organization in the same issue. I said, “Fuck this.” I remember the day so clearly. Back then, on the campus at UCF, you could actually make local phone calls from hallway phones.

    I called the Central Florida Future office and asked how this happened. I rounded up as many writers from the Future as I could. We got together and signed a petition. That afternoon, we went up to the president’s office. I think it was Dr. Hitt’s first or second year as president of UCF. He ended up being there for about 25 years and really changed UCF.

    It was me and my buddy Justin. Justin probably had green hair down to his shoulders. We were little snotty punks. The secretary told us to wait one minute, then said he would see us. The two of us sat down in this massive conference room with the president of UCF and asked why the UCF paper was running this.

    They took a lot of shit because they took a stand, and it was an independent paper. The Orlando Sentinel ended up doing an editorial asking if UCF was taking a stand against an independent newspaper. It became a whole thing. We had news media out that night for our staff meeting where we had a petition signed. It ultimately led me to starting a competitor newspaper.

    Me and four other friends decided to start a newspaper at UCF that lasted about a year and a half. It was really hard to do.

    Scott:
    Dude, you have DIY punk rock in your blood. You started your own distro, your own label, your own newspaper. You are the epitome of “yes.” We haven’t even gotten into what you’re doing now.

    Craig:
    It’s wild. Leading up to this, I know I’ve said a lot about feeling like I don’t deserve to be on here. It’s weird. I’m 51 now, and I can look back at my body of work and go, shit, yeah, I did some shit. Be proud of that. At the same time, I have this feeling that I’m not really deserving.

    On paper, I guess I did some stuff. It’s not like anyone showed me what being DIY meant other than punk rock. Those first couple of years at UCF were about finding freedom from the identity I had in grade school and developing this idea of wanting to be connected to a community, which is what this podcast is about.

    There was never money to be made. UCF Imprint ended in 1995. I left it before it ended because I had graduated UCF, and I didn’t want to still be involved in a UCF newspaper if I wasn’t a student anymore.

    Right away, I was like, I need to do something else. Something always drove me. I wanted to stay connected to music. Even though Impact Press was mostly a political magazine, all my ads were record labels. In order to make it even financially possible to publish the magazine, we had a review section called Quickies. It was in six-point font, maybe seven or eight pages out of issues that were around 48 pages.

    That’s how I could afford to do it. I never made money doing Impact. I 100% lost money, but there were several years where it at least broke even, which was cool. I was doing 10,000 copies. They were all free and distributed all over the United States, totally DIY.

    I started it in 1996. The internet was usable, but it wasn’t great yet. I didn’t have a website for the magazine until 1998, and I built that myself by going to a website I liked, looking at the source code, copying it, and changing it. I taught myself HTML, and funny enough, I ended up in that space as a career.

    From 1993 until 2006, I could go to any show in Orlando for free because I had connections at all these labels through writing reviews, running the newspaper, and then doing Impact.

    Scott:
    Sure.

    Craig:
    I’m happy to talk about Scheister and booking a national tour for them in 1997.

    Scott:
    So you’ve done show booking, just for Scheister or other bands too?

    Craig:
    Mostly for Scheister. I was a superfan of Scheister back in ’95. I was dating a girl who was good friends with them, and that’s how I met them. I became best friends with their lead singer and guitarist, and still am to this day.

    I’ve always had that drive to get shit done. If you’re in a band and you have a fan or someone who wants to help and genuinely can, you’re going to be like, yes, please.

    I used Book Your Own Fuckin’ Life to call places. I was making phone calls. I don’t think I was emailing much. Maybe a little. By ’95 I had email, but it was a lot of phone calls. Mike from Scheister still has the binder we made. I think it was about 40 dates. They went all the way over to North Dakota. That was my first time booking a tour. I think I did two tours for them, a national tour and a regional tour.

    Then I didn’t book tours again until 2012. Big difference.

    Scott:
    Big difference. I did runs in the ’90s and a bunch of runs in the 2000s. I remember how things changed. I went from making phone calls to emails to instant messenger to MySpace messages. The last tour I did with Colin Dead Room, I was on Instagram and Facebook.

    It’s so much easier than in the ’90s when I had to cold call places and write bands. Book Your Own Fuckin’ Life is basically what allowed that to even happen because it showed you people who were interested in helping. How would I have known who in Boston wanted to help me without that?

    Craig:
    We wouldn’t have been able to do it. We were listed as a crash pad. We had many bands stay at that same Inbred Records house. We became friends with Tilt. They stayed with us a couple of times.

    Scott:
    I played with Cinder’s other band, Retching Red, a couple of times. We did a split 7-inch with them.

    Craig:
    They were amazing people. I got to meet a hero of mine, Pete Rypins from Crimpshrine, because he was playing in Tilt one of the times they came through Orlando.

    Book Your Own Fuckin’ Life helped all those connections happen. It made me feel like I had a place as a person who, leaving high school, didn’t know that was possible. That has continued over the years, finding ways to stay connected to the community.

    Scott:
    That sounds like a great moment. Connected community. Let’s move into Foreign Dissent.

    It’s 2014. That’s your first one, right? What was the impetus for this idea of creating a no-local-support, all-international-band showcase on a Monday night? Like, I’m going to do this amazing thing. It could be a Monday night with bands people have never heard of and no local support. This will be great. What the fuck?

    Craig:
    It’s pretty stupid, right?

    I’ll give a little backstory. In 2012, I booked a 16- or 20-date run for The New Lows, which was a band with members of Scheister. As you probably know, when you book a tour, any band involved in helping you with a date in their town is 100% going to hit you up for a date in your town when they come through.

    Over the next two years, I was just booking shows. I had never really booked local shows before then, but because of this 2012 tour, and then in 2013 I booked a short run for a Philly band called X Friends, former members of Plow United. That came about because the dude from Plow United helped me out with a New Lows date in Philly. I annoyed him so much to get that date that he came to me and said, you annoyed me so thoroughly to get this date, I bet you’d do a great job booking a tour for us.

    It’s hilarious that the thing that annoyed the shit out of him was also something he saw as valuable.

    So Will’s Pub knew about me as a promoter in town. I wasn’t really trying to take on things I didn’t have to, but they hit me up one day in the summer of 2014 and said, hey, there’s this band called Laura Palmer. Would you be interested in promoting a show for them? They’re heading to Fest.

    I thought it sounded like a singer-songwriter thing and not really my thing, but I decided to listen anyway. It was a three-piece out of Australia. Their name was a play on Twin Peaks. I listened and thought, holy shit, this band is incredible. I wanted to book them.

    I wish I could remember what in my brain said, you should do all foreign bands. But I thought of the name immediately. I thought of the poster design immediately. I had the whole idea.

    I went to the Fest website and started listening to all the international bands. By July, everything had been confirmed. These days I start things way earlier than July. I picked bands I liked and contacted them. “Hey, would you want to play this Monday?”

    I remember talking to someone prominent in the Orlando music community about the idea. He was like, no local support? No. Do not. You have to have local support. I said, no, that ruins the whole idea of the show. I can’t have local support.

    That stuck with me. He wasn’t wrong. That first year, I think there were about 50 people there. It is tough because it’s on a Monday. But I built that lineup in 2014 because I thought it was cool. Did I think it was super risky and could bomb? Yeah.

    Was it a success that year? I don’t know. The bands thought it was. The difference between what a promoter thinks is a success and what a band thinks is a success, in my experience, can be really far apart. My expectation for myself is that if it’s not a sellout, it’s not a success. Foreign Dissent has never sold out. But if I can pay bands $300 each, they’re like, holy shit. This is our first time in the U.S., this is our first show in the U.S., and you just gave us $300. Or you brought us in and people were singing our songs. We didn’t know anyone knew who we were.

    That’s how it happened. It was a wacky idea that I really liked.

    Scott:
    I think it’s been amazing, and you’ve been doing it consistently. I’ve seen on some of your flyers that you have up to eight bands.

    Craig:
    Yeah, I do. Maybe to the chagrin of people who want to go home. It’s tightly run. Sets are 20 or 25 minutes. There’s a 10-minute turnover because we have a full backline. You can see four bands in two or three hours. You can see a lot in a short amount of time.

    Eight bands is what I prefer to have. It is a less stable show because of the distance folks are traveling and the kinds of plans they need to make. Lineups change pretty much every year. This past year, Foreign Dissent 9, was the first time I announced the lineup and it did not change by the time the show happened.

    Scott:
    Speaking of change, I recall that you had a band from Austria that twice had some problems getting over here. There were issues with the whole band one time, and then maybe the drummer.

    Craig:
    Austria, not Australia. Easily mistaken, as they have many of the same letters.

    ASTPAI from Austria. It would have been Foreign Dissent 2. I had connected with ASTPAI about playing, and they were all stoked. Then I got a message from Zock, the lead singer and guitarist. They were at the airport. It was a photo of two of the band members with sad faces. He said they had flown from Austria to Germany for their connection, and the plane was broken.

    He said he thought he could find a flight for just himself that would get him to Orlando by 9 p.m. and maybe he could get to the show in time to do a solo set. He totally did. He flew in, hurried to Will’s Pub, and did a solo set. It was incredible.

    Two or three years later, by Foreign Dissent 4, I had never had a repeat band. I had made an unspoken rule in my head that I wouldn’t have repeats. Why repeat bands? Let’s have it be new all the time.

    ASTPAI was one of my girlfriend’s favorite bands. Zock hit me up and said ASTPAI was coming back to Fest and wanted to do it right this time. I talked to Stacey about it and said, I don’t know, repeat band. She said, no, it was not the same band last time. It was just Zock.

    So Zock flew in ahead of the rest of the band with his girlfriend. They got in late, and we had become friends at that point, so I picked up food for them. They came over to our apartment after their flight, ate some food, and Zock said, hey Craig, there’s something I need to tell you. I didn’t want to tell you ahead of time because I didn’t want to freak you out, but our drummer has a double ear infection and the doctor told him he can’t fly.

    He said, don’t worry, I’m going to play drums. I was like, you’re the lead singer and lead guitarist. He said, yeah, I play drums. The rest of the band was getting in the next day, which was the day of Foreign Dissent. He said they were going to do a practice in the hotel room. I said, a practice? You don’t have drums. He said he’d just have sticks and practice on the bed.

    We met for lunch the next day, and his band members were a little sketchy about it, especially the rhythm guitarist, who now had to figure out what to play. He wasn’t prepared to take on the lead parts.

    But they killed it. Zock, usually the lead singer and lead guitarist, played drums and sang. For the first and only time in the history of ASTPAI, they were a three-piece with Zock on drums. By the next day, they had found someone to jump in on guitar, so they ended up being a four-piece for Fest and the other runs.

    I love the stories with ASTPAI. They’re not with us anymore. They broke up. But Zock has a new band now called Dirty Talons, and hopefully they can make it through for Foreign Dissent, maybe even this year.

    Scott:
    That’s super rad. As a drummer, I appreciate the fact that they didn’t find an actual drummer, but they were able to find a guitarist instead, because it’s always hard to find a drummer.

    Craig:
    Zock is a serious drummer. He was the drummer for Petrol Girls, a UK band that kind of blew up. They were awesome and had a really successful run. I think they’re fully broken up now, which is a bummer because I always wanted them for Foreign Dissent. I did get to see them in Paris in 2017, and they were sick.

    Scott:
    That reminds me of Florida Underground Fest where 430 Steps’ drummer hurt his shoulder. Gustavo had to leave guitar and go back to playing drums. When I first saw 430 Steps in 2016 or something, he was the drummer, so he’s a super accomplished drummer. But he hadn’t been playing drums in the band for three years, and they had written so many new songs he had never played on. All of a sudden, I was like, that’s got to be rough. But he pulled it off. They always pull it off.

    Craig:
    That kind of stuff blows my mind and reminds me how special it is. Musicians share the gift of music with us. Here is a guy who figured out how to pull it off for the people coming to Foreign Dissent. They could have canceled. That would have been easy enough. But no, they figured it out and killed it. Everyone had a blast and got something super special that they had never seen before and will never see again.

    Scott:
    That’s kind of the impetus of my whole live record thing. That moment is never going to happen again. That song will never be played exactly that same way ever again. This moment is it.

    You mentioned backlining. You’re one person. I do a lot of shows on my own, but I always have to find people to help. I need someone to work the door because of the way the venue is set up. Sometimes I have to find sound people. I have to get people to help with backline. I have my own drums, so I often use my own drums because I rely on myself and I trust that I’m going to bring them.

    How do you handle making sure you have a proper backline? Will’s has a staff, but who helps you manage this? How do you find that help? Did you know how much you were taking on? Because when bands come from overseas, like when I toured Europe, all I brought were my cymbals, snare drum, sticks, and maybe my bass pedal. Everything else was provided.

    Craig:
    I had no idea I was going to need a backline. I don’t remember who asked, “Are you going to have a backline?” I was like, what’s a backline? I’m not a musician.

    This part of doing the event over the years has always been the struggle for me. Every now and then, one of the foreign bands will ask what gear we’re going to have or what guitar amp is going to be on stage. I haven’t figured that out yet. I don’t always have the same people loaning me gear.

    People loaning me gear is huge. I couldn’t do this without that. Especially the drum kit, which I think is the hardest thing to come by. For years, it has been Mickey McAleck, an Orlando staple. He’s been in a million bands, most recently Narkosi, a grindcore band here in town. He’s an absolute sweetheart. I don’t know what I’d do without him.

    Guitar and bass amps, I know enough people where I can find those. More recently, I connected with Mary, who is one of the people who runs Orlando Girls Rock Camp and is also in the band Double Bubble. They have amassed so much gear for Orlando Girls Rock Camp that this year I might use their gear for the whole backline except drums, just to simplify things.

    Otherwise, it’s this buddy of mine who says the only reason he still keeps his guitar rig is for Foreign Dissent. He doesn’t play anymore, but he says it’ll always be there for me. That’s a sweetheart.

    Scott:
    Do you ever have backups? I say that because my old DC band did a reunion show in January 2023 in DC and we played with Submachine from Pittsburgh. Submachine said everyone could borrow their gear. Submachine has been a band for about 30 years, so their gear is really old. The first band got up and everything sounded great. Then my band got up to play second, and my guitarist went to put the jack into the back of the cabinet from his head, and the jack plug fell into the cabinet. We looked around and asked if anyone brought a backup cabinet. No one had.

    Craig:
    Until this past year, Foreign Dissent 9, there was never a backup plan. One year, Mike’s guitar cabinet died. I don’t know if it died before the show was over or just didn’t work after the show, but it wasn’t working once he got it back.

    This year, Mary brought two guitar amps. I asked her for one because I already had someone else bringing one. She said they were small and figured why not bring both. She put them both on stage so someone could use whichever one they liked more.

    Now with this new access and kindness from Mary, I’ll probably ask for two bass rigs and three guitar rigs just in case. Drums, if something breaks, that’s the way it goes.

    Scott:
    When I do shows, I often offer mine, but I also tell people if one of the bands wants to bring theirs, I’ll bring mine as a backup. That way we have something. I did a festival once in Sanford where I was borrowing someone’s rig, and two songs in, their bass drum head broke. I was like, I guess I’m playing without a bass drum for the rest of the set. It’s not an easily changeable thing.

    I’ve seen enough of these things happen in my 30 years of doing this that I’ve become like, what’s my backup plan? What am I going to do when XYZ happens?

    Craig:
    Foreign Dissent over the years could have gone terribly if a couple rigs went down. I did not have a backup plan. I don’t know if there were people at the show who could run and get other gear to salvage the show, but knock on wood, it’s never been a thing. Maybe that’s just the good vibes of that night. There is a special energy when you have people who have traveled so far.

    Scott:
    It’s the beautiful community you have there.

    You mentioned the posters. They’re always very unique. Do you have one graphic artist you use every time, or do you do them yourself?

    Craig:
    I do not do them myself. I do some of the graphics throughout the year, but not the poster art. From year one through year eight, it was the same person, my buddy Joe Williams. He’s an amazing graphic artist, graphic designer, and creative director. He helped Foreign Dissent create an identity that made it seem more important than maybe I felt it was.

    Having it look like a serious thing was important to me. Early on, I had an idea for the first poster with parachutes and the flag of each country. I liked the double meaning of the word dissent and descent. Two different spellings, but the parachutes captured that. Joe created that based on my guidance.

    Years two through eight, he did whatever he wanted. For several of those years, he came up with a monster character featured in the posters. This past year, he was going through some stuff and decided to step away, so I got Christian from Talk Me Off. They’re based out of Richmond. Christian did an awesome job this year.

    I’m hoping Joe will jump back in for the 10-year anniversary. I reached out to him because I think it would be really great to have his touch return for such an important year.

    Scott:
    Finding graphic artists has always been one of my struggles. I have a very talented friend who played bass in the band I was recently in, but he has a full-time job and does art for himself. If I do two or three shows a month, he can’t possibly do all that. The stuff he makes is so creative and takes so much time. It would be an incredible burden to ask him to do three of these at the friend rate.

    So I’ve had to start reaching out and finding other people to work with because my Canva skills are only so good.

    Craig:
    Back when I was booking more shows from 2013 to 2016, besides Foreign Dissent, I did those flyers myself. They were hack jobs. I’d see a cool mural while in Tampa, take a photo of it, and turn that into my poster. I’d steal old movie poster art from monster movies that I found online and repurpose it. Super DIY.

    I’m dangerous enough. I published a magazine, and in those years I was a one-stop shop. I did everything to lay it out, so I’m a little bit good at graphic design. I just don’t have the artist eye that true graphic artists have. I’ve made do in the past, but when it comes to the official Foreign Dissent poster, the logo, and sticker art, I want someone who’s a pro.

    Scott:
    They know colors that mix, whereas I have no idea. I can cut and paste and put things together and go, all right, that looks clear. Then I get feedback that says there’s way too much text. I’m like, but the text is needed. I don’t know how to fix that.

    Craig:
    That’s been my struggle too. I’ll ask artists, can you fit this too? They’re like, do you really need it?

    Scott:
    The show my buddy Ralph just did for me is my first Sunday matinee at a place called Snapper Magee’s in Kingston. I gave him the info and told him I needed to add a fifth band. He changed it, and I could see how it changed the appearance of the flyer. Then I said I had added a post-show DJ, and he had to go back and make another change.

    At one point, it had the band names, a description of their sound, and where they were from. Then it got rid of the sound description and just had where they were from. Now it doesn’t have where they’re from at all because he had to fit the extra artists. To me, it seems like an easy change. Add two more words. How hard can that be? But I know it’s not.

    Craig:
    It is tough. You need a relationship with an artist where they’re cool with making changes. With Foreign Dissent, my lineup never stayed the same throughout, except this past year. I was always going back to Joe like, hey, I’m so sorry, this band dropped, and I’m adding this band. Do you mind switching it out? But it’s worth it.

    Scott:
    You can change it on social media and post the new ones. But I’ve seen that you make posters and hand out flyers. You’re like me. You’re so old school that you still hand out paper flyers at shows.

    Craig:
    I do. I think it’s critical, and I think it’s going to become new school again. I feel like there’s an energy for that kind of interaction around music connection. I don’t know how to do it any other way. I would feel like a failure if I didn’t flyer.

    With posters, once the thing changes, I might not go out and change a poster.

    Scott:
    Once I’ve printed 11x17 posters, 8.5x11 flyers, and handbills, and I’ve spent all this money, I can’t go back and re-spend the money to reprint everything.

    But I agree with you. I’ve noticed that people are like, what are you doing? I’m like, I’m handing out paper flyers. Nobody does that anymore. People are like, this guy takes it seriously.

    I think you show that same level of, yeah, this may be one show, but it’s my show. It’s the show I do every year, and I’m going to do everything in my power. I’m going to go to shows. I’m going to pass out stuff. I’m going to do this. That’s probably why it’s successful. You’re putting in the legwork. You’re not just making a social media post and saying, here’s eight bands, come out.

    Craig:
    Now that I focus only on Foreign Dissent, it occupies my brain pretty much 11 months a year. Flyering and hanging up posters is part of how I channel the energy and passion I have for the event. Social media is only so useful.

    As I get older, and there are younger generations who I want to be into this, I don’t know if I’m always in the right spaces to connect with them. But if I’m at the shows they’re at and I put a flyer in their hand, maybe they’ll think, this guy with the gray beard is cool enough for me to check out whatever he just handed me.

    Scott:
    Your shows are always at Will’s Pub, right?

    Craig:
    Always. I’ll never do it anywhere else.

    Scott:
    So you can flyer there, Grumpy’s, Lou’s, The Spot, the Conduit, and house shows. There’s a vibrant music community in Orlando.

    Craig:
    Big time. I don’t know how many hundreds of flyers I gave out this past year. Maybe 500 or 600. I go to shows anyway, so as it gets within two months of Foreign Dissent, I’m that guy at the door.

    Scott:
    Do you stand at the door as people come in and hand out flyers?

    Craig:
    At the end of the show, I’ll stand at the door as people leave.

    Scott:
    I’ve always debated that. Some people leave before the end of the show, so if I wait until the end, I miss them. If I do it at the beginning, I can’t get them all because people come in late. There’s this whole question of how to get the spread. I’ll leave some on bars and tables, and I love when I hand someone one and they say they already got one.

    I’ve never quite decided what the right formula is.

    Craig:
    I’m awkward about it, so I prefer the end of the show, even if that means losing people who left early. I try to hit shows where the headliner is the main draw and attendance will be high, hopefully sold out. When the band says, this is our last song, I go stand at the exit and hope I’m hitting everyone.

    I love when someone gets a flyer and says, oh, Foreign Dissent, I love this event.

    The thing with Foreign Dissent is that I wish I had more of an opportunity to interact. If someone gets the flyer and doesn’t really look at it, they might discard it and not understand that these are all bands from other countries. When I get the chance to explain in 10 seconds what it is, people are like, what? That sounds crazy. That’s cool.

    Scott:
    One thing, and please correct me if I’m wrong, I feel like Foreign Dissent has spread throughout other parts of Florida. They’re not calling it Foreign Dissent, so it’s not inherently connected to you, but you do yours on Monday and Fest starts on Friday. Sometimes there are pre-Fest shows. I used to do pre-Fest shows at Lou’s for bands touring through, and they always stressed me out because I was already going to be gone for three days. But friends would ask, so I’d make it work.

    Craig:
    What I realized early on doing Foreign Dissent is that if these bands play on a Monday, they’re asking what they’re going to do Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday before they get to Gainesville. So I started gathering contacts.

    I can now help someone book a tour from Boston down to Florida and all through Florida. For bands after Foreign Dissent, the run is usually Foreign Dissent, then Vero, where Joe has dubbed his show International Invasion. His show is almost a clone of Foreign Dissent, which I’m grateful for.

    Then after Joe’s show on Tuesday, they go to Chewy’s show in Tampa or St. Pete on Wednesday. Then Thursday, they play Charlie’s show in St. Augustine. Then they go to Gainesville.

    For me, especially now, I’ll reach out to bands I want to play Foreign Dissent, but the first key is that they have to get added to Fest. As you know, that’s not always easy. They need some kind of connection or in. They also need to know if they can play other shows. I can now tell them I have contacts and can at least help them get a run in Florida, or elsewhere if they want.

    Loyal Cheaters, who played this last time, I think did about 20 shows around Fest. I don’t know how many were because of my contacts, but probably quite a few. Sharing those contacts is something I really love. As someone who has booked tours before, I know that’s gold. That’s currency.

    Scott:
    It’s interesting you mention contacts. Twenty years ago, I had an Excel spreadsheet of venues and bands and people I worked with. I used to share it all the time. Then in 2008 I moved to Florida, took a couple years off, and I don’t know what happened to the spreadsheet. It’s gone. It was before Google Sheets, so it was saved to a hard drive on a laptop I no longer have.

    Over the last month, I’ve been on winter break, and I exported everyone I follow from Instagram. I started clicking on every single one and making a spreadsheet of bands, venues, promoters, booking agents, podcasts, record stores, and record labels. I’ll be happy to share that with anyone who wants it once I’ve got it fully completed.

    It feels good because you can’t remember everything. Instagram and Facebook are not easily searchable, and that seems to be the easiest way for people to communicate now. Bands don’t even always have websites anymore. Maybe they have Bandcamp. How do you keep track of all that? Do you have a spreadsheet?

    Craig:
    I have a Google Doc. It’s broken up into a Florida section, an East Coast run north to south, and then other places. I’ll see someone post in the Fest Friends group on Facebook saying they can help with a show in Cincinnati, or a band saying they need dates in certain cities. I’ll see people comment that they can help, and I’ll add them to my list.

    It’s not fully vetted. Some of these contacts might not even do shows anymore. I don’t regularly check in on them. It’s a service I provide with a lot of asterisks. I don’t know if any of this will still help you, but some of it will for sure.

    Scott:
    When Colin Dead went on their first tour, we had a venue that burned down or something, and I needed a last-minute one. You responded with people in different areas, and I was like, thank you Craig.

    Craig:
    I’ll do that anytime I see a band post about it. This is the thing that fills my heart and makes me feel like I’m contributing to a community that has given me so much. I love helping out.

    Foreign Dissent is so much that. After I do Foreign Dissent, I’m going to Fest. I see all these bands walking around multiple times, and it feels like we’ve all fallen in love with each other. There’s so much joy and appreciation. For me, that’s everything.

    Scott:
    That gets to the heart of it. You mentioned how you found your community. I remember something very similar. I was in high school in ’92, and I was a very shy, awkward person. People would be shocked to hear me say that now, but the punk rock community allowed me to be my true self, let go, and not be afraid of being who I am. I’ve always come back to punk rock community because it’s what we do.

    What you’re doing is literally taking that community and providing space for it. That’s why I’ve always been so impressed by it and why I wanted you on here. You are fostering the community that fostered you.

    Craig:
    100%. From 1985, when this kid at school played me “I Saw Your Mommy” by Suicidal Tendencies. I think he thought it would scare me. This wasn’t a kid who was my friend. I biked to the record store that weekend and bought that first Suicidal cassette. That was seventh grade for me.

    That was the birth of the person I would really become starting in college. In middle school and high school, there was too much bullying for me to embrace the person I was. I was afraid. I felt so small.

    Hearing Descendents in ninth grade, the Enjoy! record, was the next one. Then my first year of college, hearing My Brain Hurts by Screeching Weasel in spring 1992. I remember the people. Chance is the kid who played me Suicidal. Evar is my buddy who played me Descendents. Jason is the guy who played me Screeching Weasel. Those three moments set me up for who I became in specific ways that broadened what I saw punk rock to be.

    Scott:
    I think a lot of us have those specific things. There was a guy I worked with at Roy Rogers. I was buying a bunch of Anthrax tapes from him, and he threw in some Ramones. I was like, huh, this is odd.

    I had gotten a Suicidal Tendencies album for Christmas, Art of Rebellion, but I already had it. I took it to Kemp Mill Music, and the guy was like, try this Circle Jerks Gig record. That was my very first punk rock thing. Then I remember buying Black Flag’s First Four Years at Record Convergence. Those were my first things: Ramones, Black Flag, Circle Jerks. Then Megadeth covered “Anarchy in the UK,” so I had to buy the Sex Pistols album.

    Craig:
    That’s a pretty good core foundation of punk rock.

    There was this dude in ninth grade named Aaron who was the most entrepreneurial person I knew. For some reason, he had every cool punk thing. Uniform Choice, Agnostic Front, Cro-Mags, DRI, all of these important punk records. He had a catalog you could go through at school, and he would dub the cassette and photocopy the liner notes and sell them. You’d pay maybe three or five bucks.

    That’s how I learned about Misfits. I got Walk Among Us and Legacy of Brutality from him. I got Uniform Choice and Agnostic Front. All these bands I don’t think I would have discovered on my own. He was my dealer. He was the pusher man at school for the drug I wanted.

    Scott:
    That’s brilliant that he was selling them. Whenever I met a buddy, I would have them come over to my house and bring all their tapes. I would have blank ones and copy everything.

    You mentioned the Misfits. There was this dub going around Northern Virginia that everyone had. Everyone had the exact same mixtape of random Misfits songs. There was one song where the volume obviously got turned up while recording it. I thought that’s how the song was recorded. Then one day I finally heard it on CD and realized that wasn’t how it was supposed to sound. But every tape was the same. My buddy John had it, my buddy Dan had it, Keith had it, Matt had it. We all had the same tape.

    Craig:
    I love that. To have that moment where you’re like, wait, this isn’t how it’s supposed to be.

    Scott:
    There was a whole community of us who just thought that’s how the song was.

    Craig:
    I wonder how many of those cassettes I listened to were like that because I don’t think I ever went and found another version of some of them.

    Scott:
    This has been an absolute pleasure. I don’t want to take up any more of your time on a Friday. I’m sure we could talk for another 30 or 40 minutes, but I’m really excited for what you’re doing.

    When do you think you’re going to have the lineup for the next Foreign Dissent?

    Craig:
    I’ve been reaching out to bands I really want to play and having them start to look into whether they can do the trip, reach out to Fest, and work some angles. Fest starts to confirm bands this month.

    One of the beautiful things that happened after maybe three years of doing Foreign Dissent is that Tony, who runs Fest, has been really tolerant of me treating Foreign Dissent like it’s the most important thing in the world. He always gives me the list of foreign bands in advance, which is amazing. But now when he confirms foreign bands for Fest, he tells them about my show in that email.

    Whereas for Foreign Dissent 1, 2, and 3, I was usually contacting bands after the first lineup announcement, now I’ll probably start hearing from bands in the next three weeks who want to play it.

    I’m a little slow because I like to build a lineup that speaks to me. I’m limited by whoever is playing Fest. Fest usually has anywhere from 16 to 22 foreign bands, so I usually get about half of them playing. I try to pick the ones that resonate with me most and build a lineup that’s interesting.

    I don’t need eight bands that all sound like Dillinger Four. I love Dillinger Four, but I want diversity of sound. I want diversity of band members and what they speak to. Unfortunately, some of that is controlled by what Fest has.

    I’ll probably advance confirm by February or March. Usually I make my first announcement the day Fest makes its first announcement. Obviously I can’t announce anything until Fest does. This past year was unique because Fest usually does two big announcements, April and then June or July. None of the Foreign Dissent bands were announced in the April announcement, which totally threw me off because I had a whole plan to do two announcements too.

    My goal will be to have a lineup locked in by March or early April. For the 10th year, I’m probably going to do shirts. I haven’t done shirts since the fifth year.

    Scott:
    That’s super rad. I find it interesting that you don’t just wait for bands to be booked by Fest. You encourage bands to contact Fest and Tony to get on it. I don’t know how effective that is. I’ve tried for many years and never played Fest, but I also had a band I’m putting out a record for next month from Albany called The Snorts. In April they said, hey Scott, do you have any contact with Fest? I said, yeah, here’s the guy. Give it a whirl. A month later they were like, yeah, we’re playing. I was like, what the fuck? How did that happen?

    Craig:
    I’ve had some pretty good success. Each year I send Tony a list of foreign bands I think he should have at Fest. I only include bands I’ve already talked to who already have an interest. I’m not going to put some band out there if I haven’t interacted with them.

    There was one year, maybe the year before COVID, where he said, okay, this band and this band, go ahead and let them know they can play Fest. I was like, wait, you want me to tell them?

    Two years ago, I got FJØRT on Fest. I had asked people what foreign bands they would like to see play Fest, and FJØRT from Germany kept getting mentioned. Three or four people mentioned them. No other band got mentioned more than twice. I listened to them, and they’re this heavy, kind of hardcore, metallic, incredible band. They’re really big in Germany. They sell out thousand-cap rooms everywhere in Germany.

    I talked to them and their management. I don’t always love dealing with management because it’s less personal and doesn’t happen that often with Foreign Dissent, but I got them on. It was huge. Maybe the best set that has ever played Foreign Dissent. If you haven’t watched that set on YouTube, go search FJØRT Foreign Dissent. The full set is on YouTube, and it’s absolutely sick.

    They came and hung out the Sunday before, drank every beer we had here, and were the most fun. They came with a sound guy, a front-of-house guy, and their manager. It was the most support any band has had, and everyone was lovely. It was not uncomfortable or weird management stuff. We all had so much fun.

    I try really hard to find bands throughout the year. If you see my top releases for 2024, half of them are foreign bands because the algorithms are feeding me a lot of foreign punk bands now, and I actively seek it out too. I’m messaging bands all the time saying, here’s the deal, I want you to play my thing, this is how it works, are you interested?

    Scott:
    After this is over, hit me with your address and I’ll mail you my two international releases. I did two releases with Costa Rican bands with the support of Altercados and Xpunkha, and Sentido Común and Chuck Jones. They were both co-released with Punk Rock Mag.

    I’m also doing a German artist split with an American artist coming out this spring. The American artist is Mark Allen Prince. He does singer-songwriter stuff and used to play drums in Some Kind of Nightmare. The other artist is Red at Night from Germany. I’ll email you the digital files so you can listen.

    Craig:
    Awesome. I’ll post it on SoundCloud. Just kidding.

    We had one Costa Rican band play called Carousel. Anytime you hear about a foreign band you think is cool, send it my way. I’ve always got my ear out for something cool, different, and neat. I want more hardcore bands. There have been very few hardcore bands from other countries coming to Fest.

    This past year we had Regrowth from Italy, which was amazing. I was so happy to see some screamo hardcore on stage for Foreign Dissent for the first time.

    Scott:
    For a little while I was doing reviews on my blog, and I got overwhelmed. One, I got hit up by so many people asking me to do reviews. Two, it got hard for me to give honest reviews that didn’t sound like they were carbon copied. There are only so many ways I can say I like the crunchy guitars.

    I didn’t want to give insincere reviews, and I didn’t want to trash a band either. So I only reviewed bands I actually liked, but there’s a certain amount of creativity in writing a good review. If you’re doing 10 reviews in a week, you run out of the ability to properly assess things.

    I used to get a lot of foreign bands, and I would often say, you should definitely play Fest and talk to Foreign Dissent as well. If there was an international band I thought would be great at Fest, that was a pretty common comment I made.

    Craig:
    I love that. Marshall hit me up the other day at a show and said this band from Poland contacted him about playing Foreign Dissent because they thought maybe he ran it. I thought it was kind of cool that someone didn’t know who runs Foreign Dissent but thought it might be Marshall from Montgomery Drive. I was weirdly flattered by that.

    They sounded great. You never know who is going to tip me off to my next favorite foreign band. Bring it on.

    Scott:
    Once again, I know we kept chatting a bit longer, but there is so much we could talk about. Craig, you have been an amazing guest. I love everything you’re doing. I love what you’ve done. I can’t wait to see what you do going forward, whether it’s Foreign Dissent going on for the next 20 years or something else.

    Your energy and your passion for supporting the community are inspiring to me, and I hope everyone who listens is as inspired as I am. Much love and much respect to all that you do.

    Craig:
    Thank you, Scott. You inviting me shows exactly that you do the same thing. You’re all about supporting the community. You’ve always done it with those live recordings. I’ve always thought it was so cool that you do that and capture those moments to support these bands.

    Learning more about what you do makes me love it even more. I hope this podcast turns out to be exactly what you were hoping it would be. I love that you’re giving space for those of us who feel as passionate about the community as any band member, but maybe don’t get a chance to talk about what we do in the same way. I appreciate it.

    Scott:
    Much love, and thank you to everyone listening out there in podcast-land. This has been Craig Mazer of Foreign Dissent. We’re going to close out, and you’ll hear a song of his choice from one of his favorite international bands that either has played, may play, or we’ll see what happens.

    Thank you for tuning in, and have a great fucking day.

    Craig:
    Thanks, Scott.

  • Alright everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live Presents Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene. Recording engineers, show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound peoples, and more.

    I'm your host Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting the live hardcore punk-scod metal shows on short run vinyl. With 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands, DC Florida and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows, I've had the privilege of working with lot of amazing talent in the scene.

    Speaking of which today's guest is Amy Brady, a multifaceted force in the punk rock community whom I first met through the vibrant online community that is Scene to Scene While many know Amy is the co-founder of Allegedly Records, which she runs alongside Brie Myers and others, today we're focusing on her work with Beyond the Pit PR.

    This full-service agency provides essential support to the scene through marketing, artist management, social media strategy, website design, press packages, and public relations. I'm almost out of breath. Amy and her team's creative impact runs deep in the DIY community.

    For me personally, they've designed layouts for nearly all 16 of my album jackets this year, created promotional materials for album releases across social media and zines, and even designed beer koozies that distributed at Camp Punxsavania and The Fest.

    In fact, the artwork for this very podcast is another example of Beyond the Pits PR's artistic vision and dedication to the scene. Take a breath. Hey Amy, how you doing? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. It sounded perfect to me.

    Yeah. In fact, you made me sound better than I would have thought, you know. No, you can do a lot of shit. Yeah, I do. I'm kind of all over the place. You are and and much like me you're in school. So I come the full-time Doctoral student and you're a full-time at Berkeley in like music management or something.

    Correct me. I'm please Okay business. I'm kind of toying with the idea of establishing a minor in music production, just so think it would be neat to have. But yeah, I don't know. We'll see you there. We'll always see. We will always see.

    beyond the PIP PR, so like what was your vision for this? How has it evolved? Where is it going? Give me your five minute elevator speech. Not that you ever want to be in an elevator for five minutes. When we originally, well, when it was originally started, it was Damon Workman from Bipolar Records, Bree, my partner from Allegedly and myself.

    And we just kind of wanted to do more, kind of provide the same services that we provide our Allegedly bands, but, you know, to bands that don't necessarily fit with the label or just other bands that weren't on it. We stay pretty small since it's just, it's just Bree and I now.

    So we keep things pretty small over there. So with being in the pit, just kind of wanted to expand our reach and be able to help other bands. Unfortunately, when we started it was right before Brie got her, she had a medical diagnosis, which caused her to kind of like take stock in what she wanted to invest her time in.

    And she was like, you know, I just kind of want to stick with the label. I have a lot going on. So now it's pretty much. Just me, David's still involved. He does blog writing and stuff, but he also is a very busy person. He has a pretty demanding job.

    So most of the time when you reach out to be on the pit, you're going to get me. You know, we really just want to offer services like, I do a lot of EPK design. That's actually my favorite part of it too. I like to be able to have the creative stuff and the stuff I do for you with your albums.

    I like that kind of stuff. Writing press releases. Um, getting that out to press, which I do have to say has been a little more difficult lately than usual. Just press doesn't seem to be responding as much these days, but yeah, I work on that a lot.

    pretty much any kind of like, you know, I have like packages and stuff available, but I always tell any new client, like it's all customizable. There's nothing set in stone. You know, what works for one band might not work for another.

    We do like social media checks. I've done things where like I've sent DMs for bands to their followers and you have to be like kind of crafty about that because you can only send so many a day and you have to mix up the messages.

    Oh, I've that. I've done like social media, just taking over social media accounts. Kind of just whatever we can think of to get your band out there and your music out there and however we can do that, we'll do. a buffet of stuff.

    Right? I mean, that is a buffet. And you know, the thing I love about you most is that you're consistent, you're high quality, and you're responsive to me when I reach out to you. And... try to be. Communication is really important to me and I know I hate being ignored more than anything.

    So I don't, you know, I try to put those values into my business too. Well, I mean, I think for me, like any other DIY label or band, I first try to rely on the kindness of friends. And then I'm like, ugh. I need this album jacket design and they're working on it and I'm not paying them so I can't really hassle them for getting the jacket design.

    I was like, oh, but I can hassle Amy. I need this ad made. I need this flyer made. Like, you know, it's like, oh, if I go to Amy, I at least know that I feel like she's my friend, I respect her, and I enjoy talking to her, but I'm also like, she treats me as a client.

    Yeah. So, which I think is great, so like, how, how is involvement with Scene2Scene, because that's where I met you, right? Has being involved with Scene2Scene affected how this business ran or how it originated? I would say it probably affected how it originated just in that we were kind of seeing what other labels were going through, you know, not that we necessarily thought we had issues that were unique to us, but just kind of seeing what other people needed and, you know, different needs and needs that were the same as what we had and how they weren't really being met.

    I know there are a few different, you know, marketing PR kind of agencies out there that that do similar stuff. For me, I don't know if this is any different, but I really try to keep my prices affordable too, because I know that these are bands that, yeah, I know they're bands that are just, this isn't their day job and, you know, they're just working class folks like any of the rest of us.

    So, yeah, so just wanted to provide something affordable for, You know, just the bands in our scene to be able to end the labels and I've worked with a few different labels as well. Yeah. PR is one of the, you know, getting pressed is one of the hardest things.

    you know, very early on, you know, I toyed with things like Muso Soup or Usin' Bit, but then you like, you're paying to get articles and it's often AI generated, and I can tell by looking at my website that I'm not getting any hits from it.

    So it may make me feel good in my heart, like, yeah, look at this article, but like, half the time they just copy and paste my press release, and it's just a waste of my time. and money. and when you do get hits too, like you don't know if they're authentic or not.

    That's one thing. mean, I think maybe some of my clients or potential clients may get frustrated that, you know, I'm a little more slow going, but I will write a different thing for every, every, you know, press outlet that I submit to.

    I'll write a different little, it'll be the same information, but I'll rewrite it. So it's not, you know, just copy and paste on a bunch of different sites. And I don't do. I don't do like the paid stuff like that. will just organically reach out to each one.

    And it is difficult sometimes to get a response and sometimes, you know, it'll be months and I don't get anything. But I don't give up. That's one thing about me is I will just keep going until, because, you know, a lot of the people I work with are my friends or, you know, Jason to, you know, they're a friend of a friend or whatever.

    So I think my biggest fear is someone thinking that I'm like ripped them off, that they didn't get their money's worth. So. I just keep going until everyone's happy, I guess. always a concern in an environment where you can do everything but you can't be guaranteed that something's gonna come out of it.

    I had Sean from Middle Age Queers. He does a great job writing press releases. He was in between jobs. So he did that for me and he sent some stuff off and I kind of worked with him both because he has connections but also to help him as he was between jobs.

    But there was like one of the albums that I thought we would get more. But it's not his fault. Right. He said on all of the people he knows, he had done a previous album and got a better response in the next album. But I don't blame him, but you could feel the chagrin on him.

    Like he wanted to charge me less, even though he did the same work because the results were different. Absolutely. Yeah. And I struggle with that as well. I really hate that. as I guess what I was kind of saying about press, like lately I've just been not getting the responses that I, that I used to.

    And I know that with a lot of those outlets, they get bands sending them stuff constantly and PR people. And, um, you know, I don't take that personally, but I also, I, at the same time, I like, I'm afraid that, I don't know, the bands will take it personally.

    Like that I am not doing anything. So I guess they don't physically see me sending out these emails. I could copy them on each one, but I generally don't. That sounds daunting for them. that doesn't sound necessarily, you know, and there's always so many places.

    Mm-hmm. out to that I think are valid, right? Like you have your like punk rock theory, punk site, punk news, C point blank, et cetera, but how many places out there are real? I tried using a PR person when DCxPC first started and I'm pretty sure the person created fake websites.

    wow. Like it was just stuff that I think this person created and no one reads and they put reviews on them for all the bands they work with just to like you know say you got listed on these three websites but I'm pretty sure the person just created them.

    Yeah, wow. That's, I mean, I guess that's one way to at least show like, I did something, but, know, again, it's not gonna, it's not gonna further that band's reach, you know, that's not really helpful. to be honest, I don't even know how valuable any of that is.

    I don't read a lot of blogs. I don't read a lot of reviews. I I send my stuff off to Maximum Rock and Roll and Razor Cake and it gets the reviews and I post them. But when I get my issue of Razor Cake, I don't read through every review of every band.

    And I very rarely read a review and said, because I read this review, I need to buy this record right now. Right. You know, I don't think they, I don't want to say they don't have any impact since that is a lot of the work I do, but I don't think that they have the impact that people always think they do.

    You know, I think really getting on a good, which is equally difficult, getting on good like playlists on Spotify or whatever, stuff like that can make a bit more of an impact. And then just consistent social media posting.

    You know, a lot of bands are or quick to dismiss TikTok, but really TikTok can be a good place to get, know, just put little snippets of your shows or practices or time in the van, whatever, just because the algorithms are so crazy on there.

    You never know what's going to like hit big. And you don't know, I took, when I first started this label, I was like, you know, the DIY person in me says that you don't like try and press it on people. But I was like, you know, I used to pass out flyers and I still pass out flyers for shows.

    So I signed up to this website called Indiepreneur and I learned about the Facebook algorithm and I took a video that my band had made and whatever, it's got like. hundreds of thousands of views because I learned how to work the algorithm but then I tried again months later and it didn't work.

    Was it the song? Was it the video? Did the algorithm change? Yeah. We, um, one time on allegedly just a friend of mine was at a show and he saw someone wearing one of our shirts and he took a picture and he sent it to me.

    And it was like 5 a.m. on a Sunday and I had my set time. Like you don't post on the weekends, you know, this is the best time to post. But it was a Sunday and it was like, whatever, I'm just going to post this picture. That picture for some reason ended up getting like 10 million views.

    And to be clear, most of our stuff we post on allegedly Facebook get like, you know, 50 views, not millions, just regular 50. Yeah, I like 10 million views. were thousands of comments, like tens of thousands of likes. And I was like, you know what?

    I don't know anymore. Then I give up on trying to figure out the algorithms. I have no idea why that one picture went viral and nothing else ever has. And it's hard to know. I have close to like say 4,000 followers, but I'm fully aware that it's all about engagement.

    And out of those 4,000 people, maybe I have 100 to 250 people engaged every week. And is it a different 150 or 250 or is the same 250? Which means I really have 250 followers because the other ones aren't engaged. Because I follow like almost 5,000 people.

    Because I follow bands I like, but I almost never see their stuff. Mm-hmm. I do see it like it, then I'll get you. It's like, it's this weird landscape of I'm trying my best, but how do I know that anyone's getting anything?

    Yeah. Yeah. And I always tell bands that same point, you know, followers don't equal customers. Followers aren't going to be active listeners. Followers aren't going to be attending your show. mean, not that no followers are, but your amount of followers does not dictate your success at all.

    And that's why I really hate when a lot of bands will try the, like the follow and unfollow method where they follow a bunch of people and get them to follow back and then unfollow. Always that's the One of the first things when I social media taxes, don't do that.

    take your time following someone you don't want to listen, pay attention to anyway. Is there a fear that having too many followers makes them look like they've falsely generated their own follows? Is that why they unfollow?

    Well, supposedly, if you have fewer followers or if you have more followers than people you're following, then the algorithms put you up higher. But you don't have to have, you know, you don't have to just unfollow everyone.

    Maybe they think that it will make them look cooler. Like, I'm not really sure that the method behind that, but actually it can be kind of harmful to a smaller band because If people start to notice they've been unfollowed and unfollowed back, you get a drop in followers and that the algorithm does notice.

    It does notice when a bunch of people unfollow you at once and actually put your stuff lower. 15 to 30 unfollows every week. Most of the time I'm pretty sure it's people trying to get me to go to their OnlyFans sites. Right, it's, you I'm like, someone liked my post, who are they?

    I was like, it's an OnlyFans person. Like, there's a lot of that going on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know, know, it's all no man's land, I guess. Okay, so take me like I'm a physical media guy. I don't do Spotify. I don't do playlists Bands can do whatever they want digitally and some bands will put one song up sometimes with the whole album up But I deal with none of that.

    I just sell physical albums What would you suggest like be my marketing strategy for selling physical albums? Bands that people may have never heard of because as the history teacher in me I like to document the scene even if it means I'm documenting some band that like is only been around three months and has never left their hometown.

    Yeah, well, I mean, I think for physical media, obviously getting it in front of people physically is important. Like for me, if I go to a show, I can't leave without merch. So if I see something that I'm like, ooh, versus if I see it online, then I'm like, oh, I'm going to get around to buying that.

    know, getting people right there in the now where they can have it in their hands in that moment is important. So doing things like festivals and shows, which I know that you've done. I do. So that kind of stuff, distribution in local record stores, even if you get some far away record stores is cool.

    do you do anything for like crafting email campaigns? And I ask because you know I've got like six or seven hundred customers on my like marketing list that organically grown from people that just agreed to be part of it.

    But when I send out an email maybe 40 % of them open it and then maybe 10 % of them actually click. Yeah click on it right? So it's like man And I don't know if it's my copy that's bad or it's just emails. But I get it. I get emails all the time from Smart Punk Records and other great record labels I love.

    And I don't read it. No, no. we have pretty good luck with allegedly when I send them out, we, do do those, not frequently though. So maybe that's maybe it's just because I do them so infrequently. Yeah. That they're like, what's this?

    Um, yeah, I would say it's probably not your copy. It's probably more just that it is. mean, I get those same things too. And it's stuff that I signed up for that I wanted to get. And then, you know, I just get an overwhelming amount of emails from all kinds of places.

    I know we all do. So I just kind of sort of just look for the ones that I actually need and skip over everything else. You figure I have my personal email, my label email, my band email, my school work email. Then I have my personal Instagram, my band Instagram, and my label Instagram, Facebook.

    I do try and do TikTok for the label. I just probably don't know how to do it right. Like I'm almost 50 years old and I'm sure there's a way of doing it that's like cool, but I don't know what that is. Yeah. Yeah. I've had interns at Beyond the Pit every semester.

    I think I'm not going to do it this semester just because there wasn't a lot of I didn't have a lot to give them to do last semester and I felt bad about it. So I'm to kind of assess where I'm at. But no, you know, it's really great.

    Posts on LinkedIn. And people are always so excited to work for a record label or not a record label, but in music industry. Sure. But that's one of the good things about it is a lot of times I'll get young people who are like, I am a TikTok specialist and I'm like, you are hired.

    Yeah, I mean there was one time my daughter is 16 now, but she was probably 12 or 13. I was like, hey, I'm doing this show. Can you make a TikTok to promote it? I'll pay you X amount of money like, you know, $15 or whatever in my kid.

    And then she took it and she took like some some audio from the TV show. Was it Euphoria? That was like really big, you know, and it just like it went crazy. And I'm like, huh? what mean. You never know what TikTok like you just never know what's going to like really hit.

    So, okay, so beyond the pit you have your smorgasbord of things you do. What tends to be the number one thing that people ask you to do? Like, what is the number one thing that you feel like you spend most of your time on?

    Probably press and EPKs. I do a pretty like intricate EPK. Most any of the packages you get or I do them also as a standalone but any of the packages you get comes with a two page EPK and also matching one sheet and I host them on my website so you can either send out the PDF with all the links or you just send a link you know and each you know each one has its own personal link.

    So they get a lot of requests for. But other than that, mostly people just want to get press. So like, the EPKs, I was like, one day I'm gonna reach out to you again, because like, I went through your EPKs and I looked at them, they looked great, and then I noticed that for me, you had like one of the ads that you made for me, because I've never asked you to do an EPK.

    I like, I should probably have that. And I was like. no, and I like to do them. They're a lot of fun to do. They take me a lot of time. They take me way more time than I charge for. And sometimes I've had interns do them just to practice and they're usually pretty quick with them.

    And I'm like, how are you so quick? I think it's just because I'm such a perfectionist and I'm like, everything has to be aligned and perfect. know. And that's the other struggle, right? Like this is what I've noticed with you.

    You charge a fair rate and even if I come back and say, hey, can you change this a little bit, change that a little bit? And you're spending time on it, but you're spending such a fair rate that I don't feel like I got ranked over the coals.

    Where every now and then I've hired a graphic artist to make a flyer for me and then they send me and I'm like, these five things need to be changed. And all of a sudden this graphic artist went from charging me 40 bucks for a flyer to charging me 80 bucks because they had to spend more time because I didn't like the first version.

    And I don't feel like... What's that? Oh, I was just gonna say, would think, you know, normally you would have, like, I think, I don't know, the way I feel that it should be, if I do, if I give you a draft of something, and that's usually your stuff, know exactly what to do.

    Like, it's not, but if I'm just have my own complete creative control and I am doing something and you don't like it, I would feel like the first set of edits should be, you know, included in that, but I don't. my thought too, right?

    And I'm like, that's me as a customer now. It's like, I need to ask when I hire someone to do graphic work for me. And I feel like graphic work is like the hardest because it's a certain amount of creativity and you almost can't force inspirado.

    besides like the creative stuff I need for my label, I do like show promotions and I need flyers and I reach out to people but I'm like, I do two, sometimes three shows a month. Yeah, like it's expensive. it is. And one person can't do it all either too because they get, it might take them two weeks to do something because they're doing it as a side job because they're a chef or there's something else and it's gonna be amazing when it's done.

    But I have to like spread it all over the place. I'm like, I constantly feel like, man, if only I could do everything. But I don't have the skills to do everything. I'm not creative. You know, I... I was a little bit more.

    I am creative in a way, but I just might. I'm not an artist. My drawing hand is like this. The thing for this podcast, the image for that. Yeah, there's no way I could have done that. Yeah, and like I kind of came up with it, but I came up with it by like, you know, using AI to come up with a graph and then having you and was it your daughter?

    Yeah, make it real because I don't wanna just use AI generated art. You know, I mean you can I guess. Like if I made it myself, I guess I wouldn't have paid an artist anyway. I have two minds of that, but I just. You know, I feel like, you know, it's about scene support.

    I should support the scene, right? So, it gave the idea. So I had the idea in my head, but most often, like I've worked with you before and I said, hey, you know, the bands, I told them could do whatever they want for the center label.

    They had no ideas. Do whatever you want. And they're like, what do you want? I was like, I don't have an idea. Like I put out 16 records. I don't have time to think about every band's brand. If the band doesn't care that I'm not going to, Right.

    Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of stuff I can do, like I can, you know, take elements rather things and put it together and hopefully make it look cool. But if I have to draw something from scratch, it's usually not going to be great.

    Yeah, well I mean you have to be an artist, right? An illustrator almost. So has there ever been like way outside the box anywhere and asked you to do that you had to do that was like, what the monkey are you asking me to do?

    What? Okay, let me try it. Not, not really, not yet. Anyway, um, we'll see. I think probably the most, the most different thing that I was asked was to send those DMS, um, just cause that wasn't something I had done before.

    So I had to like research, like, so I crafted like five different DMS that said the same thing, but not the same thing. Um, and every day I would send to 50 of their followers and I have to like stagger times that I did it.

    I wouldn't say it's that far off, once I started doing it, I was like, this is more labor intensive than I realized. So how did that work? I know when I first started, I wasn't above the small number of people that followed me, because a lot of them I knew personally anyway, let's be honest, right?

    Of going, hey, this new record is out. I don't like to be pushy, but yada yada. Mm-hmm. And most of the time people were like, thanks dude, I didn't know that was coming out, I'm gonna grab it. Or I got very few and far between, it like, why are you messaging binging me stuff that's not punk rock, back off, I don't wanna hear your fucking marketing through my Instagram.

    So what. on its own. hate when people say something isn't punk rock. that's a different topic. you know, for that, seems... Yes. Yeah. I read a big blog post on my Beyond the Pit site about punk police. Something that really irritates me.

    But anyway, I digress. Right. Yeah. I am just... least punk as I could possibly be, think sometimes. But for them, I think it worked out pretty well. The DMs, I didn't read their messages. I would just send them and then get out of their Instagram, just because that wasn't something we had discussed.

    But for a while until I figured out how to turn it off, I was getting notifications for their messages. And what I would see was positive. And then their streams went really, like their streams kind of went through the roof.

    from what they were used to. So I did have a, yeah, yeah. And it was, had a Spotify link in it. And it was, they were putting out an EP, but they did a single like every month leading up to it. So each month I would, you know, focus on each single.

    And then at the end, I just finished off the rest. they had like something like 35, 3,600 followers. And at 50 a day, you know, that takes a while to get through them all. Yeah, I mean, I already spend almost too much time on social media every day, because I try and do one to two significant posts every day.

    And that's just a lot of time. It is. I've actually kind of burnt myself out on social media, um, just because I was doing so much with beyond the pit and allegedly, and then my own stuff. I rarely go on my own social media.

    I mean, I'll go on and like, if I have notifications and check my messages, but other than that, people will ask, did you see so and so's post on such inception? I'm like, no, no, I don't see anything. the most common one would be Facebook.

    My wife would be like, oh did you see what's happening with such and such on Facebook? I was like, well that's my personal page. I don't look at my personal page, because I don't have time to look at my personal page. I only look at my DCxPC page, because I have no time for personal stuff.

    I do try to post everything for Beyond the Pit and allegedly on my personal because my personal stories get way more views than either of the other ones. Even though allegedly has like twice as many followers as I do, my personal will always have more.

    And I think that's just an algorithm thing. They just try to keep businesses down more than they do people. And I feel like anytime there's like an image of you as a person, or a video of you as a person tends to help, I could be wrong, but like I just posted like my recap where I went through like everything I did and I was like, oh, it's at almost like 2000 views, which is a lot for me.

    I mean a lot. Mind you. help if you can have like a face of the brand. Unfortunately, I just don't like putting my face out there. Aww, you should. So like, what has been like your biggest success with Beyond the Pit? Like what do you feel like, okay, this is the most I did, right?

    I walked away and I was like, you know, you're like Ice Cube. Yep, that was a good day. You know, that's, difficult to say since some, since, know, the campaigns tend to go on, as I said, like, I don't really stop until everybody's satisfied.

    Um, it's like, it's kind of hard to know when I've reached that point. I guess I consider all of them a success if everyone's like, you know, nobody's complained, like everyone's satisfied with the amount of press that they've gotten and, they like their EPK.

    Um, usually I feel a great amount of pride after I do like. and something like an APK or something on the more creative side because they do take me a long time and I am a perfectionist in that way. So once I finish it, I'm like, this is beautiful and stunning and I love it.

    And hopefully the band does too. But yeah, as far as that goes, it's kind of hard to measure. I 100 % understand. I get that. It's one of those amorphous things where it's like, did that go well or did it not? I did get an opportunity to do some press for RKL when they were doing their California reunion shows.

    My friend, a good friend of mine, her husband's in the band. And so I got, you know, I just sort of did it as a friend for them, but it was to promote their streaming show. And that went really well. I think it sold out. So I...

    I guess that was a success. I'm not sure if it was mine, it was probably theirs, but. that just made my day. I am adjacent to, there was this Northern Virginia group of kids back when, so when Tim Berry, singer for A Veil, before he was in A Veil, he was in a band called Learning Disabled Kids in Northern Virginia.

    And that whole area of Lake Anne, rest of Virginia, my old roommate Lake Anne Dave, they were just obsessed with RKL. And like that obsession bled into me when Dave became my roommate. And so like, I remember walking up to Tim Berry once, he was like, oh dude, you wanna talk about RKL?

    I got a buddy of mine that I live with that loves RKL. was like, is it Dave? It's always Dave. That's so funny. That's, um. There's a small pocket of Northern Virginia kids from the mid-90s who are RKL obsessed. My kids have been people my age now.

    Yes, but there are like pockets of those in every state it seems. Like I didn't realize, you know, how many people and the people that love them love them. Like they're. Lick and Dave would put RKO right there with Bad Brains as the most quintessential band that ever existed.

    He's like, they're equivalent, both of which being just slightly above the clash in his mind. So like, I mean, that's how high he holds them up. Yeah, a lot of people feel that way. yeah, so it was was it was an honor to be able to work with them or do some work for them.

    Not that I. Yeah. Yeah, it was fun. you you work with a lot of DIY bands. Like what is the number one advice you give to the bands that you work with? What is the thing you say, okay, let's sit down. Let's sit down at the kitchen table.

    This is it. This is the number one thing you really need to do if you want to grow. Um, mostly I tell them, and I think I mentioned to you before we started, you know, I can only do as much. I can meet you in the middle. I can only do as much as you have to be willing to put into it too.

    Like, you know, this has to be a partnership. Um, just like we tell bands and we sign them on our label. This has to be a partnership. We can't, I can't make you famous, but if you're willing to put in the work, you know, I can help get your name out there.

    Um, that, and then the social media stuff I always really hit hard on. Don't do the follow and follow. Make sure you're engaging with your fans. You are not too good for your fans and the people who comment on there. You gotta talk to them, engage with them, make them feel like there's a personal connection, or make a personal connection rather than make them feel that way.

    those are the kinds of things that people will remember and that will create, that will take somebody from being a follower to a fan. I'd say that's, yeah. me to be all in on your stuff. You want me to be like, I'm gonna get everything you do.

    And I don't know what happened with Famous Records in Philadelphia. I never heard of them until this last year. Then I played a show with this band called 13 Cavities and I dug them as people and then the record came out I got it was like my boys into some more putting out a record through them Oh and this band Jaylin contacted me to do a show.

    It's like they're on famous records, too So I picked up their record. I think I bought five records from that label this year And I gotta tell you I don't buy a lot of records because I spent all my money putting out records Yeah, right.

    like this record that I've never heard of who've been around for like five years maybe more all of a sudden I just bought five of their records. I think I bought every release they put out this year. That's awesome. And yeah, it's just that personal connection.

    And I mean, if you think about a band or I don't know, an artist that you really love, if you were to send them a message on Facebook and maybe before working in the music industry, when you know, you don't realize, they're all just people too.

    But you know, if you're really fan girling or fanboying over someone and you send them a message and they respond, like that's going to mean so much to a fan or even commenting on our posts and they like it. like that's gonna mean so much to a fan and they're gonna go like so much further all in on you.

    I think as opposed to just being ignored and not ever just having any kind of engagements with your fans. So with the band management, do you ever get into booking them tours or things of that nature or do you stay away from that sort of stuff?

    you know, I'm open to it, but I'm always really upfront about it. Like where my contacts are. Uh, I used to, when I started in the music industry, uh, my husband and I were just like booking and promoting shows locally. So I don't like, I don't have the stomach for the promotion type stuff just because I would get so stressed out.

    Like, what if nobody comes and I would, you know, if it wasn't a well-attended show, I would feel like personally responsible for that. Um, been there. I would end up just like drinking too much and then my husband would have to, you know, I did all the work up into the show and then I would get all stressed out and like start drinking whiskey.

    And then I don't know, just, it too much stress for me. Nope, I feel that. I do show promotions in my area, and I'm doing my first monthly shows on Sunday matinees at this place in Kingston, and I've sold myself as someone who can make this work.

    But I haven't even had my first show, and I've already booked out through May. So my first show's a fiasco, so it's just gotta be good though. It's gotta be more than good, because... right. I'm not just doing local bands, I'm bringing bands from four or five hours away.

    Like, I'm doing guarantees, like I am like trying to make it everything it can be. I'm bringing in a sound person so it sounds good, I'm providing food for the bands. I hope so. Yeah, yeah, me too. Yeah, so I guess what I was trying to say is promoting shows, not so much, but booking, don't mind getting into, but I do, I always want to be honest, like I can meet people and I don't mind reaching out and like making connections.

    Like that part, I have no problem, but I don't have ready set connections and venues in every area. Well and that's the other thing too right like there's a local band in my area called World Sucks Great metal band with some punk and hardcore influences I've helped them on two tours and they're like Scott we want you to be our manager and we're gonna pay you I was like To do what?

    To book our tours. I'm like, but I've already done that for you Yeah, but we're gonna pay you and I was like, but then they have to pay me now. Now I the pressure You're right, yes. quality, right? If I book you a show in Murfreesboro, Tennessee and it's a farce and you didn't pay me.

    Yeah, right. But if I'm like, you're painting me and it's a fiasco-ville, then I suddenly feel like a dick-ass. Right. Yeah, yeah, no, I know the feeling. I felt that way anyway. Like I never made any money booking shows and I didn't care.

    I mean, most of the stuff I do, don't make money on, but. make money running a record label. right. Yeah, no, we actually took our record label. We dissolved our LLC this year because we're like, we don't make money on it.

    We never planned to make money on it. Why are we paying taxes? So we dissolved our LLC and it is now it's a hobby label. But yeah. for me, I'm like, I'm not even sure my business model can allow for it based on how I'm doing it because I'm trying to make sure that every band can afford to do it.

    And yeah. comfortable for the bands. And we don't spend any money, you know, so we didn't need, yeah, on physical stuff, obviously you would, but we don't, we don't do the releases, so we don't spend money and we're like, we don't need to make money.

    We can sell in a legibly hoodie here and there and be fine. So. So yeah, as long as we can pay to keep the website up, that's what we always joke like we can raise the $200 we need in a year. I think it's like 400 now, but you know, whatever we need to keep the website.

    your website says you do website design. How much of that do you do? I don't do like the coding stuff, like I have created a few websites actually on Wix I'm best with. Even though almost every time I want to throw my computer out the window when I use it.

    I could do a little WordPress. There's a few others that I've dabbled with, yeah, normally I recommend Wix anyway, just because it's, even if it upsets me, it's the most user friendly, I think. made mine on Squarespace. I feel like it could look better but it's fine.

    It gets the job done. Wix keeps getting more and more expensive. So I'm kind of, you know, second guessing that every every year I have to pay it. I'm like cursing them under, you know, as I'm paying the bill. But. I would agree.

    don't think Squarespace is exactly the cheapest one. But I actually like it better than using something like Bandcamp. Because I'd rather just pay an annual fee than always pay the fees for all the records. like, you know, when I put out a record and I post it on Bandcamp and I tell the bands if they want to like have the digital album available there that, you know, since I paid for the mixing, mastering, recording in most cases.

    Right. that the digital money's gonna come to me as well to the record sold out and they usually agree to that. But I almost never get any additional money because usually they take that money to pay off some sort of like latent cost of selling the vinyl that I sold.

    It's just really weird. I just hate Bandcamp. Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, you have more freedom with just a website. Like you're not. think there's some limitations with just using Bandcamp. And this might just be selfish too, but like when people buy stuff on Bandcamp if I link it to the late to the band's Bandcamp and they buy it there through the band's Bandcamp and then I have I'm in charge of like mailing it out I don't get that contact information for my mailing list Oh, yeah, no, that's, yeah, I think that's an important thing to want.

    because then it builds my customer service list. Sure, yeah, of course. Yeah, so. But yeah, I do a little bit of website stuff here and there. It's not my favorite thing to do, but I do it. So your favorite thing though is like, you mentioned doing the EP case is your favorite thing.

    Yeah, and actually, you know, doing the websites isn't that. Unsimilar from doing the EPKs. So I guess I don't hate it. It's just when I hit a technical snag or like I can't get the mobile to look the same as the website, you know, the desktop version, those kinds of things start driving me crazy.

    I can't get Apple music to link. That's my latest issue. That kind of stuff is irritating, but I do like the design aspect of that, which is the thing I like about the EPKs as well. I get all that. like, let's say, I don't know what your feature holds, I don't know if you're gonna broaden your horizons, or you're gonna narrow them, but if you were gonna narrow it, what would you narrow it down to?

    be your focus? And if you were gonna broaden it, what would you wanna add? If I was going to broaden, I'd probably want to add like artist management services. I've taken a few courses that have sort of emphasized artist management.

    And I do like that aspect of it, of the industry. If I was going to narrow. Oh, and I've also thought about bringing on like contractors to do booking services. So I do still have that service, but I have people that like, you know, know different areas.

    Um, I was going to narrow. What's that? I said I'm waving my hand, know lots of areas. yeah, yeah, all right, well we can talk. Then, yeah, if was going to narrow, I don't know, I'd probably keep it to mostly just like the press and EPK stuff, the main stuff that people want, you know, and cut out maybe some of the social media health checks, unless it was requested or, I know, maybe cut down my packages and then people could just request stuff.

    Okay. You suppose. How much of your stuff you've learned in class have you applied to what you're doing here? Because as someone who's also in school for totally different topic than what I'm doing right now, I kind of fantasize about the idea of actually taking classes that relate to it.

    And I don't know if you're living my fantasy or not. It is nice. You know, sometimes I'll finish, you know, a semester or just even a hard assignment. I'm like, this is stupid. I'm not learning anything. But I'm just like not realizing that I'm learning it.

    You know, and then a lot of it also is a little bit. I don't want to say repetitive, but some of the classes kind of go over the same stuff, especially when I'm, you know, I have a focus on marketing. And a lot of it's kind of related to bigger bands or bigger artists.

    and it doesn't always apply to me. But there has been a lot that I have taken and really been able to apply to just the business in general and allegedly. Last semester, this class really, I didn't think would have anything to do with what I'm doing.

    It just sounded interesting. was neuroscience and music. But it actually ended up being, yeah, it was a really interesting course. It was hard, but it was really interesting. And there was a lot that I feel like I learned from that, I don't know, just more understanding music and how people relate to it.

    I'm not really quite sure how to put that into action just yet, but it was a very interesting course. In your courses, your classmates, your cohorts, how many of them are actively already in the music industry like you are versus how many are like people who are just most of them?

    of them are artists. And a lot of our classes are geared toward people who like have any type of musical talent, which is not me. Like I had to take a math class and this I cried every week of this semester because it was like math for musicians.

    And I'm already terrible at math and I'm not a musician. So I just did not know what was going on. I, you know, I've had a 4.0 every semester and that one I was like getting Cs on my assignments. I got an F on my final. I somehow managed to get a B minus in the course, but it was really hard.

    What's up? Good for you though. Sometimes stuff is hard. it was it was really hard and you know fucked up my 4.0 but whatever at least I got it done with like halfway through the semester I was like I don't care about the 4.0 anymore I just want to get this class done with when I saw the F on the final I I cried so hard I was like I'm gonna have to take that over I went back to college when I was 32 and I graduated with a 4.0 but it was like so much pressure because I was like, oh, I have to get an A every class because I don't want to lose a 4.0.

    I mean, as soon as I get a B that I can relax because whatever, 3.8, 3.7, 3.9, it's fine. Right. but I don't wanna lose it and I'm just like. Yeah, I would obsess over it and my husband would always tell me, you're going to get your degree if you have a B, you'll be fine.

    I know, but I already have it and I just want to keep it. I've been doing so well. but like I'm not exactly sure of your age bracket, but like for those of us that go back to school later in life, we feel like we have something to prove to ourselves.

    Like, you know what? We could have done this when everyone else did it, but our lives were complex or different in whatever way, and we're doing it now. And yeah, I may be 32, but I can do this shit. Well, I had my kids when I was 20 and 23.

    So, and I got married when I was 20. So yeah, now I'm in my forties and kind of just realized like I can do whatever the fuck I want. Like I can go to school for music. I can do that. So that's what I'm doing. I had my kids in my 30s and I'm waiting for them to graduate and go away so that I can focus on doing what I want now.

    Cause now that I have like. occasionally though. Occasionally they come back. Yeah. Have to worry about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well. That's good. That can go either way at that age. Yeah, no, I trust me I know I Am fully aware.

    Oh Do you ever do with young bands cuz like I am putting out a record for a high school band from DC called 504 plan And they're great kids, but like I can imagine You know, I'm just doing a record for them But like with your artist management stuff, have you ever dealt with the youngins?

    haven't but you know I would kind of like to it it really excites me when I see young bands like that doing stuff yeah and it kind of like you know re-energizes me. Why are you yelling at me? yeah. I'm like, dude, so much excitement from you.

    Yeah, that's yeah, I love that. Now I haven't had the opportunity and you know, I don't think there are going to be a lot of younger bands like that that are that are paying someone. We did just sign someone on our label though that's like 23.

    You know, most of the most of the bands on there around my age. So that was like, oh, you're you're you're kind of a baby. He's really good. He's a one man band. Yeah, he's he's really good. I was. besides me, do have any other labels?

    Like how many labels do you work with? Well, obviously I've done some work for bipolar and allegedly, but know, Damon's actually hired me to do stuff for his label. And then. Shoot, I can't. Board to Death Records out of North Carolina.

    Then I'm talking to one right now. Gosh, I can't think of his name either. Seems like there was one other. But yeah, I've had a small handful of labels that I've worked with. You know, it's always a little, I don't want to say more difficult, but it just has to be approached differently because a lot of times they'll hire me for like, I have all these releases and I'm like, okay, well we have to break down what's most important for each one, know, focus on that and just sort of take them one at a time.

    know, what I spoke about with graphic artists, right? If I had come to you last year and said, Amy, I have 16 releases in 12 months, run 16 campaigns for me, what would you have said? Yeah, I'll get those to you in the next 12 months.

    I don't know, you know, that's right. Yeah. I know I probably would have been overwhelmed, but then you kind of just have to approach it like, okay, let's break this down when, you know, when each thing is due. There might be 16 releases in the next 12 months, but to think of it at once is, you know, a bit overwhelming.

    So, and I guess that's just like, feel like that could be your bread and butter, because bands may not understand marketing, but I feel like labels do. Yeah, yeah, that's true. And I really do love doing the album covers and the stuff that you give me.

    It's just so exciting to see my name on an album. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you have been like my saving grace this last year. I don't know what I would have done without you, personally. I was like, I don't know who I would go to because I was like, up until you, I was relying, like I said, on a friend here, a friend there, and I was like, my God, I have Amy now, and Amy will do it, and you've been fabulous.

    So, no, I can't thank you enough. I am glad to do it. I really do enjoy it. So is there anything else you would like to share about your current thing that's going on in the future or your role at DIY Music Community? Anything you want to share to kind of close out the episode?

    But no, just that I enjoy doing what I'm doing. I am taking a new job, as I mentioned to you before. So I might be having to sort of space out clients a little bit better because this will go from being my full-time gig to my weekend gig.

    But I don't plan to stop anytime soon. Yeah, I'm happy to. is valuable because the part I love most about you is your honesty and integrity. Right? I try to make my main emphasis. Like I probably will screw something up at some point, but I'll own that and do what I can to fix it.

    You know. I've looked at so many artist management and PR things and either the rates are beyond anything I can do as a startup or it's untrustworthy. And you are both providing rates that I hope are sufficient to the work you do and, but also based on honesty, which I like really respect.

    Well, thank you very much. appreciate that. Yeah. thank you. I really appreciate that. That's where most of my business comes from is word of mouth. So yeah, I very much appreciate that. Alright, so everyone thank you so much for hanging out tonight.

    It's been DCxPC Live Scene support with Amy Brady from Beyond the Pit PR. Check out all their information. It'll be in the episode information. If you're in a band, you should get her to help you do shit because she's amazing.

    If you're record label, same thing. And if you are just someone who's listening, you should still check out everything they have because the people she's supporting, what she does is amazing as

  • Hey everybody, welcome to DCxPC Live presents Scene Support, the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scenes. Recording engineers, show promoters, labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people. You know what the fuck I'm talking about. I'm your host Scott Pash, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY label that documents the live hardcore punk, Scott and metal scene on short run vinyl. I've got 30 years of playing in hardcore punk bands in DC, New York and Florida, and I've been hunting around doing and promoting shows as well. I've had the privilege to talk to a lot of dope people. But today is one of the dopest dudes I've met. His name is Tony Murphy, not Tony Bud, who among other things is the sound person at Will's Pub in Orlando. One of the best venues for underground music for punk, ska, metal, even whatever the fuck ever. I met Tony at Florida Underground Fest where he helped me set up and record a bunch of bands, hardcore, punk, ska, metal, etc. for a pop compilation. And hanging out with him, I got to really fucking like the dude. And I was like, you know what?

    He'd be a fucking perfect person to pull on here to hear what it was like to be a sound guy at a venue that has the local bands that have gone nowhere and the big touring bands that sell it out everything in between and I bet he's got a lot of great fucking stories, so we're gonna hear them. What's going on Tony? I'm doing fucking great. It's so good to see you, dude Yeah, you too, man. It's been a little, I mean, it hasn't even been that long since Florida Underground, but, you know, it's been a minute now. I know, especially with such long days. Yes, my gosh, by the end of Sunday, I was just totally like, holy hell. How much? just that fest vibe. You know, you're just long days drinking PBRs, you know. non-stop and you had to stay, how late do you have to stay after the show's over to tear down all the microphones and put everything away? Like what's the cleanup time for a sound guy? Well, okay, so for this one, we kind of because we did the recording setup and stuff. It was like a more involved set up and tear down on the day one in the last day.

    But because we had so much going on and we were sharing backline every night with the drums and the cabs, I had already negotiated with one of the other audio guys that works there. like, let's just leave everything up so we don't have to tear down and set it up every day. Like nobody's going to fuck with it. So we'll just leave it like that. So it was nice because, know, Friday night, Saturday night, you know, you just turn everything off and make sure nothing's dangerous for someone to trip on. And then, you know, Sunday takes maybe like another hour or something to tear down all the mics, wrap up cables, you know, make sure it's the stages clean. So there's a bunch of trash left on there and so because, know, I cleaned up like. Yeah, I think I think the most part was the beer cans. There was a lot of beer cans on stage, but, know. that your responsibility? Shouldn't that be someone else's responsibility? it's kind of not, but I don't mind helping. It's one of those things that's like, it's my stage. When I'm working, it's my stage, so I take care of it.

    It's the worst when you show up to a gig the next day and there's a bunch of beer cans and broken drumsticks and trash all over from the band before. You're like, come on, man. It just looks bad to the band that comes in. mean, that just reminds me of all the years I did retail and restaurant work and you show up and the fucking clothes didn't do their damn job. it's the same thing. All right, so how long have you been doing Sound at Wool's for? So I've been actually, wow, I've been there for about two and a half years now. It's been cool. don't do it full time. I'm usually there maybe two nights a week, sometimes more if it's like really busy or I'm covering or sometimes less if it's slow, but it's been a blast. awesome. So were you doing sound somewhere else before there? like what's your path to sound guy? Like did you wake up one day and go, I wanna sit here and have bands yell at me from the stage all the time. Well, it's funny. actually, I fell into it. almost like, I would have never guessed I'd be doing sound for bands and I love it as much as I do.

    I got into recording music about 10, 12 years ago, mainly just because I was playing in punk bands and we'd go to studios and record and we'd spend a lot of money and I was always fascinated by it also I was always broke. So I was like, maybe I should learn how to just do this myself so we could put out music and not have to figure out how to come up with like $1,200 bucks a piece to put out an album. And that's, yeah, and that's even keeping it on the cheap side, as you know, because it's stuff you deal with with your records. It is not inexpensive, or it's not a cheap industry. I've managed to like shortcut the expensive recording by doing the live records, you know, but even so, know, mixing and mastering still costs money and pressing the records, but it definitely saves me that I can record four bands for the cost of one day in a studio for one band. So that's been like my saving grace of expenses. Of course sometimes bands suck ass live and sometimes a recording engineer fucks up and I'm like, well, I got nothing. It's four bands and none of it's usable. It does happen. So. yeah, so to continue, I'm gonna just as a preface, I'm gonna get sidetracked just as well. Super80HD.

    we're gonna end up who knows we're gonna end up but um, so yeah, I, I'm recording bands, and that's kind of like starting to take off is like what I'm doing for my job. And you know, I know a lot of the local promoters, because I also play in a band Overthinker. And I'm good friends with Marshall, who was one of the people that helped Montgomery Drive, yeah. he, he, he helped with Florida underground as well with Jacob from Havoc underground. But, um, Marshall hit me up one day, I guess, uh, I think it was cartel, like the main house engineer. I think he had like a surgery or something and he was out and they had a show. was just an acoustic night, something super simple. And Marshall's like, Hey dude, this is like crazy, but I know you like know about sound stuff. Cause you're recording.

    like is there any way you can cover a show tonight because we don't have a sound guy and like we're freaking out and I'm like uh yeah I mean I'm sure I could do that you know I've never I've never really been in charge of it but you know I've played my fair share of like DIY venues where the bands kind of is the sound guy anyway you know what I mean like so I'm like I've had I've had to be that guy and I've you know I've used digital consoles before even in the studio so Yeah, I went in, I did this acoustic show and then it went fine. And then I got asked about a bunch of other shows for the remainder of the month while he was out on his surgery. So I was like, sure, know, I guess I could use the money. you know, fumbled my way through it and then started to really figure it out and like enjoy it and applied some of my like, you know, studio practices, which doesn't always translate to live, but like, you know, a lot of things like understanding EQ, compression, balancing. what kind of mics do what kind of things, know, understanding the difference between dynamic mics and all that. So I kind of up doing okay, I guess. And they kept asking me to come back.

    And then, you know, after a few shows, I started getting some bands come through that were like, you know, like really good. I was like, I want it to sound awesome. So I started, you know, trying new things and experimenting with how I could like make the sound better because it's just. It's the audio guy, same thing in the studio, I'm always striving for the best sounding mix you can get. I do it live, it's a challenge, so it's kind of fun. Is there like a division line, like a hierarchical system of recording engineers in the studios versus sound guys and now you crossed over and you're doing both? Is there like a difference of like, you know, just different people? I mean, some people will say that. I actually do know a lot of people now who are from both worlds. You could talk to a lot of people and everybody's gonna have their own opinion on it. Some of the older, been doing it for 20 years sound guys, they'll sit there and be like, you're a studio guy, you're not gonna last a day at a live show. You're not gonna understand what we gotta deal with. And you know what? I can understand.

    because in the studio when you're trying to make sure that microphone sounds great on a snare drum, you can spend 30 minutes tweaking with it if you want to. Nobody cares. You're on studio time. But in a live show, when you're doing a sound, especially the line check in the middle of like multiple bands, you got about 10 minutes tops after they set everything. Cause the band probably already took a little too long to set up. So you're already like, you've probably got five minutes before their scheduled start time. So you've got to go, you know? So it's like, It is different, you you have to be on the fly and I actually, found I like the challenge. At first it was like very, I remember being like a little stressed out at first cause I was like, Ooh, like I got, I don't know if it's good enough, but you just get quick with it. And it's cool because it translates over. Like now my ears for like pinpointing frequencies that need to be corrected are so on point because of live that when I do a mix in the studio, I'm mixing a song. in like significantly less time and I'm happier with the results.

    And it's just a kind of they do they kind of they kind of go hand in hand there are some differences. You never do a feedback in a studio. Yeah. Yeah. skills from both. So, you you mentioned like the DIY venues bands running it. Whenever I've done venues like that, invariably it's just basically vocal mics and then you just make sure people can hear you and you ask somebody standing 20 feet out if they can hear the vocals over everything else. But like, it wills you mic everything all the time or do you ever have shows where you just do, everything's mic'd every time? Usually yeah, I they're there there instance. I mean I like to do that but it depends you know if I got a band like I just I actually I feel bad. I can't remember their name They have a really cool logo that looks like the PV amp logo, but it's their their base I'm forgetting their name unfortunately, but they have they have like this crazy wall of amps And it's like their whole thing that I've talked to about it these guys like built their own amps. They're like amp builders.

    They're gear nerds And their whole thing, I forget exactly what they said, but it something along the lines of, yeah, it's 12,000 watts and 48 speakers. Like they had this crazy system. like, so we looked at each other and was like, yeah, I'm not making up those guitar caps. That's obvious. He was like, yeah, you don't need to do that. So in a situation like that, it's like, all right, let me just, you know, just try to make sure the drums and the vocals can keep up with the guitar. So in those situations, yeah. Or like sometimes, even if a band has maybe little too loud of guitars, where I'm not really pushing it into the main speakers, I might still mic it up just for the purpose that I can now send that into monitors for somebody on like the drums or the other side of the stage, like, hey, can I hear him better? I can still use the microphone as a monitor, you know, so.

    So you use like said a bunch of stuff that makes you think like so I'm a drummer You know and I'm doing my sound check and I answer things like should I be hitting my snare drum as hard as I hit it when I'm playing or Should I be like so like you want me to like give you my maximum like this is what it's gonna be otherwise you have to adjust it later and How much adjustment do you do? Like, do you add any EQ to the bass drum? Like, bass drum is just fucking shitty tuned, because I imagine a lot of bands roll in there, and they've been on tour, and they haven't adjusted their bass drum head, maybe ever. You know, they put it on and said, fuck it, it's good. Like, do you have to deal with EQ for all those different things? All the time, yeah. first, before I forget, to give you what I would say, from a sound guy's perspective, the best way to check a drum is I want to hear everything. I want you to do some soft hits and go, da-da-da-da-da-da! I want to hear some fast rolls, some ghost notes, because I want to hear how it sounds when it's full volume. And I'm also using a lot of gates to try to help cut bleed to make the mix sound cleaner. Gotcha.

    I have my gate set too high and you hit softly and I don't hear it, that's gonna, you you're gonna lose some important information. Like a lot of drummers that play with ghost notes, you have to know to turn your gate a little less set, like a little, the sensitivity down so it can get those. So like in an ideal world, this is for all drummers out there, you know, try to give a round robin. Like definitely like do not, like do not skip out on the heaviest hits you got. Cause that's really, I need to make sure you're not clipping. You know, I don't want to make sure you hit it as hard as you can. It blows the whole system out because it's too loud. But give me some. But you could get a good guy. You know, like, give them a little bit of a little bit the dynamics that you hear in a drum set. Yeah, which is fine. Yeah, well, it. It's fine in the sense like, I mean, if you just did that, I'll be fine. You know what I mean? But if you really were like, I'm trying to be like the most like helpful I can, that would probably be the best way to it. You'll hear a lot of drummers, go, bah, bah, bah, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do you ever give drummers advice?

    Like you just gave me great advice now. Do you ever give them advice like hey, you you've never like new drummers or even people that are like, you just have a feeling they don't know what they're doing. They've never been mic'd before. like hey, this is the best way to give me a sound check or do just kind of let it go and see what they do? I usually try to and that's that's also that differs back to like the producers a studio engineer side of me because when I'm recording a band and I have to I like it really really really matters how good everything sounds like not to say live and live is just as important but you know recording it's permanent you hear it once and that's how it is forever so I will be instructing drummers all the time in the studio like okay you're you're hitting these these shells way too soft, man. Like you gotta smack them, because the tone of those drums doesn't come out until you have the whole shell ringing. But then like, you know, there's also drummers that like, they're always 100%. And sometimes the velocity dynamics is important in drumming.

    This is why, you know, there's a lot of like a lot of talk these days with newer software drums and stuff, about how, know, MIDI drums have come so far, and you don't need to record real drums. And it's like, the big thing you notice it, I do too. And the big thing you notice is like the, velocity of the hits is so important. And it's something that human like you're not hitting the same, the drum the same time every time. If you were your robot, not, it's not real. I mean, you could look at all the marks on my drums and you can see that I'm hitting at different places every time. And there's always fluctuations. My arm's getting a little tired. Something happened. My brain wandered for a moment. It should happen. Dude, even just the sound of your left and your right stick are different because you have a dominant hand. And like, hard to program that into fake drums. But anyway, I give those tips. Yeah. so, know, another question. is like me just like, know, things I've been wanting to ask sound people forever. I know when I've been in band, my guitarist always had like... their sound. They've got their triple rectifier. They know what they wanted to sound like.

    You put that mic up to it. You're not just giving volume to the PA. You are adjusting it, right? So are like, are you adjusting the guitar sound that my guitarist spent hours and money developing to make it sound right? And going, yeah, this is what you're going to sound like tonight. Motherfucker. Okay, so that's a really good question. Because with EQ on a guitar, yeah, you can definitely totally change the way a guitar amp sounds. But at the end of the day, you are actually just EQing the way the microphone sounds, not the amp. So I don't really, most of the time, especially as a guitar player, I've always joked, I got the word tone in my name. I love guitar tone, you know what I mean? Yeah! I'm a sucker for it So when I hear a good amp and a good tone, I'm not fucking with it.

    The only thing I do is The way a microphone works on a speaker is sometimes there'll be certain frequencies in the audio world a lot of times we call them whistle frequencies you'll hear like a Like very finely in the in the sound so I'll find that frequency and just like cut that one frequency out And there might be a couple of them like that, you know But I'll do that I have had admittedly, you know, a band comes in and their tone is like, there's no low end. It's all treble and harsh. hurts your ears. And I, yeah, sometimes I might go in there and like boost a little low end just to try to balance it out and help them out. But usually it's better to just kind of talk to them and say, Hey, your tone. Cool. But like it's, is a little bit harsh. Maybe if you just like bring the treble down and like boost your mids a little bit. Some, and some people get a little defensive about that because yeah, they, did take their time. And then some people like genuinely like, dude, thank you for telling me that. I always wonder why my tone sounded weird. Like they just didn't know. So I don't think it's weird, but.

    there's a band I love live but I can't listen to their records because there's something about the frequency that they record their albums at that it actually causes like the sides of my head the temples to hurt and I'm like I don't know why this is happening to me and I was like it's it's a dog whistle like I don't hear anything but like it just hurts and I'm like damn Yeah. I love this band live, every time I put on the record, maybe it's something like what you were just describing there, it's some sort of weird tone they're hitting that just doesn't work for my ears. Yeah, that's, mean, that's a real thing. There are, there are definitely frequencies that just like are harsher to listen to. Um, and you know, you'll see it a lot with mass, especially with mastering engineers, but also the mix engineers, they'll, they'll know exactly what those frequencies are. like right off the, right off the gate. They listen, they listen to a mix for 15 to 30 seconds and they go, Oh yeah, I got to fix all these things. And a lot of times it's those because you got to make sure there's like listener comfort in the recording world.

    We've been in this thing called the loudness wars for years now. if you look at, I've seen a comparison of waveforms of recordings from the 50s and 60s and then into the 80s and then into the 2000s and currently. they went from these dynamic waveform shaped songs to just this wall, straight brick of song. And it's like, Everything's just trying to be louder and more slamming and like trust me. I mean, I love loud pumping mixes But it is interesting because when you have to bring something wall of sound? Is that what that is? Okay, see, I know a little bit, not much. I like in all the years I've been doing it, I should know more about this, but I just have no knowledge. I was just watching you and I'm like, okay, this is so, yeah. Because all of your shows, and there won't be anyone, they're like. and there'll be a PA and the club doesn't have anyone that does it and you bring your own mics and they're like, can you run this? I'm like, I mean, yeah, I know how to turn it on. And like, I can make sure that like, you know, I was like, so basic, so, so very basic. I don't know what EQ to put on the vocal mics. Like I, don't ask me to do anything like that. I can do volume control.

    You know, my Josh, you know, Danger Room, he'll send me stuff like, he's like, hey, I know I just sent you a mix two hours ago, but here's a different mix. What do you think? I'm like, You can't even really hear the difference. can't tell a difference and I feel so bad because he's so excited about what he did. I'm like... Yeah. you know, it's funny because that is like a real thing in like in the audio community. It's something we joke about a lot, but it isn't it isn't totally talked about in like the world. It's like the average listener doesn't like to have the ability to pinpoint weird frequencies and like to be able to just like listen to a song and you're only listening to the way that snare drum sounds or the bass guitar sounds like it takes a little bit of practice in like training to get that with your ears. And like, it's, it's something anybody can learn, but, and you don't normally just have that ability. Like some people are born like, you know, savant kind of stuff, but like most of the time it's something that's learned. So it's funny cause you, you become your biggest critic when you listen to your mix and you're like, uh, it's good.

    But like, I know that I got like this list of 10 problems, but you show 20 friends and they're all like, dude, this sounds fucking awesome. And you're like, but what's wrong with it? And they're like, What do you mean what's wrong with it? you're like, I need someone to just tell me I'm not crazy. That's really what it is. Because I'm hearing something and it sounds a little fucked up. But then that's kind of what's cool about the audio world is it becomes very closely knit. like, know, I mean, I couldn't say I'm friends with everybody, but I know a lot of people and it's very easy to like have those people where you know you can send them a mix of a song and they'll be like really, oh, dude, that sounds great. But Something is weird with your snare drum. Like I'm hearing it and you're like, thank you. Like I was hearing it too and I'm glad somebody told me because nobody else hears it. no no, seriously, because the band's like, yeah, it sounds fine. I can tell if a guitar's out of tune, but I can't tune a guitar. So my ears are not skilled in that way. So okay, you're in a band, you're playing shows, do you walk in and walk in, people's like, hi, I'm Tony.

    I'm a sound guy, so you better sound good tonight, because I know what it should sound like. It's happened Most of the time the people that are in the audio world They're actually the most under like it's like I just did a show last night and one of the bands playing After the set the guy tarplay was like, yeah, we work at this venue in Melbourne and like I'm the sound guy there so like thank you for doing a good job and like, know, I wouldn't I wouldn't say anybody was difficult, but there was one of the bands just like having a hard time with monitors and they were like trying to get me to turn it up more and I'm like trying to do this for them unlike the classic sound guy of like pretending I try to do it but the problem is is the reason that most sound guys will not actually turn anything up is because they already know that you are at 100 % and if you go past that you're gonna start having a mess of other problems but I'll try and see if I can figure it out and then you know you get a little feedback in the monitor so I'm like sorry I gotta take it back it's not gonna work causes that issue?

    Because you know, I've gone to enough shows in my life, a couple hundred every year I would probably, a couple hundred bands I see every year, right? And I'm like, yeah, there's always been, says turn up the monitor, can I get more vocals in here? And is that something that like actually can be fixed or how does that problem occur? Or is the band just like, I don't know. Like I know as a drummer I like, okay. Okay, well, every one of those things is a real thing that's happened. A lot of times, like Will's Pub, for instance, I love that venue. It's a great small club. It's like the energy and the vibes there, especially when the shows are packed out. It's like I've never had a better time at shows. But it is a small stage and basically like a little clamshell. You know what I mean? Like the stage is just like boxed into a corner and... The way that sound travels and bounces off of walls and stuff and like low end accumulates in the corners. When you have a lot of microphones and speakers on such a small, tight, enclosed space, it becomes more problematic when you start turning things up. Just because your mics are so, you know, I mean, you've, you've, you've seen it.

    You put the microphone too close to a speaker. starts doing that. Well, the more that you turn things up, the more you start adding gain, which is, you know, just like a guitar amp. It starts adding like harmonics and color to it, the more that it's going to start being more sensitive to that happening from further distances. And at venue like Will's, you've got the stage here, you've got monitors here, and the main speakers are right here. So like, they're all within five feet of that microphone at any given time. And like, you don't see that problem on bigger stages, because the microphones are much farther away from this shit. So it becomes a problem in like, you know, A lot of bands have been starting to switch over to getting like in-ear monitors and stuff. And that's like really like probably one of the best workarounds to this. You know, you can get there. There are definitely ways to work around it and have better monitoring and louder monitoring with speakers on the floor. But at the end of the day, like even at Wills, our wedges for the monitors are pretty good in loud speakers. think they're like a thousand watt speakers. And there have been times where I like.

    I've had a band want me to turn something up so loud and like, I can hear the monitor louder than I can hear the main speakers. You know what I'm saying? And they're sitting there like, I can't hear it. They're sitting here saying, I can't hear it enough. And I'm looking at them like, I don't want to be addicted, but like, I can hear it from over here. How can you not hear it? You know, like, but in that. I think, you know, it varies from artist to artist, but you I think sometimes musicians tend to like, when they're in their zone, it's easy for them to like almost block that out and they don't realize they're blocking it out. So then they're like, I can't hear it. Like I've had this in the studio. I've had this in the studio with drummers a lot in particular, drummers who are not, uh, like comfortable and used to playing to a metronome. I've had drummers, I have the metronome in their ear and it was like, like smack in their ear. Right. And they're like still falling off. I'm like, can you hear the metronome? And they're like, honestly, no, I can't hear it. And I'm like, okay, there's no way you're not hearing it.

    What you're doing is you were unintentionally like blocking it out. And so like that kid, that can be the case. Sometimes it also is not even that, you know, uh, another problem, like at a small venue, like wills you're standing here and you've got this floor monitor on the floor and the mic's here, but really that, that, that speaker is pointing at your chest or like even lower, like your stomach. Really, like ideally that speaker should be like out here so when it's pointing it's coming sounds traveling at your head. But we don't have enough room on the stage to put this monitor that far forward in front of you. And everybody wants as much room on stage. Yeah, yeah, that's so nice. Which is funny because a lot of drummers don't even use it anymore. I love it, like 90 % of the time I play shows that don't have drum monitors and then the stages are so small that the amps are in front of me almost. And I'm like, yeah, and if I know the songs well enough and I have muscle memory, I only need to hear a little bit here and there to know what I'm doing.

    But like I joined a band like a year and a half ago and then we did our first show and didn't do a sound check and then they couldn't hear each other and I couldn't hear them and I'm like I have no muscle memory because I got nothing. I'm just gonna slot my way through this nonsense. But I love it when I can actually hear even if it's just guitar, know, or if it's, even vocals can help me. I just need a pinpoint to like help me like know where I'm at in case I like lose focus or you know, it's all I need. Your stick slips a little bit and you gotta like fumble and catch it and you're like, uh did I just miss a beat? I don't remember, you know? Exactly, like, I dropped my stick, I grabbed another one pretty quickly, but where are we now? So, did I miss the transition into the chorus or are we still in the verse? Alright. Plus, I mean, the other thing is like the whole reason all of us started playing in bands is those first like early days when we started jamming in like a garage or whatever. You're working, you're vibing off each other. You're playing off of each other's feelings. And so if you can't hear each other, you're not really meshed together as a band.

    You know, you're just all individual musicians that are hopefully playing at the same time. What's like when I talk to Don Ziantaro, like a lot of what he does is live recordings of the bands. Like starting back with like Teen Idols and Minor Threat, he's like, I still like to do it that way. He's like, because... it's, you know, it's comforts. Like you're having a band practice and you're playing with each other. He was like, you know, if you're the band that doesn't want to do it that way, though, he like, it's fine. If you want to lay down drum tracks, then bass tracks, then guitar track, that's what you're comfortable with. But it's like, the song has to be there. But it's like feeding off of each other. He's like, that's the best part. So. So. in the studio world, when a band that's really tight live, even if it's a totally isolated live recording, those live recordings tend to just be the best stuff than individually tracking, because it's the same thing. They're feeding off each other. So what's the biggest issue you've ever had with the band? Has the band ever gotten really angry and been like, fuck you sound guy or stormed off stage? Have you ever had to deal with that?

    I guess a little bit. I've never had anything where people are too, too upset with me. have had people come at me with attitudes before they even said hello, which is kind of annoying, but I get it, know, because being a musician, I've played in bands where I show up to a venue, we're all like, hey, yeah, we're excited to play show. The sound goes like, so you got two guitar players tonight? you know, it's like. yeah. I've definitely dealt with the grumpy sound guy. Yes. and I'm sure as a drummer you get it the most, especially, God forbid you have an extra tom. The sound, some sound guys like, lose, dude, sound guys lose their mind over having to set up an extra tom, like, and I don't have that approach. So I've had people kind of come in and I'm like, yo, what's up? I'm telling you and they're like, hey. And I'm like, okay, well, you know. It's gonna be a good show tonight, man. Like, let's, know. I've had people come a little standoffish at first, once we get through it, they're usually happy. There was one time, it was actually really sad, there was a band that the guitar player was having an issue with his wireless or something.

    And it was causing problems during sound checks, so was stressed about it. And then before the set, thought he got it figured out, so he's like, we should be good. And then during the set, I went through the first song and like fucked up and like lost the guitar. He was so embarrassed and so upset. He stormed, he threw his guitar and stormed off stage. And it was so sad because like, you know what the crazy part is, is they were crushing it. Even though that problem was going on, they were crushing it and the crowd was like vibing and like they played one song and ended it because he was so mad about the technical difficulty. And I remember feeling like, fuck, like I feel like I should have, hopefully could have been able to do something. He came up later, like, dude, you know that wasn't your fault, right? And I was like, I know, but like, I still feel bad. Like you could have just faked it through the show and just like laugh about it. Like, we're having some issues, but like, fuck it, we're rock and roll. And he just, he was just, I think it was just too much built up of like, you wanted it to be this perfect show and it didn't go perfect.

    you know, that's, was, was, I felt so sad about that I was like, man, like they were like, the people were so mad that they didn't keep playing. Cause they were like, Keep going. It was awesome. The crowd was loving it. And it was like, damn like his amp instead of doing the wireless? Didn't he have a... I mean all he needs is a guitar cord. can't remember. It might not have even been a wireless. It might have been like some people have these setups now where they use a laptop as their guitar amp and it runs into an interface. It might have been that. I can't remember. was something, you had something technical going on with some more advanced guitar stuff. That's all I remember. It is hard. If you don't have a guitar, it's the only guitar in the band. Guitar is kind of important, I've heard, in rock music. I had a show once where I was borrowing someone's kit and the bass drum head broke into the second song. I was like, that's it. I guess I'm just playing without a bass drum the rest of the set. And I just did, and I was irritated as fuck. But... What was I gonna do? Stop the set, bring on a new bass drum. That's just not gonna happen.

    So I just sucked it up Buttercup and played with a broken bass drum. we had that my band, did a tour. This is actually one of our first tours, but like right before COVID happened. We were playing at some like house show basement show in Philly. And it was this place they called it the Carlisle house was on Carlisle ad or something. Cool spot. Shout out Tom Kinka. He was the dude that rented it and had shows, but there was like a house kit there and same thing happened like in the first song, the beater went right through the bass drum head. It was funny because it was one of those situations where our drummer was like, he won't use a house kit. He has like a nice DW collector's kit. was like, really? You he paid a lot of money for it. He brings it on the road. He wants to play his drum set. And I was like, dude, look, it's a Philly house show in a basement. know, Philly apartments are like this fucking wide and the stairs are like death stairs. Like you don't want to bring your drums up and down that shit, bro. It's fine. And then the beater went through and the whole set. He's just pretending with this fucking putt. There's no kick drum, but it's a house show anyway.

    It's a house show anyway. The kick wasn't even mic'd up, so you could not hurt. probably didn't hear it anyway, but it was funny that that shit sucks, but you got it. You just got to play it through it. You just got to play through it. All right, so do you have any like crazy stories? Like, you know, I figure between, you know, even if it's only two or three nights a week, you see a lot of bands and you have to have seen some shit, right? Yeah. I mean, the probably one of the I don't even think it's crazy. It's just like when you tell the story, people are like, they did what? But there's this there's this band, they're actually apparently coming back through Orlando again, they're doing a tour soon. I've done I've done their show twice now. It's like almost like a once a year they make it down to Florida. It's been called Southern Culture on the Skids. They are I forget I forget what they they have. They have their own, they, they, hold on, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look it up so I don't say this, this wrong. They, they have coined, uh, their own genre. Cause they do like, it's like rockabilly surf rock, but with some country influence. They, uh, let's see.

    Doesn't say I forget where well, I don't want to do too But they had they they I think they just say it the show they coined themselves like hillbilly Surf rock or something like that because it's like a little little bit of kind of country bluegrassy influence But it's like super surf rocky very pump, but they do they have a song called like fried chicken and They have and it's it's it's not even a writers thing. It's like part of their production they require this at every venue that the venue or the promoter provides them with like a bucket or box of fried chicken. And they play the song and then they have like fans that like know them come up, they give them the box and they're on stage playing a song. These people got the chicken and they're just like handing out chicken, throwing them to people, throwing drumsticks. So you're just like sitting there at the sound booth and this band's crushing it by the way. They're very tight. And you just see. chicken wings and drumsticks flying over this crowd of people. People are reaching out trying to catch it. And you'll see people, they're just like happy. They're taking bites out of the chicken.

    And at the end of the night, when you, at the end of the night, you know, like you've heard of Guar, of course, you know how those, you know how those shows go where at end of the night, there's like blood and piss all over the floor. Well, this is like, just like trampled on chicken bones and fried chicken. And it's just such a, it's such a funny thing. And apparently, apparently there's there is some backstory to it, I guess the that you stab a keyboard player and his whole thing was he wanted the chicken for like himself to eat. And he would like put it on on the table next to him at the keyboard and he'd be like, just eating it like it wasn't even supposed to be like a gimmick. It was just like the dude was hungry. You know what I mean? Like. But it started to become a thing. They thought it was funny. So they requested this every night. So he got the chicken for himself on their rider. And then I guess I'm assuming he's no longer with the band or maybe he just doesn't tour anymore. now the whole thing is they just throw the fried chicken out to the crowd. It's just like I'd never seen it.

    It's funny because like when this happens, they hype it up like they're doing like one of those little interlude songs. They're doing the drum roll and shit. And they're like, alright, this next song is called Fried Chicken. Who's hungry for some chicken? These people come up, they start throwing an F into the whole room. Everybody's either sticking their hand up to grab chicken, or they got their phone in the air because they just can't believe what they're seeing and they need to record it because they're like, if I tell somebody about this, they're not going to believe me. Yeah, that was definitely an interesting one. So, you know, you're describing their sound and that made me think, you know, every band has to sound different on stage and not only do you have to deal with a, you know, normally like a three or four band bill and adjust to like different sounds, but do you ever like do homework beforehand, like to get an idea of like what a band sounds like if they're like super weird or like, no, like, I mean, I mean, sometimes you know what a band's gonna sound like by their name, you know, like Goat Horror is gonna be a metal band, you know. yeah, I do that.

    it sometimes yeah, sometimes I'll just look at the flyer and I can kind of tell what what it's going to be like, you know, when it's a punk show, you can pretty much tell by the flyer it's going to be a punk show or metal show. Same thing. But yeah, I mean, a lot of times what I'll do is it's I don't do like a ton of homework, but I'll just on the way to the venue, I might just like go on Spotify and find the bands and listen to a song or two. just to get a vibe of what kind of band it is. It also helps me be a little prepared, because if I hear they have some crazy keyboards and saxophones in the song, I'm like, okay, we're gonna have to set up some extra stuff. If they're a really pop-oriented band, where there's a lot of production and synths and percussion and stuff, I can probably assume they're gonna have some backtracks, and when I mix them, I need to make sure that that stuff stays prominent and not buried in the mix. Yeah, I've got a, it seems like it would make sense. I have a band I'm recording in January called Negative Racks, like a noise band. And they also have like a, I don't know if you'd call it a slide guitar.

    It's like, you know, it sits up on a tabletop and I was like, you know, I had to let the sound guy know. like, you really need to listen to some of this stuff before you come in because it's not your traditional chugga chugga punk rock thing. It's a lot of dissonance out of the guitar and it's all over the place. Yeah. sound and recording it both is going to be a bit tricky I think. Yep, some extra stuff to set up and understand. So was it hard for you to do the stuff like at Florida Underground Fest? Because it was a lot of bands and it did change. mean, I guess it did stick within the punk rock, sky metal, but is there enough variation in there? Or those bands make it like a little tricky to get the sound? Because you only had a little bit of time. Like it was a 20, 30 minute changeover between every band. Yeah, I don't say it's super tricky. Most of the time, the bands... This is something that is interesting. Like, is a little bit of my job is important to reflect the sound of the band. But I really like, it's not my job to try to manipulate a band sound to make it sound better than they are.

    Really, my job is to just make sure it's louder and like everybody's audible and it's not like harsh on your ears, you know? Sure. So really like most of the job in, especially like something for Underground Fest where there's a lot of bands, it does help that the bands are all similar genres. like it's pretty similar to expect that all the drums gonna have a similar drum, like big punk drum sound. Cause that's really the big thing is like you can make a band sound way different just by how you mix the drums. You know what I mean? Like you can have your drums slamming and aggressive and have some big reverb that makes it sound huge. And that might not be the right sound for a band that's doing a funk thing. You know what I mean? So sometimes you need it more tight and dry and intricate. So that's the big one, but usually with a lot of shows, it's pretty similar throughout the night. So really your job is just to make sure that everything sounds good. If they're having technical difficulties, you're fixing it. you're making sure that they feel comfortable on stage with their monitorings.

    Like you end up doing almost more of a monitor engineer job while just making sure the front of houses, like nothing's getting screwed up throughout the night. And also like the hardest part truthfully in those situations is managing the cable spaghetti because we have so many mics and like, you know, there's at one point I had like six vocal mics on stage because it was like three singers and like a bunch of horn players for a ska band. So like the guy would grab the mic and he'd like move it over here and play the set over here. Then the next band would grab the mic and move it over here. And then, you know, all of sudden now, like I'm, I had these mics like on my console ordered like from left to right is one through five. Right. So I knew if I needed to adjust one, this one, now they're all moved around. So I'm like, uh-oh, which one is which mic is which, you know? So having to manage that and like, try to be mindful in between bands is also like, get like, uh, colored mic cords. Be like, okay, this like... would actually be very smart, truthfully, because then you can do whatever. That's the blue mic. I mean, that'd be weird though.

    Like I could just like a rainbow of color chords. I don't know. Black just seems normal, but like maybe just a little bit of colored, maybe just some colored duct tape around the end somewhere. Just a little bit. I mean, I've seen people use colored colored XORs before. Black's the standard just because it honestly it camouflages on the stage when they're on the floor so you don't see the mess of wires. Exactly, it's like no one wants to see that although like you know I I really love will stage because it's just in my mind It's like just the right height I go to a fair number of shows here some places and when they're sold out or you know they got a hundred hundred and fifty people and the stage is only like You know six inches off the ground if I'm standing in the back. I'm not seeing anything You can't see anything and it's like that frustrates the hell out of me. I was like And I'm like, maybe they don't have it up higher because they want to avoid stage diving. But like, Wills doesn't really have any problem with that. They have the sign up there and I'm sure it happens now and then. But like, overall, it's pretty minimal.

    But like, I don't understand why venues don't do stages as much. what is your experience? I know this is taken away from the sound guy thing, but like, I don't feel like stages, like, because that's what about, is it about two feet high? That Wills? wills? Uh, honestly, it's probably like three. It's pretty, pretty high. Maybe two and a half, maybe two and a half, but it's, pretty high. Yeah. I mean, when I come up to it, it's, like, it's like right at my waistline usually. Yeah. but I can also lean against it then, right? So like if people start like doing their circle pitting, like I don't have to like worry about bumping into the singer's face. Instead, I can like put my hands on the, you know, hold myself up. Like, but that does not seem to be the standard. The standard seems to be like the two inch or three inch stage. Yeah, that's definitely also it might just genuinely be a cost thing, you know, to build a stage that tall requires more lumber and you you have to build it way sturdier because if it's that high up, you can't have it breaking or someone could fall through it.

    You know, a little a little four to six inch stage on the ground could be could be built frugally with like some two by fours and a sheet or some not even two hours, some pallets and some plywood, you know what I mean? Like if you wanted to. or yeah, just some two by fours and call it a day. And it depends, know, like some of the venues like that don't have like super full shows all the time, like especially if it's like a open mic night or acoustic night or something like that, or like comedy night, it might be a little awkward to have someone so high up on the stage if there's the rooms not like crowded with a sea of people, you know? So there may be some merit to that too, but. I know... I agree, think stages should be at least tall enough where you can see people's faces over the other heads, you know?

    minimum I don't want to pay to go to a show and Be in the back which sometimes I prefer the back sometimes I don't want to be up front and get punched around you know I am you know Yeah, I'm nearing 50 It depends on the show you know it's like I was at Fest once and my buddy was walking up front he had a couple beers and You know it's like almost the last show of the night, and he's like. I'm gonna go check out asshole parade. I was like nah, Come back with me. He's like, well, I was like, you don't want to be up front for Asshole Parade. Like, he's older than I am. And I'm like, there's going be some crowd killing. He's like, you think so? I was like, come back, sir. Come back. Stand in the back with me and watch. It's a plenty high enough stage. We'll see the band just fine. Just trust me on this one. just trust me. You know, oh, speaking of speaking of funny crowds though, one of the funniest things I ever saw, I was, I was on tour doing sound for my friends in this band, Capstan, and we were, we were supporting this band, the Empire. And so we were playing some pretty big venues. were doing like House of Blues sized venues, but we were in Tampa or St. Pete at Janice.

    Have you ever been there? I have, saw a bale and hot water music there. I think I saw the circle jerks there too. That might have been the same show. Janus is cool because it's kind of like an outdoor stage in this little confined area. I remember one of the funniest things that I weirdly have never seen this before. It seems like something you should have seen at a Warped Tour something. But during set for during Calf Sand set, hadn't gotten dark out yet. So it still felt like an outdoor. When it gets dark, you kind of forget you're outside a little bit. But during the set, it was still light out. And there was like a big mosh pit. But then like 20 people were following each other almost doing like a Congo, Congo line. And then they all sat down like in between each other's legs and like they were in a giant robo and they all started like rowing together like this. And they made this like huge robo on the floor in the middle of the pay note. This is the funniest thing I've ever seen. I got a video of it somewhere. It was so cool. I was at a show earlier this year where everyone started like hardcore waltzing.

    Like they were doing the waltz, but like as they like did different moves, they were throwing their elbows and it was like, I was like, huh, okay. don't, that's different. That's different. I'm not sure what waltz right. They did it with the hand and they walked around. It was Renaissance fair dancing but with violence. Yeah. It was very interesting. I was like, what is this that's happening right now? Sounds entertaining to at least to say the least. I remember growing up in in Burlington, Vermont, there was a lot of like hardcore and punk shows and there was a time where like some of the kids that were like really into the moshing scene, they like started this like mosh crew. They called it the barefoot crew. and they're all taking their shoes off and going into the mosh pit barefoot. It was was like, was like, was like a asserting your dominance kind of situation. Like don't step on my foot because I'm gonna swing my fist at you if you do. it was like, it was pretty interesting. Like, you know, we were all like 16, you were young kids, like listening to some of these heavy bands and these guys are just in there barefoot. Just like, don't give a fuck.

    And I was like, that's impressive, man. Yeah, I would definitely not go into something like that barefoot. Even nowadays, I sometimes get my foot stepped on. like, I remember when I had steel-toed combat boots I used to wear to shows, and I never had to worry about that. I was also the asshole kid that jumped off the stage with steel-toed boots, and I would jump off feet first, because I'd do the back flip or whatever, and I'm like, god, what an asshole I was. man. Did you hear about that? There was this band speaking of stage diving. is an interesting one. I don't know how to feel about it, but this band called Trophy Eyes. don't know if you probably, you might've heard about this. It was all over the internet. heard of the band, I don't think I know the story you're about to tell me, so. They're an Australian band, they're a cool band. The singer, apparently this venue, I don't remember where it is, it was in Baltimore, I don't know, I don't wanna say the wrong place. They apparently are notorious for having signs of work for no crowd surfing, and the singer, I guess, decided he was just feeling himself during the set, and he decided to stage dive.

    And the worst case scenario happened. He landed on some girl's head, and like, It like, I don't know if it broke her neck or gave her a spinal injury, but she's, she's, she's paralyzed now. And it's, it's, it's been all over the internet right now. And like a lot of like venues have been discussing, like the day after it happened, we'll put up new signs in the venue. was like, no stage diving. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's unfortunate, uh, because those are some situations you don't really know how to like really navigate. Cause this, this poor girl, uh, She's like paralyzed now, like in, I'm pretty sure like in a wheelchair paralyzed. And I just saw like, they just, there's a new article going around about how she's like filing a lawsuit against the singer, the venue and the promoter. And it sucks because you know, there's a lot of people that are like pointing fingers, like, wow, like, why would you do this? Why would you sue them? And it's like, I, I, I, I feel for both sides of the instance, you know, cause She's probably got hit with some crazy hospital bills. Her life's never gonna be the same.

    like, you, like the hospital bills alone, like we all know how expensive that shit is. what kind of, what modifications you're left with you're gonna have to have? You can't drive, you can't get upstairs, you know. but it is unfortunate because like that's probably going to be the end of that venue. You know what mean? If they, if they win this lawsuit, they're not, they're going to be screwed. Like we had one in Orlando called backbooth and something similar happened. Yeah. Something similar happened. Uh, somebody, somebody got like really hit bad in the face. to get like their jaw wired or something. Is that why it changed into Soundgarden afterwards or whatever it was called or sounds? it might be, I'm not sure the exact details. I just know like, like that person had to basically like try to recoup the money for hospital bills and they probably ended up putting them under. I don't know for sure, you know, if that's why, but the timeline made it seem like that's what happened. And those situations suck. Cause it's like, we all as like show goers love to camaraderie and like stage diving and crowdsurfing is part of that. Moshing is part of that, but it is weird.

    Cause when you have to start When those things happen, have to start wondering, like, well, how do you shift blame to make sure nobody gets fucked in that? Because it sucks, if the venue gets screwed over in that situation and then you have to shut down, then you have no place to have these shows. And it doesn't even sound like, you know, the venue already didn't allow it, right? And the singer just decided to do it anyway. Yeah, so I mean, I... not like there was a pervasive thing. Like I was at a show in Albany where the stage diving was so excessive that I'm like every like 30 seconds someone was jumping on my head. So I was like, fuck it. And I just moved to the back, a little further back to the left. And I usually videotape one song at every band I see and another videotape and I got my beer and this guy jumps right at me and I'm like. I just turned slightly and let him hit the ground. like, I'm sorry. I'm not dropping my beer. not driving. I moved away to not have anyone jump on me. And you came right at me. And I'm like really pretty far away on the outskirts.

    And I'm like, but yeah, it was like, I don't mind the stage time, but it was getting to the point where I was like, okay, I'm really getting tired of people waving at my fucking head. So. I get that being being like a bigger dude that's taller at a lot of shows like if I'm in the middle of like the big crowd, those I've had shows where like every 30 seconds, I got someone tapping on my back and I turn on like what and they're like, and they want me to like hoist them up. And it's like, okay, the first one or two times, all right, all right, yeah, let's do it. I got you. And then like, I remember there was one show specifically, it must have happened like 12 times. And I was I started to be like, no, Like, I'm trying to enjoy the show and now my back fucking hurts. I'm not here to just lift people up all day. Yeah, there's degrees to it and I also get it. Like when I was younger I probably didn't recognize any of that. When I was 16 or 17 going to a show, I didn't recognize. we're all here having the, you're having just as much fun as I am, right? Let's do this. I mean, I could go to a Fugazi show and not do it because they didn't allow it.

    But if I was at a Sick of It All show, I was tearing shit up. You know, it's like, you know, I can handle whatever vibe the band put out, but like I was definitely the kid that wanted to like move and jump and get on stage and jump off stage. I guess that was the greatest thing in the world to me. But yeah, there could be points. So, I mean, it doesn't sound anywhere else live or just wills? Is that where you're, is that your predominant, like, only place or? No, so I've done a bunch. mean, Wills is where I've done it the most, for sure. Because that's the only place I'm full-time, not full-time, but I'm full-on employed at. But I've done, I've mixed at The Conduit before. I've done a couple shows at The Abbey. I do work at The Beach Room 2. I haven't really done any mixing there, to be honest. I just did a stagehand and monitors shift, but.

    But like when I do touring for an house with bands I've definitely like, you know, we'll just travel and I'll ride with them and I do sound at every venue we're at so I've definitely done a lot of shows now in a lot of different sized rooms and you know seems complicated because you had mentioned how like Wills is like a clamshell so it sounds to me like you've got to figure it out everywhere you go the different room makeup plus I'm assuming the audience size matters too because it absorbs the sound so Yeah. Yeah. And some of the some of the bigger venues I did on the last tour, it was it was very interesting. You know, you're in like a 2000 cap room. And during soundcheck, that room is empty and you soundcheck and it's like so echoey and like you're like, Oh God, this sounds terrible. And then like the room fills out and the show happens. You're like, that sounded awesome. You have to accept that that is going to sound different. Yeah, and have to like, have to remind yourself that. like, okay, this is gonna sound different when the room's full of people. Like, let's rock with it.

    but like, I don't know how different it's gonna sound, because I'm not smart enough to know that, how, if someone wanted to do what you do, like it sounds like you're self-taught. You know, I imagine some people go to schools, but like, what's the most common path that someone says, you know what I really wanna do? I wanna stay up late, five nights a week, record, uh. doing sound checks, watching people drink beer while I don't. But I hear good music and just be part of the music I love. How should they get into this? What would be the best way for someone to do this? Um, well, there's a lot of ways to do it. You know, some people do go to school like Full Sail and Valencia have like, uh, they have like programs for audio, both live sound and studio. And so you could go that route and like the schools usually like can help you get placed into jobs right after. Um, but the other thing is also just like, just being friendly with people that do it already and you know, start like just asking them pointers. Maybe they'll let you shadow like this is, you know, not an open invite because I get, I get tired sometimes, but I I have, I have had a few people now like do that.

    And like, I let them shadow me a few times at wills and like, it's, it's totally fine. I'm never like a dick about it. There are definitely some times where I'm like stressed to the max cause it's like a crazy show, a lot of bands and people are like trying to ask me questions. And I'm like, Can we talk about this later? Like I'm trying to work, like there are a lot of times also where it's like a super chill show and it's like, yeah, if you want to come hang out and like, like learn, like, you know, some guys, you know, it depends on the venue. There are some sound guys that are like, we call them old heads, you know, they've been doing it forever. They usually don't even tell you the real name. They have a stage name. Like my name's lemon. You know, my name is, you know, they have like some weird name, like I'm, I'm cardboard, you know, like. They got some weird stage. It was like it's like a old thing just like bikers did. He just had like a nickname. But yeah, but some guys get a little gatekeepy about it because maybe maybe it's a it's a self preservation thing. They don't want to their job or what. But I don't know. I mean, I don't mind. I don't mind teaching people.

    like it is, you know, it is sometimes feels like it's a little tricky to get started in that if you don't know people to get started. So people ask me all the time, like, like is will's herring and I'm like I don't know I mean I'm just being honest with you I'm one of the few people here I only work a couple days a week so I don't know if they're looking to add more people you know if it was so so busy where I like like we were all the guys working here were like fuck I need a day off you know it'd be a little different but truthfully it's like I only work one or two days a week usually so if that's the case can't imagine they can squeeze that more for other people And you've gotta have that ear, right? Like I was telling you, I like, don't have an ear for that. Maybe I could have trained it. But I remember my community college had like a recording arts, like, know, associate's degree, but I was taking guitar one in high school as a senior year and I was like, all right, I've been playing guitar for a year and I still can't tune my guitar on my own. I'm not sure I'm the right guy to be managing a recording studio in any way, shape, or form.

    for it, but really the biggest thing, think the hardest part of, I think anybody can figure out and have like, you can like, some of the stuff that like, if you're watching me during the show, I'm a little more like very hands on with it. But that's just because I'm like, I'm like, I'm over the top. Like, not to say that people that don't do that are like less or inferior at fighting games, but there are definitely ways to just do a really good show. And keep it really simple and not need to go like super in depth and it's not like it's not a big deal. Um, I just, you know, I'm just always like trying new things. So I just put myself in situations where I keep working. dude, I have really enjoyed talking with you. I'm gonna close out this show with a song and I figured might as well close out with one of yours. So you tell me what overthinker song you'd like me to close out this with. Here's the perfect timing plug. I didn't even think about this. We just put out a song that came out today. So you can play that one. It's called Yes Man. It just came out today. was technically at midnight last night, but brand new song. Awesome, sick. All right, everybody, thanks for coming out.

    This has been Tony Murphy, not Bud, hanging out, talking about doing sound. I learned a lot, I hope you learned a lot, and I really appreciate you all hanging out and listening with DCxPC Live, supporting the Scene motherfuckers. rock on.

  • All right, everybody. Welcome to DCxPC Live presents Scene Support. This is the podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene, the recording engineers, the show promoters, record labels, graphics artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people, graphics artists, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I'm talking about. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY record label documenting the live scene, hardcore punk, ska and metal on short run vinyl.

    I have 30 years playing in hardcore punk bands in DC, Florida, and New York, and I've been booking and promoting shows for just about as long. I've had the privilege of working with a lot of great bands, but I'm really interested in talking to the people behind the bands. Today's guest is Tim Donahue from Phameless Fucking Records in Philadelphia. If I had to pick one label that I brought for most in 2024, it would be Phameless. I've got five records right here to my left that I bought, and that's a lot of fucking vinyl for me to buy because I spend a lot of time putting out vinyl and often can't afford to buy it. a lot of their fucking shit.

    From the sci-fi punk of 13 Cavities to the prog metal of J-Win. And I can't wait to talk to this dude and find out how he does his shit and learn about all he does. What the fuck Tim, how's it going buddy? Good, I've had two glasses of whiskey right before we started this and I'm probably gonna wrap up with an edible before we end of the night. It's that time of year, Well done, sir. I'm fucking stoked to talk to you. Yeah, so okay, so you run a record label like I did some research Far as I could tell the earliest thing I could find on social media Which is how we gauge all history nowadays, and I'm a history teacher is in 2015 was your earliest Facebook post Yeah. is that when the label started?

    Honestly, I feel like the last couple years have all merged together So if you're asking about something ten years ago, like it's pretty hard to keep track of that does sound about right So Okay. I'm gonna say yes But it originally started like so many other like No. tiny shit labels like Nobody put my band stuff out. So was like, alright I'm gonna go into debt and fucking put something on vinyl so I could sit there and say I did it before I died which hopefully is later than sooner, you know? ~ so I also, my first release was a 7-inch with my band and another band. You There was some former students of mine. I used to be a history teacher.

    You So yes, I entirely understand. Hey, I'm gonna put it out myself. Yeah. That's dude, I'm gonna say it's like, it's gotta be like the story, the backstory of like 99.9 % of labels, man. 100%. But how many of them continue and like you're 10 years in and like I said, yeah. I picked up five records from you, four of them came out this year. I don't know how many others came out this year, but that's, I know from experience, that's a lot to fucking put out.

    Yeah, this year, the last two years is actually half the catalog. So I basically like when shit came out of lockdown, I kind of went crazy. So like it was just one of those things where was like, Okay. you know, like there was like that year, two years where there were no shows, you couldn't hear anyone. And it was just like this weird dry spell. Like I tried doing a couple zines and put those out just cause I was bored out of my fucking mind. And the last few years, especially after I started going back to shows again and just seeing people just fucking living life again, I was just blown away with what everyone's doing, especially the fucking young heads, man.

    They're just doing so much cool, Yeah. weird, intense shit. And it's just the best thing in the world, And it just, it just soothes my old soul, man. It's just fucking great. And I love that. Like, you know, I get that the whole pandemic, mine started during the pandemic because I started doing live streams and I recorded them and put them out on vinyl. And then afterwards, I kind of continue doing this now that the pandemic's over because I have a taste for this and I want to keep it going.

    Yeah. So, you know, for all the bad of the pandemic, like it made you appreciate what you had, you know, before it shut down. So. Yeah, man. Good. no, no, please. So, I looked at your catalog and it's mostly Philly bands with a couple Jersey bands. Are you like doing the whole Discord thing where you like, we only release the bands in our local area? Or like if someone came to you and said, hey, I'm from Tanzania and I want you to put my shit out and I'm gonna tour the US.

    So it's one of those things where it's like I have to hear it live, you know, because it's like I've heard and I've had people send Yeah. me stuff they recorded themselves and it's cool and all but like We've both seen heard so many good records and been disappointed by bands and vice versa So many times. and it's one of those things where it's like how do you capture that fucking lightning in a bottle where there's this band that's just like you hear and you're like I have to that's really what comes down to is it's like I see this band and I'm just like I have to get this out in the world. And that's kind of like what happened with a lot of these bands. Like, Chemical X, like I saw them opening for my friends band in the weirdest, creepiest Polish club basement I've ever been to.

    Like everything was fucking purple with velvet like curtains everywhere. Dude, that's the one. They're so fucking good. I got it right here. got Chemical X for those of you listening, They're babies, dude. Dude. holding it up. All right, keep going. Dude, it's a fuc- and- You got one of the last copies, I'm down to like nine copies and we're not repressing that one. So, but like I went to see my buddy Pat Society from like Fuck yeah. the band Violent Society, he a new project.

    Yeah, fine with society and he was cranked up really high and yep. Cranked up, yep, and he's in a band now called Battaglia Zoska. And I went to go check them out and I just, X opened and I was like, the fuck is this? Like these four guys just, you know, never been to Philly before and they just fucking unloaded and it was just perfect. It just blew me away and it just completely robbed, maybe played 12 songs, maybe 25 minutes, no bullshit, just. balls out and it was just fucking great.

    And you know, that's the type of shit I like to see, especially from younger bands, because it's like, holy shit, where did they get this from? You know? And it's the same thing with like, I did a couple records with this band called Friend, and the first time I saw them, I was working door at a bar in Philly called Century. Like, great little bar, yeah, it's my favorite dive. Yep, I know, Century. Yep. Like, it's so great. But you know. That was October of 2021.

    It was the first time, 2021 or 2022. Like I said, last few years are a blur. Where I saw them and it was just like, you know, these three kids walk in. I don't even know they're old enough to drink. And they're just maybe, they probably weigh like 250 pounds between the three of them. They ask to borrow everyone's gear. And then they just, everything gets cranked up to 10 and it's just fucking out there. And it's fantastic. And they're weird. Perfect and it's just like I'm fucking jealous.

    And you saw it. Yep. Yeah Well, I mean, you mentioned the live, right? And I think the first time I heard of your label, and I don't feel so bad now that you've really just cranked it the last two years, is I was down playing the fire in Philly and I played with 13 cavities and a cymbal. And. Mmm. I'm old friends with Chuck or Matt whatever you want to call him. I still call him Chuck. When he was in the Richmond area and was in Yeah. I live with zombies and then Botox party so him and I go back way way way long time ago.

    But I saw 13 Cavendas like this shit is dope. So when their record came out, was like, I'm going to fucking pick it up. I enjoyed seeing this band. And I know that what I'm going to hear, if it even captures part of what I enjoyed live, is going to be fucking sick. And then the same thing happened. I saw Chemical X. They came up to New Windsor, New York. They played an outsider show at a VFW Hall thing. And I was like, this is rad. And I was like, not always is rad, but it's on that fucking Phameless records label.

    So I'm going to pick this up too. So I get it. Dude, Yeah, man, I lucked out. It's just that they're coming out of the woodwork here. It's so weird. Like everyone's just so- It always seems like it's just got so much happening right now. Yeah. It does. It's weird because there's not a lot of places to play, but there's a lot going on. Yeah, yeah, I you've got fire, you've got century, maybe some health shows. Kung Fu Nectar. Is there other venues that I'm not aware of? yeah.

    So like there's a couple good venues. So outside of the big places, you got Kung Fu Nectar, which is great. You have Silk City, which is fucking small. It's fun. There used to be a really cool place. I wish it was still around called JR's in South Philly, but that's Creep Records does some shows. Eric's fucking amazing. Okay? Yes, yes, creep, I met them at Camp Punksylvania. Eric seems like a really great dude. Yeah. Dude, he's helped me out so much.

    He's just fucking directing me of how to really put out a record or how to work with bands and stuff. Solid dude. Absolutely great musician. Solid dude. Ortliebs, which is nerf on place. They're leaning really hard into selling hot dogs to Ortliebs, but they do a lot of good shows. I don't understand it. As a fat guy, Okay, fascinating, fascinating. I'm totally about the hot dogs, Yeah, I'm thinking my thin so it's all good. parts myself, so I always try and feed the bands where I did, and I'm trying to bring that back again for the shows I have coming up.

    I did a tour of Europe once where they fed us everywhere, and I was like, this is how it should always be. And I hate to resort to tour pizza, but sometimes that is the easiest way for me to do stuff, because some venues I can't bring a crock pot of food. Right, yeah, I mean, I remember the toasters got mad at me for feeding them pizza So. once when I was a kid. Yeah, they get tired of it, like you also get tired of promoter pasta where they bring you this like shitty pasta. I used to make vegan chili just cause you know, in the DC area there's enough vegans around even 20 years ago that I just reverted to like vegan was just the route that I went because I couldn't make three different fucking chilies.

    But now I'm like picking up pizza. Yeah. getting a vegan pizza, gluten free pizza. You know, it's like, ~ yeah. easiest way to take care of everyone. Yeah, man. And appreciate when people give that sort of stuff too, because it's, you know, if you have like a floor to sleep on, if you get fucking a fucking hot shower, that's like the best thing in the fucking world. ~ God. Yeah, when we toured Europe I think in like the three and a half four weeks we were there I think I only got to shower like three or four times. ~ it was fucking terrible.

    I was like so disgusting So no, Yeah, but when you get that shot, it's so nice. they gave the shower was fucking great. That's fucking great So, okay, so you so you select the bands by like you see them live you get their vibe you feel it It feels inside it grabs you and says fuck. Yeah, I gotta put this out So what do you do? Like how'd like? I don't know how other record labels do stuff because mine's a weird anomaly because since I do live albums I can record four bands in one night and get their whole sets and I tell bands that I cover the cost because sometimes like you just fuck up or the guitar chord like you know kind of blows up and you know whatever it is but to them it's like it's no loss and to me You know, I can record four bands for the price of like one day in the studio for one band.

    So that's kind of how I handle royalties is by covering that and covering mixing and mastering. What do you do for your bands if you don't mind sharing that kind of like insider information? sure, so it really depends on what they're looking to do, right? So like Chemical X, when they were doing their vinyl, like they had all this shit already streaming for the most part. And they just wanted something out there in a world that someone could hold, Yeah. so was like, good, deal, done, easy enough. And you know, Sounds perfect, yeah, let's do that.

    I kind of, I read a long time ago that Imaqai, you know, he basically just worked out like, Bands get a percentage of the cut after he recoups all of his cost. I'm really informal, mostly just handshake deals, Okay. work out what I can. don't wanna, you a lot of this stuff is like bands are just kind of doing what they can to just get their message out there and that's what I'm about. Like some bands I have helped them put some stuff out in the studio. I just worked with, wrapping up an album for a band called Alpha Sub right now. Okay.

    Yeah, dude, check them out. They're a lot like MOD. I will check my Alpha sub it is. But ~ they're like an MOD if they're if Billy Milano sounded like he never went through puberty But yeah, amazing. no, they're great their singers just gonna kill me for saying that by way But they're good they're great but like I'll help bands Ha! out if they need it a lot of times though I want them to take kind of control of the direction they want to go So if they if they're if they have time that they could get in the studio and put shit together cool if not let's put it together and work together on it. I just wanna see, I just get excited seeing the fucking finished product, so I just kinda let them lead the way, Yep.

    Okay. and then take it from there, man. And like, so you say you pay them after it covers it, but like I bought this from Chemical X on the road. Do you give that to them on consignment and they owe you the money back or do you just say here take your shit or is there a certain amount that you just give them upfront like this is how many you get and Yeah, so I'll give them like a couple cases, right? Just to make sure they have shit. Because like, they already worked hard on it.

    Yeah. You know, before we even talked, they already wrote these songs, they already practiced them to the point where they're tight, they already did everything to get, you know, get it out into the world except for get it on a piece of vinyl. So, like, I'll give them a couple cases and then, you know, if they need more, we work something out, you know? Okay. and it's more about just like, like I said, getting it out there. Everyone's been really cool.

    Like we do pre-orders ahead of time. most, far as what costs need to get covered, we usually get it pretty quickly. And then, you know, I just want to make sure that everyone has a good time and can do things like go out in the road and not have to worry about shit. That's all I care. There you go. So like yeah, so like you said you do pre-orders. So I do pre-sales too. Do you like do price differences or free giveaways or how do you make that pre-sale or pre-order special?

    So for presales, for the most part, I usually give away a comp to go along with it. So if you record like pre-order a record, Okay. you'll probably get a comp. I'm probably gonna be putting out another one next year just because I'm running out of the ones I have. And they're getting a little stale. And plus some people like you order like four or five records and have to catch up. And you're like, what am I gonna get, Dude, I'm sitting there like, in your case, man?

    I'm like, I gotta start going through my own collection to give this guy something new. But, you know, like, it's one of those things where I try to find something new and different to put in there each time. Sometimes it's, you know, they'll get, they'll save on shipping or I try to work out something different each time. Right now though, what's been really good for me and really good for the bands is throwing in like one of those comps though, cause then, you know, they get the record they want, the person who buys it gets something new they didn't expect. and they get to check out whole bunch of other people that they might not have even known about. And a lot of those comps too, like the last one I did was a four-way split with my band, Seeing Snakes, Friend, this dude Dave Strong from Maine who's fantastic.

    Yeah, that's the one. And yeah, I got it in my hands right here and yep. because you have almost everything. And this band, Splatter, who are kind of like Ramonesy horror punk band. Next one I want to do for next year, I want to put together a decent 12 to 16 track up and down the East Coast. Fucking just a ton of bangers. Just to share it with people, you know, sounds right dude. man? How do you how do you keep track like you keep because I I'm done counting about 35 releases now in four years. and I like to give away free records as well.

    And usually I go to like, okay, this is the record of a band that I put out two years ago and then they broke up the next month. It's just kind of sitting here because I pressed 200 of it because the year before they went on tour 270 days out of the year and they told me they were gonna do it again the next year and it said they didn't. So I tend to give that one out fairly often because it's You not moving. But at the same time, like, I'm really bad at going, ~ what did I give this person last time if I have a repeat person? Do you good at keeping track of that shit?

    Okay, good. So that just me? No, no, Okay. like it's I'm terrible at that stuff. ~ my God. Right. I'm like, well, fuck it. If they get another one, they'll just give it to a friend. That's kind of my like if they get something extra and they get a chance to share with people, especially when you do the pre-orders too, because it's one of those things where if you get pre-orders and then you have to wait to ship out a huge trunk of records, like Shopify keeps track of all that, which is why I use, but like When you have to dig and you're you're packing records at like four or five o'clock in the morning before you go to like your actual job, you're just like, I don't fucking care.

    Yes. Just I'm tired. I smell like packing tape, which packing tape does have a smell. I never realized. You just, Yes, it does. Yep. there's like, whatever. They get it. I love you, man. But you just got to take this record. You know, like, yeah. I was like, done, I'm done. I used to hand write the addresses and I finally got a label printer because I pissed off too many people at the post office because I'd show up there with like 50 or 70 records to mail and they would have to print the label for each one.

    And people would be like, what the fuck are you doing, ~ well, I mean... man? You can't just sit here and take the entire post office for the next hour. I'm here on my lunch break to mail something important. dude, that wouldn't even fly in my post office, like, I have handwriting that makes like, they would just be like, this guy's a serial killer. What is this? Every record would not be delivered. It would just... My students would tell you that the best part about the pandemic is they could read my comments because everything was electronic and my handwriting You is so atrocious that like I used to send their Christmas cards and thank you cards at the end of the year and the kids would be like, yeah, can you read Mr.

    Pizzo note to me, mom? Because I don't understand. And it's not like I wrote in cursive. I wrote in print. It's just terrible. ~ dude, I am the same way. It is chicken scratch from hell. Like it's awful. I am exactly the same way. And I feel bad because like I had a kid who started kindergarten in the pandemic and like she start like before she can even really do handwriting because everything was virtual. She knew how to do PowerPoint like and her handwriting is she's hers is like getting better but was like really rough because none of those kids Yep.

    Sure? got in front of a teacher. So now yeah. And they're typing everything up and you know, and I was at debate. I was like, did they really need to waste time teaching the kids cursive? If they need to learn to cursive in their 20s, if they really want to, they can. Like it's not that hard to learn, Yeah. but you spent hours teaching like a second grader how to learn something and they don't need it. There's apps now you can scan the photograph.

    You can scan the Christmas card from mommy and daddy or grandma and say, hey, chat GPT Claude, tell me what this says. Put it in print for me and they can. I'm just saying, the Constitution's online, yeah, well I agree. like everything's online, it's everything, you know. Dude, I, not to go off a tangent, I'll send it to you after this thing, but I got drunk and was going through chat GPT to make fake Seinfeld scripts. And yeah, I was really bored.

    And eventually it just got to a script where every other line was, Jerry shits his pants. Ha You that is hilarious, So I know people shit on AI, but it has its moments. That's all I was gonna say. It does. And you know, and I used it in my business. I had to send a sensitive email to a band for some issues that came up and I drafted it and my wife was like, ~ that is way too line in the sand. And she drafted something and I was like, that is way too corporate-speaky.

    And we sent it to something called Claude and Claude was like, you know, didn't understand it. We said, well, I'm a punk rock guy doing yada. was like, ~ well in that case, yada yada. And he was like, this is actually fairly appropriate. And I appreciate how a punk rocker that's aging is trying to both keep his punk ethos while maintaining professionalism. And I was like, thank you Claude. Dude, it's wild. It's so wild. It's crazy. I was like, I had so much fun.

    And it's got some... Dude, it's so weird. But it does have its uses every now and then. Every now and then. Yeah. Every now and then. So you said you don't repress. that or is that just that one record? No, I just have one record. You do repress? Okay. So, because they didn't, like, I guess the guys at Chemical X weren't sure that the record would have legs. Like, I didn't expect it to sell as quickly as it did. And these guys have, let's see, Yeah.

    I think they've toured, like three two-week tours since they've done that, since they put it out. And they're probably gonna, I think they're going back on tour next month. Right. You know, and they have another album in the can. They're like, we just want to do this. They're like, you know, they're working on everything right now. They're waiting to get the masters back, but they're ready to put a new one out. So they're like, that one, the one you got was they recorded that themselves That's right.

    Yeah. in their house, which by the way, fucking sounds great for a bunch of guys that had, It sounds great to me!! yeah, like I had no idea until they told me that. They're like, Yeah, we have no idea what we're doing. We used like a little, one of those old school Porta studios and we ran up on Google where to place mics. I'm like, I had no fucking clue. I thought it sounded fucking great. Yes. So this time around is the first time going to like Yeah, no, sounded great to me. an actual studio and tracking stuff that I haven't even heard of yet, Okay. but I'm fucking excited for it.

    I'm excited for that, man. See? And that's like, and that's where like your type of label is because like I don't repress things. I'm always looking to put out the next band's record. And I do tell the band so that if they are really like, they really like the album and they want to repress it themselves, that they can do it and just put a different cover on it and just make sure I'm in like the lighter notes that I recorded it. And like version two can come out with them with a different cover and they're allowed to run with it.

    They really want to, but I'm always moving on to the next. Yeah. thing because I don't sign bands. I do a release with you and then I support Yeah. you and get that release and help you do release shows and you can always come to me for help if you need booking tours and stuff. know, but bands come to me with that. I don't put out the records and I help them with that shit. Yeah, like it's kind of the same thing. most of these guys, like some of these records have gone down a lot, like in volume.

    Like the first thing I've repressed is the first friend record I put out. And a lot of the ones I put out, because again, half of them were put out in the last few years where we're kind of running low. So I'll probably see if these guys want to put stuff out and I'm there to support them, whatever they want to do. So if it's a repress or a new release, fucking have at it, figure it out. How many do you press each time? So I originally was started to do, while I was doing my stuff, was going short run through a solid merch.

    And then, and then I got hit Sure, without the test presses, yep. up by the company, I guess they're like the parent company, A to Z media. And they're like, Yep, energy. well, if you keep doing stuff, we'll give you better rates with like a little bit more volume. So the, Okay. the last couple records I did were 300 copies. I'm not doing huge ones, but it's just like, Okay. I feel like I'm just starting to kind get my feet on the ground, and I just got distribution this year, and I think I'm maybe gonna start dipping my toes in and doing larger stuff.

    I might do 500 for the next, if I do the next Chemical X record, Okay. which I hope I do, because I'm fucking stoked about it. I want to do like maybe 500 there and see how it goes. Wow, because I do like one to two hundred and you So yeah. know some records sell out fairly quickly and other records hang around so I'm I'm fairly hesitant to go up to those bigger numbers but once again you know I've done 16 releases this year and it's it's stupid dude it's stupid That's so fucking crazy. It's so insane. I mean, I got lucky with some of them that sold out, Ugh. like Inquisition record, know, the dudes from Strike Anywhere were there in high school and stuff, and Beretta, Rebelmatic, you they sold out within like a month.

    So I had some, and then like I did a co-release with Wax Mage, and that was like, boom, that went like fucking, I was like, and those gave me the money to put out the other records. Yeah, I was like, yeah, Dude, which is the best thing in the world? Like when that happens, I can do more. yeah, cause you get to do stuff you want to. Like I did a record a long time ago with Green Jelly and like, Yes, I saw that, the split with the snakes. Yeah, I'll send you a copy.

    But so when he did that, Bill from Green Jelly is like stage persona aside, he's fucking crazy in the best way possible. Hahaha but like he's a real character and like I played shows with him a number of times but he that dude is completely out of his fucking mind like last time I saw them he had like just inflatable lawn decorations so many of them on the stage that blew a circuit like just you couldn't see the band anymore death. it was just fucking I almost hit him with my car before and he was like it's all good I'm like this dude's out of his goddamn mind I guess he's been doing it so long and it's worked for him, but dude's out of his tree. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, that's how some people are, right?

    You know, it's, ~ you know, it's, you know, I grew up in the, when the world war was around and hanging out with Dave Bracke and stuff like that. So, you know, and, you know, he had his own unique eccentricities to say the least. Yeah. So. I believe it. I believe it. Didn't need to do more like... That guy was fa- like that whole band's fascinating. I missed it over the weekend. They just had Olive Guar and Trenton to do photo ops at a flea market.

    Yeah, man. I missed it. Rad I Mean the first time I saw them it was high school and everybody was going to Brad night and I went to go see fear meat men in the war instead I Was like I'm gonna much more enjoy this show that I am going to enjoy going ~ fuck. to the cafeteria or a hotel and Plain listening to dance music with all the same people I just spent four years in high school with that I didn't get along with for the most part Yeah my God. I love Fear. I fucking love Fear.

    Lee Ving's like one of my favorite dude. Yeah, feels so great. So fucking good. Yeah. So fucking good. And I just listened to a new album for them too and I dig it, I know. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely different. It's got like a lot of bluesy stuff on there which, you know, leaving always kind of lean towards that. You know, there's always been blues in this stuff so it's not like, Yeah. where is this coming from? from left field. Like I get where it's coming from.

    Right, honestly, glad dude's still around. I know he's been having his troubles with health-wise, so good for him. Yep, I couldn't agree more. speaking of bands you love, Yeah, man. is there one band, if you could put out a record by any one band, avail. that would just make you go, why are we not friends sooner? How is this possible that you and I did not know each other sooner? my god, if I do my favorite- my god, my favorite fucking band of all time. And every time I'm supposed to see them, something happens.

    But favorite band of all time, 4am Friday, my favorite record of all time. yeah, it's, yeah? I'm like speechless trying to talk to you about this. Okay, so you remember when they did that reunion show before they started actually doing more shows and it like the first show went like fucking forever? Yeah. Yup. All right, so I was so determined to get tickets that I wrote my credit card number on the dry erase board in my classroom. because my class started 10 minutes before the tickets went on sale.

    And I made every single one of my sixth graders get out their iPads and their phones, had them create logins to whatever the ticket service was, or I gave them my login, and whatever. And I had every one of them trying to get the tickets. ~ And they failed, but. My buddy JPEG got tickets, he got four, and I ran up and down the halls screaming and yelling because I never thought this day would come that I would get to see them again because I love them and I was so excited. Dude, dude, yeah, mean, you know, like, here's the thing, like, A, they don't have a bad record. First off, they do not have a bad record.

    No, 100%. On top of that, too, no one sounds like them. Like, no one sounds like them, and it's just, they're phenomenal. Like, And the energy and even now, like I said, I've now seen them two or three times since that time and it's still there. as much as I love Tim Berry's solo stuff, which I really do love it, Vail, Yeah. It's just, it's its own monster, I mean, it's just, man. It's, yeah, yeah. Yep. that's that. That'd be, that'd be it. Like what's the live 10 inch they put out live at the King's Head Inn?

    Even that was, yeah. Yes, but I like live at the bottom of the hill. That's my favorite one. Live at the bottom of hill. yeah. But I mean like, dude, like, but all of it, it just, the whole fucking lot of it is just fucking perfect. When I was in the Twats, we used to say merch people, and a veil was coming to the Autobar. and I already had tickets, but like a week before the show, the merch people said, hey, Avale's on tour, you guys buy a lot from us, would you mind if we shipped you some stuff and Avale will let you into the show for free if you can bring the merch to them?

    And I'm like, well, I'm already going, but yes, I'd be very happy to deliver Avale's merch to them. Thank you for giving me the pleasure of delivering their merch. my god. Thank you for trusting me, and yes, I will deliver Avale t-shirts to them. Yes sir, yes I will. Thank you so much. You I will go to the Audemars and say, here's your shirts, here's your shirts. I'm not worthy. yeah, mean, okay. So. Like, they're like, ~ so I mean, like, they're one of those bands that's so special.

    Like, I've seen, like, I had that reaction when I first saw the Descendants when they did their most recent reunion, but now they play so much, I'm like, it's cool to see them, you know, Yep, I feel that. but like, yeah, like, a veil is just something different, man. They're just that awesome. I actually have on CDR Tim Berry's earlier band LDK Learning Disabled Kids. So if I give you a head of rip it to I'll send Okay. it to you as he played drums. Feels like he played drums in a veil before he sang.

    I also have the a veil seven inch where Brian Stewart's still singing before Tim started singing for the band. Huh, wow, yeah, I So. never heard that. Yeah, it's interesting stuff. It's like, you could definitely hear where there was like a dag nasty, like, discordy sound going on. Like, I'm sure you've heard Satiate. So, it's like that, but like, Yeah, yeah. even more so. So, Gotcha. what I find fascinating, if you listen to songs that are on Satiate, and listen to the live versions of those songs, they're like almost fucking different songs.

    Almost totally different. yeah. Yeah. It's funny that you bring up the dag nasty thing. Quick dag nasty story. Well, quick Dave Smalley story. I love that. Hit me buddy. Hit me. years ago we were playing at Kung Fu Nectar and Kung Fu Nectar has a great place but they'll cut off any show if they have a DJ event afterwards. So Dave Smalley's band's headlining. ~ yes, I've experienced this sort of activity in the past. play he does an acoustic set first it's like all right cool whatever and then he's like all right now here's what everyone wanted to hear gets him on stage brings a full band on stage amps come up and amps come off standby starts playing the intro to values here house lights come on sound gets cut off everyone just like No!

    No! It just started! No! Like, everyone just, it was just like the biggest gut punch. And the other thing is too, is I found this, if you go to any band that was like, had any connection to Discord at all, like I feel like the entire crowd is chubby guys that are balding with beards that really want a close talk, whoever it is that was in that band. I Am I have awkwardly met several like I met Dave Smalley and like John Stab and but it was always just very awkward I'm not good at like speaking to people that I don't have I'm not going small talk with people who I've looked up to since I was like a teenager You know Yeah, well, how can you be?

    If I meet them in a more casual thing like I've gotten pretty close with Skeeter Thompson Enoch from a scream because he lives up in my area Kindest gentlest man Super easygoing, you know just hung out with him and just chilled at his place said, you know It's he's just a great guy him him and His partner Mary would like house bands that come through like small bands like some kind of nightmare You let them stay like just great people And so, yeah, but in manager I was like, ~ what am I supposed to say to you? It's like I met against me at the Avel show, and I was like, technically I met you like when I was 32, because you played my 30th birthday, but I still don't know what to say you anymore than I did when I was 30, and now I'm 15 years older and I still don't know what to say.

    Dude, I feel like that's totally normal and totally natural. They probably get it all the fucking time. Yeah, I'm like, hey, your Yeah. Yeah. album is something I listen to nonstop over and over and over again. And it meant a lot to me. And you've heard this all the time. What? And I'm just going to dork out. I don't know what else to tell you. I played in a band too. No, you never. You know I'm saying? you know, You haven't heard that before, right? like you want to talk about fishing.

    I don't go fishing, but I want to like make you feel like this is a normal conversation. So let's talk about fishing. Yeah. What's your favorite sandwich? What's the best sandwich you ever had? Yeah Yes, they're just people though, but like But I get it those few times in my life that even like somebody has tried to like walk up to me say hey Could you sign this record assigned this drumstick? I was like Yeah, I'm literally just a dude and it's still like Awkward but kind and I appreciate it very much.

    But yeah, it's like I'm just a dude though Yeah, That rule holds true to most people except for, I met Angelo Moore from Fishbone and that guy, that guy is not like that. He's a character, No. man. Yeah. Like he's followed a couple of my friends around from bar to bar, like to hit on a woman. Yeah, like he's a good time. He's been much, but yeah, he's a good time. Yeah, it's a good time. He's just a little, not as little kid, not as normal as everyone else.

    Yeah, yeah, it's always special like that. So, I know you talked about a Philly band you have coming up. Yeah. Is there a Philly band that you've seen that you haven't put out the record that you're like, I wanna put this out? Ooh. I'm basically a horde of all the bands where I'm like, let me put out your stuff. So there's a lot of good bands that I've seen though, like Impact Driver, I love to work with. Let's see. Fuck's sake, really fucking good.

    I saw them a couple times. Most recently, they were opening with my, for my buddy's band. There's this really awesome band out of. Youngstown, Ohio called nervous aggression and they're fucking they just fucking Okay. rip. It's just balls out to thrashy punk rock and it's fucking great and fuck's sake same thing just You know ruthless straightforward Pass. fast hardcore fucking great and That's one battle. I love to work with that that guy chance, you know And I'll have check those out. know like I'm doing something with Soji.

    You know Soji? So I'm doing a split with them and there's a band I really want Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, to work with. Burning Hag. Have you seen them yet? They're fairly new. used to do some reviews on my blog and I caught them I haven't heard of them now. and like I was like I just hope they're as good live as they are recorded. Right? Like I just... That's why I always do the lighting. I just saw Yeah. Cross Keys at Fest and I had them coming up here to New Paltz in March and I'm actually recording the show and they're open to the idea of a live album but they're also like well we like to really put our all into the show so sometimes the show overshadows performance musically speaking and I'm like that's kind of the point though It's supposed to have all the energy.

    Yeah. and, but it's okay if you don't like it and nothing will ever be done with it. But if you do, because I saw him at Fest and they fucking ripped. We're playing with them in a few weeks at the start of February. We're gonna be playing with them, Townwire, American Television, and then us and then another leg of, I love American television. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, man. those are old friends. one of the Brian Flowers used to play in a band called Looks Like Rain, like 20 years ago, 20 plus years ago.

    Straight edge hardcore. You would think they're emo, but they were not. The name will throw me that way. Yeah, but there is like they had a kid on a skateboard and he was just sad because he was gonna go skateboarding but it like gonna rain and I don't know. But it was all super straight edge hardcore. But dude, that's the thing, you know as well as anyone else, naming bands sucks. It's the worst. yeah. You know what? Every now and then, I had a band hit me up to do a show and I looked at them and I'm like, ~ well, there's nothing recorded.

    I said, no link for recording on your Instagram. Let me Google your name. was like, ~ your name's the exact same name as a movie that I've never heard of. That's terrible. Because now people are gonna Google it and how are they gonna find you? It's like, well, let me just try Googling the band and put the word band after it. ~ there's already two bands with this name that aren't you? Dude. Fucking A! Come up with a fucking band name that hasn't already been used!

    Please! It's so, cause there's a really good band down here, my buddy Roger, and they sound, dude, it's perfect. It sounds like mid nineties look out stuff. Yeah, great. But they're called Knucklehead. How many bands do you know called fucking Knucklehead? They're trying, need to... No. Just. Just don't misspell it. Like when we were the Twats, another band tried to become the Twats but with an O. I was like no, like just find your own band name.

    Now, fight for your own identity, I mean. That's why I like the best band name I've heard all year, Rubik's Cube. No one's gonna steal that. There you go, that's great. That's great. It's fucking fantastic. It makes me laugh. I love that, yeah. Be original. Yeah. Google it, see if it's already there, and if it is, don't use it. Don't be scared if was another band of all that. Like it's- Just a whole bunch of bands just all over named Rubik's Pub.

    Like a whole bunch of them out there Yeah. I was like, come on. It's just maddening to me. was like, I don't want to put out your record. god. No one's going to able to find you. No. Right. Right. Yeah. No interest in it. No. I did a record for a band called The Hamiltons and there were so many bands called The Hamiltons. I'm like, this is just frustrating. There's gonna be at least two like five bands that rip off the Ramones that sound like the Ham- they're called the Hamiltons.

    Easy. Yeah, it's, and this band does not sound like the Ramones, but nonetheless. Sure, But that's the first place my mind goes. Yeah. of course it is. You know, they're more like Stooges, if Stooges was an 80 hardcore band. ~ right on. I could dig that. It's really good. Really, I wouldn't have that from the name, really good. But just, no, though. in no way, or form. In no way, or form would you have gotten that from the name. All these bands by you, man, I know these bands you work with where their names don't line up with the sound.

    Yeah, I find that interesting too. It feels like it should, but then, I don't know, maybe you name the band and then you don't realize what you're gonna sound like or you change. So, Yeah, that happens. Yeah. you ever collaborate with other record labels? Because I've started doing that recently to kind of help spread the promotion, spread the call, spread the love. I'd love to, you know, especially cause like, feel like there's, you know, A, it makes our lives a lot easier if we're not spending as much, just to be honest, you know.

    But the other thing is too, Yeah, uh-huh, yep. is it's like, someone out there has an ear that I don't have. So I would love to do that. I would actually like to do more, maybe tie in with a lot of the local promoters who have their ears to the ground. Cause that would be cool. Cause then it's like, Yeah. you know, they, Like for instance, we're out here, we got Hostile City Oy. They book a lot of fucking bangers. Yep. They book a lot of just fucking amazing shows.

    I'd love to, instead of doing, maybe instead of doing a album with a label necessarily, maybe collaborate with somebody who has a very distinct approach to how they promote things and work with, you know, certain stable bands and be like fucking put their shit out and like drive what like the sound they're looking for, you know? Cause that could be unique. And that could be like your compilation too, right? If like there's a certain promoter who has like a dozen bands they work with that like they think hey these bands would all be great on a comp and they have stuff recorded and some of it unreleased and you know, Yeah. okay so Yeah. But yeah, as far as like Philly labels, honestly, like outside of Creep and Violated, I don't really know too many, you know, like there's Rubbish Records, which is like more of like street and folk punk.

    Yeah. And they work with a lot of good bands. I don't know if they actually put anything out like on physical media. Probably should talk to that guy. Yeah, yeah, there's wax packs little yeah. you know a little further off from you so Yeah. But yeah, I'd to pick people's brains about that sort of shit too. Well, you know, I found this. It's been I did one with a record store like the Rebelmatic was us and Shiny Dome Records out in Morgan County, West Virginia, because that's where the show was recorded because apparently they do really well at Fuzz Fest out there.

    So I was like, yeah, this is great. I love having the additional support of record store to sell it. Speaking of record stores, you mentioned distribution. How the fuck did you get distribution? Because I've never gotten distribution. I haven't figured that shit out. Educate me. I fucking just, I literally was just like, started, basically I was like, I wanna put out a bunch of records. And I was like, I'm gonna go quickly into debt. And I just started cold calling the man.

    Hahaha! I was like, look, know, what does it take? What do you need from me? And I ended up lucking out and worked with Hostile City Distro, which is tied to another company called MVD. Okay. and they've been fucking great. They put up with me not knowing what the fuck I'm doing. But they took me on early on and they're like, Okay. here's how it's gonna work. In my case, when they did it, they took it on consignment. And they're like, here's, let us know how much you want per record when it sells.

    And they'll send me a purchase order saying like, we need this, make copies of this, this, and this. And then 60 days down the line, they pay me out for whatever they do sell. They, you know, it's actually panned out a lot better than I expected to. like, you know, the bands that go on the road, they send me pictures, like, I didn't expect to see this shit in stores like far out, but like, people are sending me pictures from like Illinois and fucking Michigan of records. Alright. I'm like, what the fuck?

    Like, this is cool as shit. Like, I didn't expect any of this. And also I was surprised that people still buy CDs, which is wild to me. They're like, Yeah, I don't yeah. get that and any more than I get the new resurgence of tapes like I am decidedly I'm trying to come off my High horse on them in the sense that like six years ago eight years ago when I played a tape release show in my band I brought a t-shirt that explained how to use a pencil to fix the tape and a diagram and then I brought a whole bunch of pencils and I sold them next to the band who was selling tapes as a tape repair kit Dude, I'm with you. And the other thing, I think I'm done with tapes to be honest.

    I did a couple. I was like, this is for someone, but it's not for me. Like, they sound like ass. They're not sh- Like, it's- And I say this, and with all the love to my buddy Jimmy who runs Locked in the Basement where he does these great live albums on tape. Yeah. And he records the bands for free and gives them the tapes. And I love it, he puts it up on YouTube. I did a tape with him with my band Leave It Behind that I was in, and RBNX. But only because of him.

    I was like, I respect what you're doing with this. This isn't some band putting out some cheap shitty ass tape. But I still question whether people are buying it to listen to it or just have it and I really want people to listen to the music I put out I know that's Right. Yeah, I think a lot of those just, not a little whiny I feel like a lot of those just go in like a shelf or a drawer and that's, Yeah. yeah. And you know, it's cool, but I... Yeah, I mean, if that's what you want, that's cool.

    I'm glad you support, but, you know, like, I feel like the hierarchy of how it be is it's like, fucking go to the show, that's number one, fucking get the experience, see people being maniacs, or see, get the connection you want that you're not gonna get anywhere else. Buy a record, then like... Yes. streaming and then tapes. Cause honestly like tape, like you said, I just feel like tapes just, that's a display piece man. You know, Yeah, it really like. is.

    It's like a figurine. It's like a Hummel. It's a punk rock Hummel. Yeah, like you have it to say you have it. Dude, like, what was a, I remember Adam and his package, like going way back. You know where I'm going with this then, Yes, I remember them. yeah, do you remember the Live 8 track? yeah. yes. So, Little Law Scroll Media, and I love Athena, she's amazing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. She only puts out eight tracks. And I think it's an amazing concept, it's super niche, and she's gotten to work with some amazing bands.

    But I don't ever buy any, because I don't, but I also don't buy like, Like I'm not the guy like as much as I love comic books, I don't buy comic book figures and put them around my room. But I people that do. There people that love collectibles. It's just not me. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm like more of like a functionality guy. So like, if I can't really use it, Yeah. I don't really get any experience out of it. You know what mean? So it's like, have to be able to like, plus there are things too, it's like, I like throwing a record on when like my wife and kid are out of the house and just fucking cranking it all the way.

    Right? Yes! And like, how the fuck am I gonna do that with something I don't have anything to play it with? Like. Exactly. I literally have had bands hand me tapes and CDs and they're like hey just want to give you this and I'm like I'm like I don't know is the dick move to take it knowing that I'm just gonna like Put it aside and lose it or should I say hey? Really appreciate this and I'll check out all your shit on like Streaming and band camp but like I don't want to take something that you could actually sell That's exactly it. to someone because I'm not going To listen to this format.

    It's just not gonna is that dickish to say that or is that okay? No, I feel like you're being honest. There's always another piece of merch you can always help a band out with. Or honestly, just put a couple bucks in their tank. I will support a band I love to the end of the earth. Absolutely. man, this is gonna collect us. You could use this to get, I'll give you five bucks, get another five bucks from somebody else who could take this. You know what mean?

    I'm with you. Yeah, because like I would, you know, they're giving it to me free. They want me to like promote them, them on the show or maybe do a live album, which is very kind. Or they're thanking me for giving them a show, which is also very kind. I was like, I'd rather just buy a t-shirt from you and if you wanna take five bucks off of it for the cost of the tape, but I'll pay full price for a shirt or I'll trade you one of my shirts. Welcome to show.

    Like I'd much rather have a shirt from you if you don't have vinyl than a tape. I have too many shirts. Yeah, 100%. yeah, you have to probably like me, like a whole closet full of black shirts. So many fucking shirts. I know at one point my wife had me cut up a bunch Dude, you have to like... of them and she was gonna have it made into a quilt that had to be like 15 years ago and that just never happened. I was like, well those shirts are gone, but I've gained 50 pounds since then anyway, ~ same boat.

    Yeah. so it's fine. Yeah. I'm always like, you don't fit in that. It's got holes. Get rid of it. She's like, you need to wear more colors. And the worst part is, you know, Sleep. I work at a t-shirt company day after day. Yeah. So like they give me shirts. So I have so many ungodly amount of t-shirts. Sure. They're like, I don't think I've actually like, haven't, I haven't had to actually buy a shirt in like three years. Because I just have so many of them.

    You have so many. I've actually pondered how to give away shirts. Like if people order a record, it's like, know what? Like regular customers, I would love to send them a shirt as a surprise, but I have no way of knowing what their size is. Right? And guess I could reach out and ask them. You know, why not? Make it fun. Ask like, you could do things like, you could ask them like, which, you have, you probably have a mailing list. Go through and be like, hey, if I was gonna give something away, Yes. which would you prefer?

    A koozie, a bunch of stickers, a shirt, you know? And then just sit there and fucking, if you get a bunch of answers on a shirt, just follow up and be like, hey guys, I'm gonna try this. Yeah. There you go. It's not a bad idea. I could try something like that. I could do a big end of your specials like, hey, everyone in my mailing list, if you order a record, I'll give you your choice of free items. You'll just have to yada yada if it's a shirt. You're gonna have to tell me your size.

    Not a bad idea. Yeah. Otherwise just send them a 6XL. I have lots of shirts. If they don't, they don't get, yeah. I was gonna say like, if they don't tell you the size, just give them a 6XL. There you go. There go. You'll fit into this. You'll grow into it. Yeah, like this one. I got this in Baltimore the other night. I'm putting out this sick move record. And I'm like, it is white and blue. And my daughter asked me to make her a spaghetti with marinara sauce.

    I'm like, I'm gonna put on a black hoodie while I make this. Because this shit's just gonna get ruined. Yup. And I ruined so many non-black shirts so quickly. So quickly. yeah, same here man. funny kids and shirt story though. I took my kid to see Marky Ramone last year and opening for him was the Vibrators V2, the one guy from the Vibrators start. I took my kid with me because she's huge into the Ramones and she liked the Vibrators a lot. She's like, dad, can I get a shirt?

    Like, no. She's like, why can't I get one? I'm trying to explain like. My nine year old can't wear a vibrator shirt to school. Like she's like, she's like, I really liked them. I'm like, they don't make your size. She's like, you made them. Can you make me one? I'm like, God damn it. Ha ha! Like I was like getting hated every single quarter. Yeah, a little too smart. Yeah, dude. Be happy that she's enjoying it. My older kid used to enjoy going to all the shows with me.

    And now she's away at school and she has like an elective that she yeah. can take to something called J-Term. It's like this short-end term where they take some fun classes. And she had the choice of ceramic tiles or punk rock history. Okay. And she chose ceramic tiles. Well, that's... in all fairness, she probably has enough punk rock history talking to her dad. So there you go. That's kind of what she said. She's like, dad, I've been to your shows.

    I've worked your table. I've put records together. I've listened to you talk. And I was like, but she's like, She has nothing to gain from. no. Do you really want her to go to a class where she's corrected the teacher? That was the other thing because when I was a social studies teacher I was like no that's nonsense yada yada yada that's such crap I said this is what really happened So she like I don't need you because Yeah. I got her in trouble She went on a field trip to st.

    Augustine, know, it was like Ponce de Leon at the Fountain of Youth and I was like, yeah. yeah Yeah, there was no such he didn't even go to st. Augustine. He was found in 40 years after he died And I was like, here's all the things that's like in that city That's a lie and they're on the tour and like she's in my fourth or fifth grade and she's just spouting off everything That's a lie ~ man. Suing. Dude, that's perfect. That's awesome. I was like, come on.

    So yeah, I would be like, yes. I'd be like, no, the Talking Heads are not a punk band. Yes, I understand they played CBGBs at the same time as the Romans, but neither was Patti Smith, neither is Blondie. I appreciate the fact that you want to lump them in as early punk rock, but they're not. You could put MC5 in the stooges in there, I might accept that, but absolutely not. Yeah, I mean like that early, like late 70s scene like who else you got? Magazine, no, television. television.

    God, yeah, no, that CBGB scene like it basically was like early CBGBs, dictators and Ramones and all the other ones. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm like, and I was like, yeah, that's what I would, and she'd be like, yeah, the class were overrated. So man, she's probably having a great time doing ceramic tiles, Yeah. I'm sure she will. I'm sure she will. I don't hear your shit, Alright, so how do you promote your records? Is you're them so quickly and you're getting, you know, like do you send all, like I send stuff off to review and I used to try and push the promotion to blogs and zines but I can check the analytics through my like website and I never get anyone like reading the review on some Brazilian website on punk rock.

    Yeah. it coming back it makes me feel warm in my heart and makes the bands feel warm in my heart, but Efficacy it's it's not doesn't seem to be there for me It's, dude, that is the toughest part, to be honest. And I'm not gonna name names, Yeah. but I tried to use a PR person this year, and I gave them a good chunk of money. Yeah. And like three months after I started working with them, they're like, when's the record coming out? Yeah. like, two months ago.

    Yeah, and then like fucking haven't heard from them since. And God, and there was another. Wow. because I was like, this is my blind spot. I'm like, man, I don't have time to do that part of this whole gig, trying to get all that stuff together. Plus, I have no idea what I'm doing there. So I do the whole emailing zines sites and being like, hey, it is coming out. Here's why I have room now. Eh. And I have a buddy of mine that's been really helpful recently with like running press releases for me and he, you and I send those off to the zines that I've Yeah. decided are like worthwhile, like scene point blank and you know, Mm-hmm. ones that I think actually are really real punk rock zines as opposed to like front sites that are just trying to haggle money off of you.

    And I send it off like razor cake and whatnot, but yeah, it's, it's hard. Like I spend a lot of time on social media more than I'd prefer to. And I feel like I get a lot of traction from that. Yeah. but like it's exhausting. I'm 48 years old. Like I don't want to spend all my time on Instagram and TikTok. Yeah. No, and like you feel like a whore doing it too. Like you're just like, yeah. And it's like, You too. but at the same time it's like, I also have to tell the band to do that.

    And it's like, it used to be so much easier when you could just show up places with flyers and be like, check this shit out. And it's. See, now I still do that for shows. Can I do that for albums, you think? Should I start posting flyers from my releases all over town? Why not? Because I remember like back I don't know, that's... in the day, like all the release posters, like you would get like shit like that all the time. You see him hanging up in record stores and it's like, Yeah, I guess you're right. you definitely don't see those anymore.

    It's been so long and I've already been fighting the battle to bring back flyers for shows. You if you check out my social media, I walk around all the towns hanging up flyers for hours and I pass out handbills at shows constantly and people look at me like I'm crazy and I'm like, no, I'm bringing paperback. paper flyers were the coolest thing in the world. My bass player, Yeah! he held onto every single flyer he's had since he was 15. like, shit, he's got one for shows I don't remember playing or being at, but seeing weird hand-drawn art that a kid came up with, or someone that's studying tattoos, drew some flash piece and there's a bunch of band names running around it, cool. And it's... I don't know, I wanna get back into it too.

    Last couple shows I did, I did a bunch of 11 by 17 fucking posters. And I'm like, yeah, I wanna get a whole room just covered. know? That, cause I miss that. I went crazy. I'm doing these monthly Sunday matinees starting next month and my first poster I did 18 by 24 and I had like 30 of them made. Whoa. Dude, that's dope. And I'm like, there's no way I'm making my money back for this. But like, let's do this. Let's let the world know that I'm serious about doing No. monthly punk rock shows at this venue and bringing punk rock back to this town.

    And so I'm like, all right, Dude, that's awesome. well, they definitely see it. It's fucking huge. Yeah, think, okay, let's make 2025 the year of the paper flyer again. That's it. Yep. And honestly, you know what you do for you? Right? Let's do it! Promotion for show on one side, upcoming records on the other side. Fuck, did I never think of that. Yeah, man. Why am I a moron? Why are you a genius? Because, no, here's the thing, being objective, when you're where other people need stuff, Yeah. that's how it always works.

    But we're two burned out dads that are trying to just get through the fucking day. So that's why that happens. So it's like yeah you work I work I'm also getting my PhD I'm married with two kids my two teenage daughters my life is non-stop You playing a band Yeah, yeah, it's fucking wild. I was just got out of a band, I will back in one again soon. I'm sure so I'm sure I'm sure it's gonna bite you where you're just gonna be like, gotta do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    I just talked to a buddy the other day who just lost their drummer and I was like I would love to offer to step in but I hate to over promise and I'm not quite ready to jump back into a project where I know there are like shows looming. I'm like, Yeah. ~ I was like, ~ Yeah, it's a lot to get into and commit to right away. Like if I'm gonna do it, and now that I'm doing these monthly shows and I'm just doing a lot of show promotion right now, I'm like, you know, I don't know, just, it's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah.

    So, ~ speaking of which, I saw on your Facebook you do a Phameless fest. Does that still happen? So, next year's gonna be the first year I'm gonna try to do it again. We stopped doing it for a while. All right. Because it was just like, not the right time, not the right place, and like, places were asking way too much money. And the other thing is too, it was like, time, we didn't actually have bands on the label, was just, the drummer of the band, Sure. the drummer for Seeing Snakes, Brian, he was just like, we should just do this, and he would just fucking rip at it, and he would an awesome job.

    But it was right around the time my daughter was born, so like, I wasn't really doing much of anything. Sure, I get that entirely. Yeah, but like now now like 13 cavities is like we should do a fest and I'm like Yeah, yeah, we should so I'm gonna try probably start in I There's a venue in Philly. I really like I've got a couple shows at and it's an old mausoleum factory Okay. So I'm gonna see if maybe the guy runs it Eric will let me do it there, but I'd to do like two days I don't know how many bands, maybe like 16 bands between both days, Yep. something like that.

    So you're hitting on like what I'm like I'm doing a I'm calling it the rally in the valley in April. This be the fourth anniversary of the label of our you know and We'll be ending our fourth year in April and also like my 49th birthday is that weekend as well So I'm gonna do two days Just bands from my label either that have current releases or releases pending But I didn't want to call it a fest because I go to a lot of festivals I worked a lot of table of festivals and like if you just have one venue and Ten bands, it's not a fast. It's just a really long show It's just a really long show. I feel like it's gotta be at least over more than one day. I'd like it to be more than one venue.

    Like I'm going to Knock Croydon Fest in April because I'm tabling there. a sponsor. And I'm excited to go, sweet. but I also know it's just one venue. And it's like, you know, I feel like it has to be multiple stages, multiple venues for hitting my idea of a fest and have vendors. Yeah. Like that's a fest. Dude, you're gonna have so much fun. This isn't Croydon Fest. I went last year. Yeah? I went the year and I left because I ended up leaving because I was just so beat by the end of the day.

    Because that's the other thing with those really long like eight or nine band shows. Like if you come early and the headliners come about to play, Yeah. you're fucking dead. Like that place is great though. Yep. Broken Goblet's done a lot of really fucking fun shows. It's a great venue. I was there Yeah. for my release with the Fendzik. So that was great. ~ right on. Yeah. We I've seen so many good shows there across the board, man. And like, the people who run it are super sweet.

    And like, the beers good. So yeah. Yes. And like I get like I think like something like 15 free beers for the weekend for my sponsorship. And I'm like that's like great. Nice. I'm like I'm bringing Gary from Soji with me to help work it and help share the beers because if I I can't drink 15 beers and drive. I mean I mean no I was like this is like this is is untenable. No, no, no, should you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but it's a great time there. Like that's one of the coolest places to go see Salomon.

    I think that's like, I'm pretty sure it's Jeremy who owns a, God, I'm gonna be jumpstart. Yeah, Jumpstart Records, Yeah. yeah. hey, are you thinking of going to Camp Punksylvania at all? I am a sponsor this year for the label, so I will be there. So. That is rad. If you'd like to bring your stuff, I'd be happy to table it for you and put it at my table dude, really? if you trust me to sell it. I would, well, I mean, I'm gonna be hanging out with you if you're there. yeah.

    Yeah, let me know. I will be there. usually have a cooler or a beer so and Let me know what you like. You know, I'll bring a bunch of fun Philly beers. and bring Philly beers and you know what else we should do? When you come and do that, we should do some trading too, because I do a small distro and I I trade with different, I trade with like sell the heart records and suburban white trash rejects or whatever. ~ my God, I keep, sorry, I got the label wrong. But know who you are.

    But yeah, you know, I trade with Gary from Soji all the time with his rat milk, Yeah. you know, collective thing he does. So, yeah. Yeah, man, I'm down for fucking hangs and checking out bands anyway, So, because I'm so I'm stoked for it. I really am stoked for this one. hoping I get to record the Riot stage again this year. I know if you heard, but I recorded the Riot stage last year and I I think did a Camp Pennsylvania comp that's coming out in a couple months.

    I saw the pictures of you holding, I think, the vinyl. So that's awesome. Yeah, this is gonna be sick. So, Dude, it's gonna be a time. It's gonna be really good time. Garrett from Skid Row did a I'm excited to teach you how to handle it. great job of recording that. So, What was that? Garrett from Skid Row did a great job of recording that. dude. I fucking love Skid Row. yeah, this is fucking great menu. That whole crew, like MC is like one of the nicest guys around.

    Alright, MC, yeah. And he's been around, Yeah. I know, he's been doing this forever. Like so long. I know. And I remember the old original Skid Row garage, which was literally a garage. And yeah, Yep. man. And honestly, I know like he got like, you know, fucking pinched for a having like, guess, you know, with what happened with some kid getting hurt there or something. That's why he had to go through all the hoops to get like his like business in order.

    But man, Yeah. it's paying off in dividends and like good for him, man. Yep, I agree. It's the way to do it. If I could, and maybe once my kids are out of high school entirely and I Mm-hmm. can be gone more evenings, I would like to open a venue but focus on making it an all ages one. Part of growing up in DC, Yeah. all the venues were all ages and I just got to go to so many great shows and I'm not sure I would have been in a band if I didn't know I could play shows.

    Yeah. I feel like, okay, it's good to know that it's not just Philly where it feels like that's dying. It's not I have one venue right now that like is a bar that'll do all ages shows But you know, they're not really a punk bar, but they'll do some shows So I got the big D and the kids table show coming there in April and I've got the burly girlies and from Vermont and squall from New Jersey coming up, you know in February but like It's not they don't do that a lot And like those are the VFW Hall where I saw chemical X and I've done stuff at this anarcho info shop called Blackbird, but it's all very few and far between. It's not like a venue where you know every show is all ages, consistent. Yeah.

    Yeah. And all the time. I remember when I was a teenager, I would drive up from Philly to Wilkes-Barre, which is in the Poconos, like like an hour and a half to hours away. Yeah, yep, know, my mom's from Easton. OK, so we would go we would go to Wilkes-Barre and there was a venue Yeah. up there called Cafe Metropolis. And every band that was just trying to skip either playing New York Okay. or Philly would play this place. So they constantly had just fucking fantastic shows there. great bands.

    And they were always all ages. They didn't serve booze, nothing like that. So it was just like a coffee machine and so is Upfront. That's it. And fucking great time, I've made so many friends there. I've so many bands I wouldn't have even heard of otherwise. My favorite that I've ever seen there was a band called Treeford out of Georgia. Not sure if you're familiar. Okay. No, uh-uh. Not familiar. so first time I saw this band, they opened up by starting with two of them laying their dicks on fire.

    Ha! Alright. And then, and then they, they just, they, one of them drank and everyone's pissed. Like they made out with each other. They started talking about Cyclops as being bad. It was weird, but it was the poppiest music you'll ever hear in your life. Like, the songs were like, That's hilarious. let's see, jerked off to your yearbook picture, rather be gay and play Nintendo 64 and never go out with you again. Like why the fat kids like Metallica?

    Like it was just. Look him up. Yeah, it's... No, I will definitely give that a look. I recommend her album, The Streets Will Run Red with the blood of the nonbelievers. It's... It's... You know, I appreciate a good sense of humor of a little like South Parkian nature or like little immature but intelligent humor. So yeah, I mean, you gotta break it up sometime, right? everything can't be always serious. You know. Yeah, yeah, like you need a laugh.

    You need to be stupid every now and then. I would love to come across a bandit, Yeah. but it's also hard to find bands that do that sort of stuff that are also good. Yes, it's like you try and have this stick and you're not very good at it. There was a DC band called Hot Charlie and the one thing I really remember is like being in love with Uncle Jesse from Full House and like, you know becoming straight-edge because they fell asleep at a party and then they got well mistreated So You know God. Yeah, I mean, it's just...

    Yeah. It's one thing to be funny, Yeah. it's one thing to be funny and good, though. Yeah, it's just... And every scene... Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. And every scene has that point, And the other thing is like, know, it also goes to speak like, I can listen to a good song over over again, but if the song is purely a joke song, sometimes a joke just gets, I'm done with it. Yeah. know, know, Dead Milkman, can usually handle almost anything, even if I've heard it a thousand times.

    But like, not every band can give me a joke song that I wanna hear the joke. Right. Right. I think like it's like Dead Milkman and maybe Mojo Nixon over and over again. for me are probably... Yeah. Yes. I mean, I think solid right there. Like... Yeah. Yeah. That does it. Yeah, man. So, all right. So what you got coming to happen in 2025 that you're most excited about? God, it's been kind of cool. Cause this is the first year I feel like bands are coming to me to put stuff out. really?

    As far as things that are in the works. So this Alpha sub band I mentioned that I'm just wrapping up their album remote. Yep, I'm going to check them out. It's on my list. Yeah. I'll send you a tape. That's literally the, I put out a tape for him before to try out tapes. That's why I put it out and I decided I didn't like them. hopefully work on Chemical X again. There's a band from Philly called The Membranes that I'm gonna help put their record out on vinyl.

    Okay. And then, you know, the compilation. And then see what happens from there, you know? And honestly, just seeing, meeting new bands, that's what I'm really stoked for, is just like seeing who's doing what, how they're doing it, and just hearing what it all sounds like live. That's awesome. Well speaking of that like and this is the not in any way to put you on any sort of a spot but if you choose to do a collaboration with someone and I have a concept called live and dead where it's live on side a and studio on side B we could always collaborate together and I can handle the live side and you handle the studio side and we would have this whole like you know if so if you have that dude I would actually be down for that.

    If you wanna do that as the compilation I'm talking about, sold. that'd be dope Yeah, let's do it. Yep. Yeah, Yeah, let's make something happen. So man. I'd be super stoked on that. Yeah, I'd be 100 % about that. Like, cause like I said, it's just, this shit's a lot of work. Yeah. It is a lot of work and like you know and I try to send you was like I have one person like when I send people my like proposal I like I am Mm-hmm. a one-man operation I am doing this not to make money Yeah, and then. but because I am a history teacher who believes in documenting the scene I love the way I love it most live I put out bands that don't tour because Right.

    I like the band not because I think I'm gonna make money on them Yeah, and I think that's something that is so lost. Like this is stuff that we all do because we fucking love music, you know? That's what it all comes down to. And that came across to me, like just our communications that we had and just the records. So, all right, I wanna ask you, if you have a little bit more time? All right, cool. I want you to tell me a little story or something about every Yeah, totally. one of the albums that I bought here.

    Remember about the band, all right. So, tell me something about Assemble. I got the Assemble record. Tell me something about them. So that was, so you know, Matt Chuck. So we were trying to get that rushed out Yep. as quick as humanly possible before their drummer that drummed on that album had his first baby. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Tim, right? Yep. He's amazing. yeah. And he was a fucking beast, man. And, yeah. You can tell he loves like Travis Parker.

    Yeah. He's all over that. But solid dudes and like, Yeah. the other thing that, Matt, Chuck, I'm gonna go with Matt. Really good at printing shirts too. He's really good at, he runs Do It Now shirts with Johnny Douglas. Yes. Yep, yes. Yes, we used to be in the ghouls, but now as in Doc Ryan. Yep. And KD Cigarettes, who you should check out as well, if you haven't. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, check that out. that's easiest thing I can tell you about that.

    That is the fastest we got together and put out a record to be pressed. Yeah. Did you do like through song with merch again, like super quick? Well that was, yeah, that was through Solid Merch. And I think we got it all together in like eight weeks. Like shipped out like to my door from the day I sent it to them. That's astounding. Dude. Precision Press also does express shipping now and they actually allow some flexibility on covers, on covers for the vinyl.

    So just so you know. So because that's, ~ really? Good to know. that's who I've been using consistently largely because of their customer service. It's just absolutely phenomenal. It's like top notch. So I've been really impressed with the shit they do. I've actually been, I was actually thinking of going, there's a plant 15 minutes from my house called Softwax. And I was kind of eh about it because they're, Okay. like I didn't hear anything about it and their pictures of what they did kind of, I think they're trying to like rebrand and kind of get their, get a little bit more of a footing on things.

    So I was gonna maybe hit them up and see what it's like, because at least I'll save on shipping if anything. Yeah, you would say my shipping. was like also the number you're ordering if you get into like the 500 realm My buddy runs furnace pressing in Virginia, and I know it's just bought by Metallica, but my buddy is a he's a good trustworthy person So alright, solid. so Let's see here the Jaelyn record tell me about this So their guitarist Steve, I've been friends with him for years. He is the weirdest person I know. I love him to death. I his girlfriend, Jaylen.

    And they basically approached me and they're like, hey, we wanna do something that doesn't fit in with anything else you're doing. Would you wanna listen to it? It doesn't, It does not. It does not. and that's fine. I don't wanna be fucking pigeonholed. Life gets boring if you just do one thing over over again. They're like, would you mind checking it out? and if you want to check it out, would you mind putting it out? And then we went through all of that and then a couple weeks before the release show, the drummer and bass player quit.

    And I was like, Yes. They're now playing, I think they have a full lineup again. So we're gonna try and do an actual release show sometime in 2025 for them. Okay. I brought them up to Troy and it wasn't it wasn't a bad show but it was not it was unfortunately it was it was my least attended show that I've done since I've been here but I'm not not not because of them. Troy's a very much a hardcore town and Mm-hmm. I usually have at least one hardcore band on a show, know, Tough Guy Hardcore.

    And I did not. Probably because I didn't inherently think that it would fit with Jaylin, per se. But great record, great people. Yeah. And someone in that band who also played in a different band, also slept in my house. So, we're literally at the bar. And Steve... I was gonna say Steve, the guitarist, and what I was talking about, was also into ghouls at one point. then that's the person who slept at my house because the ghouls have slept at my house before.

    So, there you go. There you go. That's what happens. The last time I played Philly, one of the dudes from Void Control, you remember Void Control? Yeah, yeah. they were like, I slept in your apartment in D.C. I was like, you must be Void Control. You're the only man that ever slept in that apartment. So was like, That's awesome, man. That's awesome. apparently a lot of people in Pennsylvania have slept in my house. Dude, thank you for helping everyone out, man.

    For real. Yeah, well that's how you're supposed to do stuff, right? Alright, 13 cavities. I know I told you how I met them, but tell me your story of them. So it actually was originally supposed to start with a split with another band who I'm not gonna name because the somebody in the our band got Okay. Did some touchy stuff so but at the same time after I started talking Yeah. to 13 cavities And I played with them like once or twice at that point But what once we really dug in started like talking to him like we just do a full length and fucking go for it And I love them.

    See you! They're three completely different personalities of people Like Jason is a super normal down to earth person. Max is just a really quirky character. And Ash is a bitch and I love it. She's an asshole, she likes to push buttons. The love her to death, she's great. I'm very grateful for them. They came over to my house, we ate pizza and just hashed out all the details and I was like, yeah, we should make this happen. Yeah. that's awesome. Yeah, she was trying, I bring it up, she was just joking around, she said something about bashing teachers or reading, and I was like, that's me right here.

    And then she started bashing comics, like, my dissertation is how to use graphic novels to teach historical empathy. I was like, are you just fucking coming at me? Like, what's the deal here? Yeah. That's what she does, man. She just finds those buttons and she pushes them and like, gosh, It was hilarious. she's so good at it. She was. It was great. like there were families. I think we already talked about Chemical X. So that's that those are the four records I have.

    So dude, you have good choices in music. well... Dude. I locked out, man. But like, ~ you know, it's just one of those things where I really was like, shit, the other thing is too, is like, when I put out record, I immediately hop on trying to get the bands on board, because I know that they're really fucking good. And I'm like, someone's gonna do it, Yes. might as well be me. A question for you, since you did your, you do so much work with comics and everything.

    Favorite graphic novel of all time? Well, that's a difficult question, Are we talking non-fiction graphic novels for the history teacher? Are we talking graphic novels that are more the superhero base that most people think about? I don't think you have to be narrowed down to the superhero base because man, there's lot of people doing creative stuff in comics right now. Like I got into Sweet Tooth, which is, There are. Yep. know, Sweet Tooth was great.

    I finally got around to reading Akira, like all fucking sick. That artwork is beautiful. Cura's fabulous. Classic. It's absolutely beautiful. I'm an Alan Moore fan, Great stuff. so yeah, Yep, Watchmen all day long. Yep, all day long. Watchmen's great. You know, it's interesting. It's hard for me to say, like you said that, of course the first thing I think is like the current one that I'm currently reading, which is about George Washington's gay general, Baron von Stubben.

    So I used to actually bring him up in classes when I was a history teacher and... Ostensibly, was a gay general who was kicked out of the German army and he came and without him to give discipline and structure to Washington's army, then the army would have like never figured it out. So technically the American Revolution owes itself to a gay German general. Baron Bont- or Bont Stupidies? Baron von Stubben, yeah. So, I'm gonna look into that, because that sounds dope. it's a great book and in it they even like, you know, it's the people who wrote it are not historians, but they admit that and they go through the process of trying to research this, because the rumors have always been there.

    Like, you know, that this guy was... you know, definitely a non-traditional sexual orientation. And it gets difficult when you get to that sort of background, because people will say, ~ Lincoln was gay because he used to sleep with his assistant. like, well, traveling lawyers always did. Well, look at his letters. It's been so long since I've had you in my sight and felt the warmth of your kindness. It's like, men tended to write that way to each other back then, too.

    So all right, everybody. Thank you very much. Thank you Tim. mean the stuff you shared your label. It's amazing Everyone should go check it out Phameless records. I'm gonna put all the information in the Information for the show. Thank you for everyone for being here. Once again, this is a DCxPC Live supports the scene and in a moment I'm gonna go ahead and close out with a track from one of Tim's favorite bands that he wants me to play to end it with I'm gonna go weird here.

    I'm gonna go with the song Braces by the band Friend. Only because these guys really helped me jumpstart doing what I was doing as far as getting all these newer releases out. So. Check them out, they're the that kept me from, you know, kept me going into this and really reinvigorated my wealth of wanting to put records out. Fuck yeah, you heard it there from Tim. thank you all very much and have a great night.

  • DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support — Don Zientara Transcript

    Note: This transcript was cleaned from auto-generated captions for readability. Speaker labels were not included in the original caption file.

    Welcome to DCxPC Live Presents: Scene Support. The podcast that highlights the unsung heroes of the music scene. The recording engineers, the show promoters, record labels, graphic artists, photographers, zine writers, sound people. You know what I'm talking about. All those people that are not in bands. I'm your host, Scott Pasch, owner and operator of DCxPC Live, a DIY label documenting the live hardcore punk, ska and metal shows on short-run vinyl. I have 30 years of experience playing in hardcore bands in DC, Florida and New York, as well as booking and promoting shows. And I have had the privilege of working with amazing talent in this scene. Joining me is my guest co-host, Joshua Dobbs of Danger Room Recording Services down in Orlando, Florida.

    Josh has over a decade of experience recording, mixing and mastering bands in the local scene and beyond. And our guest today is the legendary Don Zientara of Inner Ear Studios in Arlington, Virginia. He has shaped the sound of D.C. hardcore, working with bands like Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Scream, Fugazi, and countless others on the Dischord catalog and more. His contribution to the music scene, including his own work as an artist, is immeasurable and it is beyond an honor to share and hear about his insights and his experiences today. How you doing, Don?

    I'm doing just fine. And all that stuff you mentioned, I didn't know it at the time. And that actually gets to my opening question. Look at you. It's like you're reading my notes, Yeah, I can see them there. They're pinned in the screen behind you. What? Also, he's not an unsung hero. This guy is a legend. So he's not an unsung hero of the scene. I hear you. I hear you say that. I'm honored. You know, we are the ones that are honored. Absolutely. So this wasn't like. I've listened to podcasts of you with you over the years. And one thing that always strikes me is you, your humility. You're always like very down to earth and very humble. I thought that was very absolutely. Yeah. I'm probably the most humble person in the world. It takes a humble person to say that.

    Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So here's the thing. Like you didn't know what you were getting into when you did like Slicky Boys and Teen Idols and going on from there and I know you're humble, but like it seems to me growing up in the D.C. area that like maybe Dischord Records wouldn't have even existed without you. Like you provided them a safe place to record reasonable rates and treated these kids, which is what they were at the time, right?

    As actual musicians and gave them that sort of grace. Like in context, as I said, you know, earlier before the interview started, my label wouldn't exist without Josh who recorded so many of my first albums as mixed, mastered and touched. virtually all of them except for like three. And I just want to know, like, do you, what do you think your role is in creating, discord in the D.C. sound in a humble way?

    Well, in the most humble way, of course, I think we both benefited tremendously by our relationship together. It was, it was something that we both needed. had different things. And I provided them with things, they provided me with things, and we both sort of grew up together as it were. So it was really, I am very grateful that they're around. I don't think I could be around without them. And you know it too. It's just that they were a launch pad for a lot of the bands that were up and coming, and without them, those bands probably wouldn't exist or would quickly die out. No, and I get that. it sounds like you're saying it's like almost like a symbiotic relationship where they provided you bands and you provided them that sort of safe place to record.

    Yes. Yes, exactly. Did you record other bands outside of this court a lot during that early time too? Or were you getting inundated by what they provided? It I did. record other bands. Not a lot of other bands, but I did because basically my bent was towards more popular sounding music. the punk music had interesting elements that I enjoyed and then I tried to shape in a way. But I was more towards the pop. Oh, it's tough to define these things, pop alternative folk, folk rock types, the leanings. Okay. So is there any, is there any pop music that you like today?

    No. Um, well it's, I don't follow a lot of it. I mean, when I put on the radio, it's mostly, um, NPR or something like that. Okay. Like a true D.C. person. Well, yeah, there's A lot of the radio music that's going on is, for lack of better word, simply entertaining and nothing else. It's kind of, gets, you know, ventures towards music. Yeah, I think my biggest issues with anything I hear on popular radio today would be the sort of stuff where it's like nonstop auto-tuned on the vocals, where instead of being used to help clean up the vocals in the studio, it's now a special effect. that I just can't stand as a special effect. it's very contrived, very contrived in a sense. Well, you know, we're speaking generally. I hate to speak in general terms because there's always exceptions in there.

    And but a lot of it is just very contrived and it uses what others have used before and would work for them. So they think, they hear it and, know, well, I'm going to try that. And they do. But it sounds like they're copying. It's, know, it's it's not. It's not very good usually and usually it goes for immediate impact and there's no depth to it. Once again, we're speaking generally. Generally, you know, and I think on some level there's an issue with that in music. In any case, like I definitely lean towards that earlier side of the discord catalog, but I also recognize as someone leaning on 50 that not every band I've been in is like added to that. Like You know, we never went on to say we want to sound like minor thread or void or anything like that per se.

    But at the same time, I don't think we were inherently creating a new world other than just presenting it in our own different way. So there was some, some amount of like, I'm not creating something that's so outside the box. like, wow, what is this? It was more like they do a good job of pulling some elements together of the past. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm there's There's a case to be made for evolution usually works when when you the good stuff hangs on. But there is also a lot of bad stuff that comes along the way. Not bad, but just maybe meaningless or stuff that just wasn't, you know, is meant to be go up and come down very quickly. Very true. Very true. You know, so in some of the things I've heard and read in the past, you've done all these discord releases, you recorded them live.

    Would that be accurate? What do mean by live? Josh, can you? Just with all the bands, with everyone playing in the same room. And like, just heard Ian McKay do an interview about the Out of Step record and he even did some of the vocals live. He said on the other side of the door. like, so that's... Not the, that's not the way people do it nowadays. That's for sure. Yes, that's true. it was, the instruments were almost always done live, except for any kind of guitar overdubs, vocal overdubs and things like that. And, occasionally I would do the vocals live too. And a lot of times it was just a matter of time. You know, I was working full time, um, during the 70s, late 70s, early 80s. And we had an evening to do sometimes four or five songs.

    And we had to get them done. Now, because of the limited track count, it was easier because you filled them up. OK, it's time to go home and go to sleep. That's not it. But it was done fairly quickly. part of it, too, was that Dischord had a budget. and that had to be taken into account. I was trying to explain the bands that they're better off trying to record all live so it just feels like a practice to take some of the pressure off. But a lot of the younger people, think that you have to just go in and just play the drums and then you have to go in and add a bass. And I'm like trying to say like, this is not how all of your favorite bands did things. You know what I mean?

    That's absolutely true. It's hard. trying to explain it to them because for some reason that's the general thought is that you have to do things that way now. Well, I always start with performance. Usually people understand that, to get a good performance means you're going to get a better recording. I mean, that stands to reason. And how do you record better and how do you perform better is if you're more comfortable. How do you are you more comfortable is if you're doing it almost like a practice. Exactly. That leads us to recording live. There's way more energy in a band in a room together. Yeah, absolutely. I think every band I've been with, that's how we've always done it is live. My last band, was just in, we did a live recording in a basement for a tape with our buddies in RBNX and my bass player had never recorded live.

    He's like, oh, we should do this when we go into the studio for our studio album. I was like, yeah. It's better alive. I mean, if you have to overdub a little bit here and there, like playing together, eating off of each other, that's the way to do it in my mind. Yep. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. think we got three people who agree. I mean, mentioned budget too, right?

    Like that's one of the reasons I have a live album label. Not only do I like live albums, but like I can have Josh go and record four bands in one night. So in five hours, who go to a show, bring all of his gear out there, record four bands, and then at the of like five hours, I have a full set of four different bands that I can release on vinyl. That is far cheaper than sending four bands into the studio. Yes, yes, absolutely. Which brings us to the fact that you may hear more, let's call them mistakes or simple mistakes that may give it character. Errors are errors, but sometimes mistakes will work in a song. And there's tons of mistakes through rock history, you know, going back especially into the 60s and 70s. There's, you know, they left little things in there because they had to.

    There was no other way to do it. And that's the way people want to really hear things today. They think they want to hear fairly perfect songs, but they really don't. They want to hear a human song. They want to have some things that humans do. So how do you handle it nowadays? Like you're still recording, you're in your basement now, your place in, you know, your bigger place in Arlington, like closed up a couple years ago, which you handled that very graciously and humbly as well, from what I've read in interviews. How do you handle bands that come in and don't want to do it that way, that they want to punch in every instrument, do their drums, do the bass, do the guitars, do the vocals and like... Do you, is that something you work with or how do you handle that?

    I'll let them do it. I mean, why not? mean, once again, it comes down to how are you most comfortable recording? How do you think you're most comfortable recording? And sometimes these ideas evolve in the studio, but if they want to do it that way, I'm okay going along with that. I can do it either. I've recorded every possible way in the book and it's Also going back to the live recordings, I'm just jumping around here. Sometimes live recordings are not extremely fast. They can be. You have the capability to do that. If you go instrument by instrument, you're going to go slower. That's a given. But sometimes live recordings just take a lot longer to set up and to get sounds the way they should be and to get the bleed the way it should be and all that stuff.

    have to just have more factors to deal with. So it's sort of a mixed bag and you hope that it'll go faster. But that isn't the primary thing in your mind. You basically just want that good performance. I have a couple of little technical questions because I've heard you talk before about like the, um, the drum mics would pick up bleed from the guitar, giving it like a natural reverb. So does that mean you just, you don't filter out the drum mics at all?

    You don't high pass them? You just let it all ride? there's no yes or no to that. First of all, I have a lot of the times on say Tom mics. and the snare mic, I'll use a hypercardioid. We're getting into, you know, your language here, Josh. That's why I brought him on. I'll use a hypercardioid when it's necessary. And I will try to keep out as much as possible. I want a good percentage of that drum, say for drums in there. But if there if whatever's coming in, I want that to sound good along with it. So I'll both keep out as much as possible, but let in if it's good. Understood. So do you use gates on the Toms ever or not really?

    Occasionally, but very, very mildly. Gotcha. Very mildly, very mildly. It's never the snare or kick, maybe the toms, overhead certainly not. And overheads usually I'll use ribbons too, which pick up a pretty wide area, but so they have to be looked at too and see what's coming in on them. And you have to remember that ribbons, because once you go into technical areas at 90 degrees and what 270 they're almost totally devoid of sound so you've got a really good anti bleed filter there I'll have the bass amp right next to the bass amp is basically about sitting about six feet from where the drummer sits but if you point that ribbon mic correctly You could almost totally eliminate the bass out of it. Yeah, I'm mixing one of your sessions now and it's cool to to mixing to mix the ribbon mics.

    So yeah, everything you track sounds awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you just recorded a band called 504 Plan. So I'm doing what's called a live and dead album with them where it's live on side A and studio on side B. And when I suggested they could record with you, they're like, what are you talking about? I was like, he still records. I'm like, Absolutely. How do we reach him?

    was like, all you got to do is call him or email him. He'll respond. like, really? was like, but we don't, we're just a bunch of kids. I'm like, he'll respond. Trust me. Yeah. That's history is working with kids. Yeah. Well, know, there's a, I was talking to Ian McKay about this a number of times. You know, people say, you know, how do I, how do I, how do I contact this guy?

    And he's in the phone book. He's, you know, it's easy to contact him. It's very easy to contact him. For those of you who have phone books. But he has a phone number and it's not that hard to get. And Dischord is out there and they have their website and it's quite easy. mean, it's enjoyable actually to get quick communication, I think is something that's kind of necessary in this business rather than. know, slogging along, you know, sometimes for days trying to get the right answer or figure something out. You were very quick to respond and like, you know, as I was telling 504. I was like, you know, I was in the D.C. area literally like 20 years and I never recorded with you. I'm like, you know, I always wound up recording with friends who are like in a band and said, Hey, I can record you in my basement or this, that or the other.

    How do those recordings come out, Some better than others. But I don't understand why I didn't like it. There was one band I was in in high school that continued on later and they actually did record with Don and I wasn't jealous when I saw the album other than the fact that they recorded with Don and I did. I was like son of a... Well that's basically how I started. I was in a band that needed a demo and I thought, well, OK, we've got the mics because we've got some vocal mics here. We need a little mixer. I went out and bought a Shure mixer that had basically volume controls and nothing else. And I had a tape recorder, a stereo tape recorder. So we recorded all music on one side, all vocals on the other. And that was it. Sometimes it's a matter of, hey, do you have the money or don't you have the money?

    It doesn't matter really at that point. Different times require different things, you know, now probably those recordings would be looked at and say, oh, this doesn't sound that good. So. Yeah, I mean, I'm one of those guys that like definitely thinks they're like albums like, you know, minor threat out of step or like circle, dress, group sex or like almost perfect records as far as how they sound. But I always wind up getting in bands with people that want to polish things. And that's usually not my thing. I'm like, no, raw energy is what I usually go for. So. Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Really. There's a, you know, if I went down and looked at every little detail, I could say, well, this needs to come up a This needs a little more at 400 cycles.

    Come on. Oh, that's the thing Josh and I always run into, right? With live recordings that we do that bands like, Oh, I like missed a chord or a note in the middle of the verse. I'm like, Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's. Yeah, I'll generally go in and fix it too. Yeah. Just fix it and move on. Sure. And it all depends. Some things you should forget about because it just doesn't matter. And some things, you know, if, if you can, if he can move on, that's fine. You know, I think that there's, you have to do this process in a fairly timely manner. If you spend too much time recording, and too much time mixing, you lose perspective on the whole project. That's a killer. Whenever you record your own stuff, does that take you longer than doing other bands?

    Oh, gosh, yes. Anything closer to home, you always wring your hands over and, oh, gosh, maybe I should have put a little more reverb on this or this should have been a little brighter or something like that. Yeah, it's hard to step back, but you gotta sometimes. And it's hard, just hard. It's very, very hard. Yeah, I hate doing it. That's why, but I got into the recording biz because my band went and tracked at Sun Studio in 2003. And this engineer just did not care whatsoever. And the final product sounded like it was recorded on a four track. So that's when I went up and I drove to New York and I bought a 16 inch or a 16 track, one inch tape machine and got started that way. But yeah, yeah. All because this this like we spent two grand on this recording where the guy obviously didn't care.

    He was just on AOL messenger the entire time we were tracking. So. Yeah, that's I. So many bands have come in with that same story. They, uh, you know, just having gotten results and you have to ask yourself, well, you know, why, why is that maybe, maybe you ought to, you know, maybe you ought to change things up, do things a little bit differently. Yeah. And that raises the question, like, know, you're, technically the recording engineer, but do you ever find yourself sliding into like the producer role and offering suggestions that go beyond recording, like anything related to like song structure or how to deliver, vocal line or anything like that?

    Yes. It may be not so much in early on just because I didn't understand the music, the punk music at the time. I was still trying to digest this stuff and get into my bloodstream. a little bit later on, I remember, you know, sometimes people are do things better and or sing things better when they're a little bit angry. I remember there's one session with Fugazi that were, know, it's a, Guy was getting ready to sing a song. I was futzing around in the control room. And so I just sort of nonchalantly said, okay, are you ready to, ready to sing your little song here?

    And he got so pissed and he did a great job. Pushing the human buttons. like that. Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes it's good to do that. Sometimes with, you know, any way you can. Humor usually works the best, but you know, you never know. It's like such a nice guy. You're like, I'm to get what I want by poking the bear. Right. Right. Right. There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe get a little bit of honey. Yeah. Okay. So whose idea was it in Stepping Stone?

    When the minor recorded stepping stone for the production to change as the song progressed, was that a happy accident? Was that intentional? Do you know what I'm talking about? Oh, sure. Absolutely. No, I've been, of fact, I just went over this myself and Ian were at American University here talking to a group of recording students. They brought that up. That was done. Ian has the best recollection. He's the archivist for the whole. lunch he has the best history and he knows exactly what happened and what they'd have met what time of day it was done but they had recorded a bunch of songs and then they needed one more I think skip groff said he needed one more skip groff was the the yeah he sold records here yesterday and today records and they said they needed one more song and they had recorded sort as a joke stepping stone.

    And you can hear it in the recording. They don't seem terribly serious. But I say that in a way that punks don't seem terribly serious. They still do it with all the verve that comes out. So they said, well, know, just take this and just mix it and we'll put it on the album. I just thought, know, remember at the time, we all thought, everybody, that people were gonna forget this very quickly. This is a stage, this punk music, they punk music, what's that?

    know, back in the 70s and 80s, early 80s, they did this stuff. Well, you know, so it was somewhat planned to be forgettable. So let's have fun. So I took a big, I had a big pot that was from a clam bake. And I put a pair of headphones in there and put a microphone in there. I can't even remember what. And that's how the song starts out with just the headphones coming through to the microphone. And then eventually it comes into the song and it evolves. But it was just sort of a lark, really. the first question I asked every band that comes in is what are you bringing to this that's new?

    And. If they can't answer that, it might be hard for them to record because you're just sort of regurgitating The old stuff. Yeah. And I get them, but I also get the idea of like the idea that this is just being done for this moment in time and it's probably not going to last the ages. You know, one thing I always found freeing about hardcore and punk is that the odds of making it as they would say in the music industry slim to none. So that means you can just do whatever you want because you don't have to worry about pleasing popular people. You can just get on stage or go into the studio and record what you're gonna like and the 25 people that buy it or come to your show, they'll either like it or don't, but you have, it's almost like freeing because the bar for success is almost non-existent.

    It's personally defined. So it's not the success of you have to sell this many records or do this. It's just, do I feel good about what I did? And did that mean anything to me? And did anyone... that a small number of people enjoy it. And if so, I felt successful. And that's always been kind of how I've guided my path and recording stuff and doing things. like, I'm not trying to be the biggest or best. It's so like you doing the thing with the stepping stone and then go to a lark is just fun. But it's like they could do that because they didn't feel constrained by the idea of success. You get what I'm saying?

    absolutely. Yeah. The of course, you know, looking at some of the history of this, this is a generated from Margaret Thatcher's England. And during that time, if you were young in your 20s or even in late teens, you had very little chance of getting a job. There was very little for you in life. there was a bit of a nihilistic look at society. And that transferred over into American punk. that brings up a question I have. So I know a lot of the early D.C. got they're into like the OI and sham 69 and bands like that. So whenever they first recorded with you, did they try to play you any of those kind of records to say, hey, this is what we're emulating?

    No. Great question. They didn't. They they basically, first of all, they basically came in. They had, you know, they had time constraints once again. So they came in and they just did their thing. They really, we didn't discuss it. We didn't philosophize over it. There were more doers basically. just did it. What were your rates back then? Well, originally at the very beginning, I... told them if you buy the tape, I'll record it. Wow. We're talking about quarter inch tape though. That's very generous though. But you just basically gave away your time out of kindness. Yeah. But well, but as Josh knows, you know, if what you record builds your reputation and it's, you know, it's not, you're not really giving it away free. You're, building your You're building your CV in a sense.

    Absolutely. I I think that's sort of the same way, you know, Josh and I both work together. We've been slowly building the things we do and people often say both of our rates are ridiculously low sometimes, but we're also trying to be helpful to those that are starting off and also get that sort of like reputational, you know, credit that you talked about. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, they eventually changed and But they were still pretty low. They were still pretty pretty pretty low in a sense and But remember recording I was recording stereo for a long while Just two tracks and the four tracks came It was yeah, they this was it was a totally different time Yeah, it was a time where Mackie was not around Berenger was not around and all those Things that you can give for the home studio cheaply were not around at all and I had to make my own mixers I You for a reverb we had to I built a mixer that had an auxiliary send in it that went into a twin reverb amp and I used the twin reverb for the for the reverb It was it was there were home studios were not catered to because there were no home studios basically sure sure So you were either a stereo buff, in which case, you know, you were playing records through an audio file stereo system, or you were a commercial studio and you can get the big mixers and you can get the big tape recorders at the time or eight tracks, but that's beside the point.

    Then they went to 12 and of course all that. you were just running your mixer into the two track, right? Splitting things up before it hit the two track? Yes. Gotcha. Yes. And eventually I got that we really moved up in the world and I got a few sure mixers where I could dedicate one mixer to each track. It was blue. There was there was an evolution that was very, very primitive. That's when I first discovered like how you said, like a task cam for track to cassette machine. And the first time I hooked up like a little Behringer four channel mixer to one of the tracks and I had all the drum, you know, four channels going to of the drums going to one track. That's when I was like, this is awesome. You know, I can actually see how this works now.

    And it was cool. I wish I wish I had known about like phase relationships, though, when I first started out. Is there anything that you wish that you would have known that would have saved you hours and hours of time? That was one of them. That was one. Phase relationships were something that was just, you know, was, no, yes, hey, sound is sound. I, you know, I didn't even check stuff like that. Because first of all, the microphones we had were very simple microphones. Some of them are Radio Shack mics. You know, a lot of them had, if they were condenser mics, they would have the one and a half volt battery in them. know, Phantom Power was, oh, forget about that. Yeah. So it was very, very, very, very basic and phase really didn't come into play until I started playing around with the mics and the tracks.

    And let's face it, the like Shure mixers or my own mixers, I had no way of changing the phase relationship. I had to buy one of those little plugs like a shotgun cartridge from Shure that changed the phase in it. It was just something totally outside of the realm. even, yeah, and the rooms too. You just didn't take it into account what the rooms would do because you have the room you're gonna record in and that's it. You don't think about acoustics a whole lot until you really get down into the game. Then you do. And you realize you should have done it earlier. What was your, so when you used to record at the 930 club before it was the 930 club, what was your live setup like back then?

    First of all, we didn't record that. just did the sound. okay. I thought that you recorded there. Got you. No, I didn't. It was just the sound, but it was basically high impedance microphones running through. I put together long snakes from the stage to the, uh, the soundboard, which was towards the back. which lost a lot of the high end of things, as you know, probably. And we ran through, think, something like a custom mixer. The K with a K, the custom, like the amp. And that was it. they had, the Silky Boys had column speakers. Column speakers were very big in those days. And that was the sound for the place. It was a... It was not well thought out, not well budgeted for sure. Have you ever recorded anybody live like at a venue?

    Yeah. Actually, a Slicky Boys we did, I think was the separated vegetables was done live. You can, you probably know better than I do, but it was done at a high school where they, they asked to use the gym where Kim Kane was working and we recorded live on that was two tracked also. all music one side, all vocals on the other. In a gym with those acoustics too. In a gym, yeah. There's a young band I've been talking to. I've already recorded them twice. I feel like I already had like they should trust me, right?

    And then we're talking about doing a studio session and I was just like, well, where do you practice? I'm just going to come to where you practice. they're like, well, we actually like to do it in a recording studio. I'm just like, well, you know, I don't want to pay for the overhead of that. myself so I'm just like you know I can make anything anywhere we record I can make it sound good but like I can't tell you I can't bring myself to tell these young people like oh you don't need a recording studio you know what I mean it's don't feel like place to say that to them yeah it sounds yeah it sounds doesn't sound good but I would first check out their place maybe it isn't good for recording you don't know But they practice in a venue around here called wills.

    like So it's definitely a bit big enough. You know what mean? you get a good sound in there. Yeah Yeah, I've never done a whole lot of external recording I did The when I had a four track, I know I just got a four track and or recorded Let me back up a little bit. being haphazard. I'm trying to arrange my thoughts. I was in a band and then the band broke up around 1976 and the guitar player went into a band that was more progressive at the time. It more alternative, you could say sort of alternative folk rock, whatever. And they wanted me to record them at this one place. And I recorded them live into a four track and the Slicky Boys were there too and they asked me, hey, could you record us if you got some extra tape?

    And I said, I did have the extra tape. So I recorded them. And that was my start off with the relationship with Skip Grof too and him bringing in the bands for that thing. But I did record four track live a lot. And it was awful, awesome challenge, you know, finding out what, you know, how to allocate the tracks and who was doing what. And of course, with the shitty mics to there's a, you know, you have a lot of bleed to either bleed or bad sound, one or the other. So I did do some of that. And now pretty much I do some choral work live, but that's it. I think that my. main point was is like the recordings that you got in your original basement are like still being emulated. You know, if you, you pick up a maximum rock and roll from like 10 years ago, you know, anybody's like, Oh, this in the record reviews, they're like, this record would have fit in great in the early discord catalog because people are still emulating the bands in your production style.

    So it's like the amount of like heaviness that you got in your basement is heavier than things I hear on recording studio in professional recording studios. That's why I want to be like, look, you don't need a professional studio. can do, you know, just takes like the right know-how and the right microphones. Yeah. Yeah. But you've said a lot right there. I mean, you need all those things in the right way. Yeah. The part of it was the fact that you're in a small room and you, you know, you have to acknowledge the fact you're in a small room and you have to work with it. because the room, you know, everybody says, you if you're in a, you listen to speakers, well, the speakers are the speakers, but the room is part of this listening experience too.

    Well, the same thing is true for microphones. The microphones pick it up, but the room is part of the experience in that. So you have to take that into account. So what you're hearing is more of a compressed sound, you know, just because it's in a box. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. I mean, it's like as a live album record label, I consistently people say, I hate live albums. They always sound like crap. And I'm like, you know, one thing Josh has shown me and I think showed a lot of other people because he consistently records a lot of the bands at this place called Uncle Lou's in Orlando, which is literally like if it's 900 square feet is 10,000. It's not big concrete walls, that sort of thing. But he's found a way after, you know, doing this several times to, you know, Mike Placement amps.

    you know how to manage it and it really comes out sounding as if you recorded it in like a solid, you know, studio, even though it's even though it's live and people are like, this is really live. I'm like, yeah, it can be done. Well, it's not always, but it can be, you can record well anywhere. If you know what you're doing is basically my philosophy at this point. And like, you know, Josh has shown me that he knows what he's doing, which is why I go to him all the time. Yeah, absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah, you but you've got to take care of the details. In other words, every band that comes in may sound a little bit differently may play a little bit differently. You got to take that into account and they may they you know, they all have their individual characteristics, which is great.

    So have you had to change anything since you moved back like so it's like 40 years of recording basement big studio basement. Like what has changed over like, you know, when you move back to the basement, have you, have you had to change what you do? I'm sure you downsized your equipment and all, but like, has it changed your practices overall? That's a great question. It probably has, but everything has changed. Physically, there was, right behind me, as you could probably see, there was a window going into the other room. And there was equipment, outboard equipment in the wall. was basically put in the wall. I put in a wall with the door on the opposite side that I could put equipment in, outboard equipment, because there was no room in here.

    I physically changed it. Because when I came back from the big studio, I had the advantage of rethinking all this stuff. But at the same time, I had a lot of things from the big studio. And I took all the microphones I thought I would need. I really cherry pick them quite well. And so I've gone down from about 120 mics or so to probably about 30, maybe even a little bit less. But they're the ones that work for me in this room. And the board I have, I picked out because it just has the best sound and it's easiest to work with. And some of the effects that are built in are actually good. And everything else was just hand-picked. mean, I just looked at everything very, very carefully because I know that everything I choose is going to have some sort of impact on it.

    I have a limited amount of space. So I wanted to pick the things that I'm going to use. Right now, I have one unit in here. It's only one rack space. But I haven't used them much. And I really have to think about, yeah, maybe I should get rid of this thing. You just not useful. But everything else, I've sort of utilized in one way or another. That includes microphones and everything. I've got a few amps. I pared down lot of the amps. I got rid of the twin reverb amps because I couldn't take carrying them around. But I picked out amps that were good. everything just seems to fit in this space and work in this space very well. So I've, and I keep tweaking it. It's a continuous process as Josh knows. It's, you never stop. You always keep looking at things and you know, maybe this can be done a little better or maybe I could use this a little better.

    Maybe I just don't use this at all. Maybe I should get this instead of that. How do you feel about, I know when you're at the big studio, you're doing something incredibly nice for bands and you were tracking like their drums on tape and then you were dumping the tape into digital. So what do you feel about the sound compromise without doing that any longer?

    Is it something you notice that every time you're mixing, you're like, man, this doesn't sound as good or is it acceptable? This is going to sound a little cruel, but I don't care. That's not cruel. You know, everybody said the most important thing is the song. So that means that the sound comes somewhere down the line of priorities and you have to use what you use. mean, if you're recording onto a cassette 8-track tape and you're getting good song down. Who cares that it's a cassette 8-track tape?

    Yeah, right on. Yeah, it just isn't that... I just thought that was really incredible that you were able to do that since they donated all that tape to you. Yeah, was... had lots of 2-inch tape, a lot 2-inch... There was some half inch from when I did 16 track half inch. That was a time. I mean, I went through all the stages of that stuff. it's, I'm not wedded at all to the sound of tape. I just, I would rather get a good song down no matter how it goes down. I mean, I'll record a lot of times my own ideas onto a little zoom recorder. You know that could be taken somewhere if you want and it's it just doesn't matter It just doesn't matter at that point You just you want the song and you want to you know performance of the song. Of course, that's the way it comes across That kind of ties into a question I have like what advice you would give to a band recording like their first album and it sounds me like you would just say make sure you have the songs but like would you like to add to that or Yeah, just the songs, the arrangement, how things are done, think about the dynamics.

    This is all pertaining to the song. And just work it all out so that you've got it all down. And then practice it enough so that you can forget about it and then do what you, how you feel it should come out. So make it, make it sound as natural as possible after you've thought about every little aspect and every little corner that you've touched. Do find yourself still recording mostly like punk and hardcore bands or are getting stuff from other like, you know, genres coming in to record with you in your basement?

    Oh, yeah. Yes, all kinds. For sure. All kinds. Yeah. I mean, it's a I don't really limit it at all. I I limit it only in a sense that I'm kind of sort of semi retired in the sense that I don't want to record. eight hours a day or 12 hours or 16 hours a day. I just try to keep it down and that works for me. That works. Have you ever declined a band besides scheduling?

    Like was there ever you wouldn't have to like name the artist or anything. But was there ever something like, I just can't be involved in this for some reason. Yeah. Yeah, I have. Usually I like to get demos from someone, you know, send me an MP3 of some of your stuff. And if. If I can't really add anything to what they have going on, I'll tell them, you know, it's, you know, maybe, maybe work on a little more or, you know, check out another person. I know other studios in the area. Other studios will be happy to take your money. Sure. Absolutely. You know, it's, it's, it's a hard thing. You don't, I don't want to be in a position. of just punching the buttons and then sitting back. Yeah, of course. Yeah, it just, it's, that's no fun at all.

    I want to have fun. Yes. Yeah. I always look up, like bands that like might need to record and I'll check out the things that they have. I'm like, is there anything I could add to their recording? And sometimes, you know, I hear like everyone's using this, like the same drum samples now for their kicks and snares. like, you know, maybe would they want to go the other route and have a more natural sound, you know?

    So I think about like, trying to suggest that sometimes to people, but it's, it's hard. feel like everyone, a lot of the, a lot of the rock bands sound like they're recorded in like this tin can where all, where all the drums sound the same. So it's hard. That's another thing. feel like it's hard to, break through to people. Like not everything has to sound the exact same out there. Yeah. Yeah, and that's a fine line to walk because you want it familiar to the listener, but you don't want it familiar, too familiar where they say, oh, this sounds exactly like samples or a sample snare or whatever. It's got to be a little bit different. this is looking at historically music. You see the bands that have really progressed first of all they've got good stuff they've got good material and got good content, but they they catch your ear and then they move in with a little more experimental things and they get then they pull you into Seeing some of their weirder stuff Bands that start out very weird at the beginning usually don't last though.

    There are some exceptions Experimental you've ever gotten in the studio That's one of the Scott's questions, not one of mine. Just kidding. I'd be that way. think I said creative. Yeah. Yeah. Creative or there's experimental in a lot of different ways. Yeah. Happy flowers come to mind. Do you know the happy flowers? I'm heard them. Okay. They basically set up. They were two guys. Actually, there were, let me start back there in Charlottesville. They went to school together in the band. And there were, think, four of them in the band. And they worked real hard. And they had some good songs, but they just were never recognized. I guess it was just a matter of they did things that were not, they weren't pioneers in what they were doing. They did competent stuff, but they just weren't pioneers.

    And I'm sure you know bands like that that just are I struggled, I don't know what the word would be, kind of generic or something like that. But then they graduated and there were two guys in the band, the singer and the guitar player. said, well, didn't work for us being following kind of the mainstream. Let's just go all out wacky. And so they came in and they set up a whole bunch of instruments and things in the room. and they said, let's mic everything here and we're going to go around and we're going to play what we feel like we want to play at any particular time during the whole process. they did some songs like that and they just moved around the room and there are mics on all the things. I think there's done an eight track, I believe, which gave me a little more play in the whole thing.

    But it was, it was very experimental from that point of view. The Happy Flowers. The Happy Flowers. Yeah, the Half Japanese was another band that was experimental too. They did a lot of weird stuff with their both with their instruments and the way they they arranged the songs and they would just do things on the fly and and see if it worked and some things worked and some things didn't. I have a friend that's a big metalhead and he wants me to ask you about if you remember recording this band The Deceased from 1968?

    absolutely, absolutely. King was one of my favorite people in the band, the drummer for the band. Thank you. And they, of fact, very strangely, I recorded them several things and then they needed to put out an album for an Italian record label. Now, I can't remember any of the details except that it was a record label in Sicily. And we recorded with them and they originally, they were very balky about paying for the whole thing. They originally were going to send money, it was a very Italian thing. So I had a project in Sicily about a year later. And strangely enough, the guy from the record label, came to their studio, we recording in, and just handed me a packet of money. it was very, very strange. But that gets away from the deceased music.

    It was very good. was very good death metal music and I was surprised at how Humorous all the players felt about it, you know, it wasn't it wasn't dirgey type of feeling they played death metal, but they played when they When they finished playing it, they got it all out of the system and okay. Yeah We're happy guys. That's all you were. They were. Are there any bands that that you recorded their stuff and then you heard their later albums, maybe that they didn't record with you and you're like, I could have done that better. Like, let's say when when Bad Brains did the album with Rick Okasek, like, I think if they had done that with you, it have sounded like infinitely better. You know what mean?

    stuff like that. It's all about opinions, of course. I don't know about better, but you know, it's just one person's viewpoint. mean, obviously the band signed off on it. So it was somehow it was there. They liked it. They liked it. So it's I, you know, I can't really judge how another person handles it. I can't say my way of handling it's better. I could say is you know, I may have handled it differently. Not, no, not bad or good. And, and two guys, pulled that the plug on the album that, uh, Albini recorded, you know, had to go back with, Don. Well, yeah, they did. Um, and they're looking at that. That's a complicated situation too. We are, we mixed a couple songs from that. I've got them all here on, on digital and, um, we've mixed a couple.

    The problem was with Albini's mixes and the recordings. I don't know, they just didn't have enough... They just didn't have enough character. And you don't know if it was the recordings that didn't have enough character or the performance or what. Yeah. So we... I know that he felt like he'd kind of messed up on that one. I've heard him say that. Yeah. I don't know if he did or didn't. I mean, I almost feel like on some level it's like the same that there's a relationship that creates the band chemistry. There's always that chemistry between the recording engineer and the band itself. depending on where the band is in their moment and where the engineer is, it could just be the wrong place at the wrong time. And maybe, you know, they could have worked together differently another time, but it just wasn't, it wasn't catching that.

    just wasn't working. They were on an intensive tour at the time. So it was very hard. But I got a feeling some of Albini's work is his best work is yet to come. yeah, that's interesting. It's you know, he had a he had a philosophy that I admire. Originally, they didn't allow computers in the rooms. because he was very pro tape. There's nothing wrong with tape. I like it, But All these things we got, all the things I see in front of me in the next room are just tools. I mean, if these tools can help you to get your song across correctly, fine. Use whatever you want. Play a shovel. a, use a, I don't know, use a telephone for a pick. I don't care what it does as long as it works for you. Sure. Faith versus Void, which side is better, Right. Now, there's a right answer.

    We're just curious if you have it. No, don't. Void was very much kind of adventure or touchdown, kind of like the metal a bit. And Faith was very much kind of, I would say, into the the straight punk at the time. It all depends on what you like more. Yeah. I think the answer is void. I told you, you like the metal stuff more. But not always just in that case, it just rips and it's different. And it has all sorts of stuff that like, just smacks of creativity. And it's like these young kids and they're mixing things together in a way that I'm like, I'm just trying to do what you did to Guy with your little song comment. I'm just trying to get the provocative answers out of you. That's all. Fine. Hope some more. How often do you go back and listen to any these old, I mean, you go back and listen to your old recordings at all and like, you know, any bands you recorded in the past, or is it like, you go back and do you do it just for enjoyment or do you like overanalyze and say, my gosh, I can't believe I did that.

    Yeah, it's very rarely just because I can't analyze it. I just, it's so much work listening to it and thinking, well, what is there? You know, I should have maybe put the 57 at an angle to this or maybe the, you know, something should have been something or too much reverb or too much of this, too much that. There's always second guessing in there. And there's always thinking about the things you did. I would rather take the song as a whole, but it's hard to listen to when you've worked on. It's just really difficult. I mean, I don't listen to the stuff I recorded as a band. So I kind of figured as an engineer, you probably have the same sort of thing. Like once I've listened to it and it's out, if it comes up, I'm like, I am not putting on my own band's record.

    And if it comes on Spotify, I'm skipping it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Ian says he never, never listens to the Fugazi stuff. They, you know, once it comes out, they don't listen to it. That just got me. It's out in the airwaves. Which is a good way to do it. In the big studio, I had a whole bunch of toys there and things to amuse yourself with and puzzles and books. And that was basically to get away from the songs. Because if you get too much of the song concentration in your head of what you're working on, it's no good. Get away from it a little bit. Then maybe come back and get away from it several times. It just the first time I recorded with Josh, I was shocked that he didn't want me to be there when he mixed and mastered. He no, I don't want any of you there.

    You're all just going to get in the way. I was like, no, I want to be part of this. It's like, no, you're just going to all sit there and like be reading and falling asleep and you're going to slow me down. And then I can't do it at my leisure. I'll send you clips and you just listen to them. And I was like, huh. And then he did that. I was like, you know, I actually appreciate the space of a couple of days every, you know, listening to it. versus having gone straight from recording and then straight into mixing and mastering and bludgeoning my head. I was like, I actually handled this a lot better getting it in pieces dribbled at me. I am kind of struggling with that too, because there's a, I've always kind of liked to have at least some of the members of the band there mixing, but I wonder if that's the best thing for that exact same reason.

    It does sort of, tie your hands in a bit because there's ideas I may want to try and other people are listening and you know they, what's this? Just shut up and sit back. And that's, so I think that there is something what Josh has there. It's kind of good to have people outside and then have them. Listen to it after that big of course that takes more time. You know you're listening back Oh, can you change the the second guitar or second guitar is too loud or the solo is too low or you know that stuff and Back and forth and back and forth and back one all of a sudden becomes a tennis match It does take time, but Josh does it give you a little space too because since you have to wait for the bands to respond to you Do you like back away from her or do you keep listening to it you're waiting for the bands to get back to you?

    It gives me a time to go and start another project. then by the time that they answer me, I'm usually, I'll have fresh ears again for it. Like, I feel like it's good for me to get about like 80 % of the way on a mix. And then like, and then it's good to maybe have some band members come in because to talk about the little, the little tiny, the little details that they're looking for. But I mean, most of the people in the bands don't understand like you know, the crazy amount of EQing and compression and things that have to happen. So I'm just trying to get them to look at the big picture and then the little details and leave all the middle work for me, you know?

    Yeah. Yeah, I didn't think about it too much because at the big studio, we had a board that had no recall. I did have automation. And the automation was recallable, but that's all. So I would tell people, we're going to mix this thing. But once it's mixed, if we want to go back and remix it tomorrow, it may be different. It may sound different. That's one thing I really like about the Pro Tools, just because I just do everything in the box now. Because I used to take pictures of my mixing board, and I would try to draw what the EQ settings were at when I was only in the analog world. And, uh, I know exactly what you mean. It never worked. never worked. It never sounded exact when I tried to like pull up, pull up the same mix again. Yeah. But, you know, I'm, I'm wondering, is that, is that good or bad?

    That I think was, was, it was bad. Cause I have to like clean, was, you know, cleaning the tape machine all the time, trying to pull up these old. you know, trying to remember what the freaking reverb machine was set at. It just, uh, yeah, it wasn't good for me. My brain is not that organized. So yeah, it's, I don't know. I still haven't answered it yet. I, kind of liked the, the fresh start to things, but then again, I, can see where you're at. Um, and I like, you know, the board I have now, I don't, I don't record. in the box, or I don't mix in the box, I should say. I have a mixing board that has recallability. And that is very nice and I certainly use it. But I will question it. I just question it. mean, you why not have it a little bit, you know, close to the same, but not exactly the same next time around?

    I don't know. I don't know. It's one of those. Big questions. Another question. How do you find time to actually work when people are bugging you about doing podcasts and stuff every single day? it's, it's a pain. It's a real pain. those podcasters. The only, the only solution I could think of is going to a different time zone. Oh, that'd be good. Somewhere like, uh, you know, China or something. Make it hard. Exactly. Yeah, it's it's I enjoy doing this. I mean, it's a I, I want to have people remember what was what happened and how it was done. And hopefully, you know, just like, just like you learn through different processes, you know, both you have seen different processes and you think, well, next time around, you know, I'm gonna do it like this or not do it like this or change this a little bit and make it a little bit different and it'll come out better.

    then it's, so I want to, I kind of want to tell people how I did it and what some of the mistakes I did make so that they could do it better when they do it. You don't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. What would be your, if you don't mind, what are your like most crucial mistakes? what's the thing like, Hey, I really want to let anyone know that's going to get into this. This isn't the mistake I made that I wish that haunts me to this day still. One of the technical things is like what Josh meant phase. I mean pay attention to phase It's a very big thing as far as the whole sound In terms of just sound recording pay attention to your diplomatic skills You know working with the bands It is the hardest part but it's so crucial I mean the band will play a whole lot better if if they knew that you're like the next member of the band.

    It's just very, it makes it much, it's very important, just very important. What else? It's hard to think about. I'm sure I made some of them along the way, bunches of them, dozens of them, hundreds of them, but usually it's technical stuff. And when you really dig into it, you know, it could be something so mundane is just picking out the totally wrong microphone for something and putting it the wrong place or something like that, or, recording in a sequence that's not, uh, that shouldn't be the way it is. You know, people want to do their background vocals before they do their main vocals, things like that. Okay. Maybe wasted a whole bunch of time. There's just things like that, little things. But usually it's these little things that pile up in recording.

    Let's face it, the song is made of a lot of little things. OK, I got one for you. So the session I just got from you, 504 Plan, I noticed I was like, there's one guitar in here. like, Did they record a second guitar? And then I even texted you about it and you're like, no, it was just one guitar. And I was like, of course there's just one guitar. He got all these bands that sound amazing with just one freaking guitar. You know what I mean?

    So it's like, that's one of those things where there's just, the younger generation thinks that, you know, there has to be like 50 guitars on everything. And like, but meanwhile you listen to the first minor threat. EP it's freaking it's just one guitar track right? Mm-hmm yes yes remember they haven't sent the rest of them to you you only have one song and there is there was one of the we recorded nine I think already and they're gonna come in next in a couple weeks to do three more. Oh awesome. There's another there is a song that has two guitars on it but it's it's not something I push I mean I mentioned it to them and I mentioned, as I mentioned it to every band, it's everybody knows you can do more pretty much if you want. More is always something that everybody thinks about these days.

    More, more, more. I don't think I realized when I went into the studio at 16 that we could double up guitar tracks. I had no concept that that could be done. So, I mean, I was 16. I didn't understand how the studio worked in any way. I'd never been in a studio and I'm a drummer. So I basically have no technical knowledge whatsoever. I know how to hit things. You're a drummer and I, I conceded that, know, I should be on this podcast. I'm hanging up. Classic. Uh, but yeah, but the, like the guitar, everyone talks to you about the guitar tone. It's just like, you know, a cranked up Marshall, probably the 57 on it, right?

    It's well the what did she use Scout used a it's a hot rod deluxe fender hot rod deluxe. But we basically you know we talked about volume and stuff like that and I want them to to get the volume that they have where it sounds good to them. Yeah. And if it sounds good I don't care. I don't I very, very, very rarely tell people, hey, it's bleeding too much into the drum overhead mics and stuff like that. just get it so it sounds good. And that's a good starting point. That certainly is a good starting point. And most of the time, quite frankly, I'll use just a 57 on it. There's no mystery. I had a sound guy tell me to turn my amp down to one one time. He said it was too loud for the stage. I was like, you got to be kidding me. Well, stage is different.

    Stage is different in the sense that it'll go into the vocal mics, which means they have all different problems. But it is a little bit different in that respect. Kind of, kind of sort of, I don't know. I kind of agree with it, kind of don't agree with it. I kind of like have a stage where you can, you you take the vocals and you amplify them and everything else comes out of the amps. What kind of a bass mic would you use on the bass guitar amp on the original Dischord Records?

    We usually record it direct and with a mic. Oh, okay. And that's the way, of course, the ones you got from the 504, I think we did the same way. You have a direct and you have a mic. And on those, I'm using a Audix D6. On the original recordings, You know way back in the 70s and 80s. I cannot remember what I used except it was inexpensive Mm-hmm. That was the bottom line at that point in time they were who I Just I can't remember what I had but believe me a 57 would be expensive Yeah, at that point just couldn't afford them That's crazy Because yeah, even on vinyl, you know, I just got the new reissue of the first Minus Ready P last week that they just put out. just like the bass sounds so amazing on vinyl, which a lot of records, you you put on and they just sound, there's no bottom end.

    But that's got it. Yeah. Once again, it's just a matter of letting the musicians get their own tone. You know, too many studios dictate what goes on and that's not good. That's not good at all. mean, we're, you know, why not let them do some of the heavy lifting and the studio can push the buttons when the right time comes and think about the more, the more important things where it comes to like the arrangement and you know, maybe, hey, don't do so many times until the vocal comes in, do only, you know, eight bars instead of 16 or things like that, you know, and Everything else is, think a little less about unless, unless once again, it, really is, uh, conflicting with something else. In other words, if there was a bass player that played like super, super loud, where it just, the bleed was just unbelievable.

    Yeah. I would say something. Do you ever find that like you have people that are reporting with you and you're like, well, I mean, if Don said to do this, he's a living legend. We're just going to do it and like they're going to acquiesce without any pushback. Do ever get that like concern that they're just going to like cave because well, why would we argue with Don?

    Yeah, I am. Yes. And I it. It's I don't I mean, it's not good. I imagine it's not. Yeah, it's not. I mean, there's you know, we're we're recording their artistry, not mine. So they've got to come through. As far as I'm concerned, and I know that's something that was something Steve Albini wanted. He wanted you want to document it. He wanted to document exactly what's happening. Not it wasn't about the engineer or the producer. It was about the band the moment. Yes, right and That's a very black and white idea. I mean, I think it has to be there's a lot of gray area in there. Like I said thinking about arrangements or hey, maybe that word, you know, this word sounds funny in this song. I'll say that if it does. then, you know, they could run with it or say, no, you're you're full of shit.

    Do you ever have to prep them and say, hey, please make sure you give me pushback on my ideas? Do you have to like start that or do you just wait to see if they are always acquiescing before you start saying, you don't always have to listen to me. Like, you have to like? Yeah, no, I, I doubt I really don't want to bring that up because it just gets them thinking about it and they shouldn't. That makes you really think about it. It's. You know, but I will, I'll shut up if, um, if they ask me about something where I think they'll, they'll take my opinion as gold. Gotcha. Yeah. I'll just say, well, you know, what do you think or what do want to do?

    You know, I'll just act like the stupid engineer. I messed up bad the other day. There's a band I worked with several times, right? And then they, uh, they just got a new drummer and they went to a studio. and they're sending me all the tracks and all the drums are the same length, the size of the files. But then it was all the other tracks were all like different lengths. So I was just like, oh, thinking that maybe they hadn't like synced them all up, right?

    So I'm like, hey man, I'm like, you think you could send me the tracks to all match to the same length? And he's just like, it's like, dude, did you even look at them? You know, check them out. They're all the same. I'm like, oh, sorry, you know. You know, people send me stuff all the time that has mistakes. He's just like, what do you think I'd really do that to you, man?

    I'm just like, I've never worked with you before. So now it's like, you know, what were you talking about? About band relations like starting off on the bed, bad foot. So now it's like, I got, I got to win this guy back, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's, that could be a hard situation. I mean, you got to question things if they technically aren't perfect. Yeah. But how do you do that?

    Sorry. I just had an album mixed and mastered by this guy in Italy because one of the musicians was it when he wanted to use this guy and they sent me everything on Dropbox and I was like, hey, these are just the individual tracks. When I do vinyl, I do all the tracks for side A as one single track and all the tracks inside B is like they're coming. I'm like, OK, I didn't know they were coming. All good. Yeah. I mean, they were unmixed. No, it's just like he broke them down into individual songs. Which is what I'll do if I'm releasing digitally, but I don't really play with digital. I only do the vinyl. And so when I send in the vinyl, it's usually like track A is every song on track A already is one song file when I upload it to the pressing plant.

    So he sent me all the individual tracks of track outside A and I'm like, I need this. He's like, it's coming. I'm like, okay, gotcha. How do they know when to index the tracks then? Just we give them song or time signatures usually. Yeah. So they separate the tracks in the vinyl. Yeah. I uploaded, they want each track like the time difference. So I do the song titles. That's how they do that. Yeah. Cause I've, I've had situations. Um, it's not exactly the same situation where people wanted the, the second song to start while the first one's going on and they don't know like where the, Okay, if I drop the needle in the groove, where's it gonna catch in there?

    It's not often, but it's there. I think in that case, I usually when I'm uploading into the indexing, I just put those two songs as one song. that way it's like, so they bleed into each other. I generally just treat it as like a single. But some people don't want to treat it as a single. Fine! So they want the second song to... index to start while the first one is finishing out. Yeah, makes sense. You're right. We're talking about weird, you know, these are not common things. No, common things. But you're right, though. Dealing with the bands is it can be can be the hardest part, you know, so that's yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Can be very, very hard. yeah. What was it like?

    So you're probably like in your mid thirties when you started working with all like the discord kids, right? Yeah, 20s, 30s. late 20s? Yeah. So what was that like dealing with that age gap? Like when you guys were like first getting to know each other? Well, first of all, we're doing the stuff fairly fast. I mean, it was coming on fast and furious. I probably think about the age gap now about how it was back then more than I did back then. It was almost like, just there was no, there just was no time to think about it, but it certainly was there. You know, I could have been their fathers, uh, for all they know it's it, it was, it was there. I didn't think about it. Maybe they did. I don't know. That's a podcast for some of them. But I mean, but everybody treated you with respect and.

    You know, you never really had to win those kids over, It was pretty smooth sailing. Yeah, was pretty smooth sailing. Yeah, I can't remember, you know, if any kind of conflicts that came up, it was usually within the band. Yeah, yeah. my God. Yeah, I've had it where like bands were like all like screaming at each other before. I'm like, I don't know if I need to be doing this anymore. Oh, yeah. There's a couple of times like that. Yeah, I mean, it reminds me a lot of like teaching middle school. So it's been, you know, I did that for 15 years and now I used to tell my students that being in a band was like being married to three people you wouldn't date. And now as a record label, you know, working with multiple bands at a time and then also promoting shows, I'm constantly like having to manage my customer service and to like find ways to appropriately and kindly say, no, that's firm, but doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.

    and stand my ground on issues that are connected to my wallet in particular. Yeah, mean, anytime you're dealing with artists, it's difficult in some way. And I say that with both of you being artists in your own professions. And I'm sure they feel that way somewhat, but you feel that way too. You've got to take it kind of easy and not offend anyone. Pretty hard to offend, I think. Josh is a little bit more rascable than I am. yeah. yeah. He'll text me and be like, dude, can you believe this?

    I'm like, it's fine, man. He's like, really? I was like, yeah, it's good. Don't even stress it. Wait till the text you get after this, man. You're done. I'm done? Come on now. I love you, buddy. Love you too. Thank you so much, Don. Yeah, Don. I think we've taken up all of your time that we need to, but I have to tell you that like, it's been great. And I'm sitting here thinking how my daughter is away at school and one of her electives could have been punk rock history, but she chose ceramic tiles because she said she lives with me and doesn't need to hear me in class. But I was like, no, if anyone's teaching, should be like Don should be in that class. Don should be teaching that class, mean. So thank you for, mean, thank you so much. You're quite welcome.

    It's, you know, I hope it came out. Coherent somehow because sometimes when you're looking back Your perspective is blurred. It's almost like you guys probably have a better perspective on what was happening and by listening to the records at the time You know, I certainly have my own ideas, but I have to say that your ability to recall as much as you have It's pretty phenomenal to me because you it just shows your care and attention everything from like you know, naming Scouts AMP to like knowing everyone's individual names and bands that you recorded back in like 1988. Whereas like, you know, I'm dealing with 35 bands with five, four band members each. And I would love to say I know everyone's, every band member's name of every band, but that would just not be honest.

    But you seem like you'd be that person that does. Like they really, and like 20 years later still does. No, you're wrong. Thank God. Oh, I can't live up to that. When I when I kept a calendar, you know, date books, as I'm sure Josh does, too, you know what you're going to be doing in certain days is coming in at what time and all that stuff. I had them from the I think the very early 80s, like 82. I kept them all and I was moving from the other studio. I gave them all the end. Oh, that's cool. I don't want him. mean, I don't care. You know, that's that's the past. I don't want that. I'm not a historian. And I'm glad he took him. But I just, you know, and he revels in that looking back. Oh, yeah, I remember we recorded on that date, you know, at that time.

    you know, it's great. OK, all right. Fine. Fine. You know, I'll just. I just, you know, I want to record and I don't want to look back in the past and, you know, run it back like an old movie. I appreciate that. But I appreciate you taking us a bit into the past and, you know, meeting us here in the present as well and sharing us what's going on. was all bullshit. know, none of this happened. Don died about five years ago. I'm getting morbid now. Yeah, it's a death metal. The first time I heard Minor Threat, it was on a, I bought this used cassette of the first two EPs and it was on this like totally like weathered 10 year old cassette tape and I put it in, put it in. It just sounded like the craziest thing I'd ever heard. And I was like, this sounds insane.

    I'd never heard music like it. And I just want to, want to thank you for helping get that together, man. Well, thanks. Thank you. Yeah. I really wish more bands would hit on something like that. Something new, guess is the only word for it. It's new and refreshing. Life-changing for me. So, yeah, for a lot of us, you know, me too. All right. Well, thank you again. I think we're going to close it out. And thank you, everyone who listened. This was a You know, Josh Dobbs from Danger Room Studios, my guest co-host and Don Zientara from Inner Ear Studios. And it's been a fucking blast and thank you all.